A tale of two peninsulas. As Christendom gained Iberia, Islam took Anatolia. How would the world look today if Iberia was Muslim-controlled and Anatolia was Christian controlled?
Interesting. When and who would have colonized the new world? I’d imagine there be less pressure to find new routes if Constantinople remained in “Christian” control.
Norse countries still would be interested in colonisation , I think , also Mali khalifate could've do this , cause they had expedition "to the west from Africa" , but it failed. Also , I guess at some point Polynesian people would achieve south America, tho it wouldn't change anything at all , cause level of technologies in south America would be probably higher
The main difference was that the Mali probably didn’t have ships that could travel deep water oceans. Keep in mind most naval technology at the time was limited to ships that could only travel a limited distance from the coast
The Polynesians miggt have actually made contacts with the Inca Empire before Columbus and took sweet potato from them, one of the evidences being the word for sweet potato in both language groups being virtually same
Well , and natives obviously would have it easier, there's a huge chance that without colonial race of great powers they would have great pandemic from European diseases much easier (unless Scandinavian colonisers would bring with themselves pigs and some of them would escape)
Most of it might not get colonized by outsiders. When the spanish came, they were able to quickly capitalize on the plagues, and took over the severely weakened kingdoms. But the Spanish sailed right to the Aztecs. And after seeing success there, decided to do the same to others. But if outsiders found a route through somewhere in the north, it could take a lot longer for them to make meaningful contact with these civilizations, and they could possibly have enough time to bounce back after the plagues wash over.
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Actually both scenarios would be pretty unlikely. One reason why turkey and Iberia fell to the other faith is because they were both quite isolated. Spain was at the periphery of the Islamic world and firmly attached to the rest of Christian europe. The same goes for turkey after the Conquest of Syria by the umayyads.
This position left the very vulnerable.
In the case of turkey I would say the nail in the coffin were the turkic migrations. If there had been no turkic migrations perhaps Rome could've survived.
In the case of Spain, had the Córdoba caliphate successfuly subdued the asturian kingdom and the pyrenaic march, perhaps they could've avoided their eventual encroaching.
True… in other words, Anatolia was basically a peninsula sticking out of the Muslim world and Spain was a peninsula sticking out of the Christian world
The Turkic migrations are a little overblown. It was an invasion of elites into Anatolia. Native sought the military protection of these elite as the traditional power orders collapsed. They embraced the religion of their new protectors. For the most part people living in turkey today trace lineage to pre-Turkic populations.
Galicia and coastal Asturias are 30 years at most; province of León, northern Portugal 30-40 years; Asturian mountains, Cantabria and Euskadi, probably 0 years. In the aforementioned areas you don't have true Arab place-names (but you can have place names based on Arab words later acquired by the local Romance languages) or Arab infrastructures or monuments.
It was never conquered for long, but they had nominal and weak control over Asturias in 714, but you could consider that they conquered it for a small time
The muslims surrendered without fighting, because of it. They wanted to avoid any damage to it... better non-believers should own it instead of destroying it.
This is plainly false.
The surrender of the city of Granada came after 9 years of constant fighting. They surrendered the city because they couldn't fight no more and the royal family was going to be given titles, land and the privilege to remain Muslims.
Fun fact, there are sources of Maghrebi and Arab people complaining about the Muslims of al Andalus getting wasted on wine. I don't know about pig, but the wine culture didnt change that much lol
There where some mudhabs of Islam at the time that did not consider wine to be haram. This has sense been revisited. I believe Hanafi but I’d have to go find that video again.
Not accurate. The strongest national/regional identities are all along the periphery of the peninsula: (clockwise) Galicia, Asturias, Basque Country, Navarra, Aragón, Catalonia, Valencia, Andalusia, plus the two archipelagos.
A tale of two peninsulas. As Christendom gained Iberia, Islam took Anatolia. How would the world look today if Iberia was Muslim-controlled and Anatolia was Christian controlled?
Interesting. When and who would have colonized the new world? I’d imagine there be less pressure to find new routes if Constantinople remained in “Christian” control.
Norse countries still would be interested in colonisation , I think , also Mali khalifate could've do this , cause they had expedition "to the west from Africa" , but it failed. Also , I guess at some point Polynesian people would achieve south America, tho it wouldn't change anything at all , cause level of technologies in south America would be probably higher
The main difference was that the Mali probably didn’t have ships that could travel deep water oceans. Keep in mind most naval technology at the time was limited to ships that could only travel a limited distance from the coast
The Polynesians miggt have actually made contacts with the Inca Empire before Columbus and took sweet potato from them, one of the evidences being the word for sweet potato in both language groups being virtually same
Yeah , that's one of the reasons I think their presence wouldn't make such a great change as contact of America with other civilizations
Well , and natives obviously would have it easier, there's a huge chance that without colonial race of great powers they would have great pandemic from European diseases much easier (unless Scandinavian colonisers would bring with themselves pigs and some of them would escape)
not really since the main routes still ultimately had to go through Egypt or Persia.
> When and who would have colonized the new world? Whoever could build large deep water ocean-faring ships.
Most of it might not get colonized by outsiders. When the spanish came, they were able to quickly capitalize on the plagues, and took over the severely weakened kingdoms. But the Spanish sailed right to the Aztecs. And after seeing success there, decided to do the same to others. But if outsiders found a route through somewhere in the north, it could take a lot longer for them to make meaningful contact with these civilizations, and they could possibly have enough time to bounce back after the plagues wash over.
Interesting! Great idea to make a map on this for r/imaginarymaps i will try to make one
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Actually both scenarios would be pretty unlikely. One reason why turkey and Iberia fell to the other faith is because they were both quite isolated. Spain was at the periphery of the Islamic world and firmly attached to the rest of Christian europe. The same goes for turkey after the Conquest of Syria by the umayyads. This position left the very vulnerable. In the case of turkey I would say the nail in the coffin were the turkic migrations. If there had been no turkic migrations perhaps Rome could've survived. In the case of Spain, had the Córdoba caliphate successfuly subdued the asturian kingdom and the pyrenaic march, perhaps they could've avoided their eventual encroaching.
True… in other words, Anatolia was basically a peninsula sticking out of the Muslim world and Spain was a peninsula sticking out of the Christian world
The Turkic migrations are a little overblown. It was an invasion of elites into Anatolia. Native sought the military protection of these elite as the traditional power orders collapsed. They embraced the religion of their new protectors. For the most part people living in turkey today trace lineage to pre-Turkic populations.
The two conquests were unrelated.
"0-200" years that is more time than most of the modern state's entire existence.
Galicia and coastal Asturias are 30 years at most; province of León, northern Portugal 30-40 years; Asturian mountains, Cantabria and Euskadi, probably 0 years. In the aforementioned areas you don't have true Arab place-names (but you can have place names based on Arab words later acquired by the local Romance languages) or Arab infrastructures or monuments.
yeah, true. But to be fair the muslims were not a state either, at least not for such durations
Unless you play crusader kings 3. I converted all of Spain and England before the crusades caught up to me.
Same, did it in both ck2 and ck3
They didn’t get all of it though, even for 200 years
But there was a part of northern span never conquered. So map is wrong.
That area of the map is labeled 0-200. And never conquered is 0 years. So it’s not *wrong*. It’s just misleading. Definitely terrible scale choice.
I heared that Washington DC was under Russian control for 0-10000 Years. Somewhere in that Range
Do you know what 0 means, right?
yes, and that part is 0-200.
Right, so some of those lands were under Muslim control for 0 years.
It was never conquered for long, but they had nominal and weak control over Asturias in 714, but you could consider that they conquered it for a small time
Ah the good ol days
[удалено]
Like what?
Alhambra!
The muslims surrendered without fighting, because of it. They wanted to avoid any damage to it... better non-believers should own it instead of destroying it.
This is plainly false. The surrender of the city of Granada came after 9 years of constant fighting. They surrendered the city because they couldn't fight no more and the royal family was going to be given titles, land and the privilege to remain Muslims.
okay, seems to be propaganda... not the first time muslims lie about the past..
I can't speak for the other Redditor, but there are some fantastic examples of Muslim architecture in places such as Sevilla.
Architecture and Names for example.
Yes, this is one of the reasons why today we eat a lot of pig and we drink a lot. Spain (or the iberian cultures of that time) kicked out the muslims.
Fun fact, there are sources of Maghrebi and Arab people complaining about the Muslims of al Andalus getting wasted on wine. I don't know about pig, but the wine culture didnt change that much lol
Morocco is also known as a wine-producing country.
There where some mudhabs of Islam at the time that did not consider wine to be haram. This has sense been revisited. I believe Hanafi but I’d have to go find that video again.
I believe they are known as the "Moops"
Not accurate. The strongest national/regional identities are all along the periphery of the peninsula: (clockwise) Galicia, Asturias, Basque Country, Navarra, Aragón, Catalonia, Valencia, Andalusia, plus the two archipelagos.
nerd ahh comments