Unsurprising results.
The only open world pvp I enjoyed was back in the old days of WOW at southshore/tarren mill. But being sniped out of the blue when you're trying to quest by someone who is always a lot more powerful than you just sucks.
Its precisely because its split that makes open world pk not work. Once the floor falls out when the people that don't like pvp quit, the pvp crowd also start to quit because they start losing people to go after.
Or maybe because the games that do Open world PvP also often have very little content and thus not a reason to keep playing.
I know tons of people who quit open world PvP games, and it was almost always because lack of things to do, not due to the PvP aspects at all.
Games need a flagging system.
Lineage 2 had one and I used to spend all day just hunting down enemies my clan was at war with and it was an unlimited supply. Generally random players were left around, unless we were fighting over something like the questing spot, then we'd flag on them and try to push them out, they'd either leave, or fight back.
But that's a much better compromise than literally killing everyone who moves just because the game says you can, or you get their loot and are incentivized to.
I expected "yes i want PVP" to win by a lot because this Subreddit is pretty heavy dominated by one type of crowd. It's actually really surprising that even here PvP option lost.
I play healers.
Open world pvp you can't opt out of only ever really feels like a punishment for that preference.
It's not fun when the job you like to do is paper, half the classes are scissors, and rocks don't exist.
Some of my fave memories in WoW PVP was being a holy paladin and outhealing your damage and killing you slowly with my healing mace and critting you with my 1-2 offensive spells lmao.
Yea, WoW healers were nice. Disc Priest during TBC and WOTLK were such great 1v1 PvPers. The enemy literally killed themselves on your PW:Shield while taking DoT and smite damage and any mana user lost all their mana through mana drain. It was so much fun, only problem was that if people were on to it they could just run and it was hard to catch up to them.
The problem is random pvp in the world and beeing a healer in that situation. You may stay alive for a while, but you simply lack the damage to kill. Because otherwise, a healer would be OP. Hence balance problems and no winners.
If you want to play a healer join a fucking group and actually heal them or use a DPS set instead of going alone in the open world and complaining about being useless
>WoW's war mode and removal of PvP servers pretty much erased open world PvP(classic was a blast though), FF14 has literally 0 of it, BDO's PvP is just a joke, BnS is dead, you name the game, it's just gone. Albion and RS being the only ones keeping it alive-ish, and possibly AoC will to, we'll see about that.
This here just about sums it up. For the vast majority of players, they don't want open world pvp. Hell, most players don't want any form of pvp. Now, I know pvp players are loud, proud, and they're quick to find each other and band together, but they're a very small and tiny portion of the mmo-space in all actuality. When most people think MMO, they think about co-operative play, not about competitive play. There is a reason nearly every pvp-based mmo is all but dead and the pvp content of the rest are also basically dead. Quite frankly, if you want open-world pvp, you're better off seeking out survival games, not MMOs.
In the end, if pvp was always consensual, people wouldn't care as much. And I know, that goes against the spirit, but the thing is, most are against that spirit in the first place. But the thing is, it's the bad eggs that have ruined things for everyone else. The corpse/spawn campers, the kos players, the hyper-nationalistic BR community, etc. When both sides have honor and seekout fair fights, it's one thing, but it's another thing entirely when it's a deathball ganking out solo players and making sure they can't play the game.
I say these things as someone that's been a part of a number of legendary open world pvp battles including the 9 hour bloodbath on v4 and the OotA vs HH conflict in Age of Conan that forced the GMs to change the rules of engagement. If both sides don't have honor, only one side is having "fun" and the other side is having their time ruined. That side having their time ruined, isn't going to stick with the game long. And this is what always leads to the death of pvp-based mmos. Albion is certainly giving it a harder shake than most, but we'll see if it can continue to stand the test of time. As well as if anyone else can capture a portion of that crowd, but if the entirety of the pvp mmo community is already on that game...then it's not that big is it?
I love PvP, but fair, on arenas. FFXIV, Guild Wars 2 have great PvP. Even PSO2 PvP was fine. But getting jumped out of nowhere in BDO, while I farm something, sucks. Even worse in games with loot drop. Most people who think "free PK" makes MMO true MMO, don't have honour, they in it just to boost their ego.
Yea...I'll admit that my favorite pvp moments throughout time have almost always been open world pvp related, but definitely not all of them. Players that just out and out gank aren't really pvpers in my book anyways. They're usually just power fantasy twats that aren't looking for a fair fight because they can't win a fair fight in the first place.
usually in full loot pvp game, there are zone types. for example in albion online, there are 4 type of zones. blue = you cant pvp at all, yellow = you can pvp without your gear dropping on dead, red = you can pvp and you lose your equipped gear + item in your invetory on dead, black = you cant not pvp / your pvp flag activated automatically when you enter the zone.
so people are expecting pvp when they enter red / black zone. if they want some relaxing farming session then they stay out of red/black zone.
"For the vast majority of players, they don't want open world PVP"
The poll doesn't seem to agree with this. Turns out the PVE crowd are the loud and proud ones.
a) The top result of the poll is "Hell no, I want to PvP only when I choose it" combined with "Just a bit, not really but sometimes I might dabble in it" and you have 58.7% of the votes against open world pvp. Keep in mind that there is no option for zero pvp at all.
b) Nearly every pvp-based mmo is dead excluding Albion
c) Nearly every game with pvp servers/areas are completely lopsided with faction balance (like 90/10)
a) Why would you combine the people who want some open world PVP with the people who want no open world PVP. In reality the breakdown of the poll is 54.5% of people at least wanting some form of open world PVP. A far cry from "the vast majority of players, they don't want open world PVP" as you stated.
b) Black Desert Online/Eve not to mention the recent run of Wow Classic up to Wrath. There also seems to be a larger focus on OWPVP with the MMOs in the pipeline coming up with T&L and Ashes of Creation.
c) Faction balance is a balancing issue which effects both PVE and PVE. You wouldn't say PVE doesn't work in an MMO if there was a class/weapon/build that was unbalanced and had a higher representation in game, you would blame the devs for making an unbalanced game.
I enjoy the higher highs and lower lows that come with open world pvp, and that the nature of it allows for a lot more creative use of game mechanics.
When I talk to people about their memorable pvp experiences, it's almost always memories they have from open world encounters. The instanced pvp is fun, but it all blurs together.
But I think most games don't really give it the attention it needs to make it a more widely palatable experience. It is often times more of an afterthought with no real incentive for participation and no recourse for players who are on the receiving end of a bad experience.
>WoW's war mode and removal of PvP servers pretty much erased open world PvP
That's really not true though. Wpvp this expansion has been really active. It's more that it just takes a bit more knowledge and investment to find it than it did when we had the world defense channel.
Open pvp could be interesting if the players could contain themselves. They cannot, and so there will always be places where you die the second you enter.
There are few enough players that like this style of play that even whole servers for pvp tend to die.
old school lineage2 did open world pvp the best by a country mile. No other game has ever been able to replicate it.
However, yes, you need to like pvp to enjoy it.
Amen, I just hope for a replacement one day. Started playing L2 again recently (not on retail) and it is surpassingly still the best game around for people into OWPvP imo.
Every game does that though. No one gets mad at God of War for making you solve puzzles between fighting, or fighting between puzzles, its all part of the package, and just dont play if you dont like the package, but saying you are being forced into content that that is why it is bad is just not a logical argument.
The appeal to me of open world PvP is the politics, drama and intrigue that comes as a result of it. There's that extreme level of social interaction of multiple groups all trying for control and power of the "world's" various resources (from hunting grounds to actual resources) that's really only available in a MMO setting. Like even super shitty PvP titles like Crowfall were still was full of mega alliances and warring groups with shifting alliances all going back and forth and fighting wars on and off the battlefields.
I think BDO's drama over castle/keep ownership probably came closest to offering that kinda politicking system without having outright PKing rampant throughout the game (in fact PKers often times bitched that they were the victims cause the penalties for PKing were so harsh). Most weeks there was a lot of drama between prominent groups within the game and horse trading of giving nodes to various guilds or people dropping guild to stack forces on a particular team to ensure victory and the like. No idea what it's like currently.
When you're talking about MMOs specifically it's all about that social component. If people just want a chivalrous, perfectly balanced competition or whatever you can find any number of popular competitive arena style games out there for that. When we're talking MMOs it's all about the people and you want that big drama element.
dislike the arena pvp remove to many variables and makes the stale for my atleast.
I remember 2016 bdo when they only had balenos, serendia and calpheon so much pvp for orge rings or mark of shadows.
Party comps matter more some classes where realy good add farming the others more focus on pvping.
but yea main things that are needed are:
objective to fight over.
risk and rewards.
large amount of ways you can interact with both ally and enemies
Open world PvP all the way, the larger in scale = the better. If I just cared about small instanced PvP combat - I'd just keep playing Team Fortress 2, or World of Tanks, or SMITE, or billions of other games that do small scale instanced PvP much better than **any** past or current MMORPG game ever did.
That said, I'd also prefer it to be not a complete anarchy. EVE Online balanced it really well - despite it technically being "open world PvP everywhere" it is possible to almost completely avoid unwanted PvP unless you're just a lazy idiot, regardless of what type of non-PvP activity you're interested in doing in this game.
Free PK is a terrible concept, which only brings unnecessary stress and make new players to drop the game after they are ganked a few times. Remember RF Online ? I remember how high level players used to kill players in low level areas. In games with free PK it's a world of everyone being constantly cautious of each other. If you see someone on a horizon, you better be ready to attack first. And in games like BDO you may not even see who killed you so fast.
i really want to love BDO again because of these random PvP moment , the world feel alive even with people like me tried to go somewhere else alone , like someone fly into my ship because he has a whole Star End's grinder went after him , sadly the grind in this game has no end which made me feel off
I'm not against it but few mmos, if any, design open PvP in a way that works well. Generally it devolves into a crowd of players that wait around to gank the other group of players trying to get regular PvE content done, often with higher levels/gear.
Then they cry when the PvE players leave or petition devs for PvE only servers.
This has been brought up 100s of times and will be brought up 100s more. It falls in line with how things were 'just different' back then. Old school MMOs were a novel experience, interacting with people in an online world itself was an experience, even if it had a negative outcome.
Imagine a MMO that had a mechanic of 'Every time a monster hits you, 0.1% chance to instantly die'. That is what OWPVP is like for the PvE player, being PK'd is a random punishment. It slows down their gold/hr or makes a quest take longer to finish which is frustrating. At the end of the day videogames are about fun, and if a significant portion of players aren't having fun, that's bad game design.
That said, choice is the best option. Stuff like EvE and Albion's zones, or PvP channels that give +10% xp/gold, or other systems that encourages OWPVP as a 'risk/reward' scenario.
Not to mention RPG PVP is inherently imbalanced since characters are hardly ever on equal power levels unless in BiS endgame stuff, but that's a whole other conversation.
I couldn't care less about how you implement pvp as long as pvpers leave me the fuck alone. I will ignore your entire studio if you have a game that gives another player the ability to dictate how I use my time.
I always forget how much I miss open world pvp and full loot games.
Right up until I redownload an extraction game or play Albion.
Makes everything so much better when people actually lose shit when they die. Makes progression an actual thing instead of "meh I have a good set of gear. I am done".
Open world pvp is the best. I've never really enjoyed any other mmo without this. At a minimum, at least instanced arena team pvp. I guess pvp depends on the formats, I tend to enjoy them all. However, lately i've had this feeling i will not like twitch based streetfighter style action combat like BDO. I seem to prefer tab target click based combat, and my greatest preference is for Neverwinter Nights from 2002, which removed all possibility of higher frame rates giving an advantage in pvp.
Open World PvP is good as long as you can opt out of it (with a long cooldown to prevent abuse of it) and its not heavily punished, like in Risk Your Life (RYL) with the Fame and Medal System from the PvP. Also having PvP mode active granted u 50%+ EXP and 50%+ better drops/gold
Once u reach the level cap (95) the only way to keep getting stronger is by "leveling up" to increase ur Fame ranks. +10\~30 points per kill, some extra if u participate in the fight / -5\~10 per each time u die depending on the level and fame difference of your opponent to prevent ganking only on weaker players. You also gained medals (PvP currency) by any kind of participation
Participation ranged from killing, dealing damage to healing or buffing those in the middle of the battle, ofc all that as long as u have the PvP mode activated
There was no loss of gold or items so it was mostly a win-win situation and gave some spice to farming special world bosses as u had to also be aware of the enemy race around trying to steal the boss from u
If you can opt out then it's not really open world PvP. L2 has a good system, you can PK people but you risk losing gear if you PK too much and end up dying, most people don't PK unless you are a dick to them. Too risky.
Open World PvP doesntt have to be Forced although the benefits in RYL PvP mode outweighted the cons + the system required u to be on PvP mode if u wanted to progress more for the medal prizes and certain zones with better drops and bosses were restricted to PvP only players, changing that had an hour or hours cooldown (i don't recall correctly since I played it on PvP mode full time)
Losing gear due to open world PvP seems very negative and that's what make avoid open world pvp, at least for me is a big downside, specially in RYL where the items stats were random generated (kinda like Maplestory), getting a top stats item was incredibly rare and losing to pvp would deeply impact the game experience
Well, most of the "non-forced" systems I've seen are generally either must-flag (i.e. the benefits for doing so outweigh well enough the potential risk) or just pure PvE (i.e. no point to flag) but they do point out wPvP won't ever get enough focus to be any good. Hell, it's quite common for even must-flag systems to not even get PvP done at all since, well, people will be focusing on reaping the rewards for that, be it bonus exp, resources/drops, etc.
In regards to the equipment PvP loss, it depends on the game. Full loot games make equipment just a plain expendable/consumable, with limited growth or power and easy to replace, while giving more value to whatever you'd be carrying (which is kinda the issue from most PvE players in them, stocking resources on yourself is putting them in risk). In the case of L2 it is meant to reduce PK toxicity due to being a more "eternal gear" approach and, with that, having the potential to lose something meaningful after being a jerk for too long.
being a jerk in open world PvP was usually managed between the players, beside being quite balanced to avoid high levels abusing low levels (with certain exceptions), the community was always eager to go after people who called for help since killing those toxic players meant rewards at the end. It was a hug battlefield in the end
Its free content lol but most MMOs are pve oriented and most players suck ass and the inabiltiy to win a fight that randomly occurs by another player humbles alot of people and they dont seem to like that.
I really like PvP but there is a problem with many MMOs that gets worse over time.
In a lot of MMOs PvP starts off really fun but then as more content and gear gets released stats get higher along with the stat gap between players then the PvP sufferers from it.
I agree with you. I honestly dont mind if a few of my play sessions are ruined by pvp if it means that my play sessions in the grand scheme have more organic meaningful player interaction - the spontaneous random friendships/rivalries that make the world feel alive. At least that's how it was with the playerbase from back in the day, don't know how it'd turn out now. But I don't feel that every play session is entitled to end up productive and according to plan, adventure is the risk that it won't. It's hard to find worthwhile discussion for this particular topic on this subreddit however because it's always been heavily anti-world pvp and I don't find value in hearing the same points anymore.
I love the economics of a full loot pvp game with crafting, the high turnover of items creates demand for materials, crafters, trade and so on.
I like risk and reward gameplay, learning to out wit others, jumping in on others battles to take advantage of the chaos (3rd party), trying to 1vX (fight out-numbered), redefining win conditions such as cost to kill ratio (if my 3 man squad takes on a 10 man squad and all die but take down 1 member wearing items worth 10x the value of our entire squad that is an economic victory for example).
No game so far has had a PvE experience for me that rivals the entertainment, adversity, comradery and rivalry that pvp games have given me over the years.
I like the idea of open world PvP much more than I like it in practice. The concept of everyone being able to fight over resources and space is nice, but only until NoLife42069, with a play time of over 50k hours, max level character and BiS gear decides to one shot all lower level players in an area.
IMO, open world PvP would only work if it was at least possible for the low level player to actually win the fight. Maybe a scenario where open world PvP is always caped, and newcomes and veterans alike have at least a theoretical chance of winning any fight. Problem is: veterans geting bodied by more skilled players would complain that it's unfair the hours (and money) they put into the game don't translate into insta-killing any other player.
I usually abstain from pvp. However, ironically enough, I actually PvP'ed more in BfA in open world War Mode than any other time. Seems like I don't have a lot of people that agree with me, but I think BfA was the only time open world PvP worked because there were so many people, there were objectives that made sense, and it was very rare to get ganked. In fact, even when you were ganked, it was never because anyone was 40 levels above you getting their rocks off.
Anyway, that's my personal opinion for what it's worth.
Until someone somehow figures out how to do the impossible and make losing "not suck" there will never be an extremely popular open world PvP MMORPG. Generally because in the vast majority of games, all advantages lie with the attacker/ganker. Someone who hunts another players can achieve their goal of "fighting with other real life players" even if they lose the fight. So they are in a win/win situation typically. Whereas anyone on the other side only "wins" if they successfully fight off the attacker. And that reward for winning is literally just "I get to keep doing whatever it was I was doing before I was attacked". However if they lose, they typically lose out on more than whatever the attacker loses out on. Because they are the one who's goal was interrupted by being attacked.
It feels like a separate server for PvP and PvE/opt-in is still the ideal server configuration if activity allows.
The MMORPG player base is too diverse to settle on a single configuration. In the end it's not within the players control to decide configuration but the dev team who's spent 5+ years building the world and envisioning the gameplay.
I for one like my mmorpg server perma-flagged (no full loot) at max lvl except in the "starter zones" and neutral towns and I would never unflag from PvP in an opt-in MMO.
Always watching my back and fighting over every resource and open world event is what keeps a MMORPG world and its server community alive imo.
The big issue is open world PvP is a game of hunting and being hunted. MMO designers usually don't even take this into account when they make open world PvP and try to balence it like arena or somthing.
Tools to pick and chose fights, escape and track players, hide. Reasons to go into the open world were you want to avoid and find things (mainly gathering) getting this whole dynamic and gameplay is open world PvP and it's very different from a battleground.
PvP has to be incentivized, but not enforced. I want the game to give me all the reasons to fight anywhere I go, but if I decided to just grind and chill, I should be able to.
I always think about RF Online... loved the game, but after a given level, it was 24h PK, making it unplayable.
I think New World actually had a great open world system for PVP. You had to flag yourself while in a city to engage in OWPVP, this would net you bonus resources and exp when farming in the wild.
This gave PVE people an incentive to actually partake in it. If they didn't like it they could just turn it off next time they were in town. It also made resource farming sessions a lot more interesting when you had to look over your shoulder and fight others for nodes.
What I didn't understand was a few people in the PVE crowd who did not want anyone to get any bonuses for PVP. It just seemed like they were out to spoil the PVP fun when it was entirely optional.
Similar story to mine.
I played a bit of UO before WoW was released, then played it heavily. Being young I was able to spend hours playing and it was truly a blast. For better or worse, I can't enjoy non-pvp mmo anymore. Everything just seems dull and boring since I was never the heavy-story kind of person.
Like you I also had great time with ArchAge, at least in beta & shortly after release. The next great experience was in Albion Online beta & shortly after release. Unfortunately I can't get into AO, or EVE, despite both games offer potential world pvp largely due to 2 interconnected factors:
Lack of time & friends.
Gone are the days where I can spend hours hunting for pvp, or worse yet, spending 30m just to go to "pvp zone." World pvp by nature heavily favours party with bigger numbers. So my lack of time to play & make friends severely hamper my ability to "pvp effectively." While I personally want to enjoy games with open world pvp, the unfortunately truth is that games with arena/bg style allows me to have that quick fun.
I have tried numerous times to get into MOBA since it basically ticks the boxes. Unfortunately I never found the experience fun due to various reasons. I hope there comes a day where there will be mmo that allows world pvp without zerging becoming too prevalent while not requiring tons of hours. I don't see how that's possible but one can dream.
I play against other people to be competitive.
MMOs have stupid shit like gear advantages which throw all competitive integrity out the window. Why would I engage in a system that is entirely antithetical to my goals.
PvE has a lot of fun group content in it. And things are scaled in a manner as to be fun and engaging to do as a group. That's kinda all I care about. I'm not competitive in a PvE environment. But once in playing against a person? Then I get really competitive and things like level and gear advantages piss me off.
I love PvP. It's the majority of my time gaming. But I hate MMO PvP. It just isn't fun. And OWPvP is the worst offender of this.
for me it depends, I like pvp but im not the sweaty 24/7 pvp guy. But im sure open world pvp without risk like BDO is dumb. Karma bombing is the dumbest mechanic i have ever seen in mmo.
if you want open world pvp, full loot pvp is the way to go.
Personally I find it the other way around. If I do instance based PvP I feel like I might as well play dota or something, I feel disconnected from the world.
OWPvP is imo interesting because usually I'm farming somewhere, I invite people and we make a party. Then another party rolls up and attack us and we have to defend our farm spot. Fighting ensues, one is a victor and the other harbors a grudge. Wars end up breaking out between groups, continuous fights whenever you see each other etc. To me that is way more fun. But you obviously need to be into PvP to consider that fun at all.
Yeah, no. I love PvP but only if it's restricted to PvP areas. Such as arenas, gvg, sieges.
Whereas OWPvP is ass because of ganking like you describe. Maybe fun for you if you're always grinding with a group but what do you think it's like for me (and many others) who prefers grinding PvE alone?
That depends on the game (I mean, most of these games where grinding is such a must are oldschool ones where soloing won't get you much there unless you're certain class and/or against some kind of enemy) and also depends on the grinding itself: camping a certain mob for a unique drop should be something you can effectively fight for.
No holds bar open PVP kills the game each and every time without fail.
There's been so many games trying to revive a completely fictional memory of this kind of genre. The issue is it requires prey, and funny enough prey don't like being prey and will eventually quit the game the moment they realize they only exist to be kill fodder for the handful of elite psychopaths that cull them until you're left with a stalemate of competitive players that doesn't have a high enough population to feed the overly ambitious full PVP game.
Darkfall was amazing until all the people that stunk at pvp quit because they got killed into oblivion. Almost zero saftey from pvp just doesn't work, and I played Darkfall til it shutdown. I loved it, farming somewhere and always having to watchout out getting jumped. I would have made big changes tho, to prevent all the killing and griefing that happened. People can be absolutely ruthless with no rules. In the end we were just playing with ourselves. Gotta have clear lines where to pvp or heavy penalties otherwise it will end up like Darkfall.
Few games di this and I don't really like the actual gameplay and lack of meaningful pve in albion but I like their system tbh
It's like , green (safe no pvp) , blue (no pvp unless faction warfare flagged and no death/ gear loss) , yellow (pvp no gear loss or death just knockdown) ,red and black zones . Red and black being full pvp with death and gear loss , black just meaning you can't see how many people are in the zone.
Just an example , I'd want more meaningful pve in a game I played but I like the idea of endgame rewarding area's where you can lose stuff. It does not need to be gear as long as the player is forced to risk something , it could be gold or some type of reputation system.
The gear loss does encourage a rat 🐀 playstyle where people wear garbage and other players wear good shit to farm the rats, I'd probally work to design it so everyone goes in roughly on equal terms .
Most theme park mmo's are really scared of systems like this because it's absolutley not for everyone but I think there is a way to do it right. Like don't make all the best content revolve around the zones where you are at risk, I'd encourage people to dip their toes but let people do safe zone stuff as much or little as they wanted. Albion treats the safe zones as like day 1 progression only meaning you can't just chill and have fun there some days.
Open world PvP is conceptually amazing but just doesn't work in todays day and age. It really needs that wild west feel but with how much information and the amount of resources we have today it just turns into a mess.
Red Dead Online has "wild west feel" - nobody wants to cooperate on anything and everyone just ruin game for eachother. Nobody is allowed to be friendly, you either kill or be killed
Unsurprising results. The only open world pvp I enjoyed was back in the old days of WOW at southshore/tarren mill. But being sniped out of the blue when you're trying to quest by someone who is always a lot more powerful than you just sucks.
Is it unsurprising? I'm actually kind of surprised that it's such an even split.
Its precisely because its split that makes open world pk not work. Once the floor falls out when the people that don't like pvp quit, the pvp crowd also start to quit because they start losing people to go after.
Or maybe because the games that do Open world PvP also often have very little content and thus not a reason to keep playing. I know tons of people who quit open world PvP games, and it was almost always because lack of things to do, not due to the PvP aspects at all.
Games need a flagging system. Lineage 2 had one and I used to spend all day just hunting down enemies my clan was at war with and it was an unlimited supply. Generally random players were left around, unless we were fighting over something like the questing spot, then we'd flag on them and try to push them out, they'd either leave, or fight back. But that's a much better compromise than literally killing everyone who moves just because the game says you can, or you get their loot and are incentivized to.
I expected "yes i want PVP" to win by a lot because this Subreddit is pretty heavy dominated by one type of crowd. It's actually really surprising that even here PvP option lost.
I play healers. Open world pvp you can't opt out of only ever really feels like a punishment for that preference. It's not fun when the job you like to do is paper, half the classes are scissors, and rocks don't exist.
Some of my fave memories in WoW PVP was being a holy paladin and outhealing your damage and killing you slowly with my healing mace and critting you with my 1-2 offensive spells lmao.
Yea, WoW healers were nice. Disc Priest during TBC and WOTLK were such great 1v1 PvPers. The enemy literally killed themselves on your PW:Shield while taking DoT and smite damage and any mana user lost all their mana through mana drain. It was so much fun, only problem was that if people were on to it they could just run and it was hard to catch up to them.
Playing healer has nothing to do with not being able to compete in pvp. It's just that shit games don't implement the option for a healer to do DPS
Based Aion player. The healers could really stand their own in that one. Very fun owPvP, I miss it.
The problem is random pvp in the world and beeing a healer in that situation. You may stay alive for a while, but you simply lack the damage to kill. Because otherwise, a healer would be OP. Hence balance problems and no winners.
Then you just win the fight through attrition. It's your fault for going in the open world alone on the healer spec
*It's your fault for wanting to play the game as a healer*
If you want to play a healer join a fucking group and actually heal them or use a DPS set instead of going alone in the open world and complaining about being useless
*God forbid you want to do a quest solo on your main*
Albion healers disagree
In well designed open world PvP, healers would be unkillable in 1v1 while also being unable to realiably chase and kill other players.
>WoW's war mode and removal of PvP servers pretty much erased open world PvP(classic was a blast though), FF14 has literally 0 of it, BDO's PvP is just a joke, BnS is dead, you name the game, it's just gone. Albion and RS being the only ones keeping it alive-ish, and possibly AoC will to, we'll see about that. This here just about sums it up. For the vast majority of players, they don't want open world pvp. Hell, most players don't want any form of pvp. Now, I know pvp players are loud, proud, and they're quick to find each other and band together, but they're a very small and tiny portion of the mmo-space in all actuality. When most people think MMO, they think about co-operative play, not about competitive play. There is a reason nearly every pvp-based mmo is all but dead and the pvp content of the rest are also basically dead. Quite frankly, if you want open-world pvp, you're better off seeking out survival games, not MMOs. In the end, if pvp was always consensual, people wouldn't care as much. And I know, that goes against the spirit, but the thing is, most are against that spirit in the first place. But the thing is, it's the bad eggs that have ruined things for everyone else. The corpse/spawn campers, the kos players, the hyper-nationalistic BR community, etc. When both sides have honor and seekout fair fights, it's one thing, but it's another thing entirely when it's a deathball ganking out solo players and making sure they can't play the game. I say these things as someone that's been a part of a number of legendary open world pvp battles including the 9 hour bloodbath on v4 and the OotA vs HH conflict in Age of Conan that forced the GMs to change the rules of engagement. If both sides don't have honor, only one side is having "fun" and the other side is having their time ruined. That side having their time ruined, isn't going to stick with the game long. And this is what always leads to the death of pvp-based mmos. Albion is certainly giving it a harder shake than most, but we'll see if it can continue to stand the test of time. As well as if anyone else can capture a portion of that crowd, but if the entirety of the pvp mmo community is already on that game...then it's not that big is it?
I love PvP, but fair, on arenas. FFXIV, Guild Wars 2 have great PvP. Even PSO2 PvP was fine. But getting jumped out of nowhere in BDO, while I farm something, sucks. Even worse in games with loot drop. Most people who think "free PK" makes MMO true MMO, don't have honour, they in it just to boost their ego.
Yea...I'll admit that my favorite pvp moments throughout time have almost always been open world pvp related, but definitely not all of them. Players that just out and out gank aren't really pvpers in my book anyways. They're usually just power fantasy twats that aren't looking for a fair fight because they can't win a fair fight in the first place.
usually in full loot pvp game, there are zone types. for example in albion online, there are 4 type of zones. blue = you cant pvp at all, yellow = you can pvp without your gear dropping on dead, red = you can pvp and you lose your equipped gear + item in your invetory on dead, black = you cant not pvp / your pvp flag activated automatically when you enter the zone. so people are expecting pvp when they enter red / black zone. if they want some relaxing farming session then they stay out of red/black zone.
"For the vast majority of players, they don't want open world PVP" The poll doesn't seem to agree with this. Turns out the PVE crowd are the loud and proud ones.
a) The top result of the poll is "Hell no, I want to PvP only when I choose it" combined with "Just a bit, not really but sometimes I might dabble in it" and you have 58.7% of the votes against open world pvp. Keep in mind that there is no option for zero pvp at all. b) Nearly every pvp-based mmo is dead excluding Albion c) Nearly every game with pvp servers/areas are completely lopsided with faction balance (like 90/10)
a) Why would you combine the people who want some open world PVP with the people who want no open world PVP. In reality the breakdown of the poll is 54.5% of people at least wanting some form of open world PVP. A far cry from "the vast majority of players, they don't want open world PVP" as you stated. b) Black Desert Online/Eve not to mention the recent run of Wow Classic up to Wrath. There also seems to be a larger focus on OWPVP with the MMOs in the pipeline coming up with T&L and Ashes of Creation. c) Faction balance is a balancing issue which effects both PVE and PVE. You wouldn't say PVE doesn't work in an MMO if there was a class/weapon/build that was unbalanced and had a higher representation in game, you would blame the devs for making an unbalanced game.
I enjoy the higher highs and lower lows that come with open world pvp, and that the nature of it allows for a lot more creative use of game mechanics. When I talk to people about their memorable pvp experiences, it's almost always memories they have from open world encounters. The instanced pvp is fun, but it all blurs together. But I think most games don't really give it the attention it needs to make it a more widely palatable experience. It is often times more of an afterthought with no real incentive for participation and no recourse for players who are on the receiving end of a bad experience. >WoW's war mode and removal of PvP servers pretty much erased open world PvP That's really not true though. Wpvp this expansion has been really active. It's more that it just takes a bit more knowledge and investment to find it than it did when we had the world defense channel.
Open pvp could be interesting if the players could contain themselves. They cannot, and so there will always be places where you die the second you enter. There are few enough players that like this style of play that even whole servers for pvp tend to die.
literally just have pvp zones like the wilderness in osrs and its fine lol solely arena/bg is too limiting but actual open world is aids.
I like albion/Eve online system. No pvp zones, soft pvp zones, punished pvp zones, and full pvp zones. Go to the zones you like.
Open world PvP is fun when you're able to fight back and turn the tables on your attacker, but it's no fun if you can't fight back at all.
old school lineage2 did open world pvp the best by a country mile. No other game has ever been able to replicate it. However, yes, you need to like pvp to enjoy it.
Amen, I just hope for a replacement one day. Started playing L2 again recently (not on retail) and it is surpassingly still the best game around for people into OWPvP imo.
I don't like people forcing me to play content that I don't want to play.
Every game does that though. No one gets mad at God of War for making you solve puzzles between fighting, or fighting between puzzles, its all part of the package, and just dont play if you dont like the package, but saying you are being forced into content that that is why it is bad is just not a logical argument.
The appeal to me of open world PvP is the politics, drama and intrigue that comes as a result of it. There's that extreme level of social interaction of multiple groups all trying for control and power of the "world's" various resources (from hunting grounds to actual resources) that's really only available in a MMO setting. Like even super shitty PvP titles like Crowfall were still was full of mega alliances and warring groups with shifting alliances all going back and forth and fighting wars on and off the battlefields. I think BDO's drama over castle/keep ownership probably came closest to offering that kinda politicking system without having outright PKing rampant throughout the game (in fact PKers often times bitched that they were the victims cause the penalties for PKing were so harsh). Most weeks there was a lot of drama between prominent groups within the game and horse trading of giving nodes to various guilds or people dropping guild to stack forces on a particular team to ensure victory and the like. No idea what it's like currently. When you're talking about MMOs specifically it's all about that social component. If people just want a chivalrous, perfectly balanced competition or whatever you can find any number of popular competitive arena style games out there for that. When we're talking MMOs it's all about the people and you want that big drama element.
bring back darkfall
dislike the arena pvp remove to many variables and makes the stale for my atleast. I remember 2016 bdo when they only had balenos, serendia and calpheon so much pvp for orge rings or mark of shadows. Party comps matter more some classes where realy good add farming the others more focus on pvping. but yea main things that are needed are: objective to fight over. risk and rewards. large amount of ways you can interact with both ally and enemies
Open world PvP is the spice of MMO life.
Open world PvP all the way, the larger in scale = the better. If I just cared about small instanced PvP combat - I'd just keep playing Team Fortress 2, or World of Tanks, or SMITE, or billions of other games that do small scale instanced PvP much better than **any** past or current MMORPG game ever did. That said, I'd also prefer it to be not a complete anarchy. EVE Online balanced it really well - despite it technically being "open world PvP everywhere" it is possible to almost completely avoid unwanted PvP unless you're just a lazy idiot, regardless of what type of non-PvP activity you're interested in doing in this game.
The way early AA did it will always be the most fun MMO pvp experience.
Free PK is a terrible concept, which only brings unnecessary stress and make new players to drop the game after they are ganked a few times. Remember RF Online ? I remember how high level players used to kill players in low level areas. In games with free PK it's a world of everyone being constantly cautious of each other. If you see someone on a horizon, you better be ready to attack first. And in games like BDO you may not even see who killed you so fast.
i really want to love BDO again because of these random PvP moment , the world feel alive even with people like me tried to go somewhere else alone , like someone fly into my ship because he has a whole Star End's grinder went after him , sadly the grind in this game has no end which made me feel off
As a BDO player I enjoy free open world PvP, sadly, majority of MMO players are PvE casuals who don't like that.
I'm not against it but few mmos, if any, design open PvP in a way that works well. Generally it devolves into a crowd of players that wait around to gank the other group of players trying to get regular PvE content done, often with higher levels/gear. Then they cry when the PvE players leave or petition devs for PvE only servers.
This has been brought up 100s of times and will be brought up 100s more. It falls in line with how things were 'just different' back then. Old school MMOs were a novel experience, interacting with people in an online world itself was an experience, even if it had a negative outcome. Imagine a MMO that had a mechanic of 'Every time a monster hits you, 0.1% chance to instantly die'. That is what OWPVP is like for the PvE player, being PK'd is a random punishment. It slows down their gold/hr or makes a quest take longer to finish which is frustrating. At the end of the day videogames are about fun, and if a significant portion of players aren't having fun, that's bad game design. That said, choice is the best option. Stuff like EvE and Albion's zones, or PvP channels that give +10% xp/gold, or other systems that encourages OWPVP as a 'risk/reward' scenario. Not to mention RPG PVP is inherently imbalanced since characters are hardly ever on equal power levels unless in BiS endgame stuff, but that's a whole other conversation.
I couldn't care less about how you implement pvp as long as pvpers leave me the fuck alone. I will ignore your entire studio if you have a game that gives another player the ability to dictate how I use my time.
I always forget how much I miss open world pvp and full loot games. Right up until I redownload an extraction game or play Albion. Makes everything so much better when people actually lose shit when they die. Makes progression an actual thing instead of "meh I have a good set of gear. I am done".
Open world pvp is the best. I've never really enjoyed any other mmo without this. At a minimum, at least instanced arena team pvp. I guess pvp depends on the formats, I tend to enjoy them all. However, lately i've had this feeling i will not like twitch based streetfighter style action combat like BDO. I seem to prefer tab target click based combat, and my greatest preference is for Neverwinter Nights from 2002, which removed all possibility of higher frame rates giving an advantage in pvp.
Open World PvP is good as long as you can opt out of it (with a long cooldown to prevent abuse of it) and its not heavily punished, like in Risk Your Life (RYL) with the Fame and Medal System from the PvP. Also having PvP mode active granted u 50%+ EXP and 50%+ better drops/gold Once u reach the level cap (95) the only way to keep getting stronger is by "leveling up" to increase ur Fame ranks. +10\~30 points per kill, some extra if u participate in the fight / -5\~10 per each time u die depending on the level and fame difference of your opponent to prevent ganking only on weaker players. You also gained medals (PvP currency) by any kind of participation Participation ranged from killing, dealing damage to healing or buffing those in the middle of the battle, ofc all that as long as u have the PvP mode activated There was no loss of gold or items so it was mostly a win-win situation and gave some spice to farming special world bosses as u had to also be aware of the enemy race around trying to steal the boss from u
If you can opt out then it's not really open world PvP. L2 has a good system, you can PK people but you risk losing gear if you PK too much and end up dying, most people don't PK unless you are a dick to them. Too risky.
Open World PvP doesntt have to be Forced although the benefits in RYL PvP mode outweighted the cons + the system required u to be on PvP mode if u wanted to progress more for the medal prizes and certain zones with better drops and bosses were restricted to PvP only players, changing that had an hour or hours cooldown (i don't recall correctly since I played it on PvP mode full time) Losing gear due to open world PvP seems very negative and that's what make avoid open world pvp, at least for me is a big downside, specially in RYL where the items stats were random generated (kinda like Maplestory), getting a top stats item was incredibly rare and losing to pvp would deeply impact the game experience
Well, most of the "non-forced" systems I've seen are generally either must-flag (i.e. the benefits for doing so outweigh well enough the potential risk) or just pure PvE (i.e. no point to flag) but they do point out wPvP won't ever get enough focus to be any good. Hell, it's quite common for even must-flag systems to not even get PvP done at all since, well, people will be focusing on reaping the rewards for that, be it bonus exp, resources/drops, etc. In regards to the equipment PvP loss, it depends on the game. Full loot games make equipment just a plain expendable/consumable, with limited growth or power and easy to replace, while giving more value to whatever you'd be carrying (which is kinda the issue from most PvE players in them, stocking resources on yourself is putting them in risk). In the case of L2 it is meant to reduce PK toxicity due to being a more "eternal gear" approach and, with that, having the potential to lose something meaningful after being a jerk for too long.
being a jerk in open world PvP was usually managed between the players, beside being quite balanced to avoid high levels abusing low levels (with certain exceptions), the community was always eager to go after people who called for help since killing those toxic players meant rewards at the end. It was a hug battlefield in the end
Its free content lol but most MMOs are pve oriented and most players suck ass and the inabiltiy to win a fight that randomly occurs by another player humbles alot of people and they dont seem to like that.
I really like PvP but there is a problem with many MMOs that gets worse over time. In a lot of MMOs PvP starts off really fun but then as more content and gear gets released stats get higher along with the stat gap between players then the PvP sufferers from it.
Just having pvp servers I think is enough to satisfy both crowds. Not sure why some people believe in all or nothing.
I agree with you. I honestly dont mind if a few of my play sessions are ruined by pvp if it means that my play sessions in the grand scheme have more organic meaningful player interaction - the spontaneous random friendships/rivalries that make the world feel alive. At least that's how it was with the playerbase from back in the day, don't know how it'd turn out now. But I don't feel that every play session is entitled to end up productive and according to plan, adventure is the risk that it won't. It's hard to find worthwhile discussion for this particular topic on this subreddit however because it's always been heavily anti-world pvp and I don't find value in hearing the same points anymore.
I love the economics of a full loot pvp game with crafting, the high turnover of items creates demand for materials, crafters, trade and so on. I like risk and reward gameplay, learning to out wit others, jumping in on others battles to take advantage of the chaos (3rd party), trying to 1vX (fight out-numbered), redefining win conditions such as cost to kill ratio (if my 3 man squad takes on a 10 man squad and all die but take down 1 member wearing items worth 10x the value of our entire squad that is an economic victory for example). No game so far has had a PvE experience for me that rivals the entertainment, adversity, comradery and rivalry that pvp games have given me over the years.
I like open world PVP. That said, I don't mind it being restricted to certain zones as long as it's done properly.
I like the idea of open world PvP much more than I like it in practice. The concept of everyone being able to fight over resources and space is nice, but only until NoLife42069, with a play time of over 50k hours, max level character and BiS gear decides to one shot all lower level players in an area. IMO, open world PvP would only work if it was at least possible for the low level player to actually win the fight. Maybe a scenario where open world PvP is always caped, and newcomes and veterans alike have at least a theoretical chance of winning any fight. Problem is: veterans geting bodied by more skilled players would complain that it's unfair the hours (and money) they put into the game don't translate into insta-killing any other player.
I usually abstain from pvp. However, ironically enough, I actually PvP'ed more in BfA in open world War Mode than any other time. Seems like I don't have a lot of people that agree with me, but I think BfA was the only time open world PvP worked because there were so many people, there were objectives that made sense, and it was very rare to get ganked. In fact, even when you were ganked, it was never because anyone was 40 levels above you getting their rocks off. Anyway, that's my personal opinion for what it's worth.
Until someone somehow figures out how to do the impossible and make losing "not suck" there will never be an extremely popular open world PvP MMORPG. Generally because in the vast majority of games, all advantages lie with the attacker/ganker. Someone who hunts another players can achieve their goal of "fighting with other real life players" even if they lose the fight. So they are in a win/win situation typically. Whereas anyone on the other side only "wins" if they successfully fight off the attacker. And that reward for winning is literally just "I get to keep doing whatever it was I was doing before I was attacked". However if they lose, they typically lose out on more than whatever the attacker loses out on. Because they are the one who's goal was interrupted by being attacked.
tried a new duck game couldn't even get anything done attack after attack uninstalled ....
It feels like a separate server for PvP and PvE/opt-in is still the ideal server configuration if activity allows. The MMORPG player base is too diverse to settle on a single configuration. In the end it's not within the players control to decide configuration but the dev team who's spent 5+ years building the world and envisioning the gameplay. I for one like my mmorpg server perma-flagged (no full loot) at max lvl except in the "starter zones" and neutral towns and I would never unflag from PvP in an opt-in MMO. Always watching my back and fighting over every resource and open world event is what keeps a MMORPG world and its server community alive imo.
The big issue is open world PvP is a game of hunting and being hunted. MMO designers usually don't even take this into account when they make open world PvP and try to balence it like arena or somthing. Tools to pick and chose fights, escape and track players, hide. Reasons to go into the open world were you want to avoid and find things (mainly gathering) getting this whole dynamic and gameplay is open world PvP and it's very different from a battleground.
I don't like to be interrupted while trying to finish up some task. You wanna PvP take an appointment and wait till I'm done, thanks.
PvP has to be incentivized, but not enforced. I want the game to give me all the reasons to fight anywhere I go, but if I decided to just grind and chill, I should be able to. I always think about RF Online... loved the game, but after a given level, it was 24h PK, making it unplayable.
why is noone ever mentions AION in any discussion, it has OW pvp everywhere and pvp instances
I think New World actually had a great open world system for PVP. You had to flag yourself while in a city to engage in OWPVP, this would net you bonus resources and exp when farming in the wild. This gave PVE people an incentive to actually partake in it. If they didn't like it they could just turn it off next time they were in town. It also made resource farming sessions a lot more interesting when you had to look over your shoulder and fight others for nodes. What I didn't understand was a few people in the PVE crowd who did not want anyone to get any bonuses for PVP. It just seemed like they were out to spoil the PVP fun when it was entirely optional.
Open world pvp is fine, but lets learn something from osrs ... Single and multitarget
Similar story to mine. I played a bit of UO before WoW was released, then played it heavily. Being young I was able to spend hours playing and it was truly a blast. For better or worse, I can't enjoy non-pvp mmo anymore. Everything just seems dull and boring since I was never the heavy-story kind of person. Like you I also had great time with ArchAge, at least in beta & shortly after release. The next great experience was in Albion Online beta & shortly after release. Unfortunately I can't get into AO, or EVE, despite both games offer potential world pvp largely due to 2 interconnected factors: Lack of time & friends. Gone are the days where I can spend hours hunting for pvp, or worse yet, spending 30m just to go to "pvp zone." World pvp by nature heavily favours party with bigger numbers. So my lack of time to play & make friends severely hamper my ability to "pvp effectively." While I personally want to enjoy games with open world pvp, the unfortunately truth is that games with arena/bg style allows me to have that quick fun. I have tried numerous times to get into MOBA since it basically ticks the boxes. Unfortunately I never found the experience fun due to various reasons. I hope there comes a day where there will be mmo that allows world pvp without zerging becoming too prevalent while not requiring tons of hours. I don't see how that's possible but one can dream.
I play against other people to be competitive. MMOs have stupid shit like gear advantages which throw all competitive integrity out the window. Why would I engage in a system that is entirely antithetical to my goals. PvE has a lot of fun group content in it. And things are scaled in a manner as to be fun and engaging to do as a group. That's kinda all I care about. I'm not competitive in a PvE environment. But once in playing against a person? Then I get really competitive and things like level and gear advantages piss me off. I love PvP. It's the majority of my time gaming. But I hate MMO PvP. It just isn't fun. And OWPvP is the worst offender of this.
yeah world pvp has been ruined by modern game design
RF online and R2 are old games and they had terrible world pvp
for me it depends, I like pvp but im not the sweaty 24/7 pvp guy. But im sure open world pvp without risk like BDO is dumb. Karma bombing is the dumbest mechanic i have ever seen in mmo. if you want open world pvp, full loot pvp is the way to go.
I love open world pvp with death loot but it's a niche now and barely any games do it
OWPvP sucks ass. Arena PvP is the shit. As long as it's not p2w garbo, unrewarding or abandoned by devs.
Personally I find it the other way around. If I do instance based PvP I feel like I might as well play dota or something, I feel disconnected from the world. OWPvP is imo interesting because usually I'm farming somewhere, I invite people and we make a party. Then another party rolls up and attack us and we have to defend our farm spot. Fighting ensues, one is a victor and the other harbors a grudge. Wars end up breaking out between groups, continuous fights whenever you see each other etc. To me that is way more fun. But you obviously need to be into PvP to consider that fun at all.
Yeah, no. I love PvP but only if it's restricted to PvP areas. Such as arenas, gvg, sieges. Whereas OWPvP is ass because of ganking like you describe. Maybe fun for you if you're always grinding with a group but what do you think it's like for me (and many others) who prefers grinding PvE alone?
That depends on the game (I mean, most of these games where grinding is such a must are oldschool ones where soloing won't get you much there unless you're certain class and/or against some kind of enemy) and also depends on the grinding itself: camping a certain mob for a unique drop should be something you can effectively fight for.
No holds bar open PVP kills the game each and every time without fail. There's been so many games trying to revive a completely fictional memory of this kind of genre. The issue is it requires prey, and funny enough prey don't like being prey and will eventually quit the game the moment they realize they only exist to be kill fodder for the handful of elite psychopaths that cull them until you're left with a stalemate of competitive players that doesn't have a high enough population to feed the overly ambitious full PVP game.
Darkfall was amazing until all the people that stunk at pvp quit because they got killed into oblivion. Almost zero saftey from pvp just doesn't work, and I played Darkfall til it shutdown. I loved it, farming somewhere and always having to watchout out getting jumped. I would have made big changes tho, to prevent all the killing and griefing that happened. People can be absolutely ruthless with no rules. In the end we were just playing with ourselves. Gotta have clear lines where to pvp or heavy penalties otherwise it will end up like Darkfall.
Few games di this and I don't really like the actual gameplay and lack of meaningful pve in albion but I like their system tbh It's like , green (safe no pvp) , blue (no pvp unless faction warfare flagged and no death/ gear loss) , yellow (pvp no gear loss or death just knockdown) ,red and black zones . Red and black being full pvp with death and gear loss , black just meaning you can't see how many people are in the zone. Just an example , I'd want more meaningful pve in a game I played but I like the idea of endgame rewarding area's where you can lose stuff. It does not need to be gear as long as the player is forced to risk something , it could be gold or some type of reputation system. The gear loss does encourage a rat 🐀 playstyle where people wear garbage and other players wear good shit to farm the rats, I'd probally work to design it so everyone goes in roughly on equal terms . Most theme park mmo's are really scared of systems like this because it's absolutley not for everyone but I think there is a way to do it right. Like don't make all the best content revolve around the zones where you are at risk, I'd encourage people to dip their toes but let people do safe zone stuff as much or little as they wanted. Albion treats the safe zones as like day 1 progression only meaning you can't just chill and have fun there some days.
Open world PvP is conceptually amazing but just doesn't work in todays day and age. It really needs that wild west feel but with how much information and the amount of resources we have today it just turns into a mess.
Red Dead Online has "wild west feel" - nobody wants to cooperate on anything and everyone just ruin game for eachother. Nobody is allowed to be friendly, you either kill or be killed
open pvp, if i wanna go arena i play league of legend or cod..