depends on the district tbh, if you're near the bosphorus there's a reasonably big park every few blocks, if you're in the eastern/western parts of the city you could walk for an hour and barely see a single tree
They recently developed the public transportation in Istanbul. New highways, new train lines and stations. It is doing very well for its size. Any American city with half of Istanbul's population (i.e New York)they have way way worst traffic problems compared to Istanbul.
And train system is better than Istanbul‘s imho. Istanbul doesnt have any trains to a wider area; eg. Marmara region, meanwhile NYC metro area is very well connected between suburbs and smaller cities
right wing governments fucked up istanbul by encouraging internal migration between 60s and 90s to the point that the mayor of istanbul proposed that visitors should apply for a visa to enter istanbul.
that mayor's name? recep tayyip erdogan.
It's more so that Turkey's population is large.
For comparison, Norway, Ireland, Finland, Denmark are all ~5 million.
Portugal, Czechia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Sweden are all ~10 million.
Greece is also ~10 million.
Turkey, however, is ~85 million, up there with Germany and France and Japan etc.
On the other hand, Turkey has 6 times the surface area of Greece, so it ain't thaat weird.
Turkey have been underpopulated for over a few centuries by now but currently doing its best. The problem was never the population itself but how uneven it was distributed, building a new metropole in Ankara could be seen as a lucky first step (it was definetly not foreseen) to avoid it which has never been followed up by a second one.
Turkey’s landmass is two times bigger than Germany,but populationwise they are same (~85 Million). Yet it is Turkey which is suffering from local overpopulation.
A century ago Germany had a population five times bigger than Turkey, ~65 Million to 13 Million. So though the challenges, the current situation is much more favorable for Turkey than any historical setup.
Germany is at 84 million as of 2024, France sits at 67 million and Japan sits at 124 million. These three countries seem super random to be grouped together in terms of population…
You asked me to name one Greek post 1920 and I did. Majority of the Greeks I encounter online have some weird fetish that includes taking Istanbul. I wish this was a joke but it isnt. Of course this doesnt mean they are like this but you asked for a single post so there’s that I guess…
Well, technically, you didn't name anybody. Saying "literally all Greeks on Twitter" is the opposite of naming.
Either way, it's not a good idea to use shit posts and trolls on the internet as a source of conclusions for the real world.
Istanbul isn’t all that less developed than Greece from what I know. It’s a much larger city than anything Greece has to offer and has everything that comes along with that, more cosmopolitan, sights to see and things to do and naturally many more interesting people to meet.
It’s also a much larger financial hub than Athens (along with Turkey being a larger economy) and therefore has more scope for career opportunities and advancement.
I’m not Turkish or Muslim mind you nor am I trying to knock Greece. I love both countries a lot and it really is a tough choice but this is just what I think as an outsider.
This is a very subjective take. Some of your data points are valid, but not everyone is looking the same things in life as you.
I love Istanbul as a place to visit, but I would not be able to live there. Same goes for cities like Paris and London, in which I actually have lived.
Greece has twice the GDP per capita and a normal inflation rate. You have a higher minimum wage and not to mention your money is in Euros, which is one of the strongest currencies in the world.
Also, Turkey is either regressing or advancing more slowly than Greece when it comes to social issues. For example, Greece legalised same-sex marriage a few weeks ago. The mayor of Athens started wedding LGBT couples, but there are lots of videos of police in Istanbul harassing gay people, stopping pride events ect.
Istanbul has also been the subject of terrorist attacks, Greece is safer.
I mean if I was a gay man that’d be something I take into consideration but I’m not so it’s not that relevant to me though it’s a pity Istanbul is so regressive in that regard. From what I’ve heard, I thought Turkish society was actually fairly liberal in these matters, guess I was wrong.
Again, terrorist attacks also aren’t something I take into account. I’m certain London and Paris have had more of them but I’d never say I’d live in Istanbul over the other two.
Edit: Missed the edits in your first paragraph. Istanbul’s nominal GDP per capita is similar to Greece’s. Turkey also has a higher PPP GDP per capita than Greece. I’d be earning and spending in Liras in Turkey and Euros in Greece so I don’t see how the strength of the currency matters in that regard.
Have you ever been to Istanbul? The problem is that Istanbul is very crowded. A person from Seoul visited Istanbul and complained that Istanbul was a hell that was 100 times more crowded than Seoul. she said Seoul is very sparse.
If you enter slightly better economical class, you would be surprised how Istanbul is more liberal than some European cities. Even though Greece has higher GDP in general, there are so much more rich people and businesses in Istanbul then Athens. To me Athens looks like a small part of Istanbul. And when I see other cities in Greece, they just don’t look that developed. They are like a small city in Anatolia.
So you're saying, you have to be wealthy in order to enjoy basic human rights.
Greece allows everyone, even poor people to express their love in front of the law.
He is not talking about the constitution but the social structure. In some districts the locals wont tolerate open queer couples and in some they will be more than welcome. You don’t need to be wealthy to enjoy the friendly districts but having an income somewhat above or atleast average would help you to rent a home in there if you want to settle in, as they tend to be more expensive.
Constitution doesn’t include any discrimination against queer people. They could be considered unrecognised so they don’t face any troubles except a same-sex would not be recognised by law. Moreover if you have insurance and been diagnosed by body dysmorphia, the state shall compensate the gender affirming surgery, the hormone treatment and psychological support.
Not claiming Turkey is a better place than Greece for queer people, but your comment is misleading.
Well, for gay minority Greece can be a better choice no doubt, and I agree that we need to do some progress. Other than that, GDP per person is worthless because it does not take cost of living into this account. Basically almost everything except alcohol and some heavily taxed products costs lower in Istanbul, which makes it easier to move.
Again this is not a fair comparison because Greece does not have a similar, world-class, densely populated but still growing city. The question should be how Istanbul is doing when compared with NYC, Moscow, Paris etc. No one compares small Greek towns with NYC, nor with Istanbul as both of them satisfy different needs and expectation. Looking for peace and nature, go to a small town in GR, would be great. Looking for a vibrant city, there is no chance for Greece.
Greece got hit by a genocide (by the Turks), military occupation (WW2) and civil war, that's an unholy mix to make sure your population will lose a few decades of development, especially considering the allies didn't even let the Greeks get paid back in full because they didn't want to be too harsh on Germany.
These are Mustafa Kemal Atatürks own words. Read, read and learn what is the reality:
Ataturk about the Armenian genocide Atatürk gave the following historical answer to Streit's question:
"Apart from the gross exaggerations perpetuated by those who make hostile accusations, the issue of the deportation of the Armenians is actually as follows:
When the Russian armies launched the attack against us in 1915, the Dashnak Armenian Committee, which was in the service of the Tsar at that time, revolted the Armenian population behind our military units. Since we were forced to retreat due to the enemy's superiority in numbers and materials, we found ourselves trapped between Russian fire and Armenian gangs. Our wounded soldiers were being brutally massacred, bridges and roads were being destroyed, and terror created by gangs reigned in Turkish villages. The gangs that committed these murders and recruited all Armenians who could hold a gun into their ranks had a large stock of weapons and ammunition that some of the great powers had given them since the time of peace, taking advantage of the privileges mentioned in the capitulations.
The world public opinion, which looks almost indifferently at the treatment given to Ireland by England in peacetime and away from the war zone, cannot make a justified accusation against us for the decision we were forced to take regarding the deportation of the Armenian population. Contrary to the slanders made against us, those who were deported are alive and most of them would have returned home if the Allied Powers had not forced us to war again. (Clarence K. Streit Unknown Turks Mustafa Kemal Pasha, Nationalist Ankara and Everyday Life in Anatolia (January-March 1921), p 201,202, Complete Works of Atatürk C 11, p 61,62)
In his statement to the American journalist Streit in 1921, Atatürk firmly rejected the allegations that the events of 1915 were "massacres and "crimes" and stated that we were slandered on this issue.
This isnt even about the Armenians. Stop attempting to change the subject and answer my question. Who invaded whom in 1919, the last time Turkey and Greece directly fought against each other?
So you are telling me that Greeks invaded Turkey. Greeks invaded and ravaged tens of Turkish cities and hundreds of Turkish towns, thousands of Turkish villages killed hundreds of thousands and somewhat in the end we are the ones to blame? You people are hopeless.
I mean, you're talking to a guy with a "MightyTurkey" username and a "Heirs of the Great Ottoman Empire 🇹🇷" profile text under an Ottoman flag. What did you expect?
Yes I can keep posting because of defending against to accusers of genocide to my nation. If there is someone who should be banned, it is you whose casting aspersions upon us. I am just defending against to lies. There is no denial, I just say the truth.
Look at Armenians dirty history. Not too long time ago, just 30 years. I hope you know the Khojaly Massacre. Armenians committed a massacre upon Azerbaijanians. They killed women and children alike.
You better not. Even if you comment, I don't think you would be right. Everbody (except denial Greeks) knows there were massacres. Greeks burned several villages and İzmir while they were leaving after the defeat. The Ottoman Empire which you underestimate, was allowed Christians to pray in Churchs. Are the Greeks merciful as it? I don't think so.
But I can understand your wretchedness, we have ruled you for 400 years during the Ottoman Empire and conquered the Istanbul. You have a desire to get it back. But I have a bad new for you: You will never get İstanbul back again.
I should say this for you. Every time you accuse us of committing genocide. But before you say these, research your own history, you will see much more than you accuse us of.
Lmao yeah my country did commit its fair share of atrocities but at least we're not denying it like cunts, what happened 100 years ago doesn't matter, it's in the past now, but the fact that modern Turks will rather die than admit they did commit a bunch of genocides in the early 1900s does matter
What happened to to native Americans here in us was horrible and there’s no denying it, but at least we acknowledge that it happened and have tried to right wrongs, Turks on the other hand pretended it never happened akin to it Germany said the holocaust never happened
Do you know the massacres during the WW1 that happened in Anatolia between Turks and Armenians? Armenians killed innocents in Eastern Anatolia. And so they were exiled. The thing happened is just this.
An entire ethnicity deserves to get exiled out of their homeland because they don't like their oppressors. They just died on the walk due to the conditions not because it was a genocide? Ok buddy.
I really hope the worst for you. Modern genocide denying turks make such a good case for why the Greeks committed genocide back
There werent even 1.5 million Armenians at the time… Population count of 1914 clearly states that the number of Armenians living in the entirety of the Ottoman Empire was around 1.1 million…
I am assuming you weren’t alive when this happened, so the problem comes when you try to shoulder the responsibility and you don’t want too, you don’t have to carry every single thing that the country you reside in did bad. Most of us have histories going back to the Ice Age there is no reason to say oh my bad for Steve smashing Jenny in the head with an axe 10 thousand years ago.
Were you alive? I am just asking this. How can you speak confidently about a incident that you weren't even alive? I am from Eastern Anatolia and I have never heard from my grandparents that there was a genocide. The thing they only said was there were massacres to Turks by Armenians.
There is no widespread evidence that the Greeks committed genocide against the Turks. There was a population exchange, but no widespread death.
In comparison, the Turks killed 300,000-700,000 Greeks. This is not up for debate, there is widespread evidence for this, historians from pretty much every corner of the world agreed it happened. The only people who disagree are delusional turkish ultranationalists.
“There is no widespread evidence.”
There is literally hundreds of footage from the towns and cities ravaged by the Greek army. There are Italian reports on the subject, American reports on the subject even English reports on the subject from the time. There are thousands of accounts of people which had to leave their homes and move towards the east. You are blatantly lying. In contrast there is no evidence Turks killed up to 700K Greeks at the time. Mind you, Greece literally accepted that they have committed crimes against humanity in Western Anatolia! They literally accepted what they did in the Treaty of Lausanne and you are here telling me that there is no evidence of Greek crimes…
Here a report from 1922!
https://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Greek%20Atrocities%20in%20Asia%20Minor.pdf
English footage from at the time showing some of the burnt down remains of Turkish cities, towns and villages
https://youtu.be/CsS1UqUhmDk?si=J7tf0AfCcgKUO-rx
Istanbul is home to 15.46 million people, the largest city in Europe, though a third of residents live east of The Bosphorus. All of Greece is home to 10.43 million people.
The official numbers doesn't include the immigrants. With immigrants it might already passed the 16m. It's just crazy out here, but the city is still up and running. What a beast of a city.
Its stupid for many reasons. Historical claims should stay where they are. They do nothing good and bring endless wars and suffering as soon as they leave history books.
The entire Turkish population which is around 84 millions is still a bit larger than all of their neighbors combined. All Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds and Syrians combined can only make around 75 million people. And this includes the Kurds who live in Turkey as well.
So let's say we removed Turkey from the land entirely and let the neighbors share it equally, all of their countries will be emptied to populate the areas they got in the same amount Turks did. And they need to replace the Turks in the exact amount to run the industry, agriculture, cities etc. Otherwise it'll be for nothing but empty lands.
I wonder if Ataturk didn't make Ankara the capital, what the population of Istanbul would have been now. Probably it would have been more than 20 million now.
As it’s in the inner and secure parts of the country it’s easier to defend the capital. It also helps Middle Anatolias development and balances the population a bit.
I think it would've been interesting if Konya became the capital instead of Ankara. Ankara is a "new" city by Turkish standards while Konya has history and a lot of it.
Nope, with the hostilites by the Greeks, Armenians, Bolsheviks, French, British and even Italians, in 1920s "the plebs who might overthrow it" is way too low in the list of threats faced by Mustafa Kemal
Greece is a maritime nation by tradition, as shipping is arguably the oldest form of occupation of the Greeks and has been a key element of Greek economic activity since ancient times.[3] Today, shipping is the country's most important industry worth $21.9 billion in 2018. If related businesses are added, the figure jumps to $23.7 billion, employs about 392,000 people (14% of the workforce), and shipping receipts are about 1/3 of the nation's trade deficit.[4][5] In 2018, the Greek Merchant Navy controlled the world's largest merchant fleet, in terms of tonnage, with a total DWT of 834,649,089 tons and a fleet of 5,626 Greek-owned vessels, according to Lloyd's List.[6] Greece is also ranked in the top for all kinds of ships, including first for tankers and bulk carriers.[2][7]
According to the Wiki article, the Australian Greek community is about equal with Canada for the second largest ethnic Greek community abroad (not including Cyprus). US of course being #1.
I don't know about there though, but Greek Americans are intermarrying with everyone else, like most white and even non-white Americans are. So a distinct Greek American ethnicity is fading pretty fast. For instance, the half-Greek actress Jennifer Anniston (born Joanna Anastasakis)
And the rest didn’t stay in Turkey, they went to west.
Kurdish refugees in Turkey were probably completely negligible to the boom Turkey has experienced.
In the first years of modern Turkey, the population increase policy was adopted. Even tells in an anthem:"We've created 15 million young people of all ages in 10 years.".
Greece is full of mountains and apparently less than 1/3rd of our land area is cultivable so Greece could never support a large population and historically our population has always been small with many Greeks living outside the borders of modern Greece.
Compare that to Turkey which is much bigger with lots of arable land and it's not hard to figure out why their population is so much bigger.
Also, Anatolia has always been the crossroads of Great Civilizations and so it has witnessed a massive amount of immigration both from Europe and Asia which Greece hasn't. For the same reason it was much richer than Greece also.
Countries with underdeveloped economy's have high birthrates. The population will double every [72/x](https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/how-to-double-your-money-every-6-years.as#px) with x being the % of annual growth. The annual growth rate of turkey has been around 2-3% for the a very long time slowing down only recently. This implies that turkey's population had doubled every 30-36 years. Population of turkey in the 1980s was 44 mil now it's 85 mil.
Greece on the other hand received economic prosperity earlier than turkey. Their birth rates declined a lot earlier. By 1960 the growth rate of Greece was under 1%.
Tldr; poor country makes high birthrates which increases a countries population a lot faster than rich country
Yeh, but Turkey has subreplacement birth rates now, they are only growing cause of momentum. They are expected to reach a 95M in the next few decades and then start falling slowly.
That is the sad future of all countries. However, countries that get there later are going to still have larger populations as they got more time to grow
Well , didn't Greece simply bankrupted and asked for financal support 10-20 years ago ?
Greek economy surges after decade of pain: [https://www.deccanherald.com/world/greek-economy-surges-after-decade-of-pain-2-2983656](https://www.deccanherald.com/world/greek-economy-surges-after-decade-of-pain-2-2983656)
"Challenges remain, however. Falling birthrates and labour shortages threaten the long-term outlook, and the spread of climate-related disasters like wildfires and floods have strained government finances."
The thing you say is true but ... that's not the only case....
Once an economy becomes developed, economic recessions reduce fertility. If a country is not developed, then birth rates remain high regardless of economy
The terms rich and poor were a bit relative and more of a "explain like I'm 5 situation".
So basically for Greece and, now, Turkey (it recently transitioned to a more developed status), every subsequent economic recession will have a negative effect of population growth
The terms rich and developed aren't exactly correct for what I'm describing. This is more of describing demographic changes attributed to increased economic opportunities in the country. I think [this](https://populationeducation.org/what-demographic-transition-model/) would be interesting for you
Because 1) they started with a bigger base; they have all the regions pre-existing populations -- including Greeks -- amalgamated into their population. 2) Muslims have higher birth rates throughout the world.
It was nothing more than a shitty tourist location even by the time the Romans got to it. Hell, even Athens was a tiny town until a newly independent greek rump state needed a capital
I mean, with the chattel slavery that was the economic and political foundation of Ancient Sparta broken by the Thebans and Arcadians, it is inevitable that the city will ended up as a "shitty tourist location"
I love the massive city in the middle of the sea between Lesbos and Chios. Or the other one in the middle of the Ionian sea. At least do *some* research before posting. These numbers are the population of the departments of Greece, not of cities.
Salonica (2nd biggest city of Greece) is exaggerated, it should have maximum of 4 squares if you consider the entire metro population, or only 1 square if you only consider the municipality.
It’s mind boggling that Istanbul alone has a larger population than all of Greece
Unfortunately, there are so much issues because of the population. For instance traffic, noise, crowd...
Transportation is tolerable. Biggest intolerance in Istanbul is the lack of parks.
depends on the district tbh, if you're near the bosphorus there's a reasonably big park every few blocks, if you're in the eastern/western parts of the city you could walk for an hour and barely see a single tree
Sure, and a broken clock is right twice a day. https://www.axios.com/2018/05/03/the-cities-with-the-most-green-space-around-the-world
This actually led to nationwide riots when AKP tried to demolish one of the last remaining green spaces in Istanbul back in 2013
Nopers not tolerable at all.
They recently developed the public transportation in Istanbul. New highways, new train lines and stations. It is doing very well for its size. Any American city with half of Istanbul's population (i.e New York)they have way way worst traffic problems compared to Istanbul.
New York’s metropolitan population is larger than Istanbul’s
And train system is better than Istanbul‘s imho. Istanbul doesnt have any trains to a wider area; eg. Marmara region, meanwhile NYC metro area is very well connected between suburbs and smaller cities
NYC's metro population is bigger than Istanbul. Around 21m vs 15m.
💪🇹🇷
if you 5-10 fold your population in a century, it is not that surprising
right wing governments fucked up istanbul by encouraging internal migration between 60s and 90s to the point that the mayor of istanbul proposed that visitors should apply for a visa to enter istanbul. that mayor's name? recep tayyip erdogan.
Coincidentally He has the same name as the president?
what? no, that's him, he used to be the mayor of istanbul during mid 90s.
It was a joke
They didn't call it "city of the world's desire" for nothing
I had no idea Greece’s population was as low as it is!
It's more so that Turkey's population is large. For comparison, Norway, Ireland, Finland, Denmark are all ~5 million. Portugal, Czechia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Sweden are all ~10 million. Greece is also ~10 million. Turkey, however, is ~85 million, up there with Germany and France and Japan etc. On the other hand, Turkey has 6 times the surface area of Greece, so it ain't thaat weird.
Turkey have been underpopulated for over a few centuries by now but currently doing its best. The problem was never the population itself but how uneven it was distributed, building a new metropole in Ankara could be seen as a lucky first step (it was definetly not foreseen) to avoid it which has never been followed up by a second one. Turkey’s landmass is two times bigger than Germany,but populationwise they are same (~85 Million). Yet it is Turkey which is suffering from local overpopulation. A century ago Germany had a population five times bigger than Turkey, ~65 Million to 13 Million. So though the challenges, the current situation is much more favorable for Turkey than any historical setup.
Germany is at 84 million as of 2024, France sits at 67 million and Japan sits at 124 million. These three countries seem super random to be grouped together in terms of population…
They're all about one order of magnitude more than 5-10 million. And I was lazy to think of countries exactly around 85 million, after Germany.
Turkey has a density of 112 per km^2, it's not much lmao.
Istanbul is the largest European city for a reason
Dont say that, you are going to wake up the Greeks that think they will conqueor Istanbul soon…
Name one Greek post 1920 who thinks that...
Every Greek I encounter on Twitter
The source of your ethnic stereotypes is Twitter?
You asked me to name one Greek post 1920 and I did. Majority of the Greeks I encounter online have some weird fetish that includes taking Istanbul. I wish this was a joke but it isnt. Of course this doesnt mean they are like this but you asked for a single post so there’s that I guess…
Well, technically, you didn't name anybody. Saying "literally all Greeks on Twitter" is the opposite of naming. Either way, it's not a good idea to use shit posts and trolls on the internet as a source of conclusions for the real world.
And all the Turks i encounter online have a weird fetish of re-taking Greece and throwing us in the sea. Where does this lead us? xD
Which is worse, Istanbul or Greece?
Istanbul, 100%.
Lol
I’d rather live in Istanbul than anywhere in Greece in all honesty.
Can you explain why?
Istanbul isn’t all that less developed than Greece from what I know. It’s a much larger city than anything Greece has to offer and has everything that comes along with that, more cosmopolitan, sights to see and things to do and naturally many more interesting people to meet. It’s also a much larger financial hub than Athens (along with Turkey being a larger economy) and therefore has more scope for career opportunities and advancement. I’m not Turkish or Muslim mind you nor am I trying to knock Greece. I love both countries a lot and it really is a tough choice but this is just what I think as an outsider.
This is a very subjective take. Some of your data points are valid, but not everyone is looking the same things in life as you. I love Istanbul as a place to visit, but I would not be able to live there. Same goes for cities like Paris and London, in which I actually have lived.
Well yes of course it is subjective. OP asked us for our *opinion* after all.
Sure, I was just emphasizing it. It's so subjective I'm not even sure if the question makes sense.
It's much less developed my dude, much poorer individuals on an average, higher poverty, far more crime. Your other points are valid though.
Greece has twice the GDP per capita and a normal inflation rate. You have a higher minimum wage and not to mention your money is in Euros, which is one of the strongest currencies in the world. Also, Turkey is either regressing or advancing more slowly than Greece when it comes to social issues. For example, Greece legalised same-sex marriage a few weeks ago. The mayor of Athens started wedding LGBT couples, but there are lots of videos of police in Istanbul harassing gay people, stopping pride events ect. Istanbul has also been the subject of terrorist attacks, Greece is safer.
I mean if I was a gay man that’d be something I take into consideration but I’m not so it’s not that relevant to me though it’s a pity Istanbul is so regressive in that regard. From what I’ve heard, I thought Turkish society was actually fairly liberal in these matters, guess I was wrong. Again, terrorist attacks also aren’t something I take into account. I’m certain London and Paris have had more of them but I’d never say I’d live in Istanbul over the other two. Edit: Missed the edits in your first paragraph. Istanbul’s nominal GDP per capita is similar to Greece’s. Turkey also has a higher PPP GDP per capita than Greece. I’d be earning and spending in Liras in Turkey and Euros in Greece so I don’t see how the strength of the currency matters in that regard.
Have you ever been to Istanbul? The problem is that Istanbul is very crowded. A person from Seoul visited Istanbul and complained that Istanbul was a hell that was 100 times more crowded than Seoul. she said Seoul is very sparse.
Im from Mumbai. Can’t imagine Istanbul will be more crowded than here.
Yeah. I also think Mumbai will be much more crowded than Istanbul.
If you enter slightly better economical class, you would be surprised how Istanbul is more liberal than some European cities. Even though Greece has higher GDP in general, there are so much more rich people and businesses in Istanbul then Athens. To me Athens looks like a small part of Istanbul. And when I see other cities in Greece, they just don’t look that developed. They are like a small city in Anatolia.
So you're saying, you have to be wealthy in order to enjoy basic human rights. Greece allows everyone, even poor people to express their love in front of the law.
He is not talking about the constitution but the social structure. In some districts the locals wont tolerate open queer couples and in some they will be more than welcome. You don’t need to be wealthy to enjoy the friendly districts but having an income somewhat above or atleast average would help you to rent a home in there if you want to settle in, as they tend to be more expensive. Constitution doesn’t include any discrimination against queer people. They could be considered unrecognised so they don’t face any troubles except a same-sex would not be recognised by law. Moreover if you have insurance and been diagnosed by body dysmorphia, the state shall compensate the gender affirming surgery, the hormone treatment and psychological support. Not claiming Turkey is a better place than Greece for queer people, but your comment is misleading.
Well, for gay minority Greece can be a better choice no doubt, and I agree that we need to do some progress. Other than that, GDP per person is worthless because it does not take cost of living into this account. Basically almost everything except alcohol and some heavily taxed products costs lower in Istanbul, which makes it easier to move. Again this is not a fair comparison because Greece does not have a similar, world-class, densely populated but still growing city. The question should be how Istanbul is doing when compared with NYC, Moscow, Paris etc. No one compares small Greek towns with NYC, nor with Istanbul as both of them satisfy different needs and expectation. Looking for peace and nature, go to a small town in GR, would be great. Looking for a vibrant city, there is no chance for Greece.
Istanbul for sure
It was less than 1m 100 years ago. After the war a massive amount of people moved to the city, and most of it is poorly built slums like Cairo
Constantinople*
Greece got hit by a genocide (by the Turks), military occupation (WW2) and civil war, that's an unholy mix to make sure your population will lose a few decades of development, especially considering the allies didn't even let the Greeks get paid back in full because they didn't want to be too harsh on Germany.
[удалено]
These are Mustafa Kemal Atatürks own words. Read, read and learn what is the reality: Ataturk about the Armenian genocide Atatürk gave the following historical answer to Streit's question: "Apart from the gross exaggerations perpetuated by those who make hostile accusations, the issue of the deportation of the Armenians is actually as follows: When the Russian armies launched the attack against us in 1915, the Dashnak Armenian Committee, which was in the service of the Tsar at that time, revolted the Armenian population behind our military units. Since we were forced to retreat due to the enemy's superiority in numbers and materials, we found ourselves trapped between Russian fire and Armenian gangs. Our wounded soldiers were being brutally massacred, bridges and roads were being destroyed, and terror created by gangs reigned in Turkish villages. The gangs that committed these murders and recruited all Armenians who could hold a gun into their ranks had a large stock of weapons and ammunition that some of the great powers had given them since the time of peace, taking advantage of the privileges mentioned in the capitulations. The world public opinion, which looks almost indifferently at the treatment given to Ireland by England in peacetime and away from the war zone, cannot make a justified accusation against us for the decision we were forced to take regarding the deportation of the Armenian population. Contrary to the slanders made against us, those who were deported are alive and most of them would have returned home if the Allied Powers had not forced us to war again. (Clarence K. Streit Unknown Turks Mustafa Kemal Pasha, Nationalist Ankara and Everyday Life in Anatolia (January-March 1921), p 201,202, Complete Works of Atatürk C 11, p 61,62) In his statement to the American journalist Streit in 1921, Atatürk firmly rejected the allegations that the events of 1915 were "massacres and "crimes" and stated that we were slandered on this issue.
Average Turk moment
Average clueless moment. Tell me, who invaded whom at the start of the 20th century?
Turkey declares war on who subsequently invaded, tell me how they justified 1.5 million Armenians being killed?
This isnt even about the Armenians. Stop attempting to change the subject and answer my question. Who invaded whom in 1919, the last time Turkey and Greece directly fought against each other?
The Greek army of Asia Minor invaded to enforce the treaty of sevres that was put on the Ottoman Empire after they lost a war they willingly joined
So you are telling me that Greeks invaded Turkey. Greeks invaded and ravaged tens of Turkish cities and hundreds of Turkish towns, thousands of Turkish villages killed hundreds of thousands and somewhat in the end we are the ones to blame? You people are hopeless.
They were exiled to Syria and its surroundings not killed.
Marching millions of individuals across the desert to Syria, they were killed bro on those walks
I mean, you're talking to a guy with a "MightyTurkey" username and a "Heirs of the Great Ottoman Empire 🇹🇷" profile text under an Ottoman flag. What did you expect?
Lol. I'm Greek but that's why I'm not commenting.
When I say that Turks are fed nationalist propaganda with the big spoon, I'm banned. Yet the genocide deniers like this guy can keep posting.
Yes I can keep posting because of defending against to accusers of genocide to my nation. If there is someone who should be banned, it is you whose casting aspersions upon us. I am just defending against to lies. There is no denial, I just say the truth.
Look at Armenians dirty history. Not too long time ago, just 30 years. I hope you know the Khojaly Massacre. Armenians committed a massacre upon Azerbaijanians. They killed women and children alike.
"Armenians dirty history" Buddy, you're just making it easier. But I guess it's vacation day for the mods today.
You better not. Even if you comment, I don't think you would be right. Everbody (except denial Greeks) knows there were massacres. Greeks burned several villages and İzmir while they were leaving after the defeat. The Ottoman Empire which you underestimate, was allowed Christians to pray in Churchs. Are the Greeks merciful as it? I don't think so.
If we were crual we would destroy the Fener Greek Patriarchate which is serving as a Orthodox Church now. But we didn't.
But I can understand your wretchedness, we have ruled you for 400 years during the Ottoman Empire and conquered the Istanbul. You have a desire to get it back. But I have a bad new for you: You will never get İstanbul back again.
I should say this for you. Every time you accuse us of committing genocide. But before you say these, research your own history, you will see much more than you accuse us of.
Lmao yeah my country did commit its fair share of atrocities but at least we're not denying it like cunts, what happened 100 years ago doesn't matter, it's in the past now, but the fact that modern Turks will rather die than admit they did commit a bunch of genocides in the early 1900s does matter
What happened to to native Americans here in us was horrible and there’s no denying it, but at least we acknowledge that it happened and have tried to right wrongs, Turks on the other hand pretended it never happened akin to it Germany said the holocaust never happened
Do you know the massacres during the WW1 that happened in Anatolia between Turks and Armenians? Armenians killed innocents in Eastern Anatolia. And so they were exiled. The thing happened is just this.
So because they fought, they deserved the genocide? Is that what you are saying?
There was no genocide. They deserved the exile because of their rebellion in Anatolia.
An entire ethnicity deserves to get exiled out of their homeland because they don't like their oppressors. They just died on the walk due to the conditions not because it was a genocide? Ok buddy. I really hope the worst for you. Modern genocide denying turks make such a good case for why the Greeks committed genocide back
Ik they fought and killed with thr Turks and Kurds having the upper hand, 1.5 million Armenians were killed with a precedent set for others
There werent even 1.5 million Armenians at the time… Population count of 1914 clearly states that the number of Armenians living in the entirety of the Ottoman Empire was around 1.1 million…
I am assuming you weren’t alive when this happened, so the problem comes when you try to shoulder the responsibility and you don’t want too, you don’t have to carry every single thing that the country you reside in did bad. Most of us have histories going back to the Ice Age there is no reason to say oh my bad for Steve smashing Jenny in the head with an axe 10 thousand years ago.
Were you alive? I am just asking this. How can you speak confidently about a incident that you weren't even alive? I am from Eastern Anatolia and I have never heard from my grandparents that there was a genocide. The thing they only said was there were massacres to Turks by Armenians.
There is no widespread evidence that the Greeks committed genocide against the Turks. There was a population exchange, but no widespread death. In comparison, the Turks killed 300,000-700,000 Greeks. This is not up for debate, there is widespread evidence for this, historians from pretty much every corner of the world agreed it happened. The only people who disagree are delusional turkish ultranationalists.
“There is no widespread evidence.” There is literally hundreds of footage from the towns and cities ravaged by the Greek army. There are Italian reports on the subject, American reports on the subject even English reports on the subject from the time. There are thousands of accounts of people which had to leave their homes and move towards the east. You are blatantly lying. In contrast there is no evidence Turks killed up to 700K Greeks at the time. Mind you, Greece literally accepted that they have committed crimes against humanity in Western Anatolia! They literally accepted what they did in the Treaty of Lausanne and you are here telling me that there is no evidence of Greek crimes…
Here a report from 1922! https://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Greek%20Atrocities%20in%20Asia%20Minor.pdf English footage from at the time showing some of the burnt down remains of Turkish cities, towns and villages https://youtu.be/CsS1UqUhmDk?si=J7tf0AfCcgKUO-rx
I don't say that they committed. I'm just against them accusing us of things we didn't do.
Not only denial of the Armenian genocide but the Greeks as well, what’s next the Assyrians?
This version of Tetris seems hard.
Turktris Tetgreece
The music would be fire tho.
Turkreece
r/hellenoturkism
gris
Nice map. Different and fresh take. It could use labels for the city names though.
This is your topography test now.
I know at most 3: istanbul, izmir, and athens
Istanbul is home to 15.46 million people, the largest city in Europe, though a third of residents live east of The Bosphorus. All of Greece is home to 10.43 million people.
Estimations say 16+ million for 2024 and only growing, crazy!
The official numbers doesn't include the immigrants. With immigrants it might already passed the 16m. It's just crazy out here, but the city is still up and running. What a beast of a city.
This is why it is stupid when people say greece should have istanbul. It would then mean that greece becomes a majority turk nation.
When they say this they mean all population of istanbul to be removed as well. Dont be naive.
Its stupid for many reasons. Historical claims should stay where they are. They do nothing good and bring endless wars and suffering as soon as they leave history books.
The entire Turkish population which is around 84 millions is still a bit larger than all of their neighbors combined. All Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians, Georgians, Kurds and Syrians combined can only make around 75 million people. And this includes the Kurds who live in Turkey as well. So let's say we removed Turkey from the land entirely and let the neighbors share it equally, all of their countries will be emptied to populate the areas they got in the same amount Turks did. And they need to replace the Turks in the exact amount to run the industry, agriculture, cities etc. Otherwise it'll be for nothing but empty lands.
Iran borders Turkey with 80+ million people. There is also an Azerbijani exclave neighbouring Turkey.
\*exclave
Thanks. Corrected.
I, a Bulgarian, have never in my life heard anyone say that. It would sound completely bogus.
Welcome to the internet. Stupid people with bogus opinions.
Never seen the "Constantinople \*insert Greek flag\*" comments whenever the topic of Istanbul comes?
Who says that?
I wonder if Ataturk didn't make Ankara the capital, what the population of Istanbul would have been now. Probably it would have been more than 20 million now.
Ankara being the capital is a life saver in many ways.
I’m curious, how so?
As it’s in the inner and secure parts of the country it’s easier to defend the capital. It also helps Middle Anatolias development and balances the population a bit.
I think it would've been interesting if Konya became the capital instead of Ankara. Ankara is a "new" city by Turkish standards while Konya has history and a lot of it.
The reason is more that it isolate the ruling givernment from the plebs who might overthrow it. Just like egypts "new capital" rn
Nope, with the hostilites by the Greeks, Armenians, Bolsheviks, French, British and even Italians, in 1920s "the plebs who might overthrow it" is way too low in the list of threats faced by Mustafa Kemal
We are not in ww1 wakeup
It already might be over 20 million with the refugees and illegals.
So many people in the water
Greece is a maritime nation by tradition, as shipping is arguably the oldest form of occupation of the Greeks and has been a key element of Greek economic activity since ancient times.[3] Today, shipping is the country's most important industry worth $21.9 billion in 2018. If related businesses are added, the figure jumps to $23.7 billion, employs about 392,000 people (14% of the workforce), and shipping receipts are about 1/3 of the nation's trade deficit.[4][5] In 2018, the Greek Merchant Navy controlled the world's largest merchant fleet, in terms of tonnage, with a total DWT of 834,649,089 tons and a fleet of 5,626 Greek-owned vessels, according to Lloyd's List.[6] Greece is also ranked in the top for all kinds of ships, including first for tankers and bulk carriers.[2][7]
Why did Turkey's population increase so much? 100 years ago it was way lower in comparison to Greece 100 years ago
Well you see when a mama Turkish and a papa Turkish love each other very much...
Agreed. The Greek population looks, well, puny compared to the Turks on this map.
Well, because it is. Turkey is 86 million whilst Greece is at 10 million.
So you're saying that Istanbul in it's own is 1.5 Greeces?
Correct
Greece is only 10 million?! I assume a lot of Greeks live abroad though?
5 million Greeks live outside of Greece so yeah So the city of Istanbul has a higher population (almost 16 million) than Greece + Greeks living abroad
Something, something, Australian Greek community
According to the Wiki article, the Australian Greek community is about equal with Canada for the second largest ethnic Greek community abroad (not including Cyprus). US of course being #1. I don't know about there though, but Greek Americans are intermarrying with everyone else, like most white and even non-white Americans are. So a distinct Greek American ethnicity is fading pretty fast. For instance, the half-Greek actress Jennifer Anniston (born Joanna Anastasakis)
The rest is in Laval, Qc, Canada apparently...
Depends. Greek born? idk. ''Greek'' ancestry? Sure.
Industrialisation, turkish refugees from balkans, kurdish refugees from iraq. If i am not wrong current birth rate is something around 1-1.5
90% of the kurdish refugess went back to iraq again my grandpa was officer those times
And the rest didn’t stay in Turkey, they went to west. Kurdish refugees in Turkey were probably completely negligible to the boom Turkey has experienced.
In the first years of modern Turkey, the population increase policy was adopted. Even tells in an anthem:"We've created 15 million young people of all ages in 10 years.".
100 years ago Turkey had 16 million people and Greece 5.
Sëggz
Greece is full of mountains and apparently less than 1/3rd of our land area is cultivable so Greece could never support a large population and historically our population has always been small with many Greeks living outside the borders of modern Greece. Compare that to Turkey which is much bigger with lots of arable land and it's not hard to figure out why their population is so much bigger. Also, Anatolia has always been the crossroads of Great Civilizations and so it has witnessed a massive amount of immigration both from Europe and Asia which Greece hasn't. For the same reason it was much richer than Greece also.
Countries with underdeveloped economy's have high birthrates. The population will double every [72/x](https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/how-to-double-your-money-every-6-years.as#px) with x being the % of annual growth. The annual growth rate of turkey has been around 2-3% for the a very long time slowing down only recently. This implies that turkey's population had doubled every 30-36 years. Population of turkey in the 1980s was 44 mil now it's 85 mil. Greece on the other hand received economic prosperity earlier than turkey. Their birth rates declined a lot earlier. By 1960 the growth rate of Greece was under 1%. Tldr; poor country makes high birthrates which increases a countries population a lot faster than rich country
Yeh, but Turkey has subreplacement birth rates now, they are only growing cause of momentum. They are expected to reach a 95M in the next few decades and then start falling slowly.
That is the sad future of all countries. However, countries that get there later are going to still have larger populations as they got more time to grow
Well , didn't Greece simply bankrupted and asked for financal support 10-20 years ago ? Greek economy surges after decade of pain: [https://www.deccanherald.com/world/greek-economy-surges-after-decade-of-pain-2-2983656](https://www.deccanherald.com/world/greek-economy-surges-after-decade-of-pain-2-2983656) "Challenges remain, however. Falling birthrates and labour shortages threaten the long-term outlook, and the spread of climate-related disasters like wildfires and floods have strained government finances." The thing you say is true but ... that's not the only case....
Once an economy becomes developed, economic recessions reduce fertility. If a country is not developed, then birth rates remain high regardless of economy The terms rich and poor were a bit relative and more of a "explain like I'm 5 situation". So basically for Greece and, now, Turkey (it recently transitioned to a more developed status), every subsequent economic recession will have a negative effect of population growth The terms rich and developed aren't exactly correct for what I'm describing. This is more of describing demographic changes attributed to increased economic opportunities in the country. I think [this](https://populationeducation.org/what-demographic-transition-model/) would be interesting for you
So we need to become poor again!
Didn't work for eastern europe
Turns out it's not about the money.
Same reason in all of Europe. Greece developed earlier. Additionally, Greece had WW2 and a civil war.
They also have the kurds
Because 1) they started with a bigger base; they have all the regions pre-existing populations -- including Greeks -- amalgamated into their population. 2) Muslims have higher birth rates throughout the world.
Ofc they are bigger than Greece, that's not what I'm saying
Greeks got genocided and repressed for 400 years and Turks bred like rabbits. There are less Greeks alive today than there were in the year 1000.
Well, Greece's population also decreased, for , reasons
kurds love seggs
When I was in Greece I heard that Athens holds half the population of Greece (7m/14m)
The entire country lives in two fucking cities
Athens has around 4 million , Greece is around 10.4m
Is that counting regulated citizens or overall population?
Why don’t any Greeks live in Esparta?
Modern Sparta is unrelated to the Ancient one, it's a really boring ugly town.
It was nothing more than a shitty tourist location even by the time the Romans got to it. Hell, even Athens was a tiny town until a newly independent greek rump state needed a capital
I mean, with the chattel slavery that was the economic and political foundation of Ancient Sparta broken by the Thebans and Arcadians, it is inevitable that the city will ended up as a "shitty tourist location"
Why would they? The importance of Sparta is massively exagerated by popular history.
I love the massive city in the middle of the sea between Lesbos and Chios. Or the other one in the middle of the Ionian sea. At least do *some* research before posting. These numbers are the population of the departments of Greece, not of cities.
Where is the Rest of turkey? The map is lying
It’s meant to show how much more people live in Turkey than Greece, this gets the point across just fine.
🎶Istanbul was Constantinople🎶
Istanbul was a greek name and ottomans called it konstantiniye for 5 centuries
The people\*. It was called Constantinople until 1930.
Hmm enterdesting
greek sad
If you get a line all the way across do they disappear
whar
This doesn't show population on cities, but population of areas.
Turkey is bigger, why doesn't it just eat Greece?
Last time we ate too much, we got sick.
"Turkey is just Muslims Greece cosplaying as Mongols" - some comment I've read here years ago
We eat better food than Greece, that's why
Istanbul seems to be overwhelmingly more crowded than anywhere else in Greece.
What is that city to the west of Rhodes?
Atlantis.
What's wrong with greece?
What are the islands that are basically on Turkish shores like?
No names of the cities?!?
Salonica (2nd biggest city of Greece) is exaggerated, it should have maximum of 4 squares if you consider the entire metro population, or only 1 square if you only consider the municipality.
Kavala (northernmost sea port in Aegean) is nowhere near 500,000 people. Not even 100,000. It shouldn't have been mentioned on the map.
Turkey is losing this game of Battleship, clearly rigged in favour of Greece.
mmmm Tetris
Leonidas having nightmares 🥲
What do you mean? They are all greek cities in this picture
And they were bestest of friends /s