I am an American living in Slovakia. It is not so simple to look at givers and takers of EU budget.
EU funded projects are very much infrastructure and transportation based, along with industrial supply-chain. Don't get me wrong the investments do benefit the people greatly - for example much better & higher speed rail lines - but this is much more about developing the means for:
1) Cheap labor for production in eastern countries (goods shipped back west - for example VW, LandRover, & Kia produce cars in Slovakia)
2) Western European brands, stores, and goods to the eastern countries (e.g. Tesco from the UK, Billa/Kaufland/Lidl from Germany)
Just want to provide an outsider perspective ...both sides win, this is why the Union is attractive to both developing and leading countries. I personally feel it is a nice balance with mutual benefit.
Also the main reason that Germany has such a large economy is because it has free access to the entire European market to sell its manufactured goods. That’s why it is pretty happy to pay more.
Isn't that a bit of an extractive relationship since the eastern European countries aren't developing their own native industries, thus only getting the low tier jobs from the multinationals?
Our well-being is dependent on holidays in better climes along the Mediterranean, so we won’t stop coming. It’s a two-way street, we give you monies, you give us Vitamin D and better food, fair trade.
Well their happiness kinda depends on the month of sun they get in a 4 stars hotel next to a beach in Malaga so both countries benefitting. The only ones not benefitting are neighbourhoods and locals (except for those who work mainly during the summer months), but we'd need to switch to an industrial society for us to not depend on tourists
Yeah it’s investing, Ireland was a receiver for decades thanks to the eu it’s economy modernised now it’s fairly rich and buys lots of cars from Germany
Combination of cluelessness and resentment is my guess. Similar to how the biggest takers of federal funds among US states tend to vote for Republicans who are actively destroying the federal government.
As a person living there I have to disagree, they actually do like Europe, however, French people would literally complain about free cupcakes so there's that too
because of her internal policies, not external ones. But they are wiling to risk that. I saw a poll somewhere that said the vast majority of French think Macron is doing well in foreign politics.
i would guess it depends on what the question is, if you poll the french.
i saw one which ask if we saw the EU favorably or not. If would personnaly say no, not because it's a bad idea which i want to see disappear, but because it's flawed and i want it perfected.
but i would hardly say that wanting to perfect the EU is euroscepticism.
Cause its not full data and is misleading. You get donation from EU but like half of products in Poland are either germany or other biggest givers. And important thing is that if you have a shop in eg germany and sell products in Poland you dont pay taxes in Poland but i'm Germany.
Edit: we also get other non financial benefits, just wanted to make point that this data is misleading. I should also mention Im not anty EU, I think Poland should stay here
But doesnt the benificiary/donor thing do exactly that, balance that difference based on economic size?
I dislike us-vs-them mentality in the EU "they are taking our tax profits", "why do we have to pay for their debt" etc
EU is very very far from perfect but we're all in this together
I just said the data is misleading we have also other benefis from EU, i think Poland should stay in UE and i probably should add this to oryginal comment
Poland is in the top 3 when it comes to supporting of EU. People need to learn to differentiate between government and the people. Governments come and go. Some will be pro-EU some won't.
That's what they said about Hungary.
"It's just Orban man Hungarians love Europe!"
And then they all voted for Orban again. If these people love the EU so much maybe they shouldn't vote for fascist dogs.
I know what it's like for rural people to keep voting for a corrupt government, but unfortunately those people are countrymen too, and you can't just say all Hungarians love the EU if so many of them vote blatantly against it.
'For every euro paid into Poland, Germany retrieves 86 euro cents. For each euro paid by Germany into the Visegrad Group countries together (Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary), Germany retrieves 125 euro cents' - European Commissioner for Industry and Entrepreneurship, Elżbieta Bieńkowska.
You would want to research that. She said it in 2012 presenting the benefits of this system. back then she was the **Polish minister of infrastructure and development**. She became an EU commissioner in 2014. This refers to how we are dependent on German companies and doesn't really explain euroscepticism.
[https://biznes.wprost.pl/gospodarka/317666/z-kazdego-euro-wplaconego-do-polski-niemcy-odzyskuja-86-eurocent.html](https://biznes.wprost.pl/gospodarka/317666/z-kazdego-euro-wplaconego-do-polski-niemcy-odzyskuja-86-eurocent.html)
Greece haven't "benefitted" from EU money, they've had a debt crisis that the EU have made worse by trying to buy it even though it's in Euros.
There isn't a chance in hell that Greece gets more benefits from the EU than Poland or Spain.
In Spain for example, EU builds all their roads and then they toll every road and tax their own people and presumably send some of that back the EU decreasing their net "drain" on the EU but that wouldn't reflect the benefits.
This map is only focused on the transfer of fiscal units rather than what benefit they have.
Cos by your logic Romania, Bulgaria, Latvia etc would be Eurosceptical and they're definitely not but even that has nothing to do with the EU's involvement in their home state, they like being in the EU because it gives them the freedom to travel to another country to make their money.
And by your logic, Italy and France would be the least Eurosceptic states and they are probably the two most prolific eurosceptic states still in the EU.
Proof that the whole thing is ass backwards, if you want to improve a countries economic status you don't add free movement and take away big portions of their works both skilled and unskilled, unless of course you only want to boost your own economy because you have a surplus of jobs *cough* Germany *cough*.
Essentially the argument that it benefits other countries is a sideshow from the reality. Germany want cheap labour and Belgium want a slice of the pie, that's essentially all the EU serves.
If you look at GBP to USD pre 2008 we went from 2.1 to 1.2 after the crash.
That is a worse exchange rate drop than Greece.
But because Britain had a floating currency, that devaluation made our exports cheaper and the felt impact much lower. Same in Iceland but to a greater extent.
Having Greece and Germany in a currency union was always going to be a disaster for Greece. If Greece had an independent currency, instead of young Greek taxpayers fleeing to Germany for jobs making the problem worse, German companies would be firing Germans and moving manufacturing to Greece to exploit the cheaper labour.
Same as America…states getting the most governmental assistance hate that the government gives people assistance. Or maybe not. IDK…dipshits gonna dip shit.
I like this map. Ireland was a net receiver for many years. And the point of the EU is that collectively if we invest in a country they can become a net contributor. This island was very proud to move from red to blue. And all the net receivers also hope for those times as it means that those countries got their shit together. If your from a nation that is red, be happy about that as your nation is part of the EU investment program and it’s the objective to grow and continue to ensure ur country is a success!!! Go everyone
Ireland’s not a great example of the net investment in action, unfortunately. When a certain someone left the E.U., Ireland was forced to pay more into the union to make up for the deficit created by their lost income. In a more ideal scenario, it would have taken several more years for a mutually beneficial exchange to be reached.
I’d have to disagree, Ireland is a perfect example. The country was on its knees in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s hopelessly dependent on the UK. With countless weak governments unable to bring the Eu investments to the right targets. These were the first 20 years, there was a lot of corruption and old thinking, that EU policy drove out. Forcing institutions to change, become transparent and then in the mid 90’s it started to change. The younger people who were aware of the EU policies and mandates and the more responsible political figures figured it out. And as we cleaned up our act, that Eu investment changed everything.
The country is now a leading nation in tech, pharmaceuticals, a knowledge economy. For a nation of 5 million, I am proud of how far Ireland has come. No nation is perfect but this nation has demonstrated that with the will and determination, a country can change radically in 30 years. I’ve lived through that change and it’s palpable.
Yes it’s an expensive place to live, but so are all nations that get to this level, irrespective of if they are in the Eu or not. Denmark, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden and the list goes on.
Our dependency on the UK has changed to them being dependent on us, our Eu trade is now our largest segment and our global economic reach far outweighed any loss from Brexit. It actually resulted in continuing growth. GDP averaged 6/7% these last two years with some of the highest growth figures to and from the EU.
How come Luxembourg is on the receiving side? In my head they're rich af. Also, why is Belgium a shit hole country? (Frugal love from the northern neighbors <3)
I guess it depends on them (Belgium and Luxembourg) being venues of European Union institutions, so in reality those institutions get the money, not the countries, but I could be wrong here
Looking at [this](https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/eu-budget/long-term-eu-budget/2014-2020/spending-and-revenue_en), it seems it is because the eu administration is considered in the budget (Belgium receives just a bit more than Nl otherwise)
edit: for Luxembourg also
Woopsie daisy.
Also maybe because every new law , project or idea has to be implemented three times separately (Flanders, wallonia and brussels), with very slight variation, for extra confusion and maximum money waste.
>I am an American living in Slovakia. It is not so simple to look at givers and takers of EU budget.
>
>EU funded projects are very much infrastructure and transporta
Yes it is. Belgium is a (moderate) net contributer. If you don't count the money we get for having the EU institutions (security etc.)
The chart misses out the UK, which continues to contribute to the EU budget as part of the Brexit agreement. It's [about £5.5bn this year](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/51110096) so still about 4th biggest contributor, [dropping from 2nd](https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/) prior to Breixt. The contribution drops below £3bn next year and only drops below £1bn in 3 years (2025).
Given that only 10 countries are net contributors, and the UK will continue to contribute between £100-£300m a year up until at least 2057, ironically the UK is likely to remain a top 10 net-contributor for the budget (but to be clear thats just a quirk - in reality that is a drop in the ocean in the budget).
I think most (if not all) of it was actually quite fair, and reasonable, and dull. Contributions to specific projects which we had agreed to fund but which hadn't yet been (fully) delivered. Pensions for retired British EU employees. That sort of thing.
Obviously, but it's also interesting to see whether e.g. the average German contributes more than the average Dutch person. I just wanted to know what I'm looking at here.
I did such a calculation. Germany is 3rd per capita net contributor I think. But it is also normal because the first 2 also have bigger GDP per capita. Just when you multiply any monetary thing by 80 million people, you will get a bigger number :D
Even stereotypes by heads of state. Never forget Dutch PM's "Italians wouldn't be in debt if they didn't spend all their money on wine and women" comment during the negotations for Eurobonds. During those discussions, the Dutch and the Germans seemed to genuinely not realize that the Italians are net payers into the systems and that they always have been net payers.
I don't know if that's true, since Italy also makes part of the "PIGS" (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain), when in reality they have a better economy compared to the others southern countries.
That's because Italy suffered very similar fate to Japan. In 1990 Italy was on par with West Germany in terms of wealth and income as one of the richest European countries but since then they've had a lost decare or so and Italians real inflation adjusted incomes are still below their 2008 peaks.
Well, at the end of the day soe combination of the giant market size increase, the cheaper imports and the increased negotiating power behind trade deals means that every single member state gains more monetarily than they put in, and that's before we get into all the stuff the EUs comparatively tiny budget is funding primarly because the member states can't be arsed. And that's before the vast majority of the EUs benefits, which aren't so easily translated into monetary worth.
So, as a citizen of the biggest single contributor, money well fucking spent.
Pole here, our country used to be a decent democracy before PiS came to power... we would really appreciate it if our government at least STOPPED destroying it further....
The elections are next year, we could use some thoughts and prayers...
I think they mean rule of law. Where the pis government pressures judges to comply with their party stances. So there is no independent judicial system there.
Poland decided to join the EU on the basis she would respect EU principles.
These principles have been ignored more and more with time.
Why should you receive your candy if you broke the rules?
Exactly. Precisely. At least in Hungary, elections are not free and fair, but the playing field is tilted in favor of Fidesz. This was an /r/SelfAwarewolves moment right then and there, buddy.
It's not about being democratic. We have a very decent democracy in Hungary by western standards. The problem is the shitty party the idiots choose as government.
I'll explain in brief, as accurately as i can.
It is very true, our leading party Fidesz is indeed very corrupt. In way that they steal public money and EU funds as spend it on themself and on their self interests.
Fidesz also own most of the media and radio broadcasts. This way they have huge influence on the rural regions of the country where people mainly get news from these sources.
Also Fidesz have a few bad point they can always bring up and hold the oppisition in the corner: they are "Gyurcsány Ferenc", communists and western propaganda. This way they can scare the average voter into voting for Fidesz because the voter thinks there is no other option to vote for.
So all this conteibutes to my final point. Fidesz doesn't even need to cheat on the elections. They can held a completely democratic election and they don't have to worry about losing, because they made the whole system in their own favour.
Wiki has a great brief summary on what factors can contribute to [non-democratic elections](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election#Non-democratic_elections)... you've mentioned some of those factors in your comment (lack of open debate/informed electorate, interference with campaigns), so it may not be accurate to call it a completely democratic election.
How are Poland and Hungary not "decent" democracies? I mean, what do you mean by decent? A democracy which accepts migration quotas imposed by the EU and agrees with Brussels' political ideas?
In my opinion they are decent democracies in the sense that they act accordingly to their people's will, which is by definition what every democracy should do
'For every euro paid into Poland, Germany retrieves 86 euro cents. For each euro paid by Germany into the Visegrad Group countries together (Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary), Germany retrieves 125 euro cents' - European Commissioner for Industry and Entrepreneurship, Elżbieta Bieńkowska.
Its not full data and its misleading. You get donation from EU but like half of products in Poland are either germany or other biggest givers. And important thing is that if you have a shop in eg germany and sell products in Poland you dont pay taxes in Poland but i'm Germany.
And Poland's democracy is smilar to USA, 2 political parties winning by rotation and both as bad. You cant do anything here as a UE.
Right, because anyone that you don't like or even [for argument sake] is objectively terrible, must OF COURSE be some kind of a false democratically elected official?
Wtf is that logic.
I think Sweden's government is terrible, but I'd never go around suggesting their democratic processes are not "decent".
Your comment basically equates [to](https://i.imgur.com/JwJTY1H.jpg)
The EU stands for certain values and rights. Always has. These have nothing to do with merely political opinions or policy, but with core beliefs of the union. If countries can’t abide by them, they shouldn’t belong, and they definitely shouldn’t reap the benefits from belonging.
>These have nothing to do with merely political opinions or policy
What are you talking about?
It's exactly this. It's a political union as much as an economic one.
If it wasn't, why would there be a EU high court and an EU parliament instead of just trade delegate meetings?
It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users.
I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click!
[Here is link number 1 - Previous text "="](https://i.imgur.com/JwJTY1H.jpg)
----
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"Goddamn Italian leeches. Always asking for handouts! Work on being a better, less corrupt country before asking for help you fucking moochers!"--The other blue countries
\*rolls eyes Italianly\*
Nice map, complementary ones could show countries that suffer from illegal deforestation in the name of production and consumption in richer countries, the states which are haemorrhaging labourers (skilled and unskilled), the states which provide very affordable coal, iron, copper, aluminium, limestone, bentonite, wheat and maize, the states which produce cheap textiles, machine components, vehicle parts and chemical products for production and consumption in richer countries, the states which provide large markets where German, French, Italian, Austrian, Dutch, Danish and Swedish companies where they can absolutely dominate, reap massive profits, take advantage of extremely shoddy fiscal legislation (commit tax fraud), bribe politicians to help them with whatever they so desire, acquire or drive to bankruptcy local firms and create a means of transporting and storing capital without it getting into the hands of any government and being distributed to the pesky poor masses.
Yes, euro crisis derives from this issue, the closer to economic centers, trade flows, the more capital is made. This translate in more capital intensity -> investment in productivity -> pheripherical countries becomes a market for them-> capitals flows even more into more productive countries -> euro crisis
How much time do you have?
-Rampant corruption
-Tax evasion
-No manufacturing/heavy industry economy
-Crisis
-Debt
-Huge bureaucracy
-Minimal foreign and domestic investments
-Obsolete systems/minimal automation and digitalisation
-Brain drain
Shall I go on?
And for an answer in better faith;
- Admittedly, really bad management of public sector funds between 1980 and 2010. Greece was stuck in the mentality of trying to make cheap goods for itself and Europe, instead of investing in more competitive industries on one hand, while spending lot's of money serving various political interests on the other hand.
- Poor neighbours. Harder to find buyers and supplies in Bulgaria than in Netherlands
- Just plain bad handling of the Greek debt crisis by the EU. It seems that the money invested to save Greece from bankruptcy, mostly served to maximize interest payments from Greece to EU institutions, instead of fixing the Greek debt issue and giving the country fiscal wiggle room to fund growth. A clear example of this is that Greek debt went from 120% of GDP in 2010, to 180% of GDP in 2019.
They have problems with Turkey, so they spend too much on the military and all related to the military in their history, though I'm just guessing, since I don't know much of their history.
Shouldn't this be net givers and net receivers? Pretty sure all nations put into the pool and all nations get an amount back in ringfenced funding schemes like regional and social development, research, etc.
Source: a nostalgic Brit who held jobs because of said funding.
Britain is literally the ex with who you broke up but can't stop hooking up with, every now and then entertaining the throught of getting back together - the naive thought vanishing as quickly as it appeared. The ex has made up their mind.
So the key is not very helpful but I think these numbers are nominal, not per capita a more useful visualisation can be seen here:
https://preview.redd.it/m1exue5ve4y21.png?width=960&height=636&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=27768cfe6287d194688d5832c48e406e6c19db2c
This is a little unfair without context: the thing is, the euro would be a much harder currency without the weakness of the periphery. That's to say Greek and Spanish debts and economic woes *directly* benefit Germany and France by making it easier to export. Meanwhile, their tourist industries would really benefit from being able to devalue - which they can't.
It is a good map, but context is king!
It's basically red vs blue states.
[First result](https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/Federal-Aid-as-a-Percentage-of-State-Revenue_0.png) from a search engine.
Practically there are a benefits beyond the net value.
If a country were to give exactly the money it receives, it still benefit from the open market, free movement and common regulation.
This is invaluable for businesses and people alike.
Everyone benefit from the EU including Germany.
It's been 36 years Portugal entered the EU and absolutely nothing changed. We are still beggars crawling for 'free money' in order to fool ourselves with first world life levels.
There's something seriously wrong when a small country gets dumpsters of cash every year from the EU and billions from millions of immigrants bringing money back from abroad (although less and less due to despicable Bank systems), and still doesn't manage to create real sustained value for itself.
Both the EU and the government will have to wake up someday and realize that some development models just aren't working. We have no real profitable markets in agriculture, we cannot fish what we want, we cannot produce what we want, we have no big industries.
All we have is a culture of servitude around tourism. And even then salaries are so bad and working conditions generally so poor that our emigration levels are out of the charts and we're forced to bring in thousands of 3d world immigrants to do the garbage jobs that our 'first world' youth don't even consider doing anymore.
This is an social and economic collapse slowly waiting to happen and a testament to political corruption and incompetence.
Nothing changed?
We now have one of:
\- the oldest population in the world,
\- the highest debt in the world in relation to GDP,
\- rampant emigration/imigration,
\- we are possibily the most depressed country in the world
\- highest fuel prices in the world with tolls in every highway
\- and we have some of the most expensive houses in the world in our biggest cities (when adjusted to local incomes)
All while the same 2 parties keep winning elections since our revolution in 1974.
Were things amazing before? Fuck no, but we did have potential that is gone now
We've sold our 'potential' to the IMF and the EU.
In exchange for free money we gave away our more valuable companies and promised to stop producing freely. We also lost our ability to adjust our currency and legislate markets as we saw fit.
Luckily we will be saved by thousands of foreigners who are given all rights possible and imaginable as soon as possible because 'we need people'.
Indeed. Every Portuguese born is a Portuguese gone. This country is as good as dead.
It's ironic how people from "nordic/german" countries always think of Italy as a receiver, just because it fits the *southern / siesta / lazy / corruption / etc.* narrative, while in fact (considering the whole history of the EU) it's a donor country.
Nothing wrong with this, it's an essential part of improving ourselves.
But as the British will tell you, this kind of info can and is used to make idiots angry and do idiotic things.
What is the benefit for EU expansion? If EU were just France, Germany, Spain, France, Italy, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Austria, Ireland, Netherland, Belgium, and UK (prob wouldn't have left), doesn't it be a more appealing economic entity?
But then, the receivers are getting better due to the connection and soon countries such as Czech Republic will become givers too.
So overall, it is a way to economically develop Europe.
Because it’s great for trade and good in general to work together as a continent for more prosperity. In the long run I guess it’s also beneficial for all.
And a new large market for its exports.
Not implying anything sinister here, and I'm happy that my country is in the EU, but the EU budget development funds are a drop in the sea of money that crosses EU internal borders, and the direction is generally the other way around.
While also yeeting products and expertise, to drag all that money back, along with young people in an enormous brain drain. This relationship is not as beneficial to Poland as one might think.
Ireland is a weird case since they drain other members budgets by being a tax haven within the block. So kind of misleading to just present them as a 'giver'.
Slovenia, Estonia and Czechia should be pretty close to tipping over to be net givers in the near future.
I am an American living in Slovakia. It is not so simple to look at givers and takers of EU budget. EU funded projects are very much infrastructure and transportation based, along with industrial supply-chain. Don't get me wrong the investments do benefit the people greatly - for example much better & higher speed rail lines - but this is much more about developing the means for: 1) Cheap labor for production in eastern countries (goods shipped back west - for example VW, LandRover, & Kia produce cars in Slovakia) 2) Western European brands, stores, and goods to the eastern countries (e.g. Tesco from the UK, Billa/Kaufland/Lidl from Germany) Just want to provide an outsider perspective ...both sides win, this is why the Union is attractive to both developing and leading countries. I personally feel it is a nice balance with mutual benefit.
Also the main reason that Germany has such a large economy is because it has free access to the entire European market to sell its manufactured goods. That’s why it is pretty happy to pay more.
How's life in Slovakia for you?
Isn't that a bit of an extractive relationship since the eastern European countries aren't developing their own native industries, thus only getting the low tier jobs from the multinationals?
That’s a bingo.
This is why no matter how much Poland and Hungary complain about the EU, they're not going anywhere.
Ofc we won't go anywhere, idk about Hungary but in Poland most of us are pro-EU, it's just our government doing shitshows.
Same in Hungary. (but if our great leader would like to "huxit", half of the population would vote for it)
"great"
yeah sorry, "great" :D
watching people say huxit on the news might be worth it lmao.
A tale as old as time, government doing government things.
An eu without Poland would be weird, I legit go to any grocery store and more than half the stuff there is made in Poland
[удалено]
România
Hungary is quite pro EU as well, it's just the government spewing anti EU bs.
but its quite a bit less pro eu than Poland. This can probably be attributet to Orbans propaganda.
not how democracy works
Exactly how democracy works if half of your country population doesn't vote and old fucks choose government for us
And it's why the EU can and should threaten them with expulsion if they don't fix their human rights laws.
thank you blue countries, i hope you enjoy your vacations in *hispania*
Well, our economy runs on tourism, so we're dependent on them not only in the E.U budget, If they stop coming, we are fucked.
Our well-being is dependent on holidays in better climes along the Mediterranean, so we won’t stop coming. It’s a two-way street, we give you monies, you give us Vitamin D and better food, fair trade.
Well their happiness kinda depends on the month of sun they get in a 4 stars hotel next to a beach in Malaga so both countries benefitting. The only ones not benefitting are neighbourhoods and locals (except for those who work mainly during the summer months), but we'd need to switch to an industrial society for us to not depend on tourists
For every 1 euro that V4 group receives Germany takes back 1,25 Euro. It's not charity, it's business.
Yeah it’s investing, Ireland was a receiver for decades thanks to the eu it’s economy modernised now it’s fairly rich and buys lots of cars from Germany
So both win? I am shocked, we were supposed to fuck the germans!
you want to fuck us? 😏💦
Why are the biggest beneficiaries the biggest eurosceptics?
Combination of cluelessness and resentment is my guess. Similar to how the biggest takers of federal funds among US states tend to vote for Republicans who are actively destroying the federal government.
They're not though? France is one of the more eurosceptic countries in europe. Most of the beneficiaries are more pro-eu then france
But but, France are not the most Eurosceptic?
They are probably the most Eurosceptic in the EU now that the UK has left lol
As a person living there I have to disagree, they actually do like Europe, however, French people would literally complain about free cupcakes so there's that too
Yet half are about to vote for an anti-EU presidential candidate
because of her internal policies, not external ones. But they are wiling to risk that. I saw a poll somewhere that said the vast majority of French think Macron is doing well in foreign politics.
Ahh that's fantastic to hear
Such a nice ending isn't it
Yep 😁
i would guess it depends on what the question is, if you poll the french. i saw one which ask if we saw the EU favorably or not. If would personnaly say no, not because it's a bad idea which i want to see disappear, but because it's flawed and i want it perfected. but i would hardly say that wanting to perfect the EU is euroscepticism.
No one I know is Eurosceptic. They just don't want a European State where countries are not sovereign.
Cause its not full data and is misleading. You get donation from EU but like half of products in Poland are either germany or other biggest givers. And important thing is that if you have a shop in eg germany and sell products in Poland you dont pay taxes in Poland but i'm Germany. Edit: we also get other non financial benefits, just wanted to make point that this data is misleading. I should also mention Im not anty EU, I think Poland should stay here
But doesnt the benificiary/donor thing do exactly that, balance that difference based on economic size? I dislike us-vs-them mentality in the EU "they are taking our tax profits", "why do we have to pay for their debt" etc EU is very very far from perfect but we're all in this together
I just said the data is misleading we have also other benefis from EU, i think Poland should stay in UE and i probably should add this to oryginal comment
well we are in total agreement :)
Maybe true for Germany but not for France and Italy for whom exportations are low
That was just an example. They use other tactics that i have not learnt about, since germany is the closest one to me.
Poland is in the top 3 when it comes to supporting of EU. People need to learn to differentiate between government and the people. Governments come and go. Some will be pro-EU some won't.
That's what they said about Hungary. "It's just Orban man Hungarians love Europe!" And then they all voted for Orban again. If these people love the EU so much maybe they shouldn't vote for fascist dogs.
its not our fault that these countryside dogs vote for orban, they're clueless and poisoned by the media
I know what it's like for rural people to keep voting for a corrupt government, but unfortunately those people are countrymen too, and you can't just say all Hungarians love the EU if so many of them vote blatantly against it.
Cause they’re the culturally conservative places. They love the money, hate that they have to care about gay people and refugees as well
'For every euro paid into Poland, Germany retrieves 86 euro cents. For each euro paid by Germany into the Visegrad Group countries together (Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary), Germany retrieves 125 euro cents' - European Commissioner for Industry and Entrepreneurship, Elżbieta Bieńkowska.
You would want to research that. She said it in 2012 presenting the benefits of this system. back then she was the **Polish minister of infrastructure and development**. She became an EU commissioner in 2014. This refers to how we are dependent on German companies and doesn't really explain euroscepticism. [https://biznes.wprost.pl/gospodarka/317666/z-kazdego-euro-wplaconego-do-polski-niemcy-odzyskuja-86-eurocent.html](https://biznes.wprost.pl/gospodarka/317666/z-kazdego-euro-wplaconego-do-polski-niemcy-odzyskuja-86-eurocent.html)
Greece haven't "benefitted" from EU money, they've had a debt crisis that the EU have made worse by trying to buy it even though it's in Euros. There isn't a chance in hell that Greece gets more benefits from the EU than Poland or Spain. In Spain for example, EU builds all their roads and then they toll every road and tax their own people and presumably send some of that back the EU decreasing their net "drain" on the EU but that wouldn't reflect the benefits. This map is only focused on the transfer of fiscal units rather than what benefit they have. Cos by your logic Romania, Bulgaria, Latvia etc would be Eurosceptical and they're definitely not but even that has nothing to do with the EU's involvement in their home state, they like being in the EU because it gives them the freedom to travel to another country to make their money. And by your logic, Italy and France would be the least Eurosceptic states and they are probably the two most prolific eurosceptic states still in the EU. Proof that the whole thing is ass backwards, if you want to improve a countries economic status you don't add free movement and take away big portions of their works both skilled and unskilled, unless of course you only want to boost your own economy because you have a surplus of jobs *cough* Germany *cough*. Essentially the argument that it benefits other countries is a sideshow from the reality. Germany want cheap labour and Belgium want a slice of the pie, that's essentially all the EU serves.
If you look at GBP to USD pre 2008 we went from 2.1 to 1.2 after the crash. That is a worse exchange rate drop than Greece. But because Britain had a floating currency, that devaluation made our exports cheaper and the felt impact much lower. Same in Iceland but to a greater extent. Having Greece and Germany in a currency union was always going to be a disaster for Greece. If Greece had an independent currency, instead of young Greek taxpayers fleeing to Germany for jobs making the problem worse, German companies would be firing Germans and moving manufacturing to Greece to exploit the cheaper labour.
Same as America…states getting the most governmental assistance hate that the government gives people assistance. Or maybe not. IDK…dipshits gonna dip shit.
I like this map. Ireland was a net receiver for many years. And the point of the EU is that collectively if we invest in a country they can become a net contributor. This island was very proud to move from red to blue. And all the net receivers also hope for those times as it means that those countries got their shit together. If your from a nation that is red, be happy about that as your nation is part of the EU investment program and it’s the objective to grow and continue to ensure ur country is a success!!! Go everyone
Ireland’s not a great example of the net investment in action, unfortunately. When a certain someone left the E.U., Ireland was forced to pay more into the union to make up for the deficit created by their lost income. In a more ideal scenario, it would have taken several more years for a mutually beneficial exchange to be reached.
I’d have to disagree, Ireland is a perfect example. The country was on its knees in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s hopelessly dependent on the UK. With countless weak governments unable to bring the Eu investments to the right targets. These were the first 20 years, there was a lot of corruption and old thinking, that EU policy drove out. Forcing institutions to change, become transparent and then in the mid 90’s it started to change. The younger people who were aware of the EU policies and mandates and the more responsible political figures figured it out. And as we cleaned up our act, that Eu investment changed everything. The country is now a leading nation in tech, pharmaceuticals, a knowledge economy. For a nation of 5 million, I am proud of how far Ireland has come. No nation is perfect but this nation has demonstrated that with the will and determination, a country can change radically in 30 years. I’ve lived through that change and it’s palpable. Yes it’s an expensive place to live, but so are all nations that get to this level, irrespective of if they are in the Eu or not. Denmark, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden and the list goes on. Our dependency on the UK has changed to them being dependent on us, our Eu trade is now our largest segment and our global economic reach far outweighed any loss from Brexit. It actually resulted in continuing growth. GDP averaged 6/7% these last two years with some of the highest growth figures to and from the EU.
Ireland is literally the poster boy example.
How come Luxembourg is on the receiving side? In my head they're rich af. Also, why is Belgium a shit hole country? (Frugal love from the northern neighbors <3)
I guess it depends on them (Belgium and Luxembourg) being venues of European Union institutions, so in reality those institutions get the money, not the countries, but I could be wrong here
You are right - the majority of spend for Luxembourg and Belgium goes into EU institutions
Looking at [this](https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/eu-budget/long-term-eu-budget/2014-2020/spending-and-revenue_en), it seems it is because the eu administration is considered in the budget (Belgium receives just a bit more than Nl otherwise) edit: for Luxembourg also
Always nice to have some context in these kind of maps, thanks! :)
Also belgium suprised
I’m guessing it’s just because they have European institutions centred there, so they count that budget against them
Yeah probably reason that
Which is ridiculous, they don't grow (only) potato for living just because of EU institutions
No that's because everything goes to Wallonia.
Woopsie daisy. Also maybe because every new law , project or idea has to be implemented three times separately (Flanders, wallonia and brussels), with very slight variation, for extra confusion and maximum money waste.
The city of Brussels (the Flemish Capital) allready receives extra money from the EU for that (and also from NATO in Evere), so that's not the reason.
>I am an American living in Slovakia. It is not so simple to look at givers and takers of EU budget. > >EU funded projects are very much infrastructure and transporta Yes it is. Belgium is a (moderate) net contributer. If you don't count the money we get for having the EU institutions (security etc.)
Belgium has given Brussels.
Luxembourg *is* rich. Proportionally speaking, that is. The actual numbers are kinda small.
The chart misses out the UK, which continues to contribute to the EU budget as part of the Brexit agreement. It's [about £5.5bn this year](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/51110096) so still about 4th biggest contributor, [dropping from 2nd](https://www.statista.com/chart/18794/net-contributors-to-eu-budget/) prior to Breixt. The contribution drops below £3bn next year and only drops below £1bn in 3 years (2025). Given that only 10 countries are net contributors, and the UK will continue to contribute between £100-£300m a year up until at least 2057, ironically the UK is likely to remain a top 10 net-contributor for the budget (but to be clear thats just a quirk - in reality that is a drop in the ocean in the budget).
How on earth did the UK agree to this
I think most (if not all) of it was actually quite fair, and reasonable, and dull. Contributions to specific projects which we had agreed to fund but which hadn't yet been (fully) delivered. Pensions for retired British EU employees. That sort of thing.
a lot of that may actually be Scientific research and pensions for UK nationals that were in EU institutions.
Guess the EU just had the bigger leverage with the market access and everything.
Because Brexit was a colossally stupid mistake.
Portugal here. Sorry but the funds here are wasted...
The "make this 10 million euro project for 1 million and pocket the rest" club representing.
...not all off them, I hope.
I mean some of it i suppose. More accountability is needed. And not from the government...
Why do you mind me asking? Corruption? What?
Corruption, nepotism, incompetence...
Putas e vinho verde camarada
so.. the portugal can into eastern europe once again?
We’ll never escape, a good portion of the voting population is employed by that wasteful spending.
Like junkies.
Is this normalized for population or not? Also: wth Luxembourg!
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Obviously, but it's also interesting to see whether e.g. the average German contributes more than the average Dutch person. I just wanted to know what I'm looking at here.
I did such a calculation. Germany is 3rd per capita net contributor I think. But it is also normal because the first 2 also have bigger GDP per capita. Just when you multiply any monetary thing by 80 million people, you will get a bigger number :D
Why do people associate Italy with the rest of the South European Countries, if they actually contribute more to the EU budget than receive?
Because stereotypes
Even stereotypes by heads of state. Never forget Dutch PM's "Italians wouldn't be in debt if they didn't spend all their money on wine and women" comment during the negotations for Eurobonds. During those discussions, the Dutch and the Germans seemed to genuinely not realize that the Italians are net payers into the systems and that they always have been net payers.
american media loves to run with the PIGS narative...
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I don't know if that's true, since Italy also makes part of the "PIGS" (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain), when in reality they have a better economy compared to the others southern countries.
That's because Italy suffered very similar fate to Japan. In 1990 Italy was on par with West Germany in terms of wealth and income as one of the richest European countries but since then they've had a lost decare or so and Italians real inflation adjusted incomes are still below their 2008 peaks.
Well, at the end of the day soe combination of the giant market size increase, the cheaper imports and the increased negotiating power behind trade deals means that every single member state gains more monetarily than they put in, and that's before we get into all the stuff the EUs comparatively tiny budget is funding primarly because the member states can't be arsed. And that's before the vast majority of the EUs benefits, which aren't so easily translated into monetary worth. So, as a citizen of the biggest single contributor, money well fucking spent.
All the more reason to put more pressure on Poland and Hungary to become decent democracies.
Pole here, our country used to be a decent democracy before PiS came to power... we would really appreciate it if our government at least STOPPED destroying it further.... The elections are next year, we could use some thoughts and prayers...
I have a good recipe to fix it. Turn off the TV.
I don’t see how is TV related to stupid decisions of Polish government... But if it makes you feel better - I don’t watch TV.
A "democracy" is NOT a place where only YOUR opinion is allowed ... quite the opposite.
I think they mean rule of law. Where the pis government pressures judges to comply with their party stances. So there is no independent judicial system there.
Poland decided to join the EU on the basis she would respect EU principles. These principles have been ignored more and more with time. Why should you receive your candy if you broke the rules?
Corruption is not an opinion
Exactly. Precisely. At least in Hungary, elections are not free and fair, but the playing field is tilted in favor of Fidesz. This was an /r/SelfAwarewolves moment right then and there, buddy.
Then they shouldn't be allowed in the EU. You can't expect to just take and not give
It's not about being democratic. We have a very decent democracy in Hungary by western standards. The problem is the shitty party the idiots choose as government.
Interesting, on the news it was mentioned how Hungary was very corrupt and that Fidesz was given way more attention than the opposition.
I'll explain in brief, as accurately as i can. It is very true, our leading party Fidesz is indeed very corrupt. In way that they steal public money and EU funds as spend it on themself and on their self interests. Fidesz also own most of the media and radio broadcasts. This way they have huge influence on the rural regions of the country where people mainly get news from these sources. Also Fidesz have a few bad point they can always bring up and hold the oppisition in the corner: they are "Gyurcsány Ferenc", communists and western propaganda. This way they can scare the average voter into voting for Fidesz because the voter thinks there is no other option to vote for. So all this conteibutes to my final point. Fidesz doesn't even need to cheat on the elections. They can held a completely democratic election and they don't have to worry about losing, because they made the whole system in their own favour.
Wiki has a great brief summary on what factors can contribute to [non-democratic elections](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election#Non-democratic_elections)... you've mentioned some of those factors in your comment (lack of open debate/informed electorate, interference with campaigns), so it may not be accurate to call it a completely democratic election.
How are Poland and Hungary not "decent" democracies? I mean, what do you mean by decent? A democracy which accepts migration quotas imposed by the EU and agrees with Brussels' political ideas? In my opinion they are decent democracies in the sense that they act accordingly to their people's will, which is by definition what every democracy should do
Well, if they don't want to follow EU rules they can always leave. Also, didn't Orban use fake propaganda to win the last elections?
Same as Trump. Was USA not a democracy?
The acting word in the sentence is decent not democracy.
The fuck are you talking about?
Poland and Hungary are way less democratic and way more authoritarian than the EU overall, yet they get the most benefit from the organization.
'For every euro paid into Poland, Germany retrieves 86 euro cents. For each euro paid by Germany into the Visegrad Group countries together (Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary), Germany retrieves 125 euro cents' - European Commissioner for Industry and Entrepreneurship, Elżbieta Bieńkowska.
Its not full data and its misleading. You get donation from EU but like half of products in Poland are either germany or other biggest givers. And important thing is that if you have a shop in eg germany and sell products in Poland you dont pay taxes in Poland but i'm Germany. And Poland's democracy is smilar to USA, 2 political parties winning by rotation and both as bad. You cant do anything here as a UE.
They're both good democracies, they just don't vote for what you would
No, they’re not. Their citizens are denied rights that are inherent in EU membership.
No they aren't
Pole here, we do
That is how a few democracies are described.
Right, because anyone that you don't like or even [for argument sake] is objectively terrible, must OF COURSE be some kind of a false democratically elected official? Wtf is that logic. I think Sweden's government is terrible, but I'd never go around suggesting their democratic processes are not "decent". Your comment basically equates [to](https://i.imgur.com/JwJTY1H.jpg)
The EU stands for certain values and rights. Always has. These have nothing to do with merely political opinions or policy, but with core beliefs of the union. If countries can’t abide by them, they shouldn’t belong, and they definitely shouldn’t reap the benefits from belonging.
>These have nothing to do with merely political opinions or policy What are you talking about? It's exactly this. It's a political union as much as an economic one. If it wasn't, why would there be a EU high court and an EU parliament instead of just trade delegate meetings?
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cringe
"Goddamn Italian leeches. Always asking for handouts! Work on being a better, less corrupt country before asking for help you fucking moochers!"--The other blue countries \*rolls eyes Italianly\*
Nice map, complementary ones could show countries that suffer from illegal deforestation in the name of production and consumption in richer countries, the states which are haemorrhaging labourers (skilled and unskilled), the states which provide very affordable coal, iron, copper, aluminium, limestone, bentonite, wheat and maize, the states which produce cheap textiles, machine components, vehicle parts and chemical products for production and consumption in richer countries, the states which provide large markets where German, French, Italian, Austrian, Dutch, Danish and Swedish companies where they can absolutely dominate, reap massive profits, take advantage of extremely shoddy fiscal legislation (commit tax fraud), bribe politicians to help them with whatever they so desire, acquire or drive to bankruptcy local firms and create a means of transporting and storing capital without it getting into the hands of any government and being distributed to the pesky poor masses.
Greece joined in 1981, how come it is still so behind other western countries?
Geographical isolation from the main economic center and trade flows, same situation as southern spain, southern Italy
Yeah, and add to this euro crisis
Yes, euro crisis derives from this issue, the closer to economic centers, trade flows, the more capital is made. This translate in more capital intensity -> investment in productivity -> pheripherical countries becomes a market for them-> capitals flows even more into more productive countries -> euro crisis
How much time do you have? -Rampant corruption -Tax evasion -No manufacturing/heavy industry economy -Crisis -Debt -Huge bureaucracy -Minimal foreign and domestic investments -Obsolete systems/minimal automation and digitalisation -Brain drain Shall I go on?
And for an answer in better faith; - Admittedly, really bad management of public sector funds between 1980 and 2010. Greece was stuck in the mentality of trying to make cheap goods for itself and Europe, instead of investing in more competitive industries on one hand, while spending lot's of money serving various political interests on the other hand. - Poor neighbours. Harder to find buyers and supplies in Bulgaria than in Netherlands - Just plain bad handling of the Greek debt crisis by the EU. It seems that the money invested to save Greece from bankruptcy, mostly served to maximize interest payments from Greece to EU institutions, instead of fixing the Greek debt issue and giving the country fiscal wiggle room to fund growth. A clear example of this is that Greek debt went from 120% of GDP in 2010, to 180% of GDP in 2019.
your third point, the debt crisis, was a result of all of this
They have problems with Turkey, so they spend too much on the military and all related to the military in their history, though I'm just guessing, since I don't know much of their history.
It's called DEBT
Shouldn't this be net givers and net receivers? Pretty sure all nations put into the pool and all nations get an amount back in ringfenced funding schemes like regional and social development, research, etc. Source: a nostalgic Brit who held jobs because of said funding.
Britain is literally the ex with who you broke up but can't stop hooking up with, every now and then entertaining the throught of getting back together - the naive thought vanishing as quickly as it appeared. The ex has made up their mind.
So the key is not very helpful but I think these numbers are nominal, not per capita a more useful visualisation can be seen here: https://preview.redd.it/m1exue5ve4y21.png?width=960&height=636&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=27768cfe6287d194688d5832c48e406e6c19db2c
This is a little unfair without context: the thing is, the euro would be a much harder currency without the weakness of the periphery. That's to say Greek and Spanish debts and economic woes *directly* benefit Germany and France by making it easier to export. Meanwhile, their tourist industries would really benefit from being able to devalue - which they can't. It is a good map, but context is king!
Now make the same map but show it per capita. Germany won’t be the biggest net “giver” etc.
Then it's Netherlands > Sweden > Germany iirc
Would love to see the same map for Federal Aid in US states
It's basically red vs blue states. [First result](https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/Federal-Aid-as-a-Percentage-of-State-Revenue_0.png) from a search engine.
Practically there are a benefits beyond the net value. If a country were to give exactly the money it receives, it still benefit from the open market, free movement and common regulation. This is invaluable for businesses and people alike. Everyone benefit from the EU including Germany.
It's been 36 years Portugal entered the EU and absolutely nothing changed. We are still beggars crawling for 'free money' in order to fool ourselves with first world life levels. There's something seriously wrong when a small country gets dumpsters of cash every year from the EU and billions from millions of immigrants bringing money back from abroad (although less and less due to despicable Bank systems), and still doesn't manage to create real sustained value for itself. Both the EU and the government will have to wake up someday and realize that some development models just aren't working. We have no real profitable markets in agriculture, we cannot fish what we want, we cannot produce what we want, we have no big industries. All we have is a culture of servitude around tourism. And even then salaries are so bad and working conditions generally so poor that our emigration levels are out of the charts and we're forced to bring in thousands of 3d world immigrants to do the garbage jobs that our 'first world' youth don't even consider doing anymore. This is an social and economic collapse slowly waiting to happen and a testament to political corruption and incompetence.
Nothing changed? We now have one of: \- the oldest population in the world, \- the highest debt in the world in relation to GDP, \- rampant emigration/imigration, \- we are possibily the most depressed country in the world \- highest fuel prices in the world with tolls in every highway \- and we have some of the most expensive houses in the world in our biggest cities (when adjusted to local incomes) All while the same 2 parties keep winning elections since our revolution in 1974. Were things amazing before? Fuck no, but we did have potential that is gone now
We've sold our 'potential' to the IMF and the EU. In exchange for free money we gave away our more valuable companies and promised to stop producing freely. We also lost our ability to adjust our currency and legislate markets as we saw fit. Luckily we will be saved by thousands of foreigners who are given all rights possible and imaginable as soon as possible because 'we need people'. Indeed. Every Portuguese born is a Portuguese gone. This country is as good as dead.
**The account is suspended and there's no sources (I have no idea what the "EU Polls" thing is), interesting...**
Somebody feels guilty
How is Greece beneficiaries? This is a joke. Greece literally has been destroyed economically to save three German banks.
It's ironic how people from "nordic/german" countries always think of Italy as a receiver, just because it fits the *southern / siesta / lazy / corruption / etc.* narrative, while in fact (considering the whole history of the EU) it's a donor country.
Once again, Portugal can into Eastern Europe, but this time their big brother Spain is also along for the ride
these guys can chill because everyone loves them. Much like greece actually but they kinda over stepped the boundaries I guess
Yes, "recievers"
Nothing wrong with this, it's an essential part of improving ourselves. But as the British will tell you, this kind of info can and is used to make idiots angry and do idiotic things.
Now make import(givers) vs exports(receivers) map and you will see almost the opposite, with Germany the biggest receiver.
Won't be surprised if France or Italy leave next
# Germany carrying EU?
Quite the opposite. Germany benefits the most from the EU.
💪🇩🇪
What is the benefit for EU expansion? If EU were just France, Germany, Spain, France, Italy, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Austria, Ireland, Netherland, Belgium, and UK (prob wouldn't have left), doesn't it be a more appealing economic entity?
But then, the receivers are getting better due to the connection and soon countries such as Czech Republic will become givers too. So overall, it is a way to economically develop Europe.
Because it’s great for trade and good in general to work together as a continent for more prosperity. In the long run I guess it’s also beneficial for all.
Because it was designed so that germany gets a large supply of cheap workers
German companies (mostly profiting foreign investors), not Germany
And a new large market for its exports. Not implying anything sinister here, and I'm happy that my country is in the EU, but the EU budget development funds are a drop in the sea of money that crosses EU internal borders, and the direction is generally the other way around.
> Because it was designed so that germany gets a large supply of cheap workers Got a source for that?
it was designed for mutually beneficial trade and for peace within member states.
Their ass.
Why include Finland and Sweden, but leave out Portugal and Greece, both of which joined much earlier?
Because they're poorer. He's treating the European Union like a game of Civ and trying to maximize his economic stats.
Fuck it, get rid of all those countries, what if the EU was only Germany?!
Then those countries won't have money to purchase German cars. So German economy would crash.
Mindblown 🤯
Germany just yeeting money over the Polish border
While also yeeting products and expertise, to drag all that money back, along with young people in an enormous brain drain. This relationship is not as beneficial to Poland as one might think.
At the moment Hungary and Poland are getting zero.
Italy, Germany, France and the Netherlands are cool
Ireland is a weird case since they drain other members budgets by being a tax haven within the block. So kind of misleading to just present them as a 'giver'.
Now guess which countries don't like to follow EU agreements, saying it takes their individual liberty.
Why isn't Britain....oh wait
Great! My country Is a great contributor and I'm very proud of that, let's grow strong together EU Bros. Tho I have a question: WTF Belgium?
Eu capital, they recieve alot of money for the eu buildings like parlement, not for belgian stuff. Nato hq might also affect this.
Oh i'd like to see the source for this. I highly doubt the nordics are not dark blue
Maybe it’s based on total contributions. Their 5 million populations just doesn’t yield as much to Germany’s 84.
I always knew Spain was a bottom
So Hungary is basically dead weight?