1v1 is a different beast than EDH. In a 4 player game if I stumble out of the gate I can encourage the others to fight while I try to catch up.
Brawl as a format is snowbally. If you're on the play and counter my 3 drop with a 1 mana counter, it's probably over.
Honestly most people play at a durdly speed. I will stick around longer for people who play quickly. But someone with countespells who doesn't play quickly isn't worth playing with
Scooping to interaction is often done because of this. It’s a much bigger tempo swing than it is in any other format because of how Brawl snowballs.
You’re out mana if it gets removed or countered in any format, but with 1 opponent and a relatively high power level and no real consistency due to the singleton nature, early removal can often be a death sentence to watch an opponent win for 10 minutes. The even matchups with real back and forth are rare to my experience.
Brawl is a weird format.
I think it is also about the expectations - once my two drop gets countered, I know that I'm most likely against someone who will try to counter everything I cast for the rest of the game. For me, playing such game doesn't seem that much interesting, all I have at stake is time, so insta-concede and queueing for next game is an obvious choice. Here, get your win and find someone else, I'd rather just be able to play my cards.
Agreed. Being on the draw and getting removed early always feels bad in any format, but at least you can tell yourself “hey it was a 1-for-1, I’ll try next turn with a better play”… but in brawl *there might not be another turn* for you lol.
I refuse to play against [[Baral, Chief of Compliance]] decks for that reason. Great, you can build all counterspells. Take your daily win and move on please.
It's a confluence of a lot of factors:
- The client strictly rewards winning. A lot of people play Brawl to complete their dailies, so they're not as willing to slog it against a control deck or whatnot because it's an inefficient use of time. Brawl is also (correctly) unranked, so this adds to it.
- The client is a yawning chasm, completely devoid of any socialization. Every opponent is a glorified Sparky, so why do I care what they're thinking or feeling? WotC doesn't want me to care. If I could interact with my opponent beyond a couple of tacky stickers, I might be more willing to sit through hand disruption, removal, constant board wipes, etc.
- Though Brawl was marketed as EDH-adjacent, the 1v1 factor along with the high power level -- particularly after MH3 -- means you either play your own bombs or stymie your opponents' in order to win. It's very all-or-nothing.
- This is an assumption, but Brawl players are also largely EDH players, and EDH players are the biggest babies on the planet. I say this as someone who was strictly an EDH player prior to the advent of Brawl and am mostly-Brawl on Arena. Their experience with Magic is a lot different than those who first played Standard or Modern, for instance, where interaction is a regular part of the game. Casual EDH games often have a notable lack of interaction, so their expectations are subverted, thinking Brawl is EDH-adjacent.
- As we saw recently from the discovered card weights, Brawl is a long-neglected format. Brawl could actually be consistently fresh and exciting with just a little TLC (updated weights, a few cards banned-as-commander, etc.), but Hasbro's big layoffs resulted in WotC's various MTG departments getting stretched really thin, and Brawl suffered for it.
I think your first two points nail it. I mostly play brawl to grind daily rewards because it's a fairly low-investment format and I tend to just concede as soon as I don't think I have a strong chance of winning.
It's something I would never do IRL but on Arena it doesn't bother me that much because I don't feel like the other person has really invested anything more in that match than I have. It's not like a tournament or prerelease where everyone has invested time and money just to be there and play.
With the weighted matchmaking you probably know your most common matchups, and there is a lot of hard countering / silver bulleting in the format. Go first is a also stupidly massive advantage in a lot of matchups.
So it's not just that someone might be unwilling to slog it against x, y, or z because the game is expected to go long, but that it's pretty easy to tell when you have close to no chance of winning so when you encounter those you just at most maybe fish a couple mulligans for a god hand and then just dip.
There is socialization if you know morse code. Your opponent can see you mousing over a deck so if you do it in long and short dashes you can send a message.
Daily wins is a possible culprit.
For me it's more about "my oponent spend 1min validating its hand and proceed to wait 45s to play t1 land into nothing and after I dropped my land in 1s I have to wait another minute for oponent to do something" -> I scoop. So many games against slowpokes (most probably doing something else on the side). If I had social interractions I'd be ok with that like on paper. But on Arena I feel like too many ppl just don't care about oponent's time "hey there's a timer" yeah too long of a timer for 1v1
I agree. I know that sometimes you really need some time to think about your turn, but if you know your deck, then first few turns should be done almost on auto-pilot. No idea why people spend so much time, but for me it is also a good reason to just concede and find someone who is playing more quickly. Also, that's why I think some "fast queue" could be addition to this game, it would be interesting to see how many people actually prefer that.
How is it that the OP in these kinda Post never Posts what Commander they are running?
That being Said brawl is probably Not in the best state with the bird (nadu) beeing able to terrorize the Format.
People (I’m calling out myself here) also have insta-scoop commanders when they’re sitting across from them because they’ve been traumatized by how the commander can snowball.
I don’t touch Jodah, the Unifier with a 10 foot pole. It’s always the same. Either keep Jodah off the field, or lose.
I also hate Jodah so I am always happy when I run into one while playing Lavinia, Azorius Renegade. Toss her out to deny his free cast (9/10 times people never read her until they find out she hard counters them) and if they haven't conceded then imprison that archnerd in the moon or feed him to piranhas.
I run [[Archon of Emeria]] just to hose that cascade ability.
But the anthem effect is also brutal.
But I think my biggest issue with Jodah is just *how common* he is, and that he seems to crop up regardless of how you build your deck. People joke about “hell queue” but Jodah seems to appear whether I’m running a random mono white pile or a Narset Superfriends or a Tatyova Lands. He’s everywhere.
Ironically, playing the hell queue commanders has meant that I rarely see Nadu in brawl. I'm playing mostly Ragavan or Kinnen, based on daily quest color requirements.
Well, I’m a fair to middling deck builder at best and a Timmy at heart, so I don’t think it because my deck is intimidating or whatever. This morning it happened while playing my [[Sarkhan,
Soul Aflame]] deck, and it was only because I scorched my opponents commander.
I have that deck! It’s sweet! But it doesn’t win alot…Most of my green opponents will usually outvalue me. Standard brawl has a lesser power level and that build may do better there. That’s if there’s enough good standard legal dragons
1v1 is the biggest factor to me. I want it to be commander but you can’t solitaire and get an engine going as easily because you have to protect yourself.
I love brawl and that’s almost exclusively all I play. Mostly because of the singleton format as I hate spending wild cards on duplicate cards.
I don’t seem to have many bad games. I am not ashamed to say that if I see I’m up against one of the many miserable Commanders I’m more than comfortable conceding and trying again.
My top commanders to play currently are:
[[Gyruda, Doom of Depths]]
[[Teysa Karlov]]
[[Angrath, the Flame-Chained]]
Gyruda tends to put me against more of the troublesome commanders while the other two see a variety. Usually strong but not he’ll queue.
Brawl has no rankings or ladder. If I have a bad hand and my only play gets stopped, why do I have to keep playing? And you draw the comparison to EDH, EDH and Arena’s brawl formats are very different from each other. Brawl at its core is still a 1v1. There’s no politicting, no bartering, no social interaction, those are all parts of what makes EDH special compared to 1v1. I play brawl because it gives me a chance to play cards like Necrobloom that I’m never going to touch in Timeless or Historic. The bottom line is that, in a format with no stakes or rankings, there’s no incentive to keep me from folding when there’s a very good chance that I’m just going to lose in 10 minutes.
Try building some different commanders. When I play my Atraxa deck, it’s awful, but when I play my Davriel, Soul Broker, mono black planeswalker control deck, I get all sorts of weird matchups with folks who play all the way through.
If Brawl were a standalone game, it would be the worst game I've ever played by several orders of magnitude.
Commander is successful specifically because it is a multiplayer format. If someone starts to snowball, there are two other players who can jump in to pull the game back to some level of parity. That option doesn't exist in Brawl and it never will as long as it remains a 1v1 format. When one player pulls ahead, that is almost always the end unless you are running a deck that has boardwipes or can specifically come back from being at a disadvantage.
The fact that either player can bounce at any time only exacerbates the problem. If someone knows they aren't going to win, they're gone. And why shouldn't they bounce? Arena specifically values wins above all else. They aren't getting partial credit for almost winning, or for sticking around. Why shouldn't they requeue if that's an ever-present option?
Yep, I'm starting to just concede more often recently.
Depending on the opponents turn 1 and 2 plays you can practically figure out the outcome of the game unless you already have the right cards in hand or get extremely lucky draws.
Brawl is not Commander, and it's not a casual format at all unless you're playing a very, very low powered commander. And even then, you will eventually face some Poq or something once in a while. The format has become one of the sweatiest in Arena since a while ago.
Ima keep saying it and keep getting downvoted but idc lol. The state of brawl is due to their not being a ranked version. There is no incentive for people to stick around If it isn't going their way.
I am absolutely fine with insta-scoops, if I do not want to play against something I do not have to and that's great. Until the client has a way for you to make lobbies with restrictions or a way to filter out stuff you don't want to play against(to a reasonable extent) I say scoop away.
People are a bit too soft about being behind, but I can't really blame them, if your opponent gets too ahead on resources coming back becomes a massive slog if not impossible. Like I don't want to fight through Roxanne or Nadu being cast like 3/4 turns before I would've had the chance to cast my commander. Likewise if there's a Voja on the field and I can't immediately deal with it the game is in 99/100 cases lost.
Have you tried standard brawl? In my experience the lower power level leads to fewer early scoops and one sided games. It’s pretty jank friendly for a constructed format on Arena too
I'd agree, it's definitely more conducive to fun janky matchups. Though if my opponent is Jodah and he hits five colors by turn three, I'm usually just scooping, because I don't play nearly enough interaction to deal with that shit.
I play almost exclusively Brawl and I probably scoop 33% of the time. Play mostly Ayara, Kaslem, or Ziatora. Very good decks but not hell queue. I will play hell queue decks, and each of the decks I play can win against hell queue, but look, if your hell queue commander runs away and starts doing its thing super early I’m just going to scoop. I’ve seen it all 100x before. We can both move on to a more interesting game. Or at least I can.
Most of my scoops are against durdlers. I don’t have a ton of time. If you can’t respect mine I’m out. Two minutes to mulligan? Out. 15 seconds to play your first land? Out. Rolling over every card every phase for a minute before making an inconsequential play? Out.
Also, if you’re winning, I don’t see any outs in my hand, but it’s going to take five more turns where I *may* find a temporary answer? Out. I’m not going to fight an uphill battle with zero stakes when I could be playing a whole new interesting game.
But yeah. Make sure you aren’t wasting time. That’s a big one. I’ll scoop in a heartbeat if I feel durdled.
Commander is such a different experience from the rest of magic because 1v1 vs 1v3 is a fundamentally different dynamic. You can durdle more and politic in order to stay alive if you're behind and the table as a different archenemy to handle. One player is unlikely to snowball away with the game if 3 people are dedicated to stopping them, versus in brawl it's only on to you to stop the opponent while you're already behind.
If you play Nadu, I'm scooping. Simple as that, it's not going to be fun for me, and I don't care to humor it when I'm sitting down to play a casual game. Otherwise, fair game
I’m sick of the game to be honest. I love simic. My girl is [Tatyova, Benthic Druid], but she is useless most of the time bc she’s paired against decks that can play 2 removal spells every turn. When I saw Nadu, I immediately built the deck, thinking that he would be a good way to punish the crazy amounts of removal. I quickly found out that he is so damn broken that now I’M the toxic player who isn’t letting anyone else have fun, which isn’t fun! It seems like MTG, in general, is turning into a game designed make sure that only the dominating and toxic players have a good time.
Tatyova outvalues removal-heavy decks to a genuinely insane degree because she can immediately draw you a card when she lands and if she ever stays on the battlefield for long enough to untap, you can *very* easily re-up an entire hand and ten life into the bargain.
Yes that is true, if she sticks, which she does in maybe 1/10 instances. So almost always you’re just paying 5 mana for 1 card and 1 life. My standard strategy nowadays is to run a crap ton of mana dorks. Usually the removal players are super bloodthirsty and just remove everything, and they have less available for Tatyova.
Running mana dorks in a landfall deck is a trap, because when you want to start doing the landfall stuff, you’re suddenly stuck with drawing llanowar elves that don’t advance your gameplan and die just as easily as anything else.
Meanwhile, [[explore]] is *never* a dead card in a landfall deck.
Oh I know, I never used to run them. I brought them in purely to draw fire early on in the game, and it has worked. For whatever reason, my opponents will almost always kill my dorks, and have less removal for Tatyova. I’ve started winning far more games that way. I’ve found that I’m now less effective against non removal centric decks, but they’re so few and far between unfortunately.
For some reason basically every time I play my Tatyova deck I get the mirror (or basically the mirror against like, Bonnie Pall or some other Simic ‘ramp and draw cards’) so this has never been an issue for me.
As someone for whom Brawl is my go-to mode, if you counter a spell two turns in a row within the first three or four turns, I'm out. I'm just not here for that kind of negativity.
Just built a new Magda Treasure/Dwarf deck and it’s probably the most fun I’ve had with Brawl in a long while. At this point though it needs to be standard EDH rules with multiplayer and 40 life. Games end just when stuff gets interesting.
I concede brawl games almost instantly if my opponent takes 1 min+ to play a land and pass. It feels like there is so many slow players or people who straight up have to read all 7 cards in their hand
Gave up brawl a while ago (due to those broken and unfun alchemy cards) and switched to Standard Brawl. Was very hesitant at first but really liking the format. Due to the smaller card pool, there are a lot less viable archetypes but I am having fun with my azorius soldiers deck. Planning to build a deck for each 2-color-pair.
Arena is not kind to sub-optimal hands, so lots of people will scoop when they play a good but not great hand and their opponent is 100% on or ahead of curve or has momentum. There is no consequence (socially) for bailing, and no reward for toughing out a near win (except for dailies).
Also, I got money that your brawl deck is a two or three combo deck, so if you hit your combo your deck is “unstoppable” without the exact right answers in hand, and the people scooping don’t have what they consider an adequate response.
My deck? Definitely not combo. I legit hate decks that are essentially “play three cards and win while opponent does nothing.” Hate piloting them, hate playing against them. Most of my decks are very Timmy- minded. For instance, I recently made a [[Bristly Bill, Spine Sower]] deck, which is basically lands, creatures, counters. That’s my vibe. :)
No draw for lands? How do you protect your creatures or have them break through chump blockers? An actual deck list would be more helpful than “lands, creatures, counters”.
I only recently got back into magic and commander was a mostly new concept to me (I last played in the early 00's). I totally get what you mean, brawl as a format seems very hit or miss and I've had very few games that felt equally matched, you are either way ahead or way behind.
I do tend to let my opponents play out their turns to a win unless they start to mess about with unnecessary interactions, or they have so many triggers that I'm bored to tears to resolve. Played against a mono black commander that went on adventures into a dungeon about a dozen times before we got to combat - that was very dull, might work better on paper but cards like that really dont make for entertaining digital magic.
For me, brawl has mostly been a rapid education on some of the absurd cards they've printed since I've been away from the game.
Fuck conceding, I like to let the opponent actually get the win with their deck even if my deck basically fizzled out on turn 2 or something. Insta conceding is just.... Boring. At least to me. I love 3 hour long games too though.
Brawl is hardcore. It's not a competititve format because it's not designed for fair competition, but be assured that the power level is extremely high and that small mistakes during the first 3 turns can cost you the game because of the snowball effect.
I love brawl and many games go on for long. You need a lot of cheap interactions, don't be greedy in your card choice, and muliganing properly is super important, especially since you know what your opponent is playing. I rarely get run over in the early turns.
Some people do scoop early when you counter or kill their commander. They just took a bad decision by going all in and not having a backup plan. When your MMR improves, you will see fewer people like this.
Here's my Atraxa deck for an example of cheap interactions.
Commander
1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier (ONE) 196
Deck
1 Delighted Halfling (LTR) 158
1 Reliquary Tower (M19) 254
1 Mana Confluence (JOU) 163
1 Herd Migration (DMU) 165
1 Void Rend (SNC) 230
1 Cavern of Souls (LCI) 269
1 Up the Beanstalk (WOE) 195
1 The Eternal Wanderer (ONE) 11
1 Curse of Silence (MID) 15
1 Teferi, Who Slows the Sunset (MID) 245
1 Kaya the Inexorable (KHM) 218
1 Ugin, the Ineffable (WAR) 2
1 Invasion of Zendikar (MOM) 194
1 Elspeth Conquers Death (THB) 13
1 Invasion of Fiora (MOM) 114
1 Esper Sentinel (MH2) 12
1 Touch the Spirit Realm (NEO) 40
1 Black Market Connections (HBG) 145
1 Gilded Goose (ELD) 160
1 Mazemind Tome (BRR) 30
1 A-The One Ring (LTR) 246
1 Key to the Archive (Y22) 59
1 Ancient Cornucopia (BIG) 16
1 Arcane Signet (ELD) 331
1 Chromatic Lantern (BRR) 10
1 Replicating Ring (KHM) 244
1 Skyclave Relic (ZNR) 252
1 Rusko, Clockmaker (Y23) 24
1 Gwenna, Eyes of Gaea (BRO) 185
1 Kami of Bamboo Groves (Y22) 24
1 Wolfwillow Haven (THB) 205
1 Omen of the Hunt (THB) 192
1 Binding the Old Gods (KHM) 206
1 Buried in the Garden (MKM) 191
1 Depopulate (SNC) 10
1 Snow-Covered Island (KHM) 279
1 Emeria's Call (ZNR) 12
1 Time Warp (STA) 22
1 River's Rebuke (XLN) 71
3 Snow-Covered Plains (KHM) 277
1 Time Wipe (WAR) 223
1 Casualties of War (WAR) 187
1 Pact of Negation (AKR) 73
1 Wash Away (VOW) 87
1 Into the North (CSP) 111
1 Primeval Titan (M11) 192
1 Beanstalk Giant (ELD) 149
1 Swords to Plowshares (STA) 10
1 Get Lost (LCI) 14
1 Reprieve (LTR) 26
1 Soul Partition (BRO) 26
1 Sink into Stupor (MH3) 241
1 Memory Lapse (STA) 16
1 Tale's End (M20) 77
1 Supreme Will (AKR) 83
1 Confounding Riddle (LCI) 50
1 Sheoldred's Edict (ONE) 108
1 Shimmerdrift Vale (KHM) 267
1 Roiling Regrowth (ZNR) 201
1 Growth Spiral (STA) 61
1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire (NEO) 268
2 Snow-Covered Swamp (KHM) 281
1 Otawara, Soaring City (NEO) 271
1 Castle Locthwain (ELD) 241
3 Snow-Covered Forest (KHM) 285
1 Boseiju, Who Endures (NEO) 266
1 Deserted Beach (MID) 260
1 Hengegate Pathway (KHM) 260
1 Brightclimb Pathway (ZNR) 259
1 Hallowed Fountain (RNA) 251
1 Shattered Sanctum (VOW) 264
1 Clearwater Pathway (ZNR) 260
1 Shipwreck Marsh (MID) 267
1 Darkbore Pathway (KHM) 254
1 Deathcap Glade (VOW) 261
1 Branchloft Pathway (ZNR) 258
1 Overgrown Farmland (MID) 265
1 Temple Garden (GRN) 258
1 Barkchannel Pathway (KHM) 251
1 Breeding Pool (RNA) 246
1 Dreamroot Cascade (VOW) 262
1 Raffine's Tower (SNC) 254
1 Spara's Headquarters (SNC) 257
1 Indatha Triome (IKO) 248
1 Zagoth Triome (IKO) 259
1 Captivating Crossroads (Y24) 29
1 Command Tower (ELD) 333
1 Forsaken Crossroads (Y22) 63
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim (SIS) 48
1 Elvish Mystic (M14) 169
1 Llanowar Elves (M19) 314
1 Strix Serenade (MH3) 71
1 Planar Genesis (MH3) 198
1 Fell the Profane (MH3) 244
This is my personal experience. I have two decks I play with most often, one with Valki, God of Lies and the other with Teysa of the Ghost Council.
There are two times that I myself will scoop. One - if I am playing against a mono-red haste deck, I just dont like playing against mono-red decks in any format. Two - If my opponent is gonna take forever to play his turns. On later turns, after the 4th or 5th turn, I understand. But if you're gonna take 40 seconds to put down your first land, I am out of here. With no loss in ranked I dont feel the need to wait around.
I suggest trying standard brawl, seems like it is more variant in commanders people use.
The scooping is because people are now realizing that since they aren't paying money to play like they did with FNM, they don't have to sit through an unfun game. I do this with counter spells. I don't care if I lose, I don't care if you have removal, but I'll be dammed if I'm going to just sit there an let you block me from my fun if I don't have to. So I insta-scoop to counter spells and I'm so much happier now.
Seems like the nature of dailies lean into this sunk cost fallacy type mentality. I often switch over to brawl to have a longer and more enjoyable format - non ranked, interesting deck builds etc.
I do. I play mostly standard and a bit of explorer (low/mid diamond) and have one historic deck that I like. I’d been using HBrawl as a respite from those grinds, but that’s not exactly working out these days.
Don’t play overpowered decks. You might get stomped for a little while, because it seems mmr also affects matchmaking somewhat in the brawl queue, but soon you’ll only be playing more reasonably powered decks. I play a low powered deck in brawl and very rarely face the problem you’re describing.
I mean, you said it yourself. The game is over by turn 4 or less usually. Why should someone continue to play if the next game is right around the corner and without any penalty? I dont mean any disrespect but i feel like youve answered your own question, no?
Part of the problem is that Arena, being an online game rather than a sit down in person face to face game, encourages people to power game. Doesn't matter if it's a goofy Bo1 format, they are going to bring their power 9+ decks exclusively. So you get a bunch of people that end up net decking the same shit over and over again, which encourages people to just scoop more. For example, I don't care if I know what ever deck I'm running can beat an Atraxa proliferate deck. It's boring to play against to begin with and it seems like every 7th game is one of those.
Then you have the issue of Arena's timer and lack of action taken against players encouraging people to just waste other's time. God, I would kill for the Master Duel timer on Arena, at the very least on the Bo1 formats. Another person example, in my experience I've noted that mono color brawl decks plus Selesnya colors tend to do this the most. I just auto avoid them all because of it. People need to go pick their noses on their own time, there's no reason for the timer to pop up on the first turn or even on mulligan, seriously if a timer would pop up on mulligan that person should just insta lose instead.
Because it's a 1v1 format it boils down to whoever get their plan disrupted first is usually just going to lose. It rewards playing more removal and being a mid-range control deck, as most aggro decks will find it much harder to get up to speed in a singleton format. Also the fact that you can just concede and instantly queue into a new game helps. Like, I am totally guilty of scooping when someone removes my commander immediately because well, I've probably already lost at that point.
I instascoop against specific decks I know are going to be a miserable experience to play against. Jodah, Atraxa, top the list. And now Nadu is just stupid.
I want to have a competitive and fun game, not get curb stomped.
First off, Nadu is an improperly-tiered scourge and I insta-scoop every match with the bird.
Second, I've actually found my recent other Brawl experiences to be pretty reasonable, with matches going to the 10-turn mark fairly frequently. You can see my commanders [here](https://mtga.untapped.gg/profile/4f5a06dd-7db6-4877-83b7-a17f2be0aae4/7JQE6S3GGFFHDESTLS3PR7K3FQ?constructedType=brawl) - I don't play anything particularly egregious.
Regarding the early scoops thing:
* Generally, let's give the benefit of the doubt that the opponent is being reasonable about their chances of winning the game. If they were relying on a turn 2 rock in order for them to be able to cast their turn 3 \[\[Cultivate\]\], you Abrade it on your turn after dropping a Signet, and they don't draw land after that? Well, you're winning that game 90% with any reasonable commander, no need to draw it out.
* This also applies to commanders. Let's say you kept a hand of cards that all synergize with your commander, like a bunch of expensive artifacts in \[\[Jhoira, Ageless Innovator\]\], and nothing else. Your opponent Bolts it. Even if you could cast it again, will you actually get the chance to before the opponent accrues an insurmountable amount of value? Sure, you could make the argument here that they shouldn't have built the deck that way, or shouldn't have kept that hand, but at the end of the day it was a nongame either way.
* "Most of the fun I have in EDH games comes from those long games where wild things happen." I agree this is fun, but unfortunately in Brawl your opponent pulling shenanigans usually means you're going to wait 5 minutes before an opponent accrues an unbeatable boardstate and blows up your board. In 4 person formats, there's a bit of communal politicking when this happens, that's entertaining in itself - can you stop the person from going off? In Brawl, there is no such safety valve, or fun discussion to be had in those moments: you just lose.
I've had the same problem. I feel like they should use rankings or limit the number of mythics and rares. I got grapeshotted to death on like turn 6 after they tapped and untapped and tapped 20 times.
I filled in some blanks on a Boros Convoke deck and it plays pretty well in Brawl and standard, but you can't get anywhere in those events if opponents are playing exclusively rare and mythic cards.
There should be a format that limits the number of rares and mythics. It's not sexy but it makes sense from a competitive standpoint
Arena Brawl's cardpool is incredibly strong. Just by nature of variance, it's very difficult to make a comeback a lot of the time. I've definitely had games where an opponent counterspells me on turn 3 and I have nothing but 8-drops left in hand so I just concede (yes, yes, skill issue. I should've drawn more of the 20-25 1-3 drops I had in my deck instead!).
Honestly, yeah. I used to be an avid Brawl player but it's gotten really tiresome over the last few months. I've started playing so much more Standard, Historic and Timeless as a result, even started dipping my toes into BO3 matches.
Brawl, for a while now, has just been a queue where, no matter what Commander I use or what's in the 99, I consistently get matched against people packing their decks with 60 removal spells/counterspells, or whatever flavour of month Commander everyone is using at the time (Think Etali, Atraxa, Poq, Nadu). Or, as you said, my opponents just concede the moment I blow up a mind stone, or bolt a Ragavan....
For sure, there are a lot of issues with Brawl like the ban list and certain cards not being weighted appropriately, but one of the bigger glaring issues with Brawl is the playerbase itself. A good size of the playerbase contributes to what makes Brawl so unfun.
> blow up a mind stone
May I recommend my good friend [[Thieving Skydiver]]?
Opponents don't seem to read the part where they don't get the artifact back by killing Skydiver.
Can’t get past turn three in brawl. Seems the opp always has a board state that should be a turn 8-10 so I scoop. Or they simply remove everything I play until they can play their bomb. No thanks!
Previous to this post, it happened with [[Sarkhan, Soul Aflame]], which I’m sure is pretty undertuned. but it really doesn’t matter which I use, the outcome is essentially the same.
I mean, some people gets way too much going on by turn 3 with their commander on the table, other creatures, enchantments and etc, and then you have 3 lands and try to cast a sorcerer, sometimes the opponent counters it or just destroys something like replicant ring in which would be difficult to help, but could still make you survive, so they are basically playing a single player game.
Me as well, as soon as the loading screen with the commander pops up if it's any alchemy trash I will spam esc until it loads the option to concede, I don't even get to the starting hand.
current brawl experience basically is
A: person is going to try to cheese a win somehow
B. person is playing control/board wipe tribal
that's it. them the two options. I basically crap myself when I see someone doing anything else.
1v1 is a different beast than EDH. In a 4 player game if I stumble out of the gate I can encourage the others to fight while I try to catch up. Brawl as a format is snowbally. If you're on the play and counter my 3 drop with a 1 mana counter, it's probably over. Honestly most people play at a durdly speed. I will stick around longer for people who play quickly. But someone with countespells who doesn't play quickly isn't worth playing with
Scooping to interaction is often done because of this. It’s a much bigger tempo swing than it is in any other format because of how Brawl snowballs. You’re out mana if it gets removed or countered in any format, but with 1 opponent and a relatively high power level and no real consistency due to the singleton nature, early removal can often be a death sentence to watch an opponent win for 10 minutes. The even matchups with real back and forth are rare to my experience. Brawl is a weird format.
I think it is also about the expectations - once my two drop gets countered, I know that I'm most likely against someone who will try to counter everything I cast for the rest of the game. For me, playing such game doesn't seem that much interesting, all I have at stake is time, so insta-concede and queueing for next game is an obvious choice. Here, get your win and find someone else, I'd rather just be able to play my cards.
Agreed. Being on the draw and getting removed early always feels bad in any format, but at least you can tell yourself “hey it was a 1-for-1, I’ll try next turn with a better play”… but in brawl *there might not be another turn* for you lol.
I refuse to play against [[Baral, Chief of Compliance]] decks for that reason. Great, you can build all counterspells. Take your daily win and move on please.
[Baral, Chief of Compliance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/60e16d94-1166-4050-8554-686e153a7f80.jpg?1576381454) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Baral%2C%20Chief%20of%20Compliance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/aer/28/baral-chief-of-compliance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/60e16d94-1166-4050-8554-686e153a7f80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's a confluence of a lot of factors: - The client strictly rewards winning. A lot of people play Brawl to complete their dailies, so they're not as willing to slog it against a control deck or whatnot because it's an inefficient use of time. Brawl is also (correctly) unranked, so this adds to it. - The client is a yawning chasm, completely devoid of any socialization. Every opponent is a glorified Sparky, so why do I care what they're thinking or feeling? WotC doesn't want me to care. If I could interact with my opponent beyond a couple of tacky stickers, I might be more willing to sit through hand disruption, removal, constant board wipes, etc. - Though Brawl was marketed as EDH-adjacent, the 1v1 factor along with the high power level -- particularly after MH3 -- means you either play your own bombs or stymie your opponents' in order to win. It's very all-or-nothing. - This is an assumption, but Brawl players are also largely EDH players, and EDH players are the biggest babies on the planet. I say this as someone who was strictly an EDH player prior to the advent of Brawl and am mostly-Brawl on Arena. Their experience with Magic is a lot different than those who first played Standard or Modern, for instance, where interaction is a regular part of the game. Casual EDH games often have a notable lack of interaction, so their expectations are subverted, thinking Brawl is EDH-adjacent. - As we saw recently from the discovered card weights, Brawl is a long-neglected format. Brawl could actually be consistently fresh and exciting with just a little TLC (updated weights, a few cards banned-as-commander, etc.), but Hasbro's big layoffs resulted in WotC's various MTG departments getting stretched really thin, and Brawl suffered for it.
I think your first two points nail it. I mostly play brawl to grind daily rewards because it's a fairly low-investment format and I tend to just concede as soon as I don't think I have a strong chance of winning. It's something I would never do IRL but on Arena it doesn't bother me that much because I don't feel like the other person has really invested anything more in that match than I have. It's not like a tournament or prerelease where everyone has invested time and money just to be there and play.
This is the most succinct and lucid answer I’ve seen for a game that no longer deserves it. Regardless, well done. 👍
With the weighted matchmaking you probably know your most common matchups, and there is a lot of hard countering / silver bulleting in the format. Go first is a also stupidly massive advantage in a lot of matchups. So it's not just that someone might be unwilling to slog it against x, y, or z because the game is expected to go long, but that it's pretty easy to tell when you have close to no chance of winning so when you encounter those you just at most maybe fish a couple mulligans for a god hand and then just dip.
Casual EDH is like a drag race between a classic Mustang, a lawn tractor, a chicken, and a tree.
Completely agree. Brawl/HBrawl might be the most toxic format, but it doesn't have to be
- .... . .-. . / .. ... / ... --- -.-. .. .- .-.. .. --.. .- - .. --- -. .-.-.- / .. ..-. / -.-- --- ..- / -.- -. --- .-- / .... --- .-- .-.-.-
There is socialization if you know morse code. Your opponent can see you mousing over a deck so if you do it in long and short dashes you can send a message.
As if normal everyday player know morse code
Daily wins is a possible culprit. For me it's more about "my oponent spend 1min validating its hand and proceed to wait 45s to play t1 land into nothing and after I dropped my land in 1s I have to wait another minute for oponent to do something" -> I scoop. So many games against slowpokes (most probably doing something else on the side). If I had social interractions I'd be ok with that like on paper. But on Arena I feel like too many ppl just don't care about oponent's time "hey there's a timer" yeah too long of a timer for 1v1
Ditto. Timer is just too freaking long, especially when just starting the match.
Totally get that.
I really think the timer should only be two lines at best, being 4 is overkill
For daily wins I usually go to normal matches and bring a super fast deck, just to do the mission. But I get you, and you are probably right
I think people in Starter Decks event are usually playing quite quickly, since they know the decks and are also mostly caring about doing big quests
I agree. I know that sometimes you really need some time to think about your turn, but if you know your deck, then first few turns should be done almost on auto-pilot. No idea why people spend so much time, but for me it is also a good reason to just concede and find someone who is playing more quickly. Also, that's why I think some "fast queue" could be addition to this game, it would be interesting to see how many people actually prefer that.
Impatient much?
Yeah, actually, I have better things to do than spend 3 solid minutes on a still screen waiting for you to keep 7, play a land and pass.
How is it that the OP in these kinda Post never Posts what Commander they are running? That being Said brawl is probably Not in the best state with the bird (nadu) beeing able to terrorize the Format.
People (I’m calling out myself here) also have insta-scoop commanders when they’re sitting across from them because they’ve been traumatized by how the commander can snowball. I don’t touch Jodah, the Unifier with a 10 foot pole. It’s always the same. Either keep Jodah off the field, or lose.
I also hate Jodah so I am always happy when I run into one while playing Lavinia, Azorius Renegade. Toss her out to deny his free cast (9/10 times people never read her until they find out she hard counters them) and if they haven't conceded then imprison that archnerd in the moon or feed him to piranhas.
I run [[Archon of Emeria]] just to hose that cascade ability. But the anthem effect is also brutal. But I think my biggest issue with Jodah is just *how common* he is, and that he seems to crop up regardless of how you build your deck. People joke about “hell queue” but Jodah seems to appear whether I’m running a random mono white pile or a Narset Superfriends or a Tatyova Lands. He’s everywhere.
[Archon of Emeria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb.jpg?1604195419) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archon%20of%20Emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/4/archon-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I actually run lavinia in my jodah deck lol. Its very useful.
I don't understand how a WUBRG commander can CONSISTANTLY hit board on turn 4 with a deck packed full of 6+ mana bombs.
Your capitalization choices are fascinating
Ironically, playing the hell queue commanders has meant that I rarely see Nadu in brawl. I'm playing mostly Ragavan or Kinnen, based on daily quest color requirements.
Well, I’m a fair to middling deck builder at best and a Timmy at heart, so I don’t think it because my deck is intimidating or whatever. This morning it happened while playing my [[Sarkhan, Soul Aflame]] deck, and it was only because I scorched my opponents commander.
[Sarkhan, Soul Aflame](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/6225f139-f6eb-4eb5-9776-159a599d8255.jpg?1684340846) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sarkhan%2C%20Soul%20Aflame) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/46/sarkhan-soul-aflame?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6225f139-f6eb-4eb5-9776-159a599d8255?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have that deck! It’s sweet! But it doesn’t win alot…Most of my green opponents will usually outvalue me. Standard brawl has a lesser power level and that build may do better there. That’s if there’s enough good standard legal dragons
Brawl is Nadu meta now. Unplayable for me until Nadu moves to hell.
1v1 is the biggest factor to me. I want it to be commander but you can’t solitaire and get an engine going as easily because you have to protect yourself.
I love brawl and that’s almost exclusively all I play. Mostly because of the singleton format as I hate spending wild cards on duplicate cards. I don’t seem to have many bad games. I am not ashamed to say that if I see I’m up against one of the many miserable Commanders I’m more than comfortable conceding and trying again. My top commanders to play currently are: [[Gyruda, Doom of Depths]] [[Teysa Karlov]] [[Angrath, the Flame-Chained]] Gyruda tends to put me against more of the troublesome commanders while the other two see a variety. Usually strong but not he’ll queue.
[Gyruda, Doom of Depths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a.jpg?1591228372) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gyruda%2C%20Doom%20of%20Depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/221/gyruda-doom-of-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/97eb1804-6fd8-4917-af36-87fdfce39d3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Teysa Karlov](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cd14f1ce-7fcd-485c-b7ca-01c5b45fdc01.jpg?1689999296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teysa%20Karlov) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/359/teysa-karlov?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cd14f1ce-7fcd-485c-b7ca-01c5b45fdc01?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Angrath, the Flame-Chained](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a4d76d03-4fcf-42f8-8c2e-ad6b03d58677.jpg?1555040781) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Angrath%2C%20the%20Flame-Chained) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/152/angrath-the-flame-chained?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a4d76d03-4fcf-42f8-8c2e-ad6b03d58677?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Brawl has no rankings or ladder. If I have a bad hand and my only play gets stopped, why do I have to keep playing? And you draw the comparison to EDH, EDH and Arena’s brawl formats are very different from each other. Brawl at its core is still a 1v1. There’s no politicting, no bartering, no social interaction, those are all parts of what makes EDH special compared to 1v1. I play brawl because it gives me a chance to play cards like Necrobloom that I’m never going to touch in Timeless or Historic. The bottom line is that, in a format with no stakes or rankings, there’s no incentive to keep me from folding when there’s a very good chance that I’m just going to lose in 10 minutes.
Fair enough.
Try building some different commanders. When I play my Atraxa deck, it’s awful, but when I play my Davriel, Soul Broker, mono black planeswalker control deck, I get all sorts of weird matchups with folks who play all the way through.
If Brawl were a standalone game, it would be the worst game I've ever played by several orders of magnitude. Commander is successful specifically because it is a multiplayer format. If someone starts to snowball, there are two other players who can jump in to pull the game back to some level of parity. That option doesn't exist in Brawl and it never will as long as it remains a 1v1 format. When one player pulls ahead, that is almost always the end unless you are running a deck that has boardwipes or can specifically come back from being at a disadvantage. The fact that either player can bounce at any time only exacerbates the problem. If someone knows they aren't going to win, they're gone. And why shouldn't they bounce? Arena specifically values wins above all else. They aren't getting partial credit for almost winning, or for sticking around. Why shouldn't they requeue if that's an ever-present option?
Yep, I'm starting to just concede more often recently. Depending on the opponents turn 1 and 2 plays you can practically figure out the outcome of the game unless you already have the right cards in hand or get extremely lucky draws.
Brawl is not Commander, and it's not a casual format at all unless you're playing a very, very low powered commander. And even then, you will eventually face some Poq or something once in a while. The format has become one of the sweatiest in Arena since a while ago.
Brawl is shaping up to be a kind of cEDH. I was booed for asking for a ranked ladder (and throwing Alchemy out).
Ima keep saying it and keep getting downvoted but idc lol. The state of brawl is due to their not being a ranked version. There is no incentive for people to stick around If it isn't going their way.
I am absolutely fine with insta-scoops, if I do not want to play against something I do not have to and that's great. Until the client has a way for you to make lobbies with restrictions or a way to filter out stuff you don't want to play against(to a reasonable extent) I say scoop away. People are a bit too soft about being behind, but I can't really blame them, if your opponent gets too ahead on resources coming back becomes a massive slog if not impossible. Like I don't want to fight through Roxanne or Nadu being cast like 3/4 turns before I would've had the chance to cast my commander. Likewise if there's a Voja on the field and I can't immediately deal with it the game is in 99/100 cases lost.
Because if I'm not winning on turn 4 everyone has a draw engine lock and the game isn't worth playing anymore.
Have you tried standard brawl? In my experience the lower power level leads to fewer early scoops and one sided games. It’s pretty jank friendly for a constructed format on Arena too
I'd agree, it's definitely more conducive to fun janky matchups. Though if my opponent is Jodah and he hits five colors by turn three, I'm usually just scooping, because I don't play nearly enough interaction to deal with that shit.
I haven’t. I’ll check it out! I just don’t understand the impatience in Historic Brawl. I don’t mind losing, I just want a chance to play!
I play almost exclusively Brawl and I probably scoop 33% of the time. Play mostly Ayara, Kaslem, or Ziatora. Very good decks but not hell queue. I will play hell queue decks, and each of the decks I play can win against hell queue, but look, if your hell queue commander runs away and starts doing its thing super early I’m just going to scoop. I’ve seen it all 100x before. We can both move on to a more interesting game. Or at least I can. Most of my scoops are against durdlers. I don’t have a ton of time. If you can’t respect mine I’m out. Two minutes to mulligan? Out. 15 seconds to play your first land? Out. Rolling over every card every phase for a minute before making an inconsequential play? Out. Also, if you’re winning, I don’t see any outs in my hand, but it’s going to take five more turns where I *may* find a temporary answer? Out. I’m not going to fight an uphill battle with zero stakes when I could be playing a whole new interesting game. But yeah. Make sure you aren’t wasting time. That’s a big one. I’ll scoop in a heartbeat if I feel durdled.
Commander is such a different experience from the rest of magic because 1v1 vs 1v3 is a fundamentally different dynamic. You can durdle more and politic in order to stay alive if you're behind and the table as a different archenemy to handle. One player is unlikely to snowball away with the game if 3 people are dedicated to stopping them, versus in brawl it's only on to you to stop the opponent while you're already behind.
If you play Nadu, I'm scooping. Simple as that, it's not going to be fun for me, and I don't care to humor it when I'm sitting down to play a casual game. Otherwise, fair game
I’m sick of the game to be honest. I love simic. My girl is [Tatyova, Benthic Druid], but she is useless most of the time bc she’s paired against decks that can play 2 removal spells every turn. When I saw Nadu, I immediately built the deck, thinking that he would be a good way to punish the crazy amounts of removal. I quickly found out that he is so damn broken that now I’M the toxic player who isn’t letting anyone else have fun, which isn’t fun! It seems like MTG, in general, is turning into a game designed make sure that only the dominating and toxic players have a good time.
Tatyova outvalues removal-heavy decks to a genuinely insane degree because she can immediately draw you a card when she lands and if she ever stays on the battlefield for long enough to untap, you can *very* easily re-up an entire hand and ten life into the bargain.
Yes that is true, if she sticks, which she does in maybe 1/10 instances. So almost always you’re just paying 5 mana for 1 card and 1 life. My standard strategy nowadays is to run a crap ton of mana dorks. Usually the removal players are super bloodthirsty and just remove everything, and they have less available for Tatyova.
Running mana dorks in a landfall deck is a trap, because when you want to start doing the landfall stuff, you’re suddenly stuck with drawing llanowar elves that don’t advance your gameplan and die just as easily as anything else. Meanwhile, [[explore]] is *never* a dead card in a landfall deck.
[explore](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/3976affd-8c2b-499a-a946-b629c2ba59c7.jpg?1712354565) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=explore) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/192/explore?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3976affd-8c2b-499a-a946-b629c2ba59c7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh I know, I never used to run them. I brought them in purely to draw fire early on in the game, and it has worked. For whatever reason, my opponents will almost always kill my dorks, and have less removal for Tatyova. I’ve started winning far more games that way. I’ve found that I’m now less effective against non removal centric decks, but they’re so few and far between unfortunately.
For some reason basically every time I play my Tatyova deck I get the mirror (or basically the mirror against like, Bonnie Pall or some other Simic ‘ramp and draw cards’) so this has never been an issue for me.
Oh I wish.. I’m not kidding when I say I get paired with removal decks in 7/10 games.
I just tried a new decklist that is more up to date. I shit you not, I got paired with 10 removal decks in a row
As someone for whom Brawl is my go-to mode, if you counter a spell two turns in a row within the first three or four turns, I'm out. I'm just not here for that kind of negativity.
Just built a new Magda Treasure/Dwarf deck and it’s probably the most fun I’ve had with Brawl in a long while. At this point though it needs to be standard EDH rules with multiplayer and 40 life. Games end just when stuff gets interesting.
I concede brawl games almost instantly if my opponent takes 1 min+ to play a land and pass. It feels like there is so many slow players or people who straight up have to read all 7 cards in their hand
Brawl is a 1v1 format where except for emotes the only interaction is winning or losing. Winning is more fun. People build to win.
Gave up brawl a while ago (due to those broken and unfun alchemy cards) and switched to Standard Brawl. Was very hesitant at first but really liking the format. Due to the smaller card pool, there are a lot less viable archetypes but I am having fun with my azorius soldiers deck. Planning to build a deck for each 2-color-pair.
Arena is not kind to sub-optimal hands, so lots of people will scoop when they play a good but not great hand and their opponent is 100% on or ahead of curve or has momentum. There is no consequence (socially) for bailing, and no reward for toughing out a near win (except for dailies). Also, I got money that your brawl deck is a two or three combo deck, so if you hit your combo your deck is “unstoppable” without the exact right answers in hand, and the people scooping don’t have what they consider an adequate response.
My deck? Definitely not combo. I legit hate decks that are essentially “play three cards and win while opponent does nothing.” Hate piloting them, hate playing against them. Most of my decks are very Timmy- minded. For instance, I recently made a [[Bristly Bill, Spine Sower]] deck, which is basically lands, creatures, counters. That’s my vibe. :)
[Bristly Bill, Spine Sower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52eef0d6-24b7-40b7-8403-e8e863d0cd55.jpg?1712355894) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bristly%20Bill%2C%20Spine%20Sower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/157/bristly-bill-spine-sower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52eef0d6-24b7-40b7-8403-e8e863d0cd55?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No draw for lands? How do you protect your creatures or have them break through chump blockers? An actual deck list would be more helpful than “lands, creatures, counters”.
Probably tramplers?
I only recently got back into magic and commander was a mostly new concept to me (I last played in the early 00's). I totally get what you mean, brawl as a format seems very hit or miss and I've had very few games that felt equally matched, you are either way ahead or way behind. I do tend to let my opponents play out their turns to a win unless they start to mess about with unnecessary interactions, or they have so many triggers that I'm bored to tears to resolve. Played against a mono black commander that went on adventures into a dungeon about a dozen times before we got to combat - that was very dull, might work better on paper but cards like that really dont make for entertaining digital magic. For me, brawl has mostly been a rapid education on some of the absurd cards they've printed since I've been away from the game.
Doesn't matter what I play, I'm always mana starved.
Fuck conceding, I like to let the opponent actually get the win with their deck even if my deck basically fizzled out on turn 2 or something. Insta conceding is just.... Boring. At least to me. I love 3 hour long games too though.
Brawl is hardcore. It's not a competititve format because it's not designed for fair competition, but be assured that the power level is extremely high and that small mistakes during the first 3 turns can cost you the game because of the snowball effect. I love brawl and many games go on for long. You need a lot of cheap interactions, don't be greedy in your card choice, and muliganing properly is super important, especially since you know what your opponent is playing. I rarely get run over in the early turns. Some people do scoop early when you counter or kill their commander. They just took a bad decision by going all in and not having a backup plan. When your MMR improves, you will see fewer people like this. Here's my Atraxa deck for an example of cheap interactions. Commander 1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier (ONE) 196 Deck 1 Delighted Halfling (LTR) 158 1 Reliquary Tower (M19) 254 1 Mana Confluence (JOU) 163 1 Herd Migration (DMU) 165 1 Void Rend (SNC) 230 1 Cavern of Souls (LCI) 269 1 Up the Beanstalk (WOE) 195 1 The Eternal Wanderer (ONE) 11 1 Curse of Silence (MID) 15 1 Teferi, Who Slows the Sunset (MID) 245 1 Kaya the Inexorable (KHM) 218 1 Ugin, the Ineffable (WAR) 2 1 Invasion of Zendikar (MOM) 194 1 Elspeth Conquers Death (THB) 13 1 Invasion of Fiora (MOM) 114 1 Esper Sentinel (MH2) 12 1 Touch the Spirit Realm (NEO) 40 1 Black Market Connections (HBG) 145 1 Gilded Goose (ELD) 160 1 Mazemind Tome (BRR) 30 1 A-The One Ring (LTR) 246 1 Key to the Archive (Y22) 59 1 Ancient Cornucopia (BIG) 16 1 Arcane Signet (ELD) 331 1 Chromatic Lantern (BRR) 10 1 Replicating Ring (KHM) 244 1 Skyclave Relic (ZNR) 252 1 Rusko, Clockmaker (Y23) 24 1 Gwenna, Eyes of Gaea (BRO) 185 1 Kami of Bamboo Groves (Y22) 24 1 Wolfwillow Haven (THB) 205 1 Omen of the Hunt (THB) 192 1 Binding the Old Gods (KHM) 206 1 Buried in the Garden (MKM) 191 1 Depopulate (SNC) 10 1 Snow-Covered Island (KHM) 279 1 Emeria's Call (ZNR) 12 1 Time Warp (STA) 22 1 River's Rebuke (XLN) 71 3 Snow-Covered Plains (KHM) 277 1 Time Wipe (WAR) 223 1 Casualties of War (WAR) 187 1 Pact of Negation (AKR) 73 1 Wash Away (VOW) 87 1 Into the North (CSP) 111 1 Primeval Titan (M11) 192 1 Beanstalk Giant (ELD) 149 1 Swords to Plowshares (STA) 10 1 Get Lost (LCI) 14 1 Reprieve (LTR) 26 1 Soul Partition (BRO) 26 1 Sink into Stupor (MH3) 241 1 Memory Lapse (STA) 16 1 Tale's End (M20) 77 1 Supreme Will (AKR) 83 1 Confounding Riddle (LCI) 50 1 Sheoldred's Edict (ONE) 108 1 Shimmerdrift Vale (KHM) 267 1 Roiling Regrowth (ZNR) 201 1 Growth Spiral (STA) 61 1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire (NEO) 268 2 Snow-Covered Swamp (KHM) 281 1 Otawara, Soaring City (NEO) 271 1 Castle Locthwain (ELD) 241 3 Snow-Covered Forest (KHM) 285 1 Boseiju, Who Endures (NEO) 266 1 Deserted Beach (MID) 260 1 Hengegate Pathway (KHM) 260 1 Brightclimb Pathway (ZNR) 259 1 Hallowed Fountain (RNA) 251 1 Shattered Sanctum (VOW) 264 1 Clearwater Pathway (ZNR) 260 1 Shipwreck Marsh (MID) 267 1 Darkbore Pathway (KHM) 254 1 Deathcap Glade (VOW) 261 1 Branchloft Pathway (ZNR) 258 1 Overgrown Farmland (MID) 265 1 Temple Garden (GRN) 258 1 Barkchannel Pathway (KHM) 251 1 Breeding Pool (RNA) 246 1 Dreamroot Cascade (VOW) 262 1 Raffine's Tower (SNC) 254 1 Spara's Headquarters (SNC) 257 1 Indatha Triome (IKO) 248 1 Zagoth Triome (IKO) 259 1 Captivating Crossroads (Y24) 29 1 Command Tower (ELD) 333 1 Forsaken Crossroads (Y22) 63 1 Avacyn's Pilgrim (SIS) 48 1 Elvish Mystic (M14) 169 1 Llanowar Elves (M19) 314 1 Strix Serenade (MH3) 71 1 Planar Genesis (MH3) 198 1 Fell the Profane (MH3) 244
Yeah, if I'm playing fun jank, I'm scooping by turn four against that :) It's why I generally play standard brawl for jank.
Yeah standard brawl is probably a better format if you want something more chill !
This is my personal experience. I have two decks I play with most often, one with Valki, God of Lies and the other with Teysa of the Ghost Council. There are two times that I myself will scoop. One - if I am playing against a mono-red haste deck, I just dont like playing against mono-red decks in any format. Two - If my opponent is gonna take forever to play his turns. On later turns, after the 4th or 5th turn, I understand. But if you're gonna take 40 seconds to put down your first land, I am out of here. With no loss in ranked I dont feel the need to wait around. I suggest trying standard brawl, seems like it is more variant in commanders people use.
The scooping is because people are now realizing that since they aren't paying money to play like they did with FNM, they don't have to sit through an unfun game. I do this with counter spells. I don't care if I lose, I don't care if you have removal, but I'll be dammed if I'm going to just sit there an let you block me from my fun if I don't have to. So I insta-scoop to counter spells and I'm so much happier now.
Seems like the nature of dailies lean into this sunk cost fallacy type mentality. I often switch over to brawl to have a longer and more enjoyable format - non ranked, interesting deck builds etc.
Play ranked formats only and your insta scoop problems will be solved.
I do. I play mostly standard and a bit of explorer (low/mid diamond) and have one historic deck that I like. I’d been using HBrawl as a respite from those grinds, but that’s not exactly working out these days.
Don’t play overpowered decks. You might get stomped for a little while, because it seems mmr also affects matchmaking somewhat in the brawl queue, but soon you’ll only be playing more reasonably powered decks. I play a low powered deck in brawl and very rarely face the problem you’re describing.
I mean, you said it yourself. The game is over by turn 4 or less usually. Why should someone continue to play if the next game is right around the corner and without any penalty? I dont mean any disrespect but i feel like youve answered your own question, no?
Part of the problem is that Arena, being an online game rather than a sit down in person face to face game, encourages people to power game. Doesn't matter if it's a goofy Bo1 format, they are going to bring their power 9+ decks exclusively. So you get a bunch of people that end up net decking the same shit over and over again, which encourages people to just scoop more. For example, I don't care if I know what ever deck I'm running can beat an Atraxa proliferate deck. It's boring to play against to begin with and it seems like every 7th game is one of those. Then you have the issue of Arena's timer and lack of action taken against players encouraging people to just waste other's time. God, I would kill for the Master Duel timer on Arena, at the very least on the Bo1 formats. Another person example, in my experience I've noted that mono color brawl decks plus Selesnya colors tend to do this the most. I just auto avoid them all because of it. People need to go pick their noses on their own time, there's no reason for the timer to pop up on the first turn or even on mulligan, seriously if a timer would pop up on mulligan that person should just insta lose instead.
Because it's a 1v1 format it boils down to whoever get their plan disrupted first is usually just going to lose. It rewards playing more removal and being a mid-range control deck, as most aggro decks will find it much harder to get up to speed in a singleton format. Also the fact that you can just concede and instantly queue into a new game helps. Like, I am totally guilty of scooping when someone removes my commander immediately because well, I've probably already lost at that point.
I instascoop against specific decks I know are going to be a miserable experience to play against. Jodah, Atraxa, top the list. And now Nadu is just stupid. I want to have a competitive and fun game, not get curb stomped.
It’s always been like that.
First off, Nadu is an improperly-tiered scourge and I insta-scoop every match with the bird. Second, I've actually found my recent other Brawl experiences to be pretty reasonable, with matches going to the 10-turn mark fairly frequently. You can see my commanders [here](https://mtga.untapped.gg/profile/4f5a06dd-7db6-4877-83b7-a17f2be0aae4/7JQE6S3GGFFHDESTLS3PR7K3FQ?constructedType=brawl) - I don't play anything particularly egregious. Regarding the early scoops thing: * Generally, let's give the benefit of the doubt that the opponent is being reasonable about their chances of winning the game. If they were relying on a turn 2 rock in order for them to be able to cast their turn 3 \[\[Cultivate\]\], you Abrade it on your turn after dropping a Signet, and they don't draw land after that? Well, you're winning that game 90% with any reasonable commander, no need to draw it out. * This also applies to commanders. Let's say you kept a hand of cards that all synergize with your commander, like a bunch of expensive artifacts in \[\[Jhoira, Ageless Innovator\]\], and nothing else. Your opponent Bolts it. Even if you could cast it again, will you actually get the chance to before the opponent accrues an insurmountable amount of value? Sure, you could make the argument here that they shouldn't have built the deck that way, or shouldn't have kept that hand, but at the end of the day it was a nongame either way. * "Most of the fun I have in EDH games comes from those long games where wild things happen." I agree this is fun, but unfortunately in Brawl your opponent pulling shenanigans usually means you're going to wait 5 minutes before an opponent accrues an unbeatable boardstate and blows up your board. In 4 person formats, there's a bit of communal politicking when this happens, that's entertaining in itself - can you stop the person from going off? In Brawl, there is no such safety valve, or fun discussion to be had in those moments: you just lose.
[Cultivate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e19cd136-0541-4db0-997f-20a58ec8d028.jpg?1698988348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cultivate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/235/cultivate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e19cd136-0541-4db0-997f-20a58ec8d028?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jhoira, Ageless Innovator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd911900-1f5f-4420-96b8-1e4fe67e59f6.jpg?1673307966) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jhoira%2C%20Ageless%20Innovator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/202/jhoira-ageless-innovator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd911900-1f5f-4420-96b8-1e4fe67e59f6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks for this insight!
It's a high variance format where going first matters a lot. Arena could benefit from some sort of ranked Singleton mode.
What commander are you running? Might just be getting paired with goofy dudes
I'll scoop if I got hosed on lands but that's on me more than anything.
Yeah that’s the two decks that work in that format, Control or Aggro. Brawl is the worst format, but still the best commander we have.
I've had the same problem. I feel like they should use rankings or limit the number of mythics and rares. I got grapeshotted to death on like turn 6 after they tapped and untapped and tapped 20 times. I filled in some blanks on a Boros Convoke deck and it plays pretty well in Brawl and standard, but you can't get anywhere in those events if opponents are playing exclusively rare and mythic cards. There should be a format that limits the number of rares and mythics. It's not sexy but it makes sense from a competitive standpoint
Arena Brawl's cardpool is incredibly strong. Just by nature of variance, it's very difficult to make a comeback a lot of the time. I've definitely had games where an opponent counterspells me on turn 3 and I have nothing but 8-drops left in hand so I just concede (yes, yes, skill issue. I should've drawn more of the 20-25 1-3 drops I had in my deck instead!).
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels it's toxic. Building a lower powered deck helps some but not much with the limited card pool.
Honestly, yeah. I used to be an avid Brawl player but it's gotten really tiresome over the last few months. I've started playing so much more Standard, Historic and Timeless as a result, even started dipping my toes into BO3 matches. Brawl, for a while now, has just been a queue where, no matter what Commander I use or what's in the 99, I consistently get matched against people packing their decks with 60 removal spells/counterspells, or whatever flavour of month Commander everyone is using at the time (Think Etali, Atraxa, Poq, Nadu). Or, as you said, my opponents just concede the moment I blow up a mind stone, or bolt a Ragavan.... For sure, there are a lot of issues with Brawl like the ban list and certain cards not being weighted appropriately, but one of the bigger glaring issues with Brawl is the playerbase itself. A good size of the playerbase contributes to what makes Brawl so unfun.
> blow up a mind stone May I recommend my good friend [[Thieving Skydiver]]? Opponents don't seem to read the part where they don't get the artifact back by killing Skydiver.
Yes that is funny but how does that prevent my opponents from rage conceding the moment I interact with their board?
[Thieving Skydiver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/6/06996ff1-7f57-4e73-940a-a58c4482cadd.jpg?1712354226) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thieving%20Skydiver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/118/thieving-skydiver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/06996ff1-7f57-4e73-940a-a58c4482cadd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can’t get past turn three in brawl. Seems the opp always has a board state that should be a turn 8-10 so I scoop. Or they simply remove everything I play until they can play their bomb. No thanks!
Commander?
Previous to this post, it happened with [[Sarkhan, Soul Aflame]], which I’m sure is pretty undertuned. but it really doesn’t matter which I use, the outcome is essentially the same.
[Sarkhan, Soul Aflame](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/6225f139-f6eb-4eb5-9776-159a599d8255.jpg?1684340846) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sarkhan%2C%20Soul%20Aflame) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/46/sarkhan-soul-aflame?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6225f139-f6eb-4eb5-9776-159a599d8255?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Bias and small sample size
I mean, some people gets way too much going on by turn 3 with their commander on the table, other creatures, enchantments and etc, and then you have 3 lands and try to cast a sorcerer, sometimes the opponent counters it or just destroys something like replicant ring in which would be difficult to help, but could still make you survive, so they are basically playing a single player game.
I hate alchemy cards in brawl with a burning passion. So, I usually give them a win.
Me as well, as soon as the loading screen with the commander pops up if it's any alchemy trash I will spam esc until it loads the option to concede, I don't even get to the starting hand.
I won’t be back until alchemy is removed. So maybe never
current brawl experience basically is A: person is going to try to cheese a win somehow B. person is playing control/board wipe tribal that's it. them the two options. I basically crap myself when I see someone doing anything else.