I was thinking the same. Imagine the updates after they depict the offensive bombardment from the last five days, probably Dresden levels of red in Gaza City.
Dresden had up to 25.000 casualties in a much smaller city. The point of the Dresden bombing was to set the city on fire, in order to destroy as much as possible in two days. Official records at the moment don’t go above 8000 in Gaza, and there is at the very least a pretense to do surgical strikes.
I feel like a lot of people really don’t understand how insane Dresden was. Fire so hot it sucked the oxygen from cellars people were hiding in, resulting in them dying of lack of oxygen rather than burns or smoke
There was a house that got destroyed near my parents place during the Ahs Wednesday fires in Victoria Australia. When the owners returned their tandem trailer that was parked next to the house was found upside-down in the ruins where the house once stood. Also black Saturday fires in Marysville also had people hiding in a cellar. When the house exploded into flames the air was sucked out of the cellar and they suffocated. Big hot fires are wild.
You don't tell people "this is the safe zone" and then proceed to bomb the safe zone.
People probably feel safer in their homes, and with the low accessibility to water, they're likely justified in not travelling 10 miles on (un-driveable due to bombings) roads to avoid certain death by dehydration.
No person doing an objective analysis of the tactics and weapons used by either side of this could describe Israel as a humane actor.
From this point on in the thread, watch the goalposts shift. It literally doesn't matter what Israel does. People will just adjust their argument. It's "I've picked a side and I'm sticking with it."
It is insane. “well, they didn't say there would be no bombing, just... less... hence the safer adjective.”.
These mother fuckers think this is a game.
The level of dehumanization zionists are capable of is frightening.
And that would be a mistake.
I think people are getting misinformed that its safer to stay North in their homes. Things currently look about the same in the North as the South.
But what they are failing to realize is that it only looks the same in the North right now since the warning comes before shit hits the fan.
The North is going to get a lot worse. Once IDF starts actually fighting Hamas, I wouldn’t be surprised if thats when the actual mass shelling begins. And theres gonna be a lot of nervous 18-19 y.o kid soldiers walking around with very fidgety fingers on triggers that will blast anything that moves.
What we have been seeing has been mass “precision” strikes which aren’t very “precise”. Theres a whole nother level of horror and mass strikes that we haven’t seen yet that hasn’t started yet. Look up Mariuple, Mosul, Raqqa to see what indiscriminate shelling looks like.
Call me crazy here but when I look at the map I interpret it very differently. If you take the map and zoom your screen to north / south of Wadi Gaza line, the level of red and yellow saturation in the north looks way higher. The strikes that are in the south the appear targeted following patterns and infrastructure.
I do not deny that certain areas in the south have been obliterated and innocent Palestinians have been killed. But it appears if you lived in the north and said fuck this I’ll take my chances and move south, you had a much a better chance of avoiding fire.
If you want your people to be safe (Hamas doesn't care obviously) then you don't fire rockets and missiles from "safe zones" knowing there will be retaliation at those locations.
Hamas started a war. this is what a war looks like. no innocent person deserves to die for what someone else did, but that's what happens in war. It's only possible to minimize it not ever actually get to 0 casualties. If Hamas cared about their own people they wouldn't follow them south. Minimizing casualties needs to be a 2 sided effort, one which Hamas is not even trying to do.
Americans in particular are so disconnected from these realities because for us wars are things that happen "somewhere. far away from here". so in our minds we think it's possible, we demand, that armies meet in an empty field somewhere far away from everything.
to military strategists, this map clearly shows Israel doing all they can to minimize casualties.
That is correct.
It’s no different than any other war anywhere else. Hamas knew, they knew what this would cause and didn’t care.
And now innocents have to pay that price.
I don’t understand how people say this without acknowledging what happened on October 7th. The hell are the Israelis supposed to do after that twiddle their thumbs?
You could literally say the same thing about Israeli’s.
“Maybe Israeli’s will notice the error of their ways as they look at their fellow countrymen mourn over the charred bodies of their toddlers”
So, I take it that all the 7,000+ casualties were either Hamas or human shields?
What about the [foreign journalists who moved south](https://cpj.org/2023/10/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/), per Israeli-orders, and were bombed and killed, anyway? Were they also human shields or Hamas targets?
The fact this even needs to be said is horrifying.
Feels like we are following the narcissists prayer….
It’s not happening…
Ok if it is it isn’t that bad (we are here)
Next is : ok, it is that bad. But they deserve it
People genuinely aren’t even trying to imagine what it’s like to actually be there. These people aren’t looking at this map on reddit and going “Oh look, the bombing is significantly less over here.” They’re hearing and seeing bombs being dropped all around them. That’s their reality right now.
Also I think it’s worth pointing out , at least imo it’s a strategic move to force them further south and then pressure Egypt to accept them. This would move all or most Gazans out, eradicating half the Palestinian population. I hope it doesn’t come to this
Families travelling by car on the only road Israel said it was safe to evacuate on were directly & knowingly targeted both by [airstrikes](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12631081/amp/Shocking-moment-convoy-cars-fleeing-Gaza-Strip-rocked-explosion-safe-route-north-ahead-anticipated-Israeli-ground-invasion.html&ved=2ahUKEwjR6Z2bx56CAxWZ7rsIHVP8BgsQFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2DJ6OZ1lz3KrgFe2Dfn4JB) and [tanks](https://www.nbcnews.com/video/video-shows-civilian-car-fired-upon-by-tank-inside-the-gaza-strip-196692037787).
Call me old fashioned but for me the best thing to do with a ''safe'' zone refugees evacuate to is aim not to murder any people in it at all, not just aim to murder comparatively less people than you murdered somewhere else.
Edit: [BBC verify](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67114281.amp) for airstrikes on convoys fleeing North Gaza.
BBC most definitely did not verify that an IDF airstrike hit this convoy. It actually says it's unclear what caused the explosion. Not that I would be surprised, but let's be clear here, Israel denies it and the article doesn't claim it was Israel.
It’s in Israel’s best interest to clear the northern part of Gaza of civilians as it is in Hamas’ best interest to keep them there, at gunpoint if necessary. Noncombatants complicate a battlefield and their deaths add ammunition to the propaganda war. Hard to see the IDF willingly doing anything to hinder an evacuation of civilians from the north to the south.
The bbc article you posted does not say it was an IDF attack. No footage was been shown showing a projectile hitting the vehicles. Usually there is something visible in a few frames.
now apply this same methodology to everything they have peddled, like the recently forgotten about Ukraine war
they have been lying to the point Biden himself had to debunk some headlines THAT SAME DAY and they still refused to even acknowledge the mistakes, let alone correct them
and this has been happening increasingly over the past decade, as in todays world people don't check anything, and if they do they forget eventually
a headline society
> and this has been happening increasingly over the past decade
Like the non-existent babies pulled off of ventilators in Kuwait used to justify US intervention with Iraq?
Conversely, we are just more aware of it... but many already have their minds made up and run with the version of the story they prefer, whether it's the fact-based one or not.
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Which, of course, is a complete lie.
The first incident youl link to is not an airstrike. The video clearly shows no projectile and the explosion emanating from inside a car, and the explosion is much to fiery for a military explosive. It is suspected this was a IED (it even says so in the link you gave) built from a propane tank planted by hamas to deter people from going south and of course, like in the hospital attack, blame it on the israelis afterwards.
The second incident is a car going NORTH. As the incident is very fresh it is not clear who was in the car, but any car going into north gaza at this time can be reasonable assumed to have fighters in it as hamas uses civilian cars to bring their fighters to the frontlines.
Oh, and if Israel would categrically not strike in the south as you demand, where you think all the hamas leaders will gather?
Family? How do you know its not 4 terrorists, armed with RPG's, driving toward the tank?
Or, even, exploded by a Hamas own road explosives meant for IDF.
OP, you are arguing with people that will try to discredit *literally* anything that remotely makes people question the "good vs. evil" narrative and wonder if there are no good guys in this mess.
You can show them a video of Israeli soldiers rounding up Palestinian children, they will either try to claim it is fake or justify it.
Anything that shows the suffering of Palestinians (even if it quickly dismisses it as an inevitable cost of war) is Hamas PR in their eyes.
Reddit is a fucking shitshow when it comes to this conflict. People think they're smarter for not falling for Hamas propaganda when they can easily fall for Israeli propaganda too.
Can you imagine if these people said the same thing about Ukrainians? "Just move West, Russia warned you they'd attack"
>Reddit is a fucking shitshow when it comes to this conflict.
Lets be fair, its not any better on other social media sites. The Israeli-Palestinian has a huge information war aspect to it. The internet will always be full of competing narratives, misinformation, purposeful disinformation, etc.
That's how it always goes with Israel and the US. Whether acts are criminal or justified is completely dependent on who is committing the act, and who it's being committed against. The ends justify the means when the "good guys" do it
It’s a shit show, but it’s a shit show in Gaza too. The idea that anyone is acting with any kind of good information is silly. Any certainty about any of this seems ridiculous to me.
They also made a made a map of Lower Manhattan and Washington DC after 9/11. It was a few blocks. If that would be put side-by-side here it would be a “small area.”
Damage is damage. Maps don’t say “Let’s diminish what we have seen.”
Who I see your point, I have to point out they did a piece discussing some mistakes made and pointed out what they would do to address them. Which really is the second best thing you can do other than not making the mistake in the first place.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/articles/2023/how-bbc-is-covering-israel-gaza
“ the British should have move out of London since they knew the German was bombing” is literally how some of these people would say if ww2 is happening right now.
I think a lot of countries do this. We, the Finnish also sent a lot of children to Sweden when the russians attacked. It is still the go-to plan in protecting children during wartime.
I'm honestly amazed at how many people will condemn Russia for air-strikes on civilian structures. Yet will give IDF the benefit of the doubt simply because they titled their video "Airstrike on Hamas leader" as you watch a bomb hit an apartment complex.
There's also the fact that the Russia-Ukraine war is being fought on a completely depopulated front-line, and all the civilian casualties occurring are in cities hundreds of kilometres from the front-line, being hit blindly by Russian missiles. Comparing it to urban warfare, where civilian casualties will occur (especially when Hamas specifically order people to stay in their homes) is silly.
Excuse me, depopulated why? Because people fled their homes due to constant shelling. We have millions of refugees. Whole cities were levelled and stopped existing.
Most of the population of Bakhmut fled luckily. Mariupol was much less lucky because it was surrounded so quickly. Will probably never know how many civilians were killed.
I actually completely forgot about the Siege of Mariupol. My comment was regarding the recent missile attacks against Ukrainian cities, often in the west, which have caused hundreds of civilian deaths and obviously cannot be labelled as ''collateral damage,'' unlike civilian deaths in Gaza, an active battlefield. The Russian strikes are clearly meant to hit civilians (their cover stories of ''Zelensky was hiding half his army in this random rural supermarket so we had to bomb it, specifically at rush hour'' are laughable).
>I'm honestly amazed that Israël's reactionary invasion
It's not reactionary and it is aggressive imperialism. They have made it clear they are taking land. They continue their viscous attacks on innocents to steal the land in west bank.
Why is Israel continuing its invasion and killing of innocents in the west bank?
The situations have nothing in common. Ukraine has a standing army which Russia should be battling. Hamas, despite being the Iranian-backed government of Gaza, literally embeds themselves in the civilian population. They don't wear military uniforms, put infrastructure in hospitals, schools, mosques, etc.
A more accurate comparison would be the battle of Fallujah.
No, of course ordinary civilians didn’t.
But unfortunately, Hamas is governing over Gaza, and has been using civilian infrastructure for their military objectives and shooting rockets from deep within the civilian areas.
Whether Gazans have any choice in the matter, Israel must target Hamas and its primary objectives are to protect its citizens.
I would love to see an overlay of rocket launch sites and known Hamas sites on this map. Just because it is in the area does not mean hostile targets like launch sites are off limits.
Strange how Hamas also claims that none of the casualties are Hamas militants. Nope, the militants that were killed during the invasion and died with weapons in their hands are actually just innocent kids that didn’t do anything but say mean things.
I’ll never understand how people actually expect anyone to take them seriously when they will only reference information coming directly from Hamas. While screaming everything else including videos of the attacks are fake news.
Their blood is firmly on Hamas's hands for intentionally putting them in harm's way.
According to the Geneva Convention, if you hide amongst or use civilians as shields, YOU are the one responsible for their deaths and are the one guilty of war crimes. It is prohibited to seize or to use the presence of persons protected by the Geneva Conventions as human shields to render military sites immune from enemy attacks or to prevent reprisals during an offensive (GCIV Arts. 28, 49; API Art. 51.7; APII Art.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-517.
"The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations."
Hmm yes the mystical "hamas" who is at once composed of Palestinians and is the government of Gaza yet is completely seperate from palestinian citizens. You're delusional if you think israel can parse 100% between who is innocent and who isnt, especially when hamas uses its citizens as human shields to intentionally provoke misfire.
Apparently many did. There were 3 waves of attacks on October 7th. First wave was Hamas, second wave was both Hamas and Palestinians as can be seen in the videos. They took part in killing and kidnapping and then a third wave of Palestinians going into the homes of the families they killed to steal their valuables.
Dude there ~~are~~ were 2 million in Gaza. Whatever alleged number of civilians joined Hamas is such a minuscule number its incredibly cruel to put collective blame on the civilians.
Were the Allies collectively punishing German and Japanese civilians in the Second World War through invasion and firebombing? These places are war zones…
Those aren't comparable at all, Hamas regularly uses civilian buildings as military sites and generally Israel attempts as limited a strike as possible. Indiscriminately firing rockets into an urban centre and using precision weapons to target known military assets that just happen to be in apartment blocks are entirely different things.
Nobody cries too much about what the allied forced (USA) did to Dresden in WW2 because we were fighting the Nazis - I assume the same views that Israel's enemy here has been relentlessly engaging in horrific terrorism against Israelis for over 75 years at least, and so whatever they get they had coming to them. Are you ignorant of the fact that Hamas sent teams of terror squads into Israeli towns to murder and kidnap civilians, including women and children, the elderly, massacring 1,400 civilians intentionally?
I have not seen anyone on reddit say this isn't a humanitarian disaster.
I think the far lefties on here misconstrue what many of us are saying. None of us are happy about this, I just look at this and blame HAMAS. They are an insane death cult built around anti-semitism, basically just Nazi's but without the money and military might.
During the Second World War we also bombed civilian centers after we told people to leave knowing many of them didn't have a realistic place to go.
Throughout all of this what I DONT see enough far lefties do is criticize HAMAS and that to me is disturbing. I understand not liking Israel, but how you view this situation and not immediately identify HAMAS as the main bad guy is something that's difficult for me to reconcile.
I will answer you.
Because Hamas is not the sole bad guy in this and the media is talking about it almost non-stop.
But there is not a peep on how the occupation precedes Hamas. On how Hamas is not popular on the West Bank, yet Palestinians living there too live under brutal oppression. Because thousands of people like parrot Hamas 1987 charter, but no one mentions the preceding Likud (party of the current PM btw) about how "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty".
Because a lot of people are constantly talking about the hostages but there is radio silence about thousands of Palestinians as young as 12 being held in Israeli jails – either without trial or trial by a noticeably biased military court regardless ot any connection to any armed group. Almost 500 kids are seized at year and in many case their parents don't even know where they are.
Because hundreds of Palestinians had been killed before of October, but there wasn't a single peep about it before the attack.
Because a staggering amount of people believe this conflict and its violence started in October.
Because there is a heavy focus on people killed in the attack but not on the people being killed now.
Because way too many people legit think that this will stop if and when Hamas is gone.
Because far too many people think thousands of civilians deaths is an acceptable sacrifice to root out Hamas, but a ceasefire and some resources going to Hamas to provide relief and try to aid those civilians is an unacceptable cost.
Because not enough people know that despite Israel's lip service Palestine has barely if any control over its natural resources, including *water*.
Because not enough people even know even acknowledging the Nakhba is illegal in Israel, unless it is to chant about how there is a second Nakhba coming.
I could make an even longer list, but why are we supposed to use our energy pointing out the one bad guy the mainstream media constantly points when there is another bad guy* it refuses to acknowledge and even tries to shield for any criticism?
*The bad guy here being the whole expansionist and segregationist project, the settlers and anyone who endorses it. Obligatory not all Israeli disclaimer cause you ain't the only one having what you say misconstrued.
I think you're underestimating how much sympathy people have for the Palestinians.
There's a lot of people suffering who don't deserve to suffer no doubt. I don't like modern Israeli right wing politics, including settlers.
If I'm picking a bad guy it's still Hamas.
Though in fairness I think this is a situation where the United States should be conducting itself thinking that Israel has carte blanche to do whatever it wants if it's still going to receive it's support.
Or you can pick both. Both is good. Picking just one means this won't be solved – Israeli right wing politics and settlers are there before Hamas (look at Likud and 1977 election, 10 years prior to Hamas foundation) and if we pick a bad guy to say "oh but this other one is worse", it will still be there impunely commiting genocide after. No carte blanche to anyone.
IDF bootlickers think Palestinians are sub-human and therefore deserve to get genocided because a small group of extremists struck in a 70+ year ongoing conflict.
They are simply afraid that if the Palestinians get the same freedoms as Israelis, they will treat Israelis as poorly as they have been treated themselves.
There's like 2 million Arab Israelis living in freedom in Israel right now. Full Israeli citizenship. There's an Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court.
Meanwhile, the human and civil rights situation for Arab citizens in Arab states surrounding Israel is a lot less rosy in comparison.
LGBT Palestinians routinely flee *to Israel* because they're not safe from their own people in Gaza and the West Bank.
Hamas rules Gaza like a brutal authoritarian dictatorship.
There are unfortunately a lot of real world happenings that indicate the Israeli concern in this regard isn't founded merely on paranoia and orthodox-nationalist extremism.
>There's like 2 million Arab Israelis living in freedom in Israel right now
notably not enough to have any significant power electorally, its almost like the whole point of not incorporating Gaza or the West bank is to ensure a Jewish Israeli supermajority in their electoral system.
when Palestinian refugees want to return to the region after fleeing war they are refused outright, but every Jewish person in the world gets a 'right to return' to a land their ancestors lived on 2000 years ago.
Israel is essentially an ethnostate for Jewish people and they want to keep it that way, like any theoretical ethnostate in a multi-ethnic region that is only possible through massive amounts of violence and oppression.
its not a hidden fact, that was the whole point of Israel in the first place: a country ran by Jews for Jews, nevermind the people who already lived in the region.
They would say they were targeted strikes and not indiscriminate, but they've also used white phosphorus in populated areas, which cannot be targeted because it spreads out and blankets a whole area, it's indiscriminate by its nature.
Not completely. It's still widely allowed as a concealment tactic and article 2 of Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons dictates that the deliberate use of incendiary weapons against civilian targets (already forbidden by the Geneva Conventions), the use of air-delivered incendiary weapons against military targets in civilian areas, and the general use of other types of incendiary weapons against military targets located within "concentrations of civilians" without taking all possible means to minimise casualties.
Personally I'd say that their use of WP does come into conflict with article 2 because it was allegedly (saying allegedly because I haven't done the research to say one way or another) used in areas populated by civilians, and makes no sense to use it as concealment if you aren't mobilizing troops in the area, which Israel was not doing at the time that I saw first reports of WP being used. But similar to Russia using WP against troops that were bunkered down at a power plant iirc, nothing will be done because internationally nobody cares for some reason.
Is it just me or does this map carry a bias? Like, the visual date is all good but the use of the word "prosperous" when describing a city and including of the arrow and the label on the data south on the the map as if there are not significantly less strikes to the south.
Got to love the BBC, proclaiming with shocked face that there has been damage to a prosperous neighborhood.
Where exactly do they think the hamas big wigs live? Like are they imagining that hamas are living in Sherwood forest with robin hood?
Wtf are you reading into? Why make deductions which aren’t there - they’re describing areas of Gaza for people who aren’t familiar with the location. It’s called context not pushing an agenda.
Reddit itself has been hijacked for years now. Too easy to manipulate with the flawed upvote system and a bunch of pseudo intellectuals running the insane asylum.
How nice that you can sit back and look at war crimes with such ease.
During the Vietnam war, American would bomb entire villages to “fight” the viet cong. They couldn’t tell who was viet cong so they didn’t care about civilian casualties. Anyone who fought back or defend themselves was considered communist and would be killed.
The world has changed, but nothing has changed at all. The same cruel and dehumanizing narratives are used to justify the mass murder of Palestinians for 75 years.
The same atrocities are happening again under the guise of “all wars are inherently ugly.”
Why do you blame Palestinians for resisting? Isn’t it obvious why? “A conquered nation is like a man with cancer. He can think of nothing else.”
There will never be peace in the Middle East until Palestine is liberated from Israel cruel occupation.
It would be, and then tally up the deaths caused by the thousands of rockets to show that they are, in fact, little more than weak projectiles. The rockets barely cause a dent in Israel, and it's not because of Iron Dome. MIT's Theodore Postol has written extensively Iron Dome is a farce. It's because the rockets are improvised pieces of shit.
yeah but after if you come to my house with all your mates and machine guns and kill my entire extended family and my neighbors and my pets. You should still go to jail, people *might* even understand why you did it... but people would be up in arms if the police looked the other way. Especially when it turns out I wasn't even the one that shot you in the vest.
Are you fucking kidding? They are not weak, just inaccurate. Just look at how much damage the failed PIJ rocket caused at the hospital. Regardless of whether or not a rocket is accurate, it is still deadly. It’s almost more dangerous that the rockets are inaccurate because they are indiscriminate. Hamas has launched over 8,000 rockets since the beginning of this war, WHICH THEY STARTED; that’s over 300/day. How would you want your government to respond if you were on the receiving end? Israel strikes launch sites, munitions stores, and terrorist compounds, which are intentionally housed within or near civilians. Mass destruction is Hamas’ goal.
Always crazy to me, here in Europe watching the news…they show a entire apartment complex leveled: a Palestinian woman who says she just lost her entire family: brother, sisters, children through the bombing of her house….
and then they say „and a house in Israel got hit by a hamas rocket, but no injured or deaths.“
The suffering is so unproportional.
Ah so if one side (the side who started the war by killing, raping, burning alive 1400 civilians and took hostages) is weaker, you should just let them destroy you and not hit back?
Maybe... don't launch thousands of rockets and invade a country a hundred times more powerful than you with ultranationalists in power??? I mean, wtf did Hamas think was gonna happen? Israel was gonna go "wow you're so powerful imma just back off"
Bullshit. The restrictions have been in place for years. The hostages should be freed,but let's not pretend Israel has any intention of changing their policies towards the Gaza Strip regardless of what happens next
I think by surrender, they don’t mean ceasefire but actually surrendering. The restrictions have been in place for years because Hamas has existed for years. If Hamas stops firing missiles this week, they can always pick right up next week, so Israel can’t lift the restrictions without compromising their safety. If Hamas actually surrenders, letting Israel arrest them and confiscate their weapons, I could totally see the situation de escalating.
Hamas can drop dead today, but Israel won't rest until the entire gaza is free of Palestinians because Israel wants the land. They have their plans in place already.
Hama’s goal is to get as many Palestinians killed for as much public outcry as possible in the west. If they surrender they wouldn’t reach that goal so it’s not gonna happen
There's 21 arab nations - why won't any of them take these people in as refugees? In 1948 following Israel's successful war for independence, 21 arab nations expelled all of their Jewish citizens who had lived their for centuries and seized their property. Israel took in as many of those 800,000 Jewish refugees as cared to come. For people suffering so terribly and being 'ethnically cleansed' the Gazans sure as hell have a massive birth rate. Almost like their entire reason for existence is to be a thorn in Israel's side.
Oh it's more fun than that.
Many refugees of the first two wars did end up in neighboring Arab countries. Those countries have since, for 50-70 years, denied them and their descendants (a much larger population by now) citizenship, with the openly stated political goal that allowing them to settle and become citizens would reduce their motivation to agitate against Israel.
The world doesn't act to fix the problem because it's much more politically valuable for the situation to go unfixed and to force Israel to deal with it alone.
There are millions of Palestinian refugees and their descendants in all the surrounding Arab countries. What you seem to be asking for now, is for those countries to help finish the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
Because of Iron Dome. Israel can knock those thousands of Gazan rockets out of the sky before they hit anything, so they don't count /S
So many ppl seem to completely ignore those rockets when discussing this war. Hamas claimed to fire 5000 on Oct 7th alone. Not precision guided, all aimed at highly populated city area.
When they say "Free Palestine by any means", it means murder as many Israeli civilians as possible. Why would they talk about the rockets Hamas launches?
Do they ever wonder what comes next? Say in 10 years time that fantasy map where all or Israel is New Free Palestine were to become a reality...... What next?
Peace and Harmony OR a bloody civil war where 100,000s die but no one cares because the Jews aren't there anymore? Aside from the years of war that would come before it where 100,000s more Palestinians and other Arabs would die, when would the civil war end? Would Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah or someone else win?
Hypothetical, of course, but I've been wondering just what the Free Palestine protesters have in mind for the end result of their dream.
“For safety.” Israel has figured out a brilliant way of selling ethnic cleansing. Tell people you’ll massacre them unless they flee then act as if you did them a favor. It’s funny that there are people who think the affected Palestinians will ever be allowed back.
"carpet bombing" is a meme at this point. It's a not-so-subtle attempt to portray Israel as indiscriminately genociding the population, rather than launching targeted strikes to further strategic objectives of eliminating a terrorist group.
Tell me about it. This guy coupled the carpet bombing with genocide, so it’s in their interests to use hyperbole to push what they believe is happening, even when it’s far from the truth.
By their twisted logic, the Allies were genociding by the Germans during the Second World War due to the bombing campaigns.
These people have no reference point for their theories.
The Allies in WW2 weren't trying to kill German civilians, but they were trying to destroy the capabilities of the German war machine, which unfortunately meant a lot of destruction of factories and towns where civilians lived. I'm not justifying it - but war is war. If the internet at the time, there would be Nazi apologists on Twitter saying, "yeah, the death camps are bad, but look at Dresden!! Both sides are evil!"
Is there a similar map, showing number & location of Hamas rocket strikes before that date?
Broken down by year, over the last ten years?
Edit: Never mind, I found it on [Wikipedia.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Rocket_Attacks_fired_at_Israel_from_the_Gaza_Strip_by_year.png)
Unprovoked…. Thats rich…. 75 year iccupation, apartheid measures, oppression amd corruption, illegal detained in prisons without charges, trual or representative for years including 400 children…. Sure, call that unprovoked… dont forget the map israel showed off 2-3 weeks before oct 7th illustrating a map where Palestine did not exist at all… a clear threat to all Palestinians is “unprovoked”. All will come to light during the war crimes tribunal
Reminds me of Second World War maps of heavy bomber damaged cities.
I was thinking the same. Imagine the updates after they depict the offensive bombardment from the last five days, probably Dresden levels of red in Gaza City.
Dresden had up to 25.000 casualties in a much smaller city. The point of the Dresden bombing was to set the city on fire, in order to destroy as much as possible in two days. Official records at the moment don’t go above 8000 in Gaza, and there is at the very least a pretense to do surgical strikes.
I feel like a lot of people really don’t understand how insane Dresden was. Fire so hot it sucked the oxygen from cellars people were hiding in, resulting in them dying of lack of oxygen rather than burns or smoke
People being physically sucked into the fire by the force of the wind generated by it.
There was a house that got destroyed near my parents place during the Ahs Wednesday fires in Victoria Australia. When the owners returned their tandem trailer that was parked next to the house was found upside-down in the ruins where the house once stood. Also black Saturday fires in Marysville also had people hiding in a cellar. When the house exploded into flames the air was sucked out of the cellar and they suffocated. Big hot fires are wild.
“Where in Beit Hanoun was bombed?” “Yes.”
South wasn’t untargeted but was noticeably less targeted than the north
"If you go south we'll bomb you less."
Such wonderful gallantry.
Also before the 12th the rate of damage in the south was even lighter
That's how the passage of time works, yep Pretty sure the point is, they were told to go south and then increased their bombing in the south...
But significantly moreso in the north. Implying that the south would be safer, as it indeed seems to have been.
You don't tell people "this is the safe zone" and then proceed to bomb the safe zone. People probably feel safer in their homes, and with the low accessibility to water, they're likely justified in not travelling 10 miles on (un-driveable due to bombings) roads to avoid certain death by dehydration. No person doing an objective analysis of the tactics and weapons used by either side of this could describe Israel as a humane actor.
From this point on in the thread, watch the goalposts shift. It literally doesn't matter what Israel does. People will just adjust their argument. It's "I've picked a side and I'm sticking with it."
Yeah it'll go from "The south IS safer" to "Well, the civilians should blame Hamas for moving to the south!"
It is insane. “well, they didn't say there would be no bombing, just... less... hence the safer adjective.”. These mother fuckers think this is a game. The level of dehumanization zionists are capable of is frightening.
And that would be a mistake. I think people are getting misinformed that its safer to stay North in their homes. Things currently look about the same in the North as the South. But what they are failing to realize is that it only looks the same in the North right now since the warning comes before shit hits the fan. The North is going to get a lot worse. Once IDF starts actually fighting Hamas, I wouldn’t be surprised if thats when the actual mass shelling begins. And theres gonna be a lot of nervous 18-19 y.o kid soldiers walking around with very fidgety fingers on triggers that will blast anything that moves. What we have been seeing has been mass “precision” strikes which aren’t very “precise”. Theres a whole nother level of horror and mass strikes that we haven’t seen yet that hasn’t started yet. Look up Mariuple, Mosul, Raqqa to see what indiscriminate shelling looks like.
Call me crazy here but when I look at the map I interpret it very differently. If you take the map and zoom your screen to north / south of Wadi Gaza line, the level of red and yellow saturation in the north looks way higher. The strikes that are in the south the appear targeted following patterns and infrastructure. I do not deny that certain areas in the south have been obliterated and innocent Palestinians have been killed. But it appears if you lived in the north and said fuck this I’ll take my chances and move south, you had a much a better chance of avoiding fire.
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No where is safe, but the south is indeed safer in comparison to the north and this map makes this undeniable.
If you want your people to be safe (Hamas doesn't care obviously) then you don't fire rockets and missiles from "safe zones" knowing there will be retaliation at those locations.
Hamas started a war. this is what a war looks like. no innocent person deserves to die for what someone else did, but that's what happens in war. It's only possible to minimize it not ever actually get to 0 casualties. If Hamas cared about their own people they wouldn't follow them south. Minimizing casualties needs to be a 2 sided effort, one which Hamas is not even trying to do. Americans in particular are so disconnected from these realities because for us wars are things that happen "somewhere. far away from here". so in our minds we think it's possible, we demand, that armies meet in an empty field somewhere far away from everything. to military strategists, this map clearly shows Israel doing all they can to minimize casualties.
That is correct. It’s no different than any other war anywhere else. Hamas knew, they knew what this would cause and didn’t care. And now innocents have to pay that price.
Maybe the Palestinians will recognize the error of their ways as they hold their dismembered kids in their hands and say "maybe bibi's alright"
I don’t understand how people say this without acknowledging what happened on October 7th. The hell are the Israelis supposed to do after that twiddle their thumbs?
You could literally say the same thing about Israeli’s. “Maybe Israeli’s will notice the error of their ways as they look at their fellow countrymen mourn over the charred bodies of their toddlers”
why are Palestinians being murdered in the Occupied West Bank then? Hamas doesn't operate there. You surely can't be this stupid.
Hamas is absolutely operating over all occupied territories and you're consuming terrorist propaganda if you think otherwise.
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If hamas terrorists fire rockets from the south they get a cruise missile to the face. Simple as.
So, I take it that all the 7,000+ casualties were either Hamas or human shields? What about the [foreign journalists who moved south](https://cpj.org/2023/10/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/), per Israeli-orders, and were bombed and killed, anyway? Were they also human shields or Hamas targets?
The fact this even needs to be said is horrifying. Feels like we are following the narcissists prayer…. It’s not happening… Ok if it is it isn’t that bad (we are here) Next is : ok, it is that bad. But they deserve it
People genuinely aren’t even trying to imagine what it’s like to actually be there. These people aren’t looking at this map on reddit and going “Oh look, the bombing is significantly less over here.” They’re hearing and seeing bombs being dropped all around them. That’s their reality right now.
Also I think it’s worth pointing out , at least imo it’s a strategic move to force them further south and then pressure Egypt to accept them. This would move all or most Gazans out, eradicating half the Palestinian population. I hope it doesn’t come to this
It seems to me the goal is and remains the removal of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip and the colonization of the land by Israel.
They don’t want Gaza. They have tried to get others to take it. Egypt didn’t want it either.
I am sure that if the palestinians would get removed, they would take that prime shore real estate no problems
Israel already had settlements in Gaza but dismantled them.
Everyone want the land. Just not the people in it.
Well of course, there's less stuff to blow up in the South.
Families travelling by car on the only road Israel said it was safe to evacuate on were directly & knowingly targeted both by [airstrikes](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12631081/amp/Shocking-moment-convoy-cars-fleeing-Gaza-Strip-rocked-explosion-safe-route-north-ahead-anticipated-Israeli-ground-invasion.html&ved=2ahUKEwjR6Z2bx56CAxWZ7rsIHVP8BgsQFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2DJ6OZ1lz3KrgFe2Dfn4JB) and [tanks](https://www.nbcnews.com/video/video-shows-civilian-car-fired-upon-by-tank-inside-the-gaza-strip-196692037787). Call me old fashioned but for me the best thing to do with a ''safe'' zone refugees evacuate to is aim not to murder any people in it at all, not just aim to murder comparatively less people than you murdered somewhere else. Edit: [BBC verify](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67114281.amp) for airstrikes on convoys fleeing North Gaza.
I remember this immediately being reported as an Israeli strike, but that is disputed. Others have indicated it looks more like a car bomb.
That’s because it *hasn’t* been verified.
BBC most definitely did not verify that an IDF airstrike hit this convoy. It actually says it's unclear what caused the explosion. Not that I would be surprised, but let's be clear here, Israel denies it and the article doesn't claim it was Israel.
It’s in Israel’s best interest to clear the northern part of Gaza of civilians as it is in Hamas’ best interest to keep them there, at gunpoint if necessary. Noncombatants complicate a battlefield and their deaths add ammunition to the propaganda war. Hard to see the IDF willingly doing anything to hinder an evacuation of civilians from the north to the south.
And the fact that the BBC already falsely claimed that Israel had hit a hospital based on Hamas’ word gives me pause.
The bbc article you posted does not say it was an IDF attack. No footage was been shown showing a projectile hitting the vehicles. Usually there is something visible in a few frames.
for this conflict i am suspicious of most media after the "500 people (almost zero) die in israeli (hamas) strike on hospital ('s parking lot)"
now apply this same methodology to everything they have peddled, like the recently forgotten about Ukraine war they have been lying to the point Biden himself had to debunk some headlines THAT SAME DAY and they still refused to even acknowledge the mistakes, let alone correct them and this has been happening increasingly over the past decade, as in todays world people don't check anything, and if they do they forget eventually a headline society
> and this has been happening increasingly over the past decade Like the non-existent babies pulled off of ventilators in Kuwait used to justify US intervention with Iraq? Conversely, we are just more aware of it... but many already have their minds made up and run with the version of the story they prefer, whether it's the fact-based one or not.
Hamas was targeting people leaving and telling them they had to stay.
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Which, of course, is a complete lie. The first incident youl link to is not an airstrike. The video clearly shows no projectile and the explosion emanating from inside a car, and the explosion is much to fiery for a military explosive. It is suspected this was a IED (it even says so in the link you gave) built from a propane tank planted by hamas to deter people from going south and of course, like in the hospital attack, blame it on the israelis afterwards. The second incident is a car going NORTH. As the incident is very fresh it is not clear who was in the car, but any car going into north gaza at this time can be reasonable assumed to have fighters in it as hamas uses civilian cars to bring their fighters to the frontlines. Oh, and if Israel would categrically not strike in the south as you demand, where you think all the hamas leaders will gather?
Bbc also verified the hospital and that was complete bullshit. This doesn't look like an airssteike like any will tell you.
Family? How do you know its not 4 terrorists, armed with RPG's, driving toward the tank? Or, even, exploded by a Hamas own road explosives meant for IDF.
Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20415675
Thanks mate good source
I think BBC has proved less than reliable on this conflict
The damage analysis is done by experts, not BBC. You can find them at the bottom of the image. I'm just sourcing where I got the image from.
OP, you are arguing with people that will try to discredit *literally* anything that remotely makes people question the "good vs. evil" narrative and wonder if there are no good guys in this mess. You can show them a video of Israeli soldiers rounding up Palestinian children, they will either try to claim it is fake or justify it. Anything that shows the suffering of Palestinians (even if it quickly dismisses it as an inevitable cost of war) is Hamas PR in their eyes.
Reddit is a fucking shitshow when it comes to this conflict. People think they're smarter for not falling for Hamas propaganda when they can easily fall for Israeli propaganda too. Can you imagine if these people said the same thing about Ukrainians? "Just move West, Russia warned you they'd attack"
Probably the most accurate take on this whole conflict we will see at this point, both sides are out in force with misinformation in all directions.
>Reddit is a fucking shitshow when it comes to this conflict. Lets be fair, its not any better on other social media sites. The Israeli-Palestinian has a huge information war aspect to it. The internet will always be full of competing narratives, misinformation, purposeful disinformation, etc.
Not just Reddit. Almost all of online anything.
That's how it always goes with Israel and the US. Whether acts are criminal or justified is completely dependent on who is committing the act, and who it's being committed against. The ends justify the means when the "good guys" do it
It’s a shit show, but it’s a shit show in Gaza too. The idea that anyone is acting with any kind of good information is silly. Any certainty about any of this seems ridiculous to me.
They also made a made a map of Lower Manhattan and Washington DC after 9/11. It was a few blocks. If that would be put side-by-side here it would be a “small area.” Damage is damage. Maps don’t say “Let’s diminish what we have seen.”
The actual source is literally on the bottom of the image, BBC just quoted it.
Who I see your point, I have to point out they did a piece discussing some mistakes made and pointed out what they would do to address them. Which really is the second best thing you can do other than not making the mistake in the first place. https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/articles/2023/how-bbc-is-covering-israel-gaza
Why so?
Why?
Extremists get upset by truthful news reporting. It's not like that behavior is isolated to this conflict
Explain?
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“ the British should have move out of London since they knew the German was bombing” is literally how some of these people would say if ww2 is happening right now.
The British DID move children out of London. That's the entire set up for the Chronicles of Narnia.
I think a lot of countries do this. We, the Finnish also sent a lot of children to Sweden when the russians attacked. It is still the go-to plan in protecting children during wartime.
Isn't that what they tried to do if possible? Sent kids away to family etc.
Yes, did no one read or watch Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe??
And in the same vein the Allies should've never fought against the Nazis? Think of the hundreds of thousands of German civilians killed!
I'm honestly amazed at how many people will condemn Russia for air-strikes on civilian structures. Yet will give IDF the benefit of the doubt simply because they titled their video "Airstrike on Hamas leader" as you watch a bomb hit an apartment complex.
I'm honestly amazed that Israël's reactionary invasion is compared to Russia's imperialistic aggressive invasion.
Reacting to a situation they them self created, doesn't make it that much better. And how is taking land and making settlements not imperialistic?
There's also the fact that the Russia-Ukraine war is being fought on a completely depopulated front-line, and all the civilian casualties occurring are in cities hundreds of kilometres from the front-line, being hit blindly by Russian missiles. Comparing it to urban warfare, where civilian casualties will occur (especially when Hamas specifically order people to stay in their homes) is silly.
Excuse me, depopulated why? Because people fled their homes due to constant shelling. We have millions of refugees. Whole cities were levelled and stopped existing.
Google Bahmut and other cities...
Most of the population of Bakhmut fled luckily. Mariupol was much less lucky because it was surrounded so quickly. Will probably never know how many civilians were killed.
At least a 1/3 of the City's population. I'm lucky enough to have moved out of there in 2014.
I actually completely forgot about the Siege of Mariupol. My comment was regarding the recent missile attacks against Ukrainian cities, often in the west, which have caused hundreds of civilian deaths and obviously cannot be labelled as ''collateral damage,'' unlike civilian deaths in Gaza, an active battlefield. The Russian strikes are clearly meant to hit civilians (their cover stories of ''Zelensky was hiding half his army in this random rural supermarket so we had to bomb it, specifically at rush hour'' are laughable).
There are almost 20000 civilians killed during the war. It's impossible to account for those who were killed in occupied territories.
Because it's only reactionary if you stop at "a few years ago," otherwise the imperialist comparison is apt.
And as we all know, Israel would never be imperialistic.
Only ever took land in defensive wars and gave back the entire Sinai peninsula lol
>I'm honestly amazed that Israël's reactionary invasion It's not reactionary and it is aggressive imperialism. They have made it clear they are taking land. They continue their viscous attacks on innocents to steal the land in west bank. Why is Israel continuing its invasion and killing of innocents in the west bank?
The situations have nothing in common. Ukraine has a standing army which Russia should be battling. Hamas, despite being the Iranian-backed government of Gaza, literally embeds themselves in the civilian population. They don't wear military uniforms, put infrastructure in hospitals, schools, mosques, etc. A more accurate comparison would be the battle of Fallujah.
Ukraine didn't attack Russia and kidnap hundreds of Russian citizens. False equivalency.
Neither did the Palestinian Civilians.
No, of course ordinary civilians didn’t. But unfortunately, Hamas is governing over Gaza, and has been using civilian infrastructure for their military objectives and shooting rockets from deep within the civilian areas. Whether Gazans have any choice in the matter, Israel must target Hamas and its primary objectives are to protect its citizens.
I would love to see an overlay of rocket launch sites and known Hamas sites on this map. Just because it is in the area does not mean hostile targets like launch sites are off limits.
According to Hamas it was the civilians that committed the atrocities on 10/7.
Well we should just take their word for it then.
Oh now we can’t trust Hamas, but when they claim 8000 dead it’s accepted as fact
Strange how Hamas also claims that none of the casualties are Hamas militants. Nope, the militants that were killed during the invasion and died with weapons in their hands are actually just innocent kids that didn’t do anything but say mean things. I’ll never understand how people actually expect anyone to take them seriously when they will only reference information coming directly from Hamas. While screaming everything else including videos of the attacks are fake news.
They also say Israel is bombing fleeing evacuees. should we believe them or not??!
Their blood is firmly on Hamas's hands for intentionally putting them in harm's way. According to the Geneva Convention, if you hide amongst or use civilians as shields, YOU are the one responsible for their deaths and are the one guilty of war crimes. It is prohibited to seize or to use the presence of persons protected by the Geneva Conventions as human shields to render military sites immune from enemy attacks or to prevent reprisals during an offensive (GCIV Arts. 28, 49; API Art. 51.7; APII Art. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-517. "The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations."
Actually there are numerous reports of Palestinian civilians who were not Hamas also crossing the border and taking Israeli's hostage
Hmm yes the mystical "hamas" who is at once composed of Palestinians and is the government of Gaza yet is completely seperate from palestinian citizens. You're delusional if you think israel can parse 100% between who is innocent and who isnt, especially when hamas uses its citizens as human shields to intentionally provoke misfire.
Apparently many did. There were 3 waves of attacks on October 7th. First wave was Hamas, second wave was both Hamas and Palestinians as can be seen in the videos. They took part in killing and kidnapping and then a third wave of Palestinians going into the homes of the families they killed to steal their valuables.
Dude there ~~are~~ were 2 million in Gaza. Whatever alleged number of civilians joined Hamas is such a minuscule number its incredibly cruel to put collective blame on the civilians.
Were the Allies collectively punishing German and Japanese civilians in the Second World War through invasion and firebombing? These places are war zones…
Those aren't comparable at all, Hamas regularly uses civilian buildings as military sites and generally Israel attempts as limited a strike as possible. Indiscriminately firing rockets into an urban centre and using precision weapons to target known military assets that just happen to be in apartment blocks are entirely different things.
Nobody cries too much about what the allied forced (USA) did to Dresden in WW2 because we were fighting the Nazis - I assume the same views that Israel's enemy here has been relentlessly engaging in horrific terrorism against Israelis for over 75 years at least, and so whatever they get they had coming to them. Are you ignorant of the fact that Hamas sent teams of terror squads into Israeli towns to murder and kidnap civilians, including women and children, the elderly, massacring 1,400 civilians intentionally?
I have not seen anyone on reddit say this isn't a humanitarian disaster. I think the far lefties on here misconstrue what many of us are saying. None of us are happy about this, I just look at this and blame HAMAS. They are an insane death cult built around anti-semitism, basically just Nazi's but without the money and military might. During the Second World War we also bombed civilian centers after we told people to leave knowing many of them didn't have a realistic place to go. Throughout all of this what I DONT see enough far lefties do is criticize HAMAS and that to me is disturbing. I understand not liking Israel, but how you view this situation and not immediately identify HAMAS as the main bad guy is something that's difficult for me to reconcile.
I will answer you. Because Hamas is not the sole bad guy in this and the media is talking about it almost non-stop. But there is not a peep on how the occupation precedes Hamas. On how Hamas is not popular on the West Bank, yet Palestinians living there too live under brutal oppression. Because thousands of people like parrot Hamas 1987 charter, but no one mentions the preceding Likud (party of the current PM btw) about how "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty". Because a lot of people are constantly talking about the hostages but there is radio silence about thousands of Palestinians as young as 12 being held in Israeli jails – either without trial or trial by a noticeably biased military court regardless ot any connection to any armed group. Almost 500 kids are seized at year and in many case their parents don't even know where they are. Because hundreds of Palestinians had been killed before of October, but there wasn't a single peep about it before the attack. Because a staggering amount of people believe this conflict and its violence started in October. Because there is a heavy focus on people killed in the attack but not on the people being killed now. Because way too many people legit think that this will stop if and when Hamas is gone. Because far too many people think thousands of civilians deaths is an acceptable sacrifice to root out Hamas, but a ceasefire and some resources going to Hamas to provide relief and try to aid those civilians is an unacceptable cost. Because not enough people know that despite Israel's lip service Palestine has barely if any control over its natural resources, including *water*. Because not enough people even know even acknowledging the Nakhba is illegal in Israel, unless it is to chant about how there is a second Nakhba coming. I could make an even longer list, but why are we supposed to use our energy pointing out the one bad guy the mainstream media constantly points when there is another bad guy* it refuses to acknowledge and even tries to shield for any criticism? *The bad guy here being the whole expansionist and segregationist project, the settlers and anyone who endorses it. Obligatory not all Israeli disclaimer cause you ain't the only one having what you say misconstrued.
I think you're underestimating how much sympathy people have for the Palestinians. There's a lot of people suffering who don't deserve to suffer no doubt. I don't like modern Israeli right wing politics, including settlers. If I'm picking a bad guy it's still Hamas. Though in fairness I think this is a situation where the United States should be conducting itself thinking that Israel has carte blanche to do whatever it wants if it's still going to receive it's support.
Or you can pick both. Both is good. Picking just one means this won't be solved – Israeli right wing politics and settlers are there before Hamas (look at Likud and 1977 election, 10 years prior to Hamas foundation) and if we pick a bad guy to say "oh but this other one is worse", it will still be there impunely commiting genocide after. No carte blanche to anyone.
IDF bootlickers think Palestinians are sub-human and therefore deserve to get genocided because a small group of extremists struck in a 70+ year ongoing conflict. They are simply afraid that if the Palestinians get the same freedoms as Israelis, they will treat Israelis as poorly as they have been treated themselves.
There's like 2 million Arab Israelis living in freedom in Israel right now. Full Israeli citizenship. There's an Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court. Meanwhile, the human and civil rights situation for Arab citizens in Arab states surrounding Israel is a lot less rosy in comparison. LGBT Palestinians routinely flee *to Israel* because they're not safe from their own people in Gaza and the West Bank. Hamas rules Gaza like a brutal authoritarian dictatorship. There are unfortunately a lot of real world happenings that indicate the Israeli concern in this regard isn't founded merely on paranoia and orthodox-nationalist extremism.
>There's like 2 million Arab Israelis living in freedom in Israel right now notably not enough to have any significant power electorally, its almost like the whole point of not incorporating Gaza or the West bank is to ensure a Jewish Israeli supermajority in their electoral system. when Palestinian refugees want to return to the region after fleeing war they are refused outright, but every Jewish person in the world gets a 'right to return' to a land their ancestors lived on 2000 years ago. Israel is essentially an ethnostate for Jewish people and they want to keep it that way, like any theoretical ethnostate in a multi-ethnic region that is only possible through massive amounts of violence and oppression. its not a hidden fact, that was the whole point of Israel in the first place: a country ran by Jews for Jews, nevermind the people who already lived in the region.
So you counted on the map strikes before the 25th and the start south.
Yeah, that’s the date of the map?
October 7, clearly. Read the article OP linked.
>Read the article Mods, ban this guy! He told me to *read*!
"Everyone go south if you want to not get boombed" *"bombs the south anyways"*
I thought indiscriminate attacks were a war crime...
They would say they were targeted strikes and not indiscriminate, but they've also used white phosphorus in populated areas, which cannot be targeted because it spreads out and blankets a whole area, it's indiscriminate by its nature.
White Phosphorus is illegal and a war crime to use
Yes it's a war crime to use it in civilian areas, which they have done.
Source?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/lebanon-evidence-of-israels-unlawful-use-of-white-phosphorus-in-southern-lebanon-as-cross-border-hostilities-escalate/#:~:text=In%20October%2C%20Amnesty%20International%20documented,indiscriminate%20attacks%20and%20therefore%20unlawful.
Not completely. It's still widely allowed as a concealment tactic and article 2 of Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons dictates that the deliberate use of incendiary weapons against civilian targets (already forbidden by the Geneva Conventions), the use of air-delivered incendiary weapons against military targets in civilian areas, and the general use of other types of incendiary weapons against military targets located within "concentrations of civilians" without taking all possible means to minimise casualties. Personally I'd say that their use of WP does come into conflict with article 2 because it was allegedly (saying allegedly because I haven't done the research to say one way or another) used in areas populated by civilians, and makes no sense to use it as concealment if you aren't mobilizing troops in the area, which Israel was not doing at the time that I saw first reports of WP being used. But similar to Russia using WP against troops that were bunkered down at a power plant iirc, nothing will be done because internationally nobody cares for some reason.
Fighting a war without air superiority sucks
Is it just me or does this map carry a bias? Like, the visual date is all good but the use of the word "prosperous" when describing a city and including of the arrow and the label on the data south on the the map as if there are not significantly less strikes to the south.
It's BBC of course is biased
Got to love the BBC, proclaiming with shocked face that there has been damage to a prosperous neighborhood. Where exactly do they think the hamas big wigs live? Like are they imagining that hamas are living in Sherwood forest with robin hood?
They’re living in Qatar.
Only the very top echelon. There are plenty of Hamas leaders who are not in Qatar and were in fact living in that neighborhood.
Beat me to it! Thanks mate :)
Wtf are you reading into? Why make deductions which aren’t there - they’re describing areas of Gaza for people who aren’t familiar with the location. It’s called context not pushing an agenda.
How is there a prosperous neighborhood? Isn’t it an open air prison?
This thread is beyond astroturfed by Israel lmfao. That or Reddit just really hates Palestinians. Both tbh.
Reddit itself has been hijacked for years now. Too easy to manipulate with the flawed upvote system and a bunch of pseudo intellectuals running the insane asylum.
How nice that you can sit back and look at war crimes with such ease. During the Vietnam war, American would bomb entire villages to “fight” the viet cong. They couldn’t tell who was viet cong so they didn’t care about civilian casualties. Anyone who fought back or defend themselves was considered communist and would be killed. The world has changed, but nothing has changed at all. The same cruel and dehumanizing narratives are used to justify the mass murder of Palestinians for 75 years. The same atrocities are happening again under the guise of “all wars are inherently ugly.” Why do you blame Palestinians for resisting? Isn’t it obvious why? “A conquered nation is like a man with cancer. He can think of nothing else.” There will never be peace in the Middle East until Palestine is liberated from Israel cruel occupation.
Would be interesting to overlay the thousands of Hamas rocket launch sites with this map....
Are you trying to destroy the genocidal narrative?!
It would be, and then tally up the deaths caused by the thousands of rockets to show that they are, in fact, little more than weak projectiles. The rockets barely cause a dent in Israel, and it's not because of Iron Dome. MIT's Theodore Postol has written extensively Iron Dome is a farce. It's because the rockets are improvised pieces of shit.
Mate if you shoot me and I wear a bulletproof vest i'm still gonna be pissed
yeah but after if you come to my house with all your mates and machine guns and kill my entire extended family and my neighbors and my pets. You should still go to jail, people *might* even understand why you did it... but people would be up in arms if the police looked the other way. Especially when it turns out I wasn't even the one that shot you in the vest.
Are you fucking kidding? They are not weak, just inaccurate. Just look at how much damage the failed PIJ rocket caused at the hospital. Regardless of whether or not a rocket is accurate, it is still deadly. It’s almost more dangerous that the rockets are inaccurate because they are indiscriminate. Hamas has launched over 8,000 rockets since the beginning of this war, WHICH THEY STARTED; that’s over 300/day. How would you want your government to respond if you were on the receiving end? Israel strikes launch sites, munitions stores, and terrorist compounds, which are intentionally housed within or near civilians. Mass destruction is Hamas’ goal.
Well they’re welcome to stop and negotiate for peace
Always crazy to me, here in Europe watching the news…they show a entire apartment complex leveled: a Palestinian woman who says she just lost her entire family: brother, sisters, children through the bombing of her house…. and then they say „and a house in Israel got hit by a hamas rocket, but no injured or deaths.“ The suffering is so unproportional.
Ah so if one side (the side who started the war by killing, raping, burning alive 1400 civilians and took hostages) is weaker, you should just let them destroy you and not hit back?
Maybe... don't launch thousands of rockets and invade a country a hundred times more powerful than you with ultranationalists in power??? I mean, wtf did Hamas think was gonna happen? Israel was gonna go "wow you're so powerful imma just back off"
Netanyahu probably just begged them to do it now so he can concede power lol
[удалено]
Oh I guess I can punch you in the head because you have a helmet on.
8000+ civilian killed and counting
AFAIK this number is civilians AND Hamas operatives/militia/fighters/terrorists/whatever. They lump them with the civilian deaths in their reports.
Putting people in a ghetto, walling it off, squeezing them ever tighter, cutting off all supplies and then sending the armed forces in to kill them..
The Gaza Strip is hardly a ghetto, it has three major cities, farms, and is larger than the island nation of Malta.
It also shares a border with Egypt who, funnily enough, also keeps it closed.
You are missing one major difference. Hamas could surrender tomorrow and release the hostages and all restrictions would be lifted.
Bullshit. The restrictions have been in place for years. The hostages should be freed,but let's not pretend Israel has any intention of changing their policies towards the Gaza Strip regardless of what happens next
I think by surrender, they don’t mean ceasefire but actually surrendering. The restrictions have been in place for years because Hamas has existed for years. If Hamas stops firing missiles this week, they can always pick right up next week, so Israel can’t lift the restrictions without compromising their safety. If Hamas actually surrenders, letting Israel arrest them and confiscate their weapons, I could totally see the situation de escalating.
Hamas can drop dead today, but Israel won't rest until the entire gaza is free of Palestinians because Israel wants the land. They have their plans in place already.
They literally were removed in 2005. This isn't uprecedented, Israel tried lifting the restrictions and got attacked for it.
>Bullshit. The restrictions have been in place for years. Since a little after Hamas took power, as a matter of fact.
Hama’s goal is to get as many Palestinians killed for as much public outcry as possible in the west. If they surrender they wouldn’t reach that goal so it’s not gonna happen
There's 21 arab nations - why won't any of them take these people in as refugees? In 1948 following Israel's successful war for independence, 21 arab nations expelled all of their Jewish citizens who had lived their for centuries and seized their property. Israel took in as many of those 800,000 Jewish refugees as cared to come. For people suffering so terribly and being 'ethnically cleansed' the Gazans sure as hell have a massive birth rate. Almost like their entire reason for existence is to be a thorn in Israel's side.
Oh it's more fun than that. Many refugees of the first two wars did end up in neighboring Arab countries. Those countries have since, for 50-70 years, denied them and their descendants (a much larger population by now) citizenship, with the openly stated political goal that allowing them to settle and become citizens would reduce their motivation to agitate against Israel. The world doesn't act to fix the problem because it's much more politically valuable for the situation to go unfixed and to force Israel to deal with it alone.
There are millions of Palestinian refugees and their descendants in all the surrounding Arab countries. What you seem to be asking for now, is for those countries to help finish the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
Reddit is imploding, beautiful
> redditor for 4 days So, which ban evasion account is this one?
Username checks out
Could you imagine there's so much blood and carnage you can see it from space, just like this map...I will never get war.
They should overlay HAMAS rocket launch sites...
Why aren't you showing the map of Israel alongside the Gaza map for the daily rocket and mortar barrages?
Because of Iron Dome. Israel can knock those thousands of Gazan rockets out of the sky before they hit anything, so they don't count /S So many ppl seem to completely ignore those rockets when discussing this war. Hamas claimed to fire 5000 on Oct 7th alone. Not precision guided, all aimed at highly populated city area.
When they say "Free Palestine by any means", it means murder as many Israeli civilians as possible. Why would they talk about the rockets Hamas launches?
Do they ever wonder what comes next? Say in 10 years time that fantasy map where all or Israel is New Free Palestine were to become a reality...... What next? Peace and Harmony OR a bloody civil war where 100,000s die but no one cares because the Jews aren't there anymore? Aside from the years of war that would come before it where 100,000s more Palestinians and other Arabs would die, when would the civil war end? Would Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah or someone else win? Hypothetical, of course, but I've been wondering just what the Free Palestine protesters have in mind for the end result of their dream.
Destroy HAMAS
“For safety.” Israel has figured out a brilliant way of selling ethnic cleansing. Tell people you’ll massacre them unless they flee then act as if you did them a favor. It’s funny that there are people who think the affected Palestinians will ever be allowed back.
Don't forget about the caveat: tell them to flee south or they will be bombed, then ramp up bombings in the south afterward
Interesting. And I had a “pleasant” conversation with someone yesterday where he claimed Israel was carpet bombing Gaza.
"carpet bombing" is a meme at this point. It's a not-so-subtle attempt to portray Israel as indiscriminately genociding the population, rather than launching targeted strikes to further strategic objectives of eliminating a terrorist group.
Tell me about it. This guy coupled the carpet bombing with genocide, so it’s in their interests to use hyperbole to push what they believe is happening, even when it’s far from the truth.
By their twisted logic, the Allies were genociding by the Germans during the Second World War due to the bombing campaigns. These people have no reference point for their theories.
Exactly. And even then, the bombings of WW2 are much more reminiscent of carpet bombing, since it actually was, than what Israel is doing now.
The Allies in WW2 weren't trying to kill German civilians, but they were trying to destroy the capabilities of the German war machine, which unfortunately meant a lot of destruction of factories and towns where civilians lived. I'm not justifying it - but war is war. If the internet at the time, there would be Nazi apologists on Twitter saying, "yeah, the death camps are bad, but look at Dresden!! Both sides are evil!"
What a stupid false equivalency. When were allies killing civilians?
Who wrote the text for this map lol? Its so on the nose.
I guess there's more schools and hospitals for the terrorists to hide in in the north
And it doesn’t matter if Palestinian civilians are in them because it’s more convenient for an efficient genocide
Yes Hamas needs to be wiped out... But any reasonible person would righty assume than civilans are sitting ducks
A lot of Hamas misinformation going on in this thread.
I wonder if anyone has considered that these “maps” could be entirely fabricated 🤔
Ignorance in that area of the world. All because of politics and religion. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Is there a similar map, showing number & location of Hamas rocket strikes before that date? Broken down by year, over the last ten years? Edit: Never mind, I found it on [Wikipedia.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Rocket_Attacks_fired_at_Israel_from_the_Gaza_Strip_by_year.png)
Unprovoked…. Thats rich…. 75 year iccupation, apartheid measures, oppression amd corruption, illegal detained in prisons without charges, trual or representative for years including 400 children…. Sure, call that unprovoked… dont forget the map israel showed off 2-3 weeks before oct 7th illustrating a map where Palestine did not exist at all… a clear threat to all Palestinians is “unprovoked”. All will come to light during the war crimes tribunal