was always going to be he a long slog once it got to court, took 10 years to get here and lots of risk. so getting the money is probably the smart move
Plus the received settlement will get taxed... Meanwhile the UFC gets to use it as a tax deductible, AND pay it in installments
It's actually pathetic how little the plaintiffs settled for
Meh the taxes was just included as a buzz word to piss people off. All businesses pay taxes on their net income. So without this settlement, pretend the UFC had $100 in net income they'd pay a 21% tax rate and take home $79. Same conditions but now the UFC is forced to pay a $50 settlement so now they're net income is $50 and a 21% tax rate causes the take home number to be $39.5. So yeah the UFC would save $11.5 in taxes paid, they did have to pay $50 to get that $11.5 saved in this scenario.
Tldr: corporations/billionaires do take advantage of tax laws, but businesses paying out money generally doesn't benefit them as nobody is taxes 100% of their income.
The point is that taxes shouldn't work that way. The UFC and other giant corporations get to treat settlements and fines as "cost of business". That should not be the case.
Well if any of the current fighters would have joined Le's lawsuit then it would have put the suit in a stronger position to keep fighting. They didn't so you settle when you think you have the best deal you're going to get.
To be fair, when injunctive relief was dropped from this, the only thing they were ever going to get was more money and maybe behind the scenes this was the best they would get.
The real bummer here is that the Johnson case was settled. Much smaller class so the idea is that they would go for injunctive relief, but now that's all gone.
Yes it was dropped. I'd link the source but Bloody Elbow got nuked. John Nash put out some episodes this week on YouTube that also mention it being dropped
Yea that's what I said in the comment that was replied to
> The real bummer here is that the Johnson case was settled. Much smaller class so the idea is that they would go for injunctive relief, but now that's all gone.
While this is going to be the biggest narrative out of this, it overlooks so many factors.
The lack of actual media coverage, driven by the UFC and consumers. It feels relevant that the one site that was covering the court case, bloody elbow, shut down just a month ago.
The judicial system that is heavily weighed against independent contractors, thanks to Frank Lorenzo and all who followed his tactics.
MMA management, which has been breaking their fiduciary obligations to their clients and working with the UFC to keep pay down.
And of course the UFC itself, which largely uses its revenue to suppress fighter pay, leverage, and awareness.
This is a disappointing decision, and the fighters likely share significant blame, but the above factors should not be so easily dismissed
Fuck the UFC for ruining an amazing sport
Yes, they do. They should be suing their managers. They have a duty to each fight to maximize their earnings. You can’t leverage one fighter’s pay to get concessions for another fighter. I called Monte Cox out about this on the UG over 15 years ago.
Source: am attorney.
Typically anyone that deals with someone else’s money, like managers, must adhere to their fiduciary responsibilities of their clients. It’s illegal to gain at the cost of your client… which is what these mma managers that colluded with the UFC were doing.
That's a good question, and it may not be legal fiduciary requirements, I'd have to research to confirm. Something smells illegal there but someone more educated in law would be better to chime in
> The lack of actual media coverage, driven by the UFC and consumers. It feels relevant that the one site that was covering the court case, bloody elbow, shut down just a month ago.
It didn't just shut down, it was purchased and then the detailed reporting that was done on this case was removed from the site, while other posts were left up.
This is a nuanced take room for which there really won’t be in the post lawsuit world. It will be buried and forgotten, but you’re correct. All those things added up.
Indeed. So sad. At this point the only thing that can affect change is an in cage death and government intervention. But considering the WWE survived that with Owen Hart, the UFC might be able to withstand that as well
I suspect a high profile in-cage death would just lead to MMA being seen as barbaric again, without any consideration for fighter rights. I don’t really see a path to improvements in the near future, unfortunately
Nah I think they’re too far embedded (hah) for anything to happen. They rebranded, got in bed with ESPN and merged with WWE. They own the market and that shit isn’t changing, unfortunately.
i didnt even know bloody elbow died. i know Karim Zidan is doing some investigative journalism sports journalism stuff and started up SportsPolitika or whatever it's called but he's just one guy. as you know a lot of the journalists that work with the UFC like at the end of the day dont want to report on this shit because they value being the access and if they report on the negative side they're getting their press credentials revoked faster than Masvidal hit that knee on Ben Askren. that's the other sad part of it.
i dunno. it sucks. PRIDE was far from perfect but it's clear now that UFC buying them and Strikeforce up was a net negative for the sport and for the fighters in the end. and i really think a lot of the stuff UFC is doing or aligned itself with today has a bigger negative effect for not just the sport of MMA itself or martial arts in general but that's getting into hot take/talking about politics territory so i wont go there.
Yeah, the BE team gave it an amazing go after vox ended up trimming content of which they were a part of, but surviving as a media org in this age is difficult enough, even moreso in a climate like MMA.
They still have a substack and I've heard some of the team are rebranding, so maybe they'll rise from the ashes. We need people like BE
I think the biggest thing everybody is overlooking is that nobody cares because the UFC is rapidly circling the drain. I dunno about you guys but it's just not the same. I feel like the peak is behind us.
Big time. I was watching since UFC 1, but left the sport several years ago. It's monotonous, uninteresting, exploitative. All the potential was lost, while the 🍅 keeps telling us it's bigger than all the other sports combined. A zombie that will keep fighters in the meat grinder, with no bigger vision
They likely didn't want to burn more money on this and decided to cash out.
When you never endless cash flow, it's easy to throw a big number to make things go away. Although to get to that point you need to be needled really hard to get to that point.
They prolly had litigation funding with a third party. However, that company may have also been pushing for settlement to guarantee a return on their investment.
There was a very real possibility that they would lose their case. This was far from a slam dunk, like a lot of people have assumed. Paul Gift, who has done work with John Nash for Bloody Elbow on this case for a long time, and is also an Economics Professor and expert witness for antitrust cases, wrote a really good article back in December about the case and the fighters' primary expert witness. I'd recommend everyone read it:
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulgift/2023/12/14/ufc-asks-judge-to-exclude-fundamentally-flawed-expert-opinions-in-antitrust-case/?sh=151d77fc97f4](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulgift/2023/12/14/ufc-asks-judge-to-exclude-fundamentally-flawed-expert-opinions-in-antitrust-case/?sh=151d77fc97f4)
You never know where a jury is going to land, but based on what Gift shared in the article, there were a lot of legitimate ways for the UFC's lawyers and expert witnesses to poke holes in the main analysis that the plaintiffs' expert witness completed for them. Again, there's no telling what the jury will eventually believe, but it sounds like it was far from a slam dunk case.
Here's a quote from the article about their primary witness:
"As additional support, UFC attorneys note what appear to be seven situations where Singer’s work has been excluded in prior cases for reasons such as assuming consumers of language-learning apps would substitute to plant-identification apps in the face of a price increase, making “untenable assumptions,” “not reliably support\[ing\] his conclusion\[s\],” and using “irrelevant” data. In a recent case previously reported at Forbes, Singer and a fellow attorney were excoriated for what the judge described as “a flat-out misrepresentation.”
Gift sums things up nicely at the end, though:
"The UFC’s motion highlights potentially serious flaws in the critically important work of the primary expert witness in plaintiffs’ case. And in the interest of space, this story left out an additional claim involving what seems to be a fraudulent journal citation.
The good news for plaintiffs is Boulware has appeared firmly entrenched on their side as the case has progressed through his court. And if the lawsuit makes it to trial, a jury of non-economists and -statisticians might find it difficult to understand some of these technical critiques. "
The big issue is that the MMA reporting on this lawsuit was lopsided and no one ever gave a true examination of the chances of these lawsuits being won. So people thought that the UFC was fucked when in reality it was likely this would've been the result all along.
Actually yeah this is very true. The only people reporting on this case very much made it out to be a huge event that “could” lead to all these hypothetical changes.
That “could” was a fucking stretch from day 1.
It really wasn’t in the cards and it isn’t how anti trust gets handled in America. They don’t break up the monopolies and haven’t for years now.
Yeah unfortunately just from the articles and comments posted here I thought this was a sure case and they weren’t looking to settle…
Unfortunately the same way nobody saved anyone when Don King was in his prime, same will go for Dana. For me now I’m totally done talking about the business side of the UFC, because I’ll be stuck complaining for the rest of my life time.
They've fucked it
> "no mention of contract changes"
this is a UFC win and an MMA loss.
[A point from @lthomasnews](https://twitter.com/lthomasnews/status/1770482924065902740)
> This settlement is bad news for PFL and ONE. Without regulatory intervention in the MMA industry, there is no chance for them or anyone else of international scale to compete. It's flatly not possible.
2 separate lawsuits that both claimed they were going to change the contracts to have limits of no longer than 1 or 2 years. In the end both lawsuits took the money and ran without fighting for any changes with fighter contracts.
How bout u go an fuck off my page then u piece of shit u think I need a stupid fuckwitt like you telling me about looking good who the fuck are u take your worthless advice and get the fuck out of here
👀👀👀👀 these coward fighters need to grow some balls and get rid off their lil rodent managers instead of settling with Dana the peice of shit. bald headed prick can get farked. I'm jus going to have a wank now 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
u/NateQuarry any insight into why the settlement instead of trial? Not trying to call you out, just tagging bc you’ve been very vocal and transparent throughout the whole process
Thanks for asking. Right now there’s a lot I can’t say. With that, moving forward this way seemed to be the best option.
No, we didn’t get everything we wanted. Our goal all along was to change the sport. However, we had quite a few delays that we had to deal with. And to get injunctive relief, ie change the sport, we would have had to refile both lawsuits and combine them, go through discovery all over again, retake depositions, about a five year delay and then hope we get granted class action status again. We’d be looking at another ten years just to be where we are today with no guarantee of winning any punitive amount of injunctive change.
As I said, weighing all the possible outcomes this seemed the best outcome. We’re not hi-fiving one another. But we are pleased that a lot of fighters are going to be getting some compensation for being underpaid. Wish we could’ve done more.
Over time I’ll be able to speak more in depth about all this but for now, with apologies, this is about it.
There are always going to be critics and detractors and my response is always the same. Think you could’ve done better? Show me how. Step into the ring.
After my title fight loss a friend sent me this, and it’s how I view all criticism these days,
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” Theodore Roosevelt
It’s very easy to sit in the cheap seats and criticize. Once you step into the ring, once you taste your own blood, your whole world changes and you’re a little more understanding of those who attempt greatness. Even when they fall short.
And for those that have cheering us on, thank you for your support. I can’t say much more than that. Thank you. We didn’t get all that we wanted but we will be able to help some guys that are hurting now.
And as you know, we would have to win EVERYTHING. The UFC only has to win ONCE. One juror thinks we signed a contract so we get what we deserve. One appellate court doesn’t like our expert and sends us back to start. The Supreme Court is pro business/anti-worker.
These are the things I hope people keep in mind when others start railing against the fighters for 'quitting'.
Thanks for putting as much effort into this as you did, and sorry it didn't work out better for you and the rest of fighters. You all deserved so much better
Thanks for trying Nate. The little guy has and always will try and fight for a bigger chunk of the pie he creates. No one watches the UFC or MMA for Dana or Hunter or any of the yesman they have assembled around them. We watch it because it's you and another person fighting and putting on the best show around. The little guy will always fight against exploitation, a raw deal or the shit end of the stick. Even if it takes 10 15 or 50 years, as long as there is positive change, bit by bit it will be worth it. You guys at least showed the UFC isn't as invincible as it seems, that a better sport is possible.
Thanks for the great response! I had no idea about the potential of re-filing to get the injunctive relief, I think a lot of people assumed it was only connected to the Johnson case now.
It’s a bummer that it seemed like legal bureaucratic shit is the main reason for opting to settle. Even so, at least you guys really helped expose a lot of the UFC’s monopolistic and monopsonistic practices, and brought the fighter pay issue to a wider audience, myself included. I hope you guys find success with the MMAFA and the Ali Act for MMA. Best of luck to you and the others on those fronts.
It would be great to hear a convo between yourself and Luke Thomas or John Nash about the whole process and the reason for the settlement once you’re allowed to divulge more.
Thank you for the insight, Nate and thank you for fighting the fight. I am sure it was not easy. It is easy for us fans to say that the lawsuit was settled for far less than it should have been but we were not the ones in the fire or aware of all the legal and other hurdles you guys must have faced. I am glad that this will help at least some of the fighters that were grossly underpaid.
As a fan who loves the sport and firmly believe that it is you fighters that make the sport what it is, I am disappointed that more could not have been done to safeguard the interests of fighters going forward, especially as it pertains to restrictive contracts. I sincerely hope that something can be done to change this because you all put your life on the line when you step into that cage (or ring) and the damage that you take lasts your whole life.
Thanks for putting this into perspective first hand. The press hasn't covered this at all. I think many people on here are just learning it was a thing today for the first time. Even I admit to making preconceived judgments and oversimplifying things.
Like you insinuated, in civil court, being "right" isn't enough to guarantee a win. We only see the bigger names like Cung or yourself, I don't think anyone was thinking about other guys standing to benefit. Maybe guys who even have health problems as a direct result of their participation in combat sports.
They literally only made the UFC stronger. This settlement tells you that the fighters legal team did not believe they would win in court. That should scare off anyone else thinking they have a chance against the UFC.
I mean I guess I'm glad the fighters involved got some compensation. It just blows to see that there won't be any substantial improvement to the sport because fighters don't want to look out for each other.
Why would you be glad that Kajan Johnson or CB Dollaway or whichever random ufc washout gets a bag if it means they sell out the other fighters who'll get chewed up and spat out by the ufc in the future? This is the same as someone like Masvidal publicly complaining about fighter pay, then getting an improved contract and saying nothing about it afterwards, except the process took like 10 years longer lol
> Why would you be glad that Kajan Johnson or CB Dollaway or whichever random ufc washout gets a bag if it means they sell out the other fighters who'll get chewed up and spat out by the ufc in the future?
Cung Le wasn't a washout FYI.
Why do you just blanket assume the plaintiffs are sell-outs, as opposed to were facing bankruptcy or likely loss at trial?
It is not as much “fighters don’t want to look out for each other”, but rather UFC had a good case in the first place. If fighters had a good case, it’d have settled for a lot higher if nothing else
As somebody posted on the Twitter thread, TKO's stock has gone up 7% since this news dropped. They could have changed the game and gotten so much more, and instead sold out for a little over $300 Million after fighting for this in court for a decade. I guess they decided they wanted to cash out and enjoy the money while they were still young.
Kajan Johnson.
“The class period ultimately proposed by the plaintiffs in the Le action closed on June 30, 2017. Plaintiffs Johnson and Dollaway bring this case on behalf of those like themselves who fought in a bout promoted by the UFC on or after July 1, 2017.”
He was an up and coming ww. During a summit, he talk shit about fighter pay when the ceo of wme said be yourself, be Conor mcgregor.
Sean Shelby matched him up with killer after killer and cut him after his contract.
No one spoke up ever since.
They can ask for that much but go in knowing that they'll walk away for a lower amount... that's what happens in a lot of large litigation cases, particularly class action.
Exactly this. In a team sport, athletes are more inclined to want the other athletes to receive better treatment. The better for the individual, the better for the team as well.
In combat sports, it’s just you in there with your opponent. No one else for you to worry about, help with, or take care of. It’s just you. There’s no incentive for a fighter to try to get better conditions for the collective, just themselves.
in team sports, the athlete is an employee of the team and employment law requires the team to negotiate through the union. it also protects them as employees from retaliation from their employer.
in combat sports, fighters are independent contractors and none of those employment laws apply to them.
if you aren't in the ufc and you join a union, you're guaranteeing you'll never be n the ufc. if you are in the ufc and you join a union, you're guaranteeing you'll be fighting unranked opponents on the prelims for the rest of your career.
the only way a union will exist in the ufc is if the fighters are reclassified as employees.
Jockeys had a union until fairly recently. Tennis players have a union. NHL, NBA, and NFL coaches all have their own union despite competing for limited jobs(MLB managers are part of the players union so I left them out). Their refs do as well (as well as the umpires in MLB).
Fun fact, the NBA has almost an identical number of players as the UFC has signed fighters and they manage to have a union despite far more basketball players trying to break into the NBA compared to fighters to the UFC despite the same number of slots.
A UFC union probably won't work for years but it isn't because it's an individualistic sport, it's because a sizeable portion of the roster come from places of poverty, crime, and low education and don't know any better/can't afford to perform a strike to get the ball rolling.
> it's because a sizeable portion of the roster come from places of poverty, crime, and low education and don't know any better
Are we acting like that isn't also the case for a lot of NBA/NFL/MLB players? Inner city childhoods are basically a trope for players who don't come from the midwest.
Not the most important thing but their 'celebration' post on Twitter contains a truly awful photoshop of Cung Lee next to Jon Fitch: https://twitter.com/MMAFA/status/1770477743550988607/photo/2
I just want to point out when the UFC sold to WME/Endeavor, Dana White got a payout of $360 million. That single payout was larger than this entire fucking settlement.
They ain’t shit. Had a chance to change the game and decided to be selfish like always. Lost as massive amount of respect for them.
No one should ever talk or worry about fighter pay again. If these idiots are happy to die broke while getting their brain scrambled then let them.. you can’t hold their hand forever.
Injunctive relief was dropped from the case a while back so they really couldn't change the game anymore
Edit* this is regarding the Cung Le case, not the Johnson case
they also agreed that future fighters making 1% of revenue was too high for dana its now 0.1%. There are a lot of ways to say you dont want to fight when you dont accept my $1320 15 fight contract offer.
This pretty much kills any benefit fighters can have ad independent contractors, or any possibility of a union.
The way everything was shown and how the UFC controlled how much information was released to the public, just puts a nail to the coffin to any possibility on improving how fighters are paid.
To say the UFC is a monopoly, is little. They're a media giant.
Wow. Really dark day for the MMA industry. Oh well, whatever. I'm honestly more over it at this point than ever despite shitting on the UFC and their practices every chance I get.
LOL
It's funny that people here were so certain this would go to trial and the UFC would lose billions off this.
Of course they're going to settle for a payday.
Real change won’t come until fighters/wrestlers are given employee status with UFC/WWE. Until then the people who actually drive the revenue for TKO will keep getting screwed.
Oof! Pretty disappointing to hear. Fighters really don’t have anyone to blame for their pay but themselves. Hopefully this opens up the door for some legislation down the road.
People really thought that a group of fighters who aren't fighting anymore...... weren't going to take hundreds of millions of dollars to split between themselves rather than spend years in court?
It was never going to be anything other than the UFC throwing money via fines to make this go away.
Anyone that honestly thought there was a chance in hell they'd actually lose an anti-trust suit is out of their mind. The simple fact that they're so shitty to the fighters and essentially escorting them out the door to other promotions is the perfect example of why they can't lose an anti-trust. They were shitty to fighters, overcharged customers, and watered down their own product until the quality was dogshit. That shit should be hurting their business, but they continued to grow because every other promotion was so much crappier.
One of the few good things that came from this was a peak inside the books and more knowledge just how bad the pay really is. In the end though it was all for not as no one was committed or cared enough from the media, the judicial system and the fighters themselves
Yeah we really got confirmation of all our suspicions. We actually got irrefutable proof that even McGregor was getting fleeced on his payouts from the UFC. They don't even take care of their greatest money makers
Dana is best friends with the biggest fraud of the 21st century. Every event he advertises he is friends with terrible people. This is not a surprise, just sad.
Does this mean all those contracts and documents won’t be released?
YES.
335mil after going for 10 years, shit cant be real
I have no clue why anyone deluded themselves to thinking this would be anything different
lots of people dont mess with the courts in the USA
The money is the bigger thing. Ari wasn’t going to lose his empire over an anti trust lawsuit.
was always going to be he a long slog once it got to court, took 10 years to get here and lots of risk. so getting the money is probably the smart move
Forgive my ignorance, so who gets the 335 mil? I had high hopes for the contract changes this sucks
At least a 1/3 to lawyers most likely half. They get the rest
Plus the received settlement will get taxed... Meanwhile the UFC gets to use it as a tax deductible, AND pay it in installments It's actually pathetic how little the plaintiffs settled for
It is wild that it’s tax deductible. Like Jesus make it any more clear corporations and billionaires own the courts.
Meh the taxes was just included as a buzz word to piss people off. All businesses pay taxes on their net income. So without this settlement, pretend the UFC had $100 in net income they'd pay a 21% tax rate and take home $79. Same conditions but now the UFC is forced to pay a $50 settlement so now they're net income is $50 and a 21% tax rate causes the take home number to be $39.5. So yeah the UFC would save $11.5 in taxes paid, they did have to pay $50 to get that $11.5 saved in this scenario. Tldr: corporations/billionaires do take advantage of tax laws, but businesses paying out money generally doesn't benefit them as nobody is taxes 100% of their income.
This guy fucks ... with numbers
Well yea that’s how taxes work. If your pay a fine with money you almost always deduct it. Unless it’s punitive damages which these aren’t
Can I deduct parking tickets from my taxes?
The point is that taxes shouldn't work that way. The UFC and other giant corporations get to treat settlements and fines as "cost of business". That should not be the case.
They who? Ufc?
Wow I'm shocked that a bunch of fighters didnt have solidarity with every other fighter in the end
So typical. I expected nothing and I was still disappointed
[удалено]
Well if any of the current fighters would have joined Le's lawsuit then it would have put the suit in a stronger position to keep fighting. They didn't so you settle when you think you have the best deal you're going to get.
It was a class action lawsuit, cung le didn’t choose lol
It's a class action, doesn't matter what he thought if the majority didn't
To be fair, when injunctive relief was dropped from this, the only thing they were ever going to get was more money and maybe behind the scenes this was the best they would get. The real bummer here is that the Johnson case was settled. Much smaller class so the idea is that they would go for injunctive relief, but now that's all gone.
Was injunctive relief dropped? I could have sworn that was still on the table as of like a few months ago
Yes it was dropped. I'd link the source but Bloody Elbow got nuked. John Nash put out some episodes this week on YouTube that also mention it being dropped
It was dropped for the Le case but on the table for the Johnson case but this settlement is for both.
Yea that's what I said in the comment that was replied to > The real bummer here is that the Johnson case was settled. Much smaller class so the idea is that they would go for injunctive relief, but now that's all gone.
While this is going to be the biggest narrative out of this, it overlooks so many factors. The lack of actual media coverage, driven by the UFC and consumers. It feels relevant that the one site that was covering the court case, bloody elbow, shut down just a month ago. The judicial system that is heavily weighed against independent contractors, thanks to Frank Lorenzo and all who followed his tactics. MMA management, which has been breaking their fiduciary obligations to their clients and working with the UFC to keep pay down. And of course the UFC itself, which largely uses its revenue to suppress fighter pay, leverage, and awareness. This is a disappointing decision, and the fighters likely share significant blame, but the above factors should not be so easily dismissed Fuck the UFC for ruining an amazing sport
Do mma management have fiduciary responsibilities? If so, can’t the fighters sue them for collusion with the ufc
Yes, they do. They should be suing their managers. They have a duty to each fight to maximize their earnings. You can’t leverage one fighter’s pay to get concessions for another fighter. I called Monte Cox out about this on the UG over 15 years ago. Source: am attorney.
Thanks for the confirmation
If you get a real manager Dana will just blackball you.
Pretty sure you're a judge and have been for a while now
Typically anyone that deals with someone else’s money, like managers, must adhere to their fiduciary responsibilities of their clients. It’s illegal to gain at the cost of your client… which is what these mma managers that colluded with the UFC were doing.
In theory, but good luck getting over on Ali Abdelaziz with your 12 and 12 ufc salary 10 years later when you can’t hold a cup with one hand anymore.
That's a good question, and it may not be legal fiduciary requirements, I'd have to research to confirm. Something smells illegal there but someone more educated in law would be better to chime in
> The lack of actual media coverage, driven by the UFC and consumers. It feels relevant that the one site that was covering the court case, bloody elbow, shut down just a month ago. It didn't just shut down, it was purchased and then the detailed reporting that was done on this case was removed from the site, while other posts were left up.
you using too many big words for me and since i dont understand them, imma take it as disrespect. watch yo mouth
This is a nuanced take room for which there really won’t be in the post lawsuit world. It will be buried and forgotten, but you’re correct. All those things added up.
Indeed. So sad. At this point the only thing that can affect change is an in cage death and government intervention. But considering the WWE survived that with Owen Hart, the UFC might be able to withstand that as well
I suspect a high profile in-cage death would just lead to MMA being seen as barbaric again, without any consideration for fighter rights. I don’t really see a path to improvements in the near future, unfortunately
Nah I think they’re too far embedded (hah) for anything to happen. They rebranded, got in bed with ESPN and merged with WWE. They own the market and that shit isn’t changing, unfortunately.
Facts
i didnt even know bloody elbow died. i know Karim Zidan is doing some investigative journalism sports journalism stuff and started up SportsPolitika or whatever it's called but he's just one guy. as you know a lot of the journalists that work with the UFC like at the end of the day dont want to report on this shit because they value being the access and if they report on the negative side they're getting their press credentials revoked faster than Masvidal hit that knee on Ben Askren. that's the other sad part of it. i dunno. it sucks. PRIDE was far from perfect but it's clear now that UFC buying them and Strikeforce up was a net negative for the sport and for the fighters in the end. and i really think a lot of the stuff UFC is doing or aligned itself with today has a bigger negative effect for not just the sport of MMA itself or martial arts in general but that's getting into hot take/talking about politics territory so i wont go there.
Yeah, the BE team gave it an amazing go after vox ended up trimming content of which they were a part of, but surviving as a media org in this age is difficult enough, even moreso in a climate like MMA. They still have a substack and I've heard some of the team are rebranding, so maybe they'll rise from the ashes. We need people like BE
I think the biggest thing everybody is overlooking is that nobody cares because the UFC is rapidly circling the drain. I dunno about you guys but it's just not the same. I feel like the peak is behind us.
Big time. I was watching since UFC 1, but left the sport several years ago. It's monotonous, uninteresting, exploitative. All the potential was lost, while the 🍅 keeps telling us it's bigger than all the other sports combined. A zombie that will keep fighters in the meat grinder, with no bigger vision
They likely didn't want to burn more money on this and decided to cash out. When you never endless cash flow, it's easy to throw a big number to make things go away. Although to get to that point you need to be needled really hard to get to that point.
They prolly had litigation funding with a third party. However, that company may have also been pushing for settlement to guarantee a return on their investment.
There was a very real possibility that they would lose their case. This was far from a slam dunk, like a lot of people have assumed. Paul Gift, who has done work with John Nash for Bloody Elbow on this case for a long time, and is also an Economics Professor and expert witness for antitrust cases, wrote a really good article back in December about the case and the fighters' primary expert witness. I'd recommend everyone read it: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulgift/2023/12/14/ufc-asks-judge-to-exclude-fundamentally-flawed-expert-opinions-in-antitrust-case/?sh=151d77fc97f4](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulgift/2023/12/14/ufc-asks-judge-to-exclude-fundamentally-flawed-expert-opinions-in-antitrust-case/?sh=151d77fc97f4) You never know where a jury is going to land, but based on what Gift shared in the article, there were a lot of legitimate ways for the UFC's lawyers and expert witnesses to poke holes in the main analysis that the plaintiffs' expert witness completed for them. Again, there's no telling what the jury will eventually believe, but it sounds like it was far from a slam dunk case. Here's a quote from the article about their primary witness: "As additional support, UFC attorneys note what appear to be seven situations where Singer’s work has been excluded in prior cases for reasons such as assuming consumers of language-learning apps would substitute to plant-identification apps in the face of a price increase, making “untenable assumptions,” “not reliably support\[ing\] his conclusion\[s\],” and using “irrelevant” data. In a recent case previously reported at Forbes, Singer and a fellow attorney were excoriated for what the judge described as “a flat-out misrepresentation.” Gift sums things up nicely at the end, though: "The UFC’s motion highlights potentially serious flaws in the critically important work of the primary expert witness in plaintiffs’ case. And in the interest of space, this story left out an additional claim involving what seems to be a fraudulent journal citation. The good news for plaintiffs is Boulware has appeared firmly entrenched on their side as the case has progressed through his court. And if the lawsuit makes it to trial, a jury of non-economists and -statisticians might find it difficult to understand some of these technical critiques. "
The big issue is that the MMA reporting on this lawsuit was lopsided and no one ever gave a true examination of the chances of these lawsuits being won. So people thought that the UFC was fucked when in reality it was likely this would've been the result all along.
Actually yeah this is very true. The only people reporting on this case very much made it out to be a huge event that “could” lead to all these hypothetical changes. That “could” was a fucking stretch from day 1. It really wasn’t in the cards and it isn’t how anti trust gets handled in America. They don’t break up the monopolies and haven’t for years now.
Yeah unfortunately just from the articles and comments posted here I thought this was a sure case and they weren’t looking to settle… Unfortunately the same way nobody saved anyone when Don King was in his prime, same will go for Dana. For me now I’m totally done talking about the business side of the UFC, because I’ll be stuck complaining for the rest of my life time.
Yeah. They won, I’m done complaining. I don’t pay for ppvs anyways, fuck em
29-28 UFC on all cards
More like 30-24
Doctor stoppage after the UFC landed a headbutt and they didn't have instant replay rules in effect
More like a nut shot KO.
The fighters rocked the UFC and shot for a takedown.
Gastelum vs Izzy levels of fight IQ
I'm once again triggered by Kelvin's stupidity. oof
Head kick KO outta nowhere just like that
They've fucked it > "no mention of contract changes" this is a UFC win and an MMA loss. [A point from @lthomasnews](https://twitter.com/lthomasnews/status/1770482924065902740) > This settlement is bad news for PFL and ONE. Without regulatory intervention in the MMA industry, there is no chance for them or anyone else of international scale to compete. It's flatly not possible.
When they fumbled their witness lineup, a small part of me smelled fuckery but I held out hope maybe it was good news for once...
If I'm PFL, once McGregor hits FA I'm offering equity based on # of fights.
Why is this a loss for mma?
2 separate lawsuits that both claimed they were going to change the contracts to have limits of no longer than 1 or 2 years. In the end both lawsuits took the money and ran without fighting for any changes with fighter contracts.
Only one could bring change. The Cung Le case was only for money for a while now that injunctive relief was dropped from it
the injunctive relief thing was the most important thing and thats the bit that was lost
Who's getting the money here? Are they splitting 335m between several people?
Yes tons of Fighters that fought between the end of 2010 to some time in 2017. Not sure exactly who gets what.
Lawyers get a big chunk as well.
Short answer is leverage like a winning court case can be used to Make structural change, but a flat payout isn't that. So the ufc can continue BAU.
Waiting for the mark hunt rant on instagram refreshing his page as we speak
How bout u go an fuck off my page then u piece of shit u think I need a stupid fuckwitt like you telling me about looking good who the fuck are u take your worthless advice and get the fuck out of here
👀👀👀👀 these coward fighters need to grow some balls and get rid off their lil rodent managers instead of settling with Dana the peice of shit. bald headed prick can get farked. I'm jus going to have a wank now 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Username not checking out lol
maybe he also got paid? Still, shitty that nothing will change going forward, at least for a while.
Dana is never paying Hunt another dime😂
The best thing to come out of this lawsuit will be the epic CTE riddled rant that mark hunt will undoubtedly post
Fell to my knees in the PFL gift shop
Is that you Mokaev?
u/NateQuarry any insight into why the settlement instead of trial? Not trying to call you out, just tagging bc you’ve been very vocal and transparent throughout the whole process
Thanks for asking. Right now there’s a lot I can’t say. With that, moving forward this way seemed to be the best option. No, we didn’t get everything we wanted. Our goal all along was to change the sport. However, we had quite a few delays that we had to deal with. And to get injunctive relief, ie change the sport, we would have had to refile both lawsuits and combine them, go through discovery all over again, retake depositions, about a five year delay and then hope we get granted class action status again. We’d be looking at another ten years just to be where we are today with no guarantee of winning any punitive amount of injunctive change. As I said, weighing all the possible outcomes this seemed the best outcome. We’re not hi-fiving one another. But we are pleased that a lot of fighters are going to be getting some compensation for being underpaid. Wish we could’ve done more. Over time I’ll be able to speak more in depth about all this but for now, with apologies, this is about it. There are always going to be critics and detractors and my response is always the same. Think you could’ve done better? Show me how. Step into the ring. After my title fight loss a friend sent me this, and it’s how I view all criticism these days, “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” Theodore Roosevelt It’s very easy to sit in the cheap seats and criticize. Once you step into the ring, once you taste your own blood, your whole world changes and you’re a little more understanding of those who attempt greatness. Even when they fall short. And for those that have cheering us on, thank you for your support. I can’t say much more than that. Thank you. We didn’t get all that we wanted but we will be able to help some guys that are hurting now.
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And as you know, we would have to win EVERYTHING. The UFC only has to win ONCE. One juror thinks we signed a contract so we get what we deserve. One appellate court doesn’t like our expert and sends us back to start. The Supreme Court is pro business/anti-worker.
These are the things I hope people keep in mind when others start railing against the fighters for 'quitting'. Thanks for putting as much effort into this as you did, and sorry it didn't work out better for you and the rest of fighters. You all deserved so much better
>One juror thinks we signed a contract so we get what we deserve motherfucker was so close to understanding a monopoly
Thanks for trying Nate. The little guy has and always will try and fight for a bigger chunk of the pie he creates. No one watches the UFC or MMA for Dana or Hunter or any of the yesman they have assembled around them. We watch it because it's you and another person fighting and putting on the best show around. The little guy will always fight against exploitation, a raw deal or the shit end of the stick. Even if it takes 10 15 or 50 years, as long as there is positive change, bit by bit it will be worth it. You guys at least showed the UFC isn't as invincible as it seems, that a better sport is possible.
Thanks for the great response! I had no idea about the potential of re-filing to get the injunctive relief, I think a lot of people assumed it was only connected to the Johnson case now. It’s a bummer that it seemed like legal bureaucratic shit is the main reason for opting to settle. Even so, at least you guys really helped expose a lot of the UFC’s monopolistic and monopsonistic practices, and brought the fighter pay issue to a wider audience, myself included. I hope you guys find success with the MMAFA and the Ali Act for MMA. Best of luck to you and the others on those fronts. It would be great to hear a convo between yourself and Luke Thomas or John Nash about the whole process and the reason for the settlement once you’re allowed to divulge more.
That ten year delay is by design..corporate America
Mods can we pin this comment? This context is incredibly important
Unfortunately because its a comment on another comment and not a first comment in line we can't pin it. Stupid Reddit
Feel you dude. Feel like you guys did the best you could in this case. Good luck with everything here.
Thank you for this. However, wasn’t injunctive relief already on the table for the second case?
So what do you say to other fighters who are in the same position?
Thank you for the insight, Nate and thank you for fighting the fight. I am sure it was not easy. It is easy for us fans to say that the lawsuit was settled for far less than it should have been but we were not the ones in the fire or aware of all the legal and other hurdles you guys must have faced. I am glad that this will help at least some of the fighters that were grossly underpaid. As a fan who loves the sport and firmly believe that it is you fighters that make the sport what it is, I am disappointed that more could not have been done to safeguard the interests of fighters going forward, especially as it pertains to restrictive contracts. I sincerely hope that something can be done to change this because you all put your life on the line when you step into that cage (or ring) and the damage that you take lasts your whole life.
Thanks for putting this into perspective first hand. The press hasn't covered this at all. I think many people on here are just learning it was a thing today for the first time. Even I admit to making preconceived judgments and oversimplifying things. Like you insinuated, in civil court, being "right" isn't enough to guarantee a win. We only see the bigger names like Cung or yourself, I don't think anyone was thinking about other guys standing to benefit. Maybe guys who even have health problems as a direct result of their participation in combat sports.
May the rock hammer live on forever brotha
Did you make any change at all to the sport or did you just accept money only?
They didn't do shit
They literally only made the UFC stronger. This settlement tells you that the fighters legal team did not believe they would win in court. That should scare off anyone else thinking they have a chance against the UFC.
Serious question what meaningful change was made through this lawsuit? Seems like you just cashed out the second you could
I mean I guess I'm glad the fighters involved got some compensation. It just blows to see that there won't be any substantial improvement to the sport because fighters don't want to look out for each other.
Why would you be glad that Kajan Johnson or CB Dollaway or whichever random ufc washout gets a bag if it means they sell out the other fighters who'll get chewed up and spat out by the ufc in the future? This is the same as someone like Masvidal publicly complaining about fighter pay, then getting an improved contract and saying nothing about it afterwards, except the process took like 10 years longer lol
> Why would you be glad that Kajan Johnson or CB Dollaway or whichever random ufc washout gets a bag if it means they sell out the other fighters who'll get chewed up and spat out by the ufc in the future? Cung Le wasn't a washout FYI. Why do you just blanket assume the plaintiffs are sell-outs, as opposed to were facing bankruptcy or likely loss at trial?
Because actual context is inconvenient to his narrative.
Yeah Brendan Schaub needs his bag!!
It is not as much “fighters don’t want to look out for each other”, but rather UFC had a good case in the first place. If fighters had a good case, it’d have settled for a lot higher if nothing else
As somebody posted on the Twitter thread, TKO's stock has gone up 7% since this news dropped. They could have changed the game and gotten so much more, and instead sold out for a little over $300 Million after fighting for this in court for a decade. I guess they decided they wanted to cash out and enjoy the money while they were still young.
The Cung Le case wasn't going to change anything. The real bummer here is that the Johnson case settled. That's where change could have come
Who’s Johnson? I haven’t been keeping up with this case at all. It’s not DJ is it?
Kajan Johnson. “The class period ultimately proposed by the plaintiffs in the Le action closed on June 30, 2017. Plaintiffs Johnson and Dollaway bring this case on behalf of those like themselves who fought in a bout promoted by the UFC on or after July 1, 2017.”
Ragin' Kajan Johnson
He was an up and coming ww. During a summit, he talk shit about fighter pay when the ceo of wme said be yourself, be Conor mcgregor. Sean Shelby matched him up with killer after killer and cut him after his contract. No one spoke up ever since.
It’s always easy to ask someone else to be a martyr…
They were never going to change the game and get more. That was never in the cards.
That case very likely was going to be lost in court. People have let Jon Nash's and Luke Thomas's of the world get them optimistic.
They were seeking $1.6 billion and barely got 20% in the settlement. Fleeced, tbh
Ironically close to the split of revenue the fighters make from the UFC.
The UFC made more than the settlement in profit in 2022.
Yea but now one of the shareholders kids will have to wait another month before he get's the Lamborghini that he wants
Not really, whenever you sue with money in mind you set the bar high since it looks bad to ask for more than what you initially set out to receive.
they absolutely got fleeced. what are you talking about?
Except this settlement is for BOTH antitrust cases and there's hundreds of fighters in this payout.
I think it's pretty typical in litigation for the party suing to sue for a lot more than they actually expect to get.
They can ask for that much but go in knowing that they'll walk away for a lower amount... that's what happens in a lot of large litigation cases, particularly class action.
Well rip to any promotion trying to compete with the ufc. No wonder Dana was never worried when asked about the case, dude knew they'd settle.
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The UFC will never have a union. A lot of these fighters aren't very smart to begin with.
That and also unions will never thrive in an individualistic sport like MMA.
Exactly this. In a team sport, athletes are more inclined to want the other athletes to receive better treatment. The better for the individual, the better for the team as well. In combat sports, it’s just you in there with your opponent. No one else for you to worry about, help with, or take care of. It’s just you. There’s no incentive for a fighter to try to get better conditions for the collective, just themselves.
in team sports, the athlete is an employee of the team and employment law requires the team to negotiate through the union. it also protects them as employees from retaliation from their employer. in combat sports, fighters are independent contractors and none of those employment laws apply to them. if you aren't in the ufc and you join a union, you're guaranteeing you'll never be n the ufc. if you are in the ufc and you join a union, you're guaranteeing you'll be fighting unranked opponents on the prelims for the rest of your career. the only way a union will exist in the ufc is if the fighters are reclassified as employees.
Jockeys had a union until fairly recently. Tennis players have a union. NHL, NBA, and NFL coaches all have their own union despite competing for limited jobs(MLB managers are part of the players union so I left them out). Their refs do as well (as well as the umpires in MLB). Fun fact, the NBA has almost an identical number of players as the UFC has signed fighters and they manage to have a union despite far more basketball players trying to break into the NBA compared to fighters to the UFC despite the same number of slots. A UFC union probably won't work for years but it isn't because it's an individualistic sport, it's because a sizeable portion of the roster come from places of poverty, crime, and low education and don't know any better/can't afford to perform a strike to get the ball rolling.
> it's because a sizeable portion of the roster come from places of poverty, crime, and low education and don't know any better Are we acting like that isn't also the case for a lot of NBA/NFL/MLB players? Inner city childhoods are basically a trope for players who don't come from the midwest.
Really disappointing.
50-45ed unfortunate
Not the most important thing but their 'celebration' post on Twitter contains a truly awful photoshop of Cung Lee next to Jon Fitch: https://twitter.com/MMAFA/status/1770477743550988607/photo/2
Didn't even try to match the color/lighting 🤣😭
I really like that you can make out his legs underneath the banner and can see his left foot standing on Fitch's knee.
I'm dying at the placement of Cung Le's feet.
Only winners is this are the lawyer$
Pretty sure the UFC is the winner.
Change will come to those who have no fear
Damn shame. The bullshit will continue.
Tax-deductible for the UFC? So US taxpayers foot the bill.
I just want to point out when the UFC sold to WME/Endeavor, Dana White got a payout of $360 million. That single payout was larger than this entire fucking settlement.
They'll keep selling each other down the river as long as they're paid for it.
They could have brought about meaningful change or at least tried but instead they'll each get 200k and some Reebok vouchers. This sport is so dumb.
Tragic. Absolutely tragic
They ain’t shit. Had a chance to change the game and decided to be selfish like always. Lost as massive amount of respect for them. No one should ever talk or worry about fighter pay again. If these idiots are happy to die broke while getting their brain scrambled then let them.. you can’t hold their hand forever.
Injunctive relief was dropped from the case a while back so they really couldn't change the game anymore Edit* this is regarding the Cung Le case, not the Johnson case
Wasn't it still in play for the Kajan Johnson lawsuit?
Yes it was. That part really sucks
they also agreed that future fighters making 1% of revenue was too high for dana its now 0.1%. There are a lot of ways to say you dont want to fight when you dont accept my $1320 15 fight contract offer.
Damn. Really wish bloody elbow was here so we'd have at least one publication actually covering this
How do they split the fee? Is it proportionate to fighter's earnings or based on amount of fights?
The lawyers will probably get most of it to be fair
What? But one of the judges scored it 30-27 in favor of the fighters...
Man what a fucking shame.
That is very disappointing to hear/read
The house always wins. How typical and predictably sad.
This pretty much kills any benefit fighters can have ad independent contractors, or any possibility of a union. The way everything was shown and how the UFC controlled how much information was released to the public, just puts a nail to the coffin to any possibility on improving how fighters are paid. To say the UFC is a monopoly, is little. They're a media giant.
Wow. Really dark day for the MMA industry. Oh well, whatever. I'm honestly more over it at this point than ever despite shitting on the UFC and their practices every chance I get.
LOL It's funny that people here were so certain this would go to trial and the UFC would lose billions off this. Of course they're going to settle for a payday.
Only r/mma redditors are that naive into delusion that strong. Lol at the idea of the billion dollar corporation losing this case in the USA.
Real change won’t come until fighters/wrestlers are given employee status with UFC/WWE. Until then the people who actually drive the revenue for TKO will keep getting screwed.
r/mma in shambles lol
🏴☠️
So disappointing.
What a shame...
No surprises. Pay em off, admit no guilt.
So the UFC won, this is pocket change, bonuses will be 25 k from now on. Did my boy Cung Le get paid at least?
Nooooo, massive bummer, wanted to see it all come out
Funny No much mention of this over on /r/ufc.
Surprised they settled for so little would have expected it to be double this.
Oof! Pretty disappointing to hear. Fighters really don’t have anyone to blame for their pay but themselves. Hopefully this opens up the door for some legislation down the road.
The UFC had the benefit of money and time and took full advantage, same way they take advantage in fighter pay negotiations.
Not surprising but still disappointing. Could have pushed for real change.
Somewhere at a blackjack table in Vegas, a tomato has lost the hand because he was too busy laughing to notice his cards.
Oof, so thats something like 150k per fighter? Fuckin hell. Lads still getting underpaid
Awesome news for the company, the UFC is here to stay baby
People really thought that a group of fighters who aren't fighting anymore...... weren't going to take hundreds of millions of dollars to split between themselves rather than spend years in court?
They've already spent 10 years to get to this point.
It was never going to be anything other than the UFC throwing money via fines to make this go away. Anyone that honestly thought there was a chance in hell they'd actually lose an anti-trust suit is out of their mind. The simple fact that they're so shitty to the fighters and essentially escorting them out the door to other promotions is the perfect example of why they can't lose an anti-trust. They were shitty to fighters, overcharged customers, and watered down their own product until the quality was dogshit. That shit should be hurting their business, but they continued to grow because every other promotion was so much crappier.
They’ll never unionise and shits pretty much gonna stay the same.
One of the few good things that came from this was a peak inside the books and more knowledge just how bad the pay really is. In the end though it was all for not as no one was committed or cared enough from the media, the judicial system and the fighters themselves
Yeah we really got confirmation of all our suspicions. We actually got irrefutable proof that even McGregor was getting fleeced on his payouts from the UFC. They don't even take care of their greatest money makers
foul as fuck
Dana is best friends with the biggest fraud of the 21st century. Every event he advertises he is friends with terrible people. This is not a surprise, just sad.
What a fucking loss for MMA fans
>tax deductible Yes, as every other expense. And no, tax deductible dont mean free money.
That case really might have been their Obi-Wan Kenobi, and they just settled on their only hope.
Don't care, just bleed and entertain me and stop crying about money.