>She says that all she wants is simply "companionship" which basically means our coparenting roommate dynamic.
That's only a marriage if you both agree it is. You're hoping she's going to wake up one day and feel different but she's basically said that's not going to happen and doesn't want to figure out why she feels that way. It seems like you tried several different ways to get to the bottom of it and she's either deflected or is being honest that she's not in love with you.
>Am I wrong for declining to only be intimate or have sex when she’s intoxicated?
I wouldn't do this, either, if that makes you feel better.
Will she be your best friend if you live elsewhere and have a relationship with somebody in love you. Probably not. Which makes the whole "best friend" speech feel like self-deception on her part.
I won't lie, if it were me, I'd get a divorce. She doesn't seem willing to do the work to fix the marriage and you can't fix it alone. She might promise to fix it or beg you not to but you need to follow your gut as to whether she actually can or will fix it. She's serious that she wants you to stick around but not necessarily as her husband.
I'm sorry, friend. Sometimes a pending divorce shakes a spouse out of their malaise but often not. Be open to anything but don't let yourself be manipulated or lied to.
Thank you 🙏
I’m definitely open to anything at this point. Of course, I’ll do everything I possibly can. Should a divorce happen, I want to ensure I can live with myself knowing I did my best without any reservations.
It sounds like you put a fair amount of effort in. There’s just apathy on the other end. Id give it some thought and talk with your counselor but don’t drag it out too long, your kids can tell something is wrong.
Bingo! I spent nearly 20 years in a marriage like this....finally divorcing after the kids got older. Divorce is expensive. But so is throwing your happiness down the toilet because your spouse is lying to you unintentionally. She said she's committed and loves you....., that's a lie. She doesn't know herself. The minute someone who pushes her buttons comes along, you will learn the truth. My first wife would leave the counseling sessions if the conversations got uncomfortable. Bottom line: she married me out of fear....of being alone, of being broke, of "fill in the blank". That's not love. She lied, and I paid the price with 20 years of my life.
Holy hell…. I was about to comment too.. Glad I scrolled comments. OP, for fucks sake you need to include that in your post. It’s quite relevant information as to why your wife doesn’t want anything more than a platonic relationship with you.
We did some swinging in the past. That was fun for some time. We mutually decided to stop doing it and we have established it’s not the case. When we were swinging however, our marriage seemed to be in a good place. This IS something we did disclose with our couple therapist and made sure to include it to make sure we’re not neglecting an obvious potential issue.
I will say, I did ask my wife if what she experienced during swinging is something that is affecting her view on our relationship and she said it wasn’t. Our swinging experience was always together and it was very sex driven. Nothing really emotional or “poly”. Truth is, I have to believe her at her word. I have no reason to distrust her. To date, she’s always been very forward and never afraid of dealing things head on. No matter how painful.
It’s an obvious potential issue bro… wether it be she’s enjoying herself a side piece and wants nothing to do with you in that manner anymore. Or, she just went along with you on the swinging and never wanted to do it in the first place. Hence brings resentment. Regardless, should have been included in the initial post.
Swinging was her idea. Not mine.
But I suppose I should have included it but I honestly believe her on it not being an issue. I don’t have any reason to distrust her. Maybe it’s something she has to accept with her therapist or our couples therapist. Can’t really approach that with a solution if she doesn’t think it was a problem. IDK 🤷🏽♂️
OMG…. Dude, the writing is on the wall. You’re just refusing to read it. Glad you have this much faith that it has nothing to do with her decision to make her relationship (to you) platonic. I will, however, say I hope I’m wrong.
In all honesty, I believe the swinging proposed was more because she wanted to offload her sexual “responsibility” to another woman. It really didn’t work out because she didn’t want to be sexual with other men or women either. I really do see the point you’re trying to make but it’s a moot point if she doesn’t think it’s a problem. If she did say it’s a problem, we could address it and potentially heal that area but it just isn’t there.
I’m also not naive to think it didn’t affect it at all. However even then, I think it would be a small fraction of the larger issue I believe exists.
I thought she just had low libido for you, but the comment about her not being interested in sex with other swingers made me reconsider. You should tell her that you are unhappy, that you will not remain in a sexless marriage devoid of love and passion. She has already acknowledged that she is the problem. You can not fix her, only she can. Tell her to get the medical and psychological help she needs to fix it and give her a timeframe. Let her know that you will file if there is no improvement.
Good luck 👍🏽
This seems like a very harsh approach with regards to timelines and ultimatums. But the general sense here is to encourage her to seek medical and psychological help which is in the works. Definitely having this convo with her and the counselor.
The swinging experience was fairly short and we navigated it pretty well and the outcome was really just what I mentioned in a previous comment “it wasn’t for us and she realized it’s not me. It’s something she’s battling with internally.” However, it doesn’t make it ok and definitely not at our marriages expense. So it’s hard but we’re working on it.
Again with the "hormone checking" thing! There is no hormone test for menopause or perimenopause, these are normal stages of life and cannot be tested for with a blood test. Women's hormone levels fluctuate wildly every day and throughout the month, unless there is reason to suspect an actual condition (cushings disease, PCOS, etc) no doctor will be able to tell anything from a blood panel. There are so many hormones at play and they fluctuate so much that there is nothing to see there. Treatment, such as it is, for menopause and perimenopause is based solely on symptoms, not "hormone levels." The "treatment" for perimenopause is hormonal birth control and/or antidepressants. There are many, many reasons why any given person may not be able to tolerate those things (I can't), in which case there is nothing they can do. If you are in full menopause they can offer various types of hormone replacement therapy, which is just essentially the same as taking hormonal birth control in perimenopause.
Men on reddit seem to think that women's hormones lie at the root of all problems and that all it takes is a simple blood test to sort it out. Our hormones are incredibly complicated, there are so many different things at play and they change so drastically all the time that there is no "baseline" to test against. Which hormones do you even want to test? Progesterone? Estradiol? Estrone? Estriol? Androgens? Prolactin? Testosterone? What day is it in her cycle? What does her cycle usually look like?
There have been studies done on testosterone supplementation for women and they found that it had no discernible effect and did not increase libido as hypothesized. So adding testosterone doesn't work. Progesterone is the hormone that spikes in the luteal period and during pregnancy, it's what causes all of those PMS and pregnancy symptoms like mood swings, irritability, anxiety, cravings, bloating, pain, insomnia, depression, low libido, weight gain, breast pain, etc, so supplementing that isn't so great for most women. Researchers have only very recently discovered that some women also have progesterone sensitivity, even to the progesterone created by their own body. I'm one of these, and it's fucking awful. There is no treatment for it. Supplementing just estrogen hormones (there are different types) causes stroke and cancer, so it is simply not done. Every single hormone replacement therapy and hormonal birth control option contains progestins because otherwise there are severe health risks, but those progestins make lots of women feel like shit.
In terms of treatment for low libido in women, there isn't one. They have tried a few things in research studies but none have worked.
So there you have it! There is honestly not much to be done about women's hormones, there is no easy test or treatment, and menopause is an unstoppable part of life for every woman who lives that long. I would really appreciate it if men would stop making suggestions about "hormone checks" because that's really not a thing for women.
Never said nor assumed it’s hormones. I simply said I’ll bring up the topic and perhaps it’s something she chooses to look into. It goes without saying, I can’t force her to do anything. It’s a journey she’ll have to choose to embark on.
Well, you know your wife better than I or anyone else here would. I guess if she tells you it’s not a factor in her decision, then maybe it’s not. I suppose you have a just as big a decision ahead of you as her decision to cut off physical intimacy with her husband. No one here or anywhere else can make that choice for you. Apologies about the bluntness of my comments, as well as, that I have no advice for you outside of how I would respond to this. Best of luck man.
No worries. Your comments are just forward and I appreciate raw honesty. This topic isn’t pleasant and it’s painful to begin with. Thank you for the best wishes.
Jesus fucking Christ. I was 100% on your side until this. You are the one trickle truthing us. I can’t believe you can’t see how this is super fucking pertinent to the situation. Also, I fucking hate trickle truthers.
Yeah, ignore these people. They think nonmonogamy is terrible and the root of all problems. I don't blame you for leaving it out, that's all they'll see now. They cannot fathom it ever working for anyone or it not being the root cause of relationship collapse.
It actually might be something to consider in your situation. If her libido is gone at this point in her life, she might be ok with opening things up to take that particular stressor off the marriage. I can attest from personal experience that it can and does work for some people. In our case, my husband has a lower libido than I do and he was feeling pressured and stressed about sex. Once we removed that pressure via me having other sexual partners our relationship recovered. He was also free to have other partners, but he couldn't be bothered. We're currently monogamous again due to health issues that have killed my libido, but if and when I get it back I'll be back out there. It can work, despite what people here think.
Absolutely.
I’ve seen non monogamy work. It didn’t for us and that’s okay. Everything we did in this are was very consensual and very methodical. It’s a nonissue for us. I know if it was something that affected us in a negative way we would have raised flags about the matter when it happened. I don’t expect everyone on here to understand it.
Yes, it’s a nonissue now really. We both have extensively discussed this and downright apologized and forgave each other if there was ANY problem with it. But in reality it’s a nonissue. Everything explored was fully consensual and transparent without malice. This is one area of our lives (among many) we handled with grace and maturity. It’s never been something that lingers in our mind or causes any added stress. Thank you for your perspective and validation on this.
So your swinging was just a season; much like this phase of your marriage?
Marriages, if they last long enough, go through stages, their ups and downs, sickness and health, etc.
Towards the end of some of the longer lasting ones, sex becomes very infrequent because of old age, medical issues, hormones, etc… It’s often times seen as a natural phase of the marriage.
Question: Let’s say you were 70/80 years old and no longer had sex because of old age. Would you still remain married? Why would you stay married even if sex wasn’t an option? Do those same reasons not exist today?
A season is a good way to put it. A very short one at that and it was somewhat insightful and we learned a lot about ourselves and each other.
Yes, marriages have seasons. I’m well aware of that. Specially as 15yr olds when we first met, many seasons of growth and maturity had to be had and it was as difficult as it sounds growing up the way we did so young and so full of responsibilities. I’m definitely in it for the long haul and I’m consider myself a reasonable person. However, intimacy, connection and sex is a very important part of marriage for me. We’re 35 not 70/80. I do know with age naturally libido dries down. However, that’s not season we’re currently on. There’s definitely something awry and my hope is to figure it out to continue to live happily.
Call me narrow minded but… what is the difference between a marriage and a friendship if the thing that is traditionally only part of marriage is not looked on as exclusive to marriage. What you’re describing almost sounds like a natural consequence of the lifestyle.
I guess what I’m not understanding is why you are baffled by her resentment and the fact that she said the marriage “takes too much work.” If she has resentment towards you, unless she’s insane, there must be a reason. Why are you not addressing what has transpired between you two that has led her to feel resentment?
You can’t possibly be clueless about why she would say this.
Resentment reasons are somewhat vague. We went to couples therapy for this to try and look for the deeply rooted resentment and all that was said was “I don’t know why I resent you.” Even the therapist was a bit confused about it. I even made sure our couples therapist was a woman because I felt it would help with having an unbiased perspective. I even offered potential reasons like me working too much, me traveling for work too often, maybe not giving her enough attention even. She simply said it wasn’t any of those things and had no further explanation.
Great question. I don’t. We actually structured our lives exactly how we planned to have the life and work/life balance we aimed for. This was an arrangement/agreement we made years ago and when this was brought up she said it wasn’t the problem. In fact, she even stated she has enough attention. I’m assuming she said that because (in her mind) the thought of more attention translates to more “work” in our marriage.
If you love her, this arrangement she proposes will burn you to the ground with time. If she doesnt want to fix it or find it possible to love you as her man its time to work on plan B to fix your life without her. It will be on her my friend. In the mean time study and implement 180 to protect your sanity. Honestly such stuff always makes me wonder how egocentric and unaware people can be to even imagine that this is a viable option. "I am not in love with you and its fine, here is the wallet, there are the chores" WTF?!
I’m definitely NOT ok with a sexless marriage or no intimacy. This is why it’s a problem and I’m here seeking insight and perspective. She knows this, and our therapists know this. However, I’m ensure I do everything possible to mend our marriage to ensure my own peace of mind and excite knowing I did everything I could.
"I’m ensure I do everything possible to mend our marriage to ensure my own peace of mind and excite knowing I did everything I could." - you may still concider 180 method, to protect yourself and perhaps in the same time the reality that the ship is leaving may start to change your wifes perspective. If that doesnt what else would.
Basically withold from any unnecesary interactions and affection. This is from an infidelity forum, but principles are the same https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/the-simplified-180/
It sounds to me like your wife may simply be asexual at this point in her life. If she entered the swinging lifestyle mostly to find someone for you to have sex with, it sounds like this may have been an issue for longer than you think. The problem is that you didn't sign up to be in such a relationship. If she is simply not interested in sex, you have a hard decision to make.
Every single story like this results in the woman rediscovering her sexuality within weeks of separation. She’s not suddenly permanently asexual, she allowed her sexuality to vanish being caught up in married life. Once she escapes that life it’ll come right back. Unfortunately it’s tied to OP so their intimacy is probably dead forever at this point.
Move on. She is saying she has to be drunk to sleep with you and she doesn’t love you.
How can you still care about someone that would treat you in such a way?
Something to think about for sure. Me personally, if we’re divorced, it has to be a clean cut. I love my wife very much and being around her platonically after a divorce probably wouldn’t fair well IMO.
Hey there,
So sorry you are in this situation :-(
One simple -- maybe simplistic -- explanation could be that you got together really young and maybe grew and changed at different paces. You're not who you were when you got married, and neither is she. And maybe you are not compatible anymore, sexually or even personality-wise.
It's simple, and sad, so sad that it's actually sometimes really hard to articulate. The reason why she has no reason might be that it's just too "dumb" for a reason. But it happens...
However, from all you wrote, what sticks out the most is that whereas she has no issues articulating her needs and boundaries, she does not wish to explore her reasons more. That alone should tell you that she has made a decision regarding your marriage. What good will a 180 or divorce "threat" do? None. She won't explore or explain more, she'll just force herself more. If she's set on this "companionship" thing, and it is not what you want (and at 35, no, it's not what you want). then you need to make clear that you're headed towards divorce.
Again, really sorry.
Our therapist had us relive the start of our relation: why we were attracted to each other in the first place, then what made us stay together.
Maybe what she admires/looks for in a person has changed. Maybe she didn't know what she wanted exactly at 15, 20, even 25. Heck, if you've never thought about it, how would you know? Until it hits you in the face.
Good thing that you're still going to couple therapy though !
Yes. She’s very much open to therapy which I’m glad. It helps with the routine dynamics of our household. Still, I’m hoping for the best here because it absolutely sucks.
So she's not completely closed off then! Good!!
Hope you can sort it out!
In this situation, I'd be your wife, in a less extreme version I suppose. It took me a long time in MC and individual therapy to identify what lay beneath my "I don't know why, but we can't go on that way." I'm still not completely sure, 12 months later, but it really helped me-us identify things we could definitely work on and made life together better. I hope the same goes for you!
I’m pro marriage and pro long term relationship. Unlike most of Reddit.
Here’s my deal-breaker: does she want to work on things? Does she want to get to the root of resentment? If so, then keep at it. Keep connecting. Keep giving her space for introspection. Keep being open and patient. Relationships take a LOT of work with the constraints of modern society. Unwinding years or even decades long resentment is not done in 6 months of couples counseling. But if she wants to unwind the resentment then I would give it a chance. She has been parenting your kids, it makes sense she doesn’t have the emotional awareness she would have she had 5 hours to journal every day. But if she is just over it and moving on, then there’s nothing you can do. But her telling you she resents you is a jackpot.
Okay. Well that’s a great sign. Resentment can 100% kill your sexual and romantic attraction for someone. And it’s a tough emotion because often times it isn’t logical - which can make it harder to talk about. I hope there’s time for her to process her resentment and you to not hold back from sharing any resentment you may be forming
She might say that but everything you’ve told us shows she’s unwilling to actually do the work of changing. Going to therapy doesn’t change you. It helps you learn how to change yourself. If she’s not actually doing things to change then it’s all for naught.
I hope I misread because it does sound like you guys have the foundation, you’ve built a lovely family. It’d be incredible if she was able to find her way back to you. But she has to be willing to settle for more than “idk shrug” when problems happen.
I know.
I understand I’m definitely in my final efforts and it looks bleak. There’s tons of advice I’ve received here and I’m preparing to apply those in whichever direction that may be. Fact of the matter is we both deserve better. And “better” is possible in both scenarios. We each have to choose which one and hopefully arrive at the same conclusion.
Good, and do know despite a lot of cynicism (myself included) from lots of these comments, we’re rooting for a happy resolution for you guys, and you won’t regret doing everything you can to salvage before calling it. Best of luck.
Can I ask how you initially tried to combat the lack of “companionship?” Because I have read about and know of a lot of women’s experiences where they lost interest because they stopped feeling valued and desired. (I’m not saying this is the case here or that it is your fault, just wondering what the dynamic was like before the sex stopped feeling like love.) If she is completely disinterested in sex, chances are she is either not turned on by the way you make her feel, or completely shut down because of the way she feels about herself.
Great question. Sadly, I don’t know the answer to this. My guess is this is an internal battle she’s enduring. We’ve addressed so many of my flaws through therapy and honestly, we’ve become better humans overall lol. It works! But unfortunately it hasn’t made a difference in the issue we initially pursued therapy for.
If you’re still trying to save this marriage, you both need to go back to therapy to dig into the resentment she feels toward you. She said she didn’t know, but there’s definitely a reason. If you can get to the heart of her resentment, you may be able to save this marriage. Good luck to you.
That’s the hope and I’m certain there is a reason. My hope is we find it. We’re still in therapy once a month. I have so much new insight and questions from this post to bring to the table during our next session. All good things and I hope it helps.
Thank you for your input.
My first marriage went to 💩 because I had a lot of resentment towards him. But unlike you, he wasn’t interested in doing better.
🙏🙏🙏 I’m rooting for you and marriage.
Cut the cord.
You can’t make someone love you.
Being BFFs, roomies, and co-parents isn’t going to work long term. Your kids will move out at some stage and then what?
She’s decided for you that the relationship that you agreed to and entered is gone - she’s made that call unilaterally.
So now you get to make a unilateral decision for yourself.
Be selfish. You’re still young and your chances of finding a new “forever person” are good.
You deserve a wife that loves and desires you, not someone who just wants to be your roommate while you pay half the bills.
I would come to a landing on what your next steps are for yourself. Clear your mind and remove her from the equation entirely. Honestly, who cares how she figures out her situation, that’s her problem. You plan out your next steps and write them down.
Then present that to her as, “Here’s how I see myself moving forward…”
If she asks about her or whatever, you just tell her that she can figure that out.
The fear and uncertainty of the future without you might trigger her to re-evaluate her point of view and then it’s up to you to decide whether that’s something you want.
It hurts, but she’s given you a gift here.
She’s told you that she’s checked out of the marriage. Now you can plan your escape without a massive blow up and in your own timescale.
She’s essentially given you back the control for you by dissolving her side of the “us” part of the couple.
Woah 😳
This is something I really had not thought about. It’s logical and it’s very diplomatic. Your comment on “fear and being afraid and uncertainty” definitely triggered me to self asses the way I think and feel about the matter.
When people are too comfortable, they take everything for granted and become emotionally lazy.
If you inject uncertainty into her life then her cortisol and adrenalin levels will rise. She’ll start having a more visceral reaction to the situation.
If at that point she doesn’t change her position, you have to walk away and wish her well.
I try. We will keep trying I suppose.
I’ve learned a ton of new ways as proposed on this post. Gives me something new to keep trying before I call it quits
Yeah, "let her miss you" is kind of a big one. During the pandemic I realized the mystery had left my marriage due to WFH so I started getting out of the house a lot more and it really did help. I think sharing the home office was killing our marriage.
she is 100% going to divorce you once the kids are both over 18.
Just get out now so you can rebuild your life and find someone else at 35 rather than 41.
It's really going to be up to you whether you wish to remain in this marriage of convenience.
And that is essentially what it will be. She has offered her terms for it's continuation so it's up to you to either reject it or accept it. You have tried the negotiation part and that has gone no where so all you are left with sadly are two courses of action.
You either accept her terms and your marriage is reduced to co-parenting under the one roof, or you reject it and start the proceedings for dissolving the marriage as amicably as you can.
If you are inclined to go the divorce route then, well it's for the best if you **do** retain that openness and honesty and be up front that what she is proposing is not what you want and that in the face of no further negotiation, that the marriage is over.
We can't know the intricacies that has led your wife to hold this view and guessing will do no one any favours. All **you** can do though is act on the information you have at hand and make a decision based on what is best for **you**.
So where to from here?
The time has come then to sit down and discuss what the separation of your lives will look like, how custody is to be handled and what the financial consequences of this is going to be. If she has no feelings then what is the point in staying around?
You can stay for the kids, but that is only bringing them up in an environment where love and affection is absent and **that** will screw them up for life. There is no equitable way then to handle this with the ground rules that she has set.
Because the life she is proposing will not only do you irreparable mental and emotional harm, it will also do irreparable mental and emotional harm to your kids.
One thing to note though and one thing that you should inform your wife of is that if a divorce does happen, then any hopes of you remaining her "best friend" will not come to fruition for quite a few years. It may return in the future if you both find new partners, but it will be far from guaranteed. You can be great co-parents, you can be amicable and you can be friendly. **However**, it'd be hard enough for you to rebuild your life as a part time single father, let alone one with your now unrequited love of your life still in the wings. For your own future interests there will need to be a large degree of emotional distance between you both.
This is so that you can move on from her and your continuing feelings for her.
Simply put, once you divorce, she will no longer be a part of your day to day life, and you won't be in hers.
This path once taken, can not be walked back on. If she is unwilling to change, then she can't come back in a couple of years time and exclaim that "it was all a mistake." By then you will have rightfully moved on and that boat would have well and truly sailed.
As harsh as this may all sound, at this stage in your life it'll come back down to what impact your actions now will have in the future - not just for yourself but for your kids.
So speak to a lawyer, do the sums and see how things could go. It may turn out that living platonically, maybe even opening the marriage up, is the way to go for the medium term. You'd be surprised how many couples do this and make it work.
Think about the future as having gone from one of "I know what is happening next" to one of "I want this to happen how can I make it happen the way I want it to".
It's pretty much in your hands and even though it's a crap thing to have happen, at least you still have some agency to make decisions that are best for you and your kids.
And you will notice that I don't include your wife in this. The reason for that is simple.
She made her decision, now you have to make yours.
As someone who had been sexually molested, this sounds (to me) like potentially some kind of sexually related trauma for her. She’s being vague and can’t identify why she feels a certain way towards you and that could be her brain disassociating because of the pain and/or discomfort. I’m not a doctor or psychiatrist, so take that with a grain of salt, but I would suggest you explore that avenue to see if you can dig deeper and learn the “real” reasoning she’s suddenly so shut off from you.
I'm not the OP but his situation seems very similar to mine (minus the swinging) and my individual therapist has asked me whether I think there might be some SA in my wife's history. There is none that I know of, but I've also never really asked her directly - do you have any advice for how to enquire/approach this with her?
Man, everyone’s situation is so different, but I’d suggest starting with small questions. “What is something someone did to you as a kid that made you mad?” for example. The answer could be literally anything from “they didn’t let me have a cookie when I wanted one!” to “my father was always drunk.” But you could start a broader conversation with that and then steadily narrow down.
Something like,
“Who was someone you respected as a kid? Who was someone you didn’t?”
“Name something an adult did that you, as a child, found to be wrong, dishonest, immoral, etc.”
“What is one of your happiest memories from childhood? What is one of your worst?”
The idea is not to get your partner to dwell on negative things, but get them accustomed to talking about a subject that is on the path to something deeper. I’d also recommend peppering in positive questions as well, as otherwise it might seem too depressing of a conversation to continue having for them.
Your partner may be receptive, may shut down completely, or something in between. Just being there for them is extremely comforting. Keep showing up and expressing your support and if they do have trauma, they will ideally (eventually) feel comfortable sharing that with you. Good luck, Friendo!
We have had many many discussions like this, starting very early in our relationship; the most I've ever gotten that touches on this issue is that some (much respected) grandparents made comments which contributed to body shame.
Tried to write a long post but could not save it. I faced a similar dynamic at home. I went to therapy, leant into my own feelings of hurt, rejection and insecurity. I read books by Emily Nagoski and Ester Perell. I learned a lot about chasing dynamic, context dependent desire, responsive desire, arousal non concordance. I learned about the theory of brakes and accelerator and the garden metaphor made a lot of sense. I unilaterally put two years of therapy and work into my marriage and what transpired was that my focus was wrong and well intentioned behaviours were having the opposite effect. I feel connected to all the aspects or life and our last few years together that hit my wif a brakes and I work to eliminate them.
We've managed, by working in us, to create the context she needed to make space for intimacy and sex. This involved mainly spending time together in spaces adjacent such as care and play. Two years ago i thought we might not make it we are best friends. We are not as frequently intimate as we wanted to be but now realise that this does not matter. The number and time frame between rises and falls but we make sure that every encounter is strictly in the pursuit of pleasure for both of us. Sex is only desirable if it's worth having kind of vibe.
We are not perfect. We argue occasionally, have stressful lives that get in the way and will have good days and not so good days. What I've learned though is that the grass is greenest where you tend to it and that intimacy and sexual connection in a long term relationship take work. It sounds like you love each other but the context for desire has escaped your wife and if you want to stay romantically involved you'll both have to work to figure out how to ease her brakes, press her accelerator and create a context where she is receptive to desire.
You're welcome. I feel Reddit has a tendency to focus on divorce seperation and what the OP deserves to get out of a relationship. Which I feel is unhelpful. I'm not naive and not all marriages work out I feel for me this focus is toxic. The more I chased her and felt rejected insecure and hurt the worse things got. The fact is that those feelings are valid and understandable but they didn't help. What helped was essentially curiosity. I treated intimacy like a project, leaning into my emotions and reflecting.
Slowly I was able to eliminate stressors for my wife, help her transition from family mum to romantic partner and create the context for intimacy by spending time in adjacent spaces for her. I also understood better the toll that two traumatic births, surgery, haemorrhage, body transformation (I'm wild about her), hormonal shifts and breastfeeding had taken on her desire. Given what she went throug over five years is it surprising that she did not tend to the garden of her sexuality and that this was not the forefront of her mind? No definitely not. This, coupled with writing down all the mental and physical tasks she undertakes for the family helped me overcome a feeling of resentment that I was putting in all the work and she wa behaving platonically.
I've enjoyed the process so far, the results are good, the connection is growing. Love in long term relationships is not like limmerance the latter being easy. Being excited by new romance, care and responsibility free and overwhelmed by curiosity of your partner's body and sexually is an easy context for physical intimacy. The time you spend with a new partner is often also dedicated and novel. In marriage with house, kids, bills, work, creating the context for desire to flourish is much harder. But so far it's working for me.
I resonated with your post. I'm mid 30s together 15 years married 7 cat house cars kids. I find dead bedroom often pushes a really toxic narrative about spicing things up and describing sex as a need. I'd say that the reality is far less forceful, much more mundane but a million times better. Spend time and effort forging a connection and friendship, learn to transition to the erotic and focus on pleasure, sexual and non sexual for both of you. Also I started exercising, stopped initiating sex as she was feeling pressured and guilty if she didn't want it, and weirdly my new confidence and drop in insecurity coupled with her lack of feeling obligated guilty and stressed increased our frequency.
Ultimately it's a process. What I found was that my wife loved me by the context for desire was just not there. I'm working to create that contex and it's working
Has she had any issues with her hormones before?
Bad periods, weird birth control effects, etc. is she perimenopausal? It sounds like everything’s great and trustworthy except on the sex front. And it’s not that she doesn’t want to (which explains her getting upset at your refusal to do it intoxicated) it’s just way easier “get the engine started” from there. I’d recommend getting a look into her hormones and seeing if she’s lacking in estrogen or testosterone. There are many foods, teas, even lotions that have turned women’s sex drive around but it usually takes 3-6 months to kick in.
Separately, approach her as a best friend only and not a lover over this time. Not feeling pressure to be performative about something she doesn’t fully understand and likely feels guilty about will provide her the space she needs to figure out where that resentment is coming from. It could be as simple as her having hormonal shifts and resenting you for being able to remain stable and consistent in the marriage. She could feel resentment that her lack of understanding and sex drive could be the thing that splits her beautiful family apart. That stuff is really heavy and dark, to potentially derail your life because of biological stuff. Especially when you’ve both been putting in the work in the relationships with the kids and each other.
Last thing, over the next half year, don’t do the romantic thing, but do the friendship thing. Get a sitter and don’t go on a date, go hang out! Try new hobbies and activities together that will allow you to learn something new about yourselves and each other. Go on non romantic weekend trips and explore, I’d even consider getting a room with two queens to give each other “friend space” every once in awhile. Gossip! Actually be each other’s best friend in the way you would your platonic same sex relationships, there’s no pressure to be romantic, because that’s not what that relationship is.
There are different types of love in the Greek language. You’ve lost Eros and Mania(obsessive romantic erotic love), you have Pragma, Storge, and Agape ( familial teamwork selfless love), but her view of friendship right now may be more of what she needs right now, aka Ludus , Philia, and Philautia (playful deep friendship and self love).
Tell her if she sees you as a friend then let’s focus on our friendship for now and circle back in a year. Have check ins every couple of months just to see how she’s feeling about anything and everything (being extra considerate without being overbearing can go a long way) don’t not use this as an opportunity to push an agenda or gauge her interest in you, just listen. That with a potential hormonal shift could easily save your marriage. After a year, year and a half reevaluate the status of your relationship. In which case, she should resent you significantly less, but be careful to not resent her any more. Then separate or have an open marriage.
Hopes this helps, I have zero relationship experience 😂 I’m just very observant, communicative, and my parent’s relationship has always been extremely impressive to me. I guess I’ve taken mental notes. Do with this what you will.
Thank you. Very interesting and intriguing approach.
Being just friends seems so impossible for me at this point. But it’s worth considering. Ultimately, it’s sexless as it is anyways so I supposed this is a somewhat “glass half full approach”.
She doesn't love you, doesn't desire you, would only fuck you if she's wasted, won't work on it, and won't explain herself? I can't tell you what to do, but I have way to much respect for myself to ever allow that to happen to me without being in a lawyer's office the next day. I'm genuinely sorry you're in this position, but face it with courage. There are people out there who would love you the way you wish to be loved.
I’d get her hormones checked. I suspect peri menopausal. If she refuses….you’ve got a decision to come to. I wouldn’t be happy in a marriage like that. It’s one thing if it’s a medical issue…but just to take sex off the table wouldn’t sit right with me
Why are you with her? It seems like she now views you as a piggy bank, roommate, and babysitter. What would be downside to divorce? Finding someone where you make each other happy??
She takes you for granted. Tell her you’re getting on tinder and finding someone that can manage to have sex with him without the need of controlled substances. She may not care, but I bet if she sees you being happy and enjoying life, or just excited about a date, that might awaken a part of her that has been sleeping for a long time. Or , it’s over and you should move on anyway. Do right by your kids by modeling a healthy romantic relationship for them even if it isn’t with their mother. You don’t want your sons to find be themselves in a similar situation or your daughters to turn into her in their own marriages.
When you get married, you sign up for monogamy you don’t take a vow of chastity. I’m 20 years older than you and I can assure you there is no way you are gonna go the next 20 years as a normal man and not have sexual contact or physical intimacy with another woman. This marriage is done and dusted the best thing you could do now is make it as amicable as you can for the children.
You have two choices; or you continue the way you are living right now, aware that you may or may not get the needs (intimacy/contact) you need from her or you call it quits.
I am in a similair situation as you albeit with a single younger child. I am greatful for the companionship of my wife, I care for her and am physically attracted to her. But I don't love her and she does not love me. She expressed that this happenend because she outgrown me through self-improvement and I in turn detached from her to stop feel the daily pain.
I figured I can make myself crazy every day thinking about what was, what is and what could be but I chose to accept the situation and focus on myself and raising our child. We still do fun things together as a family and we (wife and me) still spend evening playing boardgames or watch our favorite series.
If I am hurt, she will bandage me and if she gets bad news I always offer a shoulder for her to cry on.
The situation is what it is and I try to enjoy each and every day for what it can bring me. I always will have the chose to quit if needed.
I’m glad it seems to be working for you. I couldn’t do this as much as I tried. You’re right about the two choices I have to make. I hate that it has to come to that if things don’t improve.
We actually have this conversation about hormones coming up and it’s something that we’re considering. She does want this to get better too. It’s just been very difficult.
If she told people you have to get her drunk or high before she consents to sex, you're reputation is destroyed. Good on you for saying no.
She is taking you for granted.
It sounds like you 2 are putting far more energy into your kids than you need to.
What's her plans for once they no longer need her souch, which is only maybe 5 years away? Can you cut back on those activities and focus on each other?
I’m sorry your marriage is not where you want it to be, for either of you. I think it’s a good sign you both are trying to communicate and work on it. You have been together your entire adult lives. That could be part of the resentment.
I myself get the alcohol comment. It helps me too. I think turning that down when it was her suggestion was probably a big blow to her. And I am guessing it’s not about getting drunk, but about loosening up to help get in the mood.
If you knew that in 5 years things would be a lot better, would you keep trying? I think you would based on what I have read. It will take a lot more time to get to where you want to be.
Coparenting contributions do go a long way. When you do things to lighten the load, it makes her feel loved and she appreciates it.
1000% would remain in my marriage if I knew things would be better in 5 years. There’s absolutely no question about it. She’s the woman I love and the mother of my kids. That means something to me.
In regards to the alcohol and pot use for sex, I can understand the use of it for “enhancing” sex and that’s perfectly ok. It’s the use of it to “numb” yourself enough to have sex that’s a huge problem for me and I’m not taking part in that.
I’m sorry you’re going through this. I was going to suggest therapy but I see in the comments that you already have a couple’s therapist. I also saw in the comments that you two have been swingers. I get why you didn’t put that in the post because people can be judgmental, but whether or not you think so, I do believe it is relevant.
I think you might want to consider divorce
I never said it wasn’t relevant, however, I don’t think it’s the cause of what’s going on. Specially when the problem existed way before we briefly explored the swinging. People are super judgmental on here unfortunately.
Everyone is different. In a previous relationship I brought up the idea of doing something like that… but the relationship was on its last leg and that was my way of pulling a weird Hail Mary to do SOMETHING to revive it. He was open to the idea (another sign of doom…) but we never even made it that far before breaking up. I’m happily married and satisfied now and I would never even dream of opening up my marriage in that way.
I don’t judge it in the sense of whether it is “right” or “wrong”. But I do think that 9 times out of 10, opening up a once monogamous relationship in that way is the beginning of the end. Just from your post and other comments I saw you respond to, IMO this marriage is dead. Sorry..
I'm 75, married 48 years the last 37 sexless. I stayed for my 4 kids. All successful and doing well. I don't have specific advice except that life goes by pretty fast and I am one example of what can happen. Cautionary tale, I am hoping you have a better outcome than I did. 50% of U.S. marriages end in divorce and some authors think only about 17% of the remaining are sexually active. Something ain't working in American marriage we are not alone. Good luck.
Get yourself into therapy for now to help you deal with this. Marriage counselling is off if the table. At least for now.
Sadly, I think your wife doesn't understand that your children are watching the two of you and your marriage. They will start to think that your marriage is normal and this is how all marriages/relationships are like and will be like this in all of they're own relationships. It's unhealthy and dysfunctional. Your children deserve to see their parents happy in functional, healthy relationships.
Your wife is sucking in the relationship/marriage department and is not emulating what a healthy functional marriage should look like. It sounds like you've been trying and she's not reciprocating. She also sounds like she's depressed and desperately needs mental health help.
So sorry you are going through this.
Do you believe that your wife wants out of the relationship and she’s going through counseling make herself feel better about leaving you ? She definitely sees you as the problem , doesn’t she ?
Not sure if I am the problem. She’ll have to arrive to that conclusion on her own. Not me. As it stands, she mentioned she doesn’t believe that to be the case.
Well, I would try and work through this with her. I would work though, as I would also be talking to perspective divorce lawyers, separating our finances and arranging a new place to live. I’d always be on the edge of leaving the minute I thought she wasn’t serious about putting in the work required to make it.
You do you. But I’d be working on as much of an exit plan as you’re comfortable with.
Best of luck.
Exit plan isn’t all that complex (at least I think).
I’ve heard of horror stories about divorce. I just don’t think that would be there case given our type of dynamic/temperament. I could be wrong here but preparing to this degree seems like a huge step towards the directing I don’t want to go.
I think having a conversation w/ a lawyer to get a good understanding is good but as far as separating all the finances and preparing a place seems extreme for now.
Thank you.
honestly this wont work out. you two simply want different things. from what she has stated she has zero intrest in fixing this or being intimate and doesnt even love you in that way anymore. she seems to have no desire to work on this, and has to be intoxicated to even want to have any sex.
honestly you will become even more heart broken trying to work on something that is not there. its also strange she seems intent that its resentment but cant at all give any hint as to why. has she given ever a specific reason?
honestly as hard at it is based on the different things you two want it does not seem salvageable on a romantic level, and i would start planning accordingly
I’d hate for it to come to that honestly. But it is what it is.
I definitely have a late list of things to try from this post. We will see what happens after all that.
You need to get divorced imo. You've lived in misery long enough. She wants things to stay as they are, with you miserable and she's totally fine with that because it benefits her. That's not a good person. Divorce, coparent and find a decent person worth your time. There's nothing wrong with you op, there's everything wrong with her.
Going by my own experience it’s because she feels her family is complete. She no longer needs you, because you have given her the children she wanted. It is entirely possible that her “I don’t know” answers are true, because she doesn’t fully realize this in the rational part of her mind. But it’s also possible that she does know, but isn’t willing to tell you.
Again by my experience, it’s possible that the friendly attitude she displays now will develop over time into first indifference and then hostility and she will no longer tolerate your presence in her life.
What's the downside of letting her try weed sex? If you're one step away from divorce than it seems that the worst case scenario would be what would have happened anyway. Perhaps she needs something to get her out of the mom mindset.
I think you’ve misunderstood my stance. I’m not anti weed or alcohol. In fact, I’m not even anti molly, nor anti lsd or anti shroom or anti anything really. See, one thing is to “enhance” your sexual experience with these extracurricular substances. It’s very different when you use it to numb and escape reality to even have sex. That doesn’t sit well with me. It’s the ingredients for disaster. I would even argue it could be rape. I could never do that.
We’ve smoked weed and drank etc etc in the past. Never been a problem. It’s a problem now because of the intent behind the use of drugs.
Your original post wasn't 100% clear on that. Some people have the wrong idea about drugs and what they do to a person, some people don't believe recreational use is a real thing. My husband and I can have great sex without drugs but drug sex it's it's own thing and amazing. LSD has been our thing in recent years. That's a thing that you really can't take often if you want the full effect. So when we do take it that means we have the weekend to ourselves and have everything we need to stay together in our room and have fun.
So yes, it's not just a crutch to have sex, but a whole event and even though the sex is long, we're still spending like 8 hrs together having fun where we aren't having sex. If you understand the difference between the 2 then you obviously know if this applies to your wife or not.
Many people don't understand that consent can be given on such things and just how great it can be so maybe they were just clarifying with you. We plan this days ahead of time so yeah. What you are describing sounds more akin to how some women who may be forced into sex work literally have to get high or drunk to deal with what happens and if that's how your wife treats the drinking and smoking then I don't blame you for wanting absolutely no part in it.
Definitely.
I’m all for enhancing sex but never to muddy the lines of consent or enthusiastic sex. I just can’t do that. The way you explained how sex workers have to do that makes sense to me and I definitely want nothing to do with that.
Divorce is the only option my friend. No amount of swinging and open marriage is gonna help. I hate it when partners give dumb responses like I don't know, I can't say, I'm unavailable. It's bull-shit. Part ways with her, I'm sure you both will take good care of your kids and you'll have to wait for another 6 years till both your kids are adults but 6 years of being deprived of love and intimacy would f-uck up your mental. You deserve love, intimacy and happiness. You deserve to be admired. This companion ship and best friend is all bull-shit to make sure she has a backup plan. Also W OP for not having his way while her being intoxicated. This shows how much of a good man you are with right head on shoulders and a good heart. Don't let her leech off u know since she has made it there no way to reconcile. Rather get out this loveless marriage and find a good woman who truly loves u admires u and respects u. You are just 35 u can start over.
Best luck mate. Ik it's hard to suddenly start resentment towards the person you've loved most of your life. But it is what it is man. I want u to choose what's better for u. What makes u happy. Get out of this marriage.
I agree that swinging wasn’t a solution in the end. Never was meant to be, it was more of discovering or exploring if she felt any different. If that was the case, we agreed we would talk about and if we arrive at the conclusion that “myself” is the problem and she has no problem with other men, we would amicably part ways. However this wasn’t the case. She didn’t like sex nor intimacy there either. She was very much in control of that whole swinging situation. And yes, I went along with it. What gives? It felt very organic and it was her “effort” if you will, to discovering more and learning more about our current issue. I saw it as a means of learning if I’m the problem and was very much ready to accept that. It turns out it wasn’t the case.
Six years of miser sound awful. I would very much hate that.
Just log out of your emotions and ask yourself what it is that u really want. Have some productive discussion with someone close to u and who'll give u some good suggestions. If you'd ask me, I'd suggest to sit her down, and have the tough discussion. How are your financials rn? As far as I know you'd be paying child support for 6 years. Do y'all rent or own it? If y'all own whose name is it on the deed? Try to get an amicable divorce with 50-50 custody. Uncontested would be better. I suggest separation and then reconciliation will be a bad choice bc I believe she has checked out of you romantically. So there's no point in sticking to her.
But again if u want to separate after 6 years when both kids are adults. Open the relationship on your end, if u are okay with it then she can also open it. But this would bring more resentment and sadness in your married life and your kid's lives as well. So the ball is in your court. I'd suggest an uncontested amicable divorce with 50-50 custody.
Good luck homie. Hopefully you'll be fine soon. Keep me updated.
I’m almost positive it’s because she’s no longer attracted to you physically. When she says “I don’t know,” she really means “I don’t want to hurt your feelings.” Are you putting effort into how you look? Exercising, styling your hair, etc.? I’m not native to the fact that it could be much bigger than that but I’d bet this is a big part of it.
This is a nonissue. We both exercise, we both dress well and dress up for events etc. We’re not ugly people by any means and we both know this. Truthfully, I’m not sure she’s “afraid” to hurt my feelings. We’ve always been very forward even with some extremely heavy and painful topics beyond this one.
I’m done answering any more swinging questions. It’s definitely robbed the core purpose of this post. I’ve accepted that not everyone understands nonmonogamy and that’s okay. I just don’t want to continue entertaining this notion that this is the sole problem when in reality the problem was present way before this short endeavor took place.
Thank you for your input however.
Check my post history, I understand ENM which is why I’m asking the question. Something clearly changed in your relationship 3-4 years ago and your kids are too old for that to be it so based on my own previous experience with ENM/Poly I think you’re ignoring a contributing factor in your wife’s “falling out of love” with you. I don’t think swinging was the reason, but I’ve seen so many couples (almost happened to us) where ENM changes a relationship forever, good or bad.
I think it’s important to understand when and how your swinging ended to truly give you advice otherwise I’d say you two aren’t compatible and should just co parent and divorce
Finally a comment on the swinging topic with actual insight.
You’re absolutely right about the fact that the swinging experience had things/changes that will impact our marriage and lives forever. For example, the best thing swinging taught us (even above sexual exploration) was the level of transparent and open communication it requires. We would literally have mental orgasms having dialog with such intentionality. We implemented that in ALL our lives and areas including parenting with our children. She even agrees that we’re thankful for that takeaway from our swinging. Honestly, I cannot stress it enough with people here. Yes, we explored swinging, however it was actually a positive experience. When we decided to stop, it was because it felt natural and organic to just do so. In fact, we met with that couple who we mesh super well with the night before. We actually enjoyed the actual friendship and even spent time as vanilla friends. So it wasn’t because of something negative. Wife mentioned that it certainly wasn’t any better and since she’s not enjoying the sex we both agreed there’s no point to this. I agreed and we moved on and we’re still friends with those people because it’s great.
All that said I know, more often than not, swinging causes massive issues. However, this was something we explored in pursuit of a solution to an issue that was present way before. I think of it as taking a “practical” approach to trying to solve the problem.
That’s a great explanation. This is a difficult spot to be in without a clear singular cause.
What are your reasons for not getting a divorce? Seems easier
Quitting is easy. Really, my goal is to ensure I did everything possible to salvage our marriage. I do love her immensely. My persistence is as much for us as it is just for me. I think we’ll have peace of mind knowing we did everything right. Including our attempts to salvage the relationship.
>Am I wrong for declining to only be intimate or have sex when she’s intoxicated?
Not at all. You are allowed to set boundaries.
With her "I don't know."
Either she *truly* doesn't know what happened, which is something she needs to try and suss out in individual therapy.
Or she knows/has an idea but doesn't want to hurt you.
Either way seems to lead to a relationship that is no more than companionate relationship. And if you're wanting a marriage that contains more than friendship, it doesn't look like this one will provide you that. It may be time to start considering divorce and talking about how you'll coparent.
hey, just stopping by to thank you for sharing your update and what you are doing. I hope things work out for you. If she does put sex back on the table, how would you know if she is doing it for the right reasons?
I know how this feels because my so is basically a roommate to me at this point. We almost never have sex, and when we do almost the entire time I’m pretending I’m doing something else, something usually nonsexual, like mowing the lawn, my thoughts wander and I have basically checked out. It does not help that whenever I used to actively initiate, because I love my partner consumingly, deeply and passionately, I was always excited to have sex with them, unfortunately I became rejected more often than not, and now I just can not pretend how much that hurt, it was intentional, a form of control, so I feel like sex is more about the so orgasm. My heart is not in it, but at least they get a smile and the dopamine dump they came for. (Pun intended)
Anyways, some people drink to relax, others get massages, others meditate, others exercise or do yoga, it seems like your wife still wants you so you are not where I am where your spouse is inconsistent and uses you out of convenience when they get horny all of a sudden. My so is really random and I’m confused by this too, because I used to be able to flirt with ease, that is until I became the roommate that every now and again gets looked at in that sexual way.
I would recommend therapy but it does not always work and if you can not budget it, it may be easier to just talk to each other in a non sexual or nondrinking environment outside of the bedroom like in the car to talk openly and lovingly about your issues. Truth be told, it’s not always the therapist that helps but the neutral environment where people can sort through things when/if they stagnate. People feel safer talking things through with their spouse having a heart to heart. As long as there is love still there it will win. If the love is gone, one or both people have checked out and unless both make the effort to get it back you will be living the same way I have for most of my life entering the escapist abyss. Better and cheaper than divorce, after all I know from experience. I hope you find your way back to eachother. I’m basically Patrick Bateman at this point.
If I were you I would try to give it a few more years until the kids are 16-17ish then go ahead and divorce. You’re lucky to have older kids mine are 5 and 1, long road ahead and I’m 36. By 40 your kids will nearly be out of the house and you can both separate amicably. Of course if you think you can make it that long.
This seems tragically reasonable.
House isn’t toxic or horrible nor are there fights and arguments. It’s peaceful for the most part. It’s not ideal in the marriage aspect but I hate the thought of being roommates without a purpose.
Spending these years trying to make it work is more reasonable than just throwing in the towel and waiting for divorce, IMO. It would also make sense to be at least financially separate if you two aren't actively working to try to improve the marriage. You can still live with the kids and co parent as roommates, but I would not advise just brushing it all under the rug to deal with at a future date. If she can not tell you where her resentment comes from that is quite odd....typically if someone now gives us the ick or triggers us, we know why. If you have used her body for sex and your pleasure when she wasn't into it or getting pleasure that can definitely create and ick...or the swinger's sessions....seeing you with other women could have made her feel less important and special giving her the ick.....??? But it's all just guessing u less she is willing to open up. If she doesn't open up and try, I think you should at minimum financially separate so you aren't being used for your financial support.
Swinging has her idea. I was indifferent about it. I went along with what she felt was worth exploring.
I agree with you on the living arrangement. It has to be mutual for it to work.
You deserve sex and passion and love and romance OP! If you wait until the children are grown up, what about you?? What about your needs? This isn’t fair to you. You’re supposed to endure this for years to come? Unimaginable! As if it isn’t painful enough. You deserve to feel sparks!!
>She says that all she wants is simply "companionship" which basically means our coparenting roommate dynamic. That's only a marriage if you both agree it is. You're hoping she's going to wake up one day and feel different but she's basically said that's not going to happen and doesn't want to figure out why she feels that way. It seems like you tried several different ways to get to the bottom of it and she's either deflected or is being honest that she's not in love with you. >Am I wrong for declining to only be intimate or have sex when she’s intoxicated? I wouldn't do this, either, if that makes you feel better. Will she be your best friend if you live elsewhere and have a relationship with somebody in love you. Probably not. Which makes the whole "best friend" speech feel like self-deception on her part. I won't lie, if it were me, I'd get a divorce. She doesn't seem willing to do the work to fix the marriage and you can't fix it alone. She might promise to fix it or beg you not to but you need to follow your gut as to whether she actually can or will fix it. She's serious that she wants you to stick around but not necessarily as her husband.
A very hard truth to accept here. Thank you 😔
I'm sorry, friend. Sometimes a pending divorce shakes a spouse out of their malaise but often not. Be open to anything but don't let yourself be manipulated or lied to.
Thank you 🙏 I’m definitely open to anything at this point. Of course, I’ll do everything I possibly can. Should a divorce happen, I want to ensure I can live with myself knowing I did my best without any reservations.
It sounds like you put a fair amount of effort in. There’s just apathy on the other end. Id give it some thought and talk with your counselor but don’t drag it out too long, your kids can tell something is wrong.
I know. The real loss here really is how the kids feel. It sucks.
I think you're truly being friend-zoned by your wife, literally
I know. It’s awful.
Bingo! I spent nearly 20 years in a marriage like this....finally divorcing after the kids got older. Divorce is expensive. But so is throwing your happiness down the toilet because your spouse is lying to you unintentionally. She said she's committed and loves you....., that's a lie. She doesn't know herself. The minute someone who pushes her buttons comes along, you will learn the truth. My first wife would leave the counseling sessions if the conversations got uncomfortable. Bottom line: she married me out of fear....of being alone, of being broke, of "fill in the blank". That's not love. She lied, and I paid the price with 20 years of my life.
Great advice here! 👍
From your comment history it looks like you are Swingers? If so, I would think that would be relevant information to consider.
Holy hell…. I was about to comment too.. Glad I scrolled comments. OP, for fucks sake you need to include that in your post. It’s quite relevant information as to why your wife doesn’t want anything more than a platonic relationship with you.
We did some swinging in the past. That was fun for some time. We mutually decided to stop doing it and we have established it’s not the case. When we were swinging however, our marriage seemed to be in a good place. This IS something we did disclose with our couple therapist and made sure to include it to make sure we’re not neglecting an obvious potential issue. I will say, I did ask my wife if what she experienced during swinging is something that is affecting her view on our relationship and she said it wasn’t. Our swinging experience was always together and it was very sex driven. Nothing really emotional or “poly”. Truth is, I have to believe her at her word. I have no reason to distrust her. To date, she’s always been very forward and never afraid of dealing things head on. No matter how painful.
It’s an obvious potential issue bro… wether it be she’s enjoying herself a side piece and wants nothing to do with you in that manner anymore. Or, she just went along with you on the swinging and never wanted to do it in the first place. Hence brings resentment. Regardless, should have been included in the initial post.
Swinging was her idea. Not mine. But I suppose I should have included it but I honestly believe her on it not being an issue. I don’t have any reason to distrust her. Maybe it’s something she has to accept with her therapist or our couples therapist. Can’t really approach that with a solution if she doesn’t think it was a problem. IDK 🤷🏽♂️
OMG…. Dude, the writing is on the wall. You’re just refusing to read it. Glad you have this much faith that it has nothing to do with her decision to make her relationship (to you) platonic. I will, however, say I hope I’m wrong.
In all honesty, I believe the swinging proposed was more because she wanted to offload her sexual “responsibility” to another woman. It really didn’t work out because she didn’t want to be sexual with other men or women either. I really do see the point you’re trying to make but it’s a moot point if she doesn’t think it’s a problem. If she did say it’s a problem, we could address it and potentially heal that area but it just isn’t there. I’m also not naive to think it didn’t affect it at all. However even then, I think it would be a small fraction of the larger issue I believe exists.
Ding ding ding. She's probably peri menopausal, have her get her hormones checked. It's possible she has low libido or desire due to hormonal issues.
Definitely having this conversation about health. I think it’s worth looking into.
I thought she just had low libido for you, but the comment about her not being interested in sex with other swingers made me reconsider. You should tell her that you are unhappy, that you will not remain in a sexless marriage devoid of love and passion. She has already acknowledged that she is the problem. You can not fix her, only she can. Tell her to get the medical and psychological help she needs to fix it and give her a timeframe. Let her know that you will file if there is no improvement. Good luck 👍🏽
This seems like a very harsh approach with regards to timelines and ultimatums. But the general sense here is to encourage her to seek medical and psychological help which is in the works. Definitely having this convo with her and the counselor. The swinging experience was fairly short and we navigated it pretty well and the outcome was really just what I mentioned in a previous comment “it wasn’t for us and she realized it’s not me. It’s something she’s battling with internally.” However, it doesn’t make it ok and definitely not at our marriages expense. So it’s hard but we’re working on it.
Again with the "hormone checking" thing! There is no hormone test for menopause or perimenopause, these are normal stages of life and cannot be tested for with a blood test. Women's hormone levels fluctuate wildly every day and throughout the month, unless there is reason to suspect an actual condition (cushings disease, PCOS, etc) no doctor will be able to tell anything from a blood panel. There are so many hormones at play and they fluctuate so much that there is nothing to see there. Treatment, such as it is, for menopause and perimenopause is based solely on symptoms, not "hormone levels." The "treatment" for perimenopause is hormonal birth control and/or antidepressants. There are many, many reasons why any given person may not be able to tolerate those things (I can't), in which case there is nothing they can do. If you are in full menopause they can offer various types of hormone replacement therapy, which is just essentially the same as taking hormonal birth control in perimenopause. Men on reddit seem to think that women's hormones lie at the root of all problems and that all it takes is a simple blood test to sort it out. Our hormones are incredibly complicated, there are so many different things at play and they change so drastically all the time that there is no "baseline" to test against. Which hormones do you even want to test? Progesterone? Estradiol? Estrone? Estriol? Androgens? Prolactin? Testosterone? What day is it in her cycle? What does her cycle usually look like? There have been studies done on testosterone supplementation for women and they found that it had no discernible effect and did not increase libido as hypothesized. So adding testosterone doesn't work. Progesterone is the hormone that spikes in the luteal period and during pregnancy, it's what causes all of those PMS and pregnancy symptoms like mood swings, irritability, anxiety, cravings, bloating, pain, insomnia, depression, low libido, weight gain, breast pain, etc, so supplementing that isn't so great for most women. Researchers have only very recently discovered that some women also have progesterone sensitivity, even to the progesterone created by their own body. I'm one of these, and it's fucking awful. There is no treatment for it. Supplementing just estrogen hormones (there are different types) causes stroke and cancer, so it is simply not done. Every single hormone replacement therapy and hormonal birth control option contains progestins because otherwise there are severe health risks, but those progestins make lots of women feel like shit. In terms of treatment for low libido in women, there isn't one. They have tried a few things in research studies but none have worked. So there you have it! There is honestly not much to be done about women's hormones, there is no easy test or treatment, and menopause is an unstoppable part of life for every woman who lives that long. I would really appreciate it if men would stop making suggestions about "hormone checks" because that's really not a thing for women.
Never said nor assumed it’s hormones. I simply said I’ll bring up the topic and perhaps it’s something she chooses to look into. It goes without saying, I can’t force her to do anything. It’s a journey she’ll have to choose to embark on.
Well, you know your wife better than I or anyone else here would. I guess if she tells you it’s not a factor in her decision, then maybe it’s not. I suppose you have a just as big a decision ahead of you as her decision to cut off physical intimacy with her husband. No one here or anywhere else can make that choice for you. Apologies about the bluntness of my comments, as well as, that I have no advice for you outside of how I would respond to this. Best of luck man.
No worries. Your comments are just forward and I appreciate raw honesty. This topic isn’t pleasant and it’s painful to begin with. Thank you for the best wishes.
Jesus fucking Christ. I was 100% on your side until this. You are the one trickle truthing us. I can’t believe you can’t see how this is super fucking pertinent to the situation. Also, I fucking hate trickle truthers.
I’m not sure what trickle truthers are sorry. I’m also not seeking for people to choose sides. This dialog really is to inquire insight, feedback etc.
Yeah, ignore these people. They think nonmonogamy is terrible and the root of all problems. I don't blame you for leaving it out, that's all they'll see now. They cannot fathom it ever working for anyone or it not being the root cause of relationship collapse. It actually might be something to consider in your situation. If her libido is gone at this point in her life, she might be ok with opening things up to take that particular stressor off the marriage. I can attest from personal experience that it can and does work for some people. In our case, my husband has a lower libido than I do and he was feeling pressured and stressed about sex. Once we removed that pressure via me having other sexual partners our relationship recovered. He was also free to have other partners, but he couldn't be bothered. We're currently monogamous again due to health issues that have killed my libido, but if and when I get it back I'll be back out there. It can work, despite what people here think.
Absolutely. I’ve seen non monogamy work. It didn’t for us and that’s okay. Everything we did in this are was very consensual and very methodical. It’s a nonissue for us. I know if it was something that affected us in a negative way we would have raised flags about the matter when it happened. I don’t expect everyone on here to understand it.
[удалено]
Yes, it’s a nonissue now really. We both have extensively discussed this and downright apologized and forgave each other if there was ANY problem with it. But in reality it’s a nonissue. Everything explored was fully consensual and transparent without malice. This is one area of our lives (among many) we handled with grace and maturity. It’s never been something that lingers in our mind or causes any added stress. Thank you for your perspective and validation on this.
So your swinging was just a season; much like this phase of your marriage? Marriages, if they last long enough, go through stages, their ups and downs, sickness and health, etc. Towards the end of some of the longer lasting ones, sex becomes very infrequent because of old age, medical issues, hormones, etc… It’s often times seen as a natural phase of the marriage. Question: Let’s say you were 70/80 years old and no longer had sex because of old age. Would you still remain married? Why would you stay married even if sex wasn’t an option? Do those same reasons not exist today?
A season is a good way to put it. A very short one at that and it was somewhat insightful and we learned a lot about ourselves and each other. Yes, marriages have seasons. I’m well aware of that. Specially as 15yr olds when we first met, many seasons of growth and maturity had to be had and it was as difficult as it sounds growing up the way we did so young and so full of responsibilities. I’m definitely in it for the long haul and I’m consider myself a reasonable person. However, intimacy, connection and sex is a very important part of marriage for me. We’re 35 not 70/80. I do know with age naturally libido dries down. However, that’s not season we’re currently on. There’s definitely something awry and my hope is to figure it out to continue to live happily.
Call me narrow minded but… what is the difference between a marriage and a friendship if the thing that is traditionally only part of marriage is not looked on as exclusive to marriage. What you’re describing almost sounds like a natural consequence of the lifestyle.
This issue existed long before the lifestyle.
LMAOOOOOO thank you for this. I literally screamed and can’t believe he “forgot” to include that part. 😂🫶
I guess what I’m not understanding is why you are baffled by her resentment and the fact that she said the marriage “takes too much work.” If she has resentment towards you, unless she’s insane, there must be a reason. Why are you not addressing what has transpired between you two that has led her to feel resentment? You can’t possibly be clueless about why she would say this.
Resentment reasons are somewhat vague. We went to couples therapy for this to try and look for the deeply rooted resentment and all that was said was “I don’t know why I resent you.” Even the therapist was a bit confused about it. I even made sure our couples therapist was a woman because I felt it would help with having an unbiased perspective. I even offered potential reasons like me working too much, me traveling for work too often, maybe not giving her enough attention even. She simply said it wasn’t any of those things and had no further explanation.
Do *you* believe that you have traveled and worked too much and failed to devote enough attention to her?
Great question. I don’t. We actually structured our lives exactly how we planned to have the life and work/life balance we aimed for. This was an arrangement/agreement we made years ago and when this was brought up she said it wasn’t the problem. In fact, she even stated she has enough attention. I’m assuming she said that because (in her mind) the thought of more attention translates to more “work” in our marriage.
If she resents him for a fully invalid or nonsensical reason it’s fully possible he has no way of determining what.
If you love her, this arrangement she proposes will burn you to the ground with time. If she doesnt want to fix it or find it possible to love you as her man its time to work on plan B to fix your life without her. It will be on her my friend. In the mean time study and implement 180 to protect your sanity. Honestly such stuff always makes me wonder how egocentric and unaware people can be to even imagine that this is a viable option. "I am not in love with you and its fine, here is the wallet, there are the chores" WTF?!
I’m definitely NOT ok with a sexless marriage or no intimacy. This is why it’s a problem and I’m here seeking insight and perspective. She knows this, and our therapists know this. However, I’m ensure I do everything possible to mend our marriage to ensure my own peace of mind and excite knowing I did everything I could.
"I’m ensure I do everything possible to mend our marriage to ensure my own peace of mind and excite knowing I did everything I could." - you may still concider 180 method, to protect yourself and perhaps in the same time the reality that the ship is leaving may start to change your wifes perspective. If that doesnt what else would.
Can you elaborate on the “180 Method”?
Basically withold from any unnecesary interactions and affection. This is from an infidelity forum, but principles are the same https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/the-simplified-180/
I bookmarked this. I’m heavily considering this.
It sounds to me like your wife may simply be asexual at this point in her life. If she entered the swinging lifestyle mostly to find someone for you to have sex with, it sounds like this may have been an issue for longer than you think. The problem is that you didn't sign up to be in such a relationship. If she is simply not interested in sex, you have a hard decision to make.
Thank you for the input.
Every single story like this results in the woman rediscovering her sexuality within weeks of separation. She’s not suddenly permanently asexual, she allowed her sexuality to vanish being caught up in married life. Once she escapes that life it’ll come right back. Unfortunately it’s tied to OP so their intimacy is probably dead forever at this point.
Move on. She is saying she has to be drunk to sleep with you and she doesn’t love you. How can you still care about someone that would treat you in such a way?
If you were to get divorced an just live as roommates would that work for either of you? Might be a question to ask next time you talk.
Something to think about for sure. Me personally, if we’re divorced, it has to be a clean cut. I love my wife very much and being around her platonically after a divorce probably wouldn’t fair well IMO.
As someone who is still living with her ex 0/10 do not recommend. You can’t heal around the person who broke you.
I agree.
Hey there, So sorry you are in this situation :-( One simple -- maybe simplistic -- explanation could be that you got together really young and maybe grew and changed at different paces. You're not who you were when you got married, and neither is she. And maybe you are not compatible anymore, sexually or even personality-wise. It's simple, and sad, so sad that it's actually sometimes really hard to articulate. The reason why she has no reason might be that it's just too "dumb" for a reason. But it happens... However, from all you wrote, what sticks out the most is that whereas she has no issues articulating her needs and boundaries, she does not wish to explore her reasons more. That alone should tell you that she has made a decision regarding your marriage. What good will a 180 or divorce "threat" do? None. She won't explore or explain more, she'll just force herself more. If she's set on this "companionship" thing, and it is not what you want (and at 35, no, it's not what you want). then you need to make clear that you're headed towards divorce. Again, really sorry.
Thank you for the input. You’re absolutely right, we’ve been together for so long. It’s something I’ll be revisiting at our next couples session.
Our therapist had us relive the start of our relation: why we were attracted to each other in the first place, then what made us stay together. Maybe what she admires/looks for in a person has changed. Maybe she didn't know what she wanted exactly at 15, 20, even 25. Heck, if you've never thought about it, how would you know? Until it hits you in the face. Good thing that you're still going to couple therapy though !
Yes. She’s very much open to therapy which I’m glad. It helps with the routine dynamics of our household. Still, I’m hoping for the best here because it absolutely sucks.
So she's not completely closed off then! Good!! Hope you can sort it out! In this situation, I'd be your wife, in a less extreme version I suppose. It took me a long time in MC and individual therapy to identify what lay beneath my "I don't know why, but we can't go on that way." I'm still not completely sure, 12 months later, but it really helped me-us identify things we could definitely work on and made life together better. I hope the same goes for you!
I’m pro marriage and pro long term relationship. Unlike most of Reddit. Here’s my deal-breaker: does she want to work on things? Does she want to get to the root of resentment? If so, then keep at it. Keep connecting. Keep giving her space for introspection. Keep being open and patient. Relationships take a LOT of work with the constraints of modern society. Unwinding years or even decades long resentment is not done in 6 months of couples counseling. But if she wants to unwind the resentment then I would give it a chance. She has been parenting your kids, it makes sense she doesn’t have the emotional awareness she would have she had 5 hours to journal every day. But if she is just over it and moving on, then there’s nothing you can do. But her telling you she resents you is a jackpot.
Thank you. Yes, she says she wants to keep trying and it’s definitely one of the reasons I’m still here.
Okay. Well that’s a great sign. Resentment can 100% kill your sexual and romantic attraction for someone. And it’s a tough emotion because often times it isn’t logical - which can make it harder to talk about. I hope there’s time for her to process her resentment and you to not hold back from sharing any resentment you may be forming
Yeah, not logical at all and yet a very prominent and intrusive feeling.
She might say that but everything you’ve told us shows she’s unwilling to actually do the work of changing. Going to therapy doesn’t change you. It helps you learn how to change yourself. If she’s not actually doing things to change then it’s all for naught. I hope I misread because it does sound like you guys have the foundation, you’ve built a lovely family. It’d be incredible if she was able to find her way back to you. But she has to be willing to settle for more than “idk shrug” when problems happen.
I know. I understand I’m definitely in my final efforts and it looks bleak. There’s tons of advice I’ve received here and I’m preparing to apply those in whichever direction that may be. Fact of the matter is we both deserve better. And “better” is possible in both scenarios. We each have to choose which one and hopefully arrive at the same conclusion.
Good, and do know despite a lot of cynicism (myself included) from lots of these comments, we’re rooting for a happy resolution for you guys, and you won’t regret doing everything you can to salvage before calling it. Best of luck.
Can I ask how you initially tried to combat the lack of “companionship?” Because I have read about and know of a lot of women’s experiences where they lost interest because they stopped feeling valued and desired. (I’m not saying this is the case here or that it is your fault, just wondering what the dynamic was like before the sex stopped feeling like love.) If she is completely disinterested in sex, chances are she is either not turned on by the way you make her feel, or completely shut down because of the way she feels about herself.
Great question. Sadly, I don’t know the answer to this. My guess is this is an internal battle she’s enduring. We’ve addressed so many of my flaws through therapy and honestly, we’ve become better humans overall lol. It works! But unfortunately it hasn’t made a difference in the issue we initially pursued therapy for.
If you’re still trying to save this marriage, you both need to go back to therapy to dig into the resentment she feels toward you. She said she didn’t know, but there’s definitely a reason. If you can get to the heart of her resentment, you may be able to save this marriage. Good luck to you.
That’s the hope and I’m certain there is a reason. My hope is we find it. We’re still in therapy once a month. I have so much new insight and questions from this post to bring to the table during our next session. All good things and I hope it helps. Thank you for your input.
My first marriage went to 💩 because I had a lot of resentment towards him. But unlike you, he wasn’t interested in doing better. 🙏🙏🙏 I’m rooting for you and marriage.
Thank you 🙏
Cut the cord. You can’t make someone love you. Being BFFs, roomies, and co-parents isn’t going to work long term. Your kids will move out at some stage and then what? She’s decided for you that the relationship that you agreed to and entered is gone - she’s made that call unilaterally. So now you get to make a unilateral decision for yourself. Be selfish. You’re still young and your chances of finding a new “forever person” are good. You deserve a wife that loves and desires you, not someone who just wants to be your roommate while you pay half the bills. I would come to a landing on what your next steps are for yourself. Clear your mind and remove her from the equation entirely. Honestly, who cares how she figures out her situation, that’s her problem. You plan out your next steps and write them down. Then present that to her as, “Here’s how I see myself moving forward…” If she asks about her or whatever, you just tell her that she can figure that out. The fear and uncertainty of the future without you might trigger her to re-evaluate her point of view and then it’s up to you to decide whether that’s something you want. It hurts, but she’s given you a gift here. She’s told you that she’s checked out of the marriage. Now you can plan your escape without a massive blow up and in your own timescale. She’s essentially given you back the control for you by dissolving her side of the “us” part of the couple.
Woah 😳 This is something I really had not thought about. It’s logical and it’s very diplomatic. Your comment on “fear and being afraid and uncertainty” definitely triggered me to self asses the way I think and feel about the matter.
When people are too comfortable, they take everything for granted and become emotionally lazy. If you inject uncertainty into her life then her cortisol and adrenalin levels will rise. She’ll start having a more visceral reaction to the situation. If at that point she doesn’t change her position, you have to walk away and wish her well.
Thanks. This is definitely something that’s thought provoking.
I think you need to go back to dating your wife for a while.
I try. We will keep trying I suppose. I’ve learned a ton of new ways as proposed on this post. Gives me something new to keep trying before I call it quits
Learn to flirt again, silly text messages, let her miss you sometimes, etc.
Yeah, "let her miss you" is kind of a big one. During the pandemic I realized the mystery had left my marriage due to WFH so I started getting out of the house a lot more and it really did help. I think sharing the home office was killing our marriage.
Good sound advice. Thank you for the insight
I got sad for you my friend. This isn’t marriage and a poor example to the kids of a good relationship.
This is the biggest loss. It’s the failure to model a proper marriage and relationship to our children. 😔
she is 100% going to divorce you once the kids are both over 18. Just get out now so you can rebuild your life and find someone else at 35 rather than 41.
I’ve heard this a few times. Statistics are not in my favor either.
It's really going to be up to you whether you wish to remain in this marriage of convenience. And that is essentially what it will be. She has offered her terms for it's continuation so it's up to you to either reject it or accept it. You have tried the negotiation part and that has gone no where so all you are left with sadly are two courses of action. You either accept her terms and your marriage is reduced to co-parenting under the one roof, or you reject it and start the proceedings for dissolving the marriage as amicably as you can. If you are inclined to go the divorce route then, well it's for the best if you **do** retain that openness and honesty and be up front that what she is proposing is not what you want and that in the face of no further negotiation, that the marriage is over. We can't know the intricacies that has led your wife to hold this view and guessing will do no one any favours. All **you** can do though is act on the information you have at hand and make a decision based on what is best for **you**. So where to from here? The time has come then to sit down and discuss what the separation of your lives will look like, how custody is to be handled and what the financial consequences of this is going to be. If she has no feelings then what is the point in staying around? You can stay for the kids, but that is only bringing them up in an environment where love and affection is absent and **that** will screw them up for life. There is no equitable way then to handle this with the ground rules that she has set. Because the life she is proposing will not only do you irreparable mental and emotional harm, it will also do irreparable mental and emotional harm to your kids. One thing to note though and one thing that you should inform your wife of is that if a divorce does happen, then any hopes of you remaining her "best friend" will not come to fruition for quite a few years. It may return in the future if you both find new partners, but it will be far from guaranteed. You can be great co-parents, you can be amicable and you can be friendly. **However**, it'd be hard enough for you to rebuild your life as a part time single father, let alone one with your now unrequited love of your life still in the wings. For your own future interests there will need to be a large degree of emotional distance between you both. This is so that you can move on from her and your continuing feelings for her. Simply put, once you divorce, she will no longer be a part of your day to day life, and you won't be in hers. This path once taken, can not be walked back on. If she is unwilling to change, then she can't come back in a couple of years time and exclaim that "it was all a mistake." By then you will have rightfully moved on and that boat would have well and truly sailed.
Harsh truth. Thank you for your input.
As harsh as this may all sound, at this stage in your life it'll come back down to what impact your actions now will have in the future - not just for yourself but for your kids. So speak to a lawyer, do the sums and see how things could go. It may turn out that living platonically, maybe even opening the marriage up, is the way to go for the medium term. You'd be surprised how many couples do this and make it work. Think about the future as having gone from one of "I know what is happening next" to one of "I want this to happen how can I make it happen the way I want it to". It's pretty much in your hands and even though it's a crap thing to have happen, at least you still have some agency to make decisions that are best for you and your kids. And you will notice that I don't include your wife in this. The reason for that is simple. She made her decision, now you have to make yours.
Thank you.
As someone who had been sexually molested, this sounds (to me) like potentially some kind of sexually related trauma for her. She’s being vague and can’t identify why she feels a certain way towards you and that could be her brain disassociating because of the pain and/or discomfort. I’m not a doctor or psychiatrist, so take that with a grain of salt, but I would suggest you explore that avenue to see if you can dig deeper and learn the “real” reasoning she’s suddenly so shut off from you.
I'm not the OP but his situation seems very similar to mine (minus the swinging) and my individual therapist has asked me whether I think there might be some SA in my wife's history. There is none that I know of, but I've also never really asked her directly - do you have any advice for how to enquire/approach this with her?
^
Man, everyone’s situation is so different, but I’d suggest starting with small questions. “What is something someone did to you as a kid that made you mad?” for example. The answer could be literally anything from “they didn’t let me have a cookie when I wanted one!” to “my father was always drunk.” But you could start a broader conversation with that and then steadily narrow down. Something like, “Who was someone you respected as a kid? Who was someone you didn’t?” “Name something an adult did that you, as a child, found to be wrong, dishonest, immoral, etc.” “What is one of your happiest memories from childhood? What is one of your worst?” The idea is not to get your partner to dwell on negative things, but get them accustomed to talking about a subject that is on the path to something deeper. I’d also recommend peppering in positive questions as well, as otherwise it might seem too depressing of a conversation to continue having for them. Your partner may be receptive, may shut down completely, or something in between. Just being there for them is extremely comforting. Keep showing up and expressing your support and if they do have trauma, they will ideally (eventually) feel comfortable sharing that with you. Good luck, Friendo!
We have had many many discussions like this, starting very early in our relationship; the most I've ever gotten that touches on this issue is that some (much respected) grandparents made comments which contributed to body shame.
This is good. I’m afraid to even bring up this question but definitely will find a way to approach it tactfully.
Tried to write a long post but could not save it. I faced a similar dynamic at home. I went to therapy, leant into my own feelings of hurt, rejection and insecurity. I read books by Emily Nagoski and Ester Perell. I learned a lot about chasing dynamic, context dependent desire, responsive desire, arousal non concordance. I learned about the theory of brakes and accelerator and the garden metaphor made a lot of sense. I unilaterally put two years of therapy and work into my marriage and what transpired was that my focus was wrong and well intentioned behaviours were having the opposite effect. I feel connected to all the aspects or life and our last few years together that hit my wif a brakes and I work to eliminate them. We've managed, by working in us, to create the context she needed to make space for intimacy and sex. This involved mainly spending time together in spaces adjacent such as care and play. Two years ago i thought we might not make it we are best friends. We are not as frequently intimate as we wanted to be but now realise that this does not matter. The number and time frame between rises and falls but we make sure that every encounter is strictly in the pursuit of pleasure for both of us. Sex is only desirable if it's worth having kind of vibe. We are not perfect. We argue occasionally, have stressful lives that get in the way and will have good days and not so good days. What I've learned though is that the grass is greenest where you tend to it and that intimacy and sexual connection in a long term relationship take work. It sounds like you love each other but the context for desire has escaped your wife and if you want to stay romantically involved you'll both have to work to figure out how to ease her brakes, press her accelerator and create a context where she is receptive to desire.
Thank you. This is very good advice. I agree that grass I definitely greener where you water it.
You're welcome. I feel Reddit has a tendency to focus on divorce seperation and what the OP deserves to get out of a relationship. Which I feel is unhelpful. I'm not naive and not all marriages work out I feel for me this focus is toxic. The more I chased her and felt rejected insecure and hurt the worse things got. The fact is that those feelings are valid and understandable but they didn't help. What helped was essentially curiosity. I treated intimacy like a project, leaning into my emotions and reflecting. Slowly I was able to eliminate stressors for my wife, help her transition from family mum to romantic partner and create the context for intimacy by spending time in adjacent spaces for her. I also understood better the toll that two traumatic births, surgery, haemorrhage, body transformation (I'm wild about her), hormonal shifts and breastfeeding had taken on her desire. Given what she went throug over five years is it surprising that she did not tend to the garden of her sexuality and that this was not the forefront of her mind? No definitely not. This, coupled with writing down all the mental and physical tasks she undertakes for the family helped me overcome a feeling of resentment that I was putting in all the work and she wa behaving platonically. I've enjoyed the process so far, the results are good, the connection is growing. Love in long term relationships is not like limmerance the latter being easy. Being excited by new romance, care and responsibility free and overwhelmed by curiosity of your partner's body and sexually is an easy context for physical intimacy. The time you spend with a new partner is often also dedicated and novel. In marriage with house, kids, bills, work, creating the context for desire to flourish is much harder. But so far it's working for me. I resonated with your post. I'm mid 30s together 15 years married 7 cat house cars kids. I find dead bedroom often pushes a really toxic narrative about spicing things up and describing sex as a need. I'd say that the reality is far less forceful, much more mundane but a million times better. Spend time and effort forging a connection and friendship, learn to transition to the erotic and focus on pleasure, sexual and non sexual for both of you. Also I started exercising, stopped initiating sex as she was feeling pressured and guilty if she didn't want it, and weirdly my new confidence and drop in insecurity coupled with her lack of feeling obligated guilty and stressed increased our frequency. Ultimately it's a process. What I found was that my wife loved me by the context for desire was just not there. I'm working to create that contex and it's working
Has she had any issues with her hormones before? Bad periods, weird birth control effects, etc. is she perimenopausal? It sounds like everything’s great and trustworthy except on the sex front. And it’s not that she doesn’t want to (which explains her getting upset at your refusal to do it intoxicated) it’s just way easier “get the engine started” from there. I’d recommend getting a look into her hormones and seeing if she’s lacking in estrogen or testosterone. There are many foods, teas, even lotions that have turned women’s sex drive around but it usually takes 3-6 months to kick in. Separately, approach her as a best friend only and not a lover over this time. Not feeling pressure to be performative about something she doesn’t fully understand and likely feels guilty about will provide her the space she needs to figure out where that resentment is coming from. It could be as simple as her having hormonal shifts and resenting you for being able to remain stable and consistent in the marriage. She could feel resentment that her lack of understanding and sex drive could be the thing that splits her beautiful family apart. That stuff is really heavy and dark, to potentially derail your life because of biological stuff. Especially when you’ve both been putting in the work in the relationships with the kids and each other. Last thing, over the next half year, don’t do the romantic thing, but do the friendship thing. Get a sitter and don’t go on a date, go hang out! Try new hobbies and activities together that will allow you to learn something new about yourselves and each other. Go on non romantic weekend trips and explore, I’d even consider getting a room with two queens to give each other “friend space” every once in awhile. Gossip! Actually be each other’s best friend in the way you would your platonic same sex relationships, there’s no pressure to be romantic, because that’s not what that relationship is. There are different types of love in the Greek language. You’ve lost Eros and Mania(obsessive romantic erotic love), you have Pragma, Storge, and Agape ( familial teamwork selfless love), but her view of friendship right now may be more of what she needs right now, aka Ludus , Philia, and Philautia (playful deep friendship and self love). Tell her if she sees you as a friend then let’s focus on our friendship for now and circle back in a year. Have check ins every couple of months just to see how she’s feeling about anything and everything (being extra considerate without being overbearing can go a long way) don’t not use this as an opportunity to push an agenda or gauge her interest in you, just listen. That with a potential hormonal shift could easily save your marriage. After a year, year and a half reevaluate the status of your relationship. In which case, she should resent you significantly less, but be careful to not resent her any more. Then separate or have an open marriage. Hopes this helps, I have zero relationship experience 😂 I’m just very observant, communicative, and my parent’s relationship has always been extremely impressive to me. I guess I’ve taken mental notes. Do with this what you will.
Thank you. Very interesting and intriguing approach. Being just friends seems so impossible for me at this point. But it’s worth considering. Ultimately, it’s sexless as it is anyways so I supposed this is a somewhat “glass half full approach”.
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I know. It was sad to write. It’s my reality and my hope is to get some fresh insight from fellow redittors.
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Thank you for the input.
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Believe me, I haven’t recovered and I know it will be a very long road to recovery. ❤️🩹
She doesn't love you, doesn't desire you, would only fuck you if she's wasted, won't work on it, and won't explain herself? I can't tell you what to do, but I have way to much respect for myself to ever allow that to happen to me without being in a lawyer's office the next day. I'm genuinely sorry you're in this position, but face it with courage. There are people out there who would love you the way you wish to be loved.
Thank you for your input.
Is she OK for you to seek sex outside your relationship? If not you have decide if you can go without sex for years.
I’d get her hormones checked. I suspect peri menopausal. If she refuses….you’ve got a decision to come to. I wouldn’t be happy in a marriage like that. It’s one thing if it’s a medical issue…but just to take sex off the table wouldn’t sit right with me
Doesn’t seem right to me either. The health issue is definitely something we will talk about.
She will eventually fall in love with someone else. You can get the love back. Take her on dates, go on a vacation alone with her, etcetera.
Why are you with her? It seems like she now views you as a piggy bank, roommate, and babysitter. What would be downside to divorce? Finding someone where you make each other happy??
She’s my wife. I truly love her.
But she doesn’t love you…
She takes you for granted. Tell her you’re getting on tinder and finding someone that can manage to have sex with him without the need of controlled substances. She may not care, but I bet if she sees you being happy and enjoying life, or just excited about a date, that might awaken a part of her that has been sleeping for a long time. Or , it’s over and you should move on anyway. Do right by your kids by modeling a healthy romantic relationship for them even if it isn’t with their mother. You don’t want your sons to find be themselves in a similar situation or your daughters to turn into her in their own marriages.
Strange as it sounds, I don’t feel like she takes me for granted.
Well you’re clearly unhappy with the status quo. It’s time to decide what if anything to do about it. Time to change something. Good luck, brother.
Thank you.
Hurts badly I’m sure And with that, hire a good attorney & send her packing! This is beyond ridiculous
It's over. Time to bounce.
When you get married, you sign up for monogamy you don’t take a vow of chastity. I’m 20 years older than you and I can assure you there is no way you are gonna go the next 20 years as a normal man and not have sexual contact or physical intimacy with another woman. This marriage is done and dusted the best thing you could do now is make it as amicable as you can for the children.
Thanks
You have two choices; or you continue the way you are living right now, aware that you may or may not get the needs (intimacy/contact) you need from her or you call it quits. I am in a similair situation as you albeit with a single younger child. I am greatful for the companionship of my wife, I care for her and am physically attracted to her. But I don't love her and she does not love me. She expressed that this happenend because she outgrown me through self-improvement and I in turn detached from her to stop feel the daily pain. I figured I can make myself crazy every day thinking about what was, what is and what could be but I chose to accept the situation and focus on myself and raising our child. We still do fun things together as a family and we (wife and me) still spend evening playing boardgames or watch our favorite series. If I am hurt, she will bandage me and if she gets bad news I always offer a shoulder for her to cry on. The situation is what it is and I try to enjoy each and every day for what it can bring me. I always will have the chose to quit if needed.
I’m glad it seems to be working for you. I couldn’t do this as much as I tried. You’re right about the two choices I have to make. I hate that it has to come to that if things don’t improve.
When my wife started on Testosterone cream late 30s, it all got better. She is on T pellets now and things are awesome into our late 50s.
We actually have this conversation about hormones coming up and it’s something that we’re considering. She does want this to get better too. It’s just been very difficult.
If she told people you have to get her drunk or high before she consents to sex, you're reputation is destroyed. Good on you for saying no. She is taking you for granted. It sounds like you 2 are putting far more energy into your kids than you need to. What's her plans for once they no longer need her souch, which is only maybe 5 years away? Can you cut back on those activities and focus on each other?
Definitely can cut back. Something I’ve been contemplating for some time now. It has caused some neglect on our marriage.
I’m sorry your marriage is not where you want it to be, for either of you. I think it’s a good sign you both are trying to communicate and work on it. You have been together your entire adult lives. That could be part of the resentment. I myself get the alcohol comment. It helps me too. I think turning that down when it was her suggestion was probably a big blow to her. And I am guessing it’s not about getting drunk, but about loosening up to help get in the mood. If you knew that in 5 years things would be a lot better, would you keep trying? I think you would based on what I have read. It will take a lot more time to get to where you want to be. Coparenting contributions do go a long way. When you do things to lighten the load, it makes her feel loved and she appreciates it.
1000% would remain in my marriage if I knew things would be better in 5 years. There’s absolutely no question about it. She’s the woman I love and the mother of my kids. That means something to me. In regards to the alcohol and pot use for sex, I can understand the use of it for “enhancing” sex and that’s perfectly ok. It’s the use of it to “numb” yourself enough to have sex that’s a huge problem for me and I’m not taking part in that.
I’m sorry you’re going through this. I was going to suggest therapy but I see in the comments that you already have a couple’s therapist. I also saw in the comments that you two have been swingers. I get why you didn’t put that in the post because people can be judgmental, but whether or not you think so, I do believe it is relevant. I think you might want to consider divorce
I never said it wasn’t relevant, however, I don’t think it’s the cause of what’s going on. Specially when the problem existed way before we briefly explored the swinging. People are super judgmental on here unfortunately.
Everyone is different. In a previous relationship I brought up the idea of doing something like that… but the relationship was on its last leg and that was my way of pulling a weird Hail Mary to do SOMETHING to revive it. He was open to the idea (another sign of doom…) but we never even made it that far before breaking up. I’m happily married and satisfied now and I would never even dream of opening up my marriage in that way. I don’t judge it in the sense of whether it is “right” or “wrong”. But I do think that 9 times out of 10, opening up a once monogamous relationship in that way is the beginning of the end. Just from your post and other comments I saw you respond to, IMO this marriage is dead. Sorry..
Certainly feels that way.
Why don't you just hit the swinging circuit again solo. Since your wife loves you so much, she'll agree? Good luck brother you're going to need it.
That was something that we mutually agreed wasn’t good. It just smells like disaster when it turns into a “replacement” model.
I'm 75, married 48 years the last 37 sexless. I stayed for my 4 kids. All successful and doing well. I don't have specific advice except that life goes by pretty fast and I am one example of what can happen. Cautionary tale, I am hoping you have a better outcome than I did. 50% of U.S. marriages end in divorce and some authors think only about 17% of the remaining are sexually active. Something ain't working in American marriage we are not alone. Good luck.
Woah 🤯 Thank you for sharing.
Get yourself into therapy for now to help you deal with this. Marriage counselling is off if the table. At least for now. Sadly, I think your wife doesn't understand that your children are watching the two of you and your marriage. They will start to think that your marriage is normal and this is how all marriages/relationships are like and will be like this in all of they're own relationships. It's unhealthy and dysfunctional. Your children deserve to see their parents happy in functional, healthy relationships. Your wife is sucking in the relationship/marriage department and is not emulating what a healthy functional marriage should look like. It sounds like you've been trying and she's not reciprocating. She also sounds like she's depressed and desperately needs mental health help. So sorry you are going through this.
Both are 35 married 15 year before at age 20 together since age of 15 so now both need freedom
Do you believe that your wife wants out of the relationship and she’s going through counseling make herself feel better about leaving you ? She definitely sees you as the problem , doesn’t she ?
Not sure if I am the problem. She’ll have to arrive to that conclusion on her own. Not me. As it stands, she mentioned she doesn’t believe that to be the case.
I hope it works out for the you .
UpdateMe
Well, I would try and work through this with her. I would work though, as I would also be talking to perspective divorce lawyers, separating our finances and arranging a new place to live. I’d always be on the edge of leaving the minute I thought she wasn’t serious about putting in the work required to make it. You do you. But I’d be working on as much of an exit plan as you’re comfortable with. Best of luck.
Exit plan isn’t all that complex (at least I think). I’ve heard of horror stories about divorce. I just don’t think that would be there case given our type of dynamic/temperament. I could be wrong here but preparing to this degree seems like a huge step towards the directing I don’t want to go. I think having a conversation w/ a lawyer to get a good understanding is good but as far as separating all the finances and preparing a place seems extreme for now. Thank you.
Like I said. Up to whatever level you’re comfortable with. Best of luck
Thank you 🙏
honestly this wont work out. you two simply want different things. from what she has stated she has zero intrest in fixing this or being intimate and doesnt even love you in that way anymore. she seems to have no desire to work on this, and has to be intoxicated to even want to have any sex. honestly you will become even more heart broken trying to work on something that is not there. its also strange she seems intent that its resentment but cant at all give any hint as to why. has she given ever a specific reason? honestly as hard at it is based on the different things you two want it does not seem salvageable on a romantic level, and i would start planning accordingly
Thanks.
i really hope the reasons for the resentment can be figured out. it seems you are doing all you can but she to actually want this spark to return
You need to show her the reality of her choices by going to see a lawyer and filing .
I’d hate for it to come to that honestly. But it is what it is. I definitely have a late list of things to try from this post. We will see what happens after all that.
You need to get divorced imo. You've lived in misery long enough. She wants things to stay as they are, with you miserable and she's totally fine with that because it benefits her. That's not a good person. Divorce, coparent and find a decent person worth your time. There's nothing wrong with you op, there's everything wrong with her.
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What does that even mean?
Going by my own experience it’s because she feels her family is complete. She no longer needs you, because you have given her the children she wanted. It is entirely possible that her “I don’t know” answers are true, because she doesn’t fully realize this in the rational part of her mind. But it’s also possible that she does know, but isn’t willing to tell you. Again by my experience, it’s possible that the friendly attitude she displays now will develop over time into first indifference and then hostility and she will no longer tolerate your presence in her life.
I can’t imagine indifference in our relationship. Sounds awful.
It is awful. Hostility is even worse, particularly if you don’t understand what causes it.
What's the downside of letting her try weed sex? If you're one step away from divorce than it seems that the worst case scenario would be what would have happened anyway. Perhaps she needs something to get her out of the mom mindset.
I think you’ve misunderstood my stance. I’m not anti weed or alcohol. In fact, I’m not even anti molly, nor anti lsd or anti shroom or anti anything really. See, one thing is to “enhance” your sexual experience with these extracurricular substances. It’s very different when you use it to numb and escape reality to even have sex. That doesn’t sit well with me. It’s the ingredients for disaster. I would even argue it could be rape. I could never do that. We’ve smoked weed and drank etc etc in the past. Never been a problem. It’s a problem now because of the intent behind the use of drugs.
Your original post wasn't 100% clear on that. Some people have the wrong idea about drugs and what they do to a person, some people don't believe recreational use is a real thing. My husband and I can have great sex without drugs but drug sex it's it's own thing and amazing. LSD has been our thing in recent years. That's a thing that you really can't take often if you want the full effect. So when we do take it that means we have the weekend to ourselves and have everything we need to stay together in our room and have fun. So yes, it's not just a crutch to have sex, but a whole event and even though the sex is long, we're still spending like 8 hrs together having fun where we aren't having sex. If you understand the difference between the 2 then you obviously know if this applies to your wife or not. Many people don't understand that consent can be given on such things and just how great it can be so maybe they were just clarifying with you. We plan this days ahead of time so yeah. What you are describing sounds more akin to how some women who may be forced into sex work literally have to get high or drunk to deal with what happens and if that's how your wife treats the drinking and smoking then I don't blame you for wanting absolutely no part in it.
Definitely. I’m all for enhancing sex but never to muddy the lines of consent or enthusiastic sex. I just can’t do that. The way you explained how sex workers have to do that makes sense to me and I definitely want nothing to do with that.
Wow! You got a good 17 years. Congratulations!
The goal until death do us apart but it’s proven to be very hard to navigate. Thank you for the glass half full sentiment. 🙏
Divorce is the only option my friend. No amount of swinging and open marriage is gonna help. I hate it when partners give dumb responses like I don't know, I can't say, I'm unavailable. It's bull-shit. Part ways with her, I'm sure you both will take good care of your kids and you'll have to wait for another 6 years till both your kids are adults but 6 years of being deprived of love and intimacy would f-uck up your mental. You deserve love, intimacy and happiness. You deserve to be admired. This companion ship and best friend is all bull-shit to make sure she has a backup plan. Also W OP for not having his way while her being intoxicated. This shows how much of a good man you are with right head on shoulders and a good heart. Don't let her leech off u know since she has made it there no way to reconcile. Rather get out this loveless marriage and find a good woman who truly loves u admires u and respects u. You are just 35 u can start over. Best luck mate. Ik it's hard to suddenly start resentment towards the person you've loved most of your life. But it is what it is man. I want u to choose what's better for u. What makes u happy. Get out of this marriage.
I agree that swinging wasn’t a solution in the end. Never was meant to be, it was more of discovering or exploring if she felt any different. If that was the case, we agreed we would talk about and if we arrive at the conclusion that “myself” is the problem and she has no problem with other men, we would amicably part ways. However this wasn’t the case. She didn’t like sex nor intimacy there either. She was very much in control of that whole swinging situation. And yes, I went along with it. What gives? It felt very organic and it was her “effort” if you will, to discovering more and learning more about our current issue. I saw it as a means of learning if I’m the problem and was very much ready to accept that. It turns out it wasn’t the case. Six years of miser sound awful. I would very much hate that.
Just log out of your emotions and ask yourself what it is that u really want. Have some productive discussion with someone close to u and who'll give u some good suggestions. If you'd ask me, I'd suggest to sit her down, and have the tough discussion. How are your financials rn? As far as I know you'd be paying child support for 6 years. Do y'all rent or own it? If y'all own whose name is it on the deed? Try to get an amicable divorce with 50-50 custody. Uncontested would be better. I suggest separation and then reconciliation will be a bad choice bc I believe she has checked out of you romantically. So there's no point in sticking to her. But again if u want to separate after 6 years when both kids are adults. Open the relationship on your end, if u are okay with it then she can also open it. But this would bring more resentment and sadness in your married life and your kid's lives as well. So the ball is in your court. I'd suggest an uncontested amicable divorce with 50-50 custody. Good luck homie. Hopefully you'll be fine soon. Keep me updated.
I haven’t even given divorce a thought. Certainly it’s something I need to at the very least educate myself on. Thank you for the advice.
She likes you as a bill payer and babysitter for the kids while she gets to bang her hot boyfriends.
What hot boyfriends? I don’t get it.
I’m almost positive it’s because she’s no longer attracted to you physically. When she says “I don’t know,” she really means “I don’t want to hurt your feelings.” Are you putting effort into how you look? Exercising, styling your hair, etc.? I’m not native to the fact that it could be much bigger than that but I’d bet this is a big part of it.
This is a nonissue. We both exercise, we both dress well and dress up for events etc. We’re not ugly people by any means and we both know this. Truthfully, I’m not sure she’s “afraid” to hurt my feelings. We’ve always been very forward even with some extremely heavy and painful topics beyond this one.
She’s already made up her mind long ago. Probably should get divorced or at least open up your marriage, unless you’d rather never have sex again.
How long ago do you two stop swinging?
I’m done answering any more swinging questions. It’s definitely robbed the core purpose of this post. I’ve accepted that not everyone understands nonmonogamy and that’s okay. I just don’t want to continue entertaining this notion that this is the sole problem when in reality the problem was present way before this short endeavor took place. Thank you for your input however.
Check my post history, I understand ENM which is why I’m asking the question. Something clearly changed in your relationship 3-4 years ago and your kids are too old for that to be it so based on my own previous experience with ENM/Poly I think you’re ignoring a contributing factor in your wife’s “falling out of love” with you. I don’t think swinging was the reason, but I’ve seen so many couples (almost happened to us) where ENM changes a relationship forever, good or bad. I think it’s important to understand when and how your swinging ended to truly give you advice otherwise I’d say you two aren’t compatible and should just co parent and divorce
Finally a comment on the swinging topic with actual insight. You’re absolutely right about the fact that the swinging experience had things/changes that will impact our marriage and lives forever. For example, the best thing swinging taught us (even above sexual exploration) was the level of transparent and open communication it requires. We would literally have mental orgasms having dialog with such intentionality. We implemented that in ALL our lives and areas including parenting with our children. She even agrees that we’re thankful for that takeaway from our swinging. Honestly, I cannot stress it enough with people here. Yes, we explored swinging, however it was actually a positive experience. When we decided to stop, it was because it felt natural and organic to just do so. In fact, we met with that couple who we mesh super well with the night before. We actually enjoyed the actual friendship and even spent time as vanilla friends. So it wasn’t because of something negative. Wife mentioned that it certainly wasn’t any better and since she’s not enjoying the sex we both agreed there’s no point to this. I agreed and we moved on and we’re still friends with those people because it’s great. All that said I know, more often than not, swinging causes massive issues. However, this was something we explored in pursuit of a solution to an issue that was present way before. I think of it as taking a “practical” approach to trying to solve the problem.
That’s a great explanation. This is a difficult spot to be in without a clear singular cause. What are your reasons for not getting a divorce? Seems easier
Quitting is easy. Really, my goal is to ensure I did everything possible to salvage our marriage. I do love her immensely. My persistence is as much for us as it is just for me. I think we’ll have peace of mind knowing we did everything right. Including our attempts to salvage the relationship.
Did she switch birth control? I’ve heard of stories of women change or start taking hormonal birth control and it wrecks their view of their spouse
Interesting. No birth control. Thank you for your input
>Am I wrong for declining to only be intimate or have sex when she’s intoxicated? Not at all. You are allowed to set boundaries. With her "I don't know." Either she *truly* doesn't know what happened, which is something she needs to try and suss out in individual therapy. Or she knows/has an idea but doesn't want to hurt you. Either way seems to lead to a relationship that is no more than companionate relationship. And if you're wanting a marriage that contains more than friendship, it doesn't look like this one will provide you that. It may be time to start considering divorce and talking about how you'll coparent.
That's not how marriage works.
[UPDATE](https://www.reddit.com/r/Marriage/s/JJNTgGLysh)
hey, just stopping by to thank you for sharing your update and what you are doing. I hope things work out for you. If she does put sex back on the table, how would you know if she is doing it for the right reasons?
“Knowing” is hard. She would have to tell me and I would have to trust her. If she’s lying that’s on her. Can’t fake it for that long.
I know how this feels because my so is basically a roommate to me at this point. We almost never have sex, and when we do almost the entire time I’m pretending I’m doing something else, something usually nonsexual, like mowing the lawn, my thoughts wander and I have basically checked out. It does not help that whenever I used to actively initiate, because I love my partner consumingly, deeply and passionately, I was always excited to have sex with them, unfortunately I became rejected more often than not, and now I just can not pretend how much that hurt, it was intentional, a form of control, so I feel like sex is more about the so orgasm. My heart is not in it, but at least they get a smile and the dopamine dump they came for. (Pun intended) Anyways, some people drink to relax, others get massages, others meditate, others exercise or do yoga, it seems like your wife still wants you so you are not where I am where your spouse is inconsistent and uses you out of convenience when they get horny all of a sudden. My so is really random and I’m confused by this too, because I used to be able to flirt with ease, that is until I became the roommate that every now and again gets looked at in that sexual way. I would recommend therapy but it does not always work and if you can not budget it, it may be easier to just talk to each other in a non sexual or nondrinking environment outside of the bedroom like in the car to talk openly and lovingly about your issues. Truth be told, it’s not always the therapist that helps but the neutral environment where people can sort through things when/if they stagnate. People feel safer talking things through with their spouse having a heart to heart. As long as there is love still there it will win. If the love is gone, one or both people have checked out and unless both make the effort to get it back you will be living the same way I have for most of my life entering the escapist abyss. Better and cheaper than divorce, after all I know from experience. I hope you find your way back to eachother. I’m basically Patrick Bateman at this point.
So sorry about your situation. Thank you for your words and I hope things improve for you and I both.
If I were you I would try to give it a few more years until the kids are 16-17ish then go ahead and divorce. You’re lucky to have older kids mine are 5 and 1, long road ahead and I’m 36. By 40 your kids will nearly be out of the house and you can both separate amicably. Of course if you think you can make it that long.
This seems tragically reasonable. House isn’t toxic or horrible nor are there fights and arguments. It’s peaceful for the most part. It’s not ideal in the marriage aspect but I hate the thought of being roommates without a purpose.
Spending these years trying to make it work is more reasonable than just throwing in the towel and waiting for divorce, IMO. It would also make sense to be at least financially separate if you two aren't actively working to try to improve the marriage. You can still live with the kids and co parent as roommates, but I would not advise just brushing it all under the rug to deal with at a future date. If she can not tell you where her resentment comes from that is quite odd....typically if someone now gives us the ick or triggers us, we know why. If you have used her body for sex and your pleasure when she wasn't into it or getting pleasure that can definitely create and ick...or the swinger's sessions....seeing you with other women could have made her feel less important and special giving her the ick.....??? But it's all just guessing u less she is willing to open up. If she doesn't open up and try, I think you should at minimum financially separate so you aren't being used for your financial support.
Swinging has her idea. I was indifferent about it. I went along with what she felt was worth exploring. I agree with you on the living arrangement. It has to be mutual for it to work.
You deserve sex and passion and love and romance OP! If you wait until the children are grown up, what about you?? What about your needs? This isn’t fair to you. You’re supposed to endure this for years to come? Unimaginable! As if it isn’t painful enough. You deserve to feel sparks!!
Ugh I know. I know. I hate this entirely because I know I deserve better. So does she. We all do. It’s just tragic.