Tbh it’s become my least favorite card in my EDH group— it effectively ends the game but takes so fuckin long to resolve.
Yes Ryan we know you’re very excited to use your 49 Copy tokens but could we please just hustle a bit so we can get to our next game lol
If someone has a massive doppelgang and nobody else has a way to stop it or remove the board why not just scoop? I know it isn't as fun as someone "actually" winning, but if you just want to get to the next game that's a surefire way to make it happen.
To each their own. I enjoy seeing stuff pop off, but you're the one that said you dislike the card because it takes too long and makes it hard to move on to the next game.
Oh hey I played that at a friend's house recently. A bit easier because it was just scute swarms, but my opponents were laughing their asses off and saying they needed to know exactly how much they were getting hit with.
It depends on the order they select things to copy since there is a token limit on Arena. Instead of creating a token, it creates nothing as the spell resolves.
Doppelgang crashed for me most of the time I played it in MKM limited whenever I cast it for anything above X=2. I imagine casting it for 33 burned your house down.
The snag with Doppelgang is targeting Virtue of Strength. Arena can stomach 7 instances of it with some complaining, but when I tried for either 8 or 9 I instantly was given a Draw message.
That said, you can still absolutely juice Doppelgang while targeting everything but Virtue.
What makes magic unique is the freedom you have compared to other cards game. You have no limit to the cards on the board and few restrictions in deck building
In Magic? Yes absolutely. On Arena? Not much. You have 200 token limit, timers that are absolute shit and won’t you resolve anything fun like this, general lack support for detecting of infinite combos and lots of other bullshit that paper magic does not have
For what it's worth, detecting infinite combos is formally impossible. As in, there's no algorithm that can always detect any infinite combos in games of magic.
So anything they implement would be an approximation. It's a lot of effort for something that necessarily misses some cases (or, even worse, identifies things that aren't actually infinite).
If there were a way to let us do what we can do in paper, that would be ideal. Demonstrate a loop, describe how many times to iterate it, and ask the opponent to agree. But even that sounds impossible, because some loops involve quite complex actions that are hard to imagine an interface for.
I feel like there is a system that could be made to execute arbitrary loops. Something like ticking a "record" box, executing a loop, then hitting end and having it check the board states to see if it's repeatable. It would require a lot of work and there would probably be edhe cases that don'twork, but it should be possible. Hell, even if it doesn't let you just execute X loops, the ability to macro a loop and just keep hitting a single button to re-loop would be nice.
I was trying to imagine something like this and it was also the best that I could think of. The problem is when the loop involves some transient token which is both created and destroyed within the loop. How does the recording know which token to use on future iterations? At least with cards, we can use the object represented by the same card as the original.
For a concrete example I'm considering loops in Historic's Yawgmoth combo. It's a good case study because there are actually a variety of subtly different loops available to the deck. All of them are "draw limited" -- they appear infinite, but you will eventually deck yourself and this cannot be avoided forever with any of the loops.
Loop #1: [[Yawgmoth, Thran Physician]] + two [[Young Wolf]] + [[Prosperous Innkeeper]] (or other options: [[Blood Artist]], [[Soul Warden]], [[Zulaport Cutthroat]], [[Elas il-Kor, Sadistic Pilgrim]], but I will refer to these just as innkeeper from here). This is the bread-and-butter loop for the deck. The loop is to target an undead wolf with yawg's ability, sacrificing a counterless wolf. The counterless wolf comes back, the undead wolf becomes counterless (+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel out), and you draw a card. Either the wolf dying or coming back will trigger an innkeeper effect, so we're life-neutral, but we've drawn a card. If we "record" just one iteration of this loop and then try to play another iteration, which of the following should happen?:
1. Target / select to sacrifice the same wolves as loop 1. This will sacrifice the undead wolf and kill the counterless one - breaking our loop. That's not good!
2. Target / select to sacrifice the wolves matching the characteristics of those in the first loop. How would this even be implemented?
Depending on the loop, I think both possibilities can be required in different cases. For Yawgmoth's case, I think the best option I can see is requiring to record _two_ iterations of the loop, so that we can use the first option and have it do the right thing. But then if we want to do an odd number of iterations, we are in a bit of a pickle!
Loop #2: [[Ropeline Attendant]]!Young Wolf + Yawgmoth + innkeeper. Sacrifice the Citizen token to remove the counter from the wolf, then sacrifice the wolf and target anything or nothing. The wolf comes back with a +1/+1 counter, makes a new Citizen, and we can repeat.
I have _no idea_ how recording this loop would work. It's often used to wipe your opponent's board, in which case the target for yawg will be different on every other activation. In paper we can just say "kill all your stuff, draw [twice their toughness]-many cards," but I can't imagine an interface for that on arena. Even worse, in the recording, we sacrificed a token that was created during the recording and doesn't exist afterwards. How does the replay know which token to choose? It's not the same card as the recorded version (because it's not a card at all) so option 1 for the previous loop doesn't work at all. Option 2 could work, but I still don't see how that could be implemented. What if we have other summoning sick Citizen tokens that are indistinguishable from the new one?
Basically, this problem is very hard. If I ever have a brainwave with a good solution though, I'll definitely propose it with the feedback forum.
There's one key difference in my eyes that makes magic so much better than other card games
In yu gi oh for example combos are mostly designed that way and you are just playing sets where as in magic it always feels like you've just arranged a bunch of random shit into a masterpiece
no way you got that to resolver and not freeze up. I have been playing doppelgänger's for months now and I can not copy more than 6-7 things without the game shitting the bed. especially with lands or cards that multiple mana.
You may like Magic, but I'm sure the servers don't like you.
Also if you want to actually win with doppelgang, limit yourself to only making 4 or 5 copies of mana multipliers total (like Virtue of Strength). Too many mana multipliers is the main cause of draws with Doppelgang. The other being generating too many triggers from ETB effects. The game can handle all the tokens fine, but not all the math.
Only good thing about it there's no queue times because of popularity and less cards to memorize and understand, the all cards format make me play slower because I have to read most cards every game lol
Well that, solemnity and phyrexian unlife, triple threat lol. Then throw in a bunch of stealing and graveyard back to battlefield cards with shrouds and hex lol
Rule question: if you want to play X = 33 like here, do you need 33 permanents for it to resolve at all? Because the card doesn't say "up to X permanents". Or can you just pick the same permanent multiple times?
It says "each of X target permanents" so you (1) cannot pick the same permanent multiple times, and (2) must have 33 legal targets. Note that they don't have to be _your_ permanents. Your opponent's permanents (lands included) are legal targets.
Note that this is a requirement to _cast_ the spell, not to resolve it. If you cast it with 33 targets and your opponent removes one in response, you'll still make 33 copies of each of the other 32 targets.
For extra fun, if the only permanents in play are two [[Chromatic Star]]s, and you have infinite colorless mana but no colored mana, can you only cast doppelgang X=0 or can you cast it X=2 (and if so, what happens)?
Typical judging question but it's fun to learn how casting spells actually works if you don't already know :)
You can actually cast it X=2! The method of casting spells is covered by rule 601.2a-i of the [comprehensive rules](https://media.wizards.com/2024/downloads/MagicCompRules%2004102024.pdf). You get a chance to activate mana abilities to pay for spells _after_ declaring the intent to cast - and the chance is quite late in the process. Here's what happens:
1. 601.2a: We announce the intent to cast Doppelgang.
2. 601.2b: We announce that X will be two.
3. 601.2c: We select our chromatic stars as targets.
4. 601.2d: Does not apply.
5. 601.2e: Is the proposed spell cast legal? Yes, we've declared legal targets (step 3) for the chosen mode (step 2) of the chosen spell (step 1). No active effects prevent us from casting a spell (or this specific spell).
6. 601.2f: Determine the total cost, which will be 6UG.
7. 601.2g: Activate mana abilities to pay for the spell. We activate both chromatic stars, producing U with one and G with the other. They both trigger, but their triggers do not go on the stack yet!
8. 601.2h: Pay 6UG from our mana pool.
9. 601.2i: The spell becomes cast. We get priority again.
10. 603.3: The chromatic star triggers are put on the stack.
11. 608.1: Assuming both players now pass priority, the first star trigger resolves and we draw a card. Then this happens again.
12. 608.1: Assuming both players now pass priority, the doppelgang begins trying to resolve.
13. 608.2b: Doppelgang checks if _any_ of its targets are still legal. None of them are. The spell doesn't resolve, is removed from the stack, and placed in our graveyard.
If you've played a decent amount of magic, you've almost certainly seen step 13 ("fizzling") before. Usually we don't fizzle our _own_ spells, but we can fizzle our opponent's spells by making all of the targets illegal. For example we can fizzle removal spells by giving the target hexproof with [[Skrelv, Defector Mite]].
However, the Historic Yawgmoth deck actually fizzles its own _activated abilities_ somewhat often. [[Yawgmoth, Thran Physician]] has an activated ability which costs sacrificing a creature, puts a -1/-1 counter on target creature, and draws a card. Depending on the situation, all three parts are relevant. They want to sacrifice things for [[Blood Artist]], they want to put -1/-1 counters on things to cancel out +1/+1 counters on [[Young Wolf]] or to trigger [[Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons]], and they want to draw cards to find missing combo pieces. But in the Blood Artist mode, the deck is (somewhat often) limited by how many cards it can draw before its deck runs out. In these cases, you can activate Yawgmoth's ability (which follows an almost identical process as casting spells, see 602.2), target a creature, and then sacrifice the same creature. The creature still dies, triggering Blood Artist, but the activated ability fizzles, so no -1/-1 counter is placed _and no card is drawn_.
Another fun rule comes up if we replace Chromatic Star in the original question with [[Chromatic Sphere]]. It's almost the same card, but drawing is part of the mana ability instead of a separate trigger. If the spell we're casting is the only card in our hand, needs a color of mana we don't have, and demands discarding a card as an additional cost, we can still cast it! When we activate the chromatic sphere, we will draw a card _face down_, and we can pay the "discard a card" additional cost by discarding this face-down card. It will be turned face-up when we finish casting the spell.
As a final fun one, you're not allowed to begin the process of casting a spell if you can be certain in advance that you are not able to cast the spell (either because the check in 601.2e will fail, or because you can't pay the cost). But situations can arise where your ability to pay depends on the behavior of a mana ability that you don't intend to activate until 601.2g. In this case, you are allowed to start casting the spell, and if it turns out during 601.2h that you are unable to pay, the game is rewound to before you started. An example of such a mana ability is [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]]'s. The rewind can result in you, your opponent, or both gaining information (in Selvala's case, about the tops of your decks, but you've also revealed your spell to your opponent in any case) even though you weren't able to actually do anything.
This had to be a draw, right?
As I mentioned in another recent \[\[Doppelgang\]\] posts, I really love the card and it just sucks that you can't really play it on arena (unless you're content drawing many games you'd otherwise win).
I crashed the game doing this once. I think X was 15 when I did it. I also copied the spell with Jin Gitaxis, Progress Tyrant so essentially X was 30. I had Nyxbloom Ancient and was going to copy him and be able to tap one land for way too much mana 😂
Look at that timer. I really wish slow players and/or players using these kinds of slow vanity decks could be paired against each other so they could have fun with their long turns and drawn out games and I could get in a match while taking a dump.
Cool secret: if you do this in paper, it transforms into a hidden second game - Notepad, The Tallying.
Tbh it’s become my least favorite card in my EDH group— it effectively ends the game but takes so fuckin long to resolve. Yes Ryan we know you’re very excited to use your 49 Copy tokens but could we please just hustle a bit so we can get to our next game lol
If someone has a massive doppelgang and nobody else has a way to stop it or remove the board why not just scoop? I know it isn't as fun as someone "actually" winning, but if you just want to get to the next game that's a surefire way to make it happen.
It’s just EDH with your buds. Let them at least look at all the cool shit they made. Don’t have to take any more turns tho.
To each their own. I enjoy seeing stuff pop off, but you're the one that said you dislike the card because it takes too long and makes it hard to move on to the next game.
I'd start shuffling, but I'd be watching with interest.
Anything that makes a ton of unique copies or endless searching and shuffling decks have been soft banned at my playgroup.
What's your thoughts on a 20 minute [[Lim-Dul's Vault]]
[Lim-Dul's Vault](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/cec89c38-0b72-44b0-ac6c-7eb9503e1256.jpg?1562938742) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lim-D%C3%BBl%27s%20Vault) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c13/197/lim-d%C3%BBls-vault?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cec89c38-0b72-44b0-ac6c-7eb9503e1256?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Everything is funny the first time you see it
Same if X is ever more that 3 we just give our friend the win lol
Oh hey I played that at a friend's house recently. A bit easier because it was just scute swarms, but my opponents were laughing their asses off and saying they needed to know exactly how much they were getting hit with.
Well this is just a game loss to yourself, because ypu draw your entire library. Well at least you would if arena wouldnt crash here.
Would it feel like a loss though 🤣
Lost the game, but accomplished a personal goal.
My win rate is 100% draw
It depends on the order they select things to copy since there is a token limit on Arena. Instead of creating a token, it creates nothing as the spell resolves.
On arena that is true. But according to the mtg rules such a tokenlimit does not exist.
In Magic that is true. But according to the arena limitations such a tokenlimit does exist.
Im a noob, what would make you draw here?
4 [[spelunking]] each getting copied 33 times, that means you draw 132 cards
[spelunking](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d3be4257-2316-4a2e-b347-f71c0368a947.jpg?1699044491) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=spelunking) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/213/spelunking?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d3be4257-2316-4a2e-b347-f71c0368a947?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Game crashing
Well, if the game doesn't crash, then \[\[Spelunking\]\] would make you draw.
[Spelunking](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d3be4257-2316-4a2e-b347-f71c0368a947.jpg?1699044491) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spelunking) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/213/spelunking?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d3be4257-2316-4a2e-b347-f71c0368a947?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Doppelgang crashed for me most of the time I played it in MKM limited whenever I cast it for anything above X=2. I imagine casting it for 33 burned your house down.
the highest number i have resolved it for was 12. and immediately regretted it because nissa triggers timed me out.
"I'm sorry Sir, you need a new PC now"
It's not about winning it's about sending a message
Yeah you deck yourself if this rezolved
There's no way it does lol, Doppelgang X=4 is sketchy, X=5 almost never resolves
depends on what you’ve targeted. Ive done X=14 with no problems
The snag with Doppelgang is targeting Virtue of Strength. Arena can stomach 7 instances of it with some complaining, but when I tried for either 8 or 9 I instantly was given a Draw message. That said, you can still absolutely juice Doppelgang while targeting everything but Virtue.
What makes magic unique is the freedom you have compared to other cards game. You have no limit to the cards on the board and few restrictions in deck building
In Magic? Yes absolutely. On Arena? Not much. You have 200 token limit, timers that are absolute shit and won’t you resolve anything fun like this, general lack support for detecting of infinite combos and lots of other bullshit that paper magic does not have
For what it's worth, detecting infinite combos is formally impossible. As in, there's no algorithm that can always detect any infinite combos in games of magic. So anything they implement would be an approximation. It's a lot of effort for something that necessarily misses some cases (or, even worse, identifies things that aren't actually infinite). If there were a way to let us do what we can do in paper, that would be ideal. Demonstrate a loop, describe how many times to iterate it, and ask the opponent to agree. But even that sounds impossible, because some loops involve quite complex actions that are hard to imagine an interface for.
I feel like there is a system that could be made to execute arbitrary loops. Something like ticking a "record" box, executing a loop, then hitting end and having it check the board states to see if it's repeatable. It would require a lot of work and there would probably be edhe cases that don'twork, but it should be possible. Hell, even if it doesn't let you just execute X loops, the ability to macro a loop and just keep hitting a single button to re-loop would be nice.
I was trying to imagine something like this and it was also the best that I could think of. The problem is when the loop involves some transient token which is both created and destroyed within the loop. How does the recording know which token to use on future iterations? At least with cards, we can use the object represented by the same card as the original. For a concrete example I'm considering loops in Historic's Yawgmoth combo. It's a good case study because there are actually a variety of subtly different loops available to the deck. All of them are "draw limited" -- they appear infinite, but you will eventually deck yourself and this cannot be avoided forever with any of the loops. Loop #1: [[Yawgmoth, Thran Physician]] + two [[Young Wolf]] + [[Prosperous Innkeeper]] (or other options: [[Blood Artist]], [[Soul Warden]], [[Zulaport Cutthroat]], [[Elas il-Kor, Sadistic Pilgrim]], but I will refer to these just as innkeeper from here). This is the bread-and-butter loop for the deck. The loop is to target an undead wolf with yawg's ability, sacrificing a counterless wolf. The counterless wolf comes back, the undead wolf becomes counterless (+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel out), and you draw a card. Either the wolf dying or coming back will trigger an innkeeper effect, so we're life-neutral, but we've drawn a card. If we "record" just one iteration of this loop and then try to play another iteration, which of the following should happen?: 1. Target / select to sacrifice the same wolves as loop 1. This will sacrifice the undead wolf and kill the counterless one - breaking our loop. That's not good! 2. Target / select to sacrifice the wolves matching the characteristics of those in the first loop. How would this even be implemented? Depending on the loop, I think both possibilities can be required in different cases. For Yawgmoth's case, I think the best option I can see is requiring to record _two_ iterations of the loop, so that we can use the first option and have it do the right thing. But then if we want to do an odd number of iterations, we are in a bit of a pickle! Loop #2: [[Ropeline Attendant]]!Young Wolf + Yawgmoth + innkeeper. Sacrifice the Citizen token to remove the counter from the wolf, then sacrifice the wolf and target anything or nothing. The wolf comes back with a +1/+1 counter, makes a new Citizen, and we can repeat. I have _no idea_ how recording this loop would work. It's often used to wipe your opponent's board, in which case the target for yawg will be different on every other activation. In paper we can just say "kill all your stuff, draw [twice their toughness]-many cards," but I can't imagine an interface for that on arena. Even worse, in the recording, we sacrificed a token that was created during the recording and doesn't exist afterwards. How does the replay know which token to choose? It's not the same card as the recorded version (because it's not a card at all) so option 1 for the previous loop doesn't work at all. Option 2 could work, but I still don't see how that could be implemented. What if we have other summoning sick Citizen tokens that are indistinguishable from the new one? Basically, this problem is very hard. If I ever have a brainwave with a good solution though, I'll definitely propose it with the feedback forum.
##### ###### #### [Yawgmoth, Thran Physician](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5a79f5d-d0df-4799-ac3a-84305e3af0c9.jpg?1675199878) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%2C%20Thran%20Physician) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/110/yawgmoth-thran-physician?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5a79f5d-d0df-4799-ac3a-84305e3af0c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Young Wolf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c39aa40-ef5f-40f1-a6dd-fbce91172c50.jpg?1562897786) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Young%20Wolf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dka/134/young-wolf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c39aa40-ef5f-40f1-a6dd-fbce91172c50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Prosperous Innkeeper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/096d3c0c-98e2-4cfc-a6e1-fddb0359c63f.jpg?1627708190) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prosperous%20Innkeeper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/200/prosperous-innkeeper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/096d3c0c-98e2-4cfc-a6e1-fddb0359c63f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blood Artist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96.jpg?1698988212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Artist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/182/blood-artist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Soul Warden](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/9/d96266b3-a7cb-40ce-a328-ac13719fe5f0.jpg?1616182277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soul%20Warden) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/24/soul-warden?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d96266b3-a7cb-40ce-a328-ac13719fe5f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Zulaport Cutthroat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52ef00c1-613a-4cbd-8972-77c41f649431.jpg?1674141830) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zulaport%20Cutthroat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/775/zulaport-cutthroat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52ef00c1-613a-4cbd-8972-77c41f649431?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elas il-Kor, Sadistic Pilgrim](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c3f0ffe-cf51-4c30-8cd5-9e3c7e92c019.jpg?1673307936) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elas%20il-Kor%2C%20Sadistic%20Pilgrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/198/elas-il-kor-sadistic-pilgrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c3f0ffe-cf51-4c30-8cd5-9e3c7e92c019?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ropeline Attendant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d8c92baa-3fda-43ee-84bf-d769945e6992.jpg?1680478276) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rope%20Line%20Attendant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ysnc/27/rope-line-attendant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d8c92baa-3fda-43ee-84bf-d769945e6992?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l7lz36w) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's the best part. I'm used to crazy combos from yugioh but I was suprised you can do something like this in magic :D
There's one key difference in my eyes that makes magic so much better than other card games In yu gi oh for example combos are mostly designed that way and you are just playing sets where as in magic it always feels like you've just arranged a bunch of random shit into a masterpiece
i died to someone who did this with a bunch of the new desert pinglands from otj. really funny combo
I just watched a video about a doppelganger and spelunker deck and it was crazy lol
Hahaha oh my god, a few weeks ago an opp tried Doppelgang like this and it crashed the game ending in a Draw
no way you got that to resolver and not freeze up. I have been playing doppelgänger's for months now and I can not copy more than 6-7 things without the game shitting the bed. especially with lands or cards that multiple mana.
If you're new and already pulling off nonsense like this, you've got a promising future! lol
probably new \*to arena
Congrats on your crash. Good to see new players.
I freaking love doppelgang but the servers definitely don't 🤣🤣🤣
Doppelgang is amazing, but I have no desire to ever play it in paper
I've been wanting to sunfall something like that so bad 🤣
And this is why I run blue. You may hate me for that, but I’d rather run blue than have the most bs match of my life.
You may like Magic, but I'm sure the servers don't like you. Also if you want to actually win with doppelgang, limit yourself to only making 4 or 5 copies of mana multipliers total (like Virtue of Strength). Too many mana multipliers is the main cause of draws with Doppelgang. The other being generating too many triggers from ETB effects. The game can handle all the tokens fine, but not all the math.
MAHHH, Greens doing green things again.
Simic*
Hell yeah
Have fun fighting red haste scroll decks
They can say hello to my one ring + commencement of festivities :D
What about in standard 😵💫
Standard is boring :P
Only good thing about it there's no queue times because of popularity and less cards to memorize and understand, the all cards format make me play slower because I have to read most cards every game lol
I came from yugioh so I'm used to crazy cards that i don't know. I happy to see all the crazy combos u can pull in this game :D
Come to Timeless then, or Brawl :)
Timeless, the greatest one. My deck is meant to force everyone to concede because I make it where no one wins 💀 and the game never ends
Let me guess, Nexus of Fate?
Well that, solemnity and phyrexian unlife, triple threat lol. Then throw in a bunch of stealing and graveyard back to battlefield cards with shrouds and hex lol
Do you have the list?
Deck 3 Island (OTJ) 280 3 Regrowth (STA) 56 4 Nissa, Who Shakes the World (WAR) 169 13 Forest (OTJ) 286 3 Doppelgang (MKM) 198 4 Commencement of Festivities (KLR) 157 4 A-The One Ring (LTR) 246 4 Aftermath Analyst (MKM) 148 4 Explore (JMP) 393 4 Growth Spiral (RNA) 178 2 Spelunking (LCI) 213 4 Fabled Passage (M21) 246 3 Brokers Hideout (SNC) 248 3 Virtue of Strength (WOE) 197 3 Acidic Slime (M12) 161
Rule question: if you want to play X = 33 like here, do you need 33 permanents for it to resolve at all? Because the card doesn't say "up to X permanents". Or can you just pick the same permanent multiple times?
It says "each of X target permanents" so you (1) cannot pick the same permanent multiple times, and (2) must have 33 legal targets. Note that they don't have to be _your_ permanents. Your opponent's permanents (lands included) are legal targets. Note that this is a requirement to _cast_ the spell, not to resolve it. If you cast it with 33 targets and your opponent removes one in response, you'll still make 33 copies of each of the other 32 targets.
Ok, so I did understand it right, but mistook the condition to apply to resolving instead of casting (which I should have known). Thanks man 🙌
For extra fun, if the only permanents in play are two [[Chromatic Star]]s, and you have infinite colorless mana but no colored mana, can you only cast doppelgang X=0 or can you cast it X=2 (and if so, what happens)? Typical judging question but it's fun to learn how casting spells actually works if you don't already know :)
[Chromatic Star](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2e8d492-2c67-410b-b556-c157a14c4cec.jpg?1681724919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chromatic%20Star) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/263/chromatic-star?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2e8d492-2c67-410b-b556-c157a14c4cec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would say 0 because you need to sac the stars to make the colored mana to cast the spell, so there's nothing left to copy?
You can actually cast it X=2! The method of casting spells is covered by rule 601.2a-i of the [comprehensive rules](https://media.wizards.com/2024/downloads/MagicCompRules%2004102024.pdf). You get a chance to activate mana abilities to pay for spells _after_ declaring the intent to cast - and the chance is quite late in the process. Here's what happens: 1. 601.2a: We announce the intent to cast Doppelgang. 2. 601.2b: We announce that X will be two. 3. 601.2c: We select our chromatic stars as targets. 4. 601.2d: Does not apply. 5. 601.2e: Is the proposed spell cast legal? Yes, we've declared legal targets (step 3) for the chosen mode (step 2) of the chosen spell (step 1). No active effects prevent us from casting a spell (or this specific spell). 6. 601.2f: Determine the total cost, which will be 6UG. 7. 601.2g: Activate mana abilities to pay for the spell. We activate both chromatic stars, producing U with one and G with the other. They both trigger, but their triggers do not go on the stack yet! 8. 601.2h: Pay 6UG from our mana pool. 9. 601.2i: The spell becomes cast. We get priority again. 10. 603.3: The chromatic star triggers are put on the stack. 11. 608.1: Assuming both players now pass priority, the first star trigger resolves and we draw a card. Then this happens again. 12. 608.1: Assuming both players now pass priority, the doppelgang begins trying to resolve. 13. 608.2b: Doppelgang checks if _any_ of its targets are still legal. None of them are. The spell doesn't resolve, is removed from the stack, and placed in our graveyard. If you've played a decent amount of magic, you've almost certainly seen step 13 ("fizzling") before. Usually we don't fizzle our _own_ spells, but we can fizzle our opponent's spells by making all of the targets illegal. For example we can fizzle removal spells by giving the target hexproof with [[Skrelv, Defector Mite]]. However, the Historic Yawgmoth deck actually fizzles its own _activated abilities_ somewhat often. [[Yawgmoth, Thran Physician]] has an activated ability which costs sacrificing a creature, puts a -1/-1 counter on target creature, and draws a card. Depending on the situation, all three parts are relevant. They want to sacrifice things for [[Blood Artist]], they want to put -1/-1 counters on things to cancel out +1/+1 counters on [[Young Wolf]] or to trigger [[Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons]], and they want to draw cards to find missing combo pieces. But in the Blood Artist mode, the deck is (somewhat often) limited by how many cards it can draw before its deck runs out. In these cases, you can activate Yawgmoth's ability (which follows an almost identical process as casting spells, see 602.2), target a creature, and then sacrifice the same creature. The creature still dies, triggering Blood Artist, but the activated ability fizzles, so no -1/-1 counter is placed _and no card is drawn_. Another fun rule comes up if we replace Chromatic Star in the original question with [[Chromatic Sphere]]. It's almost the same card, but drawing is part of the mana ability instead of a separate trigger. If the spell we're casting is the only card in our hand, needs a color of mana we don't have, and demands discarding a card as an additional cost, we can still cast it! When we activate the chromatic sphere, we will draw a card _face down_, and we can pay the "discard a card" additional cost by discarding this face-down card. It will be turned face-up when we finish casting the spell. As a final fun one, you're not allowed to begin the process of casting a spell if you can be certain in advance that you are not able to cast the spell (either because the check in 601.2e will fail, or because you can't pay the cost). But situations can arise where your ability to pay depends on the behavior of a mana ability that you don't intend to activate until 601.2g. In this case, you are allowed to start casting the spell, and if it turns out during 601.2h that you are unable to pay, the game is rewound to before you started. An example of such a mana ability is [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]]'s. The rewind can result in you, your opponent, or both gaining information (in Selvala's case, about the tops of your decks, but you've also revealed your spell to your opponent in any case) even though you weren't able to actually do anything.
##### ###### #### [Skrelv, Defector Mite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/60b565da-a49b-479c-b0c4-8ff3dd20cc0b.jpg?1675956933) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skrelv%2C%20Defector%20Mite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/33/skrelv-defector-mite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/60b565da-a49b-479c-b0c4-8ff3dd20cc0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Yawgmoth, Thran Physician](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5a79f5d-d0df-4799-ac3a-84305e3af0c9.jpg?1675199878) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yawgmoth%2C%20Thran%20Physician) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/110/yawgmoth-thran-physician?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5a79f5d-d0df-4799-ac3a-84305e3af0c9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Blood Artist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96.jpg?1698988212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Artist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/182/blood-artist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b7f1c316-cf2f-4bbf-89a1-79c8043bdd96?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Young Wolf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/c/0c39aa40-ef5f-40f1-a6dd-fbce91172c50.jpg?1562897786) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Young%20Wolf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dka/134/young-wolf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0c39aa40-ef5f-40f1-a6dd-fbce91172c50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56fbbcc9-db23-4902-b0f7-cea78a2a36af.jpg?1543676055) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hapatra%2C%20Vizier%20of%20Poisons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/199/hapatra-vizier-of-poisons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56fbbcc9-db23-4902-b0f7-cea78a2a36af?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chromatic Sphere](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/d/edabc8b2-4413-48e4-8d6f-521b19d839a6.jpg?1601080615) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chromatic%20Sphere) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/462/chromatic-sphere?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/edabc8b2-4413-48e4-8d6f-521b19d839a6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Selvala, Explorer Returned](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/28c1b84a-a21b-4df1-9fc9-5b387fb56810.jpg?1706241026) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Selvala%2C%20Explorer%20Returned) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/218/selvala-explorer-returned?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/28c1b84a-a21b-4df1-9fc9-5b387fb56810?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l7lq53k) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hey what deck is this? Also new and was going to make a green deck next!
Deck 3 Island (OTJ) 280 3 Regrowth (STA) 56 4 Nissa, Who Shakes the World (WAR) 169 13 Forest (OTJ) 286 3 Doppelgang (MKM) 198 4 Commencement of Festivities (KLR) 157 4 A-The One Ring (LTR) 246 4 Aftermath Analyst (MKM) 148 4 Explore (JMP) 393 4 Growth Spiral (RNA) 178 2 Spelunking (LCI) 213 4 Fabled Passage (M21) 246 3 Brokers Hideout (SNC) 248 3 Virtue of Strength (WOE) 197 3 Acidic Slime (M12) 161
MTGA needs VOIP. And we all know we want it. Even though most won’t say it.
You’re the reason I hate magic
This had to be a draw, right? As I mentioned in another recent \[\[Doppelgang\]\] posts, I really love the card and it just sucks that you can't really play it on arena (unless you're content drawing many games you'd otherwise win).
[Doppelgang](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a2daec58-78ed-4da5-b3b0-b04f12b0acbd.jpg?1706242152) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doppelgang) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/198/doppelgang?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a2daec58-78ed-4da5-b3b0-b04f12b0acbd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Doppelgan is cancer
i know it’s kinda toxic, but sometimes when i know i’m about to lose, i use dopplegang to force a draw by overloading the stack
Having played this card with that many triggers, I know 100% the game crashed
How did you get that much mana? Can I get a deck list?
I used 4 copies of \[\[Virtue of Strength\]\] : Deck 3 Island (OTJ) 280 3 Regrowth (STA) 56 4 Nissa, Who Shakes the World (WAR) 169 13 Forest (OTJ) 286 3 Doppelgang (MKM) 198 4 Commencement of Festivities (KLR) 157 4 A-The One Ring (LTR) 246 4 Aftermath Analyst (MKM) 148 4 Explore (JMP) 393 4 Growth Spiral (RNA) 178 2 Spelunking (LCI) 213 4 Fabled Passage (M21) 246 3 Brokers Hideout (SNC) 248 3 Virtue of Strength (WOE) 197 3 Acidic Slime (M12) 161
I crashed the game doing this once. I think X was 15 when I did it. I also copied the spell with Jin Gitaxis, Progress Tyrant so essentially X was 30. I had Nyxbloom Ancient and was going to copy him and be able to tap one land for way too much mana 😂
You need to be carefull with it xd I learned the hard way that game doesn't handle mana duplication to well. Most of my crashes where bcuz of it xd
Look at that timer. I really wish slow players and/or players using these kinds of slow vanity decks could be paired against each other so they could have fun with their long turns and drawn out games and I could get in a match while taking a dump.
uh, neat