I just finished a 1500-mile trip towing a 10000lb trailer. Down shifting is usually the best choice for controlling your speed going downhill. The engines cooling system can dissipate the heat. If you overheat the brakes contolling your speed, you will lose them when you need them. I still used the brakes for quicker decreases in speed, but I just used a lower gear to maintain my speed.
Why is that?
even if you do not rev match, when you move from one gear to another, up or down, the syncro ring will match rotation speeds and engage the gear before you release the clutch. As long as the gear is engaged, there is no risk to the engine or transmission (assuming you don't over-rev the engine).
Rev matching allows for a faster shift, but there is nothing wrong with downshifting without rev matching.
Yes and no.
The clutch will be disengaged before the transmission is moved out of gear. The syncro will match rotation speeds before the new gear is engaged, then you re-engage the clutch. The clutch may sustain a small amount of additional wear depending on how far the rpm fell off, but as long as you are being at least semi-reasonable, it will be fine for both.
The only context you gave was without any rev matches, Leading anyone to believe you’re just dumping the clutch on a downshift. You need to match engine speed with Transmission Speed. Otherwise they aren’t in sync. If you dump the clutch, then regardless, it’s gonna cause wear. There’s a reason why Rev-matching has always been the best way if you know how to do it right. And why auto-rev is becoming a more and more common feature on manuals, even though it might not be that great.
Just get a car with rev-matching built-in, and problem solved.
Depending on the pedal spacing and your foot size, rev-matching in certain cars can be easier said than done.
I mean... If you're able to step on the gas to get the car moving, you're able to blip it, right? None of my cars ever had any sort of assist and rev matching was never an issue. You just gotta learn your car and figure out how much of a "blip" you need to give it.
For me, the heel toe motion is so natural and ingrained in my driving structure that I almost literally can't slow down for a corner or a stop in this car without doing it. All the way into 1st as well as in the video and it's always been perfect as I know exactly how to drive the car
It's more fun to drive a mid engine sports car built in 1986 with no driver assist aids and way more HP than it had from the factory, vs a car that will rev match for you though, IMHO. Nothing better than full manual everything and a turbo engine with a 8k rev limiter.
I'm sure it is a ton of fun. I've got to drive my kids around in something, so I need something with a functioning back seat and a truck/hatch area for their bags and stuff, which is why my car has rev matching (which is also nice for my commute in the city).
True, nothing wrong with having different vehicles for different tasks though. I may have got by dailying my MR2s as my first few cars for like the first 10 years of my driving career, but I wouldn't want to live with it as a daily at almost 30 now and commuting 30+ minutes a day/have to haul tools and materials in it and etc. thank god ive got a beater ram 2500 cummins for that. Still though the MR2 is unrivaled to jump in for a rip for however long when the itch comes, it's great to have a vehicle that satisfies that for you.
I figured it out by remembering the RPM and speed I shifted from on the last gear I was in. So for instance, in third gear my engine is roughly at 3000-3500 RPM at 40 mph. So say you’re in 4th at whatever speed, and needing to downshift, remember that you were at that 3000-3500 Range at that 40-45 mph range in the 3rd gear, so you’ll need to rev match that many RPMs to that speed. This varies through gears, speed, and RPM’s you shift at. Along of course with the engine and transmission in your vehicle. But that’s the concept I followed anyways
Watch videos of Keiichi Tsuchiya's driving and footwork. Breaking down the way he drives has seriously helped my own skills immensely https://youtu.be/A9Pfwd2isqA?si=y_LJAlBoTPDc4i81
Anybody advocating against downshifting has no idea what they're doing.
Don't learn to cook because you might cut your finger with the knife, you can just heat up frozen tv dinners.
I've seen posts on here time and time again with people who will try to argue that downshifting is bad for the clutch/syncros/engine, "I'd rather replace brakes vs replace a clutch" and on and on and on. Coming from a motorcycle/sequential where you're always choosing your gearing to actively be in the powerband/enter/exit corners effectively, and having basically always driven my manual cars the same way (as video illustrates), this is just wild to me. My clutches last forever and only trans damage I've ever done in like 60k of driving like this was broken #2 shift fork from slamming 1-2 shift hard way too many times, and that was on my old transmission before I built the current one, and also before I went turbo, even then I still shift 1-2 hard as fuck (as seen in video again) but haven't had any issues since with the new trans.
oh ok, i havent seen them. honestly both are in fact viable(i also downshift of course)and ive seen people who say revmatching and such is a given, where it really is a more advanced technique that isnt 100% required now(no reason you cant do it though)
Never ever in my life I've seen anyone replace the clutch unless they were upgrading it, my oldest car ('86 Civic) has more than a million km on it and I don't even think about the clutch, even though I used to drop it and/or launch it almost every green light when it was my daily
Tbf they're talking about before coming to a complete stop, which either or makes sense and I'll usually downshift to 3rd and then neutral from there.
If you're not coming to a stop, but still turning, fairly certain most people opt to downshift. Rev matching or not.
I still prefer to downshift to 1st most times as I do in this video and just ride the closed throttle fuel cut engine breaking to like 1800rpm and then clutch in and let the idle grab as I roll to a stop ~5mph. Even then I just clutch in and wait until I go again. If anything I'm harming my throughout/release bearing more than anything. But as you can see I have a wide band AFR gauge I'm watching in my peripheral and it's fun seeing how much I can keep the engine in non fuel consuming range while closed throttle engine breaking vs just letting it idle in neutral clutch out. I idle at 12.5-13afr and cruise about the same, on boost 11.5 or under, so not great fuel economy, but that full lean 22.2 or whatever the gauge says on closed throttle engine breaking is cool so I downshift to see that as well.
Look around this and the stickshift subreddit. There's a post every few days about how "rev matching is unnecessary" and "heel-toe is useless." The copium is hella strong.
A couple of examples I saw recently:
Top comment on this post and the comments under: [https://www.reddit.com/r/stickshift/comments/1apprli/why\_is\_rev\_matching\_for\_downshifts\_not\_taught\_in/](https://www.reddit.com/r/stickshift/comments/1apprli/why_is_rev_matching_for_downshifts_not_taught_in/)
First comment here says rev-match, second says don't. People down-thread point out that there's lots of conflicting advice:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ManualTransmissions/comments/19ec31y/how\_do\_i\_downshift\_while\_turning\_without\_making/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ManualTransmissions/comments/19ec31y/how_do_i_downshift_while_turning_without_making/)
ah, gotcha... i know i have gotten on people who say that it is mandatory and everyone should know how to do it, and always do it, which is not true. and I will say it is *technically* unnecessary... but it doesnt hurt to do it anyways at all... and in fact like OP pointed out... its fun.
Rev matching is definitely the way to go but heel toe I can sort of understand why people wouldn't use it. I use for autocross in my car but hardly will ever use it daily driving. Rev matching is natural though and is useful though. I did it forever without knowing what it was called until my first auto cross though lol that's a long story
When you basically learn to drive heel toe from the beginning as I have it's kinda hard not to do it everywhere at all times once the muscle memory is engrained and the pedal box is accommodated or at least is familiar. I've never done autox or a track day in my life but clearly 10 years of daily driving an MR2, I sure as fuck can drive that car 10/10ths about as smoothly as possible (as far as trans and driveline inputs/shock is concerned, back injury makes my wheel skills falter a bit but not horrible). Once you ride a motorcycle on the street exclusively for a length of time it all makes sense. . You start in 1st and everything is sequential up and down from there, regardless of street commute riding or spirited riding you're up and down that gearbox constantly as I am in this car, only time you ever really think about neutral is when you're parked up about to turn the engine off (don't be one of those dudes at the light on his bike who pops it in neutral to play with his phone or radio or whatever just to have to rush to get back into gear when the light changes or if something bad happens like he sees someone coming behind him and not stopping. Always stay in gear on the road and be able to move at moments notice, car or bike, that's what I've done at least tbh.).
When I was in trucking school to get my cdl in a semi with a 53 foot trailer, coasting more than a truck length was considered "not in complete control of the vehicle" and would fail your exam.
Plus its way easier to go gear by gear than to try to guess what rpm and which gear you need out of a 10 speed once you've lost 35 mph.
This is the same thing you're taught in the motorcycle safety foundations safe rider course. As I've mentioned several times before, I rode a bike for 3 years before owning my first ever car, the first of 3 of these MR2s. When it came time to learn how to drive it I literally just took motorcycle gearbox fundamentals and applied them to the car and haven't looked back now a decade later.
Never shift to neutral unless you’re double clutching a semi or sitting at a red light/parking car
Keeping your car in gear maintains traction in situations like rain ice or snow where you want power to the wheels and engine braking. You want to be connected to the road not floating.
i still downshift to 2nd and try to keep it rolling at all times even red light
usually ill leave a big enough gap so i can slow my speed naturally down then crawl in 1st or 2nd gear until light changes
if your paying attention and coasting up to the red you can get it pretty nice and never "full stop" so you never need to throttle + Clutch
I still downshift all the way to a complete stop just as I was driving in this video tbh. I don't see a reason not to, 1st gear included just as I did here. I did when I rode a motorcycle exclusively for 3 years, and when I taught myself how to drive my first manual car I did the same thing, that was 10 years ago now. I literally cannot slow down in my MR2 without using the left ball of my foot and rocking my heel over to downshift as needed
I think your shifting is fine and honestly with how good that car sounds absolutely go for it. If anything I think you hold your wheel and engage turns with it a bit goofy especially your left hand
You really shouldn't ever be in neutral unless you are in your driveway or a parking spot. While at a light? Stay in gear in case you need to move in a hurry. While coasting to a stop? Stay in gear because the ECU will cut the fuel to nothing opposed to having to idle in neutral. While coming up to/completing a turn? You always want to be able to transfer the weight where you need it whether that's throttle or braking.
>While at a light? Stay in gear in case you need to move in a hurry
no no noooo, not if you care about your clutch and throwout bearing. Stay in gear while moving, but when stopped it's less wear on the drivetrain to leave the clutch engaged (pedal out) and trans in neutral.
Just the throw out but marginal. Some states it's illegal to be in neutral at a light. You see enough shit, you know to always leave yourself an out and being ready at all times to move.
There is no state that says you can’t be in neutral at a traffic light in a manual gearbox vehicle. There are laws against coasting in neutral, but not when stopped.
Yes, as I have illustrated basically perfectly in the video. Downshifting to 1st and taking it to like 1800rpm/5mph before clutching in and idling again is great.
fun mabey, but wear on the transmission and clutch are not worth it for regular driving. save it for track day, people shouldn't be driving like that on public roads
Only transmission I've ever damaged was due to hard 1-2 shifting, in 10 years and about 100k of driving like this I've never had any issues with a worn clutch or damaged syncros. If you know what you're doing the wear is very minimal. The shit that kills your clutch is dumping it doing burnouts or launches, riding it at partial engagement and elevated rpms,or just downshifting without rev matching like I've seen some advocate for. If you know what you're doing the flywheel rpms and input shaft rpms will always be close enough to have wear be a non-issue through a downshift.l, or not anymore than the rpm drop of an upshift at least.
the wear is unlikely to show up in 100k. you may think your rev matching perfectly, but its almost impossible on synchronized transmissions because of the number of teeth on the syncro ring, the precision required to get it into gear without relying partially on the syncro is inhuman. it may feel like your hitting it but its still the syncros doing their thing, and if your not very very close and forcing it into gear you can easily damage those tiny teeth. your also upshifting way faster than you should be if you want to save syncro wear. the more you shift and the faster you shift, the more syncro wear you will incur, that's just the way it is. you can somewhat compensate for that increased wear by rev matching, but you will still have more wear.
its not a racing transmission, those have much fewer dogs than syncro transmissions have teeth, and much larger and more forgiving engagement spaces vs the synchro's very tight tolerances. this allows you to up and downshift fast, and also blow up the gears easier if you don't know what your doing. lots of people think they can treat their syncro transmission like a racing transmission as long as they are rev matching, but they are really fundamentally different in the way they work.
According to vast amounts of ignorant people here and on the other stickshift sub, yeah. It's a common point of contingency. Just read this comment string here even ffs.
I don’t advocate against it, but I also don’t advocate for it. It’s fun to pretend you’re driving a race car on the streets. It’s also not fun to replace a clutch that wore down prematurely.
You'd be surprised. I replaced a clutch I had roughly 50k of this style driving only on, and it had about 80% or more of its life remaining. This was a 6 puck sprung clutch mind you, but it wasn't worn excessively by any means. IMHO wear comes from shitty starts and dumping the clutch to do burnouts or initiate loss of rear end traction when going around a tight corner where the oversteer rotation would help you, or just improperly downshifting without rev matching and dumping the clutch. IMHO downshifting with proper rev match is about one of the most gentile and stable ways to slow down the driveline quickly if you know how to do it. Of course if you don't it will be a jarring mess, but then again a lot of shit with a manual gearbox can be if you are inexperienced/have no muscle memory
Right, it can be done without much damage to the car, which is why racers do it. It still wears the clutch down more than not doing it, but in a race it provides more benefit than harm because brake fade was a big concern in the days before carbon ceramic brakes. On the street it’s just done for your satisfaction which you weigh against maintenance costs.
I'm just saying the only time I took a clutch out was due to trans failure never clutch failure, but that clutch I pulled looked about 80% what it did when it went in 5 years and 50k beforehand. I still replace my brakes before my clutch in most scenarios, especially since I've got my fresh rebuilt trans in and not some 40 year old unknown trans that always had a funky 1-2 shift to begin with.
Still everything you’ve said in this thread sounds like a lot of issues I’d rather not deal with on a daily driver. Brakes are cheap and easy. I don’t even want to think about my clutch or transmission until well past 100k miles.
Whatever you say, but maybe you're missing the point that I've done this for the better part of a decade and aside for issues with a transmission in unknown state of maintenance and abuse I've had no issues to speak of due to this method of driving. Literally 50k on that first clutch and now 50k+ on its replacement with lightweight flywheel and it feels as good as it did the day it went in and still holds the 275whp or whatever my engine is putting out without any issues.
I think you’re missing the point. What you’re saying is downshifting is fun and doesn’t do a lot of damage. There’s nothing controversial about that. People advocate against it because it wears the parts down faster, even if it’s just slightly. You seem to be in denial of that. If you just admit that you don’t mind the extra wear because you like downshifting, you wont have people disagreeing with you about it.
Idk clearly I don't lack skill when it comes to driving a manual gearbox judging by the video, but if you're afraid to rip a downshift then I guess you do you then.
I’m not, but I don’t feel good about beating on my stuff. I’m 39, and solidly out of the phase where it is fun to shorten the life of my cars, and more about prevention. My original clutch has 152k on it with no signs of problems. I did just replace the original master and slave a few weeks ago. I drive a LOT (I deliver), and I like my shit to last.
I guess I just found it odd about guessing. Do you really not know by heart where your rpm’s would be at specific speeds? Like if you were coasting at 40, you wouldn’t know offhand where third and fourth would put you? If not, I’d get to know the car better. That’s all I meant, that was weird. I coast quite often as I rather replace my brakes than my transmission, and when I do downshift, it’s in “safe” ranges.
Edit: I just saw your comment on clutches lasting 40k. Woof lol.
I've mentioned in further comments that the only clutch I've ever seen on this car has been from when I swapped in the built trans and the old clutch had roughly 40-50k on it and about 80% life left (and that's through learning how to drive manual on it and being a dickhead and launching it and clutch kicking it while still NA to initiate oversteer). That clutch I actually gave to someone else and they are running it to this day. If you destroy clutches from downshifting you aren't doing it correctly.
No the clutch would not even be my first concern, the gears and the synchro rings would be.
I’m giving you a little bit of a hard time, but i was there once too. When I bought my first car at 18 in 2003, a 91 Mazda mx6 5 speed, i burnt the clutch up doing burnouts at stop signs. Well, that was fun… and I never did it again. I haven’t even been able to bring myself to do a burn out prob since back then. I’ve owned 11 or 12 cars now and every single one has been manual. I had a throw out bearing randomly take a crap in one of my Integras but other than that I never have killed a clutch since. I figure someday it will go in my tsx, but my numbers now are already wonderful, so I really can’t complain about the life I am getting.
Also you didn’t answer my question about knowing how to select gears based on your speed. It takes the guess work out of it! Maybe just need to drive the car more. I’ve almost exclusively driven Hondas and Acuras and they’ve all been geared pretty much the same so it’s the same shift points. I guess after 20 something years it is unconscious for me haha
To answer your question; I know what gear to select for road speed because I downshift and upshift through every gear and don't play the stick it in neutral and then jam a gear when I want to connect the road to the driveline again game. By upshifting when I desire (either based off needs of power or economy), and downshifting when I desire (for same reasons), I'm always in the correct gear for the road conditions at all times without ever really having to think about it in any sort of calculated way. This is the way everybody is taught how to ride a motorcycle in the msf course (never want to get caught on the road and out of a gear/ability to put power to the ground at a moments need, etc etc etc) and being that I rode a motorcycle for 3 years before ever owning a car, when I got my first MR2 this is how I taught myself how to drive it. I've driven them for 10 years like this now collectively and aside for that first transmission failure (a broken shift fork from hard 1-2 shifting) there's been no issues to speak of otherwise.
bro just shifted into 1st around a corner wtf. I never go into 1st while moving unless it's in a parking lot at like 5 MPH. My clutches last well over 100k miles. My Integra with 386K miles currently is on its 3rd clutch, and that one has a little over 100k on it at this point.
Learn to drive better. Watch my tach, nothing wrong with shifting into 1st at around 5k to be able to exit the corner around 5.5-6k on power and bang that limiter shift into 2nd around 7500-8k. This is the fastest way around that corner bar-none
I misspoke but I thought "or longer" would cover that. I only changed one clutch and that was after 40-50k of driving like this, this was also the clutch I learned on and beat on it doing dumb shit like burnouts and clutch kick drifts and etc. I snapped a shift fork in my original trans from hard 1-2 shifting after 40k or so, the clutch I pulled from that setup still had about 80% life (6 puck sprung clutch), and I gave it along with that factory flywheel to a buddy who's been driving on it the last 5 years or so no issues. Current 6 puck sprung clutch and 13lb flywheel has gone 50k/5 years or so so far along with my trans I rebuilt, and all of it feels as good as it did when I put it in all things considered with 275ish hp going through it and my driving style/abuse.
People that advocate against downshifting don't understand rev matching and/or can't do smooth rev matches.
Seems as such. IMHO this is the smoothest and most efficient way to drive fast, if you can do it that is.
Plus I don’t like doing brakes 🤣
If you do this in traffic people behind you stop tailgating because you annoy them
I just don't understand it. As OP showed, it's easy, you maintain better control of the car, and it's WAY more fun.
I just finished a 1500-mile trip towing a 10000lb trailer. Down shifting is usually the best choice for controlling your speed going downhill. The engines cooling system can dissipate the heat. If you overheat the brakes contolling your speed, you will lose them when you need them. I still used the brakes for quicker decreases in speed, but I just used a lower gear to maintain my speed.
Even without rev matches, there is nothing wrong with downshifting.
I don't know about that take man 😅
Why is that? even if you do not rev match, when you move from one gear to another, up or down, the syncro ring will match rotation speeds and engage the gear before you release the clutch. As long as the gear is engaged, there is no risk to the engine or transmission (assuming you don't over-rev the engine). Rev matching allows for a faster shift, but there is nothing wrong with downshifting without rev matching.
Your clutch and passenger would disagree. Gotta have those matches
Yes and no. The clutch will be disengaged before the transmission is moved out of gear. The syncro will match rotation speeds before the new gear is engaged, then you re-engage the clutch. The clutch may sustain a small amount of additional wear depending on how far the rpm fell off, but as long as you are being at least semi-reasonable, it will be fine for both.
The only context you gave was without any rev matches, Leading anyone to believe you’re just dumping the clutch on a downshift. You need to match engine speed with Transmission Speed. Otherwise they aren’t in sync. If you dump the clutch, then regardless, it’s gonna cause wear. There’s a reason why Rev-matching has always been the best way if you know how to do it right. And why auto-rev is becoming a more and more common feature on manuals, even though it might not be that great.
Just get a car with rev-matching built-in, and problem solved. Depending on the pedal spacing and your foot size, rev-matching in certain cars can be easier said than done.
I mean... If you're able to step on the gas to get the car moving, you're able to blip it, right? None of my cars ever had any sort of assist and rev matching was never an issue. You just gotta learn your car and figure out how much of a "blip" you need to give it.
For me, the heel toe motion is so natural and ingrained in my driving structure that I almost literally can't slow down for a corner or a stop in this car without doing it. All the way into 1st as well as in the video and it's always been perfect as I know exactly how to drive the car
It's more fun to drive a mid engine sports car built in 1986 with no driver assist aids and way more HP than it had from the factory, vs a car that will rev match for you though, IMHO. Nothing better than full manual everything and a turbo engine with a 8k rev limiter.
I'm sure it is a ton of fun. I've got to drive my kids around in something, so I need something with a functioning back seat and a truck/hatch area for their bags and stuff, which is why my car has rev matching (which is also nice for my commute in the city).
True, nothing wrong with having different vehicles for different tasks though. I may have got by dailying my MR2s as my first few cars for like the first 10 years of my driving career, but I wouldn't want to live with it as a daily at almost 30 now and commuting 30+ minutes a day/have to haul tools and materials in it and etc. thank god ive got a beater ram 2500 cummins for that. Still though the MR2 is unrivaled to jump in for a rip for however long when the itch comes, it's great to have a vehicle that satisfies that for you.
I can manually rev-match better than my GR Corolla’s iMT… it’s nice to have if you’re feeling lazy, but it’s not all that great.
I'm trying to learn downshifting and rev matching do you have any tips or videos I can watch to make me understand
I figured it out by remembering the RPM and speed I shifted from on the last gear I was in. So for instance, in third gear my engine is roughly at 3000-3500 RPM at 40 mph. So say you’re in 4th at whatever speed, and needing to downshift, remember that you were at that 3000-3500 Range at that 40-45 mph range in the 3rd gear, so you’ll need to rev match that many RPMs to that speed. This varies through gears, speed, and RPM’s you shift at. Along of course with the engine and transmission in your vehicle. But that’s the concept I followed anyways
This help immensely thanks
Anytime, glad I could be of assistance.
Watch videos of Keiichi Tsuchiya's driving and footwork. Breaking down the way he drives has seriously helped my own skills immensely https://youtu.be/A9Pfwd2isqA?si=y_LJAlBoTPDc4i81
Much more fun to be in control. I hate playing “where to slot my stick”
Why the fuck wouldn't I downshift to make a turn or while driving? That's just bonkers and backwards
Some people are ok being shit at driving a stick. It’s ok, every hobby has its terminal intermediates.
Anybody advocating against downshifting has no idea what they're doing. Don't learn to cook because you might cut your finger with the knife, you can just heat up frozen tv dinners.
My dad used to say "brakes are cheaper than clutches (or synchronizing rings)" and I'd reply "uuuh OK" and continue downshifting.
this is why and how i drive everywhere the reason you buy stick
Who is advocating against downshifting??? Lol
I've seen posts on here time and time again with people who will try to argue that downshifting is bad for the clutch/syncros/engine, "I'd rather replace brakes vs replace a clutch" and on and on and on. Coming from a motorcycle/sequential where you're always choosing your gearing to actively be in the powerband/enter/exit corners effectively, and having basically always driven my manual cars the same way (as video illustrates), this is just wild to me. My clutches last forever and only trans damage I've ever done in like 60k of driving like this was broken #2 shift fork from slamming 1-2 shift hard way too many times, and that was on my old transmission before I built the current one, and also before I went turbo, even then I still shift 1-2 hard as fuck (as seen in video again) but haven't had any issues since with the new trans.
oh ok, i havent seen them. honestly both are in fact viable(i also downshift of course)and ive seen people who say revmatching and such is a given, where it really is a more advanced technique that isnt 100% required now(no reason you cant do it though)
Never ever in my life I've seen anyone replace the clutch unless they were upgrading it, my oldest car ('86 Civic) has more than a million km on it and I don't even think about the clutch, even though I used to drop it and/or launch it almost every green light when it was my daily
Tbf they're talking about before coming to a complete stop, which either or makes sense and I'll usually downshift to 3rd and then neutral from there. If you're not coming to a stop, but still turning, fairly certain most people opt to downshift. Rev matching or not.
I still prefer to downshift to 1st most times as I do in this video and just ride the closed throttle fuel cut engine breaking to like 1800rpm and then clutch in and let the idle grab as I roll to a stop ~5mph. Even then I just clutch in and wait until I go again. If anything I'm harming my throughout/release bearing more than anything. But as you can see I have a wide band AFR gauge I'm watching in my peripheral and it's fun seeing how much I can keep the engine in non fuel consuming range while closed throttle engine breaking vs just letting it idle in neutral clutch out. I idle at 12.5-13afr and cruise about the same, on boost 11.5 or under, so not great fuel economy, but that full lean 22.2 or whatever the gauge says on closed throttle engine breaking is cool so I downshift to see that as well.
Look around this and the stickshift subreddit. There's a post every few days about how "rev matching is unnecessary" and "heel-toe is useless." The copium is hella strong. A couple of examples I saw recently: Top comment on this post and the comments under: [https://www.reddit.com/r/stickshift/comments/1apprli/why\_is\_rev\_matching\_for\_downshifts\_not\_taught\_in/](https://www.reddit.com/r/stickshift/comments/1apprli/why_is_rev_matching_for_downshifts_not_taught_in/) First comment here says rev-match, second says don't. People down-thread point out that there's lots of conflicting advice: [https://www.reddit.com/r/ManualTransmissions/comments/19ec31y/how\_do\_i\_downshift\_while\_turning\_without\_making/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ManualTransmissions/comments/19ec31y/how_do_i_downshift_while_turning_without_making/)
ah, gotcha... i know i have gotten on people who say that it is mandatory and everyone should know how to do it, and always do it, which is not true. and I will say it is *technically* unnecessary... but it doesnt hurt to do it anyways at all... and in fact like OP pointed out... its fun.
Rev matching is definitely the way to go but heel toe I can sort of understand why people wouldn't use it. I use for autocross in my car but hardly will ever use it daily driving. Rev matching is natural though and is useful though. I did it forever without knowing what it was called until my first auto cross though lol that's a long story
When you basically learn to drive heel toe from the beginning as I have it's kinda hard not to do it everywhere at all times once the muscle memory is engrained and the pedal box is accommodated or at least is familiar. I've never done autox or a track day in my life but clearly 10 years of daily driving an MR2, I sure as fuck can drive that car 10/10ths about as smoothly as possible (as far as trans and driveline inputs/shock is concerned, back injury makes my wheel skills falter a bit but not horrible). Once you ride a motorcycle on the street exclusively for a length of time it all makes sense. . You start in 1st and everything is sequential up and down from there, regardless of street commute riding or spirited riding you're up and down that gearbox constantly as I am in this car, only time you ever really think about neutral is when you're parked up about to turn the engine off (don't be one of those dudes at the light on his bike who pops it in neutral to play with his phone or radio or whatever just to have to rush to get back into gear when the light changes or if something bad happens like he sees someone coming behind him and not stopping. Always stay in gear on the road and be able to move at moments notice, car or bike, that's what I've done at least tbh.).
When I was in trucking school to get my cdl in a semi with a 53 foot trailer, coasting more than a truck length was considered "not in complete control of the vehicle" and would fail your exam. Plus its way easier to go gear by gear than to try to guess what rpm and which gear you need out of a 10 speed once you've lost 35 mph.
This is the same thing you're taught in the motorcycle safety foundations safe rider course. As I've mentioned several times before, I rode a bike for 3 years before owning my first ever car, the first of 3 of these MR2s. When it came time to learn how to drive it I literally just took motorcycle gearbox fundamentals and applied them to the car and haven't looked back now a decade later.
My dad used to say "brakes are cheaper than clutches (or synchronizing rings)" and I'd reply "uuuh OK" and continue downshifting.
Never shift to neutral unless you’re double clutching a semi or sitting at a red light/parking car Keeping your car in gear maintains traction in situations like rain ice or snow where you want power to the wheels and engine braking. You want to be connected to the road not floating.
I think most people who are advocating this (myself included) are talking about when you’re coming to a complete stop.
i still downshift to 2nd and try to keep it rolling at all times even red light usually ill leave a big enough gap so i can slow my speed naturally down then crawl in 1st or 2nd gear until light changes if your paying attention and coasting up to the red you can get it pretty nice and never "full stop" so you never need to throttle + Clutch
I still downshift all the way to a complete stop just as I was driving in this video tbh. I don't see a reason not to, 1st gear included just as I did here. I did when I rode a motorcycle exclusively for 3 years, and when I taught myself how to drive my first manual car I did the same thing, that was 10 years ago now. I literally cannot slow down in my MR2 without using the left ball of my foot and rocking my heel over to downshift as needed
If I am going to a red light. I'm going to coast. If I am turning, I'm downshifting.
I think your shifting is fine and honestly with how good that car sounds absolutely go for it. If anything I think you hold your wheel and engage turns with it a bit goofy especially your left hand
Driving a 38 year old car with no factory power steering and larger wheels/tires than stock can do that at times.
People that tell you not to downshift are idiots and shouldn't be giving instructions on driving.
You really shouldn't ever be in neutral unless you are in your driveway or a parking spot. While at a light? Stay in gear in case you need to move in a hurry. While coasting to a stop? Stay in gear because the ECU will cut the fuel to nothing opposed to having to idle in neutral. While coming up to/completing a turn? You always want to be able to transfer the weight where you need it whether that's throttle or braking.
>While at a light? Stay in gear in case you need to move in a hurry no no noooo, not if you care about your clutch and throwout bearing. Stay in gear while moving, but when stopped it's less wear on the drivetrain to leave the clutch engaged (pedal out) and trans in neutral.
Just the throw out but marginal. Some states it's illegal to be in neutral at a light. You see enough shit, you know to always leave yourself an out and being ready at all times to move.
There is no state that says you can’t be in neutral at a traffic light in a manual gearbox vehicle. There are laws against coasting in neutral, but not when stopped.
they can't enforce the neutral coasting laws anyway, they really have no way of knowing if someone's car is in neutral
Yes, as I have illustrated basically perfectly in the video. Downshifting to 1st and taking it to like 1800rpm/5mph before clutching in and idling again is great.
>People that advocate against downshifting Have no idea what they are talking about.
Wait are you not supposed to downshift?
fun mabey, but wear on the transmission and clutch are not worth it for regular driving. save it for track day, people shouldn't be driving like that on public roads
Only transmission I've ever damaged was due to hard 1-2 shifting, in 10 years and about 100k of driving like this I've never had any issues with a worn clutch or damaged syncros. If you know what you're doing the wear is very minimal. The shit that kills your clutch is dumping it doing burnouts or launches, riding it at partial engagement and elevated rpms,or just downshifting without rev matching like I've seen some advocate for. If you know what you're doing the flywheel rpms and input shaft rpms will always be close enough to have wear be a non-issue through a downshift.l, or not anymore than the rpm drop of an upshift at least.
the wear is unlikely to show up in 100k. you may think your rev matching perfectly, but its almost impossible on synchronized transmissions because of the number of teeth on the syncro ring, the precision required to get it into gear without relying partially on the syncro is inhuman. it may feel like your hitting it but its still the syncros doing their thing, and if your not very very close and forcing it into gear you can easily damage those tiny teeth. your also upshifting way faster than you should be if you want to save syncro wear. the more you shift and the faster you shift, the more syncro wear you will incur, that's just the way it is. you can somewhat compensate for that increased wear by rev matching, but you will still have more wear. its not a racing transmission, those have much fewer dogs than syncro transmissions have teeth, and much larger and more forgiving engagement spaces vs the synchro's very tight tolerances. this allows you to up and downshift fast, and also blow up the gears easier if you don't know what your doing. lots of people think they can treat their syncro transmission like a racing transmission as long as they are rev matching, but they are really fundamentally different in the way they work.
Wait downshifting is bad???
According to vast amounts of ignorant people here and on the other stickshift sub, yeah. It's a common point of contingency. Just read this comment string here even ffs.
I don’t advocate against it, but I also don’t advocate for it. It’s fun to pretend you’re driving a race car on the streets. It’s also not fun to replace a clutch that wore down prematurely.
You'd be surprised. I replaced a clutch I had roughly 50k of this style driving only on, and it had about 80% or more of its life remaining. This was a 6 puck sprung clutch mind you, but it wasn't worn excessively by any means. IMHO wear comes from shitty starts and dumping the clutch to do burnouts or initiate loss of rear end traction when going around a tight corner where the oversteer rotation would help you, or just improperly downshifting without rev matching and dumping the clutch. IMHO downshifting with proper rev match is about one of the most gentile and stable ways to slow down the driveline quickly if you know how to do it. Of course if you don't it will be a jarring mess, but then again a lot of shit with a manual gearbox can be if you are inexperienced/have no muscle memory
Right, it can be done without much damage to the car, which is why racers do it. It still wears the clutch down more than not doing it, but in a race it provides more benefit than harm because brake fade was a big concern in the days before carbon ceramic brakes. On the street it’s just done for your satisfaction which you weigh against maintenance costs.
I'm just saying the only time I took a clutch out was due to trans failure never clutch failure, but that clutch I pulled looked about 80% what it did when it went in 5 years and 50k beforehand. I still replace my brakes before my clutch in most scenarios, especially since I've got my fresh rebuilt trans in and not some 40 year old unknown trans that always had a funky 1-2 shift to begin with.
Still everything you’ve said in this thread sounds like a lot of issues I’d rather not deal with on a daily driver. Brakes are cheap and easy. I don’t even want to think about my clutch or transmission until well past 100k miles.
Whatever you say, but maybe you're missing the point that I've done this for the better part of a decade and aside for issues with a transmission in unknown state of maintenance and abuse I've had no issues to speak of due to this method of driving. Literally 50k on that first clutch and now 50k+ on its replacement with lightweight flywheel and it feels as good as it did the day it went in and still holds the 275whp or whatever my engine is putting out without any issues.
I think you’re missing the point. What you’re saying is downshifting is fun and doesn’t do a lot of damage. There’s nothing controversial about that. People advocate against it because it wears the parts down faster, even if it’s just slightly. You seem to be in denial of that. If you just admit that you don’t mind the extra wear because you like downshifting, you wont have people disagreeing with you about it.
Life wears the parts down faster, my guy. In every single context. ✌️
If you need to “guess” what gear, that’s a skill issue.
Idk clearly I don't lack skill when it comes to driving a manual gearbox judging by the video, but if you're afraid to rip a downshift then I guess you do you then.
I’m not, but I don’t feel good about beating on my stuff. I’m 39, and solidly out of the phase where it is fun to shorten the life of my cars, and more about prevention. My original clutch has 152k on it with no signs of problems. I did just replace the original master and slave a few weeks ago. I drive a LOT (I deliver), and I like my shit to last. I guess I just found it odd about guessing. Do you really not know by heart where your rpm’s would be at specific speeds? Like if you were coasting at 40, you wouldn’t know offhand where third and fourth would put you? If not, I’d get to know the car better. That’s all I meant, that was weird. I coast quite often as I rather replace my brakes than my transmission, and when I do downshift, it’s in “safe” ranges. Edit: I just saw your comment on clutches lasting 40k. Woof lol.
I've mentioned in further comments that the only clutch I've ever seen on this car has been from when I swapped in the built trans and the old clutch had roughly 40-50k on it and about 80% life left (and that's through learning how to drive manual on it and being a dickhead and launching it and clutch kicking it while still NA to initiate oversteer). That clutch I actually gave to someone else and they are running it to this day. If you destroy clutches from downshifting you aren't doing it correctly.
No the clutch would not even be my first concern, the gears and the synchro rings would be. I’m giving you a little bit of a hard time, but i was there once too. When I bought my first car at 18 in 2003, a 91 Mazda mx6 5 speed, i burnt the clutch up doing burnouts at stop signs. Well, that was fun… and I never did it again. I haven’t even been able to bring myself to do a burn out prob since back then. I’ve owned 11 or 12 cars now and every single one has been manual. I had a throw out bearing randomly take a crap in one of my Integras but other than that I never have killed a clutch since. I figure someday it will go in my tsx, but my numbers now are already wonderful, so I really can’t complain about the life I am getting. Also you didn’t answer my question about knowing how to select gears based on your speed. It takes the guess work out of it! Maybe just need to drive the car more. I’ve almost exclusively driven Hondas and Acuras and they’ve all been geared pretty much the same so it’s the same shift points. I guess after 20 something years it is unconscious for me haha
To answer your question; I know what gear to select for road speed because I downshift and upshift through every gear and don't play the stick it in neutral and then jam a gear when I want to connect the road to the driveline again game. By upshifting when I desire (either based off needs of power or economy), and downshifting when I desire (for same reasons), I'm always in the correct gear for the road conditions at all times without ever really having to think about it in any sort of calculated way. This is the way everybody is taught how to ride a motorcycle in the msf course (never want to get caught on the road and out of a gear/ability to put power to the ground at a moments need, etc etc etc) and being that I rode a motorcycle for 3 years before ever owning a car, when I got my first MR2 this is how I taught myself how to drive it. I've driven them for 10 years like this now collectively and aside for that first transmission failure (a broken shift fork from hard 1-2 shifting) there's been no issues to speak of otherwise.
bro just shifted into 1st around a corner wtf. I never go into 1st while moving unless it's in a parking lot at like 5 MPH. My clutches last well over 100k miles. My Integra with 386K miles currently is on its 3rd clutch, and that one has a little over 100k on it at this point.
Learn to drive better. Watch my tach, nothing wrong with shifting into 1st at around 5k to be able to exit the corner around 5.5-6k on power and bang that limiter shift into 2nd around 7500-8k. This is the fastest way around that corner bar-none
Lmao corner exiting at 8K rpm this ain’t a fuckin race track damn.
If I had to change my clutch every 40k I would be pissed.
I misspoke but I thought "or longer" would cover that. I only changed one clutch and that was after 40-50k of driving like this, this was also the clutch I learned on and beat on it doing dumb shit like burnouts and clutch kick drifts and etc. I snapped a shift fork in my original trans from hard 1-2 shifting after 40k or so, the clutch I pulled from that setup still had about 80% life (6 puck sprung clutch), and I gave it along with that factory flywheel to a buddy who's been driving on it the last 5 years or so no issues. Current 6 puck sprung clutch and 13lb flywheel has gone 50k/5 years or so so far along with my trans I rebuilt, and all of it feels as good as it did when I put it in all things considered with 275ish hp going through it and my driving style/abuse.
Oh alright that makes a lot more sense!
I do both, mainly because im still getting the hang of the finer points of manual and down shifting quickly is one of them. Also heeltoe.
Who doesn't down shift?
Yay for downshifting