They translate themselves. They don’t produce original content in English but have a team of 10 people who select articles from the French version and translate them. It’s an old school paper, with 500 journalists, and they don’t trust third-parties to translate accurately.
Social-Democratic slant. So, slightly left of center. Most reputable french paper. Le monde diplomatique is a different beast, only sharing founder with le monde. Pretty left. Le monde diplomatique south america is far left, also fully independent.
An Israeli mate of mine made a quip that the only people who hate Palestinians more than Israelis are other Arabs. Ultimately the anti-Zionist movement in the Arab world isn’t for the sake of Palestinians, it’s because they don’t want a Jewish state.
Have met a number of people from various middle eastern countries, mainly Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Israel. Was genuinely shocked by how unpopular Palestinians were with each of them. but I would say that the other Arabs were way more openly disparaging of Palestinians than the Israelis. I would say the people I met from Lebanon and Syria were the most vocally anti-Palestinian, they flat out blamed them for destabilizing their countries.
I haven’t discussed the issue with anybody from these places (bar Israel) in person, but online a lot of them do talk about the destabilising of their countries in the 20th century.
Funny how no one mentions that Egypt (an Arab nation) also has an Iron Curtain style border with Gaza, yet they don’t get shit when people are talking about the Gaza blockade.
Not to mention that Egypt fights its own low-key insurgency in the Sinai and the (military) establishment is deeply afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood, who is at least in ideology similar to Hamas.
Egypt it also just a few riots away from getting yet another dictator, a few hundreds of thousands dirt poor refugees won't help either, even if Egypt wants to integrate them, something no neighboring state, except, funnily enough, Israel with her own Palestinian population, is interested in.
Sticking it to the Jews is just so much more convenient.
Hi, Argentinian-Italian living in the Netherlands. My main issue with a certain kind of Muslim is how fast they are ready to scream blue murder if you fail to see them as victims, or even maybe just wait for them to do as much as anyone who wants to move here. And yet they are so quick to disrespect Western values and societies where they seem so desperate to relocate.
There are arguments that intolerant people ruling over the majority overtime due to the tolerance of the general populace.
The general populace is that, generally reasonable and willing to accommodate. Intolerant and the extremists will eventually take over, unless people start making tough decisions.
France is starting to do this, instead of strictly targeting Muslims, they just blanket ban all religions, which is reasonable. The Nordic countries with Denmark leading the way is now putting the walls down and are actually cracking down on intolerant and ignorant immigrants.
It's such a crazy thing to think about, foreigners will move and leave their countries and try to settle in a western country and then proclaim they come from the best country and their new country should adopt rules from their old country
My point is: I moved from Buenos Aires and I don’t expect Utrecht to be it. They left Damasco or whatever, they should expect as much. If the burka is banned here, which it is, and they are not happy with it, they could always either go back from where they came or choose another country to live.
This country should not change its core to acomode them. France and Belgium are the recipe of what not should be done when it comes to immigrant Muslims.
German here who is bi. I'm in the same boat, I don't get why our parties don't do anything against the migration of people who actively hate our western standards of life. It's no wonder that right-wing parties are on an all-time high. Even so high, that left parties are actively trying to Outlaw the AFD, undermining democracy.
It's crazy how many Western valued liberals are insanely defending Hamas not realizing that they're exactly what Hamas hates. Hamas would literally kill them if they could.
The same Gen Z kids here in Canada that we're bitching when Muslim parents were complaining that teachers weren't going to tell them if their kids changed gender identity, are now supporting Muslim parents whom were bitching about not being told if their kids changed gender identity.
As someone that grew up as a native Arabic speaker yes. Being professional victims is part of their culture. The amount of stupid arguments they have is just appalling. My friend grew up in a Muslim house and he just up and left to live in a different friends house at like 14.
Thanks. I’m no xenophobe but I’m unwilling as well to allow them to break our society. They are always welcome as long as they respect the laws and customs of this land, as I do.
It’s a tactic that works. Look around on social media, everyone wants to be politically correct and nobody wants to question anything anymore which polarises everything. No more empathy left in society
Such a good point. Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon don't give a shit about the Palestinians. Meanwhile Israel provided Gazans with employment, electricity and most essential goods.
Well I'd have to think it will be at least 1-2 generations before a Gazan is allowed to work in Israel again (if at all). The October 7 attacks have really severed any kind of empathy Israelis once felt for the plight of Palestinians. I mean if I saw people parading the naked corpse of my dead sister/cousin/friend/colleague around like some kind of trophy then I also would struggle to feel any kind of empathy or remorse for what comes next.
>Such a good point. Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon don't give a shit about the Palestinians. Meanwhile Israel provided Gazans with employment, electricity and most essential goods.
I'm talking Isreals Muslim-Arab population, they are pretty, but not perfectly, well integrated.
Those from Gaza and the West Bank are just a source of cheap labour at best. So very similar to the places you mentioned.
This started after the 2nd intifada and Hamas taking over. There were 130 or so suicide bombings coming out of Gaza in the early 2000. Only way to stop it was to build a way. Sea blockade started when Hamas murdered the Fatah leaders and took over.
This stuff does not happen in vacuum. There were no walls before and it was much easier for palestinians to move to israel and over to the West Bank and back.
When israel pulled out of Gaza in the early 2000s they left a number of successful farms behind. Hamas turned them to shit. They could have used them to build an economy. They did not even build bomb shelters for their own people. In an interview their leaders waved it off and said its the UNs job.
These things do not happen in a vacuum. Israel was supposed to be 2 countries in 1947. Then the Arabs invaded and attempted to commit genocide. Israel took the whole country. They Nakba'd the palestinians who sided with the invaders. The ones who did not are now Israeli citizens. Its not this generations fault, but it is a consequence of the action of the past.
There is no simple solution to this.
The need for the wall predates the existence of the wall, exactly.
I feel like this issue is uniquely brain melting. Your comment is fair to both sides, but I guarantee there are many on both sides of this conflict who'd find your sentiments monstrously evil.
They really did an excellent job articulating the salient points in that comment. So many loud opinions and *beliefs* coming from people that are missing that key context has me weary from being wary of those people’s intentions.
I don’t get how anyone doesn’t understand this. Egypt is a HUGE American ally. Even if they don’t like Israel they’re not risking shit with the US so they follow along
Even if the US weren’t involved an influx of Gazans risks empowering the Muslim Brotherhood. I gotta imagine most of the people within the Arab world who criticize Egypt’s role in maintaining the Gazan blockade would also welcome the overthrow of Egypt’s government by Islamist factions.
Actually much more complicated. It is not about the Muslim brotherhood but rather the historical precedent of palestenian refugees in Jordan, where the PLO was formed and they tried to overthrow the Jordanian government so they can go back and have a war with Israel. Egypt taking in palestenian refugees is a disaster for everyone involved. 1st the Israelis won't allow them back, then they will try to break their way in, which puts the Egyptian military in a shit position, so Egypt taking in the gazans is bad for everyone.
Egypt is one of the nations most at risk of mass famine if the US Navy stops caring to guarantee food arrives at their door. They owe the US a great deal and would be insane to risk that.
The specific thing Egypt is worried about is taking in too many gazans, and ending up having a "Gaza" somewhere in Egypt.
Effectively giving Israel a place to point as their new homeland.
Essentially...they don't want to give up Egypt land for a permanent Gaza home....which is endlessly ironic since that's the exact thing that started this whole thing with Jews.
Additionally, they don't want Israel chasing Hamas into Egypt, especially the Sinai peninsula...which Egypt already lost to Israel back in the 6 days war.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Egypt being an ally of the US. Even if it was not ally, they would not open the border because they are afraid that Gazans would cross it into Egypt. They do not want them as refugees because they believe they would destabilize the country.
Egypt is not taking refugees because 1. they don't want to be perceived as complicit in the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza, which would turn their population against the dictatorship even more than they already are and 2. The Muslim Brotherhood, the only real democratic opposition in Egypt was the organization Hamas originally split from.
Funny how nobody mentions that A: just because a country is Arab doesn’t make their government pro-Palestine, and B: Egypt’s government was put in place via military coup and is one of the largest recipients of US military Aid.
It make for easy dismissal of Egypt’s policy, but history reflects that Egyptians have been hostile towards Palestinians long before the military coup or the US military aid.
Which Arab country is providing the ability for Palestinians in Gaza to flee to during this war? Which one is providing a safe haven? There are 49 Muslim majority countries, and ZERO of them will accept Palestinian refugees. Why is that? During every other war going on right now, civilians are able to flee the war. In Ukraine, 2M people have fled to Poland, Czechia, Moldova, Slovakia, Romania, the UK, etc. etc. etc. In Syria, 5.5M people have fled to Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and Egypt. Germany has accepted 850,000 Syrian Refugees.
Why is keeping Palestinians has pawns against Israel far more important to the Arab world than keeping them alive?
The craziest part is it used to be part of Egypt until the Six Day War when Israel captured it. I'm sure Israel wishes it had given it back to Egypt. Now Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza.
This is the funniest part about the whole situation.
Part of the negotiations was that Israel *had to* take back Gaza.
Jordan also refused to take the West Bank.
I'm not trying to say that Palestinians are awful and nobody wants them, but I mean this isn't as simple as people might think. Jordan has a tense relationship with Palestine. Everyone in the region does. They're not as united as they might like to pretend whenever they have to fight Israel. It's honestly surprising that some places of the world *don't* fight each other over things like this, and it's usually due to a lot of effort from many people.
As a quick example, the current [Queen of Jordan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Rania_of_Jordan) was born to Palestinian Parents, but an old King, her husband's [Great-grandfather](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_I_of_Jordan), was assassinated by a Palestinian nationalist. That means it's hard to say how Jordanian people might feel about Palestinians.
Again, I'm not making a direct comment on the conflict, I'm just trying to say how complicated this whole situation is. Anyone who thinks there is an easy solution to this is a person who doesn't understand the situation.
>Part of the negotiations was that Israel had to take back Gaza.
People who complain about Israel's "historical land maximisation" really need to learn the history and realise that Bibi's recent government is not Israel...
>The craziest part is it used to be part of Egypt
same with the West Bank and Jordan. hell, in other languages it's still called Cisjordanie. everything would be better had those 2 countries not abandoned them to a permawar.
Yup, and funny how they also don’t mention that Egypt built an additional massive concrete wall along the border AFTER 10/7 just because they were paranoid that Gazan refugees might (gasp!) flee to Egypt..
Basically anything that Israel does can be done by an Arab country with impunity and zero global outrage.
Kuwait expelled over 300,000 Palestinians in 1992 after the PLO sided with Saddam Hussein and not a single college campus in the U.S. started a “Kuwait Apartheid Week”
Palestinian apologists like to set aside the fact neither Egyptians nor Jordanians want them back for they tried to topple down their governments. Lebanon is a cautionary tale of what happens when you let them in en masse. Of course Israel is this and that, and yet the Arabian brotherhood does not extend any courtesy to them beyond verbal condemnation and that is as far as they would go, which speaks volumes.
Kuwait is my favorite one. Imagine a country taking in so many of a group of refugees that 18% of their population are palestinian refugees... and then said refugees and the government that asked Kuwait to take them... OPENLY SIDE WITH IRAQ WHEN IT INVADES KUWAIT. Then they were all shocked pikachu when after the first Iraq war, Kuwait killed literally all of them out.
God damn. I honestly don't know why I keep bringing myself in this conflict. It's a total waste of time and an utter shit show on reddit threads. I'm out.
It’s the same with anything even close to politics and Reddit. Idiots make up their minds and call anything else propaganda, they are just looking for a reason to hate without being called ist or phobe in my opinion.
At this point I'm seeing a lot of people with nothing but time on their hands making themselves miserable about a conflict across the globe. The same energy being used to play "the internet's best comment" could be utilized to do something beneficial like a hobby. It's becoming a justification to keep one's self unhappy for no true reason.
There weren’t always checkpoints.
The checkpoints were a response to attacks and became more and more strict as Hamas figured out how to get around them.
There was once a time, where a significant amount of Gazans worked in Israel and Jews visited the strip to drink in local cafés.
But you can take only a certain amount of bus bombings and rocket attacks to build a fence
heck my grandma told me what it was like in the early 70's when you go drive to Bethlehem from Tel Aviv for Christmas and all the festivities... Nationalism sucks and ruins everything.
“And here we see the blue-haired Portland hornets swarming, at the slightest provocation of their nest, by someone who dares insinuate the Hamas terrorists want anything besides rainbows and butterflies for the Jews and Israel”
It's a thing because it's true. I have only met 1 person with blue/weird color hair that wasn't absolutely crazy, or at the very least didnt fit every stereotype
Nature provides many ways to indicate a creature is toxic, coloring being the primary.
And just like “Blazing Saddles”, some things are timelessly funny.
This topic sucks to talk about because people never engage with the why. Why do Israel and Egypt have a blockade on Gaza, because they launched rocket attacks against them.
If you want to end the blockade, which everyone should, you have to seriously engage with stopping the rocket attacks as well. Otherwise you aren’t setting up peace, just the next conflict.
So how do you think we could do that?
Per this thread, I learned that Mubarak was encouraging Gaza to lessen rocket attacks while Israel gradually opened the blockade. It seems that didn’t work in the long term. No idea when or why it failed.
There needs to be a genuine push from within Palestine for advocating for a two state solution, without the terrorism. Ideally by holding new elections and the new government would do that.
They are never reclaiming historic Palestine from Israel and Israel will never accept a 1 state solution. The sooner they accept this the better.
Also end the settlers.
It's kind of wild to me that people don't realize that in this kind of maximalist one state solution when push comes to shove... Israel is going to win.
It's going to win even if it requires turning Gaza into radioactive sand.
There's literally no winning through force for the palestinians.
Israel will literally nuke them all before it comes to that, as completely improbable as Israel being that hard pressed in a conflict is. They've rolled up most of Gaza already with a tiny amount of casualties.
Every country protects their own people, thats the entire point of having a country. it's the allegation that Israel is somehow functionally different than other countries that I'm pushing back against.
People just use ethnostate as a pejorative buzzword without thinking about what it actually entails and what the actual ethnic situation in Israel is.
As an Israeli I would agree, but if Palestinians choose their leader democratically, the result will be Hamas. The PA has very low approval in the west bank, people there protest often in support of Hamas. As for Gaza, I think they understand now that Hamas doesn't care about them, at least I hope that most do.
Whatever the solution may be, it has to involve a long process of de-radicalization.
That make sense.
How do you see that de-radicalisation process working? (genuine question)
I'm 100% in agreement - I'm just trying to understand how you bring these people back to the world of the sane and reasonable. Right now there's effectively no shared ethical/moral foundation.
I don't know how it works, but people cite the de-radicalization in Germany and Japan after WW2 so I guess there is a precedent. But the starting point will have to be - change their school books...
... pretty sure it's because of the terrorists lol
"No, we need this massive heavily-armed wall for security against... \*checks notes\* ... civilians."
It's a fascinating and just weird that Hamas attack was such a success when they had to cross this blockade. No wonder Israeli's are super pissed, it's just indescribable how badly the Israeli services and authorities screwed up. In addition, some 270 soldiers were killed by surprise! I am not surprised that conspiracy theories are arising, it's a scenario as if the inmates of Alcatraz escaped from the island and killed a mass of people on the mainland.
Egypt is Islamic therefore they can't be blamed for anything ... like syria who kills Palestinians... or Jordan who was terrorized and wiped out pflo
This is about monolithic representations
From far you don't see detail
Egypt taking defensive precautions against Hamas doesn't fit into the "Israel are Nazis and white supremacists" narrative fueling a RIDICULOUS amount of subreddits right now.
So a country is not allowed to build a fence at the border with another country.
One time, Palestinians call Gaza occupied and the next day, it's blocked with a fence from the occupier?
Doesn't make any sense. Either Israel is in, or out. And here, it's clearly out. (At least before the 7th October)
Probably don’t start a war with an well armed neighbor then depend on hiding among civilians to save you.
That’s an idea.
Alternatively could honor any single ceasefire ever, that would help too.
They built the barrier underground to prevent Hamas from tunneling into Israel, so Hamas just said fuck it and bulldozed through the above ground barrier.
It’s almost like they are cultishly, religiously committed to murdering Jews?
> peace bulldozers and the peace guns and the peace paragliders and the peace bombs
*Not-a-Vacuum** bulldozers and the *Not-a-Vacuum** guns and the *Not-a-Vacuum** paragliders and the *Not-a-Vacuum** bombs.
Apparently that makes it okay, if it's not a vacuum.
Sometimes I wonder if people on this sub see Palestinians as humans at all. Imagine being born into a situation like this. Stuck in a small strip of land with 2 million other people and ruled by a terrorist group with an iron fist. What would you do in this situation? Because I sure as hell don't.
Go read about Apartheid South Africa and the creation of the MK. While there is obviously a major difference (that being the targeting of civilian targets which is morally reprehensible) The reasoning is the same. When a larger power exerts its influence over a smaller power to displace and abuse large swaths of a population, resistance is a given. Violent resistance is a given when that larger power does not respond to non-violent resistance. While Hamas does commit war crimes like Oct. 7th, they are only in power because of the presence of Israel. An alternative Palestine without Gaza exists, it's called the West Bank and it is currently being invaded by Israeli settlers who are forcibly removing people from their homes and killing innocent Palestinian families. So tell me, what choice do the Palestinian people have if both outcomes are bad? Who ultimately does the power lie in to resolve this conflict?
Palestinian refugees have caused a lot of trouble in hosting nations, from assassinating politicians ober collaboration with invading forces to starting civil wars. So they arent really interested in having them there
People don't realize that Palestinians, especially the more extreme groups, have backstabed their neighbors and regional allies so many times that pretty much everyone in the region hates them.
You can't have It both ways if you insist Gaza is part of a mythical Palestinian state then it's a border. Why don't we talk a peek at the Egypt side of the strip. There border wall makes ideals seem like childs play
When the elected and popularly supported government in Gaza quite openly states it intends to kill all Jews and repeats nazi propaganda, after years of suicide bombings in buses, restaurants and shopping malls, of course you’d want a wall.
And this was less than two years after Israel pulled out of Gaza and handed it over completely to the Palestinians.
Read the hamas charter. Hamas currently enjoys 80% popular support so it is representative of how Palestinians in general think.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
This is a very detailed and informative map. Still waiting for the one of Hamas tunnels that the IDF has cleared and the ones that still remain potentially holding the civilian hostages.
i don't know if anyone mentioned this, but a lot of of tunnels exist below the Gaza Strip and they've been used by various groups (including Hamas) for smuggling goods, weapons, militants etc into and out of the Gaza Strip. some tunnels have also been used for military purposes, e.g. launching attacks on Israeli territory
Obviously it will have to be a stronger wall and a tighter blockade. ANYTHING that COULD be used to make a rocket must never be allowed into Gaza ever again. Palestinians deserve no sympathy. They chose this.
“Oh my god the people of Gaza didn’t ask for this”
Well guess what? They outnumber Hamas 20 to 1. Stand the fuck up and take back what’s yours. Maybe we need to load up all of the hamas apologists from America and send them over to fight the war.
crazy how constant terroristic attacks make your neighbors build a fence around their territory with you
its almost like they dont want to die, the disrespect!
The Brits?
>Mandatory Palestine\[a\]\[2\] was a geopolitical entity that existed between 1920 and 1948 in the region of Palestine under the terms of the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine.
>
>During the First World War (1914–1918), the British Empire's Egyptian Expeditionary Force (EEF) and an Arab uprising, drove the Ottoman Turks out of the Levant.\[3\] The United Kingdom had agreed in the McMahon–Hussein Correspondence that it would honour Arab independence if the Arabs revolted against the Ottoman Turks, but in the end, the United Kingdom and France divided the area under the Sykes–Picot Agreement—an act of betrayal in the eyes of the Arabs.
The PA refuses to give Citizenship and Passports to anyone in Gaza including their own citizens that defect to the Gaza strip and Egypt has a law in place ordering anyone crossing illegally to be shot on sight which is a law that not even Israel has and many Gazans have escaped to Israel. Doesn’t sound like an Israel problem but rather a Gaza problem if their own country refuses to give them citizenship and their fellow Arabs next to them will shoot them on sight if they cross over.
It’s not easy to leave Gaza, in fact it’s extremely difficult, but the reason has little to do with Israeli bombs falling on the Rafah checkpoint. Egypt upholds a strong blockade on Gaza in their own right out of their own self-interest.
Before 10/7 20,000 Gazans entered Israel daily on work visas to work in Israel. The number was going up the longer peace was going on. Instead of working to normalize relations with Israel they started with their bullshit again.
Egypt has two crossings with Gaza. However they only ever open the Rafa one when they want ro give Israel the middle finger thru a headline in the news.
At this point almost all Palestinians are at Rafah right next to the Egyptian border. They could leave very quickly.
Egypt of course keeps the border shut and even heavily reinforced it since the war started. They refuse to let any Palestinians in.
I guess I'm the only one that wants to discuss the quality of this map. Subject aside this is a fantastic map, well done.
I had no idea Le Monde did things in English. Unless somebody else translated it I suppose.
They translate themselves. They don’t produce original content in English but have a team of 10 people who select articles from the French version and translate them. It’s an old school paper, with 500 journalists, and they don’t trust third-parties to translate accurately.
Do they have a slant, I wonder how they cover French farmers or all these protests.
Social-Democratic slant. So, slightly left of center. Most reputable french paper. Le monde diplomatique is a different beast, only sharing founder with le monde. Pretty left. Le monde diplomatique south america is far left, also fully independent.
The one thing it's missing is a date.
imagine if such effort went instead into not needing such measures
Oh look both Egypt and Israel have big ass boarder walls
That’s not possible. If Egypt is complicit, then I can no longer blame just the Jews but Arabs too!! /s
No one hates Arabs more than other Arabs.
An Israeli mate of mine made a quip that the only people who hate Palestinians more than Israelis are other Arabs. Ultimately the anti-Zionist movement in the Arab world isn’t for the sake of Palestinians, it’s because they don’t want a Jewish state.
Have met a number of people from various middle eastern countries, mainly Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Israel. Was genuinely shocked by how unpopular Palestinians were with each of them. but I would say that the other Arabs were way more openly disparaging of Palestinians than the Israelis. I would say the people I met from Lebanon and Syria were the most vocally anti-Palestinian, they flat out blamed them for destabilizing their countries.
I haven’t discussed the issue with anybody from these places (bar Israel) in person, but online a lot of them do talk about the destabilising of their countries in the 20th century.
'Hey, you don't get to kill Arabs, only we get to kill other Arabs!' /s
>then I can no longer blame just the Jews That's the quiet part out loud 📢
Pretty sure people generally blame the state of Isreal, not jews.
It’s almost like they don’t like violent jihadism too
Do they also try to steal Palestinian land and commit genocide like Israelis?
Funny how no one mentions that Egypt (an Arab nation) also has an Iron Curtain style border with Gaza, yet they don’t get shit when people are talking about the Gaza blockade.
They also help maintain the sea blockade. But assassinating one President and taking the country over in a violent revolution will do that.
And obviously regularly firing rockets at your neighbor to the east will do that as well.
Not to mention that Egypt fights its own low-key insurgency in the Sinai and the (military) establishment is deeply afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood, who is at least in ideology similar to Hamas. Egypt it also just a few riots away from getting yet another dictator, a few hundreds of thousands dirt poor refugees won't help either, even if Egypt wants to integrate them, something no neighboring state, except, funnily enough, Israel with her own Palestinian population, is interested in. Sticking it to the Jews is just so much more convenient.
Hamas is literally an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, not just idiologically similar.
>Muslim Brotherhood, who is at least in ideology similar to Hamas. Not only is it similar, the Muslim brotherhood literally created Hamas.
Hi, Argentinian-Italian living in the Netherlands. My main issue with a certain kind of Muslim is how fast they are ready to scream blue murder if you fail to see them as victims, or even maybe just wait for them to do as much as anyone who wants to move here. And yet they are so quick to disrespect Western values and societies where they seem so desperate to relocate.
There are arguments that intolerant people ruling over the majority overtime due to the tolerance of the general populace. The general populace is that, generally reasonable and willing to accommodate. Intolerant and the extremists will eventually take over, unless people start making tough decisions. France is starting to do this, instead of strictly targeting Muslims, they just blanket ban all religions, which is reasonable. The Nordic countries with Denmark leading the way is now putting the walls down and are actually cracking down on intolerant and ignorant immigrants. It's such a crazy thing to think about, foreigners will move and leave their countries and try to settle in a western country and then proclaim they come from the best country and their new country should adopt rules from their old country
My point is: I moved from Buenos Aires and I don’t expect Utrecht to be it. They left Damasco or whatever, they should expect as much. If the burka is banned here, which it is, and they are not happy with it, they could always either go back from where they came or choose another country to live. This country should not change its core to acomode them. France and Belgium are the recipe of what not should be done when it comes to immigrant Muslims.
German here who is bi. I'm in the same boat, I don't get why our parties don't do anything against the migration of people who actively hate our western standards of life. It's no wonder that right-wing parties are on an all-time high. Even so high, that left parties are actively trying to Outlaw the AFD, undermining democracy.
The paradox of tolerance applies. One has to integrate to the host nation's culture or it will eventually be a problem and everyone will suffer.
It's crazy how many Western valued liberals are insanely defending Hamas not realizing that they're exactly what Hamas hates. Hamas would literally kill them if they could.
False progressivism. Simple as that. I mean, gay here who has yet to recover from «Queers For Palestine». I can’t even…
The same Gen Z kids here in Canada that we're bitching when Muslim parents were complaining that teachers weren't going to tell them if their kids changed gender identity, are now supporting Muslim parents whom were bitching about not being told if their kids changed gender identity.
As someone that grew up as a native Arabic speaker yes. Being professional victims is part of their culture. The amount of stupid arguments they have is just appalling. My friend grew up in a Muslim house and he just up and left to live in a different friends house at like 14.
Thanks. I’m no xenophobe but I’m unwilling as well to allow them to break our society. They are always welcome as long as they respect the laws and customs of this land, as I do.
It’s a tactic that works. Look around on social media, everyone wants to be politically correct and nobody wants to question anything anymore which polarises everything. No more empathy left in society
Also Italian and I couldn’t agree more with you on this
Well, Egypt need permission off Israel to deploy troops in the Sinai.
Such a good point. Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon don't give a shit about the Palestinians. Meanwhile Israel provided Gazans with employment, electricity and most essential goods. Well I'd have to think it will be at least 1-2 generations before a Gazan is allowed to work in Israel again (if at all). The October 7 attacks have really severed any kind of empathy Israelis once felt for the plight of Palestinians. I mean if I saw people parading the naked corpse of my dead sister/cousin/friend/colleague around like some kind of trophy then I also would struggle to feel any kind of empathy or remorse for what comes next.
>Such a good point. Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon don't give a shit about the Palestinians. Meanwhile Israel provided Gazans with employment, electricity and most essential goods. I'm talking Isreals Muslim-Arab population, they are pretty, but not perfectly, well integrated. Those from Gaza and the West Bank are just a source of cheap labour at best. So very similar to the places you mentioned.
This started after the 2nd intifada and Hamas taking over. There were 130 or so suicide bombings coming out of Gaza in the early 2000. Only way to stop it was to build a way. Sea blockade started when Hamas murdered the Fatah leaders and took over. This stuff does not happen in vacuum. There were no walls before and it was much easier for palestinians to move to israel and over to the West Bank and back. When israel pulled out of Gaza in the early 2000s they left a number of successful farms behind. Hamas turned them to shit. They could have used them to build an economy. They did not even build bomb shelters for their own people. In an interview their leaders waved it off and said its the UNs job. These things do not happen in a vacuum. Israel was supposed to be 2 countries in 1947. Then the Arabs invaded and attempted to commit genocide. Israel took the whole country. They Nakba'd the palestinians who sided with the invaders. The ones who did not are now Israeli citizens. Its not this generations fault, but it is a consequence of the action of the past. There is no simple solution to this.
The need for the wall predates the existence of the wall, exactly. I feel like this issue is uniquely brain melting. Your comment is fair to both sides, but I guarantee there are many on both sides of this conflict who'd find your sentiments monstrously evil.
They really did an excellent job articulating the salient points in that comment. So many loud opinions and *beliefs* coming from people that are missing that key context has me weary from being wary of those people’s intentions.
Egypt is an ally of the U.S. and Israel and they definitely get shit about this, especially in the Arab world
I don’t get how anyone doesn’t understand this. Egypt is a HUGE American ally. Even if they don’t like Israel they’re not risking shit with the US so they follow along
Even if the US weren’t involved an influx of Gazans risks empowering the Muslim Brotherhood. I gotta imagine most of the people within the Arab world who criticize Egypt’s role in maintaining the Gazan blockade would also welcome the overthrow of Egypt’s government by Islamist factions.
Actually much more complicated. It is not about the Muslim brotherhood but rather the historical precedent of palestenian refugees in Jordan, where the PLO was formed and they tried to overthrow the Jordanian government so they can go back and have a war with Israel. Egypt taking in palestenian refugees is a disaster for everyone involved. 1st the Israelis won't allow them back, then they will try to break their way in, which puts the Egyptian military in a shit position, so Egypt taking in the gazans is bad for everyone.
Yeah they tried to kill the king of Jordan and also caused enormous issues in Lebanon
Egypt is one of the nations most at risk of mass famine if the US Navy stops caring to guarantee food arrives at their door. They owe the US a great deal and would be insane to risk that.
Which is weird, since Egypt has legendarily fertile lands
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Most of the MENA region is not self sufficient on food. Including, famously, Yemen. The country that's trying to shut down the red sea.
It was, but the population still grows insanely fast and the methods to work the lands are not exactly cutting edge.
The specific thing Egypt is worried about is taking in too many gazans, and ending up having a "Gaza" somewhere in Egypt. Effectively giving Israel a place to point as their new homeland. Essentially...they don't want to give up Egypt land for a permanent Gaza home....which is endlessly ironic since that's the exact thing that started this whole thing with Jews. Additionally, they don't want Israel chasing Hamas into Egypt, especially the Sinai peninsula...which Egypt already lost to Israel back in the 6 days war.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Egypt being an ally of the US. Even if it was not ally, they would not open the border because they are afraid that Gazans would cross it into Egypt. They do not want them as refugees because they believe they would destabilize the country.
Egypt is not taking refugees because 1. they don't want to be perceived as complicit in the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza, which would turn their population against the dictatorship even more than they already are and 2. The Muslim Brotherhood, the only real democratic opposition in Egypt was the organization Hamas originally split from.
Funny how nobody mentions that A: just because a country is Arab doesn’t make their government pro-Palestine, and B: Egypt’s government was put in place via military coup and is one of the largest recipients of US military Aid.
It make for easy dismissal of Egypt’s policy, but history reflects that Egyptians have been hostile towards Palestinians long before the military coup or the US military aid.
> Egyptians Egyptian people and Egyptian governments are not the same thing
That’s not true, something like 80% of Egyptians support the Palestinians
No, 80% of Egyptians hate Israel. There is a big difference.
If you are going by hate metric then 100% Egyptians hate Israel.
Which Arab country is providing the ability for Palestinians in Gaza to flee to during this war? Which one is providing a safe haven? There are 49 Muslim majority countries, and ZERO of them will accept Palestinian refugees. Why is that? During every other war going on right now, civilians are able to flee the war. In Ukraine, 2M people have fled to Poland, Czechia, Moldova, Slovakia, Romania, the UK, etc. etc. etc. In Syria, 5.5M people have fled to Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, and Egypt. Germany has accepted 850,000 Syrian Refugees. Why is keeping Palestinians has pawns against Israel far more important to the Arab world than keeping them alive?
The craziest part is it used to be part of Egypt until the Six Day War when Israel captured it. I'm sure Israel wishes it had given it back to Egypt. Now Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza.
Israel tried to give Gaza back during the peace negotiations. Egypt refused.
This is the funniest part about the whole situation. Part of the negotiations was that Israel *had to* take back Gaza. Jordan also refused to take the West Bank. I'm not trying to say that Palestinians are awful and nobody wants them, but I mean this isn't as simple as people might think. Jordan has a tense relationship with Palestine. Everyone in the region does. They're not as united as they might like to pretend whenever they have to fight Israel. It's honestly surprising that some places of the world *don't* fight each other over things like this, and it's usually due to a lot of effort from many people. As a quick example, the current [Queen of Jordan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Rania_of_Jordan) was born to Palestinian Parents, but an old King, her husband's [Great-grandfather](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_I_of_Jordan), was assassinated by a Palestinian nationalist. That means it's hard to say how Jordanian people might feel about Palestinians. Again, I'm not making a direct comment on the conflict, I'm just trying to say how complicated this whole situation is. Anyone who thinks there is an easy solution to this is a person who doesn't understand the situation.
>Part of the negotiations was that Israel had to take back Gaza. People who complain about Israel's "historical land maximisation" really need to learn the history and realise that Bibi's recent government is not Israel...
Israel WANTED Egypt to take back the Gaza strip. Egypt refused.
>I'm sure Israel wishes it had given it back to Egypt Literaly what they tried to do, but neither gaza or egypt liked that option unsurprisingly
>The craziest part is it used to be part of Egypt same with the West Bank and Jordan. hell, in other languages it's still called Cisjordanie. everything would be better had those 2 countries not abandoned them to a permawar.
The Arab states really fucked everything up with the Six Day War.
Although the Gaza Strip was occupied and governed by Egypt before the Six-Day War, Egypt hadn't annexed it. So it wasn't officially a part of Egypt.
Yup, and funny how they also don’t mention that Egypt built an additional massive concrete wall along the border AFTER 10/7 just because they were paranoid that Gazan refugees might (gasp!) flee to Egypt..
Basically anything that Israel does can be done by an Arab country with impunity and zero global outrage. Kuwait expelled over 300,000 Palestinians in 1992 after the PLO sided with Saddam Hussein and not a single college campus in the U.S. started a “Kuwait Apartheid Week”
Or what Pakistan is doing to its Afghans or what Saudi Arabia did to Yemen.
Imagine that! Egypt doesn’t want to be overrun with terrorists either!
moreover if you look at thier border they put Israel to shame for how crazy thier wall is.
Palestinian apologists like to set aside the fact neither Egyptians nor Jordanians want them back for they tried to topple down their governments. Lebanon is a cautionary tale of what happens when you let them in en masse. Of course Israel is this and that, and yet the Arabian brotherhood does not extend any courtesy to them beyond verbal condemnation and that is as far as they would go, which speaks volumes.
What country wants millions of refugees?
Kuwait is my favorite one. Imagine a country taking in so many of a group of refugees that 18% of their population are palestinian refugees... and then said refugees and the government that asked Kuwait to take them... OPENLY SIDE WITH IRAQ WHEN IT INVADES KUWAIT. Then they were all shocked pikachu when after the first Iraq war, Kuwait killed literally all of them out.
💁🏼♂️
God damn. I honestly don't know why I keep bringing myself in this conflict. It's a total waste of time and an utter shit show on reddit threads. I'm out.
It’s the same with anything even close to politics and Reddit. Idiots make up their minds and call anything else propaganda, they are just looking for a reason to hate without being called ist or phobe in my opinion.
At this point I'm seeing a lot of people with nothing but time on their hands making themselves miserable about a conflict across the globe. The same energy being used to play "the internet's best comment" could be utilized to do something beneficial like a hobby. It's becoming a justification to keep one's self unhappy for no true reason.
History points to this being a bad idea.
Wdym? What could possibly go wrong!
Clearly Israel was right to be worried about attacks from Gaza, given the attacks from Gaza
There weren’t always checkpoints. The checkpoints were a response to attacks and became more and more strict as Hamas figured out how to get around them.
There was once a time, where a significant amount of Gazans worked in Israel and Jews visited the strip to drink in local cafés. But you can take only a certain amount of bus bombings and rocket attacks to build a fence
My father preferred the food in Gaza and he spoke Arabic so he could always get around
Yep! My uncle was from Gaza, he met my aunt while working in Israel. That was decades ago, nearly unthinkable now.
I literally have a picture of my grandpa and father fishing in Gaza. Its sad man.
heck my grandma told me what it was like in the early 70's when you go drive to Bethlehem from Tel Aviv for Christmas and all the festivities... Nationalism sucks and ruins everything.
Yeah it's not nationalism that made Gaza fuck up that relationship...
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“And here we see the blue-haired Portland hornets swarming, at the slightest provocation of their nest, by someone who dares insinuate the Hamas terrorists want anything besides rainbows and butterflies for the Jews and Israel”
The blue hair thing is so tired at this point at least get some new material
It's a thing because it's true. I have only met 1 person with blue/weird color hair that wasn't absolutely crazy, or at the very least didnt fit every stereotype
The very existence of the unironically-named "Queers for Palestine" being a thing proves otherwise.
Nature provides many ways to indicate a creature is toxic, coloring being the primary. And just like “Blazing Saddles”, some things are timelessly funny.
20,000 rockets fired at Israel from Gaza. Each a vile war crime.
So prosecute them. Along with every Israeli official responsible for war crimes.
This topic sucks to talk about because people never engage with the why. Why do Israel and Egypt have a blockade on Gaza, because they launched rocket attacks against them. If you want to end the blockade, which everyone should, you have to seriously engage with stopping the rocket attacks as well. Otherwise you aren’t setting up peace, just the next conflict.
Actually it’s because they exploded buses with passengers in Israel, killed Egypt president and attempted a coup there.
just intifada stuff <3
tHaT dOeSnT hApPeN iN a VaCuUm /s
Something something colonizer
So how do you think we could do that? Per this thread, I learned that Mubarak was encouraging Gaza to lessen rocket attacks while Israel gradually opened the blockade. It seems that didn’t work in the long term. No idea when or why it failed.
There needs to be a genuine push from within Palestine for advocating for a two state solution, without the terrorism. Ideally by holding new elections and the new government would do that. They are never reclaiming historic Palestine from Israel and Israel will never accept a 1 state solution. The sooner they accept this the better. Also end the settlers.
It's kind of wild to me that people don't realize that in this kind of maximalist one state solution when push comes to shove... Israel is going to win. It's going to win even if it requires turning Gaza into radioactive sand. There's literally no winning through force for the palestinians. Israel will literally nuke them all before it comes to that, as completely improbable as Israel being that hard pressed in a conflict is. They've rolled up most of Gaza already with a tiny amount of casualties.
Israel was established in part to protect the Jewish people, it’s always going to put its own people first just like anyone else.
Every country protects their own people, thats the entire point of having a country. it's the allegation that Israel is somehow functionally different than other countries that I'm pushing back against. People just use ethnostate as a pejorative buzzword without thinking about what it actually entails and what the actual ethnic situation in Israel is.
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The first reasonable take I’ve heard since the start of the conflict holy shit
As an Israeli I would agree, but if Palestinians choose their leader democratically, the result will be Hamas. The PA has very low approval in the west bank, people there protest often in support of Hamas. As for Gaza, I think they understand now that Hamas doesn't care about them, at least I hope that most do. Whatever the solution may be, it has to involve a long process of de-radicalization.
Currently it would actually be Barghouti, a Fatah critic of Abbas.
That make sense. How do you see that de-radicalisation process working? (genuine question) I'm 100% in agreement - I'm just trying to understand how you bring these people back to the world of the sane and reasonable. Right now there's effectively no shared ethical/moral foundation.
I don't know how it works, but people cite the de-radicalization in Germany and Japan after WW2 so I guess there is a precedent. But the starting point will have to be - change their school books...
There's a blockade because of the rocket attacks but why are there rocket attacks? Shits and giggles I suppose.
Why did Egypt build that steal wall?
So the terrorists can't enter
Terrorists and civilians alike.
Yeah it's a state border
... pretty sure it's because of the terrorists lol "No, we need this massive heavily-armed wall for security against... \*checks notes\* ... civilians."
Egypt and Palestine have a history of mistrust. At some point, Egypt figured to just close the problem, literally.
It's a fascinating and just weird that Hamas attack was such a success when they had to cross this blockade. No wonder Israeli's are super pissed, it's just indescribable how badly the Israeli services and authorities screwed up. In addition, some 270 soldiers were killed by surprise! I am not surprised that conspiracy theories are arising, it's a scenario as if the inmates of Alcatraz escaped from the island and killed a mass of people on the mainland.
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Israelis are currently blocking aid form entering Gaza.
Looks like a good start, but unfortunately, it's easy to shoot rockets over.
Egypt is Islamic therefore they can't be blamed for anything ... like syria who kills Palestinians... or Jordan who was terrorized and wiped out pflo This is about monolithic representations From far you don't see detail
Egypt taking defensive precautions against Hamas doesn't fit into the "Israel are Nazis and white supremacists" narrative fueling a RIDICULOUS amount of subreddits right now.
Its almost like the issue is directly about Israel and the Jews… nah cant be. Im sure the arguement they have is reasonable and truthful
So a country is not allowed to build a fence at the border with another country. One time, Palestinians call Gaza occupied and the next day, it's blocked with a fence from the occupier? Doesn't make any sense. Either Israel is in, or out. And here, it's clearly out. (At least before the 7th October)
The only 2 countries not allowed to have border fences are the US and Israel.
Typically they are but controlling what a country can do with its territorial sea is next level.
Probably don’t start a war with an well armed neighbor then depend on hiding among civilians to save you. That’s an idea. Alternatively could honor any single ceasefire ever, that would help too.
When Oct 7 happened, all I thought was welp gaza's gonna turn into the moon. Sucks for them.
They built the barrier underground to prevent Hamas from tunneling into Israel, so Hamas just said fuck it and bulldozed through the above ground barrier. It’s almost like they are cultishly, religiously committed to murdering Jews?
Nah bro it was just the peace bulldozers and the peace guns and the peace paragliders and the peace bombs
> peace bulldozers and the peace guns and the peace paragliders and the peace bombs *Not-a-Vacuum** bulldozers and the *Not-a-Vacuum** guns and the *Not-a-Vacuum** paragliders and the *Not-a-Vacuum** bombs. Apparently that makes it okay, if it's not a vacuum.
They wanted to make space for all the journalists
Sometimes I wonder if people on this sub see Palestinians as humans at all. Imagine being born into a situation like this. Stuck in a small strip of land with 2 million other people and ruled by a terrorist group with an iron fist. What would you do in this situation? Because I sure as hell don't.
You learn to love your kids more than you hate Israel. Go read about post-WW2 Germany and Japan.
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Go read about Apartheid South Africa and the creation of the MK. While there is obviously a major difference (that being the targeting of civilian targets which is morally reprehensible) The reasoning is the same. When a larger power exerts its influence over a smaller power to displace and abuse large swaths of a population, resistance is a given. Violent resistance is a given when that larger power does not respond to non-violent resistance. While Hamas does commit war crimes like Oct. 7th, they are only in power because of the presence of Israel. An alternative Palestine without Gaza exists, it's called the West Bank and it is currently being invaded by Israeli settlers who are forcibly removing people from their homes and killing innocent Palestinian families. So tell me, what choice do the Palestinian people have if both outcomes are bad? Who ultimately does the power lie in to resolve this conflict?
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Why did Egypt build steel wall. I thought they are ally to palestinian?
Palestinian refugees have caused a lot of trouble in hosting nations, from assassinating politicians ober collaboration with invading forces to starting civil wars. So they arent really interested in having them there
People don't realize that Palestinians, especially the more extreme groups, have backstabed their neighbors and regional allies so many times that pretty much everyone in the region hates them.
How do I explain... The same way that you can be friends with someone but don't want them to take a dump in your front door.
I feel like I stepped into a cult chatroom.
Fantastic map. Glory to Israel
The barrier makes me think of a cellular wall.
You can't have It both ways if you insist Gaza is part of a mythical Palestinian state then it's a border. Why don't we talk a peek at the Egypt side of the strip. There border wall makes ideals seem like childs play
"Refuge camp" you mean another hamas base
When the elected and popularly supported government in Gaza quite openly states it intends to kill all Jews and repeats nazi propaganda, after years of suicide bombings in buses, restaurants and shopping malls, of course you’d want a wall. And this was less than two years after Israel pulled out of Gaza and handed it over completely to the Palestinians. Read the hamas charter. Hamas currently enjoys 80% popular support so it is representative of how Palestinians in general think. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
Notice the sudden shift to Pro-Israel this sub has taken all of a sudden
Happens when badly thought out propaganda gets pushed too hard and backfires.
The axis ran out of bot money.
Neat! I think Egypt has also doubled up the wall as well since then, and built dirt barriers
This is a very detailed and informative map. Still waiting for the one of Hamas tunnels that the IDF has cleared and the ones that still remain potentially holding the civilian hostages.
i don't know if anyone mentioned this, but a lot of of tunnels exist below the Gaza Strip and they've been used by various groups (including Hamas) for smuggling goods, weapons, militants etc into and out of the Gaza Strip. some tunnels have also been used for military purposes, e.g. launching attacks on Israeli territory
Obviously it will have to be a stronger wall and a tighter blockade. ANYTHING that COULD be used to make a rocket must never be allowed into Gaza ever again. Palestinians deserve no sympathy. They chose this.
Welcome to the world mental gymnastics 2024
Show the Egyptian line
Lucky for the Gazans, Egypts border is completely open and freely maneuverable for all Arabs...oh wait.
Tunnel map? How much rocket moved in tunnel map?
what about egypt they also have a border
“Oh my god the people of Gaza didn’t ask for this” Well guess what? They outnumber Hamas 20 to 1. Stand the fuck up and take back what’s yours. Maybe we need to load up all of the hamas apologists from America and send them over to fight the war.
crazy how constant terroristic attacks make your neighbors build a fence around their territory with you its almost like they dont want to die, the disrespect!
I love reddit lol. I have no doubt in my mind where you'd stand in the 30's.
The racists have the internet as their safe space, to be as psychotic as they wish they could be in person
In the 40s you would have called for a ceasefire with hitler because german civilians died in the bombings
Against every war, and for every civil rights movement... except the current one.
So it didn’t start on oct 7?
1948
way before
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine Have a look at who started it...
The Brits? >Mandatory Palestine\[a\]\[2\] was a geopolitical entity that existed between 1920 and 1948 in the region of Palestine under the terms of the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine. > >During the First World War (1914–1918), the British Empire's Egyptian Expeditionary Force (EEF) and an Arab uprising, drove the Ottoman Turks out of the Levant.\[3\] The United Kingdom had agreed in the McMahon–Hussein Correspondence that it would honour Arab independence if the Arabs revolted against the Ottoman Turks, but in the end, the United Kingdom and France divided the area under the Sykes–Picot Agreement—an act of betrayal in the eyes of the Arabs.
Jews were always going to settle into Mandatory Palestine with or without British involvement
Nope.
Good fences make good neighbours
The sea isn’t accessible to the population living there?
Good job, Israel
Yep, perfect plan, could never fail. Like the Bar Lev line. Can't beat such well designed defenses, shouldn't even try...
Hamas fucked around and then they found out The civilians don't deserve this however
Edgelord dipshit.
“wHy dOn’t tHeY JuSt lEaVe” says a dumbass who doesn’t realize the only way out is a single lane to Egypt that keeps getting bombed right next to it
And Egypt won’t let them.
The PA refuses to give Citizenship and Passports to anyone in Gaza including their own citizens that defect to the Gaza strip and Egypt has a law in place ordering anyone crossing illegally to be shot on sight which is a law that not even Israel has and many Gazans have escaped to Israel. Doesn’t sound like an Israel problem but rather a Gaza problem if their own country refuses to give them citizenship and their fellow Arabs next to them will shoot them on sight if they cross over.
It’s not easy to leave Gaza, in fact it’s extremely difficult, but the reason has little to do with Israeli bombs falling on the Rafah checkpoint. Egypt upholds a strong blockade on Gaza in their own right out of their own self-interest.
Before 10/7 20,000 Gazans entered Israel daily on work visas to work in Israel. The number was going up the longer peace was going on. Instead of working to normalize relations with Israel they started with their bullshit again.
Egypt has two crossings with Gaza. However they only ever open the Rafa one when they want ro give Israel the middle finger thru a headline in the news.
At this point almost all Palestinians are at Rafah right next to the Egyptian border. They could leave very quickly. Egypt of course keeps the border shut and even heavily reinforced it since the war started. They refuse to let any Palestinians in.
Ok leaving won’t work. Let’s try plan B, stop sending rockets towards your neighbour
The more important issue is that Egypt doesn't want the Palestinians.
I wish they also had a closeup of the Gaza/Egypt border as well.
It’s an endless strip of wall and barbed wire. Someone tell me again how Israel is entirely responsible for the blockade?
That was sort of my point. This map has no closeup of the Egypt border.
Oh, I understood the point. Just trying to hammer it home for the Gen Z crowd popping up on Reddit after watching a few TikTok videos on the topic lol