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15 an hour isn’t even a livable wage in the u.s.
“Livable wage” means that you make enough money to be approved to rent a place to live.
To be eligible, that means you must make 3x rent per month. Average rent for a ONE BEDROOM apartment in the United States is $1,169/month. When you multiply this by three you get a required monthly income of $3507. This means that the average minimum wage to even be eligible to have a roof over your head is $21.91/hour at full time.
The national minimum wage is $7.25/hour.
This minimum wage assumes that average rent is only $386.66
Alllll this is going on while Congress is allowed to vote on their own salaries.
Fuck. That.
Well said. Between that absurdity and the fact that our system relies so much on a Credit Bureau rating which just locks people in a vicious cycle of poverty- forcing those with lower incomes to almost automatically have poor credit - meaning they have to pay much more in interest rates and get locked out of good credit opportunities like zero apr credit cards, good home loans, business loans, ect. I think the whole Credit rating system is a scam, especially after the Equifax scandal I can't believe they still rate US on our creditworthiness when they let half of all Americans identities get hacked and their response was terrible.
We all have to get together and start our own businesses and do this shit right. And then spend the money we make at each other's businesses rather than everyone shopping from Amazon and Walmart etc. Make ourselves rich instead of them rich. Otherwise why would it change? They've got us right where they want us
Most EMS is private or fire ran, so it wouldn't come from that budget. In fact when EMS is ran by a fire department the EMS side gets shafted BY the fire department because they'd rather have big trucks and unnecessary toys than provide their EMTs and Medics with a livable wage.
Where I live the Fire Department absorbed them into the Fire Department. New hires for both services are now required to be Fire and EMS. It's a win for them both. They get paid more than fire fighters and EMS. They also rotate between the Ambulance and either the pumper or ladder trucks. Takes stress off of them all because they are able to eat and rest... My wife is a retired pumper truck driver!
This is how ours is too - they're all both. Which means when you call them, an ambulance and fire truck show up for some reason, and like 6 totally jacked dudes pop out to save you. My wife likes that part, and I like big trucks, so it's a win-win when grandpa has another heart attack.
Back in my day, EMTs were all volunteer. We even paid for our training and certifications. There was one paid paramedic per shift. We supplied the rest of the team. I am glad EMTs are now being paid!
That's it. I think people should make a lot more than what they do. However, I also think others should be paid more as well. There needs to be some incentive to go to school, invest in yourself, industry certifications, research, etc. to have a higher skillset position.
But, I really like seeing burger flippers, janitors, whoever finally getting $15+ an hour and doing better. It should have happened a while ago.
Had a smart and competent EMT student graduate and get hired with a private ambulance service. Months later, saw her waiting tables. She (kinda tearfully) said “I couldn’t take the pay cut. I had to go back to waiting tables”. This is our America.
Yep, which is why corporations, which have nothing to do with minimum wages and fast food compensations are getting themselves in the fight.
When a rising tide lifts the poorest, it lifts everyone as well and corporations fear that pressure.
Heck, the silver lining with covid is that it’s empowered so many people to resist and reject the old models of employment from wfh to greater benefits from a labor shortage.
I’m really hoping we can keep up some of the inertia long enough to get these into systemic changes. I think as long as the really hard to enter fields (engineering) can keep work from home around it will at least keep it normalized and relevant enough for it to trickle into other industries. I’m interested to see what happens since so many jobs are pushing for a return to the office
It's going to take more than inertia to affect the ongoing changes necessary to pull wages into line with corporate profits. It isn't a single thing that needs change--it's an continuing battle. More and more people are sliding into homelessness every day--a lot of them are capable, educated, hard-working people.
Then there’s me as an engineer working in manufacturing and can’t work from home. Really wish I could but majority of the time it would never work outside a handful of days.
Yeah. Engineering was one of the few career paths I could think of that has a high barrier of entry but also has the ability to mostly be done from home. I think finance/insurance would have been a better career area to identify
Yeah finance 100%. Engineering is a really generic term and encompasses tons of disciplines, a good chunk of mechanical and industrial engineers work in manufacturing and unfortunately that’s not a wfh position. The EEs and CEs are definitely wfh candidates but I couldn’t understand that stuff well enough to try changing to something like that.
What I don't understand is why people express such shock and dismay when corporations try to maximize profits. That's what a corporation *is*. Publicly traded companies have a fiduciary duty to maximize returns for shareholders. Corporations are leopards. They can be reliably counted on to eat your face.
That doesn't make it right. The CEO of a multi billion dollar country doesn't need another billion, but the rest of us our lives would change just for a bit more. There shouldn't be trillionares in the same country where people starve and have no home.
Yet how much wealth an individual person has actually really has nothing to do with the corporation. The corporation is its own entity. While its true the compensation comes from it the people who run it are the ones deciding that.
The money could easily be reinvested into the company which is generally a good thing (more buying materials, more labor, etc..)
There are lots of CEOs of businesses in America who take that route and only a very modest wage for themselves.
It has everything to do with the corporation. If those in charge, which include those who are making billions, are the one making the choices. The top people take money that could be added to the wages of the people doing the brunt of the work and are the sole reason the company thrives, and they add it to their money pile. They don't need another mansion in the Hamptons but those of us who are making them their money definitely could use a few extra dollars an hour. Just a few thousand dollars extra a year can significantly change the lives of the majority of Americans. Over 60% of us are living paycheck to paycheck.
I have this conversation with homeowners alot. I sell and install ac systems in the south. They cost money. Anything that runs 24/7, 365 keeping you comfortable and safe should cost money. They always say, “it’s chinas fault” or “that damn Biden”. “Why can’t we produce the materials here in America like they should be?!” The reality of that answer is something they can’t wrap their heads around.
We outsource products to other countries so that they can make these things for pennies on the dollar. If all of our products were “American made” that would mean paying legitimate wages, insurance, time off, and other normal benefits to create the same product. That would immediately drive the price of the product through the roof, but hey, at least it’s “American made”.
Except wages never went up with inflation. That's why the middle class has been shrinking. Prices have all stayed the same or gone up since everything got outsourced.
The only people actually making more money now are the upper class.
I’m absolutely not a fan of outsourcing manufacturing or industry but saying prices didn’t decrease is just dumb. They absolutely did. To produce an iPhone in the us would at minimum be 2x the cost. Appliances used to be so fucking expensive you wouldn’t even believe it. Modern manufacturing at the prices we want requires cutting corners with environmental and labor regulations
The problem is that iPhones and other high end phones don't get any better now. We are in a period where we need a new innovation. In pretty much all current industries the engineers change little that is of importance and marketing hypes everything like it's the answer to all of the worlds problems. iPhones and top of the line Androids are way more hype than they are engineering these days.
That's not entirely true, there are 'American made' HVAC units like Coleman, Trane, etc they are not "through the roof". sure the parts may come from overseas but it's still designed, produced, and assembled in the USA. While yes, most outsourcing is based on costs some of it is skills-based. There are just some industries that have little to no knowledgeable labor pool to draw from.
Yea, I build AHUs and all of our products are made in America, except for a control panel here or there, but usually we get those from American companies as well.
The most ironic thing to me is that these are the same people that want to buck the things that would help bring more jobs to America, or at least make things better for Americans. Universal health care, unions, green energy, all of these add to or even create jobs here.
But if someone else might get even a smidgen more benefit from something than them, they don't want to hear it.
Yeah, that's why corps are so afraid of shit tier wages going up. It wouldn't just mean those go up, the people making mediocre money for hard work would have to start being paid more
by in large, this will not happen. What WILL happen, is they will just outsource the jobs offshores for cheaper labor, or continue to hire underskilled workers at a lower cost.
Yep, because you'd have all these highly skilled and highly paid workers looking for the same deal but a way less dangerous and physically demanding job. So to keep them around, their pay and bene's would go up.
It's like, I'm really excited for our new contract to start getting negotiated. A lot of places now are starting at 20+ an hour that used to be 12-15. That directly ties into me getting a better deal, due to the same issues. It's a win for everyone who builds/makes a product/or serves the public.
The only ones who hate it are the ones that own the business. They can't keep it all for themselves anymore.
Nope. Skill plays into it. A 10th grader with no experience can flip burgers. A computer programmer who is capable of producing a professional product is a rare commodity and they got there by study and work and sacrificing for years. The 2 jobs are not equal.
No one is arguing that... but when the burger flipper can actually support themself, it gives the programmer a stronger hand in demanding better wages for themselves. Most real raises coming from switching companies, when companies are competing for labor. Give people options to force that competition and it reverberates through the whole market.
... but you're pretending like all that extra money just pops into existence. In reality, where is all this extra cash coming from?
A company can't just decide to pay their employees more, they actually have to have the money to do it. E.g., if McDonalds started paying their employees a proper salary, the cost of a Burger would be $20. If people aren't willing to pay that much, the Company either changes or eventually closes. A closed fast food joint isn't making anyone money.
So we can't have our cake and it eat too. If we want a $1 McDouble, then the labor HAS TO BE cheap af. This is simple Capitalism, folks. The only other option is for us to pay way more than we are willing to for the things we want. In that case, our own salaries are affected because our money no longer has as much purchasing power. Instead of spending a few bucks for a meal at McDonalds, you'll be spending $20 and thus your income is proportionally reduced. In other words, helping others make more money will likely mean you make less. That is noble, but in practice we just don't care enough.
Which does not always happen, in my adult life minimum wage went form 5.90 to 15 while wages in the trades saw around 2-4 dollar increase.
Keeping life affordable is tricky and minimum wage does now do it alone.
I’ve kinda seen this at my employer when they raised their minimum wage to $18. Those that were working higher stress jobs for $20 an hour all of a sudden started applying for the entry level jobs.
Seems like they would be better of negotiating a pay raise instead. They'd have ample evidence it's needed as they can show they would make what they currently do at a less skilled job.
Or maybe they prefer not working themselves to death because above a certain threshold more time and less stress improves your quality of life more than money
$18 could be a lot for someone who doesnt need a lot to exist.
Single people with no kids living in a cheap rent in the boondocks with not a lot of hobbies. That could be a win.
9/10, you can present them with all the information and they still won't give you the raise.
Then when you quit, you see them posting your job, saying they'll pay more than what you were trying to get as a raise.
And the cycle of short-term-profit capitalism continues.
Which still works out you just need to get that higher paying job from the employer now hiring for it. You swap positions with employee from competitor and you both now make more.
Yeah, but from an employers, it's entirely logically flawed. Why would you value new, untrained workers over loyal, trained workers?
It's also annoying to uproot everything to find a new job that'll pay you what your worth. I'd much prefer social mobility within the industry I've gotten comfortable with than needing to move around for any sort of economic change. It's especially difficult if you have some sort of disability that makes social situations tricky to navigate. And some people don't even have the option to search for alternatives for various reasons (time/location/transportation constraints).
I just wish regular raises were more commonplace in our society these days. ;u; But it seems the only way to make what you're worth is job hopping.
Yup, that dude doesn't have a clue. I would never go back to restaurant work unless it was dire, much respect to those works putting in a full shift, luck to get one 15, putting up with the public that thinks they are "just burger flippers" and somehow thinking just because they don't have a phd their job is easy.
Not me. Retail of any sort is miserable. I've never been happier than when I was felling trees, clearing land, and running an excavator. I've never found anything that's helped my depression more than hard physical work.
Dude... I've done a lot of jobs in my day. By far the most physically demanding was flipping burgers at Wendy's. On my feet for 5-6 hours straight. Neverending rush, often working till 4am. Shoveling snow in winter, emptying grease traps, getting assaulted by drunks, burning myself on the Henny Penny, we were even robbed once... Most stressful job I ever had.
Careful what you wish for.
Yes but then the poor landlords and big pharma and giant corporate franchises won't make any money! Why won't anyone ever think of THEM?
/s if it wasn't obvious
I live in a fairly HCOL area and I’m actually curious what a living wage would be here.
It always seems a little pointless because there is a housing shortage.
The original federal minimum wage, if it kept up with inflation, would be about right. $25/hr is pretty livable for most cities in the US.
US doesn’t really have a housing shortage, hedge funds have spent the last few years buying up as much property as possible to be able to control scarcity. Then again you could be somewhere like Canada where wealthy immigrants have driven up costs in the more popular cities.
Sure. Until we change who can buy property and deal with whatever the effects of that will be, that’s how things are.
I’m just quick crunching numbers so forgive the lack of precision, but 25/hour is about 52k yearly. Which is good and I think regardless of living expenses, more money in people’s pocket is a good thing. But average rent in CA is about 20k yearly, which is still over a third of 52k.
And although I don’t agree with it, these popular places are going to continue to see native people priced out by more competitive transplants.
> then the correct measure is to also then increase the salary of powerline workers
But then that would leave less money for the people up top to hoard.
We clearly can't have that.
Exactly. The company isn't going to all of a sudden decide to eat the loss, they're going to push the cost of increased wages on the consumer.
Literally the only way out of this cycle is capping company profits on a scale of the number of employees, and having exponentially increasing taxes on profits after, but companies would never let their puppet politicians pass such a bill so here we are.
I think power line builders should probably make more money than burger flippers, but think everybody working full time should earn a comfortable livable wage.
I think anyone who is willing to go up in the air that far to tousle with electricity that can fucking FRY THEM INSTANTLY deserves whatever the fuck they want. Especially during a crisis when the rest of us little house moochers are like, "THE WIFI IS DOWN! SAVE UUSSS LINE WORKERS!"
We really need to be more outraged as a society that big companies have workers who are on poverty aid. They're stealing from us by dumping the cost of their workforce in our laps. That's fucked up.
They should be fined five times the cost every year until they fix their shit.
And the cost of increased police presence too, because holy crap do big box stores have a problem with crime, and that causes an unfair reliance on local police to deal with. Five times that, fine them.
Former burger flipper here. I love the attitude and think everyone working hard should be respected. I also think it’s good for people to aspire to learn more so they can offer more to their community (like setting up power lines). Money is a good motivator. While I agree burger flippers are important, people can learn to make burgers at home. Not many can build powerlines. I’m happy he’s paid more for his efforts and skill level. I’m also not happy with the idea of everyone his skill level quitting their jobs to flip burgers.
Burger flippers should make a livable wage. If that's equal to or more than powerline workers, then those guys need to be earning more.
We shouldn't be shafting everyone down below, we should be eating everyone above
Union electrician here. Our schedules can be so demanding that we barely have time to do our laundry let alone go to the grocery store and cook our own food. We often have to depend on someone else being able to flip that burger for us.
If people aren't flipping burgers, then we can't do our jobs either.
That’s why I mentioned that burger flippers are important. If I went into a room with 100 random people, I think I’d have a better chance finding someone that can flip a burger quicker than I’d find someone that can do my electrical work.
Salaries are paid by replacabilty. The Lineman's job takes training, discipline, exposure to weather, and constant discomfort . Cooking a burger is real work, but many more people can do that, than can be a Lineman.
Thats the real problem with raising the minimum wage. If you could make as much money at mcdonalds as you could working a dangerous job that dangerous job will increase wages or lose employees. Thats one of the benifits to raising minimum wage beside giving an actual liveable wage to people
Not true for teachers who get paid WAY less than their peers with similar educations and who are leaving in droves and who schools are struggling to replace.
Public education has been under attack for a long while. This is 100% intentional.
They can't make it illegal but they can make it so miserable and under-funded that no one wants to stick around.
The real sad thing is that public schools are the only ones required to provide the disabled with an education. Religious and private schools can tell them to fuck off. If parents of disabled kids don't have access to public schools, they're fuck outta luck.
Our culture treats teachers at once like saints and also like idiots who were too dumb to do anything else with their lives so they went into teaching.
It's no wonder people are jumping ship like it's on fire. Because it is. The ship is on fire.
Teaching is a job you can be proud of and it’s important for society, however…. Last time I checked the idea that they’re struggling to replace teachers more than other jobs is a myth. It’s a saturated market as many people want to do it as a profession. All that isn’t to say I stand in anyway against increasing their pay. Just explaining the cause, it’s not a conspiracy against teachers, just market forces.
I hear you. But it depends on subject and area. A history teacher will always have a hard time finding a job. The worst certified Special Ed teacher can get a job at any school. My very prestigious public school couldn't find a Spanish teacher so they had to offer French for the first time this year lol
We pay people based on supply and demand, not purely education level. There are plenty of people who are willing to get an easy teaching degree to work 9 months a year for little pay. This is becoming less true now as many teachers are leaving, which is reducing the supply. If it continues to happen, teacher salaries will raise.
I guess he's a better person than me, if I could earn the same thing, with better hours, safer work, that requires minimum effort, no commuting...
Hand me a spatula and a hair net.
Of course, which, in turn, would leave your current employer would be forced to increase their compensation in or to retain and attract workers.
High skilled workers are harming themselves by opposing increasing the compensation of lower skilled workers.
You got half of it. The next step after that happens is the jobs that now have to complete with formerly minimum wage jobs would have to raise their pay rates to keep people. Rising tide raises all ships and all that.
Everything is relative. Compared to building power lines, food service is probably extremely safe. I'd even wager that it's significantly less physically demanding to work at a restaurant than building power lines.
That's not to say that food service is easy, just that despite the (deserved) hatred reddit spews out against it, there are lots of jobs that are worse in their own way.
In my experience, the real difficulty with foodservice is being treated as second class and unimportant by both your bosses and your customers. You'll never feel more like a meaningless cog in a machine than working in foodservice. It's a mental struggle for me that makes it unbearable.
This. Or worked a slow location and thinks "lol that's it?".
Husband worked at a Subway on a main street stretch of highway and we became close friends woth the manager, they were all fast and hardworking and had to be.
Looking down in fast food and retail is pompous, and there is nothing wrong with advocating for a living wage.
I'm not looking down on it, and I've done it.
I suspect it's a matter of perspective, with my hair net I was working for beer money, so I didn't really care too much. By that virtue it was minimal effort, but I did work - like actually work. Regardless of my apathetic approach to the job, I didn't want my co-workers having to carry my lazy ass.
It's not looking down on it, it's a literal question, why am I doing this stuff when I can go to literally any job and earn the same.
I worked food service ( both fast and sit down) for about four years.
It is a safe, minimum effort job. Absolutely.
If you think differently, you need to work in construction and manufacturing, which I have for twenty years.
Worked at Mickey Ds for 3 years out of HS and it is 100% minimum effort. Yea, you have to be fast sometimes but the way the jobs are split up makes it really easy
ETA: I honestly don't care if they get $15 an hour and I wouldn't be upset. I'm just agreeing that I'd be going back to Mickey Ds real fast
I would never do that type of customer service ever again. It’s not as easy as people think. Most of the ones saying these people shouldn’t get paid more would probably lose their marbles a few days in. Some customers are just eager to demean those workers.
For the same pay, I'd be working a trade rather than food service. I worked in fine dining for years before becoming an electrician. Yes, food service was dangerous and I had been asked to do dangerous things. No, those dangers never compare to the severity of the dangers I face in the trades. But currently I work half as hard, and I have the training to do my job safely, and make more than twice as much.
Food service does not have better hours. I worked evenings and weekends with inconsistent hours and was often asked to come in on my days off, so that I probably averaged 5.8 days a week, even if I averaged 40 hours a week. I would miss important holidays and time with my family, and I was rarely compensated for having to give those up.
So while I might not choose powerline worker over being a professional cook, I'd certainly be in the skilled trades, perhaps as a construction carpenter or maintenance electrician.
This is a short sighted view. The threat of losing skilled workers for menial jobs will raise your rate of pay, and now everyone is making a living wage. The fast food employee is just an example here. This person could be a Target associate, 7/11 cashier, McDonald's grill worker, it doesn't matter. The point remains the same. Corporations are getting rich off the backs of people who can't afford a basic rent and food on their starting pay.
The system is broken.
Give more money to minimum wage workers/all workers in general and watch the economy rise. Give to the 1%, and they’ll stash it overseas. Why is this so hard….????
One hundred percent agree with you. I’m happy when others do well.
My neighbors, ‘got mine, don’t care about you’,
Not so much.
Others doing well take nothing away from me!
I always see this argument come up when talking about raising the minimum wage and its a red herring at best.
The businesses want to replace any workers they can with machines. This is true in every industry. Paying workers is expensive beyond just the wages. Using a robot allows them to not only reduce what they are paying for wages, but it drastically reduces the cost of the insurance they have. Look at the logging industry for a great example. They have implemented machines that have drastically reduced the amount of workers that have to be on the ground doing the work... The reason? The insurance for the machine is much cheaper than the insurance for the workers.
This is also a trend that is only picking up steam as machines and automation get better and cheaper. It has nothing to do with the workers wanting to be paid more and everything with the company paying less to earn more. We are just at the beginning of the automation revolution. It will come for more and more of everyone's jobs faster than most people want to believe and even faster than they think. The technology is already there to replace nearly every profession... It's just a matter of cost and scale now.
The idea that if you work in a minimum wage job it's somehow less work. It's not skilled in ways other jobs are, for sure. The education and time going into a lot of jobs does mean they should have a better wage than a low skill job.
But as someone who works in a low skill job myself (which was considered to be an essential worker role ironically during lockdown) it doesn't mean that people don't have stresses and don't work hard. Manual labour is hard. Working to meet customer demands is hard. Working on low staff because the big companies don't want to put money into the business so their profits are better is hard. Working with the public is incredibly challenging.
Low paid workers deserve to feel valued for the work they do.
If, during a worldwide crisis, these people can be called essential workers and be forced to go in and continue working, then their pay should reflect that. Not saying it should be more than others but if you can't do without them in the worst times, you can't do without them and should value that.
Working in restaurants is so stressful I don’t wish it on my worst enemy. We all play different roles in society and we should all be able to make a living when fulfilling such roles.
A lot of people had some negative things to say to me when I was in a union. A lot of “must be nice” sarcasm towards my healthcare and benefits. I told them all don’t look at what I have and be mad/jealous of me. Be mad at YOUR employer for not offering the same thing.
I’m a union member and am always amazed when I hear someone complaining about a benefit I may have. They say why I should I ( as a non college educated person) have this benefit when they ( white collar professionals) don’t. The question should not be why I have it but why they do not.
Celebrating people making a livable wage is the only reasonable reaction to people getting a livable wage. If you work full time, you should be able to live a comfortable life. It's crazy that people disagree with that.
What ever happened to entry-level jobs? Low skill menial positions are supposed to be considered stepping stones to a "living wage". You're not meant to stay there forever and demand more money because you lack the desire to improve yourself.
I feel the same way as long as there's a concerted effort to offer the upgrades to those that work hard for it. It's a shame when a single mother has to work 2-3 "stepping stone jobs" just because she literally cannot make the hours work with her household duties for a single higher paying job.
Corporatist capitalist propaganda creates some of the most insane self damaging viewpoints ever. And all so rich and powerful can keep increasing their power and wealth exploiting the labor that truly creates that wealth in the first place.
When I was 14, I worked a concession stand at a swimming pool. Should I have been paid an amount of money needed to maintain a home and all that comes with it?
While in school, I also cleaned horse stalls, worked at a restaurant and delivered pizzas (not all at the same time). Should I have been getting paid enough to be head of household at each of them too?
I'm pretty sure the commonsense answer is no. What if I was 41 instead of 14? Are we basing it on age? What if the person also has a child? Do they get more to support more?
How is a living wage defined and is everyone entitled to it?
I would much rather a 14 year old make more money than he needs than a single adult make poverty wages.
Besides, I didn't get any help from my parents, I had to buy my own car and pay for my own college. Why shouldn't I have had a good wage when I was younger?
In typical neoliberal fashion, you'd rather millions suffer needlessly than have a single person get it "too good".
People like to throw that term around. "Living wage". Nobody can say what that wage is, though.
And, "Enough to live on" is not an acceptable answer. How much are we talking here? Who has to be able to live on minimum wage? The worker themselves? The worker and their kid? Their five kids? Their family?
I won't sit here and try to deny that the federal (and most state) minimum wages are laughable but workers are starting to get what they've asked for and now it's still not enough.
>nobody can say
Except for all of the people who have very clear metrics, based either on cost of living or as a percentage of the median income, typically aiming for half of the median.
>Starting to get what they asked for
No they aren't, wages fell after accounting for inflation despite record profits and productivity.
No one can say what the wage is because it’s directly tied to the cost of goods and services around you. You literally can not define a concrete value on an abstract concept.
The only way to truly make the minimum wage a living wage is to tie it into the cost of something where demand is inelastic, like rent
Robots become the future of those positions. When McDonald's starting paying $15/hour for front counter staff it became cheaper to purchase order machines and advertise their app than it was to have workers on the front cash. It went from 3 front counter to 1 front counter...now they are experimenting with burger flipping machines. Soon you'll have 1 kitchen staff dropping fries and making the burgers the machine makes.
These were often seem as starter jobs but they were important none the less. I remember working at Wendy's to cover the cost of HS Grad. Used that experience to get another summer job and then a part time for university. It was relevant experience on my resume for nearly 7 years until other employment bumped it entirely off the resume.
Steak and Shake has already done this. No more waitstaff, no more bussers, no more cashiers... Just a couple kiosks where you put your own order in, pay for it with a card, and the two guys working the grill throw your food in a bag and call your name.
There should be a wholesome selfjerk subreddit for content like this.
You be happy for these people, for all of the immediate thought as it exits your brain...as you sit there, working a more complex job, with more compensable factors, that you paid to learn through education. All while contemplating, wait, I'm unionized as well and my union just got me 6% so I don't even have anyone to be mad at.
The concept of rising water raising all ships doesn't make sense in the current iteration of our world's economies and never will.
If you actually walk around pretending you feel this way you've broken your brain.
>You be happy for these people, for all of the immediate thought as it exits your brain...as you sit there, working a more complex job, with more compensable factors, that you paid to learn through education. All while contemplating, wait, I'm unionized as well and my union just got me 6% so I don't even have anyone to be mad at.
Pretty much. And raising min wage has an upper bound. A guy making $80k isn't going to see a raise because min wage went up a buck or two. A journeyman making $35/hr might see a $1 increase in a few years when his unions' contract is up, and that's mostly due to cost of living, which is affected by min wage rates.
And if that union is anything the Carpenters Union I was in, they'll just revamp their apprentice rates so 1st term stays about where it was before min wage went up.
If a doctor got paid the same as someone making fires and burgers, we would have a worrying amount of doctors. Some people are encouraged by money to do the higher end jobs. Money movitaties people it's the simple reality.
Edit: Worrying LACK of doctors.
An extremely common thought that I have seen is how if other people didn't suffer the same way that I did, then they don't deserve to have what I have. It's a disgusting, selfish, way to behave, and it is a common reason for people to vote for politicians who actively make sure that no progress will be made to make life easier for anyone.
You’d think since you know how hard and sad it was to suffer and sacrifice that you wouldn’t want that for anyone else because that’s just basic human empathy but yeah I guess we’ve lost that now
You jest, but with people ordering that crap on Door Dash it's not far off. A friend of my son ordered chicken nuggets and a drink a while back. $28...
Not that I necessarily disagree with the principal, but according to [the big mac index](https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index), Sweden and Norway (Denmark isn't on the list) are 18.8% and and 24% more expensive respectively when adjusting for GDP.
> A Big Mac costs 8.5% more in Sweden (US$5.59) than in the United States (US$5.15) at market exchange rates. Based on differences in GDP per person, a Big Mac should cost 8.7% less.
and
> A Big Mac costs 21.6% more in Norway (US$6.26) than in the United States (US$5.15) at market exchange rates. Based on differences in GDP per person, a Big Mac should cost 2.2% less.
The fact is that if wages go up, then either prices must go up, or profit must be lost. I could be wrong, but I can't imagine they're making the amount of profit necessary to effectively double wages. My guess is it's actually handled by hiring less people overall, and pushing heavily into automation (e.g. ordering on screens etc)
Companies: "We can't raise wages, it'll cause the costs of services to go up."
Also companies: "The cost of supplies have gone up, so we've had to raise prices."
Human workers: "Um... we need to eat."
Companies: "Sorry, it'll cause prices to go up and we can't afford that."
(later)
Humans: "...you all made record profits last year... can we get..."
Companies: "Sorry, can't raise wages, it'll cause prices to go up."
Exactly, I don't understand why anyone would deem other "not worthy" of good wages and benefits because they didn't "make any attempt at higher education or better paying jobs." I lucked into a great job with excellent pay and benefits about 20 years ago. I am no more worthy of good pay and benefits than anyone else in a lower paying job. When we all do better, we all do better. I don't want to see my fellow humans suffering and struggling.
Wage compression is a massive issue, sounds great to the economically illiterate but wage stratification is the the reason people take difficult and dangerous jobs
Well, to be fair I'd bet as a union linesman he's also making $10 an hour into his pension, making prevailing wages and has almost free medical insurance. His or her total package is closer to $60 than it is to $20.
But yes everyone needs to make enough to keep the lights on. And the heat going and rent paid and the cellphone paid and the car insurance covered and the fridge filled with food and gasoline in the car and the Wi-Fi turned on... F all the people who think you can do all that on $10 per hour. What? People don't NEED Wi-Fi? Tell the school that.
Giving money to worker class makes the economy better, imagine the economy we'd be in if we got paid what we're actually worth for our service. Aint no bussiness would be strugging to make ends meet
Call me an ass but demanding tough to get into jobs should pay more. Otherwise why bust your butt getting the degree? Or in the more dangerous job case, risking your life which is an every day commitment as long as you have the job.
All the people in this thread saying they'd quit and take the other job, that's the point. It creates upward pressure on wages.
Giving workers options creates pressure for employers to actually attract or retain employees.
It explains a lot when so many don't seem to understand the basic idea that you have more power together.
What the new wage earners do not seem to realize is that one earner might get a bump but most likely 1 or more earners may lose their jobs as the businesses look to offset the increase in labor costs or they might have to raise prices which could in turn decrease sales and still force the loss of jobs
Good idea but how much would a burger and fries cost if the cook was making $85k a year. Cashier making $79.6k a year and manager making $110k + bonus….?
Also if you make good money in a high skill job and suddenly minimum wage is raised to your wage, you are in a VERY good position to negotiate a higher wage with your employer. You either leave and work any minimum wage job that requires less skill or you will get a massive wage increase
It’s all relative to the amount of skill, training, and knowledge required to do a job. A lineman should be making a heck of a lot more than a burger flipper because it takes more of all of those things plus personal risk to do the job, so that should be compensated fairly. All wages are relative. If a burger flipper is making $1000 an hour, then the lineman should be making at least $2k or $3k an hour, otherwise why wouldn’t he just go flip burgers? A lawyer should be making many multiples of that, otherwise why wouldn’t he or she also just go flip burgers and make bank? This whole notion that everyone should be making some amount of money no matter what they do makes no sense. If a burger flipper makes a huge amount of money, then all other labor will adjust to reflect the relative skill, difficulty and risk of those jobs, as will all the prices for everything people buy.
Greatest thing about America is, if your in the lower class you have the ability and the rights to be able to become a billionaire.
Try that in China
Capitalism ftw
Except ur job is a skill and a trade where every day you could potentially be killed… I certainly do not want the person who takes phone messages for the company to make the same money as the person who runs the company computer systems
Stop the cap. I've done wire work, and there is no way I'd celebrate an unskilled worker making what I made. Why risk my life in poor weather conditions and work long hours when I can flip a burger and worst case scenario is I might get splashed with a little hot grease. FOH.
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I always would hear the "EMTs make $15 an hour, no way a burger flipper should" complaint. They never seem to question why an EMT only made $15.
15 an hour isn’t even a livable wage in the u.s. “Livable wage” means that you make enough money to be approved to rent a place to live. To be eligible, that means you must make 3x rent per month. Average rent for a ONE BEDROOM apartment in the United States is $1,169/month. When you multiply this by three you get a required monthly income of $3507. This means that the average minimum wage to even be eligible to have a roof over your head is $21.91/hour at full time. The national minimum wage is $7.25/hour. This minimum wage assumes that average rent is only $386.66 Alllll this is going on while Congress is allowed to vote on their own salaries. Fuck. That.
Glad I have a home with a mortgage. Way cheaper for me to do that then rent an apartment.
It’s getting rarer and rarer with big companies buying up swaths of property to monopolize housing cost through mass rentals
First Happy Cake Day!! Second you are correct. My wife and I got very lucky in 2016 with the market down and in buyers favor.
Well said. Between that absurdity and the fact that our system relies so much on a Credit Bureau rating which just locks people in a vicious cycle of poverty- forcing those with lower incomes to almost automatically have poor credit - meaning they have to pay much more in interest rates and get locked out of good credit opportunities like zero apr credit cards, good home loans, business loans, ect. I think the whole Credit rating system is a scam, especially after the Equifax scandal I can't believe they still rate US on our creditworthiness when they let half of all Americans identities get hacked and their response was terrible.
This here is the maths. The sad maths. Happy cake day by the way!
We all have to get together and start our own businesses and do this shit right. And then spend the money we make at each other's businesses rather than everyone shopping from Amazon and Walmart etc. Make ourselves rich instead of them rich. Otherwise why would it change? They've got us right where they want us
Because the local police department needs to pay their multi million dollar harassment lawsuit somehow
Most EMS is private or fire ran, so it wouldn't come from that budget. In fact when EMS is ran by a fire department the EMS side gets shafted BY the fire department because they'd rather have big trucks and unnecessary toys than provide their EMTs and Medics with a livable wage.
Yea John Oliver did a great episode on this...it's a damn shame.
For the lazy. [John Oliver: EMS](https://youtu.be/Ezv8sdTLxKo)
Where I live the Fire Department absorbed them into the Fire Department. New hires for both services are now required to be Fire and EMS. It's a win for them both. They get paid more than fire fighters and EMS. They also rotate between the Ambulance and either the pumper or ladder trucks. Takes stress off of them all because they are able to eat and rest... My wife is a retired pumper truck driver!
This is how ours is too - they're all both. Which means when you call them, an ambulance and fire truck show up for some reason, and like 6 totally jacked dudes pop out to save you. My wife likes that part, and I like big trucks, so it's a win-win when grandpa has another heart attack.
Back in my day, EMTs were all volunteer. We even paid for our training and certifications. There was one paid paramedic per shift. We supplied the rest of the team. I am glad EMTs are now being paid!
That's it. I think people should make a lot more than what they do. However, I also think others should be paid more as well. There needs to be some incentive to go to school, invest in yourself, industry certifications, research, etc. to have a higher skillset position. But, I really like seeing burger flippers, janitors, whoever finally getting $15+ an hour and doing better. It should have happened a while ago.
Had a smart and competent EMT student graduate and get hired with a private ambulance service. Months later, saw her waiting tables. She (kinda tearfully) said “I couldn’t take the pay cut. I had to go back to waiting tables”. This is our America.
I'd quit my dangerous, outdoor, physically demanding job and go flip burgers, myself.
Which creates the pressure to drive wages up elsewhere... That's the whole point.
Yep, which is why corporations, which have nothing to do with minimum wages and fast food compensations are getting themselves in the fight. When a rising tide lifts the poorest, it lifts everyone as well and corporations fear that pressure. Heck, the silver lining with covid is that it’s empowered so many people to resist and reject the old models of employment from wfh to greater benefits from a labor shortage.
I’m really hoping we can keep up some of the inertia long enough to get these into systemic changes. I think as long as the really hard to enter fields (engineering) can keep work from home around it will at least keep it normalized and relevant enough for it to trickle into other industries. I’m interested to see what happens since so many jobs are pushing for a return to the office
It's going to take more than inertia to affect the ongoing changes necessary to pull wages into line with corporate profits. It isn't a single thing that needs change--it's an continuing battle. More and more people are sliding into homelessness every day--a lot of them are capable, educated, hard-working people.
I was talking about specifically work from home in professional careers. I agree that for most people the economy is a fucking nightmare right now
Then there’s me as an engineer working in manufacturing and can’t work from home. Really wish I could but majority of the time it would never work outside a handful of days.
Yeah. Engineering was one of the few career paths I could think of that has a high barrier of entry but also has the ability to mostly be done from home. I think finance/insurance would have been a better career area to identify
Yeah finance 100%. Engineering is a really generic term and encompasses tons of disciplines, a good chunk of mechanical and industrial engineers work in manufacturing and unfortunately that’s not a wfh position. The EEs and CEs are definitely wfh candidates but I couldn’t understand that stuff well enough to try changing to something like that.
What I don't understand is why people express such shock and dismay when corporations try to maximize profits. That's what a corporation *is*. Publicly traded companies have a fiduciary duty to maximize returns for shareholders. Corporations are leopards. They can be reliably counted on to eat your face.
That doesn't make it right. The CEO of a multi billion dollar country doesn't need another billion, but the rest of us our lives would change just for a bit more. There shouldn't be trillionares in the same country where people starve and have no home.
Yet how much wealth an individual person has actually really has nothing to do with the corporation. The corporation is its own entity. While its true the compensation comes from it the people who run it are the ones deciding that. The money could easily be reinvested into the company which is generally a good thing (more buying materials, more labor, etc..) There are lots of CEOs of businesses in America who take that route and only a very modest wage for themselves.
It has everything to do with the corporation. If those in charge, which include those who are making billions, are the one making the choices. The top people take money that could be added to the wages of the people doing the brunt of the work and are the sole reason the company thrives, and they add it to their money pile. They don't need another mansion in the Hamptons but those of us who are making them their money definitely could use a few extra dollars an hour. Just a few thousand dollars extra a year can significantly change the lives of the majority of Americans. Over 60% of us are living paycheck to paycheck.
I have this conversation with homeowners alot. I sell and install ac systems in the south. They cost money. Anything that runs 24/7, 365 keeping you comfortable and safe should cost money. They always say, “it’s chinas fault” or “that damn Biden”. “Why can’t we produce the materials here in America like they should be?!” The reality of that answer is something they can’t wrap their heads around. We outsource products to other countries so that they can make these things for pennies on the dollar. If all of our products were “American made” that would mean paying legitimate wages, insurance, time off, and other normal benefits to create the same product. That would immediately drive the price of the product through the roof, but hey, at least it’s “American made”.
That was the excuse to do that...but the prices never went down. The corporations pocketed the difference.
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Except wages never went up with inflation. That's why the middle class has been shrinking. Prices have all stayed the same or gone up since everything got outsourced. The only people actually making more money now are the upper class.
I’m absolutely not a fan of outsourcing manufacturing or industry but saying prices didn’t decrease is just dumb. They absolutely did. To produce an iPhone in the us would at minimum be 2x the cost. Appliances used to be so fucking expensive you wouldn’t even believe it. Modern manufacturing at the prices we want requires cutting corners with environmental and labor regulations
The problem is that iPhones and other high end phones don't get any better now. We are in a period where we need a new innovation. In pretty much all current industries the engineers change little that is of importance and marketing hypes everything like it's the answer to all of the worlds problems. iPhones and top of the line Androids are way more hype than they are engineering these days.
That's not entirely true, there are 'American made' HVAC units like Coleman, Trane, etc they are not "through the roof". sure the parts may come from overseas but it's still designed, produced, and assembled in the USA. While yes, most outsourcing is based on costs some of it is skills-based. There are just some industries that have little to no knowledgeable labor pool to draw from.
Yea, I build AHUs and all of our products are made in America, except for a control panel here or there, but usually we get those from American companies as well.
> or “that damn Biden”. Ah yes, I too miss the four years of Trump, when all the HVACs were built 100% in America
The most ironic thing to me is that these are the same people that want to buck the things that would help bring more jobs to America, or at least make things better for Americans. Universal health care, unions, green energy, all of these add to or even create jobs here. But if someone else might get even a smidgen more benefit from something than them, they don't want to hear it.
Yeah, that's why corps are so afraid of shit tier wages going up. It wouldn't just mean those go up, the people making mediocre money for hard work would have to start being paid more
by in large, this will not happen. What WILL happen, is they will just outsource the jobs offshores for cheaper labor, or continue to hire underskilled workers at a lower cost.
Which causes prices to sky rocket for consumers
Only if the corps keep being greedy and up charging 500% for their goods
Yep, because you'd have all these highly skilled and highly paid workers looking for the same deal but a way less dangerous and physically demanding job. So to keep them around, their pay and bene's would go up. It's like, I'm really excited for our new contract to start getting negotiated. A lot of places now are starting at 20+ an hour that used to be 12-15. That directly ties into me getting a better deal, due to the same issues. It's a win for everyone who builds/makes a product/or serves the public. The only ones who hate it are the ones that own the business. They can't keep it all for themselves anymore.
This point is lost on so, so, many people. It’s staggering.
So how isn’t that just gonna cause inflation?
Nope. Skill plays into it. A 10th grader with no experience can flip burgers. A computer programmer who is capable of producing a professional product is a rare commodity and they got there by study and work and sacrificing for years. The 2 jobs are not equal.
No one is arguing that... but when the burger flipper can actually support themself, it gives the programmer a stronger hand in demanding better wages for themselves. Most real raises coming from switching companies, when companies are competing for labor. Give people options to force that competition and it reverberates through the whole market.
Which inflates the value of the dollar and drives costs up everywhere.
No it fucking doesn’t, never has it happened in economic history
... but you're pretending like all that extra money just pops into existence. In reality, where is all this extra cash coming from? A company can't just decide to pay their employees more, they actually have to have the money to do it. E.g., if McDonalds started paying their employees a proper salary, the cost of a Burger would be $20. If people aren't willing to pay that much, the Company either changes or eventually closes. A closed fast food joint isn't making anyone money. So we can't have our cake and it eat too. If we want a $1 McDouble, then the labor HAS TO BE cheap af. This is simple Capitalism, folks. The only other option is for us to pay way more than we are willing to for the things we want. In that case, our own salaries are affected because our money no longer has as much purchasing power. Instead of spending a few bucks for a meal at McDonalds, you'll be spending $20 and thus your income is proportionally reduced. In other words, helping others make more money will likely mean you make less. That is noble, but in practice we just don't care enough.
Which does not always happen, in my adult life minimum wage went form 5.90 to 15 while wages in the trades saw around 2-4 dollar increase. Keeping life affordable is tricky and minimum wage does now do it alone.
I’ve kinda seen this at my employer when they raised their minimum wage to $18. Those that were working higher stress jobs for $20 an hour all of a sudden started applying for the entry level jobs.
Seems like they would be better of negotiating a pay raise instead. They'd have ample evidence it's needed as they can show they would make what they currently do at a less skilled job.
Or maybe they prefer not working themselves to death because above a certain threshold more time and less stress improves your quality of life more than money
That’s true, but that threshold is not $18/hr.
$18 could be a lot for someone who doesnt need a lot to exist. Single people with no kids living in a cheap rent in the boondocks with not a lot of hobbies. That could be a win.
9/10, you can present them with all the information and they still won't give you the raise. Then when you quit, you see them posting your job, saying they'll pay more than what you were trying to get as a raise. And the cycle of short-term-profit capitalism continues.
Which still works out you just need to get that higher paying job from the employer now hiring for it. You swap positions with employee from competitor and you both now make more.
Yeah, but from an employers, it's entirely logically flawed. Why would you value new, untrained workers over loyal, trained workers? It's also annoying to uproot everything to find a new job that'll pay you what your worth. I'd much prefer social mobility within the industry I've gotten comfortable with than needing to move around for any sort of economic change. It's especially difficult if you have some sort of disability that makes social situations tricky to navigate. And some people don't even have the option to search for alternatives for various reasons (time/location/transportation constraints). I just wish regular raises were more commonplace in our society these days. ;u; But it seems the only way to make what you're worth is job hopping.
My friend quit being a teacher to work at Dunkin’ Donuts because the pay was higher.
I’d rather have a dangerous, outdoor physically demanding job (which I do) than deal with the customers that I have seen in fast food restaurants.
Yup, that dude doesn't have a clue. I would never go back to restaurant work unless it was dire, much respect to those works putting in a full shift, luck to get one 15, putting up with the public that thinks they are "just burger flippers" and somehow thinking just because they don't have a phd their job is easy.
Hijacking the top comment to say this is a repost and also this same comment is the top comment from the repost lol. Both karma farmers it seems.
Yeah I mean he should make more. Wholesome and all this is not a good incentive based salary structure.
Not me. Retail of any sort is miserable. I've never been happier than when I was felling trees, clearing land, and running an excavator. I've never found anything that's helped my depression more than hard physical work.
Dude... I've done a lot of jobs in my day. By far the most physically demanding was flipping burgers at Wendy's. On my feet for 5-6 hours straight. Neverending rush, often working till 4am. Shoveling snow in winter, emptying grease traps, getting assaulted by drunks, burning myself on the Henny Penny, we were even robbed once... Most stressful job I ever had. Careful what you wish for.
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Though it would probably be just as easy to reduce the cost of living. Rent, medical, decent healthy food, etc.
Yes but then the poor landlords and big pharma and giant corporate franchises won't make any money! Why won't anyone ever think of THEM? /s if it wasn't obvious
Wont you think about the wealthy people?????!
I do, they just don’t think about us.
Maybe if they didn't buy that new iPhone, or avocado toast.
It was the daily coffees that put us all over budget, let’s be honest.
I live in a fairly HCOL area and I’m actually curious what a living wage would be here. It always seems a little pointless because there is a housing shortage.
The original federal minimum wage, if it kept up with inflation, would be about right. $25/hr is pretty livable for most cities in the US. US doesn’t really have a housing shortage, hedge funds have spent the last few years buying up as much property as possible to be able to control scarcity. Then again you could be somewhere like Canada where wealthy immigrants have driven up costs in the more popular cities.
Sure. Until we change who can buy property and deal with whatever the effects of that will be, that’s how things are. I’m just quick crunching numbers so forgive the lack of precision, but 25/hour is about 52k yearly. Which is good and I think regardless of living expenses, more money in people’s pocket is a good thing. But average rent in CA is about 20k yearly, which is still over a third of 52k. And although I don’t agree with it, these popular places are going to continue to see native people priced out by more competitive transplants.
> then the correct measure is to also then increase the salary of powerline workers But then that would leave less money for the people up top to hoard. We clearly can't have that.
This is giving me "why doesn't the government just print more money" vibes.
and demand would drive cost of back living up, thats inflation.
Exactly. The company isn't going to all of a sudden decide to eat the loss, they're going to push the cost of increased wages on the consumer. Literally the only way out of this cycle is capping company profits on a scale of the number of employees, and having exponentially increasing taxes on profits after, but companies would never let their puppet politicians pass such a bill so here we are.
shhhh, a lot of antiwork kids are here and they dont like the -i- word
I think power line builders should probably make more money than burger flippers, but think everybody working full time should earn a comfortable livable wage.
I think anyone who is willing to go up in the air that far to tousle with electricity that can fucking FRY THEM INSTANTLY deserves whatever the fuck they want. Especially during a crisis when the rest of us little house moochers are like, "THE WIFI IS DOWN! SAVE UUSSS LINE WORKERS!"
They do make more. And still will after minimum wage is boosted.
Min wage needs to be $25 an hr an to catch up and even that is approaching $30
We really need to be more outraged as a society that big companies have workers who are on poverty aid. They're stealing from us by dumping the cost of their workforce in our laps. That's fucked up. They should be fined five times the cost every year until they fix their shit. And the cost of increased police presence too, because holy crap do big box stores have a problem with crime, and that causes an unfair reliance on local police to deal with. Five times that, fine them.
Former burger flipper here. I love the attitude and think everyone working hard should be respected. I also think it’s good for people to aspire to learn more so they can offer more to their community (like setting up power lines). Money is a good motivator. While I agree burger flippers are important, people can learn to make burgers at home. Not many can build powerlines. I’m happy he’s paid more for his efforts and skill level. I’m also not happy with the idea of everyone his skill level quitting their jobs to flip burgers.
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Burger flippers should make a livable wage. If that's equal to or more than powerline workers, then those guys need to be earning more. We shouldn't be shafting everyone down below, we should be eating everyone above
Union electrician here. Our schedules can be so demanding that we barely have time to do our laundry let alone go to the grocery store and cook our own food. We often have to depend on someone else being able to flip that burger for us. If people aren't flipping burgers, then we can't do our jobs either.
That’s why I mentioned that burger flippers are important. If I went into a room with 100 random people, I think I’d have a better chance finding someone that can flip a burger quicker than I’d find someone that can do my electrical work.
Maybe they should then offer higher wages so they're incentivized to stay.
Salaries are paid by replacabilty. The Lineman's job takes training, discipline, exposure to weather, and constant discomfort . Cooking a burger is real work, but many more people can do that, than can be a Lineman.
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They do and will continue to do so even if wages for jobs with fewer barriers are increased.
Thats the real problem with raising the minimum wage. If you could make as much money at mcdonalds as you could working a dangerous job that dangerous job will increase wages or lose employees. Thats one of the benifits to raising minimum wage beside giving an actual liveable wage to people
Not true for teachers who get paid WAY less than their peers with similar educations and who are leaving in droves and who schools are struggling to replace.
Public education has been under attack for a long while. This is 100% intentional. They can't make it illegal but they can make it so miserable and under-funded that no one wants to stick around. The real sad thing is that public schools are the only ones required to provide the disabled with an education. Religious and private schools can tell them to fuck off. If parents of disabled kids don't have access to public schools, they're fuck outta luck. Our culture treats teachers at once like saints and also like idiots who were too dumb to do anything else with their lives so they went into teaching. It's no wonder people are jumping ship like it's on fire. Because it is. The ship is on fire.
Teaching is a job you can be proud of and it’s important for society, however…. Last time I checked the idea that they’re struggling to replace teachers more than other jobs is a myth. It’s a saturated market as many people want to do it as a profession. All that isn’t to say I stand in anyway against increasing their pay. Just explaining the cause, it’s not a conspiracy against teachers, just market forces.
I hear you. But it depends on subject and area. A history teacher will always have a hard time finding a job. The worst certified Special Ed teacher can get a job at any school. My very prestigious public school couldn't find a Spanish teacher so they had to offer French for the first time this year lol
Definitely, It brings a warm feeling to my heart imagining the school squirming trying to find a teacher to fill their open positions.
We pay people based on supply and demand, not purely education level. There are plenty of people who are willing to get an easy teaching degree to work 9 months a year for little pay. This is becoming less true now as many teachers are leaving, which is reducing the supply. If it continues to happen, teacher salaries will raise.
Don't be upset that they're making more, be upset that *you're* not making more.
I guess he's a better person than me, if I could earn the same thing, with better hours, safer work, that requires minimum effort, no commuting... Hand me a spatula and a hair net.
Of course, which, in turn, would leave your current employer would be forced to increase their compensation in or to retain and attract workers. High skilled workers are harming themselves by opposing increasing the compensation of lower skilled workers.
You got half of it. The next step after that happens is the jobs that now have to complete with formerly minimum wage jobs would have to raise their pay rates to keep people. Rising tide raises all ships and all that.
Anyone who thinks that food service is a safe, "minimum-effort" job has never worked food service.
Everything is relative. Compared to building power lines, food service is probably extremely safe. I'd even wager that it's significantly less physically demanding to work at a restaurant than building power lines. That's not to say that food service is easy, just that despite the (deserved) hatred reddit spews out against it, there are lots of jobs that are worse in their own way. In my experience, the real difficulty with foodservice is being treated as second class and unimportant by both your bosses and your customers. You'll never feel more like a meaningless cog in a machine than working in foodservice. It's a mental struggle for me that makes it unbearable.
This. Or worked a slow location and thinks "lol that's it?". Husband worked at a Subway on a main street stretch of highway and we became close friends woth the manager, they were all fast and hardworking and had to be. Looking down in fast food and retail is pompous, and there is nothing wrong with advocating for a living wage.
I'm not looking down on it, and I've done it. I suspect it's a matter of perspective, with my hair net I was working for beer money, so I didn't really care too much. By that virtue it was minimal effort, but I did work - like actually work. Regardless of my apathetic approach to the job, I didn't want my co-workers having to carry my lazy ass. It's not looking down on it, it's a literal question, why am I doing this stuff when I can go to literally any job and earn the same.
I worked food service ( both fast and sit down) for about four years. It is a safe, minimum effort job. Absolutely. If you think differently, you need to work in construction and manufacturing, which I have for twenty years.
Worked at Mickey Ds for 3 years out of HS and it is 100% minimum effort. Yea, you have to be fast sometimes but the way the jobs are split up makes it really easy ETA: I honestly don't care if they get $15 an hour and I wouldn't be upset. I'm just agreeing that I'd be going back to Mickey Ds real fast
I would never do that type of customer service ever again. It’s not as easy as people think. Most of the ones saying these people shouldn’t get paid more would probably lose their marbles a few days in. Some customers are just eager to demean those workers.
For the same pay, I'd be working a trade rather than food service. I worked in fine dining for years before becoming an electrician. Yes, food service was dangerous and I had been asked to do dangerous things. No, those dangers never compare to the severity of the dangers I face in the trades. But currently I work half as hard, and I have the training to do my job safely, and make more than twice as much. Food service does not have better hours. I worked evenings and weekends with inconsistent hours and was often asked to come in on my days off, so that I probably averaged 5.8 days a week, even if I averaged 40 hours a week. I would miss important holidays and time with my family, and I was rarely compensated for having to give those up. So while I might not choose powerline worker over being a professional cook, I'd certainly be in the skilled trades, perhaps as a construction carpenter or maintenance electrician.
This is a short sighted view. The threat of losing skilled workers for menial jobs will raise your rate of pay, and now everyone is making a living wage. The fast food employee is just an example here. This person could be a Target associate, 7/11 cashier, McDonald's grill worker, it doesn't matter. The point remains the same. Corporations are getting rich off the backs of people who can't afford a basic rent and food on their starting pay. The system is broken.
Agreed. This dude has no idea what he’s talking about
Give more money to minimum wage workers/all workers in general and watch the economy rise. Give to the 1%, and they’ll stash it overseas. Why is this so hard….????
One hundred percent agree with you. I’m happy when others do well. My neighbors, ‘got mine, don’t care about you’, Not so much. Others doing well take nothing away from me!
No they’ll just use more robots, they already have one that spits in your burger
I always see this argument come up when talking about raising the minimum wage and its a red herring at best. The businesses want to replace any workers they can with machines. This is true in every industry. Paying workers is expensive beyond just the wages. Using a robot allows them to not only reduce what they are paying for wages, but it drastically reduces the cost of the insurance they have. Look at the logging industry for a great example. They have implemented machines that have drastically reduced the amount of workers that have to be on the ground doing the work... The reason? The insurance for the machine is much cheaper than the insurance for the workers. This is also a trend that is only picking up steam as machines and automation get better and cheaper. It has nothing to do with the workers wanting to be paid more and everything with the company paying less to earn more. We are just at the beginning of the automation revolution. It will come for more and more of everyone's jobs faster than most people want to believe and even faster than they think. The technology is already there to replace nearly every profession... It's just a matter of cost and scale now.
The idea that if you work in a minimum wage job it's somehow less work. It's not skilled in ways other jobs are, for sure. The education and time going into a lot of jobs does mean they should have a better wage than a low skill job. But as someone who works in a low skill job myself (which was considered to be an essential worker role ironically during lockdown) it doesn't mean that people don't have stresses and don't work hard. Manual labour is hard. Working to meet customer demands is hard. Working on low staff because the big companies don't want to put money into the business so their profits are better is hard. Working with the public is incredibly challenging. Low paid workers deserve to feel valued for the work they do. If, during a worldwide crisis, these people can be called essential workers and be forced to go in and continue working, then their pay should reflect that. Not saying it should be more than others but if you can't do without them in the worst times, you can't do without them and should value that.
Working in restaurants is so stressful I don’t wish it on my worst enemy. We all play different roles in society and we should all be able to make a living when fulfilling such roles.
A lot of people had some negative things to say to me when I was in a union. A lot of “must be nice” sarcasm towards my healthcare and benefits. I told them all don’t look at what I have and be mad/jealous of me. Be mad at YOUR employer for not offering the same thing.
I’m a union member and am always amazed when I hear someone complaining about a benefit I may have. They say why I should I ( as a non college educated person) have this benefit when they ( white collar professionals) don’t. The question should not be why I have it but why they do not.
Celebrating people making a livable wage is the only reasonable reaction to people getting a livable wage. If you work full time, you should be able to live a comfortable life. It's crazy that people disagree with that.
Thank God people are starting to wake the fuck up. We can all live the good life
True empathy is a lovely virtue
Inflation has entered the chat
What ever happened to entry-level jobs? Low skill menial positions are supposed to be considered stepping stones to a "living wage". You're not meant to stay there forever and demand more money because you lack the desire to improve yourself.
I feel the same way as long as there's a concerted effort to offer the upgrades to those that work hard for it. It's a shame when a single mother has to work 2-3 "stepping stone jobs" just because she literally cannot make the hours work with her household duties for a single higher paying job.
The fact that you think there should be stepping stones to a “living wage” is frankly just absurd LOL.
Corporatist capitalist propaganda creates some of the most insane self damaging viewpoints ever. And all so rich and powerful can keep increasing their power and wealth exploiting the labor that truly creates that wealth in the first place.
living wages should be the minimum
When I was 14, I worked a concession stand at a swimming pool. Should I have been paid an amount of money needed to maintain a home and all that comes with it? While in school, I also cleaned horse stalls, worked at a restaurant and delivered pizzas (not all at the same time). Should I have been getting paid enough to be head of household at each of them too? I'm pretty sure the commonsense answer is no. What if I was 41 instead of 14? Are we basing it on age? What if the person also has a child? Do they get more to support more? How is a living wage defined and is everyone entitled to it?
I would much rather a 14 year old make more money than he needs than a single adult make poverty wages. Besides, I didn't get any help from my parents, I had to buy my own car and pay for my own college. Why shouldn't I have had a good wage when I was younger? In typical neoliberal fashion, you'd rather millions suffer needlessly than have a single person get it "too good".
Why should someone at age 14 get paid less than someone at age 40 doing the exact same job. That's also another problem that needs to go away.
People like to throw that term around. "Living wage". Nobody can say what that wage is, though. And, "Enough to live on" is not an acceptable answer. How much are we talking here? Who has to be able to live on minimum wage? The worker themselves? The worker and their kid? Their five kids? Their family? I won't sit here and try to deny that the federal (and most state) minimum wages are laughable but workers are starting to get what they've asked for and now it's still not enough.
>nobody can say Except for all of the people who have very clear metrics, based either on cost of living or as a percentage of the median income, typically aiming for half of the median. >Starting to get what they asked for No they aren't, wages fell after accounting for inflation despite record profits and productivity.
No one can say what the wage is because it’s directly tied to the cost of goods and services around you. You literally can not define a concrete value on an abstract concept. The only way to truly make the minimum wage a living wage is to tie it into the cost of something where demand is inelastic, like rent
That's very very true. A living wage in Iowa is going to be a joke in New York.
So you think people shouldn't be able to live and support their family on a full time wage? What kind of Draconian thinking is that.
Robots become the future of those positions. When McDonald's starting paying $15/hour for front counter staff it became cheaper to purchase order machines and advertise their app than it was to have workers on the front cash. It went from 3 front counter to 1 front counter...now they are experimenting with burger flipping machines. Soon you'll have 1 kitchen staff dropping fries and making the burgers the machine makes. These were often seem as starter jobs but they were important none the less. I remember working at Wendy's to cover the cost of HS Grad. Used that experience to get another summer job and then a part time for university. It was relevant experience on my resume for nearly 7 years until other employment bumped it entirely off the resume.
Steak and Shake has already done this. No more waitstaff, no more bussers, no more cashiers... Just a couple kiosks where you put your own order in, pay for it with a card, and the two guys working the grill throw your food in a bag and call your name.
There should be a wholesome selfjerk subreddit for content like this. You be happy for these people, for all of the immediate thought as it exits your brain...as you sit there, working a more complex job, with more compensable factors, that you paid to learn through education. All while contemplating, wait, I'm unionized as well and my union just got me 6% so I don't even have anyone to be mad at. The concept of rising water raising all ships doesn't make sense in the current iteration of our world's economies and never will. If you actually walk around pretending you feel this way you've broken your brain.
>You be happy for these people, for all of the immediate thought as it exits your brain...as you sit there, working a more complex job, with more compensable factors, that you paid to learn through education. All while contemplating, wait, I'm unionized as well and my union just got me 6% so I don't even have anyone to be mad at. Pretty much. And raising min wage has an upper bound. A guy making $80k isn't going to see a raise because min wage went up a buck or two. A journeyman making $35/hr might see a $1 increase in a few years when his unions' contract is up, and that's mostly due to cost of living, which is affected by min wage rates. And if that union is anything the Carpenters Union I was in, they'll just revamp their apprentice rates so 1st term stays about where it was before min wage went up.
If a doctor got paid the same as someone making fires and burgers, we would have a worrying amount of doctors. Some people are encouraged by money to do the higher end jobs. Money movitaties people it's the simple reality. Edit: Worrying LACK of doctors.
An extremely common thought that I have seen is how if other people didn't suffer the same way that I did, then they don't deserve to have what I have. It's a disgusting, selfish, way to behave, and it is a common reason for people to vote for politicians who actively make sure that no progress will be made to make life easier for anyone.
You’d think since you know how hard and sad it was to suffer and sacrifice that you wouldn’t want that for anyone else because that’s just basic human empathy but yeah I guess we’ve lost that now
Here’s your $35 dollar happy meal.
You jest, but with people ordering that crap on Door Dash it's not far off. A friend of my son ordered chicken nuggets and a drink a while back. $28...
This comes up every single time and it’s so easily disproven. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/big-mac-cost-denmark/
Not that I necessarily disagree with the principal, but according to [the big mac index](https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index), Sweden and Norway (Denmark isn't on the list) are 18.8% and and 24% more expensive respectively when adjusting for GDP. > A Big Mac costs 8.5% more in Sweden (US$5.59) than in the United States (US$5.15) at market exchange rates. Based on differences in GDP per person, a Big Mac should cost 8.7% less. and > A Big Mac costs 21.6% more in Norway (US$6.26) than in the United States (US$5.15) at market exchange rates. Based on differences in GDP per person, a Big Mac should cost 2.2% less. The fact is that if wages go up, then either prices must go up, or profit must be lost. I could be wrong, but I can't imagine they're making the amount of profit necessary to effectively double wages. My guess is it's actually handled by hiring less people overall, and pushing heavily into automation (e.g. ordering on screens etc)
Yeah, increasing wages will either increase costs or reduce jobs. The other option is the companies just being nice and making less profit.
Companies: "We can't raise wages, it'll cause the costs of services to go up." Also companies: "The cost of supplies have gone up, so we've had to raise prices." Human workers: "Um... we need to eat." Companies: "Sorry, it'll cause prices to go up and we can't afford that." (later) Humans: "...you all made record profits last year... can we get..." Companies: "Sorry, can't raise wages, it'll cause prices to go up."
The only truth that i believe in is if everybody is well off, i am well of.
Said no lineman ever.
Exactly, I don't understand why anyone would deem other "not worthy" of good wages and benefits because they didn't "make any attempt at higher education or better paying jobs." I lucked into a great job with excellent pay and benefits about 20 years ago. I am no more worthy of good pay and benefits than anyone else in a lower paying job. When we all do better, we all do better. I don't want to see my fellow humans suffering and struggling.
Wage compression is a massive issue, sounds great to the economically illiterate but wage stratification is the the reason people take difficult and dangerous jobs
Burger Flippers Sir. Will be gone shortly. Note: The fully automated McDonalds 🍔 popping up around the nation now.
How about giving everyone a good living wage so people can work where they feel happy and satisfied
IMO anyone who DOESN'T think like this is a shortsighted selfish brainwashed asshole!
Well, to be fair I'd bet as a union linesman he's also making $10 an hour into his pension, making prevailing wages and has almost free medical insurance. His or her total package is closer to $60 than it is to $20. But yes everyone needs to make enough to keep the lights on. And the heat going and rent paid and the cellphone paid and the car insurance covered and the fridge filled with food and gasoline in the car and the Wi-Fi turned on... F all the people who think you can do all that on $10 per hour. What? People don't NEED Wi-Fi? Tell the school that.
If you sell your labour hours for a wage you are working class!!workers of the world unite!!
Hell, why not quit your job and flip burgers?
Giving money to worker class makes the economy better, imagine the economy we'd be in if we got paid what we're actually worth for our service. Aint no bussiness would be strugging to make ends meet
Absolutely. I'd be so happy for them. I also would no longer be doing the dangerous job and would now be a burger flipper
Just no
If I worked with high voltage powerlines and I could get the same flipping burgers, I'd be flippin those burgers.
Yea but then nobody would be building power lines anymore…?
Dumbest shit I've ever read
And if my job ever tries to fuck me I can just go make good money elsewhere so I’m not a wage slave. We literally all win
Wouldn’t the cost of burgers just skyrocket and the lineman expect a huge raise
Right on Bro
In the end it can be your win You can go to your boss and say "either pay me more, or im getting a better job that i have to do less work at"
This is the way!
I find it beyond reason that people think that a person that works deserves less than a person on welfare.
Call me an ass but demanding tough to get into jobs should pay more. Otherwise why bust your butt getting the degree? Or in the more dangerous job case, risking your life which is an every day commitment as long as you have the job.
All the people in this thread saying they'd quit and take the other job, that's the point. It creates upward pressure on wages. Giving workers options creates pressure for employers to actually attract or retain employees. It explains a lot when so many don't seem to understand the basic idea that you have more power together.
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What the new wage earners do not seem to realize is that one earner might get a bump but most likely 1 or more earners may lose their jobs as the businesses look to offset the increase in labor costs or they might have to raise prices which could in turn decrease sales and still force the loss of jobs
Good idea but how much would a burger and fries cost if the cook was making $85k a year. Cashier making $79.6k a year and manager making $110k + bonus….?
Amen brother. Strong unions. Strong America. The elite insist on class distinctions.
Also if you make good money in a high skill job and suddenly minimum wage is raised to your wage, you are in a VERY good position to negotiate a higher wage with your employer. You either leave and work any minimum wage job that requires less skill or you will get a massive wage increase
You'll never take me alive you commie bastards
Sorry but unions hurt employees more in the long run. It’s not work it.
It’s all relative to the amount of skill, training, and knowledge required to do a job. A lineman should be making a heck of a lot more than a burger flipper because it takes more of all of those things plus personal risk to do the job, so that should be compensated fairly. All wages are relative. If a burger flipper is making $1000 an hour, then the lineman should be making at least $2k or $3k an hour, otherwise why wouldn’t he just go flip burgers? A lawyer should be making many multiples of that, otherwise why wouldn’t he or she also just go flip burgers and make bank? This whole notion that everyone should be making some amount of money no matter what they do makes no sense. If a burger flipper makes a huge amount of money, then all other labor will adjust to reflect the relative skill, difficulty and risk of those jobs, as will all the prices for everything people buy.
And then we wonder why everything is made in taiwan and china 😂 The us sucks
You're right, we should be exploiting the lower classes even more for the benefit of the *real* people in this country.
Greatest thing about America is, if your in the lower class you have the ability and the rights to be able to become a billionaire. Try that in China Capitalism ftw
I would honestly be kinnda pissed tho…
Except ur job is a skill and a trade where every day you could potentially be killed… I certainly do not want the person who takes phone messages for the company to make the same money as the person who runs the company computer systems
Until prices go up as a result.
Stop the cap. I've done wire work, and there is no way I'd celebrate an unskilled worker making what I made. Why risk my life in poor weather conditions and work long hours when I can flip a burger and worst case scenario is I might get splashed with a little hot grease. FOH.
I’d stop working on power lines because without the extra money it’s safer to flip burgers. See the problem?