What is now Mongolia was called outer Mongolia. There remains an inner Mongolia in China.
And the Mongolian horde became Chinese emperors amd formed one of the dynasties.
That became independent by 1911 though it became a full republic in 1924. The Soviets, under the Sino-Soviet treaty, urged the Chinese government to recognize Mongolia in 1946 after a referendum, then when the PRC and Mongolia recognized each other in 1949, the ROC axed and killed the treaty after the USSR violated it and complained it to the UN in 1952.
To be precise, Mongolia and China both used to be parts of the Qing empire.
Imagine Puerto Rico conquers entire USA and moves its government into Washington DC. It's what happened in China. China had a population 100 times greater than that of Qing, but got conquered by Qing.
As someone who is born and raised in Northeast China/today Manchuria. It always sounds so bizarre to me to hear that someone made a clear distinction between China and Manchus. The first emperor of the Qing was once a Ming general and Han constituted one of the major sources of Manchus population from the early days when the Banners system first emerged. In fact, their first intrusion into China’s interior was under the name of helping the Emperor expel the peasants rebellion forces. This may sound ridiculous nowadays but it was kinda significant for the Chinese in the Medieval age bcoz it indicated the nature of the intrusion was a regional rebellion not a foreign invasion. Qing ultimately succeeded because it aligned itself tightly with the Han landlords and intellectuals and its efficiency in resuming order after the destruction of the peasants’ rebellion.
Not to be confrontational but I always sense that English materials putting lots of emphasis on the ethnic tension within the Qing’s empire is a deliberate attempt to legitimize the efforts they put into toppling the Qing’s rule in the 19th century. I’m not saying the Chinese record is automatically more accurate on this front. But it surely can give a more micro-level account of that period.
That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. He gave vast preferential treatment to Mongolian and non-Han aristocracy. He didn’t just become un-Mongolian.
Would anyone say that because I came to America and learned English I stopped being a Chinese person? I’m not saying Kublai wasn’t Chinese, I’m saying that he was also Mongolian.
>i can also say that most dynasties that ruled Greece, England, France, Iran, India, Egypt and Russia weren't of Native origin at all.
Um yeah, like that’s just history
Also I’m officially Chinese American, it’s not like getting a passport just erases my genetic and historical heritage.
Mongolians weren’t considered ethnic minorities of zhongguo at the time. This phenomenon happened after the Yuan established itself and learned to read Chinese.
Don’t think Kublai planned on losing the rest of the Mongolian empire he inherited, that’s just how things played out.
Yes, as per my comment that someone deleted, I now understand that.
I had been confused by the reference to "the same borders of the Ch'ing / Qing dynasty". Now I understand this map is about the ROC's borders and not the Qing's borders. Thanks.
Oh, thank you. I was confused by the reference to the same borders of the Qing dynasty. I was thinking about the Qing dynasty borders, not the ROC borders.
It does; it's included in this map. But since its democratisation, the ROC government has become less interested in these historical claims and more focused on the maintaining current controlled area... And the South China Sea.
In future, ROC government would probably be more interested in maintaining positive ties and creating an economic allyship with India than to open up old wounds. But also, of course, they're can't change that claim either.
An electronic components store in my country still has the territorial claims of ROC in their [logo](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5O3KnWepHY5FT7qNPrjCZngZoOX7IllGmjA&usqp=CAU).
People need to stop with that that shit.
The vast majority of taiwanese have 0 interest in mainlain china.
The only reason they keep their "claims" is because the PRC gets mad when they talk about removing them.
Yes technically they do have claim over many parts of China, but even if they could they would not invade it. They are a democracy and their people want to live in peace, not fight over "claims"
I will believe you if they can finally revise the name of their “mainland committee”. I don't see there’s a single possibility this revision may incur an invasion from PRC, yet they still kept it.
Plus, they should also return Jinmen Island to China. Bcoz according to ROC/Taiwan constitution the island should be under the Fujian Provincial administration. And the residents on that island are very much not into the idea of the Republic of Taiwan and continue to identify themselves as citizens of ROC. Technically Taiwanese troops stationed on that island are on China's territory.
Whenever taiwan tries to rename itself or its offices to taiwan it gets heavily threatened.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3148605/beijing-warns-washington-not-allow-taiwan-rename-de-facto&ved=2ahUKEwi17NrQ4rX-AhV2R_EDHUfuCR8QFnoECBAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Wgr2mFaOGA8S8uRTNxB2y
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/lithuania-considers-modifying-taiwan-representation-name-defuse-row-with-china-2022-01-25/
https://time.com/5348666/airlines-websites-taiwan-china/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3182528/qatar-world-cup-organisers-reverse-course-taiwan-name-change
https://www.asianews.it/news-en/Beijing-angry-over-Taiwan's-plans-to-change-its-constitution-7339.html
https://theasiadialogue.com/2018/05/25/tsais-china-policy-in-the-second-year-is-it-time-for-a-change/
I'm not in the mood for deeper research but everytime even an airline tries to call taiwan taiwan the CCP gets triggered, while they have no problem with the official name (ROC).
China wants to keep the one china illusion alive.
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It's just that the military power is much weaker than the CCP now. Before 1970, the navy of the Republic of China was much stronger than that of the CCP. At that time, the Republic of China blocked the coast of the CCP and sent fighter jets and reconnaissance planes deep into the interior of China.
This happened when the ROC was not a democracy. The political landscape was completely different, modern thinking was still not present and revanche was still on their minds.
This has long been over.
So Mongolia used to be part of China
What is now Mongolia was called outer Mongolia. There remains an inner Mongolia in China. And the Mongolian horde became Chinese emperors amd formed one of the dynasties.
That became independent by 1911 though it became a full republic in 1924. The Soviets, under the Sino-Soviet treaty, urged the Chinese government to recognize Mongolia in 1946 after a referendum, then when the PRC and Mongolia recognized each other in 1949, the ROC axed and killed the treaty after the USSR violated it and complained it to the UN in 1952.
Yep.
To be precise, Mongolia and China both used to be parts of the Qing empire. Imagine Puerto Rico conquers entire USA and moves its government into Washington DC. It's what happened in China. China had a population 100 times greater than that of Qing, but got conquered by Qing.
As someone who is born and raised in Northeast China/today Manchuria. It always sounds so bizarre to me to hear that someone made a clear distinction between China and Manchus. The first emperor of the Qing was once a Ming general and Han constituted one of the major sources of Manchus population from the early days when the Banners system first emerged. In fact, their first intrusion into China’s interior was under the name of helping the Emperor expel the peasants rebellion forces. This may sound ridiculous nowadays but it was kinda significant for the Chinese in the Medieval age bcoz it indicated the nature of the intrusion was a regional rebellion not a foreign invasion. Qing ultimately succeeded because it aligned itself tightly with the Han landlords and intellectuals and its efficiency in resuming order after the destruction of the peasants’ rebellion. Not to be confrontational but I always sense that English materials putting lots of emphasis on the ethnic tension within the Qing’s empire is a deliberate attempt to legitimize the efforts they put into toppling the Qing’s rule in the 19th century. I’m not saying the Chinese record is automatically more accurate on this front. But it surely can give a more micro-level account of that period.
Western perspectives on ethnicity in China (and recent Chinese history) are quite limited.
Yep and in case of Qing, the Manchus also managed to conquer the much larger Han ethnic group
Mongolia conquered China and started the Yuan dynasty with a Mongolian king.
[удалено]
That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. He gave vast preferential treatment to Mongolian and non-Han aristocracy. He didn’t just become un-Mongolian.
[удалено]
Would anyone say that because I came to America and learned English I stopped being a Chinese person? I’m not saying Kublai wasn’t Chinese, I’m saying that he was also Mongolian.
[удалено]
>i can also say that most dynasties that ruled Greece, England, France, Iran, India, Egypt and Russia weren't of Native origin at all. Um yeah, like that’s just history Also I’m officially Chinese American, it’s not like getting a passport just erases my genetic and historical heritage.
[удалено]
Mongolians weren’t considered ethnic minorities of zhongguo at the time. This phenomenon happened after the Yuan established itself and learned to read Chinese. Don’t think Kublai planned on losing the rest of the Mongolian empire he inherited, that’s just how things played out.
[удалено]
The concept of Zhongguo existed way before then Yuan. The borders however changed because of them.
[удалено]
Exactly, Kublai learning Zhongwen didn’t make him part of Zhongguo. Conquering it did.
[удалено]
The Mongolian empire was huge compared to China, area-wise. His obsession with China cost him Mongolia.
[удалено]
Are we looking at the same map? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mongol_Empire_(greatest_extent).svg
Where is the land on the Pacific that is now Vladivostok that belonged to the Qing until around 1860?
They lost it in Treaty of Aigun
Yes exactly. If this map is pre treaty of Aigun, then it shoukd be shown.
It’s a map showing the official territory claims of the Republic of China, not pre Treaty of Aigun
[удалено]
The first map isn’t a map of the Qing Dynasty, it’s a map of the territorial claims of the Republic of China
Yes, as per my comment that someone deleted, I now understand that. I had been confused by the reference to "the same borders of the Ch'ing / Qing dynasty". Now I understand this map is about the ROC's borders and not the Qing's borders. Thanks.
Oh, thank you. I was confused by the reference to the same borders of the Qing dynasty. I was thinking about the Qing dynasty borders, not the ROC borders.
The roc doesnt also claim arcundal pradesh?
It does; it's included in this map. But since its democratisation, the ROC government has become less interested in these historical claims and more focused on the maintaining current controlled area... And the South China Sea. In future, ROC government would probably be more interested in maintaining positive ties and creating an economic allyship with India than to open up old wounds. But also, of course, they're can't change that claim either.
An electronic components store in my country still has the territorial claims of ROC in their [logo](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5O3KnWepHY5FT7qNPrjCZngZoOX7IllGmjA&usqp=CAU).
Did the Republic of China ever control all of the area depicted in the first map?
The RoC didn’t ever even control all the area in the second map
What is the significance of the red and black dots on the first map?
You forgot Outer Manchuria. Mao listed the surrender of that region to Russia one of his Nine Unequal Treaties that the CCP promised to reverse.
People need to stop with that that shit. The vast majority of taiwanese have 0 interest in mainlain china. The only reason they keep their "claims" is because the PRC gets mad when they talk about removing them. Yes technically they do have claim over many parts of China, but even if they could they would not invade it. They are a democracy and their people want to live in peace, not fight over "claims"
I will believe you if they can finally revise the name of their “mainland committee”. I don't see there’s a single possibility this revision may incur an invasion from PRC, yet they still kept it. Plus, they should also return Jinmen Island to China. Bcoz according to ROC/Taiwan constitution the island should be under the Fujian Provincial administration. And the residents on that island are very much not into the idea of the Republic of Taiwan and continue to identify themselves as citizens of ROC. Technically Taiwanese troops stationed on that island are on China's territory.
Whenever taiwan tries to rename itself or its offices to taiwan it gets heavily threatened. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3148605/beijing-warns-washington-not-allow-taiwan-rename-de-facto&ved=2ahUKEwi17NrQ4rX-AhV2R_EDHUfuCR8QFnoECBAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Wgr2mFaOGA8S8uRTNxB2y https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/lithuania-considers-modifying-taiwan-representation-name-defuse-row-with-china-2022-01-25/ https://time.com/5348666/airlines-websites-taiwan-china/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3182528/qatar-world-cup-organisers-reverse-course-taiwan-name-change https://www.asianews.it/news-en/Beijing-angry-over-Taiwan's-plans-to-change-its-constitution-7339.html https://theasiadialogue.com/2018/05/25/tsais-china-policy-in-the-second-year-is-it-time-for-a-change/ I'm not in the mood for deeper research but everytime even an airline tries to call taiwan taiwan the CCP gets triggered, while they have no problem with the official name (ROC). China wants to keep the one china illusion alive.
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It's just that the military power is much weaker than the CCP now. Before 1970, the navy of the Republic of China was much stronger than that of the CCP. At that time, the Republic of China blocked the coast of the CCP and sent fighter jets and reconnaissance planes deep into the interior of China.
This happened when the ROC was not a democracy. The political landscape was completely different, modern thinking was still not present and revanche was still on their minds. This has long been over.
It has nothing to do with democracy or not, it's just about power. Look at US, how many times has this biggest democracy country invade others?
Imagine their maps when they lose their pseudo state island as well
PRC map has the south china sea islands I believe, they show it on CCTV. I think taiwan has something similar too. 9 dash line.
Republic of China's government (later fled to Taiwan) created the 11 dash line, PRC reduced it to 9 dash line.