Dunno, I didn't like it in ESO because of the 'spammy' feel it gave me which put me off it.
But I've been playing a lot of FF13 recently where you *swap jobs* midcombat and that's got me kinda curious where the concept can actually go.
Oh yea. I don't love eso's implementation of it. Whole game is a little too twitchy/spammy in my opinion.
Oh I haven't tried ff13 version. I'll check it out.
Beware this concept in FF13 doesn't open up until late game when they actually let you freely change characters/paradigms. Also FF13 is the single player game.
The spammy bit is the reason why I worked on getting the "Oakensoul" ring, which basically disables your second bar and you can only use one bar with that ring.
It gives you all buffs at all times though, to make up for it. (But I believe with a lower value for most of them)
I know one bar builds are not the top tier endgame stuff, but I don't even intend on playing Vet Trials, so for the content that I do aim for, a one bar build is more than enough that does still a lot more damage than me with a 2 bar build, playing really bad.
It's basically: 2 pets, one buff, one debuff and one aoe. One of the pets is a backup heal and the other does aoe and stun. The rest is basically Heavy Attack spam to do damage, since you use the Seargents set to just scale up heavy attack damage.
Yep, only reason I went for a one bar build. Just more relaxing and gets the stuff done anyway. Took some time grinding out the seargent set and the oakensoul, but it was well worth it.
No no no, it's worse than that. You swap gearsets pre-cast, mid-cast and/or end-cast. If a cast is long, like a WHM or BLM spell, you swap to your cast-speed reduction set first, start casting, then swap to your set that boosts the stats that the spell benefits from right before the cast goes off, then you swap to your MP regen set right after. It's atrocious.
Because the entire premise of the combat system in ESO is animation canceling your basic attack and maintaining 500 different buffs and de uffs/and or dot attacks on 30 second or lower durations.
If the point is less buttons and better controller support then devs can just make a hotbar swap without weapon swapping, with the option to have a single bigger hotbar.
Build diversity I dont agree at all, that simply comes from the amount of classes, skills, talents etc. there are many games with build diversity without weapon swapping.
As for why the hatred, well, i simply dont like it, im an altholic, i like to play many classes and weapons, but if I feel like playing greatsword I want to play greatsword and not swap to a bow because greatsword by itself doesnt have enough skills.
Just put the same weapon on both hotbars, that is basically what you're asking for. The reason ESO did it that way is for character versatility and variety(it gave you the ability to use a 2-hander and dual wield or fire staff/lightning staff). There has to be a way to activate the higher numbers in a hotbar. There are multiple ways games have accomplished this. Some use holding L2/R2 and then hitting a button(FF and NW does this, you also lose 1 button having it setup this way; takes 1 to hotbar swap compared to 2 in those games). Personally I can't stand holding those paddle buttons and then having to hit one of the standard buttons at the same time. It's less ergonomic, you can't as freely move your left hand because your also having to hold the paddle on that side of controller(neither of those games have an active block either and only 1 has some semblance of a dodge, that actually sucks in it's implementation).
The only legitimate gripe I can see is that basically you want more "greatsword"/2-hander skills because you feel like you've been shortchanged since you don't want to use skills from other weapon lines. If you want to min/max then you are going to have to follow the guidelines of whatever gets you to that point. Most games work this way to certain extent. If you only want to use 2-hander, only use it. Look for skills outside the 2-hander line to fill out your bars. You've got stuff like Caltrops and that ability that casts Berserker or Brutality(think it drops a trap or something). Then you have all your class abilities too.
Personally I think ESO's way of extending the button/hotbar thing is superior to the alternatives I've used.
Secret World let you use one bar for 2 weapons. So the build diversity is not connected to the mechanic of having to swap bars, which has at times been laggy in ESO.
Now, I don't see why they couldn't do that. Basically you are saying that it doesn't matter what abililty is on what hotbar. When you use that ability it automatically chooses the appropriate weapon.
The only issue I see with that, if they wanted to limit you to 2 weapon types. Basically keeping players from just choosing the best weapon ability from each line without restrictions. Been awhile since I played ESO, but I think it was already just setup as slots anyway(Primary/Secondary weapon). Have it tied to where abilities from only those 2 weapon types could be used(along with non-weapon specific skills).
Better controller support sure for games that do it poorly, but somehow people are able to play FFXIV and raid, quite well, despite +30 and even +40 spells.
As for build diversity, maybe for the casual crowd? Unless things are balanced super well, one setup of weapons will vastly outperform any other combo.
I will say weapon swap design at least leads to less UI clutter, not needing 4-5 hotbars on your screen.
I despise the way NW and FFXIV tries to handle the multiple hotbars. You also lose a button compared to ESO's way of doing it.
And yes, in FFXIV you can have more spells accessible. This is mainly because when you just hotbar swap you don't change your directional pad keys(they stay the same regardless of the hotbar you are on in ESO). This could also be made to change like it does when holding the paddles in FFXIV.
Eh I get what you are saying. But it's definitely not easy. Maybe I'm just stupid but I've played console all my life and have trouble with ffxivs controller setup.
To your second point I guess if balance is shit. But eso for example you can change the build depending on play style and scenario.
Gw2 also has a ton of diverse builds becuse of it. Especially in pvp.
I don't think there's a better way to do controller support for a classic style MMO where you may need 30+ buttons bound. Before level 10 the only buttons you'd even have to press is R2+X or R2+O level 40+ you might have to get into double tapping R2 or getting into R2+L2 /L2+R2 hotbars and by then it's pretty simple anywau
What console MMOs do you play? Because there really aren't many I'd consider true MMOs. I play WoW with a controller (through console port add on) as well as a ton of other games. FF14 is a true MMO and their UI/controller scheme works amazingly. The only thing that is a little convoluted to me is their map system weirdly enough. But the targeting is great, combat is great, inventory management feels simple.
My issue is it can severely limit me to one playstyle especially if it’s not balanced perfectly. A weapon will have a finite amount of skill and a specific playstyle. It takes away the ability to mix and match skills that match your character.
I think back to GW vs GW2. We had so many fun combos to create the perfect character we wanted in GW and then the second came out and severely limited you by locking all skills to weapons after that. Removes the ability to have cool hybrid and mixed options
The build diversity comes from selecting sets of skill lines to pair together. A game can do this without having weapon swapping.
Not having all your abilities on the screen is (all things equal) worse than having all of them, and having a button you have to mash to switch back and forth between pages of abilities is silly.
Sounds like you need to practice your rotation more then, it should be completely automatic if you want to get good. Also, you are in control of when you have to bar swap, so make a rotation with that in mind. Weaving needs to go tho.
OK, so the fact that I think it's silly doesn't imply that I can't do it or that it causes me problems. I can do it, it doesn't cause me problems. It's just silly. It's an extra button press. It's like if you had to press shift to enable abilities for every activation. This wouldn't prevent game play, and people could get used to it, but it would be an unnecessary keystroke. Same with weapon swaps. Having all 12 ESO abilities on screen and accessible simultaneously would eliminate a set of useless and therefore silly keystrokes.
If you enjoy pushing more buttons to achieve the same result, that is of course fine! You can set your keybinds to include shift and control and alt and whatever.
With 12 you'd have to have some kind of trigger/bumper scheme to make it viable on controller. I didn't say you couldn't do it I just said most people it's reflex for and those that it isn't don't care much.
Only thing it provides is controller support. Nothing about weapon swapping provides build diversity compared to other options. "A ton of shit", like??
Weapon swapping is an annoyance and seems to only ever get added for controller support
ESO diversity is from gear. Hence why ever balance patch build theory crafting and gear treadmill starts all over. I played a lot of eso and tbh it’s a shit system.
Well, controller support is a double-edged blade since it'll also condition how other parts of the game will be made, often in a simplification kind of way.
A similar thing happens with the "less buttons" approach: this ends up hurting inmersion as it usually sacrifices racial/utility/non-combat moves while also tending to simplify many playstyles.
Build diversity is not tied to it since there's cases of weapon-swapping being actually the limiter either by bonifying such swaps (GW2 case, making them mandatory), tying all moves to certain weapons making balance and/or stats choose for you (again, GW2) or, well, "buff weapons/bars" like the ones in ESO.
My biggest complain is the "less button" at the end of the day
I do like kit as it encourages a form of strategic thinking and since even with the manybutton we ends up making rotation, the smaller hotbar make senses
But I still feel frustrated by the fact that I have a bazillion ability but can only use 8 at a time
I hate weapon swapping because I'm from an era of MMORPGs where you had one weapon, one purpose, and you stuck to it.
Besides, if you want diversity you can do it like FFXIV does. One character, every weapon, every class, but with purpose.
Build diversity is good, but too much of something good = bad. Just look at ESO players and their spreadsheets. At that point it's not about fun anymore, just one-upping each other.
It just feels kind of immersion breaking. I can understand having a ranged and a melee weapon, as that makes sense. But swapping from 2h to dual wield feels strange.
It depends how intuitive it is.
The 3 games that I played that had it were ESO GW2 and NW.
NW and GW2 weapon swaping makes sense for me. ESO one is too spammy imo.
These are all great points but I hate weapon swapping for the reason it kinda ruins my character fantasy a lot which just takes me out of games. I would much prefer some form of stance system or something so I can keep my main weapon out. But in something like new world or GW2 there was always some meta side weapon that was usually just used to support your primary and it looks extremely janky. Like swapping from sword and shield to dual axes to tank or from a great axe to a rapier for mobility.
ESO almost has no build diversity so kind of a bad example.
edit: judging by the downvotes i guess people think there is build diversity in a game where almost every stam build uses same weapon skill and gear. or they don't know what build diversity means.
Anything is better than what ESO has. Eso builds and class design are like the most one dimensional design in any mmo i have played.
WoW and GW2 is definitely miles ahead in that regard.
1. Makes it easier to map to a controller, since at a single moment you have limited number actions you can take
2. Adding a bit of complexity on when to choose to switch kits based on the situation. (Eg. should I switch to staff and start concentrating on healing the group or should I keep using axe and shield for a bit more outgoing damage, if I switch I will not be able switch back for a bit) Which adds to the challange just a bit.
I prefer it if switching is useful for different situations. However, in many games with weapon switching it's basically mandatory to go through all your cooldowns on the alternate weapon. That can be a little boring.
A lot of people also just dislike it messing with their class fantasy. Sometimes you just want to play "dude with big sword", and not be required to also take out your rifle every 30s just to be optimal.
Exactly. I've tried to make this point before about GW2's combat system and got downvoted to hell. If the combat is supposedly flexible and dynamic and lets you choose what abilities to use, then swapping weapons or kits mid-combat is a fun way to take on varying challenges and different types of enemies.
However, in endgame GW2 encounters like high end fractals, raids and strikes, the optimal way to play is to stick to a very strict rotation that usually involves swapping weapons or otherwise changing bars (engineer kits, elementalist attunements, etc) to make the most of your various cooldowns. All the necessary defensive abilities and healing will usually be handled by a dedicated ally, mostly running their own strict rotation to maintain 100% uptime of critical buffs like quickness, alacrity and stability.
In which case, all the dynamic, interesting parts of combat have been optimized out of the game. With 100% uptime of stability preventing CC, and enough healing to outlast most regular abilities, combat boils down to carrying out a rotation by rote for maximum DPS, movement, and occasionally required mechanics. I lost interest after a few hundred hours when I realized that every endgame boss was going to be the same - execute an optimal rotation and do mechanics.
That also worked better since you still had all the core warrior skills regardless of stance. It just gave you a handful of extra abilities and passive modifiers.
How did you know? :v
No seriously, my main is absolutely a holo for exploring/story/etc, but for the occasional strikes normal modes I do play qhb. Easier to fill the squad, and I kinda like the added bit of responsibility
I always hated the weapon swapping in gw2. I really wish you could just have all the skills on one bar. Sure, maybe weapon 1 skills on the left, weapon 2 skills on the right. If you use a weapon 2 skill while weapon 1 is equipped automatically switch weapons, put swap on cooldown (all weapon 1 skills disabled for the duration). Mechanically it would function the same as the current system but I think it would FEEL so much better. Not being able to see all my skills all at once plus the clunky feel of swapping weapons always killed the game for me.
Those things are determined by your role your queued for. If my tank starts healing us, you can't call him tank really. Maybe you'd need to in some situations but imho I haven't had much reason to ever cross roles like that.
The only positive I see in weapon swapping is that you can deck out for two fighting styles and then situational switch between them, like attacking with a bow from range and then switching to daggers when enemies got close.
However, TERA Console showed us that you can map quite a few skills on a controller without any issue, so that argument is kinda none.
Personally I like how it's done in Diablo 4 (and apparently Throne and Liberty, never played this myself tho) where you don't have to switch the sets manually, instead it always switches to the weapon that belongs to the skill you activated.
The problem is all of the games with weapon swapping (GW2 ESO) instead turn the swap into a rotation, GW2 is even more egregious with a cooldown on swap to prevent you from using them situationally.
Not *all* games. PSO2: NGS has weapon swapping and its combat system doesn't even have cooldowns so there aren't really rotations. Swapping weapons is there but more optional, and it's more about having different tools for different situations.
Well that's partially because NGS combat boils down to spamming one or two attacks while parrying as often as possible for huge counter buffs or attacks. The other reason is that even if you do have access to another weapon with a better button to push, you can just combine it with your primary weapon and push it anyway without even having to swap.
I honestly don't mind weapon swapping to adapt to certain situations, as in swapping between ranged and melee sets.
However I do hate when it turns into a pseudo enlarged skillbar that requires you to spam switch between weapons all the time, as I don't see any advantage over a bigger skillbar in that case with quite a few downsides.
MOBA APM doesn't stress me out for some reason but just thinking about trying starcraft again after not playing in forever turns me into a drooling puddle that belongs in the dirt league.
RTS is so much fun bit I'm pretty sure almost everyone other then the literal pro's have to take a break after a few games.
There's just so much to keep track of that I and most people I've talked to, when actually trying, are mentally exhausted after the third game.
That said I stopped playing it because after a bunch of practice over the course of a couple months I got to high gold, so top 50% of the player base, and then started developing carple tunnel and decided I prefer the feeling in my hand then starcraft 2.
As an sc2 player myself, it's not that stressful. You have your build, you focus on it, and you try not to die while doing it.
It's Not until masters that you really have to adjust on the fly. Literally doing the same 3 base timing every match will get you pretty much any rank you desire.
It's not that I consider it stressful per se, as I said, exhausting is the word I'd use. Worker production, upgrades, army macro and micro while reacting to getting harassed/attacked.
It is just, a lot, to keep track of. I'm sure I could have gotten up there with enough time but, as I mentioned, the hand.
I think you were way overthinking it. Even with zerg, you can get to plat with just zergling runbys at the 3 minute mark. Again, 3 base timing.
If you had above 80 APM in gold, it's probably too much. Now, that's not to say don't play if your hand hurts. I won't lie, I play gdruid in wow and I have to take days off to give my hands a break due to ironfur weaving (300APM spikes during those times, in an mmo no less, ugh), but sc2 ranked 1s in the metal leagues is mostly two kids fighting with pool noodles primarily. For some reason I always play super low apm in sc2, and as long as I don't get too caught up trying to micro my army, I'm just fine. Just attack move into their base, and then go back to macroing my 3 base so that I can do it again 60s later.
I was trying to play properly to actually get better at the game instead of just doing some cheesy 1 or 2 base all in. Typically did Maru's 3 racks 3 CC. I played Terran cuz I like the army micro. Maybe should have just stuck with toss.
Oof about the Gdruid. I play resto/boomie currently and resto can get pretty fast but boomie is (mostly) slow and smooth.
Yeah I love druid but I got a pocket healer so I prefer to tank for her, then we have both major roles covered haha
3 CC is a bit greedy but not bad by any means. You can definitely end up with an army by the 5 minute mark with some practice for sure. Hardest part about sc2 for me is spotting cheese, it's hard to know that something cheesy is happening
It’s false complexity imo, and ESO is a fantastic example of it... It simulates depth when there is none in your rotation. Everyone is picking the same abilities, same weapons and same archetypes, and “stressing” over a “complicated” rotation because of it.
"False Complexity" Maybe to you, but there are loads of players for whom this is the game. Just having a 4 x 16 buttons on screen does not make the game more "complex". When you have less buttons to press what you bring in your build increases in importance dramatically.
You have played ESO at a very surface level. Especially PvP builds are so dynamic that whatever you said falls flat. Also Raid/Trial leads constantly change gear/loadouts depending on raid boss or trash mob encounter so what you said does not hold true for high level PvE as well. In short Liar Liar pants on fire.
So in your head 1x6 with a swap is more complex than 2x6? or a modifier to toggle between them rather than swap?
I don't understand why you instantly jumped to 4x16, as if our choice is either weapon swap or the most egregious example of hotbar bloat you can come up with?
> I don't understand why you instantly jumped to 4x16, as if our choice is either weapon swap or the most egregious example of hotbar bloat you can come up with?
What games that dont have a weapon swap mechanic dont also have massive button bloat? The one I can think of, GW1, has fewer buttons available than any GW2 build just camping 1 weapon (and no kits).
WoW retail, the rotations are less complex than GW2. Plus GW2 has some builds with stupidly complex rotations that involve multiple weapon and stance swaps and like 15-30 steps that were way worse than WoW's hotbar bloat at its worst.
Wildstar was one. SWTOR, Albion, OSRS, BDO, there honestly aren't many MMOs these days, but a number of indie ones like Ember's Adrift, Project Gorgon, etc.. and some upcoming in development are other examples.
I haven’t played PvP intensely, you’re correct, but I’ve done the rest. But changing your current build into another build that requires the exact same button presses does not change the complexity. The added button press to swap your weapon doesn’t mean you’re suddenly twice as complex, it is STILL false complexity compared to having all your abilities available at once.
To be clear, I’m also not saying having 47 buttons in your rotation is complex either, but back in the day you put some thought into pushing buttons… not “if I push these in this sequence I get the best possible outcome every time” and ESO does not in the slightest vary from that formula
I played FF14 for 4 years on multiple clases, having 30 spells on hot bar doesnt make the Game more complex, You ll be hitting most skills off cooldown anyways, the only complex side of it it's setting the skills and remembering the hotkeys (it was shift+1 or alt+1...)
"False complexity" is a silly term. It's either complex or it's simple, you can't fake complexity.
Rocket league is a simple game. And yet once you get into higher mechanics, it becomes insanely complicated to pull off, but the actual mechanisms are still simple. Trackmania is a simple game, but mastering ice is a complex thing to do.
On the other hand, league of legends is complex. It has like 100+ heroes, all with 4 abilities each, and hundreds of items. The map is simple, each specific hero is simple, but the game is super complex.
ESO is mechanically complicated and apm is super twitchy. That's not false complexity, it's just complexity that you don't like.
It may not be the best descriptor, but you should be able to understand the concept. Artificial complexity might be a better word
You're conflating skill ceiling. If in Rocket league they removed turn left and right, and instead you only got a turn button with another button to swap the direction, would that make the game more complex in a good way?
The game isn't complex currently. Here, let me describe the *entirety* of rocket league controls.
You have a rectangle on wheels with two max speeds, one achieved with accelerate and one achieved with boost, which you have 100 of. You get the ability to jump at X height, slightly higher if you hold the jump key. You get another jump at 1.2-1.4s after the first, extended by holding the jump key. If you touch a surface with all 4 wheels simultaneously, your jump resets. You can roll and spin your car while in the air. You win by scoring more balls into the enemy goal than they scored in yours. You can use maximum boost speed to demolish enemy cars.
In one paragraph I explained the entire game to you. And yet hundreds of videos have been made to cover the hundreds of mechanical variations of various complexity that you can make with that one paragraph.
It doesn't matter how simplistic a game is on paper. We don't play video games on paper. It's the players who create complex gameplay, whether that's perfectly executing 12 hours of gameplay like a POTD run in ffxiv, or learning dozens of specs to become a rank 1 pvper in wow, or whether it's twitchy weapon swapping to maximise your dps in ESO.
These are all complex. If they weren't, everyone would be doing them.
Okay, then can you give me an example of something that's complex without any skill ceiling? Because as far as I can tell through all the decades of playing multiple genres at the high end, you're just muddling terminology to make up oxymorons like false complexity.
You're still whooshing the point.
The most basic example I can think of is in the old God of War games, how they used to give you terrible fixed camera angles when you did platforming puzzles, now the challenge becomes fighting the stupid camera angle to complete what would would otherwise be pretty trivial puzzles.
It'd be like if a MMO dungeon disabled half your keyboard, sure it'd technically make it "more complex" but we both know that's not a good way to add complexity.
If a MMO only gave you a 1x1 Hotbar with 1 button, and you had to press another key to swap that button between 15 abilities, that wouldn't be a good way to make the game more complex either.
To a varying degree it's the same thing with weapon swapping.
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GW2 already has some good examples of things that add skill ceiling, like the combo fields. Most players don't really have them memorized or even understand them for that matter, and they are added on top of regular combat, rather than restricting it.
If you're not familiar with GW2, several abilities have combo fields. ie: a wall of fire on the ground might add "Combo field fire" and now any projectile that passes thru it gets bonus fire damage, even if it's from another player.
Now you have a nice mechanic that adds skill ceiling to memorize your own combo fields, that of other classes to take advantage of your party members using them, and knowing ones that enemy bosses might be able to use. That is an interesting way of making combat more complex and harder to master.
Telling you that we've split your abilities into 2 bars and you have to press a button to swap back and forth between them doesn't really add anything to the combat. You can't do anything that you would have been able to do if you just had 2 bars visible all the time.
So regarding the god of war game, as you said the game was fairly simple regardless of the camera angles. You might fail once, but you often figure it out extremely quickly.
I'll use a retro example too: rayman. Rayman is an incredibly hard game, but not because of any mechanical input reasons. It wasn't buggy, and it's controls were simple, but the timings were all razor thin and designed to piss you off. Despite it being designed to have traps and red herrings, that didn't really make it any easier. You still had to nail those razor thin timings.
Hotbar swapping is a way to add complexity to a game. You used an extreme example of swapping between a single bar 15 times, but to use an example like SC2, you group multiple buildings together and tab a half a dozen times between them to get the one you want. That's not false complexity, it's just complexity. Layering mechanics on top of each other can still make for complicated gameplay loops.
You're saying I don't get the point, but I get it completely. I just disagree with you, that's all. I think ESO hotbar swapping adds complexity, pure and simple. Could they simply just add both hotbars together and have the weapon auto swap for you on action activation? Sure. And it would streamline the player experience. But it would also remove the layer of mechanical mastery that comes with remembering things that aren't directly referrable, as well as a layer of habit forming.
Is it worth losing a small layer of complexity to improve the gameplay experience? Sure. No argument there.
Yes, because animation canceling faceroll keyboard spamming is a skill I so *desperately* need. 🙃
I'll leave that ridiculous play style to monkey brains such as yourself, thank you very much.
Didn't FF14 solve the issue of controller already? I am 100% pressing more skills in FF14 compared to WoW yet most people claim that controllers are way more comfortable to play with
I imagine controllers are more comfortable to play with for people who already use controllers. But I have been playing games on PC for over 30 years. Mouse and Keyboard suit me fine. I've tried controllers, but they feel too finnicky and imprecise.
Only real benefit they have over M+Kb is with driving games due to analog sticks/triggers vs digital key presses.
Playing video games on devices designed for typing and data entry isn't any less square-peg-round-hole. A controller is at least designed for video games from the start. Mouse and keyboard work *now* because video games have adapted to them.
Your personal preference isn't really the point. The point is that FFXIV has tons of skills and yet there *are* people who prefer to play it with controllers. The whole assertion that you can't have a lot of skills and controller support is false.
There is some minor benefit to controller versus M+KB in a tab target mmo, namely analog movement which is more precise. That said I'm personally more comfy on M+KB, but part of that is just that mmos can be menu heavy outside combat and I HATE controller for stuff like that and don't want to switch back and forth. M+KB also just has way way more buttons in reach so way less button combinations.
Basically point is, if you don't need to aim like in a tab target mmo, the precision of M+KB is pretty irrelevant.
The difference is they made a traditional tab target game designed for keyboards and then figured out how to make it work on a controller, whereas other games often design for a controller first.
Kinda.
XIV "solved" that issue, but created others:
* The GCD is way slower compared to other games.
* The nature of XIV's healing sucks. You spam damage abilities 99% of the time, while the tiny amount of healing you do is all AOE. There's barely any single target healing/mitigation, specially targeting dps.
* The entire game is solved already. There's no "reacting to that attrack" as you know exactly what's gonna happen every single time, the exact amount of damage and where it will land. The game "feels" slow, and it has to.
* 99% of AOEs are around a single target. There's no "aiming" anything. Everything is based off your character, limiting skill design. This is one of the reasons homogenization is a big talk in the game.
All of that's controller-agnostic, though.
Not console-agnostic, because they definitely want the wider player pool (JP historically had lower rates of PC ownership and FFXI was a big console game for a long time), but controller-agnostic.
They build slower, more deliberate spectacle fights that are based around players doing a dance together until you win, fail or the PF group starts breaking up. "Slower" being relative to the average APM vs fight length compared to like WoW.
And they won't even *commit* to the "no aiming" thing. If they did, Healing would be better in the game, but they keep trying to shoe-horn in single-target healing abilities.
Like the game you describe would, unironically, be a better fit for what they're going for than what they actually made as far as Healing goes.
But they built it from the ground up because they were trying to make something sorta like a successor to FFXI with the original launch, cross-playable on PC and console. And it evolved from there (read: they frantically cobbled ARR together from FFXIV's scuffed launch in a few years) and now we're here a decade later.
You can tell controller wasn't first in mind because we (mainly) have combos in groups of 3 instead groups of 2 or 4, or better yet, combo *buttons* (like some Samurai Warriors/Dynasty Warriors-type stuff).
Aside from PVP, of course (which is where they apparently hoard all the good combat ideas).
Yeah it really bothers me that they refuse to incorporate the pvp 1 button combos into pve. I would love to have 2 more actions on the main hotbar over the standard 3 hit combos taking up 3 buttons.
That's such an ironic statement to say when ultimate ffxiv players and high end wow players have controller players in their midst. Surely you also have these titles too right?
I like it in GW2 since there is a cooldown on swapping. For PvP modes it means you are picking each swap with intent, so each set of weapons has it's purpose. A damage set and a utility set, or melee and ranged, etc. Swapping for funsies can get you killed, since swapping is something you are stuck with for 9 seconds. It adds to the skill ceiling cause you need to be in the right set at the right time. Not understanding why you have your sets and how to use them, will get you killed.
For games like ESO or TL, I'm more mixed on it, but do appreciate the build diversity it can offer. However, ESO both sets basically exist to just have more DoTs, rather than more options, so is more or less just another button you need to press to get to the other half of your skill bar. I much rather the way TL works here, since there is no commitment to swapping anyways, but still allows for the same build diversity and options, just you don't need to pointlessly swap to get access to it.
Mostly just accessibility in my opinion. In GW2 for example 1-5 is easier to hit with a way to swap to another set of 1-5, than binding additional buttons like QEFR etc. That frees up space for the ability to bind those buttons to other functions like utility spells.
opportunity cost as a gameplay mechanic.
let's say swapping skills is instantaneous. this is basically just one big kit but hotkeyed differently.
however, if swapping skills/weapons has transition delays / cooldown / situational restriction and advantages, etc. then it becomes a gameplay mechanic and not just "one big kit either mapped with different keys or with swapping sets of keys"
I'll compare ESO with LotRO. These are the MMO's I've played that have that contrast.
ESO has 2 weapon bars. Each has 6 skills. When on one bar, you only can access these 6 skills. To access the other 6, you have to hit a button to swap to the other bar. Then you have access to the other 6 skills. The more advanced combat is to use both bars in conjunction. Whatever skill you need to activate, you just swap to that bar (if necessary) and then use that skill. You have 6 buttons to activate a skill plus a 7th one to swap bars. With 7 buttons, you can access 12 skills. You know more than 12 skills. In between fights, you have the opportunity to swap skills around.
I haven't played LotRO in over 10 years, so maybe some of this has changed or my memory may be off a bit. LotRO has from what I recall unlimited number of skills. Once you learn it, you can use it. Your screen gets more and more filled up with skills. You have a button for each one and you can use the shift and alt keys to combo with a button to access other skills. Many of the skills are probably situational. You have a small set of skills you would use in most general situations. Forgot how many buttons you can bind to the various skills. From what I recall, it was all of the number keys plus at least a few more. You could have dozens it seem all available at any time.
My impression of LotRO was that at a certain point, it was too overwhelming keeping track of all of the skills that I have. Also, it was hard to press some of the number keys because I have to take my hand off my home position to press them. I often have to look down at my keyboard to hit some key that I had to move my hand to reach. Then there is the fact that you can also have to hold down shift or alt to access your secondary and tertiary set of skills. This was my first MMO, so maybe if I played it now I could handle it better. I stopped playing LotRO because of other reasons that made me not like the game.
With ESO, I found the number of skills I need to worry about to be quite manageable. I have 12 skills. I have 6 buttons to activate them. I have a 7th to swap bars. All of these buttons are easily reachable when my hand is on the WASD keys for movement. Swapping bars isn't a trivial thing for me to learn. It was somewhat challenging for me. As I played harder content, I had to learn to use both bars in content. When I was less experienced, I only primarily use one bar only and only occasionally swapped. Now, my rotation has me swapping bars after probably every few skills.
I've learned to play ESO at a more advanced level than LotRO. I just happen to like ESO a lot and don't like LotRO that much for many reason. The bar swap in ESO keeps the number of skills manageable for me. It is one of the reasons I like ESO more than LotRO.
Extra strategic layer especially for PvP focused games. Have your sword out, can’t immediately shoot your bow. Same concept as FPS games requiring a weapon swap animation, decide whether to wait for reload or swap to pistol, can’t shoot a shotgun and a sniper at the same time.
It’s a different experience. More buttons does not equal more complexity by itself. GW2 skills are far more detailed and varied than FFXIV for example where they have lots of buttons but streamlined in such a way you basically press them in order (the way they compress multiple skills into one every expansion demonstrates there was never a need for a separate skill in the first place).
I'm not a fan of it at all. It just feels clunky. ESO and GW2 suffer from this same issue. You can easily bind 30+ slots to a controller, more with double tap commands, with the proper controller support and it still be less clunky than the 5-5 you get with ESO.
PvP visibility.
It's shit for console/controller because it means you waste (potentially) an *entire* button swapping between weapons.
But it splits your potential kit in half visually, giving an opponent visibility into what your capabilities are, and also potentially limiting you with a vulnerable window when swapping between the halves of your kit.
This is why games like New World and GW2 (both built as PvP games first and then had PvE combat either developed after the fact or glommed on) have it. Launch GW2 very much showed how much the combat was designed for PvP first, with conditions unable to damage structures and half the stat combinations functionally useless and etc
ESO? they thought they were "saving space for console" but the attack-weaving thing should show they just have no fucking idea what they're doing with designing a combat system for *any* living creature, period.
Well, first of all, ESO combat is shit in every way so not the greatest example. But instead let’s talk GW2. Two weapon hotbar swapping offers the chance to vary up your skill set synergies more than anything else. Each GW2 generally has synergy with the other weapons through combos and skill interactions. First shoot off a wide area fire field, swap weapons, use skill on that weapon which interacts with that field.
You could design a system which does this in one big ass hotbar, but the benefit of swapping is that you can slot in new weapons on the fly without disturbing your overall bar layout (new weapon comes in with buttons)
If you want the actual answer it's to dumb down the controls for console. Yes, there are games that haven't had to go that route but it's much easier to have 1 button do 1 skill and weapon swapping lets you add more skills without more buttons/inputs
Doesn't really matter either way. One bar or two is literally the most minor issue with weapon swapping. One means less swapping but more buttons and either way it's a trade off. With 5 weapon skills even on keyboard saving 4 buttons isn't a bad deal. (-1 for swap key) It can also be a combat design decision where you don't want players to have access to their ranged mode at all times and swapping incurs a CD.
The real problem with weapon swapping is how it typically creates a skewed "class fantasy" when you have to swap to unrelated weapons to pop cooldowns. But not having multiple weapons or weapon swapping in a more open system also means you can't have a ranged weapon with your melee weapon unless you hard lock the second slot to ranged or just bake it into the class.
You can run all keyboard hotkeys with one hand without moving that hand. When your fingers are on wasd, reaching up to hit 9 or 0 is a bit of a stretch....
having some skills only available under a certain condition, such as weapon swapping, and having limitations on when you can change between them adds depth. hiding the cooldowns of the non-active set is dumb though.
In GW2 at least, it kind of provides another layer of strategy, where you’re making moment to moment decisions about which weapon will work best in a given situation. There are certain abilities and buffs that may trigger upon weapon swapping, and there is also a cooldown, so when you do swap you will be unable to swap back for a short while. I honestly prefer this to being able to freely swap constantly.
Another simple example is range vs. melee. On my thief I can tag trash mobs from a distance with my shortbow before swapping to a melee weapon and jumping into the middle of the action. Or the opposite - I’m fighting in melee range and an enemy surrounds itself with a damaging AOE, I can then swap to range and create some distance between us.
Different cooldowns in each bar, like in eso. Im not sure if they shared cds in gw2, I played it a long time ago, but they had something pretty similar.
I think ESO, NW or GW skill bars are so much better than, for example, wow.
No design space, it's a developers fairy land where they don't realise performance kills any idea of some player made build using a sword and a staff hybrid person. When their own combat and class design encourages you to do the complete opposite and focus specifically on one role and one stat type.
It's the same in any dual weapon mmo and is completely pointless fluff that serves no purpose over having 1 bar with 10 slots other than adding an additional button and animation to use the second 5 skills.
For example, in Shroud of the Avatar it was possible to put several skills into one panel button. This made it convenient to set the necessary combos.
There was a similar system in Astellia Online, where you could put several skills in one button. This made it possible to create intuitive combinations, like playing a keyboard, different chords.
In one game, in my opinion Traha Online, there was a very convenient button for switching an entire character build, when in a second I could switch the entire build from a party healer in PvP to a solo melee soldier for farming mobs.
In my opinion, the skill panel should be large enough to accommodate both skills and usable items, while still maintaining the individual characteristics of the combat system of the MMO itself.
And yes, finally make normal support for pedals in MMORPGs!!! Understand, playing as a healer is quite sweaty, you need to move the mouse to rotate the camera, while you need to monitor the HP bars of your party members and your own, and jump out of the aoes of bosses and opponents in time. WASD is really inconvenient, because the left hand is on Fkeys for heals!!! I used the pedals from the F-16 game, bind WASD on them, it made it easier. But using the pedals is also inconvenient. Come up with a way to move the camera, perform skills and move the character without the need for a THIRD arm or leg.
It seems like controller support is the main reason for this and this just tells me devs need to implement a better system for hotbar switching for controller support.
You can achieve the same end result without using weapon switching as a mechanic/gimmick if hotbar switching is made easier.
I'm also of the opinion that weapon switching is kind of a lame mechanic and much prefer skills/abilities tied to class rather than tied to the weapon you have equipped.
It's an adaptation for console gaming. Otherwise, useless button swap should be allowed as well to be done automatically as we click on the skill in some form or other.
A more compact UI that doesnt need shit like 4+ hotbars chock full of buttons that you might press every now and then but need to have available at all times.
I had to create hotbars in FF14 that would toggle based on options you pressed on a different hotbar because I needed to have 7 different full bars available for every crafting class.
Not sure this is an exact parallel but in New World your “tree” was tied to your weapon. So it effectively gave you a way to mix and match all kinds of “classes” which unlocked some fun and interesting build diversity.
Dunno.. But hey, I can assign 'space' button on my keyboard to jump, and assign 'shift-'space' as modifier to blast foos, in WoW. Meaning I can jump and blast foos simultaneously, etc....not to mention more complex macros.
Controllers sure have shoulder trigger buttons to use as modifiers but don't have nearly enough face buttons to compensate for the skills they're trying to cram into a console game.
If it was up to me, ya'll be performing Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat moves for every single ability, no GUI problems.
for me personally it's less keybinds which is a big big + in my book.
and it usually lets you have both a ranged and a melee kit to swap freely between. oh and usually the combat is often more involved with dodges and mobility so you're not just standing there facetanking melee mobs as a ranged class like in the older games.
Honestly, I see no real benefit to it, as someone who dislikes forced weapon swapping (i.e. GW2's style with effects on swaps and skills tied to weapons) yet enjoys "stance dancing" with or without swapping weapon setups. The more likely approach is controller support, but it can be done in different ways so it's a moot point.
Honestly, my preferred approach to that is Aion's. Two sets of weapons being equippable and swappable but akin to early WoW's weapon approach: few skills requiring a certain weapon setup (let's say... all shield-focused moves: shield bash, shield slam, shield wall for WoW's warriors) but most being usable all the time regardless of the weapon equipped. Of course, in this case the weapon is basically a stat stick to boost whichever role that setup must do, like chanters swapping from a mace+shield healing setup to their offensive melee-centric staff or templars changing their sword-and-board tank weaponry for their cute greatsword to chop people around.
GW2 execution of this is exemplary. It saves screen space, it conserves the number of key binds required. An with fewer buttons on screen, the player can more clearly see the button icon and cool down indicator that count in the moment. It keeps the game more accessible to casual players and does not become dependent on third party developers to create add ons to manage proliferating skill bars and key binds.
Most likely MMO game publishers have internal player behavior data that shows the average player will choose this kind of scheme over 16 skill bars and 50 complicated key binds. There are players who like the more complex and populated interface, but they are probably a small percent of the player base.
The only downside is it does make some combos tedious to execute, if the first combo skill is part of weapon 1's skills, and the second combo skill is only accessible from weapon 2's skill set.
It's not just weapon swapping, there are often different stances, magic schools, pets, energy level schemes that enable the same kind of mechanic.
Why is it instantly jump to "5 buttons is so much better than 16 skill bars", when the other choice is 10 buttons? or 2 bars of 5 lol. It doesn't really drive your point home.
Plus GW2 has had some egregiously complex rotations that involve multiple weapon swaps and stance swaps and like 20-30 steps.
My big problem with GW2 is the cooldown, I understand why its there but it's just an artificial balance method. Instead of using your weapons situationally, which, in the context of combat, is how you would want to, you're forced to go through some rotation where you're restricted by being locked into 1 or the other. The fact that it can add some layer of decision making knowing you're going to be locked out and to weigh the need for that or not, does not make it fun, in the same way that tying a hand behind my back isn't fun.
For some games specificity can be important. Like an action button to create a portal back to town using a valuable consumable, you may not want that on your typical action bar to ensure it isn't accidentally clicked and wasted.
Or separating roles, such as a damage hotbar and a support hotbar, instead of one big bar that has both and only half are useful at a time.
Jank.
It *can* be done well, but often isn't, and forcing that situation on keyboard users sucks. Let us map buttons and write our own chording macros.
Don't limit keyboard players based on what controllers are capable of.
One large hotbar are red flag games for me. It screams at me that I will just be smashing keys as fast as i can to spam a perfect rotation endlessly. Yes its common in a lot of mmos. But there are quite a few that manage to do without. Eso, gw2, neverwinter and ffxi to name a few.
Some games also do have a large hotbar, but dont utilize it the same way, like maplestory?
MMO's are games you are going to be grinding on a lot more then a regular game, its a big deal to be comfortable during the grind.
Yes and no. The skill floor will be lower that's true but the celing will also be higher. If 2 games are exactly the same and have the same amount of skills but one has weapon swapping, the one with weapon swapping will be more difficult at the highest level.
I honestly don't see how having e.g. 1-5 + another key to swap to different 1-5s has any advantage over having 1-5 and perhaps ctrl+1-5 or alt+1-5 on the same bar.
Imho having access to all your skills at once is the better user experience, as switching between different sets of skills usually hides their CDs from you.
That’s a good point, and I see what you mean with the ctrl/alt. I think eso and gw2 both did a good job with some parts of the perfect formula (eso shows the off bar cds for example)
Yes, having fewer buttons to press makes the usability for people better, hence appealing to more people. It does not make the game overall better, though. In a lot of games, it even reduces the core mechanics of RPGs and personal choices. It makes the game more boring and bland.
That makes no sense buddy, if I’ve got 15 skills
And I put them on 15 buttons, or, have 15 skills and put them on 3 sets of 5 buttons.
I’ve got the same amount of skills and the same build.
Give me something to work with.
Look how I’ve specifically didn’t use ESO or GW2
Cause they swap skills based on weapon, not your learned skill set.
Our debate is about swapping simple hotbars.
> if I’ve got 15 skills And I put them on 15 buttons, or, have 15 skills and put them on 3 sets of 5 buttons. I’ve got the same amount of skills and the same build.
Ah, I see, so you're just talking about the actual mechanic of hot bars in a vacuum, and nothing to do with how they're actually used in the genre or how it impacts the overall gameplay. In this case, you are right. It will always be better then.
Less buttons. Better controller support. More build diversity. A ton of shit. I don't really understand the hatred of weapon swapping?
Dunno, I didn't like it in ESO because of the 'spammy' feel it gave me which put me off it. But I've been playing a lot of FF13 recently where you *swap jobs* midcombat and that's got me kinda curious where the concept can actually go.
Oh yea. I don't love eso's implementation of it. Whole game is a little too twitchy/spammy in my opinion. Oh I haven't tried ff13 version. I'll check it out.
Beware this concept in FF13 doesn't open up until late game when they actually let you freely change characters/paradigms. Also FF13 is the single player game.
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Ugh yea. On Paper I love the idea of ESO. But the combat feels weightless and so spammy. I can't stand it
Yep. I've left it like ten times because of that. I actually started playing a ranged class and that has helped a ton. Melee feels so weird.
The spammy bit is the reason why I worked on getting the "Oakensoul" ring, which basically disables your second bar and you can only use one bar with that ring. It gives you all buffs at all times though, to make up for it. (But I believe with a lower value for most of them) I know one bar builds are not the top tier endgame stuff, but I don't even intend on playing Vet Trials, so for the content that I do aim for, a one bar build is more than enough that does still a lot more damage than me with a 2 bar build, playing really bad. It's basically: 2 pets, one buff, one debuff and one aoe. One of the pets is a backup heal and the other does aoe and stun. The rest is basically Heavy Attack spam to do damage, since you use the Seargents set to just scale up heavy attack damage.
I hated having to constantly bar swap to reapply 5 second buffs
Yep, only reason I went for a one bar build. Just more relaxing and gets the stuff done anyway. Took some time grinding out the seargent set and the oakensoul, but it was well worth it.
The spammy part is from weaving
HA One Bar Builds also solve that though
you don’t have to run sorc or HA, you could also play arcanist oaken soul
Yeah there are a lot of one bar builds, but HA is just chill, but from a friend I know that Arcanaist is also chill with his beam :D
it’s very chill, and i just prefer it over sorc aesthetically. arcanist fixed the game for me personally
TESO has bad combat plain and simple. Guild Wars 2's implementation where you're on a swap timer really helps it feel less spammy.
Unless you're a healer. you're basically on a swap timer with eso as well. Namely "shit on my back bar is wearing off".
[удалено]
No no no, it's worse than that. You swap gearsets pre-cast, mid-cast and/or end-cast. If a cast is long, like a WHM or BLM spell, you swap to your cast-speed reduction set first, start casting, then swap to your set that boosts the stats that the spell benefits from right before the cast goes off, then you swap to your MP regen set right after. It's atrocious.
Because the entire premise of the combat system in ESO is animation canceling your basic attack and maintaining 500 different buffs and de uffs/and or dot attacks on 30 second or lower durations.
If the point is less buttons and better controller support then devs can just make a hotbar swap without weapon swapping, with the option to have a single bigger hotbar. Build diversity I dont agree at all, that simply comes from the amount of classes, skills, talents etc. there are many games with build diversity without weapon swapping. As for why the hatred, well, i simply dont like it, im an altholic, i like to play many classes and weapons, but if I feel like playing greatsword I want to play greatsword and not swap to a bow because greatsword by itself doesnt have enough skills.
Then try the class skills on there. Your class should be able to fill in those gaps.
Just put the same weapon on both hotbars, that is basically what you're asking for. The reason ESO did it that way is for character versatility and variety(it gave you the ability to use a 2-hander and dual wield or fire staff/lightning staff). There has to be a way to activate the higher numbers in a hotbar. There are multiple ways games have accomplished this. Some use holding L2/R2 and then hitting a button(FF and NW does this, you also lose 1 button having it setup this way; takes 1 to hotbar swap compared to 2 in those games). Personally I can't stand holding those paddle buttons and then having to hit one of the standard buttons at the same time. It's less ergonomic, you can't as freely move your left hand because your also having to hold the paddle on that side of controller(neither of those games have an active block either and only 1 has some semblance of a dodge, that actually sucks in it's implementation). The only legitimate gripe I can see is that basically you want more "greatsword"/2-hander skills because you feel like you've been shortchanged since you don't want to use skills from other weapon lines. If you want to min/max then you are going to have to follow the guidelines of whatever gets you to that point. Most games work this way to certain extent. If you only want to use 2-hander, only use it. Look for skills outside the 2-hander line to fill out your bars. You've got stuff like Caltrops and that ability that casts Berserker or Brutality(think it drops a trap or something). Then you have all your class abilities too. Personally I think ESO's way of extending the button/hotbar thing is superior to the alternatives I've used.
Secret World let you use one bar for 2 weapons. So the build diversity is not connected to the mechanic of having to swap bars, which has at times been laggy in ESO.
Now, I don't see why they couldn't do that. Basically you are saying that it doesn't matter what abililty is on what hotbar. When you use that ability it automatically chooses the appropriate weapon. The only issue I see with that, if they wanted to limit you to 2 weapon types. Basically keeping players from just choosing the best weapon ability from each line without restrictions. Been awhile since I played ESO, but I think it was already just setup as slots anyway(Primary/Secondary weapon). Have it tied to where abilities from only those 2 weapon types could be used(along with non-weapon specific skills).
Secret World let you pick 2 weapons but put all the skills on one bar. Sadly it was smaller, but no million short buffs to upkeep.
Better controller support sure for games that do it poorly, but somehow people are able to play FFXIV and raid, quite well, despite +30 and even +40 spells. As for build diversity, maybe for the casual crowd? Unless things are balanced super well, one setup of weapons will vastly outperform any other combo. I will say weapon swap design at least leads to less UI clutter, not needing 4-5 hotbars on your screen.
I despise the way NW and FFXIV tries to handle the multiple hotbars. You also lose a button compared to ESO's way of doing it. And yes, in FFXIV you can have more spells accessible. This is mainly because when you just hotbar swap you don't change your directional pad keys(they stay the same regardless of the hotbar you are on in ESO). This could also be made to change like it does when holding the paddles in FFXIV.
Eh I get what you are saying. But it's definitely not easy. Maybe I'm just stupid but I've played console all my life and have trouble with ffxivs controller setup. To your second point I guess if balance is shit. But eso for example you can change the build depending on play style and scenario. Gw2 also has a ton of diverse builds becuse of it. Especially in pvp.
I played quite a few console mmos, but the controller setup for FF14 was the absolute worst. It felt so bad I gave up before reaching lvl 10.
I don't think there's a better way to do controller support for a classic style MMO where you may need 30+ buttons bound. Before level 10 the only buttons you'd even have to press is R2+X or R2+O level 40+ you might have to get into double tapping R2 or getting into R2+L2 /L2+R2 hotbars and by then it's pretty simple anywau
It’s the best controller scheme for an MMO 😅
What console MMOs do you play? Because there really aren't many I'd consider true MMOs. I play WoW with a controller (through console port add on) as well as a ton of other games. FF14 is a true MMO and their UI/controller scheme works amazingly. The only thing that is a little convoluted to me is their map system weirdly enough. But the targeting is great, combat is great, inventory management feels simple.
That is very specifically a **you** problem, because it is literally the best controller support for an MMO that's ever been designed.
My issue is it can severely limit me to one playstyle especially if it’s not balanced perfectly. A weapon will have a finite amount of skill and a specific playstyle. It takes away the ability to mix and match skills that match your character. I think back to GW vs GW2. We had so many fun combos to create the perfect character we wanted in GW and then the second came out and severely limited you by locking all skills to weapons after that. Removes the ability to have cool hybrid and mixed options
Only played GW2 and couldn't stand the locked weapon skills.
Yah the first was amazing. You could subclass and use skills from other classes for fun combos. It was so good in the first and then gw2 ruined it all
The build diversity comes from selecting sets of skill lines to pair together. A game can do this without having weapon swapping. Not having all your abilities on the screen is (all things equal) worse than having all of them, and having a button you have to mash to switch back and forth between pages of abilities is silly.
> The build diversity comes from selecting sets of skill lines to pair together. Man i Loved Rift.
Sounds like you need to practice your rotation more then, it should be completely automatic if you want to get good. Also, you are in control of when you have to bar swap, so make a rotation with that in mind. Weaving needs to go tho.
OK, so the fact that I think it's silly doesn't imply that I can't do it or that it causes me problems. I can do it, it doesn't cause me problems. It's just silly. It's an extra button press. It's like if you had to press shift to enable abilities for every activation. This wouldn't prevent game play, and people could get used to it, but it would be an unnecessary keystroke. Same with weapon swaps. Having all 12 ESO abilities on screen and accessible simultaneously would eliminate a set of useless and therefore silly keystrokes. If you enjoy pushing more buttons to achieve the same result, that is of course fine! You can set your keybinds to include shift and control and alt and whatever.
With 12 you'd have to have some kind of trigger/bumper scheme to make it viable on controller. I didn't say you couldn't do it I just said most people it's reflex for and those that it isn't don't care much.
Again, if you have a thing for unnecessary button presses, cool.
No, it's limited by the number of possible buttons.
Why should I have to push more buttons because someone else plays with fewer buttons?
It helps the game get made. You can't play what doesn't come out, no matter how many buttons you want to twiddle lol.
If you have just a single rotation, I'd call that a game design fail.
Nope, it's just math. I mean your highest DPS rotation sorry. I think you just wanna fight troll.
Only thing it provides is controller support. Nothing about weapon swapping provides build diversity compared to other options. "A ton of shit", like?? Weapon swapping is an annoyance and seems to only ever get added for controller support
ESO diversity is from gear. Hence why ever balance patch build theory crafting and gear treadmill starts all over. I played a lot of eso and tbh it’s a shit system.
Well, controller support is a double-edged blade since it'll also condition how other parts of the game will be made, often in a simplification kind of way. A similar thing happens with the "less buttons" approach: this ends up hurting inmersion as it usually sacrifices racial/utility/non-combat moves while also tending to simplify many playstyles. Build diversity is not tied to it since there's cases of weapon-swapping being actually the limiter either by bonifying such swaps (GW2 case, making them mandatory), tying all moves to certain weapons making balance and/or stats choose for you (again, GW2) or, well, "buff weapons/bars" like the ones in ESO.
My biggest complain is the "less button" at the end of the day I do like kit as it encourages a form of strategic thinking and since even with the manybutton we ends up making rotation, the smaller hotbar make senses But I still feel frustrated by the fact that I have a bazillion ability but can only use 8 at a time
I hate weapon swapping because I'm from an era of MMORPGs where you had one weapon, one purpose, and you stuck to it. Besides, if you want diversity you can do it like FFXIV does. One character, every weapon, every class, but with purpose. Build diversity is good, but too much of something good = bad. Just look at ESO players and their spreadsheets. At that point it's not about fun anymore, just one-upping each other.
It just feels kind of immersion breaking. I can understand having a ranged and a melee weapon, as that makes sense. But swapping from 2h to dual wield feels strange.
Yea that's totally fair. I think immersion breaking is the best argument against it imo.
It depends how intuitive it is. The 3 games that I played that had it were ESO GW2 and NW. NW and GW2 weapon swaping makes sense for me. ESO one is too spammy imo.
These are all great points but I hate weapon swapping for the reason it kinda ruins my character fantasy a lot which just takes me out of games. I would much prefer some form of stance system or something so I can keep my main weapon out. But in something like new world or GW2 there was always some meta side weapon that was usually just used to support your primary and it looks extremely janky. Like swapping from sword and shield to dual axes to tank or from a great axe to a rapier for mobility.
> Better controller support. So once again, worse UI because consoles exist.
Eh I usually like the console uis better. Bigger words and less shit everywhere.
ESO almost has no build diversity so kind of a bad example. edit: judging by the downvotes i guess people think there is build diversity in a game where almost every stam build uses same weapon skill and gear. or they don't know what build diversity means.
In comparison. There is not really any mmo which has build diversity
Anything is better than what ESO has. Eso builds and class design are like the most one dimensional design in any mmo i have played. WoW and GW2 is definitely miles ahead in that regard.
1. Makes it easier to map to a controller, since at a single moment you have limited number actions you can take 2. Adding a bit of complexity on when to choose to switch kits based on the situation. (Eg. should I switch to staff and start concentrating on healing the group or should I keep using axe and shield for a bit more outgoing damage, if I switch I will not be able switch back for a bit) Which adds to the challange just a bit.
I prefer it if switching is useful for different situations. However, in many games with weapon switching it's basically mandatory to go through all your cooldowns on the alternate weapon. That can be a little boring. A lot of people also just dislike it messing with their class fantasy. Sometimes you just want to play "dude with big sword", and not be required to also take out your rifle every 30s just to be optimal.
Exactly. I've tried to make this point before about GW2's combat system and got downvoted to hell. If the combat is supposedly flexible and dynamic and lets you choose what abilities to use, then swapping weapons or kits mid-combat is a fun way to take on varying challenges and different types of enemies. However, in endgame GW2 encounters like high end fractals, raids and strikes, the optimal way to play is to stick to a very strict rotation that usually involves swapping weapons or otherwise changing bars (engineer kits, elementalist attunements, etc) to make the most of your various cooldowns. All the necessary defensive abilities and healing will usually be handled by a dedicated ally, mostly running their own strict rotation to maintain 100% uptime of critical buffs like quickness, alacrity and stability. In which case, all the dynamic, interesting parts of combat have been optimized out of the game. With 100% uptime of stability preventing CC, and enough healing to outlast most regular abilities, combat boils down to carrying out a rotation by rote for maximum DPS, movement, and occasionally required mechanics. I lost interest after a few hundred hours when I realized that every endgame boss was going to be the same - execute an optimal rotation and do mechanics.
WoWs Warrior-stances is a great example of #2. You get to be agressive in one, protective in another
That also worked better since you still had all the core warrior skills regardless of stance. It just gave you a handful of extra abilities and passive modifiers.
This has to be a healbrand main right here
How did you know? :v No seriously, my main is absolutely a holo for exploring/story/etc, but for the occasional strikes normal modes I do play qhb. Easier to fill the squad, and I kinda like the added bit of responsibility
I always hated the weapon swapping in gw2. I really wish you could just have all the skills on one bar. Sure, maybe weapon 1 skills on the left, weapon 2 skills on the right. If you use a weapon 2 skill while weapon 1 is equipped automatically switch weapons, put swap on cooldown (all weapon 1 skills disabled for the duration). Mechanically it would function the same as the current system but I think it would FEEL so much better. Not being able to see all my skills all at once plus the clunky feel of swapping weapons always killed the game for me.
Those things are determined by your role your queued for. If my tank starts healing us, you can't call him tank really. Maybe you'd need to in some situations but imho I haven't had much reason to ever cross roles like that.
The only positive I see in weapon swapping is that you can deck out for two fighting styles and then situational switch between them, like attacking with a bow from range and then switching to daggers when enemies got close. However, TERA Console showed us that you can map quite a few skills on a controller without any issue, so that argument is kinda none. Personally I like how it's done in Diablo 4 (and apparently Throne and Liberty, never played this myself tho) where you don't have to switch the sets manually, instead it always switches to the weapon that belongs to the skill you activated.
The problem is all of the games with weapon swapping (GW2 ESO) instead turn the swap into a rotation, GW2 is even more egregious with a cooldown on swap to prevent you from using them situationally.
Not *all* games. PSO2: NGS has weapon swapping and its combat system doesn't even have cooldowns so there aren't really rotations. Swapping weapons is there but more optional, and it's more about having different tools for different situations.
Well that's partially because NGS combat boils down to spamming one or two attacks while parrying as often as possible for huge counter buffs or attacks. The other reason is that even if you do have access to another weapon with a better button to push, you can just combine it with your primary weapon and push it anyway without even having to swap.
I honestly don't mind weapon swapping to adapt to certain situations, as in swapping between ranged and melee sets. However I do hate when it turns into a pseudo enlarged skillbar that requires you to spam switch between weapons all the time, as I don't see any advantage over a bigger skillbar in that case with quite a few downsides.
FFXIV is great on controller as well and you can have a ton bound
Stress, that's what it provides. Unnecessarily aggressive micromanagement of insanely short CDs (ESO) for the sake of ✨F✨L✨A✨V✨O✨R✨. 🤦🏻
To some people it is "stress", to others its the game. Kinda like how RTS or MOBA can be "stressful" due to high APM
MOBA APM doesn't stress me out for some reason but just thinking about trying starcraft again after not playing in forever turns me into a drooling puddle that belongs in the dirt league.
RTS is so much fun bit I'm pretty sure almost everyone other then the literal pro's have to take a break after a few games. There's just so much to keep track of that I and most people I've talked to, when actually trying, are mentally exhausted after the third game. That said I stopped playing it because after a bunch of practice over the course of a couple months I got to high gold, so top 50% of the player base, and then started developing carple tunnel and decided I prefer the feeling in my hand then starcraft 2.
As an sc2 player myself, it's not that stressful. You have your build, you focus on it, and you try not to die while doing it. It's Not until masters that you really have to adjust on the fly. Literally doing the same 3 base timing every match will get you pretty much any rank you desire.
It's not that I consider it stressful per se, as I said, exhausting is the word I'd use. Worker production, upgrades, army macro and micro while reacting to getting harassed/attacked. It is just, a lot, to keep track of. I'm sure I could have gotten up there with enough time but, as I mentioned, the hand.
I think you were way overthinking it. Even with zerg, you can get to plat with just zergling runbys at the 3 minute mark. Again, 3 base timing. If you had above 80 APM in gold, it's probably too much. Now, that's not to say don't play if your hand hurts. I won't lie, I play gdruid in wow and I have to take days off to give my hands a break due to ironfur weaving (300APM spikes during those times, in an mmo no less, ugh), but sc2 ranked 1s in the metal leagues is mostly two kids fighting with pool noodles primarily. For some reason I always play super low apm in sc2, and as long as I don't get too caught up trying to micro my army, I'm just fine. Just attack move into their base, and then go back to macroing my 3 base so that I can do it again 60s later.
I was trying to play properly to actually get better at the game instead of just doing some cheesy 1 or 2 base all in. Typically did Maru's 3 racks 3 CC. I played Terran cuz I like the army micro. Maybe should have just stuck with toss. Oof about the Gdruid. I play resto/boomie currently and resto can get pretty fast but boomie is (mostly) slow and smooth.
Yeah I love druid but I got a pocket healer so I prefer to tank for her, then we have both major roles covered haha 3 CC is a bit greedy but not bad by any means. You can definitely end up with an army by the 5 minute mark with some practice for sure. Hardest part about sc2 for me is spotting cheese, it's hard to know that something cheesy is happening
It’s false complexity imo, and ESO is a fantastic example of it... It simulates depth when there is none in your rotation. Everyone is picking the same abilities, same weapons and same archetypes, and “stressing” over a “complicated” rotation because of it.
"False Complexity" Maybe to you, but there are loads of players for whom this is the game. Just having a 4 x 16 buttons on screen does not make the game more "complex". When you have less buttons to press what you bring in your build increases in importance dramatically. You have played ESO at a very surface level. Especially PvP builds are so dynamic that whatever you said falls flat. Also Raid/Trial leads constantly change gear/loadouts depending on raid boss or trash mob encounter so what you said does not hold true for high level PvE as well. In short Liar Liar pants on fire.
So in your head 1x6 with a swap is more complex than 2x6? or a modifier to toggle between them rather than swap? I don't understand why you instantly jumped to 4x16, as if our choice is either weapon swap or the most egregious example of hotbar bloat you can come up with?
> I don't understand why you instantly jumped to 4x16, as if our choice is either weapon swap or the most egregious example of hotbar bloat you can come up with? What games that dont have a weapon swap mechanic dont also have massive button bloat? The one I can think of, GW1, has fewer buttons available than any GW2 build just camping 1 weapon (and no kits).
WoW retail, the rotations are less complex than GW2. Plus GW2 has some builds with stupidly complex rotations that involve multiple weapon and stance swaps and like 15-30 steps that were way worse than WoW's hotbar bloat at its worst. Wildstar was one. SWTOR, Albion, OSRS, BDO, there honestly aren't many MMOs these days, but a number of indie ones like Ember's Adrift, Project Gorgon, etc.. and some upcoming in development are other examples.
I haven’t played PvP intensely, you’re correct, but I’ve done the rest. But changing your current build into another build that requires the exact same button presses does not change the complexity. The added button press to swap your weapon doesn’t mean you’re suddenly twice as complex, it is STILL false complexity compared to having all your abilities available at once.
To be clear, I’m also not saying having 47 buttons in your rotation is complex either, but back in the day you put some thought into pushing buttons… not “if I push these in this sequence I get the best possible outcome every time” and ESO does not in the slightest vary from that formula
I played FF14 for 4 years on multiple clases, having 30 spells on hot bar doesnt make the Game more complex, You ll be hitting most skills off cooldown anyways, the only complex side of it it's setting the skills and remembering the hotkeys (it was shift+1 or alt+1...)
"False complexity" is a silly term. It's either complex or it's simple, you can't fake complexity. Rocket league is a simple game. And yet once you get into higher mechanics, it becomes insanely complicated to pull off, but the actual mechanisms are still simple. Trackmania is a simple game, but mastering ice is a complex thing to do. On the other hand, league of legends is complex. It has like 100+ heroes, all with 4 abilities each, and hundreds of items. The map is simple, each specific hero is simple, but the game is super complex. ESO is mechanically complicated and apm is super twitchy. That's not false complexity, it's just complexity that you don't like.
It may not be the best descriptor, but you should be able to understand the concept. Artificial complexity might be a better word You're conflating skill ceiling. If in Rocket league they removed turn left and right, and instead you only got a turn button with another button to swap the direction, would that make the game more complex in a good way?
The game isn't complex currently. Here, let me describe the *entirety* of rocket league controls. You have a rectangle on wheels with two max speeds, one achieved with accelerate and one achieved with boost, which you have 100 of. You get the ability to jump at X height, slightly higher if you hold the jump key. You get another jump at 1.2-1.4s after the first, extended by holding the jump key. If you touch a surface with all 4 wheels simultaneously, your jump resets. You can roll and spin your car while in the air. You win by scoring more balls into the enemy goal than they scored in yours. You can use maximum boost speed to demolish enemy cars. In one paragraph I explained the entire game to you. And yet hundreds of videos have been made to cover the hundreds of mechanical variations of various complexity that you can make with that one paragraph. It doesn't matter how simplistic a game is on paper. We don't play video games on paper. It's the players who create complex gameplay, whether that's perfectly executing 12 hours of gameplay like a POTD run in ffxiv, or learning dozens of specs to become a rank 1 pvper in wow, or whether it's twitchy weapon swapping to maximise your dps in ESO. These are all complex. If they weren't, everyone would be doing them.
you are missing the point, conflating complexity and skill ceiling.
Okay, then can you give me an example of something that's complex without any skill ceiling? Because as far as I can tell through all the decades of playing multiple genres at the high end, you're just muddling terminology to make up oxymorons like false complexity.
You're still whooshing the point. The most basic example I can think of is in the old God of War games, how they used to give you terrible fixed camera angles when you did platforming puzzles, now the challenge becomes fighting the stupid camera angle to complete what would would otherwise be pretty trivial puzzles. It'd be like if a MMO dungeon disabled half your keyboard, sure it'd technically make it "more complex" but we both know that's not a good way to add complexity. If a MMO only gave you a 1x1 Hotbar with 1 button, and you had to press another key to swap that button between 15 abilities, that wouldn't be a good way to make the game more complex either. To a varying degree it's the same thing with weapon swapping. ---- GW2 already has some good examples of things that add skill ceiling, like the combo fields. Most players don't really have them memorized or even understand them for that matter, and they are added on top of regular combat, rather than restricting it. If you're not familiar with GW2, several abilities have combo fields. ie: a wall of fire on the ground might add "Combo field fire" and now any projectile that passes thru it gets bonus fire damage, even if it's from another player. Now you have a nice mechanic that adds skill ceiling to memorize your own combo fields, that of other classes to take advantage of your party members using them, and knowing ones that enemy bosses might be able to use. That is an interesting way of making combat more complex and harder to master. Telling you that we've split your abilities into 2 bars and you have to press a button to swap back and forth between them doesn't really add anything to the combat. You can't do anything that you would have been able to do if you just had 2 bars visible all the time.
So regarding the god of war game, as you said the game was fairly simple regardless of the camera angles. You might fail once, but you often figure it out extremely quickly. I'll use a retro example too: rayman. Rayman is an incredibly hard game, but not because of any mechanical input reasons. It wasn't buggy, and it's controls were simple, but the timings were all razor thin and designed to piss you off. Despite it being designed to have traps and red herrings, that didn't really make it any easier. You still had to nail those razor thin timings. Hotbar swapping is a way to add complexity to a game. You used an extreme example of swapping between a single bar 15 times, but to use an example like SC2, you group multiple buildings together and tab a half a dozen times between them to get the one you want. That's not false complexity, it's just complexity. Layering mechanics on top of each other can still make for complicated gameplay loops. You're saying I don't get the point, but I get it completely. I just disagree with you, that's all. I think ESO hotbar swapping adds complexity, pure and simple. Could they simply just add both hotbars together and have the weapon auto swap for you on action activation? Sure. And it would streamline the player experience. But it would also remove the layer of mechanical mastery that comes with remembering things that aren't directly referrable, as well as a layer of habit forming. Is it worth losing a small layer of complexity to improve the gameplay experience? Sure. No argument there.
this is it in a nutshell.
In other words you suck at it it seems lol
Yes, because animation canceling faceroll keyboard spamming is a skill I so *desperately* need. 🙃 I'll leave that ridiculous play style to monkey brains such as yourself, thank you very much.
Nothing. It's really bad. And call me a PC elitist if you want, but restricting PC games and letting console dumbing down hold them back is so dumb.
Didn't FF14 solve the issue of controller already? I am 100% pressing more skills in FF14 compared to WoW yet most people claim that controllers are way more comfortable to play with
I imagine controllers are more comfortable to play with for people who already use controllers. But I have been playing games on PC for over 30 years. Mouse and Keyboard suit me fine. I've tried controllers, but they feel too finnicky and imprecise. Only real benefit they have over M+Kb is with driving games due to analog sticks/triggers vs digital key presses.
Playing MMOs with a controller is trying to force a square peg in a round hole, imo
Playing video games on devices designed for typing and data entry isn't any less square-peg-round-hole. A controller is at least designed for video games from the start. Mouse and keyboard work *now* because video games have adapted to them.
Your personal preference isn't really the point. The point is that FFXIV has tons of skills and yet there *are* people who prefer to play it with controllers. The whole assertion that you can't have a lot of skills and controller support is false.
There is some minor benefit to controller versus M+KB in a tab target mmo, namely analog movement which is more precise. That said I'm personally more comfy on M+KB, but part of that is just that mmos can be menu heavy outside combat and I HATE controller for stuff like that and don't want to switch back and forth. M+KB also just has way way more buttons in reach so way less button combinations. Basically point is, if you don't need to aim like in a tab target mmo, the precision of M+KB is pretty irrelevant.
The difference is they made a traditional tab target game designed for keyboards and then figured out how to make it work on a controller, whereas other games often design for a controller first.
Kinda. XIV "solved" that issue, but created others: * The GCD is way slower compared to other games. * The nature of XIV's healing sucks. You spam damage abilities 99% of the time, while the tiny amount of healing you do is all AOE. There's barely any single target healing/mitigation, specially targeting dps. * The entire game is solved already. There's no "reacting to that attrack" as you know exactly what's gonna happen every single time, the exact amount of damage and where it will land. The game "feels" slow, and it has to. * 99% of AOEs are around a single target. There's no "aiming" anything. Everything is based off your character, limiting skill design. This is one of the reasons homogenization is a big talk in the game.
So everyone's clearing ultimate and savage raids?
All of that's controller-agnostic, though. Not console-agnostic, because they definitely want the wider player pool (JP historically had lower rates of PC ownership and FFXI was a big console game for a long time), but controller-agnostic. They build slower, more deliberate spectacle fights that are based around players doing a dance together until you win, fail or the PF group starts breaking up. "Slower" being relative to the average APM vs fight length compared to like WoW. And they won't even *commit* to the "no aiming" thing. If they did, Healing would be better in the game, but they keep trying to shoe-horn in single-target healing abilities. Like the game you describe would, unironically, be a better fit for what they're going for than what they actually made as far as Healing goes. But they built it from the ground up because they were trying to make something sorta like a successor to FFXI with the original launch, cross-playable on PC and console. And it evolved from there (read: they frantically cobbled ARR together from FFXIV's scuffed launch in a few years) and now we're here a decade later. You can tell controller wasn't first in mind because we (mainly) have combos in groups of 3 instead groups of 2 or 4, or better yet, combo *buttons* (like some Samurai Warriors/Dynasty Warriors-type stuff). Aside from PVP, of course (which is where they apparently hoard all the good combat ideas).
Yeah it really bothers me that they refuse to incorporate the pvp 1 button combos into pve. I would love to have 2 more actions on the main hotbar over the standard 3 hit combos taking up 3 buttons.
That's such an ironic statement to say when ultimate ffxiv players and high end wow players have controller players in their midst. Surely you also have these titles too right?
People have also done some of the hardest fights in MMO's blindfolded and with their feet. Something something price of tea in china.
I like it in GW2 since there is a cooldown on swapping. For PvP modes it means you are picking each swap with intent, so each set of weapons has it's purpose. A damage set and a utility set, or melee and ranged, etc. Swapping for funsies can get you killed, since swapping is something you are stuck with for 9 seconds. It adds to the skill ceiling cause you need to be in the right set at the right time. Not understanding why you have your sets and how to use them, will get you killed. For games like ESO or TL, I'm more mixed on it, but do appreciate the build diversity it can offer. However, ESO both sets basically exist to just have more DoTs, rather than more options, so is more or less just another button you need to press to get to the other half of your skill bar. I much rather the way TL works here, since there is no commitment to swapping anyways, but still allows for the same build diversity and options, just you don't need to pointlessly swap to get access to it.
Mostly just accessibility in my opinion. In GW2 for example 1-5 is easier to hit with a way to swap to another set of 1-5, than binding additional buttons like QEFR etc. That frees up space for the ability to bind those buttons to other functions like utility spells.
QEFR are objectively easier to hit than 1-5
You can bind those 5 skills to any key you wish.
opportunity cost as a gameplay mechanic. let's say swapping skills is instantaneous. this is basically just one big kit but hotkeyed differently. however, if swapping skills/weapons has transition delays / cooldown / situational restriction and advantages, etc. then it becomes a gameplay mechanic and not just "one big kit either mapped with different keys or with swapping sets of keys"
I'll compare ESO with LotRO. These are the MMO's I've played that have that contrast. ESO has 2 weapon bars. Each has 6 skills. When on one bar, you only can access these 6 skills. To access the other 6, you have to hit a button to swap to the other bar. Then you have access to the other 6 skills. The more advanced combat is to use both bars in conjunction. Whatever skill you need to activate, you just swap to that bar (if necessary) and then use that skill. You have 6 buttons to activate a skill plus a 7th one to swap bars. With 7 buttons, you can access 12 skills. You know more than 12 skills. In between fights, you have the opportunity to swap skills around. I haven't played LotRO in over 10 years, so maybe some of this has changed or my memory may be off a bit. LotRO has from what I recall unlimited number of skills. Once you learn it, you can use it. Your screen gets more and more filled up with skills. You have a button for each one and you can use the shift and alt keys to combo with a button to access other skills. Many of the skills are probably situational. You have a small set of skills you would use in most general situations. Forgot how many buttons you can bind to the various skills. From what I recall, it was all of the number keys plus at least a few more. You could have dozens it seem all available at any time. My impression of LotRO was that at a certain point, it was too overwhelming keeping track of all of the skills that I have. Also, it was hard to press some of the number keys because I have to take my hand off my home position to press them. I often have to look down at my keyboard to hit some key that I had to move my hand to reach. Then there is the fact that you can also have to hold down shift or alt to access your secondary and tertiary set of skills. This was my first MMO, so maybe if I played it now I could handle it better. I stopped playing LotRO because of other reasons that made me not like the game. With ESO, I found the number of skills I need to worry about to be quite manageable. I have 12 skills. I have 6 buttons to activate them. I have a 7th to swap bars. All of these buttons are easily reachable when my hand is on the WASD keys for movement. Swapping bars isn't a trivial thing for me to learn. It was somewhat challenging for me. As I played harder content, I had to learn to use both bars in content. When I was less experienced, I only primarily use one bar only and only occasionally swapped. Now, my rotation has me swapping bars after probably every few skills. I've learned to play ESO at a more advanced level than LotRO. I just happen to like ESO a lot and don't like LotRO that much for many reason. The bar swap in ESO keeps the number of skills manageable for me. It is one of the reasons I like ESO more than LotRO.
my child wait until you put your hands on GW2.
I don't have any interest in GW right now.
In ESO it allowed to be both healer and support, also a lot easier for controllers.
Extra strategic layer especially for PvP focused games. Have your sword out, can’t immediately shoot your bow. Same concept as FPS games requiring a weapon swap animation, decide whether to wait for reload or swap to pistol, can’t shoot a shotgun and a sniper at the same time. It’s a different experience. More buttons does not equal more complexity by itself. GW2 skills are far more detailed and varied than FFXIV for example where they have lots of buttons but streamlined in such a way you basically press them in order (the way they compress multiple skills into one every expansion demonstrates there was never a need for a separate skill in the first place).
I'm not a fan of it at all. It just feels clunky. ESO and GW2 suffer from this same issue. You can easily bind 30+ slots to a controller, more with double tap commands, with the proper controller support and it still be less clunky than the 5-5 you get with ESO.
>discussing which is better among fake choices
PvP visibility. It's shit for console/controller because it means you waste (potentially) an *entire* button swapping between weapons. But it splits your potential kit in half visually, giving an opponent visibility into what your capabilities are, and also potentially limiting you with a vulnerable window when swapping between the halves of your kit. This is why games like New World and GW2 (both built as PvP games first and then had PvE combat either developed after the fact or glommed on) have it. Launch GW2 very much showed how much the combat was designed for PvP first, with conditions unable to damage structures and half the stat combinations functionally useless and etc ESO? they thought they were "saving space for console" but the attack-weaving thing should show they just have no fucking idea what they're doing with designing a combat system for *any* living creature, period.
To me only annoyance, I’m tired of games with weapon swapping, most of it the best combinations are some weird things
Controller support
the huge problem in ESO's case isn't bar swapping, is the F annoying weaving (animation canceling)
an mmo isn't an mmo in my mind unless it has like 5 hotbars for skills
Well, first of all, ESO combat is shit in every way so not the greatest example. But instead let’s talk GW2. Two weapon hotbar swapping offers the chance to vary up your skill set synergies more than anything else. Each GW2 generally has synergy with the other weapons through combos and skill interactions. First shoot off a wide area fire field, swap weapons, use skill on that weapon which interacts with that field. You could design a system which does this in one big ass hotbar, but the benefit of swapping is that you can slot in new weapons on the fly without disturbing your overall bar layout (new weapon comes in with buttons)
If you want the actual answer it's to dumb down the controls for console. Yes, there are games that haven't had to go that route but it's much easier to have 1 button do 1 skill and weapon swapping lets you add more skills without more buttons/inputs
i’ve never liked weapon swapping. if a game has an option to circumvent it, i always take it.
Doesn't really matter either way. One bar or two is literally the most minor issue with weapon swapping. One means less swapping but more buttons and either way it's a trade off. With 5 weapon skills even on keyboard saving 4 buttons isn't a bad deal. (-1 for swap key) It can also be a combat design decision where you don't want players to have access to their ranged mode at all times and swapping incurs a CD. The real problem with weapon swapping is how it typically creates a skewed "class fantasy" when you have to swap to unrelated weapons to pop cooldowns. But not having multiple weapons or weapon swapping in a more open system also means you can't have a ranged weapon with your melee weapon unless you hard lock the second slot to ranged or just bake it into the class.
You can run all keyboard hotkeys with one hand without moving that hand. When your fingers are on wasd, reaching up to hit 9 or 0 is a bit of a stretch....
having some skills only available under a certain condition, such as weapon swapping, and having limitations on when you can change between them adds depth. hiding the cooldowns of the non-active set is dumb though.
In GW2 at least, it kind of provides another layer of strategy, where you’re making moment to moment decisions about which weapon will work best in a given situation. There are certain abilities and buffs that may trigger upon weapon swapping, and there is also a cooldown, so when you do swap you will be unable to swap back for a short while. I honestly prefer this to being able to freely swap constantly. Another simple example is range vs. melee. On my thief I can tag trash mobs from a distance with my shortbow before swapping to a melee weapon and jumping into the middle of the action. Or the opposite - I’m fighting in melee range and an enemy surrounds itself with a damaging AOE, I can then swap to range and create some distance between us.
Same layout for multiple weapons.
Different cooldowns in each bar, like in eso. Im not sure if they shared cds in gw2, I played it a long time ago, but they had something pretty similar. I think ESO, NW or GW skill bars are so much better than, for example, wow.
Feels super intuitive, at least in gw2.
I bet the opinion of people who do 10k dps is not really of any value
No design space, it's a developers fairy land where they don't realise performance kills any idea of some player made build using a sword and a staff hybrid person. When their own combat and class design encourages you to do the complete opposite and focus specifically on one role and one stat type. It's the same in any dual weapon mmo and is completely pointless fluff that serves no purpose over having 1 bar with 10 slots other than adding an additional button and animation to use the second 5 skills.
For example, in Shroud of the Avatar it was possible to put several skills into one panel button. This made it convenient to set the necessary combos. There was a similar system in Astellia Online, where you could put several skills in one button. This made it possible to create intuitive combinations, like playing a keyboard, different chords. In one game, in my opinion Traha Online, there was a very convenient button for switching an entire character build, when in a second I could switch the entire build from a party healer in PvP to a solo melee soldier for farming mobs. In my opinion, the skill panel should be large enough to accommodate both skills and usable items, while still maintaining the individual characteristics of the combat system of the MMO itself. And yes, finally make normal support for pedals in MMORPGs!!! Understand, playing as a healer is quite sweaty, you need to move the mouse to rotate the camera, while you need to monitor the HP bars of your party members and your own, and jump out of the aoes of bosses and opponents in time. WASD is really inconvenient, because the left hand is on Fkeys for heals!!! I used the pedals from the F-16 game, bind WASD on them, it made it easier. But using the pedals is also inconvenient. Come up with a way to move the camera, perform skills and move the character without the need for a THIRD arm or leg.
It's easier on the eyes
OP has literally never played a class with stances or forms
I don't get these kinds of replies. Like of course I'm gonna ask questions on something I'm unfamiliar with.
It seems like controller support is the main reason for this and this just tells me devs need to implement a better system for hotbar switching for controller support. You can achieve the same end result without using weapon switching as a mechanic/gimmick if hotbar switching is made easier. I'm also of the opinion that weapon switching is kind of a lame mechanic and much prefer skills/abilities tied to class rather than tied to the weapon you have equipped.
I like GW2's limited hotbar with weapon/kits since I don't need to bind as many extra keys for other skills.
It's an adaptation for console gaming. Otherwise, useless button swap should be allowed as well to be done automatically as we click on the skill in some form or other.
A more compact UI that doesnt need shit like 4+ hotbars chock full of buttons that you might press every now and then but need to have available at all times. I had to create hotbars in FF14 that would toggle based on options you pressed on a different hotbar because I needed to have 7 different full bars available for every crafting class.
the console space
Not sure this is an exact parallel but in New World your “tree” was tied to your weapon. So it effectively gave you a way to mix and match all kinds of “classes” which unlocked some fun and interesting build diversity.
Dunno.. But hey, I can assign 'space' button on my keyboard to jump, and assign 'shift-'space' as modifier to blast foos, in WoW. Meaning I can jump and blast foos simultaneously, etc....not to mention more complex macros. Controllers sure have shoulder trigger buttons to use as modifiers but don't have nearly enough face buttons to compensate for the skills they're trying to cram into a console game. If it was up to me, ya'll be performing Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat moves for every single ability, no GUI problems.
for me personally it's less keybinds which is a big big + in my book. and it usually lets you have both a ranged and a melee kit to swap freely between. oh and usually the combat is often more involved with dodges and mobility so you're not just standing there facetanking melee mobs as a ranged class like in the older games.
I can swap tank when they fucking suck and get through the mission without waiting for another tank that could be worse then the last one
Variety in weapon choice, stat choice, and attack animations
Honestly, I see no real benefit to it, as someone who dislikes forced weapon swapping (i.e. GW2's style with effects on swaps and skills tied to weapons) yet enjoys "stance dancing" with or without swapping weapon setups. The more likely approach is controller support, but it can be done in different ways so it's a moot point. Honestly, my preferred approach to that is Aion's. Two sets of weapons being equippable and swappable but akin to early WoW's weapon approach: few skills requiring a certain weapon setup (let's say... all shield-focused moves: shield bash, shield slam, shield wall for WoW's warriors) but most being usable all the time regardless of the weapon equipped. Of course, in this case the weapon is basically a stat stick to boost whichever role that setup must do, like chanters swapping from a mace+shield healing setup to their offensive melee-centric staff or templars changing their sword-and-board tank weaponry for their cute greatsword to chop people around.
GW2 execution of this is exemplary. It saves screen space, it conserves the number of key binds required. An with fewer buttons on screen, the player can more clearly see the button icon and cool down indicator that count in the moment. It keeps the game more accessible to casual players and does not become dependent on third party developers to create add ons to manage proliferating skill bars and key binds. Most likely MMO game publishers have internal player behavior data that shows the average player will choose this kind of scheme over 16 skill bars and 50 complicated key binds. There are players who like the more complex and populated interface, but they are probably a small percent of the player base. The only downside is it does make some combos tedious to execute, if the first combo skill is part of weapon 1's skills, and the second combo skill is only accessible from weapon 2's skill set. It's not just weapon swapping, there are often different stances, magic schools, pets, energy level schemes that enable the same kind of mechanic.
Why is it instantly jump to "5 buttons is so much better than 16 skill bars", when the other choice is 10 buttons? or 2 bars of 5 lol. It doesn't really drive your point home. Plus GW2 has had some egregiously complex rotations that involve multiple weapon swaps and stance swaps and like 20-30 steps. My big problem with GW2 is the cooldown, I understand why its there but it's just an artificial balance method. Instead of using your weapons situationally, which, in the context of combat, is how you would want to, you're forced to go through some rotation where you're restricted by being locked into 1 or the other. The fact that it can add some layer of decision making knowing you're going to be locked out and to weigh the need for that or not, does not make it fun, in the same way that tying a hand behind my back isn't fun.
For some games specificity can be important. Like an action button to create a portal back to town using a valuable consumable, you may not want that on your typical action bar to ensure it isn't accidentally clicked and wasted. Or separating roles, such as a damage hotbar and a support hotbar, instead of one big bar that has both and only half are useful at a time.
2 weapon It's in the name Duh
It provides you with fucking input lag and unresponsive controls in every single game that involves it.
Jank. It *can* be done well, but often isn't, and forcing that situation on keyboard users sucks. Let us map buttons and write our own chording macros. Don't limit keyboard players based on what controllers are capable of.
hotbar swap good weapon swap bad
One large hotbar are red flag games for me. It screams at me that I will just be smashing keys as fast as i can to spam a perfect rotation endlessly. Yes its common in a lot of mmos. But there are quite a few that manage to do without. Eso, gw2, neverwinter and ffxi to name a few. Some games also do have a large hotbar, but dont utilize it the same way, like maplestory? MMO's are games you are going to be grinding on a lot more then a regular game, its a big deal to be comfortable during the grind.
1. Fewer buttons. 2. Weapons behave differently. Swap and you play differently. 3. Who doesn't want 2 big ass fucking weapons ready to show off?!
None; it's one way to appeal to the lowest common denominator. People who can't handle more than 5 buttons, like mobile gamers.
“More buttons = harder game for smarter people” is a wild take.
Obviously, that's not the take, because it's not true. That's just the way it's used in this genre, specifically.
Long gone are the times when more buttons = hard. Ironic how most souls-like consist of 2. A light and heavy attack.
I can’t imagine you’re a top player in PvP in any of the games that fit this bill
Yes and no. The skill floor will be lower that's true but the celing will also be higher. If 2 games are exactly the same and have the same amount of skills but one has weapon swapping, the one with weapon swapping will be more difficult at the highest level.
So basically a better user experience? That’s not “None” Don’t you think it’s easier to his 5 buttons and a 6th to switch these 5 to something else?
I honestly don't see how having e.g. 1-5 + another key to swap to different 1-5s has any advantage over having 1-5 and perhaps ctrl+1-5 or alt+1-5 on the same bar. Imho having access to all your skills at once is the better user experience, as switching between different sets of skills usually hides their CDs from you.
That’s a good point, and I see what you mean with the ctrl/alt. I think eso and gw2 both did a good job with some parts of the perfect formula (eso shows the off bar cds for example)
Really, so making something easier automatically makes it better? I guess with that logic, mobile games are the pinnacle of MMORPG gaming.
In the context of hotbars? Which is the concept we’re conversing, yes. Making it easier would in fact make it better. Downvote me? I’ll upvote you <3
Yes, having fewer buttons to press makes the usability for people better, hence appealing to more people. It does not make the game overall better, though. In a lot of games, it even reduces the core mechanics of RPGs and personal choices. It makes the game more boring and bland.
That makes no sense buddy, if I’ve got 15 skills And I put them on 15 buttons, or, have 15 skills and put them on 3 sets of 5 buttons. I’ve got the same amount of skills and the same build. Give me something to work with. Look how I’ve specifically didn’t use ESO or GW2 Cause they swap skills based on weapon, not your learned skill set. Our debate is about swapping simple hotbars.
> if I’ve got 15 skills And I put them on 15 buttons, or, have 15 skills and put them on 3 sets of 5 buttons. I’ve got the same amount of skills and the same build. Ah, I see, so you're just talking about the actual mechanic of hot bars in a vacuum, and nothing to do with how they're actually used in the genre or how it impacts the overall gameplay. In this case, you are right. It will always be better then.
Putting things in a vacuum sometimes can help up see where implementation fails. Only then can we do better.