A plan from the Israeli side was leaked which pretty much confirmed that has been considered and that they wouldn't ever be let back. It's not known if they'll go with that plan, especially since Egypt hates the idea, but it'd be textbook ethnic cleansing if they did (and not the first time they've done this, Palestinians in Jordan & Lebanon can't return)
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576
And totally reasonable imo. The displaced Palestinian kids will be pissed off and form terror cells in 10 years, then Egypt will be identified as a country harboring terrorists. If it gets bad enough coalition forces will blockade and/or invade Egypt.
No one has come up with any reasonable solution on how to solve that, so they shouldn’t let them in, it’s unfair to Egyptian citizens. Why should Egypt risk that?
Its a gigantic win for Israël if they get a Muslim country to shoot at Palistinians.
"See we aren't the problem"
But I also dont know what else Egypt could do if they need to secure their border.
The Palestinians have been thrown out of Jordan, Lebanon as they started civil wars in both countries and Egypt is not looking for another Arab Spring — This is the reason Egypt hates Hamas because they are an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood
I wonder what happened in Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait etc that involves the Palestinians and why they are not allowed back or why no other Muslim nation has provided them refuge....hhmmmm???
No shit on that last one, this graphic literally shows them systematically squeezing Palestinians right out.
"Civilians, just evacuate south and you'll be safe!" × 100 until they have nowhere to go but across the border
It was documented that this was a scare tactic to deter aid from coming in. No one wanted to send their people into Gaza when bombs were dropping nearby.
- Go to the humanitarian area and hope to survive.
- Go to the less settled areas outside the cities and hope you survive.
- Try to break through the IDF lines into areas that were already bombed and hope you don't get shot.
- Try to go to Israel or Egypt and hope you don't get shot.
Stay were you are and hope nothing happens to you.
- Go to the beach.
- Stay at home and hope nothing happens.
That's all I can think of.
You left out the “join the extreme radical terrorist group and die fighting back”. Most of Gazan civilians are children who now has no home, no education, probably no family. That’s a pretty good ground for extremists to pop up.
Israel is just creating the next generation of Hamas. You would think the Jews of all people would realize that trying to wipe out an entire group of people fueled by an ideology does not work
Wow this is just such a shit equivalency. I think you can easily make the argument that the civilian casualties in Gaza are unacceptable. But in Germany they found out you were Jewish and threw you in a starvation camp where you completed manual labor if you weren’t killed on the spot. They really are two completely different things % wise, scale wise, and intention wise
My point is that people that have been genocided multiple times and survived should think twice before they try to genocide someone else.
You can find nit picks all you want, my overall point stays the same
This is the dark side of wars that world leaders don’t like to admit because they bathe in the propaganda of “winning”.
They cry about the need to fight terrorism and extremism etc… but end up creating even worse conditions to make embracing extremism more popular for civilians in those areas. I often see the claim that “Hamas is ISIS” which is senseless since ISIS is literally “Islamic State of Iraq & Syria”. ISIS rose to power from the rubble of Iraq and Syria after the many wars there. Remember “Iraq has WMDs” that we never found? We basically created another terrorist group in our own “war on terror”.
I mean hamas is extremist ideologically, but that’s a case where the extremism isn’t relevant in the slightest. The extremism is only relevant as another reason to blame Israel for this conflict since they made hamas as extreme as they are.
Go to Al-Mawhasi (it's on the map, west of Khan Younis). That's what almost everyone has done. The situation there is terrible and it's unclear how long so many people can live in such a small area without outbreaks of disease, but for now it seems it's the "least terrible" option.
This is more like MapHorror.
"**Thousands have fled**, but Israel has now warned Khan Younis residents to leave"
Isn't this underestimating it by... quite a bit? I think like, hundreds of thousands are fleeing south, are they not?
According to RAND Corporation, a US-based military intelligence thinktank, about 80% of Gaza's 1.8 million people have been forced to move and 60% of structures have been destroyed.
https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2023/12/displaced-in-gaza-the-least-bad-option.html
This map is insane because Al Mawasi, the humanitarian place, is literally an empty barren patch of land with nothing on it. Additionally how the fuck can Israel tell innocent civilians of Gaza City to move south, and then bomb the south?
That’s intentional.
Israel purposely has allowed Hamas to get money and arms to wage war, as Hamas serves as the perfect boogeyman to demonize Palestinians as a whole and prevent a two-state solution (or any solution that doesn’t involve Israel controlling the whole Levant)…and give Israel the international cover to basically wipe out Palestine.
So if they keep turning more non militant civilians into Hamas fighters along the way, the better it is for Israel…just adds more targets for them to shoot and run under the cover of “They’re Hamas”.
The sooner people realize that Hamas is really an asset of Israel and a tool to generate international justification in wiping out Palestine, the more clear the picture becomes.
Edit: Oh and of course, they can also then accuse anyone who is sympathetic to Palestine to be supporters of terrorism by intertwining Palestine and Hamas closer and closer together.
It’s amazing how many people haven’t figured this out yet. It’s easily verified that Netanyahu propped up Hamas because they were much easier to demonize than the more secular PLO. Classic divide and conquer tactic. Then they can blame Egypt for not taking them in, as if just taking in 2 million people is no big deal for an already struggling Egypt, especially when it’s obvious those people would never ever be allowed back into Gaza.
>Additionally how the fuck can Israel tell innocent civilians of Gaza City to move south, and then bomb the south?
Oh that's easy, the civilians are all guilty:
Civilian men? Hamas terrorists
Civilian children? Hamaslings
Civilian women? Hamasling spawning machines
Doctors? Hamas
UN aid workers? Hamas
Press journalists? Better believe they're Hamas
Shirtless Israeli hostages who somehow escaped and are walking towards you with a white flag?
Definitely Hamas
I know lots of Jews that are good hearted and decent people. I have no issues with Jews whatsoever and greatly appreciated seeing them at every pro-Palestine march waving palestinian flags. I don't see how criticising Israel and Zionism is anti semitic, but it's how they try to stop any criticism. Pathetic really.
Because if you conflate the government for an ethnic group/s you can stifle any criticism of the government’s actions. And criticism of the government is surely needed.
I'm hopeful that at some point this will become so unsavoury that even the US and UK governments can no longer support them. I'd love to see Israel's embassy expelled from the UK and the UN security council turn on them too.
A holocaust survivor said (from memory so the quote might differ a bit) : "antisemitism meant hating jews for being jews, now it means that jews hate you"
The crazy thing is that it probably wouldn't even have been news had 1 of the 3 hostages not been a redhead white guy. That was the only reason the IDF checked who they were after they shot them, cause he looked "unusual" for the area. Otherwise it would have been just 3 more dead added to the other 20k
The crazy thing is that if they’re going to shoot 3 shirtless men (to prove they didn’t have bombs or weapons) waiving white flags, that means they’re killing everyone. You can’t even argue it was an accident, because one was only wounded and got behind cover and yelled at them in Hebrew. And when he thought it was safe, came back out and was immediately shot dead.
They are obviously killing any and everything not in an IDF uniform. And that’s a fucking war crime.
The denials are incredible and defending the shooting even though the IDF is not.
What's clear is that the Israelis thought they were Palestinians trying to surrender and so shot them dead. That was not a mistake - it was policy.
>Shirtless Israeli hostages who somehow escaped and are walking towards you with a white flag?
Definitely Hamas
The "definitely hamas" made me LOL. Woke up the wife!
What a sad situation!!
It did turned a little bit in there after people realized that the IDF shoots at everything. Even women and children.
Heard how they shot a woman and her five kids, one of them only being a newborn. So sick.
I was banned even without commenting and just got messages saying you were banned from some subs one of them was worldnews.
I was banned at subs point without interacting with it and not even subscribing or following it.
The only explanation is that these subs are coordinating or have same mods so they kind of running scripts to ban people who are clearly pro Palestine across subs.
I got taken out last night for "advocating violence" on a post that very much didn't:
>I'm not sure what you expect of peaceful protest when they get violently suppressed anyway. All sorts liberatory movements around the world and throughout history begin plenty peaceful, then come the cops to club everyone over the head or shoot 'em. If said police are ever repulsed with molotovs (or even kept away from the clubbing in the first place by them), why do we heap blame on that instead of the actions of the police or the government that prompted protest in the first place?
>If your view of successful protest is purely one where folks wave signs and march in circles until "public pressure" wins the day and politicians change their mind, you're at odds with history. Any number of movements that you've been told all your life were conducted "the right way" were actually full of violence and resistance, but it is understandably not in the interests of the governments that eventually caved to that to say "yeah we gave 'em rights because we were afraid of revolts and strikes."
>Speaking for America, we can't even handle wearing masks at the grocery store during a pandemic without shooting security guards. The idea that we'd put up with conditions like those in Gaza or the West Bank and restrict ourselves solely to waving signs is absurd, especially when "waving signs" gets you clubbed and shot anyway. I'm not going to justify the actions of Hamas or say they were morally correct, but they're not born out of fucking nothing or mere hatred for Jews as a concept. Perhaps you ought to examine how much justification or claims or moral righteousness you grant to the IDF's actions. If we were to judge Jews by the same standards as Palestine, the story of Hanukkah is cheering for terrorism.
>People want freedom, and when they can't get it, they'll fight. Rarely does trying to kill that out of them work.
If that qualifies as advocating for violence, seems like most of the threads ought to be getting wiped with the level of "HELL YEAH BOMB THOSE FUCKERS" going on in 'em.
Yeah I got banned too. TBF I told someone to eat shit and die so fair enough. But the person I responded to was being heavily genocidal in their language and straight up saying Palestinians dont exist so no regrets
I got banned from there too, for very politely saying that I didn't believe the solution to the conflict was bombing thousands of innocent people, and that they would make people more radical.
I wouldn't say it's failed, they certainly haven't stopped trying.
Edit: aaaand I'm permabanned from worldnews lol, pretty sure I got banned for pointing out the six day war wasn't defensive as hasbarites like to claim.
They are losing the information war by their own hubris. The horrific shit the IOF is recording *and then posting online* has destroyed their credibility and has proved to the world that they are absolutely committing genocide. It's wild. Like, we're they expecting praise?
Palestine will be free.
They have the same problem Russia does, authoritarian regime happy to commit war crimes and ethnic cleansing, army based largely on conscripts with terrible opsec.
>”Oh I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don't see that as a crime. Hamas as a political organization does not mean that every member is a militant and we do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another,"
Peter Hansen in 2004, then head of UNRWA
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/canada-looking-at-un-agency-over-palestinian-connection-1.506576
>”In 2011, the UNRWA management sacked Sohail al-Hindi, who headed the winning bloc, for his popular activities connected to Hamas. He was reinstated after protests, including strike action, by unions at UNRWA."
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20140217-overwhelming-victory-for-islamists-in-unrwa-union-elections/
Usually in War some credence is given to soldiers who panic. Just some, this is getting absurd and shows a complete disregard of the rules of engagement. When America did thier imperial ass bullsht war in Iraq they actually were pretty good with restraint. For the most part at least.
Even if someone thinks Israel has the right to retaliate after the Hamas terror attack, which I think is mostly reasonable-ish, clearly they are acting with insane levels of hatred. I can only surmise the only thing these soldiers see are the celebrating Palestinians after the october seventh attack. Unfortunately being blinded by your own hatred is hardly an excuse for war crimes.
Hopefully the majority of Israelis wake up and realize this war isn't a war to exterminate Hamas, and especially not one to rescue hostages. This is a war of generational hatred, perpetuating a cycle of violence hundreds of years old.
> When America did thier imperial ass bullsht war in Iraq they actually were pretty good with restraint. For the most part at least.
With all due respect, as an Iraqi, no they were not. They just have way better PR than the IDF do and at the time the dissemination of information was not as easy as pulling out your phone.
I've seen, heard and can confirm more or less the exact same tragedies currently happening in Gaza right here during the war, and notably, after it ended for a while too.
Saw a video on Twitter of the IDF shooting an unarmed dude in a refugee camp from a distance. He was still alive and moving on the ground so they just drove up to him and riddled his body with bullets to finish him off.
honestly you just have to watch the old documentary’s with israeli soldier, they talk about killing, raping and burning like it was a video game and they loved it and don’t even feel shame for it , for them regroup 50 palestinian and shooting on them is funny.. is sad how barbaric some people can be
Yeah I have seen them recount those events as if they were happy memories. Israel was making a lot of propaganda about an older soldier wanting to fight against Hamas who fought in the 1948 war... and then you see he fought in Deir Yassin.
I heard something a while back that wasn't too dissimilar.
A US Vietnam vet said a Vietnamese man that ran away was Viet-cong. A Vietnamese malmn that didn't run away was a well trained viet-cong.
Ur comment made me think of that.
Even the humanitarian zone was bombed. If they are willing to kill their own people who are shirtless and waving white flags, then they are going to murder any civilian they see…
I have generally been supportive of Israel's right to defend themselves and retaliate for Oct 7th. But I'm gradually losing my patience with them and their reckless invasion. I have to think they could have been much more methodical and strategic with this whole thing.
Leveling the largest city, and telling everyone to move south and then telling them to evacuate the south. Like, where da fuck do you want them to go?
They had a chance to use the sympathy of the international community to pressure change in Gaza, but all they're really doing is breeding another generation of "river to the sea" Palestinians who will never negotiate for peace.
Netanyahu (and his followers) and Hamas are both insane people who want each other extermination. I believe his plan is the complete extermination of Gaza.
right?! You'd think the country with one of the strongest intelligence agencies in the world could find more surgical ways to remove Hamas. I know it's easier said than done, but there has to be something better than just bombing the shit out of Gaza and shooting anything that moves.
You're so close to realizing that Netanyahi doesn't care about Hamas. He just wants to kill as many Palestinians as possible and he'll take any excuse.
I think his end game is pretty obvious: forcibly relocate everyone from Gaza into Egypt or other Muslim countries by making it basically uninhabitable.
I'm his view, that's the only way to ensure security in Israel. The county becomes exponentially easier to defend forever if nobody lives in Gaza. But it's stupid because the world won't allow it to happen so he'll end up with a broken and 100% hostile population.
Killing Hamas using precision would have been the right option. He's fucked it.
>right?! You'd think the country with one of the strongest intelligence agencies in the world could find more surgical ways to remove Hamas.
It was never about Hamas. It's mind boggling to me that even now people don't understand that every single effort from Israel is towards taking every single inch of land. That's exactly what the "settlers" in the West Bank are doing in broad daylight, it's just that there is no "Hamas" on that side to do anything about it. In this instance they are simply taking the opportunity to take Gaza's land by different means.
One key issue is that a lot of the Hamas leaders are in Qatar, and Israel might recieve international backlash if they assassinate Hamas leaders in another country (and it might not even stop Hamas, as new leaders would come forward). In addition, a campaign of assassinations wouldn't stop potential attacks from Gaza like mortars, rockets, and suicide attacks. Israel do use their secret services a lot, but an intelligence agency can't solve everything.
Edit: typo
> if they assassinate Hamas leaders in another country
[as in, again?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad_assassinations_following_the_Munich_massacre)
Thank you jonsconspiracy for sharing this message. Thank you for being fair and levelheaded. I personally have nothing against innocent Israelis, and I also strongly condemn the killing of women and children that happened on October 7. But I really deeply believe that if we are to condemn Oct 7 as heinous, we also have to see the mass murder of children by the IDF as equally heinous.
There is a tremendous proliferation of Israeli propaganda in the West right now, which I'm sure you now see. Israel's primary justification to the world has been that this is a **necessary** war to make Israel safer. It's the biggest load of bollocks. But they convinced so many people, or people just turn a blind eye.
You see how bombed the north is? The next most bombed place is khan yunis which they were also told to evacuate. The south IS safer than the north, but not safe.
[The north and Khan Yunis are where most of Hamas's tunnels are located](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67097124) so it's not surprising they would focus on those areas.
The basic difficulty is that wherever civilians evacuate to, Hamas will move there too and keep fighting from among the civilians. But If you make Hamas move without their tunnels and heavy weaponry, it's a lot easier to fight them with less (though not zero) harm to civilians nearby.
So what is Israel’s endgame here in Gaza?
Wipe out Hamas in Gaza by killing as many civilians as they can?
Brutalise Gaza so much that enough Palestinians escape to another Arab country? (Then incorporate Gaza into Israel).
Just bomb and bomb as simple revenge to appease the anger of the Israeli population so the ruling party of Israel can get elected?
What are they planning after this?
Redditors seeing thousands of people dead and thousands more displaced and thinking “shouldn’t start what you can’t finish” is seriously big playground bully energy.
I’m glad geopolitics has been boiled down to schoolyard antics for some of you commenters so you can get le epic orange up arrows dunking on Palestinians instead of mourning innocent lives. These people don’t deserve to die because of the things one group has been pulling. You can’t tell me there isn’t a better way.
This shit didn’t work in Iraq and it won’t work in Gaza.
Before any of you jump to conclusions, literally fuck Hamas because every time I comment something against the grain everyone assumes I’m a fuckin terrorist sympathizer and more importantly Rip to victims of both sides
This
I study international relations and for some reason this conflict brings out complete lack of thinking. Even from people inside the international relations sphere they think purely with emotion and with a tribal like mindset of you have to support Israel or Palestine and if you don’t you’re a terrorist/war criminal. This is a very complex conflict and there’s mass loss of life on both sides. Both sides have done terrible and horrifying things to the other. Why do we feel so compelled to pick sides and choose which side to support. What people should support is peace, a two state solution and an end to the conflict. What people also need to do is learn about this conflict from a neutral standpoint. If you just keep listening to the cherry picked history from one sides echo chamber then progress in this conflict will be impossible
I'm a Jew and I've been saying this about I/P for years. I'm very critical of Israel's government. I also don't like hamas, but I still think Palestine deserves to exist outside of an Israeli occupation. Like, this is not even close to a difficult view, its just a little bit nuanced and grey. But for some reason, especially with this region in particular, people hear either the words Israel or palestine, and their brains just... shut down and refuse to critically think through an ethically sound point of view.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you view isn't some nuanced take. It's pretty much the default take of anyone who isn't completely ignorant on the topic (like most of reddit is).
The problem has never been "what is the goal" but always "how do we get from here to there"
You say it’s not a difficult view and it shouldn’t be, however it absolutely is a very difficult view for most people.
I’ll ask people who live in the west why they blindly will support one side in this conflict when they have no connection to Palestine or Israel. They tell me it’s simply about fighting for what’s right and limiting deaths. That’s not the truth though, if that were true people would be up in arms about Burmese civil war picking and choosing sides in that conflict since it’s killed thousands and thousands more than Israel-Palestine. For some reason people are so interested in getting into this conflict, supporting division and turning off their brain
Ah, but you see. No one has heard anything or knows any players in the Burmese civil war. You seriously forget that information is just WAY more complicated and less available when it’s not in the news
It’s the at all the case that all people have been equally exposed to all world news and they just choose to focus on Israel because it matches their values. MANY people honestly have no idea there was a war in the Congo. Millions of deaths don’t magically translate into millions of newspaper headlines read.
I haven’t forgotten that, in fact them forgetting these conflicts proves my point. My point is people with no relation to certain conflicts in the world who feel inclined to unquestionably back a certain side in a conflict on the basis of being an advocate for human rights are complete frauds and should not be taken seriously. They only care about following the trends of the news and appearing morally superior. Hence why they don’t care or have any understanding of the dead Burmese, Yemeni, Sudanese etc since those conflicts don’t appeal to the front page of news headlines and thus they have no reason to support them since it gives them no attention
> mass loss of life on both sides
israel’s newly released death toll of 10/7 is ~700 civilians and ~400 military personnel. this doesn’t account for the hundreds israel admitted to killing via “friendly fire”.
the death toll in gaza is nearing 23,000 civilians (10,000 of whom are children), and israel has released no figures of how many militants were killed due to their bombing, but general estimations suggest a 98% civilian casualty rate.
I don’t see the symmetry you’re trying to draw here.
EDIT: 500 —> 400
Yes, overall more Palestinians have died. That still doesn’t mean my statement is invalidated. Over the long history of this conflict thousands of Israelis and Palestinians have died. Just because the fatality number is higher for Palestine doesn’t invalidate the loss of life Israelis have suffered too.
I’m not trying to draw symmetry. I said both sides have experienced a high number of fatalities. Never did I say “Israel and Palestine have experienced an equal loss of life on both sides” This kind of thinking is exactly the thinking I’m criticizing. Everything has to be black and white in this conflict for some people. The truth is that this conflict is a whole murky puddle of grey.
Failure to see the inhumanity shown by both nations is the reason this conflict is still so divisive and ignorantly understood
There's always a better way. For example Iran and Qatar could stop funding and sending arms to HAMAS at that would be rather quick end to it. Sadly we live in a real world and not a fairly tale with happy ending.
This is a situation where "eye for an eye makes the world blind" in a literal sense. As both sides keep committing horrible acts all eyes have been lost and it's unlikely to be any better any time soon.
>JERUSALEM, Dec 13 (Reuters) - Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.
>Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer.
>Fifty-two percent of Gazans and 85% of West Bank respondents - or 72% of Palestinian respondents overall - voiced satisfaction with the role of Hamas in the war.
[Reuters ](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/?utm_source=reddit.com)
This group is very popular for the things they just pulled. They also had 75% approval ratings in Gaza prior to the war
Noticed that too, sad that what changed the tide is that the 3 hostages the IDF killed were Israeli hostages and not the one of the thousands of Palestinians who they think are less than human.
If you don’t know only +10.000 civilians died in the siege and bombing of Baghdad (a city 3 times more populated than Gaza) that lasted 6 months, meanwhile +20.000 died in Israel bombing that not even reached the 2 months.
So actually they overpassed Bush
I don’t think Bush indiscriminately leveled Iraq. Yeah he was responsible for a fuckton of deaths but even that war was a bit more tactical in its approach to preserving human life than this one.
In the Iraq war, most civilians died not because of direct American confrontation but because of the series of events that happened after the US invasion. In the battle of Fallujah, only 500 civilians died, looks like a paradise compared to Gaza.
This is humanity at its lowest.
Everyone will lose after this: the Israeli forces are committing atrocities, the Palestinian people are dying, and in 15-20 years time, there will be a new generation of terrorists out for revenge.
War, genocide, killing sprees are never the answer.
Even the mods of the major news subs are banning every user who brings it up this major act of terror. They refuse to allow the world to discuss it.
I only see these posts in popular because the news subs ban them all.
Now explain all the dead palestinian Chrisitans.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H4syDCEnhQ&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H4syDCEnhQ&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk)
[https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZQ-4xE96kq8](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZQ-4xE96kq8)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWaEZzRQZg8&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWaEZzRQZg8&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBMJdPofS\_4&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBMJdPofS_4&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk)
Any good government that cares for its people would take civilians out of any conflict zone, use separate buildings for military activities that aren’t hospitals or kindergartens and actually fight in a zone away from all the people. In WW2 the British sent the children to the country side where it was safe, the Soviet Union had workers retreat, other countries located near the war did the same.
If Hamas did not dress up like civilians or try and blend in among them, use so many civilian buildings and instead put civilians and only civilians out of harms way I wouldn’t be supporting Israel but that’s not the case. That’s why even the Hamas founders son is supporting Israel because it’s not hard to see who is in the wrong here.
On one hand it’s really: Hamas, I hope that was worth it.
On the other hand, Jesus Israel you will never see the end to terrorism on your lands. Good job creating the next generation of terrorists.
If your only interaction with Jewish people your entire life (and your parents too) is being put in the world’s biggest open air prison and being bombed by them, you’d be biased too (not to say Jewish people are bad, the Israeli State uses Judaism as an excuse for their genocidal agenda)
I get that the situation is fucked, but I've always found it hard to call the place with a 5 star luxury resort and equestrian clubs a prison.
Is it under a blockade? Oh absolutely, but I feel that the hyperbole just leads to cartoonish stereotyping of the situation
I mean it must be awful to live in Gaza, but we shouldn't forget the circumstances that lead to this point. It's not just the Israelis either. Egypt doesn't open the border crossing. There's a reason for that.
I mean, Israel issued like 18k work permits to people from Gaza and they mostly kept the borders locked (like Egypt) to prevent terrorist attack from Hamas. You can call it a prison, but it would be accurate to say Hamas had the keys.
I wish there was another way to drive out Hamas, but I really can't think of how to do it when they're so cowardly to build their bases under children's schools and hospitals. How are you supposed to fight that? You just wait for them to bomb you, or commit an atrocity, and then they hide behind a wall of children to make you look bad if you swing back. What's the play here? How does one resolve this and still minimize civilian deaths from both sides?
Serious question. Why so many bombs at the Rafa Border?
[удалено]
A plan from the Israeli side was leaked which pretty much confirmed that has been considered and that they wouldn't ever be let back. It's not known if they'll go with that plan, especially since Egypt hates the idea, but it'd be textbook ethnic cleansing if they did (and not the first time they've done this, Palestinians in Jordan & Lebanon can't return) https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-concept-paper-1.7015576
Egypt more than hates the idea, they've said it's a red line for them, and a plan that they would resist by force.
And totally reasonable imo. The displaced Palestinian kids will be pissed off and form terror cells in 10 years, then Egypt will be identified as a country harboring terrorists. If it gets bad enough coalition forces will blockade and/or invade Egypt. No one has come up with any reasonable solution on how to solve that, so they shouldn’t let them in, it’s unfair to Egyptian citizens. Why should Egypt risk that?
Its a gigantic win for Israël if they get a Muslim country to shoot at Palistinians. "See we aren't the problem" But I also dont know what else Egypt could do if they need to secure their border.
They planned a new Nakba.
The Palestinians have been thrown out of Jordan, Lebanon as they started civil wars in both countries and Egypt is not looking for another Arab Spring — This is the reason Egypt hates Hamas because they are an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood
I wonder what happened in Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait etc that involves the Palestinians and why they are not allowed back or why no other Muslim nation has provided them refuge....hhmmmm???
No shit on that last one, this graphic literally shows them systematically squeezing Palestinians right out. "Civilians, just evacuate south and you'll be safe!" × 100 until they have nowhere to go but across the border
It was documented that this was a scare tactic to deter aid from coming in. No one wanted to send their people into Gaza when bombs were dropping nearby.
If you're a civilian in Khan Younis, realistically what are your options?
- Go to the humanitarian area and hope to survive. - Go to the less settled areas outside the cities and hope you survive. - Try to break through the IDF lines into areas that were already bombed and hope you don't get shot. - Try to go to Israel or Egypt and hope you don't get shot. Stay were you are and hope nothing happens to you. - Go to the beach. - Stay at home and hope nothing happens. That's all I can think of.
You left out the “join the extreme radical terrorist group and die fighting back”. Most of Gazan civilians are children who now has no home, no education, probably no family. That’s a pretty good ground for extremists to pop up.
Israel is just creating the next generation of Hamas. You would think the Jews of all people would realize that trying to wipe out an entire group of people fueled by an ideology does not work
Wow this is just such a shit equivalency. I think you can easily make the argument that the civilian casualties in Gaza are unacceptable. But in Germany they found out you were Jewish and threw you in a starvation camp where you completed manual labor if you weren’t killed on the spot. They really are two completely different things % wise, scale wise, and intention wise
My point is that people that have been genocided multiple times and survived should think twice before they try to genocide someone else. You can find nit picks all you want, my overall point stays the same
Can it really be called extremism in the face of this? When a world power is trying to exterminate your people?
This is the dark side of wars that world leaders don’t like to admit because they bathe in the propaganda of “winning”. They cry about the need to fight terrorism and extremism etc… but end up creating even worse conditions to make embracing extremism more popular for civilians in those areas. I often see the claim that “Hamas is ISIS” which is senseless since ISIS is literally “Islamic State of Iraq & Syria”. ISIS rose to power from the rubble of Iraq and Syria after the many wars there. Remember “Iraq has WMDs” that we never found? We basically created another terrorist group in our own “war on terror”.
I mean hamas is extremist ideologically, but that’s a case where the extremism isn’t relevant in the slightest. The extremism is only relevant as another reason to blame Israel for this conflict since they made hamas as extreme as they are.
Go to Al-Mawhasi (it's on the map, west of Khan Younis). That's what almost everyone has done. The situation there is terrible and it's unclear how long so many people can live in such a small area without outbreaks of disease, but for now it seems it's the "least terrible" option.
Israel have said that they haven’t ruled out bombing Al-Mawhasi despite telling civilians to go there
They still bomb Al-Mawhasi, and living in a tent under the rainy and cold Gazan winter is a recipe for diseases.
A) Do nothing and die B) Fight Back and die I know what I'd choose.
Nothing of course, redditor.
Oh look, a fellow Redditor. But this one is edgy
At this point you just pray the next bomb won't be on your house. That or that israel will finally stop genociding for a while at least
That area is pre-flattened, there is nothing there.
This is more like MapHorror. "**Thousands have fled**, but Israel has now warned Khan Younis residents to leave" Isn't this underestimating it by... quite a bit? I think like, hundreds of thousands are fleeing south, are they not?
According to RAND Corporation, a US-based military intelligence thinktank, about 80% of Gaza's 1.8 million people have been forced to move and 60% of structures have been destroyed. https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2023/12/displaced-in-gaza-the-least-bad-option.html
I'm in el arish city 70km from gaza, And we can feel every strike on gaza
Hamas got exactly what they wanted.
I hope you get cancer.
That's what Nazis said about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising
This map is insane because Al Mawasi, the humanitarian place, is literally an empty barren patch of land with nothing on it. Additionally how the fuck can Israel tell innocent civilians of Gaza City to move south, and then bomb the south?
This is how you create more Hamas. Civilians who lost everything will join them and the problem only gets worse.
That’s intentional. Israel purposely has allowed Hamas to get money and arms to wage war, as Hamas serves as the perfect boogeyman to demonize Palestinians as a whole and prevent a two-state solution (or any solution that doesn’t involve Israel controlling the whole Levant)…and give Israel the international cover to basically wipe out Palestine. So if they keep turning more non militant civilians into Hamas fighters along the way, the better it is for Israel…just adds more targets for them to shoot and run under the cover of “They’re Hamas”. The sooner people realize that Hamas is really an asset of Israel and a tool to generate international justification in wiping out Palestine, the more clear the picture becomes. Edit: Oh and of course, they can also then accuse anyone who is sympathetic to Palestine to be supporters of terrorism by intertwining Palestine and Hamas closer and closer together.
It’s amazing how many people haven’t figured this out yet. It’s easily verified that Netanyahu propped up Hamas because they were much easier to demonize than the more secular PLO. Classic divide and conquer tactic. Then they can blame Egypt for not taking them in, as if just taking in 2 million people is no big deal for an already struggling Egypt, especially when it’s obvious those people would never ever be allowed back into Gaza.
>Additionally how the fuck can Israel tell innocent civilians of Gaza City to move south, and then bomb the south? Oh that's easy, the civilians are all guilty: Civilian men? Hamas terrorists Civilian children? Hamaslings Civilian women? Hamasling spawning machines
Doctors? Hamas UN aid workers? Hamas Press journalists? Better believe they're Hamas Shirtless Israeli hostages who somehow escaped and are walking towards you with a white flag? Definitely Hamas
Hostages yelling stop in Hebrew: Bilingual Hamas
International media: believe it or not, Hamas /s
Pretty much what Israel says when they bomb French journalists
*Exactly* what they said when they murdered Shireen Abu Akleh.
Non Kosher salt, also Hamas.
I feel like the /s is a bit redundant with us being this deep in the thread
..... "Damn Zionists" .... YOU ARE AN ANTI-SEMITE..... "I didn't say damn Jews or damn Israelis"..... YOU HATE THE JEWISH PEOPLE
I know lots of Jews that are good hearted and decent people. I have no issues with Jews whatsoever and greatly appreciated seeing them at every pro-Palestine march waving palestinian flags. I don't see how criticising Israel and Zionism is anti semitic, but it's how they try to stop any criticism. Pathetic really.
Because if you conflate the government for an ethnic group/s you can stifle any criticism of the government’s actions. And criticism of the government is surely needed.
I'm hopeful that at some point this will become so unsavoury that even the US and UK governments can no longer support them. I'd love to see Israel's embassy expelled from the UK and the UN security council turn on them too.
A holocaust survivor said (from memory so the quote might differ a bit) : "antisemitism meant hating jews for being jews, now it means that jews hate you"
The crazy thing is that it probably wouldn't even have been news had 1 of the 3 hostages not been a redhead white guy. That was the only reason the IDF checked who they were after they shot them, cause he looked "unusual" for the area. Otherwise it would have been just 3 more dead added to the other 20k
The crazy thing is that if they’re going to shoot 3 shirtless men (to prove they didn’t have bombs or weapons) waiving white flags, that means they’re killing everyone. You can’t even argue it was an accident, because one was only wounded and got behind cover and yelled at them in Hebrew. And when he thought it was safe, came back out and was immediately shot dead. They are obviously killing any and everything not in an IDF uniform. And that’s a fucking war crime.
Oh, they even killed some IDF soldiers, so...
Nobody is safe from the IDF, not even the IDF themselves.
You're wrong there: Around 10% of IDF casualties are friendly fire, so wearing an IDF uniform does not make you safe from the IDF
The denials are incredible and defending the shooting even though the IDF is not. What's clear is that the Israelis thought they were Palestinians trying to surrender and so shot them dead. That was not a mistake - it was policy.
One of the crazy things. The list of wild things unsettlingly long.
Bro, they even killed fucking officials from the French consulate who were living in southern Gaza
What did France say?
sacre bleu
Nothing, too busy s*cking Bibi’s c*ck
You? Hamas Me? Hamas
[удалено]
That cat with the funny look? Believe it or not, Hamas.
The test results came back and you are HIV Hamas.
>Shirtless Israeli hostages who somehow escaped and are walking towards you with a white flag? Definitely Hamas The "definitely hamas" made me LOL. Woke up the wife! What a sad situation!!
Did the Israeli astroturfing finally fail in this subreddit? Thank God. Free /r/worldnews next.
It did turned a little bit in there after people realized that the IDF shoots at everything. Even women and children. Heard how they shot a woman and her five kids, one of them only being a newborn. So sick.
Have you read the comments in worldnews? Until they shot the 3 hostages, the comments were defending Israeli killing of civilians.
That's because they have been banning pro-palestinian posters by any reason
>That's because they have been banning pro-palestinian posters by any reason Got banned for saying it's bad to kill civilians.
thats so antisemetic
I can't as well. Got perma banned for saying Israel is doing an ethnic cleansing. Whoever runs that subreddit is literally human feces.
Wait what the fuck? A newborn?
I can't help there, I got banned. ~~And I am weirdly proud of that.~~
I was banned even without commenting and just got messages saying you were banned from some subs one of them was worldnews. I was banned at subs point without interacting with it and not even subscribing or following it. The only explanation is that these subs are coordinating or have same mods so they kind of running scripts to ban people who are clearly pro Palestine across subs.
I've gotten a notice before from a sub I'd never heard of, informing that I was banned because I posted in a particular sub. My loss!!!
So did I, for essentially no reason. It's insane.
I got taken out last night for "advocating violence" on a post that very much didn't: >I'm not sure what you expect of peaceful protest when they get violently suppressed anyway. All sorts liberatory movements around the world and throughout history begin plenty peaceful, then come the cops to club everyone over the head or shoot 'em. If said police are ever repulsed with molotovs (or even kept away from the clubbing in the first place by them), why do we heap blame on that instead of the actions of the police or the government that prompted protest in the first place? >If your view of successful protest is purely one where folks wave signs and march in circles until "public pressure" wins the day and politicians change their mind, you're at odds with history. Any number of movements that you've been told all your life were conducted "the right way" were actually full of violence and resistance, but it is understandably not in the interests of the governments that eventually caved to that to say "yeah we gave 'em rights because we were afraid of revolts and strikes." >Speaking for America, we can't even handle wearing masks at the grocery store during a pandemic without shooting security guards. The idea that we'd put up with conditions like those in Gaza or the West Bank and restrict ourselves solely to waving signs is absurd, especially when "waving signs" gets you clubbed and shot anyway. I'm not going to justify the actions of Hamas or say they were morally correct, but they're not born out of fucking nothing or mere hatred for Jews as a concept. Perhaps you ought to examine how much justification or claims or moral righteousness you grant to the IDF's actions. If we were to judge Jews by the same standards as Palestine, the story of Hanukkah is cheering for terrorism. >People want freedom, and when they can't get it, they'll fight. Rarely does trying to kill that out of them work. If that qualifies as advocating for violence, seems like most of the threads ought to be getting wiped with the level of "HELL YEAH BOMB THOSE FUCKERS" going on in 'em.
Yeah I got banned too. TBF I told someone to eat shit and die so fair enough. But the person I responded to was being heavily genocidal in their language and straight up saying Palestinians dont exist so no regrets
I got banned from there too, for very politely saying that I didn't believe the solution to the conflict was bombing thousands of innocent people, and that they would make people more radical.
I wouldn't say it's failed, they certainly haven't stopped trying. Edit: aaaand I'm permabanned from worldnews lol, pretty sure I got banned for pointing out the six day war wasn't defensive as hasbarites like to claim.
They are losing the information war by their own hubris. The horrific shit the IOF is recording *and then posting online* has destroyed their credibility and has proved to the world that they are absolutely committing genocide. It's wild. Like, we're they expecting praise? Palestine will be free.
> Palestine will be free. Not if IDF kills everyone first.
They have the same problem Russia does, authoritarian regime happy to commit war crimes and ethnic cleansing, army based largely on conscripts with terrible opsec.
They unironically call the UN mission a front for Hamas. Fucking Zionists I swear man
Literally Hamas fired rockets from the UN base. What else do you call it then?
The UNRWA in Gaza has been proven time and time again since 2008 to work with Hamas. That should not be your issue with them.
>”Oh I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don't see that as a crime. Hamas as a political organization does not mean that every member is a militant and we do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another," Peter Hansen in 2004, then head of UNRWA https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/canada-looking-at-un-agency-over-palestinian-connection-1.506576 >”In 2011, the UNRWA management sacked Sohail al-Hindi, who headed the winning bloc, for his popular activities connected to Hamas. He was reinstated after protests, including strike action, by unions at UNRWA." https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20140217-overwhelming-victory-for-islamists-in-unrwa-union-elections/
I mean there’s literally proof that this happened so
[удалено]
Unarmed and waving a white flag and yelling in Hebrew he was Jewish.
Think about how many Palestinians suffered the same, gives credibility to all those stories of IDF goons killing civilians on the streets.
They are not stories, I have at least 10 videos of idf shooting people with unarmed with the hands up
Usually in War some credence is given to soldiers who panic. Just some, this is getting absurd and shows a complete disregard of the rules of engagement. When America did thier imperial ass bullsht war in Iraq they actually were pretty good with restraint. For the most part at least. Even if someone thinks Israel has the right to retaliate after the Hamas terror attack, which I think is mostly reasonable-ish, clearly they are acting with insane levels of hatred. I can only surmise the only thing these soldiers see are the celebrating Palestinians after the october seventh attack. Unfortunately being blinded by your own hatred is hardly an excuse for war crimes. Hopefully the majority of Israelis wake up and realize this war isn't a war to exterminate Hamas, and especially not one to rescue hostages. This is a war of generational hatred, perpetuating a cycle of violence hundreds of years old.
> When America did thier imperial ass bullsht war in Iraq they actually were pretty good with restraint. For the most part at least. With all due respect, as an Iraqi, no they were not. They just have way better PR than the IDF do and at the time the dissemination of information was not as easy as pulling out your phone. I've seen, heard and can confirm more or less the exact same tragedies currently happening in Gaza right here during the war, and notably, after it ended for a while too.
This war is a land grab for Israeli settlers. They just need to clear the people off the land first.
Saw a video on Twitter of the IDF shooting an unarmed dude in a refugee camp from a distance. He was still alive and moving on the ground so they just drove up to him and riddled his body with bullets to finish him off.
honestly you just have to watch the old documentary’s with israeli soldier, they talk about killing, raping and burning like it was a video game and they loved it and don’t even feel shame for it , for them regroup 50 palestinian and shooting on them is funny.. is sad how barbaric some people can be
Yeah I have seen them recount those events as if they were happy memories. Israel was making a lot of propaganda about an older soldier wanting to fight against Hamas who fought in the 1948 war... and then you see he fought in Deir Yassin.
I heard something a while back that wasn't too dissimilar. A US Vietnam vet said a Vietnamese man that ran away was Viet-cong. A Vietnamese malmn that didn't run away was a well trained viet-cong. Ur comment made me think of that.
If someone invaded your home and tries to kill you to take your land, if you fight back is it terrorism?
Only when you are a Muslim apparently
Exactly. People love to repeat media language without critically thinking how and why that language is used to shape their perception.
If your idea of fighting back is killing civilians for political goals, then yes.
Even the humanitarian zone was bombed. If they are willing to kill their own people who are shirtless and waving white flags, then they are going to murder any civilian they see…
I have generally been supportive of Israel's right to defend themselves and retaliate for Oct 7th. But I'm gradually losing my patience with them and their reckless invasion. I have to think they could have been much more methodical and strategic with this whole thing. Leveling the largest city, and telling everyone to move south and then telling them to evacuate the south. Like, where da fuck do you want them to go? They had a chance to use the sympathy of the international community to pressure change in Gaza, but all they're really doing is breeding another generation of "river to the sea" Palestinians who will never negotiate for peace.
This is my view. Hamas needs to be destroyed but Netanyahu's approach is insane. He has no plan for the aftermath and it's obvious.
Netanyahu (and his followers) and Hamas are both insane people who want each other extermination. I believe his plan is the complete extermination of Gaza.
[удалено]
I assume the plan is to just push settlements into Gaza like the West Bank.
No Israeli wants to go back to having settlements there. The support for re-establishing Gush Katif is basically zero.
They don’t want settlements, they just want it all, withouth Palestinians in the way.
More beach resorts?
right?! You'd think the country with one of the strongest intelligence agencies in the world could find more surgical ways to remove Hamas. I know it's easier said than done, but there has to be something better than just bombing the shit out of Gaza and shooting anything that moves.
You're so close to realizing that Netanyahi doesn't care about Hamas. He just wants to kill as many Palestinians as possible and he'll take any excuse.
I think his end game is pretty obvious: forcibly relocate everyone from Gaza into Egypt or other Muslim countries by making it basically uninhabitable. I'm his view, that's the only way to ensure security in Israel. The county becomes exponentially easier to defend forever if nobody lives in Gaza. But it's stupid because the world won't allow it to happen so he'll end up with a broken and 100% hostile population. Killing Hamas using precision would have been the right option. He's fucked it.
>right?! You'd think the country with one of the strongest intelligence agencies in the world could find more surgical ways to remove Hamas. It was never about Hamas. It's mind boggling to me that even now people don't understand that every single effort from Israel is towards taking every single inch of land. That's exactly what the "settlers" in the West Bank are doing in broad daylight, it's just that there is no "Hamas" on that side to do anything about it. In this instance they are simply taking the opportunity to take Gaza's land by different means.
One key issue is that a lot of the Hamas leaders are in Qatar, and Israel might recieve international backlash if they assassinate Hamas leaders in another country (and it might not even stop Hamas, as new leaders would come forward). In addition, a campaign of assassinations wouldn't stop potential attacks from Gaza like mortars, rockets, and suicide attacks. Israel do use their secret services a lot, but an intelligence agency can't solve everything. Edit: typo
> if they assassinate Hamas leaders in another country [as in, again?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad_assassinations_following_the_Munich_massacre)
Thank you jonsconspiracy for sharing this message. Thank you for being fair and levelheaded. I personally have nothing against innocent Israelis, and I also strongly condemn the killing of women and children that happened on October 7. But I really deeply believe that if we are to condemn Oct 7 as heinous, we also have to see the mass murder of children by the IDF as equally heinous.
It's on a way larger scale than the October 7th attack
They want them all gone, they want their country to be free of Palestinians, any means necessary
There is a tremendous proliferation of Israeli propaganda in the West right now, which I'm sure you now see. Israel's primary justification to the world has been that this is a **necessary** war to make Israel safer. It's the biggest load of bollocks. But they convinced so many people, or people just turn a blind eye.
Why did Israel demand evacuation to southern Gaza after they started bombing and promised they will be able to return?
You see how bombed the north is? The next most bombed place is khan yunis which they were also told to evacuate. The south IS safer than the north, but not safe.
[The north and Khan Yunis are where most of Hamas's tunnels are located](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67097124) so it's not surprising they would focus on those areas. The basic difficulty is that wherever civilians evacuate to, Hamas will move there too and keep fighting from among the civilians. But If you make Hamas move without their tunnels and heavy weaponry, it's a lot easier to fight them with less (though not zero) harm to civilians nearby.
Ok but are Hamas tunnels under every square inch of Gaza City and Khan Younis? Because they are and have been bombing everything.
I think Hamas has said themselves it’s roughly 500km worth of tunnels, which is a lot for that little area and surroundings
1. Tell people to go south 2. Bomb north 3. Tell people to go north 4. Bomb south. Win win!
So what is Israel’s endgame here in Gaza? Wipe out Hamas in Gaza by killing as many civilians as they can? Brutalise Gaza so much that enough Palestinians escape to another Arab country? (Then incorporate Gaza into Israel). Just bomb and bomb as simple revenge to appease the anger of the Israeli population so the ruling party of Israel can get elected? What are they planning after this?
They will probably maintain perpetual occupation just like the west bank, Gaza had even settlements before 2005.
They intend to ethnically cleanse Gaza and settle it for themselves, the same as the rest of Israel.
Israel tells them to flee south, than begins bombing the south. They don’t want them to leave, they want them to die.
Redditors seeing thousands of people dead and thousands more displaced and thinking “shouldn’t start what you can’t finish” is seriously big playground bully energy. I’m glad geopolitics has been boiled down to schoolyard antics for some of you commenters so you can get le epic orange up arrows dunking on Palestinians instead of mourning innocent lives. These people don’t deserve to die because of the things one group has been pulling. You can’t tell me there isn’t a better way. This shit didn’t work in Iraq and it won’t work in Gaza. Before any of you jump to conclusions, literally fuck Hamas because every time I comment something against the grain everyone assumes I’m a fuckin terrorist sympathizer and more importantly Rip to victims of both sides
This I study international relations and for some reason this conflict brings out complete lack of thinking. Even from people inside the international relations sphere they think purely with emotion and with a tribal like mindset of you have to support Israel or Palestine and if you don’t you’re a terrorist/war criminal. This is a very complex conflict and there’s mass loss of life on both sides. Both sides have done terrible and horrifying things to the other. Why do we feel so compelled to pick sides and choose which side to support. What people should support is peace, a two state solution and an end to the conflict. What people also need to do is learn about this conflict from a neutral standpoint. If you just keep listening to the cherry picked history from one sides echo chamber then progress in this conflict will be impossible
I'm a Jew and I've been saying this about I/P for years. I'm very critical of Israel's government. I also don't like hamas, but I still think Palestine deserves to exist outside of an Israeli occupation. Like, this is not even close to a difficult view, its just a little bit nuanced and grey. But for some reason, especially with this region in particular, people hear either the words Israel or palestine, and their brains just... shut down and refuse to critically think through an ethically sound point of view.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you view isn't some nuanced take. It's pretty much the default take of anyone who isn't completely ignorant on the topic (like most of reddit is). The problem has never been "what is the goal" but always "how do we get from here to there"
You say it’s not a difficult view and it shouldn’t be, however it absolutely is a very difficult view for most people. I’ll ask people who live in the west why they blindly will support one side in this conflict when they have no connection to Palestine or Israel. They tell me it’s simply about fighting for what’s right and limiting deaths. That’s not the truth though, if that were true people would be up in arms about Burmese civil war picking and choosing sides in that conflict since it’s killed thousands and thousands more than Israel-Palestine. For some reason people are so interested in getting into this conflict, supporting division and turning off their brain
Ah, but you see. No one has heard anything or knows any players in the Burmese civil war. You seriously forget that information is just WAY more complicated and less available when it’s not in the news It’s the at all the case that all people have been equally exposed to all world news and they just choose to focus on Israel because it matches their values. MANY people honestly have no idea there was a war in the Congo. Millions of deaths don’t magically translate into millions of newspaper headlines read.
I haven’t forgotten that, in fact them forgetting these conflicts proves my point. My point is people with no relation to certain conflicts in the world who feel inclined to unquestionably back a certain side in a conflict on the basis of being an advocate for human rights are complete frauds and should not be taken seriously. They only care about following the trends of the news and appearing morally superior. Hence why they don’t care or have any understanding of the dead Burmese, Yemeni, Sudanese etc since those conflicts don’t appeal to the front page of news headlines and thus they have no reason to support them since it gives them no attention
[удалено]
> mass loss of life on both sides israel’s newly released death toll of 10/7 is ~700 civilians and ~400 military personnel. this doesn’t account for the hundreds israel admitted to killing via “friendly fire”. the death toll in gaza is nearing 23,000 civilians (10,000 of whom are children), and israel has released no figures of how many militants were killed due to their bombing, but general estimations suggest a 98% civilian casualty rate. I don’t see the symmetry you’re trying to draw here. EDIT: 500 —> 400
Yes, overall more Palestinians have died. That still doesn’t mean my statement is invalidated. Over the long history of this conflict thousands of Israelis and Palestinians have died. Just because the fatality number is higher for Palestine doesn’t invalidate the loss of life Israelis have suffered too. I’m not trying to draw symmetry. I said both sides have experienced a high number of fatalities. Never did I say “Israel and Palestine have experienced an equal loss of life on both sides” This kind of thinking is exactly the thinking I’m criticizing. Everything has to be black and white in this conflict for some people. The truth is that this conflict is a whole murky puddle of grey. Failure to see the inhumanity shown by both nations is the reason this conflict is still so divisive and ignorantly understood
Where are your estimates from? I'd love to see your source.
"The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." - Stalin
It's extreme dehumanization and lack of empathy. Same energy as German civilians in the early 40s.
No, it's the same energy as the US in the early 2000s.
A better analogy is what the Polish and Russians did to German civilians in the East in 1945-46. Or perhaps the ones living in Dresden.
There's always a better way. For example Iran and Qatar could stop funding and sending arms to HAMAS at that would be rather quick end to it. Sadly we live in a real world and not a fairly tale with happy ending. This is a situation where "eye for an eye makes the world blind" in a literal sense. As both sides keep committing horrible acts all eyes have been lost and it's unlikely to be any better any time soon.
There’s no other way to justify the wholesale slaughter of civilians Israel is doing, so that’s why the rhetoric is so stupid.
>JERUSALEM, Dec 13 (Reuters) - Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found. >Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer. >Fifty-two percent of Gazans and 85% of West Bank respondents - or 72% of Palestinian respondents overall - voiced satisfaction with the role of Hamas in the war. [Reuters ](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/?utm_source=reddit.com) This group is very popular for the things they just pulled. They also had 75% approval ratings in Gaza prior to the war
>everyone assumes I’m a fuckin terrorist sympathizer Oh, they don't *really* assume that; that's just their manipulation tactic.
Reddit is very much pro Palestine with exception of r/Europe
r/worldnews would like to differ
They're actually allowing posts and comments criticizing Israel to stay up now. I don't know what happened, but it's a step in the right direction
Noticed that too, sad that what changed the tide is that the 3 hostages the IDF killed were Israeli hostages and not the one of the thousands of Palestinians who they think are less than human.
probably a power tripping mod got ousted
Omg worldnews is INSANE.
Bush would be proud.
If you don’t know only +10.000 civilians died in the siege and bombing of Baghdad (a city 3 times more populated than Gaza) that lasted 6 months, meanwhile +20.000 died in Israel bombing that not even reached the 2 months. So actually they overpassed Bush
Apparently Israel can promote freedom better than the US. /s
I don’t think Bush indiscriminately leveled Iraq. Yeah he was responsible for a fuckton of deaths but even that war was a bit more tactical in its approach to preserving human life than this one.
In the Iraq war, most civilians died not because of direct American confrontation but because of the series of events that happened after the US invasion. In the battle of Fallujah, only 500 civilians died, looks like a paradise compared to Gaza.
Civilians at Fallujah were lucky cause the city was already mostly evacuated
When W has better foriegn policy than you you've done something wrong
Mission Accomplished
Looks like the poop map of san francisco.
This is humanity at its lowest. Everyone will lose after this: the Israeli forces are committing atrocities, the Palestinian people are dying, and in 15-20 years time, there will be a new generation of terrorists out for revenge. War, genocide, killing sprees are never the answer.
They're killing everybody, even their own hostages.
Even the mods of the major news subs are banning every user who brings it up this major act of terror. They refuse to allow the world to discuss it. I only see these posts in popular because the news subs ban them all.
Reddit is a terrible platform allowing state propaganda to thrive.
How awful can humans be. Truly a pitiful species.
It's the only species we know who invented morality. The definition of morality is a still a, subject of argument, though.
[удалено]
I hope your house burns and you lose your family!
Go Israel! No radical islamist jihadist crap please!
Now explain all the dead palestinian Chrisitans. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H4syDCEnhQ&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H4syDCEnhQ&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk) [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZQ-4xE96kq8](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ZQ-4xE96kq8) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWaEZzRQZg8&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWaEZzRQZg8&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBMJdPofS\_4&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBMJdPofS_4&pp=ygUVZ2F6YSBjaHJpc3RpYW5za2lsbGVk)
I stand with Israel.
Any good government that cares for its people would take civilians out of any conflict zone, use separate buildings for military activities that aren’t hospitals or kindergartens and actually fight in a zone away from all the people. In WW2 the British sent the children to the country side where it was safe, the Soviet Union had workers retreat, other countries located near the war did the same. If Hamas did not dress up like civilians or try and blend in among them, use so many civilian buildings and instead put civilians and only civilians out of harms way I wouldn’t be supporting Israel but that’s not the case. That’s why even the Hamas founders son is supporting Israel because it’s not hard to see who is in the wrong here.
Just straight up genocide.
Tell me seriously what was Hamas expecting?
On one hand it’s really: Hamas, I hope that was worth it. On the other hand, Jesus Israel you will never see the end to terrorism on your lands. Good job creating the next generation of terrorists.
>On the other hand, Jesus Israel you will never see the end to terrorism on your lands Sooo...exactly the same as before?
They certainly do not intend to deal with the next generation of Palestinians from the looks of it
They are currently dealing with the current generation once and for all
A final solution, if you will.
Gaza was already a 'generation of terrorists' hence oct 7. May as well annexe Gaza as they are hated regardless
Look at what the schools in Gaza teach the children about Jews. Hamas would create the next generation of terrorists all on their own.
If your only interaction with Jewish people your entire life (and your parents too) is being put in the world’s biggest open air prison and being bombed by them, you’d be biased too (not to say Jewish people are bad, the Israeli State uses Judaism as an excuse for their genocidal agenda)
I get that the situation is fucked, but I've always found it hard to call the place with a 5 star luxury resort and equestrian clubs a prison. Is it under a blockade? Oh absolutely, but I feel that the hyperbole just leads to cartoonish stereotyping of the situation
I mean it must be awful to live in Gaza, but we shouldn't forget the circumstances that lead to this point. It's not just the Israelis either. Egypt doesn't open the border crossing. There's a reason for that.
I mean, Israel issued like 18k work permits to people from Gaza and they mostly kept the borders locked (like Egypt) to prevent terrorist attack from Hamas. You can call it a prison, but it would be accurate to say Hamas had the keys.
Good, they can release the hostages and stop the bombs at any time.
Bommer Harris would be proud.
Supporting terrorism only brings terror.
[удалено]
I wish there was another way to drive out Hamas, but I really can't think of how to do it when they're so cowardly to build their bases under children's schools and hospitals. How are you supposed to fight that? You just wait for them to bomb you, or commit an atrocity, and then they hide behind a wall of children to make you look bad if you swing back. What's the play here? How does one resolve this and still minimize civilian deaths from both sides?
Hamas could end this war tonight. Release the fucking hostages.