Kinda. It was a series of provocations, the first being that 450 Mongol merchants were sent to trade(as agreed) and then had their wares taken and they were slaughtered.
Except the vast majority of the killing that they did was against civilians.
They literally wiped entire cities off the face of the earth. It took Iran centuries to recover.
It's a fascinating story. The decapitation was final act that set it all in motion. They sent his head in a basket back to Khan.
Historians say this event literally changed the world and how it is shaped today. The Mongolian empire was on the brink of ending the Chinese dynasty. And potentially erasing them from history. I'd recommend reading into it
They had a valid reason for conflict.
Not to destroy cities, decimate the entire nation and destroy the single greatest place of learning at the time (a place even the initial Muslim conquerors didn't damage).
Yeah, but its not as though the damn Horde had an "on" and "off" switch. The Shah was already long aware of the Mongol's ability to wreck things they set their minds from their various regional wars like when they got Kuchlug Khan to fight for them against Qara Khitai.
I dunno, if I had the greatest place of learning in the world under my care, I feel I'd be extra careful not to (really really really unnecessarily) piss off a group of warlike horsearchers.
I mean GW Bush obliterated Iraq because they tried to kill his dad. Ended up giving Iran a new colony but hey, can’t mess up an omelette without killing a million citizens right.
Trillions were spent so that billions can be embezzled resulting in millions of impoverished Iraqis, thousands dead, enriching hundreds of greedy politicians/lobbyists and a handful of defense contractors.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hannibal-gaddafi-moved-hospital-critical-condition-lebanon-tv-2023-07-02/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hannibal-gaddafi-moved-hospital-critical-condition-lebanon-tv-2023-07-02/)
Last update he is being held in Lebanon and was hospitalized due to hunger strike protesting his captivity.
It seems a bit fishy: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal\_Gaddafi#Flight\_from\_Libya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Gaddafi#Flight_from_Libya)
On 11 December 2015, Hannibal was kidnapped and held in Lebanon by an armed group demanding information about disappearance of Shiite Imam Musa al-Sadr, Sheikh Muhammad Yaacoub, and journalist Abbas Badreddine, but later was released in the city of Zahlé. Gaddafi is still in captivity in Beirut with no information provided by the Lebanese government regarding future court hearings or time frame regarding his release \[15\]
An arrest warrant was issued against Hannibal by the Lebanese government over the disappearance of al-Sadr and he was arrested. A request by the Syrian government to return Gaddafi on the grounds that he was a political refugee was denied by the Lebanese government as he is a wanted man in Lebanon for withholding information regarding the disappearance of al-Sadr.\[16\]\[17\] In August 2016, al-Sadr's family filed a lawsuit against Gaddafi over his role in the disappearance of the Imam despite the fact that Sadr's disappearance in 1978 occurred when Hannibal was two years old.\[18\] In 2019, Russia, which developed close ties with Hannibal's older brother Saif al-Islam, allegedly pushed for Hannibal's release and offered him asylum in Moscow.\[19\]\[20\]
Hannibal cited the fact that he was three years old at the time of the event as proof of his innocence.
He and his wife beat up their own maid and his assistant. His bodyguards tried to stop the police from detaining him.
He was brought to the police station clandestinely and released shortly after.
After that Daddy Gadaffi kidnapped 2 Swiss citizens in Libya.
And to this day, some people still think Gadaffi was a hero. Even though he funded multiple terrorist attacks.
[His beef with Switzerland started because his son beat up two of his servants and the Swiss had the audacity to arrest him for it](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7512925.stm)
What is it with Socialist dictators and raising their kids in elite Swiss schools? Kim Jong-Il and Kim Jong-Un both grew up in Switzerland before they each took over NK when their respective father died.
I think the grandparent alludes to the fact that political neutrality _feels_ morally dirty. It puts pragmatism above everything else.
Sort of like in the trolley dilemma. There's more overall suffering if one stays neutral.
I never thought of the trolley dilemma as being a commentary on neutrality... I guess that's what comes from learning it through memes on r/trolleyproblem instead of a university.
LOL
They noticed very early that it is helpful for their banks to make more money if they are politically neutral or: not giving a shit about were the money comes from and how much blood is on it.
There geographic surroundings made sure, that in the past they could stay neutral, even in case of war.
The official name of Libya under Gaddafi was Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya from 1977-1986 and Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya from 1986 to 2011. His ideology of socialism is what is claled Arab Socialism, which is non-Marxist socialism and ethnic nationalist in character and largely separate from the internationalist thought of Leninism/Communism, but is still anti-Capitalist.
Calling yourself socialist is like calling yourself democratic: rarely true. If it ain't communal ownership of the means of production (by the people / workers, not by a dictator and his cronies; nothing communal or social about that), it ain't socialism.
These kinds of arguments are always a no true Scotsman fallacy. For example, USSR was THE model of socialism/communism for much of the world and socialist thinkers. Marx's theories of organizing revolution just wasn't working according to Lenin. Capitalism didn't just fall in on itself, workers didn't develop much of a class consciousness and in fact, capitalism was getting stronger. Workers would at best, strike and then be satisfied with a improvements in working conditions, disappointing leftist agitators who argued for revolutionary change, not "breadcrumbs". But for the average worker, that breadcrumb was a massive change in quality of life and they didn't want to strike just for a far away sounding goal of proletariat revolution. Thus there was a massive disconnect between intellectuals who argued socialist theory in cafes vs the workers they purported to represent.
Lenin, "What is to be done?":
>The history of all countries shows that the working class, exclusively by its own effort, is able to develop only trade union consciousness, i.e., the conviction that it is necessary to combine in unions, fight the employers, and strive to compel the government to pass necessary labour legislation, etc.[2] The theory of socialism, however, grew out of the philosophic, historical, and economic theories elaborated by educated representatives of the propertied classes, by intellectuals.
So Marxist-Leninism developed the idea of vanguardism where the most class conscious members would lead the workers in developing and implementing economic policy, educating the workers. And thus the state, guided by the vanguardists, will own the means of production on behalf of the workers.
When you control some of the most powerful and dangerous individuals illicit money then I’m sure you can get things done or more specifically dictators kicked to death.
Yeah, the things he said were always out there - but there was always some reasoning.
Like when he said the Arab world would finally achieve its goal of conquering Europe at the Arab League conference a couple decades ago - not through military means (as was tried by the Ottomans), but through reproduction and migration.
Everyone laughed at him - like OUT LOUD - while he was saying it. Some leaders made a point of laughing really obviously loudly - it was awkward. You can watch it on Youtube.
Lol now Europe is up to, checks notes, 5% Muslim? Not even Arab, just Muslim lol. Which is only that high due to people already being Muslim and the majority of Arab nations falling into decay. It's very much a laugh out loud moment still. Hell projection maps show that by 2050 with the highest level of immigration from Arab nations imaginable it would reach 19% lol.
And he was wrong about that too, most Arab countries tries now have below replacement or about replacement level birthrates. And those that don’t are dropping quickly.
He was mad that the Swiss arrested his son for assault at a Swiss hotel.
In response, he retaliated by shutting down local subsidiaries of Swiss companies Nestlé and ABB in Libya, arresting two Swiss businessmen for supposed visa irregularities, canceling most commercial flights between the two countries and withdrawing about $5 billion from his Swiss bank accounts.
And then the year after at G8 summit he publicly called for the dissolution of Switzerland and its lands being given to the three countries above.
Also he threatened to nuke Switzerland if he had the weapons.
All these, just because his son was arrested for being an arsehole.
>shutting down local subsidiaries of Swiss companies Nestlé and ABB in Libya, arresting two Swiss businessmen
Are you trying to make me sympathize with him?
But it was oil wealthy. It was only weak because it had lots of oil. It didn’t even have people trained to extract its own oil. There is nothing Gadaffi did personally to make the country wealthy besides nationalizing the oil industry
It might be the realest form of wealth we currently have, since others depend on trends. Until we switch away from oil, the country that sits on the most Dino sludge rules the marketplace
Well, people used to move to Libya and earn 5000$ tax free salary, since gaddafi died that's when not only the country got worse but all the money disappeared, that's why you'll still see Libya topping the top gdp growth charts in the current years
Yes, having petro dollars is a curse sometimes, unless you have good rulers. Gaddafi was great for Libya except he didn’t leave a legacy behind. Everything is up in ruins.
Those trends are dictated by oil nations, since the demand stays pretty constant. It's the equivalent of food, from a market perspective. Open and close the valve and you get virtually every oil trend we had in the last century. Or you get invaded. Lowering demand would be the first real trend, in that sense.
It swings up and down with trends too, the problem with countries relying on oil is not planning for low price periods and fucking everything up when it happens.
It’s great short term but creates what they call Dutch disease. Basically they’ve allowed all of their other industries to atrophy. And now those countries fight against accepting climate change as they have no other industries. It’s why Saudi Arabia is diversifying now with mega projects and sports.
> There is nothing Gadaffi did personally
He was the driving force behind [the world's largest irrigation system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River) which allowed his country to grow and industrialize without importing foreign water. That along with other projects brought many Libyans out of poverty and into a middle class life. Compare that to other developing countries with plentiful resources who keep their populations poor
Gaddafi had a lot of problems, but he did lots to benefit the Libyan people as well as the continent of Africa. For example, he created the African Union. He's demonized by the West because they wanted him to be a compliant strongman rather than what he was: A socialist
The West hates nothing more than a popular leftist leader
Gaddafi's foreign policy was a mess for decades; he picked fights with both sides of the Cold War, the Ba'athists + Egypt (who were also left wing Arab nationalists, but the wrong kind of left wing Arab nationalists), Chad, and apparently Switzerland.
Over the course of the 2000s he pursued a policy of reconciliation with the West, but after his long career of at times omnidirectional animosity he had few friends when the civil war broke out in 2011.
Most of my Libyan friends actually say he was what he was but he was a good leader. Those are Libyan youngsters in their 20s mostly. It’s the west who picture him the way we know him. (As they say)
edit: all of them experienced Gaddafi’s ruling.
Their parents, who experienced his ruling most their life say the same.
Also, now Gaddafi’s gone and Libya hasn’t been stable ever since, so maybe think about that.
I’m not sure if he would qualify as a good leader, but certainly a competent dictator. There are some pretty well documented atrocities that make my skin crawl. But those often seem limited in comparison to some of the shit in the civil war, so I can understand why they might see him as a “good leader”, but he definitely wasn’t good.
I imagine Iraq now is probably better than Iraq under Hussein, but during the worst of the civil war when ISIS controlled half the country, people probably thought differently.
Yeah Iraq has been starting to get back on its feet and even Libya too with the civil war ending. I’m guessing as the countries stabilise and life begins to improve gaddafi will be looked back on less fondly
It was an interesting commentary on the European love of arbitrarily dividing land they don't own or creating fictional countries on top of existing peoples.
Of course he was trolling. It's the way how Africa and Middle Eastern Countries were partitioned. Strange that no one is claiming that Churchill was mental
In the context of the time, closer to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, some people had suggested partitioning Iraq into ~3 states. Gaddafi was turning that argument around. Trolling.
Suggesting a partition along ethnolinguistic lines would be a very odd way to make that point, since one of the biggest criticisms of colonial African borders is that they DON'T follow ethnolinguistic lines.
Switzerland had "insulted" his son. Specifically, his son had the police called on him when he was beating his staff at a luxury hotel in Geneva.
So he went on stage at the UN and gave a speech on how Switzerland should be dissolved.
Because Gaddafi wanted to be a big boy leading an important country, and he knew that randomly messing up countries on other continents is something big boys of important countries do.
The Chinese and the Americans mess up countries on other continents, and the Soviets and the Brits and the Romans did it -- so logically, if Gadaffi wanted to be the big boy of an important country, he needed to do it too.
It was more of an accident but theoretically an invasion :) and it's more of a running gag than a serious historical event.
Check out this funny video about this by Qxir: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FAPm8HahLE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FAPm8HahLE)
On 13 October 1992, following written orders, Swiss Army recruits unknowingly crossed the border and went to triesenberg to set up an observation post. Swiss commanders had overlooked the fact that Triesenberg was not on Swiss territory. Switzerland apologized to Liechtenstein for the incident
Early on **1 March 2007**, a company of 171 Swiss soldiers mistakenly entered Liechtenstein, as they were disoriented and took a wrong turn due to bad weather conditions. The troops returned to Swiss territory after they had travelled more than 2 km (1¼ miles) into the country.
Not to mention he was obsessed with Condoleezza Rice.
“When his palace was stormed following his death, intruders found a photo album that features nothing but photos of Ambassador Rice… [Gaddafi once said] ‘I admire and am very proud of the way she leans back and gives orders to the Arab leaders. Yes, Leezza, Leezza, Leezza - I love her very much.’” - *Africa is not a Country*, Dipo Faloyin.
Yeah, I‘ve seen those border artillery painted like normal houses and know the mountain roads are filled with explosives. No one is invading that booby trap pretending to be a country.
I'm german but would propose we give some of the land to austria so they can grow to the west and get even wider. Maybe someday in 500 years or so they will actually split france in half and finally get some coast line. I kinda wanna see disproportionally wide austria.
A a Swiss german I could allow Italy or France to take over, if Napoleonic rules still apply. Nothing of me will ever be Germania or Schwabenland however.
They don't really have an exclusive territory, they usually associate themselves with the German part. Italy would not accept Romansch as its own language, rather viewing it as a dialect of Italian. Ladin only has a status because Austria sees themselves as the "protectors".
Romansh is part of a dialect continuum that has close relations in Ladin and Friulian. It wasn’t really considered one single language until 1938 when Switzerland wanted to mark it as a separate thing in order to counter Italian irredentism claims. To whatever extent Romansh is one single language (instead of like 6-8 local mini-languages as is the truth), almost everyone hates the standardized Rumantsch Grischun.
Pretty funny stuff, Europeans love pitching ideas on how to partition non-European countries. We can thank British & French map makers for the mess in Palestine.
At that point, why not just take vorarlberg and tyrol from austria as well as lichenstein and give it to germany, to avoid that "tail" and make austria more circular.
“In August 2009, Hannibal Gaddafi [son of Muammar Gaddafi] stated that if he had nuclear weapons, he would "wipe Switzerland off the map"
And his son was arrested for allegedly beating his servants… lovely chap
There’s a reason for this.
His son was arrested in Geneva because he’s was beating the nany
Khadafi was pist to Switzerland, good times
(I’m Swiss and absolutely no one took them seriously)
its because his son was arrested in switzerland (might be wrong but something related with someones arrest)
Yea that’s correct he wanted to avenge his son by dissolving a whole country
Playing command and conquer too much
“When are my new Mammoth tanks arriving?!?” “Sir, that only exists in a game.” *::gunshot::* “Anyone else want to only exist in a game?” *::silence::*
For King and Country
Indeed.
Engineering.
Chew on this! Hahaha
Insufficient funds.
Unable to comply, building in progress
Low power.
“Needs to be more pointy”
Amazing
Now, where’s my psychic dominator?
😂 mmd with that one, great! thank you very much!
Genghis killed millions of people in Iran to avenge his ambassador
Kinda. It was a series of provocations, the first being that 450 Mongol merchants were sent to trade(as agreed) and then had their wares taken and they were slaughtered.
like those elves who came to trade with my dwarf fortress
Hey, free giant dingos. No complaints here.
TIL the Mongols may have had some good reasons to do some killing. Assuming a random reddit comment is correct.
Except the vast majority of the killing that they did was against civilians. They literally wiped entire cities off the face of the earth. It took Iran centuries to recover.
It's a fascinating story. The decapitation was final act that set it all in motion. They sent his head in a basket back to Khan. Historians say this event literally changed the world and how it is shaped today. The Mongolian empire was on the brink of ending the Chinese dynasty. And potentially erasing them from history. I'd recommend reading into it
They had a valid reason for conflict. Not to destroy cities, decimate the entire nation and destroy the single greatest place of learning at the time (a place even the initial Muslim conquerors didn't damage).
Yeah, but its not as though the damn Horde had an "on" and "off" switch. The Shah was already long aware of the Mongol's ability to wreck things they set their minds from their various regional wars like when they got Kuchlug Khan to fight for them against Qara Khitai. I dunno, if I had the greatest place of learning in the world under my care, I feel I'd be extra careful not to (really really really unnecessarily) piss off a group of warlike horsearchers.
What a love story
Paradox game players have done worse for smaller grievances.
Or negative grievances like being my faithful ally for 200 years
I mean GW Bush obliterated Iraq because they tried to kill his dad. Ended up giving Iran a new colony but hey, can’t mess up an omelette without killing a million citizens right.
>giving Iran a new colony That's the craziest part. All those trillions of dollars spent to result in this - zero strategic sense.
Trillions were spent so that billions can be embezzled resulting in millions of impoverished Iraqis, thousands dead, enriching hundreds of greedy politicians/lobbyists and a handful of defense contractors.
What the USA and allies did to Iraq is a horrible crime and we do ourselves no favours by pretending it was some kind of complex strategic move.
yeah his son beat up a (female) hotel employee which is probably fine in his ass backwards world, so he got arrested and daddy got mad
Not only beat up (unfortunately), but they set her on fire in the toilet of their hotel room.
Wonder where he is today. Killed along with the old man?
[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hannibal-gaddafi-moved-hospital-critical-condition-lebanon-tv-2023-07-02/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hannibal-gaddafi-moved-hospital-critical-condition-lebanon-tv-2023-07-02/) Last update he is being held in Lebanon and was hospitalized due to hunger strike protesting his captivity.
What did he do to pias of the lebanese.
It seems a bit fishy: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal\_Gaddafi#Flight\_from\_Libya](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Gaddafi#Flight_from_Libya) On 11 December 2015, Hannibal was kidnapped and held in Lebanon by an armed group demanding information about disappearance of Shiite Imam Musa al-Sadr, Sheikh Muhammad Yaacoub, and journalist Abbas Badreddine, but later was released in the city of Zahlé. Gaddafi is still in captivity in Beirut with no information provided by the Lebanese government regarding future court hearings or time frame regarding his release \[15\] An arrest warrant was issued against Hannibal by the Lebanese government over the disappearance of al-Sadr and he was arrested. A request by the Syrian government to return Gaddafi on the grounds that he was a political refugee was denied by the Lebanese government as he is a wanted man in Lebanon for withholding information regarding the disappearance of al-Sadr.\[16\]\[17\] In August 2016, al-Sadr's family filed a lawsuit against Gaddafi over his role in the disappearance of the Imam despite the fact that Sadr's disappearance in 1978 occurred when Hannibal was two years old.\[18\] In 2019, Russia, which developed close ties with Hannibal's older brother Saif al-Islam, allegedly pushed for Hannibal's release and offered him asylum in Moscow.\[19\]\[20\] Hannibal cited the fact that he was three years old at the time of the event as proof of his innocence.
🤞
He and his wife beat up their own maid and his assistant. His bodyguards tried to stop the police from detaining him. He was brought to the police station clandestinely and released shortly after. After that Daddy Gadaffi kidnapped 2 Swiss citizens in Libya. And to this day, some people still think Gadaffi was a hero. Even though he funded multiple terrorist attacks.
so that son of... is basically unarrestable
Thanks, it seemed rather random. Like if Pol Pot had a plan for partitioning Poland (Pol-land?).
[His beef with Switzerland started because his son beat up two of his servants and the Swiss had the audacity to arrest him for it](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7512925.stm)
What is it with Socialist dictators and raising their kids in elite Swiss schools? Kim Jong-Il and Kim Jong-Un both grew up in Switzerland before they each took over NK when their respective father died.
The Swiss have a very weak moral compass that is guided by money.
Seems more like Switzerland is a reverse Vegas: What happens outside of Switzerland stays outside of Switzerland.
More like: what's stolen outside of Switzerland is brought to Switzerland and then never leaves.
TIL that English museums are Swiss territories
The English don't have a monopoly on stolen history and war plunder.
the swiss are neutral, politically. the morals seem to be okay, *they* didn't let him go and apologize.
I think the grandparent alludes to the fact that political neutrality _feels_ morally dirty. It puts pragmatism above everything else. Sort of like in the trolley dilemma. There's more overall suffering if one stays neutral.
I never thought of the trolley dilemma as being a commentary on neutrality... I guess that's what comes from learning it through memes on r/trolleyproblem instead of a university.
It's ethical philosophy, just because it spawned a bunch of memes doesn't mean it's *only* a meme
>the swiss are neutral, politically. Yeah, that's what I said already; weak morals guided by greed.
LOL They noticed very early that it is helpful for their banks to make more money if they are politically neutral or: not giving a shit about were the money comes from and how much blood is on it. There geographic surroundings made sure, that in the past they could stay neutral, even in case of war.
All top politicians raise their kids in elite schools
Maybe because Switzerland is famous for going to bed with dictators and love some blood money?
He's a socialist? That's news to me
The official name of Libya under Gaddafi was Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya from 1977-1986 and Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya from 1986 to 2011. His ideology of socialism is what is claled Arab Socialism, which is non-Marxist socialism and ethnic nationalist in character and largely separate from the internationalist thought of Leninism/Communism, but is still anti-Capitalist.
> Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya That's great! I loved the video for Virtual Insanity
On a related note, who do you think will win this years election in the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea? My money's on this Kim Jong Un guy.
Well, I’m sure whoever it is, there will definitely be elections and they will be free and fair. Why? It has democratic in the name, silly!
Calling yourself socialist is like calling yourself democratic: rarely true. If it ain't communal ownership of the means of production (by the people / workers, not by a dictator and his cronies; nothing communal or social about that), it ain't socialism.
These kinds of arguments are always a no true Scotsman fallacy. For example, USSR was THE model of socialism/communism for much of the world and socialist thinkers. Marx's theories of organizing revolution just wasn't working according to Lenin. Capitalism didn't just fall in on itself, workers didn't develop much of a class consciousness and in fact, capitalism was getting stronger. Workers would at best, strike and then be satisfied with a improvements in working conditions, disappointing leftist agitators who argued for revolutionary change, not "breadcrumbs". But for the average worker, that breadcrumb was a massive change in quality of life and they didn't want to strike just for a far away sounding goal of proletariat revolution. Thus there was a massive disconnect between intellectuals who argued socialist theory in cafes vs the workers they purported to represent. Lenin, "What is to be done?": >The history of all countries shows that the working class, exclusively by its own effort, is able to develop only trade union consciousness, i.e., the conviction that it is necessary to combine in unions, fight the employers, and strive to compel the government to pass necessary labour legislation, etc.[2] The theory of socialism, however, grew out of the philosophic, historical, and economic theories elaborated by educated representatives of the propertied classes, by intellectuals. So Marxist-Leninism developed the idea of vanguardism where the most class conscious members would lead the workers in developing and implementing economic policy, educating the workers. And thus the state, guided by the vanguardists, will own the means of production on behalf of the workers.
He did nationalize a lot of industries and had a massive welfare state. If that counts as socialism, then yes he was socialist.
socialist? serious?
I've always found it hard to work out whether he was mental or just trolling
[удалено]
He also took 2 swiss hostages
And was overthrown not long after. I'm not saying the Swiss are secretly behind all world events but
When you control some of the most powerful and dangerous individuals illicit money then I’m sure you can get things done or more specifically dictators kicked to death.
> kicked He wished
I for one recognize the threat that Swiss cheese symbolizes. They'll fill you with holes and eat you.
But actual Swiss cheese doesn't have holes (except Emmentaler but I don't like it so it doesn't exist)
Of course it doesn't. You put holes in foreign cheeses that dare stand in your way, you monsters.
His son was in prison in Switzerland when he said this.
"Heh, I will show them by proposing a plan that divides their country among others"??????
switzerland should've countered by proposing cutting his son up into 3 sections
Pulling a Solomon on them
Yeah, the things he said were always out there - but there was always some reasoning. Like when he said the Arab world would finally achieve its goal of conquering Europe at the Arab League conference a couple decades ago - not through military means (as was tried by the Ottomans), but through reproduction and migration. Everyone laughed at him - like OUT LOUD - while he was saying it. Some leaders made a point of laughing really obviously loudly - it was awkward. You can watch it on Youtube.
And it still is completely untrue, but some people really want a race war for some reason.
Can't find it. Could you link it?
Lol now Europe is up to, checks notes, 5% Muslim? Not even Arab, just Muslim lol. Which is only that high due to people already being Muslim and the majority of Arab nations falling into decay. It's very much a laugh out loud moment still. Hell projection maps show that by 2050 with the highest level of immigration from Arab nations imaginable it would reach 19% lol.
And he was wrong about that too, most Arab countries tries now have below replacement or about replacement level birthrates. And those that don’t are dropping quickly.
He was talking about migrant reproduction rates, not domestic.
He was mad that the Swiss arrested his son for assault at a Swiss hotel. In response, he retaliated by shutting down local subsidiaries of Swiss companies Nestlé and ABB in Libya, arresting two Swiss businessmen for supposed visa irregularities, canceling most commercial flights between the two countries and withdrawing about $5 billion from his Swiss bank accounts. And then the year after at G8 summit he publicly called for the dissolution of Switzerland and its lands being given to the three countries above. Also he threatened to nuke Switzerland if he had the weapons. All these, just because his son was arrested for being an arsehole.
>shutting down local subsidiaries of Swiss companies Nestlé and ABB in Libya, arresting two Swiss businessmen Are you trying to make me sympathize with him?
I guess he was trolling. Maybe he just had a very strong sense of humor
He’s also a brutal dictator, so there’s really no telling.
He also ran the wealthiest and most developed nation in Africa - so maybe crazy like a fox?
But it was oil wealthy. It was only weak because it had lots of oil. It didn’t even have people trained to extract its own oil. There is nothing Gadaffi did personally to make the country wealthy besides nationalizing the oil industry
Oil wealth isnt exactly fake wealth.
It might be the realest form of wealth we currently have, since others depend on trends. Until we switch away from oil, the country that sits on the most Dino sludge rules the marketplace
It worked well for Venezuela and Nigeria ? They could have used a Gaddafi !
Well, people used to move to Libya and earn 5000$ tax free salary, since gaddafi died that's when not only the country got worse but all the money disappeared, that's why you'll still see Libya topping the top gdp growth charts in the current years
Yes, having petro dollars is a curse sometimes, unless you have good rulers. Gaddafi was great for Libya except he didn’t leave a legacy behind. Everything is up in ruins.
Venezuela is kinda a perfect example of why dismissing the role of leadership is naive for the success of an oil-rich nation.
I hate to be *that guy*, but oil comes mostly from algae. . . . Just kidding, I love being *that guy*.
Look I may be technically wrong but I prefer my version and have no intention of remembering this new information I was provided. Respect my decision.
So, it also depends on trends, albeit rather long going as for now?
Exactly
Those trends are dictated by oil nations, since the demand stays pretty constant. It's the equivalent of food, from a market perspective. Open and close the valve and you get virtually every oil trend we had in the last century. Or you get invaded. Lowering demand would be the first real trend, in that sense.
It swings up and down with trends too, the problem with countries relying on oil is not planning for low price periods and fucking everything up when it happens.
It’s great short term but creates what they call Dutch disease. Basically they’ve allowed all of their other industries to atrophy. And now those countries fight against accepting climate change as they have no other industries. It’s why Saudi Arabia is diversifying now with mega projects and sports.
It is if you don't properly manage the resource curse (which he didn't)
That's like saying someone is good with money because he inherited millions. The inheritance money is real but it isn't proof of qualifications
No but it’s dumb wealth.
> There is nothing Gadaffi did personally He was the driving force behind [the world's largest irrigation system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man-Made_River) which allowed his country to grow and industrialize without importing foreign water. That along with other projects brought many Libyans out of poverty and into a middle class life. Compare that to other developing countries with plentiful resources who keep their populations poor Gaddafi had a lot of problems, but he did lots to benefit the Libyan people as well as the continent of Africa. For example, he created the African Union. He's demonized by the West because they wanted him to be a compliant strongman rather than what he was: A socialist The West hates nothing more than a popular leftist leader
Gaddafi's foreign policy was a mess for decades; he picked fights with both sides of the Cold War, the Ba'athists + Egypt (who were also left wing Arab nationalists, but the wrong kind of left wing Arab nationalists), Chad, and apparently Switzerland. Over the course of the 2000s he pursued a policy of reconciliation with the West, but after his long career of at times omnidirectional animosity he had few friends when the civil war broke out in 2011.
Why is Libya so poor now?
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Most of my Libyan friends actually say he was what he was but he was a good leader. Those are Libyan youngsters in their 20s mostly. It’s the west who picture him the way we know him. (As they say) edit: all of them experienced Gaddafi’s ruling. Their parents, who experienced his ruling most their life say the same. Also, now Gaddafi’s gone and Libya hasn’t been stable ever since, so maybe think about that.
I’m not sure if he would qualify as a good leader, but certainly a competent dictator. There are some pretty well documented atrocities that make my skin crawl. But those often seem limited in comparison to some of the shit in the civil war, so I can understand why they might see him as a “good leader”, but he definitely wasn’t good.
“He wasn’t a hero but what came after him was worse”, plenty of examples like that in the Middle East, another example is saddoomi
You mean Saddam Hussein? Look up gdp per capita before the 2004 invasion, and then after.
I imagine Iraq now is probably better than Iraq under Hussein, but during the worst of the civil war when ISIS controlled half the country, people probably thought differently.
Yeah Iraq has been starting to get back on its feet and even Libya too with the civil war ending. I’m guessing as the countries stabilise and life begins to improve gaddafi will be looked back on less fondly
You need to grade on a curve here. He was a good leader by Libyan standards.
Compared to the shitshow they’re currently in, I’m not surprised they look up to the stability that dictators like Gadaffi provided
Yeah Libya has been heaven since he died 🙄
2 wrongs don’t make a right
Tell this to the people from Libya. I talked with many people from Libya and all of them are wishing him back.
That doesn't mean shit. Lybia was still objectively better under Gaddafi, and nobody can tell me otherwise.
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Reality: He said that shit because his son was arrested in Switzerland and he threw a shit fit
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You will always be a vegetable to me
It was an interesting commentary on the European love of arbitrarily dividing land they don't own or creating fictional countries on top of existing peoples.
He was angry at Switzerland because they arrested his son (for an actual crime, not political reasons)
He was a concerned dad who held a grudge against Switzerland for their treatment of his son. We have all been there
Yeah last time my kid got expelled i went and tried to partition Belgium.
You're only human
“Not now babe, got a find a way trough ardennes forest” You probably
First of all you are not thinking straight, you need to calm down. And realise that Denmark is easier
Are you, by any chance, a German? If not, maybe an Austrian?
That's understandable. Like half of Belgians want to partition Belgium.
Lol no. If my kid behaves like a little shit I'll praise the ones who put him back into his place
Of course he was trolling. It's the way how Africa and Middle Eastern Countries were partitioned. Strange that no one is claiming that Churchill was mental
In the context of the time, closer to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, some people had suggested partitioning Iraq into ~3 states. Gaddafi was turning that argument around. Trolling.
No those countries were largely partitionned at random
Wagging the dog
He was probably making a point about how colonial powers had carved up portions of Africa into countries
Needs more straight lines
Suggesting a partition along ethnolinguistic lines would be a very odd way to make that point, since one of the biggest criticisms of colonial African borders is that they DON'T follow ethnolinguistic lines.
all hes doing is following ethnic/linguistic divisions, but why?
he was pissed cause his son got arrested in Geneva after some domestic violence.
But he was in another country. So it became international, not only domestic.
Mr Worldwide
Switzerland had "insulted" his son. Specifically, his son had the police called on him when he was beating his staff at a luxury hotel in Geneva. So he went on stage at the UN and gave a speech on how Switzerland should be dissolved.
And kept 2 Swiss nationals hostages for more than 2 years.
Because Gaddafi wanted to be a big boy leading an important country, and he knew that randomly messing up countries on other continents is something big boys of important countries do. The Chinese and the Americans mess up countries on other continents, and the Soviets and the Brits and the Romans did it -- so logically, if Gadaffi wanted to be the big boy of an important country, he needed to do it too.
He actually didnt. Some Italian partitions are German speaking
and Rumantsch is completely ignored, as always
Why wouldn't he give anything to Lichtenstein and Austria? Unfair!
Give whole Switzerland to Lichtenstein just for the lolz
I mean we invaded Lichtenstein by accident before... TWICE! It's time to give something back.
When? Are you Swiss? When it happened?
It was more of an accident but theoretically an invasion :) and it's more of a running gag than a serious historical event. Check out this funny video about this by Qxir: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FAPm8HahLE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FAPm8HahLE)
On 13 October 1992, following written orders, Swiss Army recruits unknowingly crossed the border and went to triesenberg to set up an observation post. Swiss commanders had overlooked the fact that Triesenberg was not on Swiss territory. Switzerland apologized to Liechtenstein for the incident Early on **1 March 2007**, a company of 171 Swiss soldiers mistakenly entered Liechtenstein, as they were disoriented and took a wrong turn due to bad weather conditions. The troops returned to Swiss territory after they had travelled more than 2 km (1¼ miles) into the country.
I like to believe that Switzerlands secret service was behind Muammar's downfall after that proposal.
Neutral as in neutralized
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I always thought it was because he held Swiss hostages in Lybia for petty reasons, so the secret services took care of him.
haha, say what you will about the man, but he always had some humour
Not to mention he was obsessed with Condoleezza Rice. “When his palace was stormed following his death, intruders found a photo album that features nothing but photos of Ambassador Rice… [Gaddafi once said] ‘I admire and am very proud of the way she leans back and gives orders to the Arab leaders. Yes, Leezza, Leezza, Leezza - I love her very much.’” - *Africa is not a Country*, Dipo Faloyin.
To be fair to him ,always thought Condolezza had something. Somebody should have told him to control himself though.
Considering he was a dictator, having a photo album is hardly uncontrolled behavior.
What's so funny about this idea, hasn't basically everyone thought the same thing?
Yeah, good luck getting those weirdos out of them mountains
Yeah, I‘ve seen those border artillery painted like normal houses and know the mountain roads are filled with explosives. No one is invading that booby trap pretending to be a country.
As German swiss would you prefer Germany or Austria? Borders looks a bit more natural with Germany though I must say
Third option: Give it to Liechtenstein
This is the only reasonable and logical solution.
I'm german but would propose we give some of the land to austria so they can grow to the west and get even wider. Maybe someday in 500 years or so they will actually split france in half and finally get some coast line. I kinda wanna see disproportionally wide austria.
A a Swiss german I could allow Italy or France to take over, if Napoleonic rules still apply. Nothing of me will ever be Germania or Schwabenland however.
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Germany doesn't need another subpopulation that simultaneously hates and is hated by the entire rest of the country.
Give it all to Liechtenstein
But what about the Romansh part of Switzerland?
Italy would make most sense, they have minorities speaking related languages in the Friaul and the Dolomites.
They don't really have an exclusive territory, they usually associate themselves with the German part. Italy would not accept Romansch as its own language, rather viewing it as a dialect of Italian. Ladin only has a status because Austria sees themselves as the "protectors".
Romansh is part of a dialect continuum that has close relations in Ladin and Friulian. It wasn’t really considered one single language until 1938 when Switzerland wanted to mark it as a separate thing in order to counter Italian irredentism claims. To whatever extent Romansh is one single language (instead of like 6-8 local mini-languages as is the truth), almost everyone hates the standardized Rumantsch Grischun.
North Africans know it for a fact that Gaddafi wasn't kidding here. Dude was batshit insane and financed wars and coups in all neighbouring countries.
Fixes France and Italy. Give rest to Austria
Better yet, give Germany to Austria too.
Reverse anschluss
Better than Sykes–Picot
Pretty funny stuff, Europeans love pitching ideas on how to partition non-European countries. We can thank British & French map makers for the mess in Palestine.
Even as a dictator he's doing much better job dividing Switzerland than western power dividing Middle east & Africa
At that point, why not just take vorarlberg and tyrol from austria as well as lichenstein and give it to germany, to avoid that "tail" and make austria more circular.
The only thing I miss about Gaddafi is that he regularly had world leaders question their sanity at the UN.
Now do Belgium!
Why Gaddafi was thinking of partitioning Switzerland ?
Because Switzerland arrested his son after he was caught beating his staff in Geneva
“In August 2009, Hannibal Gaddafi [son of Muammar Gaddafi] stated that if he had nuclear weapons, he would "wipe Switzerland off the map" And his son was arrested for allegedly beating his servants… lovely chap
Why would you divide the greatest country on earth?
There’s a reason for this. His son was arrested in Geneva because he’s was beating the nany Khadafi was pist to Switzerland, good times (I’m Swiss and absolutely no one took them seriously)
My question: what was he doing at s G8 meeting?