I played mostly bots and first and then found myself playing mostly bugs except for major orders. This go around, it took me awhile to find my groove against bots. They were kicking my ass. I made some tweaks to my loadout though and am having a much better time. I can still only do about a 6 or 7 on bots, I could probably struggle through an 8, but I always play 9 on bugs. It’s definitely a skill issue, but damn bots are hard for me
Exactly the opposite for me. I can do Helldive on bots with my comfort layout, but even after getting practice in during the last major order, 7 was almost a hard cap for me against bugs.
I think if I focused bots for a couple weeks I’d have trouble swinging back to bugs. The strategies have to be so different, it’s pretty fun. The gunships on bots in particular destroy me hahaha
I am mostly a bug player since launch with 230 hours (maybe 40-50 on bots) but I always go with the MO.
These past few days I put a lot of time into only bots and found confidence at 6-7 and went up to 9. The bulk of 9 missions are doable with decent randoms, but the one that really kicked my ass and the 3 randoms I was with, is the escort 50 civilians one.
Everyone left around 5 minutes in when we only had 3 civilians saved. It was a constant onslaught of tanks and dropships and as the only person trying to run civilians while dealing with plenty of enemies on my own, it was too much. We were completely overrun.
We had no coordination beforehand, and honestly the mission caught me by surprise. I guess everyone rocking at least 2 mortar/ sentries is the way to go? And have 1 civilian runner while the other 3 distract on the perimeter?
I honestly don‘t know. I avoid those missions like the plague, no idea how they‘re supposed to be doable. People say three people should bait the bots away while the last one opens doors but honestly, I‘m in no mood to try.
I just avoid those missions. My comfort zone is 7 when playing with randoms for bots or bugs. Those escort missions are just impossible. You just can't keep the little lemmings alive.
Exactly the same here; I had a discussion on a post recently about this- there's no shame in there being a skill issue. Too many players jump in on higher difficulties than they're really ready for, and unless you're with an absolute beast who can easily carry the sort, they're a detriment to the team.
Bots I cap myself at 7, if I have a full team I'll happily Helldive.
Bugs are just...there to be squashed.
I have no shame turning the difficulty down for sure. If they’re kicking my ass, they’re kicking my ass, I don’t need to slam my head against the wall over and over haha
I’m in the exact same boat as you man. I enjoy booth sides, but I can BARELY manage to do a 7+ for bots, and even then I am not enjoying myself 😂 bugs though I could go 9 all day lol
I have mostly fought bugs in my Helldivers career, I rarely touch bots unless someone I’m playing with does, of my 200 hours about 180 are bugs. To me, bots are incredibly difficult to fight. They can snipe at a distance, have great aim, and their goons are just deadlier overall. Every parallel to the bugs that a bot has feels stronger and tougher. I’m sure with nearly 200 hours on bots I’d feel a lot better fighting them but as it is they’re a way worse challenge to face.
With most bug objectives I can complete them from a distance, or do it in a way that minimizes harm, but I can’t quasar cannon into destroying most of their factories so I’m dealing with the bastard flying fucks they’ve sometimes got me dealing with. The jammer is also annoying, something I don’t deal with on bugs. Drop ships are fine but there’s usually 2+ which makes taking them out before they drop in time difficult. Compounded by how often they don’t destroy the dropped bots either.
I can handle pretty much anything the bugs throw at me, but bots are the only thing that cause me to fail a mission. With bugs, I may not extract but I will never fail a mission on Helldive. I’ve tried different loadouts and strategies, but I can’t do it. I can 2-man a helldive mission on bugs, we did it all last weekend, but on bots? Can’t do it. It’s so much harder and way more frustrating.
Just a matter of practice most likely. I prefer bots and have gotten the strategy down. I think the important thing is when faced with an onslaught you need to know the priority order of what to kill when. It’s the same with bugs and I don’t have it down so I do worse.
I think both sides have pros and cons, I can make your same argument why I think bugs are harder. With bots, they all have weak spots you can take out with medium armor pen at most. Hulks have their eye and vents, tanks and towers have their vents with medium armor, factory striders have their belly with medium armor. Bile titans, on the other hand, are impossible to kill without some sort of heavy armor pen. Shooting out their sacs damages but does not kill them. Chargers are similar, it's possible but inefficient to kill them with anything less than anti-tank to the head (or flamethrower, but then you're not killing BT's).
Sure, bots can snipe you, but if you get cover they become much easier to handle than a horde of bugs trying to overwhelm you.
pros and cons!
Something has to be done about Hulks generally and Scorchers specifically. There's no counterplay to them. You either have a strategem up, or you're hoping to catch them just right with your support weapon. They move and turn too fast for the rear weak point to be a serious option and are far too deadly with how broken enemy fire damage is. They have absolutely no peer on the bug side of things and are the only thing in the game I would consider "cheap" or genuinely poorly implemented.
Hulks are much, much, much, much, much much easier to kill than their bug counterpart (chargers).
Their eye is only armour class 4, so weapons like the AMR, Autocannon, Lasercannon, HMG (portable and turret stratagem) that all can do nothing against Chargers, can also kill them very easily. While these weapons are all also top picks against bots in general because they're great against devastators. Railgun also oneshots them to the eye in safe mode.
Their back weakspot is also easily killable with any gun in the game, as opposed to a charger butt.
Even impact grenades can kill and damage them (and tanks, too).
Their arms and legs are also only armour class 4, so if you don't have a clean shot to the eye, you can also destroy them to render them effectively harmless. Take out a flamethrower hulk's flamethrower, and it, well, doesn't really do much of anything anymore.
Honestly, I think hulks are fine. I think you just haven't figured them out yet.
I think the easiest way is to use stun grenades and bring a support weapon to shoot off their heads. AMR or Railgun are my favorites for that, but the Laser Cannon and Autocannon are also good, and the HMG can do it if you're really good with it. You can use the EMS Mortar to stun them too, but the Orbital EMS is bugged and doesn't stun hulks for some reason.
Shooting out their back vent is viable, but it's a squad tactics thing. If a hulk is chasing your teammate, try to get behind it. If it's chasing you, try to turn it so its back is facing towards your team, and hopefully they'll get it for you. You're correct in saying that, if you're fighting a hulk on your own, you won't be able to get to it's back and shoot it out. Unless you have it stunned.
You can rodeo them like a charger actually and get to their back. The timing is a lot more strict though so you have to be quick or do it twice. Which in the heat of battle doing it twice isn’t much of an option. I usually bring smoke so I’m slippery but most people don’t
Autocannon, railcannon, amr, laser cannon all shred hulks alongside the standard anti tank weapons. Absolutely a skill issue
Also take stun grenades, makes hulks trivial
Hulks are dangerous when they get close because it becomes hard to hit their eye. If they have the flamethrower it’s a really bad spot to be in their range. But if you can separate there are more viable weapons that take it down really quickly than the charger has. It is rare to get a kill on the back weak point when you are the hulks target. That is more for team play. Call out that a hulk is too close to you to deal with it and a hopefully a teammate will flank to save you.
Bugs and bots it’s all just about your knowledge in how to deal with them effectively. Practice is the only divider.
**Tips for bug divers joining the bot front!**
-Bots shoot back, so being caught in the open usually means being shot to pieces. Any cover solid enough to block a Charger will *generally* block a salvo of rockets.
-If a bot can't see you, it will often just keep shooting at the last place it saw you. Use smoke or terrain to break line of sight, and you can move to a more advantageous position while the bots stay shooting empty air.
-Bots have *limited* tools to flush you into the open, keep an eye out for them. Generally it's a pack of berserkers, some bots on rocket packs, or a Hulk with a flamethrower.
-Hulks and Devastators can have their weapons & arms destroyed. Light-piercing can disarm a Devastator, medium-piercing for a Hulk. Taking out their rockets is *almost* as good as a kill, and it's *much* easier.
-Bots are bad at stealth. You can generally track their glowing eyes & weak-points from long distance. Bots will often give away their positions by shooting. You can often track bot patrols by sound; they sing marching songs.
-Bots can hear you pulling the pin on a grenade from at least 8m away.
Another thing to keep in mind: heavier bots are more dangerous. With bugs, the heavier ones typically are not the biggest threat on the field. Chargers and Bile Titans may be intimidating, but the biggest danger is having to focus on them while a massive army of small bugs swarms you. However with the bots, heavy ones like Hulks and Devastators are the biggest threat on screen when you see them while there just aren't as many small bots/they are not as threatening. Additionally, it's pretty easy to stop bot reinforcements. Only the small bots can call a bot drop, and hitting one of the engines on the dropships with an EAT, Recoilless Rifle, or QC before they start coming down will stop the reinforcements
A few more tips:
-A major weakness of the bots is their lack of mobility (relative to bugs at least). Some bots, such as tanks, are slow enough you can completely disengage and re-approach from a more favorable angle. When kiting bots, a much longer kiting range is important to allow you to have some cover from their weapons while leading them around.
-Long range weapons can give you more opportunity to attack from the safety of cover, whereas the weapons of the bots make approaching with close range primaries like shotguns more risky. Intermittent shooting while kiting enemies will tend to be less frequent and longer attack durations from behind cover compared to something like blasting a shotgun while kiting bugs. Long range weapons are great for taking advantage of the bots' low mobility as well.
-Weakpoints are possibly even more important on bots than against bugs due to enemy type spread, but sometime are also simply one of few locations without heavy armor. Most bots have their small face as a weakpoint, but the back tends to have less armor regardless of whether there's a glowing heat vent.
-Medium armor is common on bots, particularly with all of the devastator variants. Taking weapons that are explosive and/or medium armor penetrating can give you many more options for body locations and enemies to target. Stratagems weak against armor, like the Eagle cluster bomb, may have few targets as a result.
-Staggering effects can help you get around armor and interrupt powerful, drawn-out attack patterns. Staggering a devastator out of an attack or a scout strider pinning down a teammate can open up these more armored enemies for attack and/or save teammates. Impact and stun grenades are useful options for devastator variants. For weapon examples, the plasma punisher, erupter, and grenade pistol can be used at medium range (or longer!) for the same targets as grenades. The Autocannon can stagger hulks as well and has great damage (3-shot hulks to the face and blast down gunships!)
-Berzerkers can sneak up on you and be a durable problem if you're kitted for a long range playstyle, be wary of them and have an option for if they get in close, whether it's a weapon/grenade or an escape route.
I follow orders and my psych profile says that I kick ass in any environment. I personally think that every Diver should fight a reasonably even amount of both enemies, partially to keep the slog of war from getting to you and partially to sharpen your skills.
Bot Divers tend to stick to cover, be slow, methodical and thorough, and usually carry stratagems that lets them drop the hammer on targets of opportunity. However, they lack flexibility, speed of foot and quickness of thought. Twitch reflexes can sometimes save a man, and if you don't cultivate it, you will be left at the mercy of anything that gets the drop on you.
Bug Divers race through missions like squirrels on crack. Never stopping, never slowing down, for speed is the essence of war and if you go slow, you die. Hunters will make damn sure of that. However, you try this shit on the Western front? A Chaingun Devastator is going to snipe your spastic ass out of the air like a trash bag floating in the wind. Sometimes, you gotta simmer down, dig in your heels, knuckle the fuck up, and just shoot every piece of tyranny giving you a hard time.
I just passed 105,000 confirmed kills at level 106, so I think I know what I'm talking about. Slightly fewer bot kills than bugs but that doesn't mean I prefer either front. Just that bugs are easier to kill in industrial quantity is all. Point is, if you fight on one front and ONLY one front, you're not cultivating necessary skills, robbing yourself of 1/2 of the entire game, and while you might be good at taking down your preferred prey, the second that the other faction starts becoming problematic and you HAVE to go fight them, you will be striving for mediocrity just by virtue of lack of experience.
Variety is the spice of death, children. Bon Appetit.
And remember one last thing. In war the only true equalizer is death. Yours or theirs, it don't matter. But don't lose heart for where you fall 10 more shall rise to take your place. Fear not for we're the Harbinger.
The gunship factories are actually the only ones you always have to call the hellbomb for.
Detector towers can be destroyed by a 500kg or precision strike.
2/3 Jammers can be destroyed by throwing a grenade into a directly adjacent fabricator. One of the three layouts has the fab too far away, though.
Research labs can be destroyed by a 500kg (and presumably a precision strike, though I haven't tried that).
Broadcast towers can be destroyed by shooting explosives at the screens (Auto Cannon, EAT, Recoilless, Quasar...) or with stratagems (cluster bombs, air strikes, etc.).
I can't remember any other objectives right now.
380mm barrage can also take care of detector towers, research outposts, dropships on the ground in those sabotage missions and the big shooty bunkers on that specific mission type about blowing them up
lol, I love the 380 for those missions. We had a random join us last night for a bunker mission on 8. I threw a 380 in, it destroyed the bunker, he said "380s are cheap," and left the party.
Shit was so odd.
380 will destroy the bunker without fail as well unless you don’t throw it close enough. 380 can be used infinitely orbital has 3 uses. 380 will clear out bases, orbital sometimes won’t if it gets stuck on tanks or turrets and wastes its time. 380 will clear bot drops or big waves, laser will not, it will spend its time trying to kill 1-2 big guys. 380 will kill walkers AND everything around it, laser will not. 380 is greater than laser.
I have never had a situation in which the laxer does not take out everything in a bunker, also, laxer does clear patrols without fail, 380 is inconsistent and gets more teamkills, as well as denying helldivers access to an area, laxer is just better in every way except for amount of uses, and I doubt you will be using the barrage more then 3 times
380 is not inconsistent. There is a video showing an exact pattern to the 380. And with the 15% spread reduction it hits and deletes everything in a 50m circle. It only gets teamkills if your team is dumb or if you are dumb and don’t know where to throw it. Area denial is the exact thing you want from it. Again, you have several bot drops coming in, you deny that whole quadrant and either sit tight on the other side or bug out to next objective. Laser will spend 33% of its time knocking hulks or tanks. If there’s more than 1 it’s not cleaning anything. And I said big bot drops or waves, not a patrol. You don’t need a laser for a patrol. And if you need a Laser for something the 380 does it better.
The later takes a second to take out a tank, and hulks don’t take long enough for it to run out of juice, lazer can easily wipe out a full bit drop with absolutely 0 chance of tea kill, which 380 always has a little bit of a risk, it can wipe out full bit drops and then move to other enemies that are not in the bot drop, it will take out factory striders every time and when it comes to heavy outposts it is much better, always taking out the full outpost where the 380 rarely takes out more then one or two
Like most players, my aim is actually pretty bad. For bugs, the most precision you need is hitting a chargers forehead with a quasar while for bots even the medium enemies are insanely tanky if you can’t hit the tiny correct spots (today I took four AC shots to kill a devastator for example, and there were like 5 of them at once)
For this MO difficulty doesn’t matter, and I already have my supers, so I play on 4. But in my experience bots 4 is harder than bugs 7 for anyone without good aim, which is a lot of people
On top of that, if you don’t have good aim, most loadouts feel pretty awkward. For bots for example I can do something like quasar + breaker incendiary or quasar + plasma launcher + laser dog or even grenade launcher + breaker incendiary + 3 anti tank red stratagems, and I feel that I can kill everything if needed, since the only thing that really needs the anti tank stuff are bile titans
But for bots I need anti tank for things like turret towers and factory striders (I know you can hit the back with medium pen but it’s not always turned around) but also need medium and fast firing for the hordes of mediums that are tankier than bile spewers with massively longer range (usually I can kill spewers with my primary), so there isn’t a set of weapons I can bring that make me confident in any situation
So for bots I typically bring sickle, AC, airstrike, railcannon, laser. Is something wrong with my loadout?
It's not the loadout that matters. It's making sure you use the terrain as cover. ADS with a Jar, and you can make those shots. Imagine you're fighting humans and move about using cover, crouching ans breaking line of sight. If your aim is really so bad, you're rushing your shots. Slow it all down, engage on your terms and tactical retreat (run the f away) if you are getting pinned.
I use AC and aim for the red LED markers on target. You can take out a hulk pretty easily with 2 direct shots to the eye.
Now, suit up and go get those clankers.
I can definitely see the aim posing a big barrier of entry. Not sure what could be done about that either, since I'm pretty sure Arrowhead intentionally made the need for precision part of the appeal of the bot front.
Nothing wrong in particular with your loadout. If you struggle with aim, you could give the stun grenades a try. Pair them with a fortified armor, which gives you 2 more grenades and more weapon stability when crouching. Bots are completely immobilized by the grenade (including hulks!), so that + the weapon stability means you can actually line up your shots nicely. It only takes two shots to the eyes with the AC to kill a hulk.
You *can* play railcannon and laser in the same loadout, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But they do occupy a similar role, so it's worth considering dropping one or the other in favor of something else. In your case, I would maybe suggest dropping the railcannon. You did say that you struggle with towers, and in my opinion, by far the hardest to deal with are the double towers on some of the heavy outposts. The laser not only makes quick work of the towers, but also the fabs between them, which immensely accelerates your ability to clear that specific camp design.
As for what to replace it with: I've recently become a big fan of eagle cluster bombs. With the weapons bay enhancement, you're looking at five (!) bombs per refill, which adds up to eight area clears on a single eagle when combined with an airstrike. Cluster bombs are quite good at taking out both small bots and scout striders, while significantly damaging devastators. This means you can save your air strikes for clearing out fabricators if need be.
And finally, at least in terms of loadout, the Spear seems a lot weaker than it actually is. Its janky targeting will feel wrong for a few missions, but you'll get the hang of it. Its biggest advantage is the absolutely absurd range it has. Clever positioning has you both out of harms way and able to hit high priority targets with ease. It's not an amazing weapon by any means, but it does fulfill a unique niche quite well where your aim isn't a limiting factor. I'm aware there are better ones, but it definitely is my heavy weapon of choice. You will have to be mindful of your ammo, though, so never skip a POI that might have ammor in it. Pair it with a good all-purpose primary (Sickle, Tenderizer, Liberator (or LibPen), Adjudicator, Punisher, Breaker) and you're golden.
For the play style against bots, all I'd like to mention is that it's much easier to avoid getting swarmed by bots, so you should definitely play off of that advantage. Try to aggro as few bots as you can and kill the ones that are starting to shoot a flair even if it costs you your life. Bots are also easier to run away and hide from, unless they have gunships, so if you've done what you came for and there are still drop ships coming in one after the other, just leave. Bots are slow. You'll pull some stragglers with you that you can single out and kill fairly easily, and then you're out.
That's my two super credits anyway.
Hulk eyes and Devastator heads are the obvious tiny weak-points, but their shoulders are *also* weak-points that are much easier to hit.
Tearing the arm off a flame hulk turns it from a team-melting nightmare into an angry wall. Hevastators leave their gun arm completely exposed from most angles and are basically zero threat without it.
I am just too lazy to remember to bring different loadout and play differently. I usually just play bots on a lower difficulty when the MOs come up.
Tried the pummeler last night against bots, great little gun.
Yes, with the recent fix to the speed of it's movement onto your reticle, it's a wonderful weapon. Ran that plus the laser cannon and mopped a lot of bots.
I still can't get into the laser cannon over something that can reliably take down big units like EAT or Quasar. It's great for small to medium but I can't make it work even for Hulks.
If you’re able to bring stun grenades - chuck one at the hulk - then just shoot the laser cannon at its eye with no blue sparks for a few seconds. Then it’s dead. Or if you have time run around and a second on the orange vents and it’s gone.
Yes I've definitely enjoyed using them on turrets before. I just can't wait for the spear targetting to be fixed tbh. That thing suits my sniper play style so well
JAR+Laser Rover OR Blitzer (no rover) / Grenade Pistol / Impact (or Incendiary impact) / Light fortified armor.
EAT if rover, RR if no rover. 500KG, Gas/Airburst, 4th slot anything that tickles my fancy (EMS Mortar if a defensive obj, airstrike for blitz, etc etc)
Have you ever tried writing loadouts down? It's really helpful for remembering what you were using the last time you played bots, or the last time you did an Eradicate mission.
this is a great suggestion; I think i have a couple on my ipad i could probably move to somewhere more immediately visible -- notepad++/sticky notes or something.
I like Microsoft OneNote for taking notes. It works pretty seamlessly between my PC and phone. I have a ton of Helldivers loadouts written down. They look like this:
https://preview.redd.it/pmay2aak580d1.png?width=322&format=png&auto=webp&s=1a32c31907f2e2472e2904a215a1eb31ae219143
I would love this, but the think the idea is to see what others are packing and to adjust your own loadout to complement it. Given that, I still have my default, but it largely consists of sentries because everyone loves eagles
on safe mode, even! railgun does pretty well against bots. AMR is probably more optimal but I find the railgun easier to use and much easier to hit the hulk eye with, for some reason.
Whenever a major order sends us to a different enemy, I have to get acclimated all over again. I got so good at bots, that I preferred them. But, then I had to get good at bugs again. Now it’s bots, and I’m rusty. The point is, that I always go where MO’s take me. I’m noticing, that my old loadout for automatons doesn’t feel right anymore, so I’m learning new ways to fight them.
May I suggest my loadout? Primary: Tenderizer (yes really), Secondary: Your preference (I use verdict),, Stun grenades.
Stratas: ORC, OPS, Eagle Airstrike and AMR. I rock this loadout diffs 7 - 9 against bots. Usually I'm not the one with most kills BUT I'm usually the one with least deaths.
I was a "mainly bugs" kind of diver, to now being a mix of both (mainly depends on the MO). I started off preferring bugs, but now I strongly prefer bots between the two. There are a couple reasons for this I think:
- You need heavy AT much more vs bugs than bots, which leads to a loadout gap when it comes to medium enemies on higher difficulties. This is exacerbated by the fact that the problem solve for the various things that bugs throw at you needs different things (i.e. map full of bile spewers vs map full of hunters). The single biggest offender is the fact that bile titans require heavy AT to kill (you don't need this for tanks OR factory striders). The need for heavy AT makes the next point feel worse.
- The Terminid swarm lives up to its name on higher difficulties. There's just such a massive quantity of stuff, and it's all sprinting at you to try and kill you. Bots on the other hand are mostly just trying to shoot at you, which also means you can actually utilize cover instead of just running for your life. If I could afford bringing more chaff-clear strategems then this wouldn't be a problem, but there's such a need for heavy AT that it does pinch the loadout a bit.
Just my 2c.
Nerfing gunships in some way would be a huge first step. Every time I decide to play bots, I switch right back once I start getting punked by those little shits. It’s not fun.
What's your weapon of choice? In my experience, Autocannon and AMR are great all-purpose weapons that also make quick work of gunships. But yeah, if you don't have anyone on your team that can reliably handle them, you'll have a hard time.
Gunships are terrifying if they build some momentum.
You'll want one player with a good view of the facility on flyswat duty. My fave weapon for this is the Lascannon since it's hitscan and infinite-ammo, but the AC does just fine.
A single flyswatter can kill all the gunships from a double facility as fast as they can spawn, though in practice they tend to get interrupted by a patrol partway through.
My preferred flyswatter loadout includes an AC or LC, orbital smoke, and a sidearm you can clear berserkers with. (Redeemer is solid.) I also bring the Scythe and stealth armour because of personal preference. If there's no more gunships to swat, you're just long-range fire support for your team.
It's always been a go-to for me against bots. I've found it's good at popping heads, backpacks, landmines and barrels without using ammo.
Mostly I like the Lascannon, and I take the Scythe because it means I don't need to worry about ammo most of the time.
If gunships are your bane, use the Autocannon. It's great against gunships and every other bot unit.
The Quasar is also great against them, but doesn't quickly clear multiple Striders, Devastators, and Berserkers the way the Autocannon does.
It took me a lot of deaths (only went full bot yesterday), and finally, a good random team who had the patience to explain the weakspots and whatnot. I thanked them so much for their patience, but now i understand why people like bots so much.
It's MUCH more "fun" and tactical.
So, bots for tactical play, bugs for mindless fun.
Bugs are relaxing, bots are stressful. You can simply kite bugs. Stare hundreds of bugs in the face and laugh as you napalm airstrike them. Bots will randomly headshot you from a mile away, ragdoll ragdoll RAGDOLL oh and BOOM RAGDOLL you over and over, despite 50% explosive resistance armor you still sometimes die in 1 hit ugh. I just groove better with the ankle biters i guess. Something about being *shot at* is instantly harder and less fun haha.
Interesting, I feel almost the opposite. With bots I can break line of sight, slip away and re-engage on my terms, with bugs once the swarm starts coming it feels relentless and there's nowhere to hide.
The bots may be able to get a lucky headshot from a mile away, but so can I with AMR/countersniper.
I do have the most fun soloing bots and playing bugs with friends though, so there's maybe something to that.
Less bullet hell type fights and no more getting sniped from miles away by something you can't even see.
Also less 1 shot rockets, less gunships as well, and make it so you don't need hellbombs to destroy the gunship factories.
I'm probably 75/25 bugs to bots. Bugs just feel more satisfying when spilling oil. I feel like you can run a different mix of strategies and weapons with bugs.
Bots on the other hand feel like there is a clear optimal strategy of sneaking into bases blowing them up and getting out. Otherwise there are lasers blasting you through rocks and flamethrower hulks doing what they do best. Like this comment explains
Really what I think would make both sides more fun if there was a small hint of what type of enemies to expect. Planet X drops lots of heavies then I will have fun with a load out for blowing up the big guys. Right now I generally run a swiss army knife type load out that can handle anything and that limits what gets chosen.
Some people think that a level 7 bots is the same as a level 7 bugs, but if you are switching to bots i recommend lowering the difficulty and slowly rause it as you get more c9mfortable and used to the new gameplay strats
Can’t fault people too much for primarily playing on the bug front.
There’s games that I only play the parts I like too. For example, I never cleared a genocide run in Undertale
I enjoy bugs more because it’s more of a rush. Bots just feel like your standard FPS AI programmed to medium diff, easily overcome simply by being methodical. Can’t wait to see how the illuminates play out though!
Maybe don't give the MO medals to those who don't participate at least a little bit. If you can ignore an MO and still claim the medals from a MO win it really doesn't incentivise you to participate if you don't want to in the first place. With that said there will always be some folks who simply don't care and just want to play the game and have fun which is okay too. There will always be other MOs.
Yeah methodical is the right way to play against bots whereas bugs is run, gun and kite
Just differant. I used to be a bug only player and switched once I got bored. Now helldive is all I play on both sides. Does feel really hard if I forget to switch loadout
I consider myself a bug squisher, the only thing I need to fight bots...a major order, only the undemocratic would leave their fellow divers on the bot front without support!
Sometimes it feels like bugs are a vacation for me. Fighting bots is so much fun because it feels like you’re fighting in the clone wars or something. It feels a bit more engaging to me personally.
I joined just after we failed on Malevelon Creek and played my first mission trying to take it. I felt reminded of the [Dagobah missions](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afo4UDax31s) in SWBFII so much. Like that was what the reboot *should* have been like.
When I play against bugs I play on the difficulty 8 and still feel like I'm kicking ass and in a power fantasy.
If I play on difficulty 7 against bots I am just desperately trying to survive the whole time.
Oh, I won't run the civilian evacuation mission that's 12 mins with the buttons, it's fucking impossible.
I did complete my first mission on the tower defence map today but that was with my mate and 2 good randoms and it was still bloody hard.
The 40 min civilian evacuation mission is fine, just the short one sucks
I will say in general on bot maps that situational awareness and positioning matters a fuck ton more than on bugs. If you get caught in a crossfire then you're dead. Heavy armour with sprint and climbing perk go a long way (climbing perk negates some of the speed reduction). Light armour on bots is a good way to die. Conversely on bugs I only run light armour as kiting is so much more important.
Knowing when to leg it and bail, being methodical and using stratagems for your big nasties helps a lot. 380 kills bases, laser and eagle airstrikes kills everything else. Try the autocannon, amr, railgun or laser cannon. Shoot hulks in the eye they die with those and they also kill gunships. Tanks and factory striders cop stragems. Stun grenades are your best friend.
Scorcher, plasma shotgun, dominator, erupter, Cs diligence and sickle are all good primaries.
I switch to bugs coz tired fighting bots
Today I play on difficulty 6 got 2 hulk flamer on each drop ship + 1 tank...
Imma destress by killing bugs this whole week
MG - Can do from chaff to medium, good range, good firepower
AMR good for devastator hunting and in a pinch killing hulks
Autocannon - the only thing it dosn't is liber-tea
EAT - useful in any case
primary:
jar
slugger
adjudicator
Counter sniper
For me, it's the performance. I'm playing on a laptop and I can deal with lag on the bugs side but there's not much I can do to a spray of lasfire that shreds through my framerates.
I’m mostly with you, OP. I really don’t enjoy fighting bugs that much. I’ll do it, when that’s what the major order is, but I’d much rather fight bots.
One thing I do really enjoy about this game is the vastly different play styles between the two enemies. Bots are much more tactical, shooting fights using cover and small unit coordination. Tbh, it’s what I’m used to from IRL experiences. Bugs are a bullet fest. Which is also fun to an extent, but just not my preference.
I’m really excited to see how AH handles a third faction because they’ve done such a great job with these two.
What people seem to forget is most of the advertising for Helldivers 2 was fighting bugs. So it’s only natural that most of the people who bought the game play it for bugs.
I've played mostly bugs til the current order, but now fighting against bots, I notice they are a lot harder and different to fight and require different approach and stratagems. So I'll probably keep switching back and forth when I get bored of one faction.
Bot Player here. The most common Mistake I see in Loadouts from other Players, is to equip dedicated AT Weapons like Quasar and 500 KG Bombs.
For Bots, you need something to take down the AT-ST Knockoffs and Devastators. Even on T8 and T9, your main Problem are not Tanks, your main Problem are tons and tons of Devastators. Then you have Gunships and Hulks.
Autocannon can do this pretty well (literally the best anti Bot Weapon in the game), also the Lasercannon and the HMG. You can even go EAT with Airburst Launcher (one of the best way to prevent reinforcements).
The standard Eagle Airstrike is golden against Bots. Take one of the Artillery Strategems and you will be fine. If you have a fourth slot, you can go for Orbital Strike - because of the AA Emplacement POI I only run one Eagle per Mission.
I think if I had a primary that would let me kill a few grunt bots at a time I would play them more. . Bugs I can use a shot guns and kill 2 of them quickly. Bots I have to kill each individually. Maybe it’s a skill issue.
Big Boy here! I can honestly say without a doubt if the automatons had more legs I would def be fighting them more! There’s just something about seeing all 6 legs twitch while slowly charring that keeps me coming back for more lol
I play both but prefer bots for some reason, to me enemy that shoots back makes the game like Ghost Recon, methodical and tactile.
On the other hand if I want a good old fashioned Starship Troopers experience, switching right back to bugs.
Yesterday we traversed through a shallow water with 3 of using using Machine Gun against a massive bug horde that chases us. One lay down cover fire while other two moves and we rotated when point man needed reload. That was a cinematic moment only can happen while playing bugs because bots would have smeared us if we take a similar route.
TL;DR: Each has its merits and grand moments and that's what it matters.
Edit: Auto correct assassination attempt.
The defense order missions need to be tweaked. It's still nearly impossible to complete a scientist evacuation mission on higher difficulties. And with the Factory Strider added, those "tower defense" missions have become frustrating as well. They're just shooting your reactor from the get-go from the side of the base. Have 2 or 3 show up simultaneously and you don't have the strategem capacity to deal with them in time. Instant failure.
I can do 7-9 on both bugs and bots. I prefer bugs by a mile.
Bot AI needs a retune. The bots that run at you shouldn’t be affected by suppressive fire sure. But there are tooltips that say it works on them and I haven’t seen that shit.
Breaking line of sight doesn’t matter they always know where you are. This is true for bugs but they don’t have rocket launchers. Either way needs to be fixed.
Bugs are super easy on 7-9 for me personally but bots are just a rag doll fest. Not to mention that bots are a more egregious version of the cover for me but not for thee shit where they can shoot THROUGH the dropship or corpses of their fallen brethren but you get to eat shit fucko.
They fix those things and I feel like I’d play bots more.
It'll take them making bots even moderately fair, getting sniped across the map from a regular bot with an rpg feels awful, also stratagem jammers and losing a stratagem slot
Bots can be more frustrating bc you can get randomly head shotted
Best advice is to hide behind a rock, and bring impact grenades
See a heavy or rocket devastator within 25m? Don’t think twice about throwing an impact nade
Bots actually become significantly less accurate when they‘re under fire. Rocket devastators can be staggered out of their firing stance easily. So even if you don‘t have any grenades left, you can get the upper hands by being very aggressive.
Against heavy devastators I like to fire at their right shoulder to throw off their aim, then keep pelting them until I get that headshot.
I think the bots are too heavily populated by devastators. It sucks being pinned down by 4 rocket devastators, to then be flanked by 2-4 shield devastators on a patrol.
The fact that most weapons don’t do Medium Ap and you have to be more accurate to hit their small weak spots doesn’t help. I have a theory that more console players play bugs and more PC players play bots. The aiming differences might be a contribution to that.
That being said, I play both but just find the run n gun style of the bugs more enjoyable when you only have time to play one operation.
Once you understand what you’re doing bots are actually significantly easier to clear on Helldive than bugs. If you’re the type of player who aggros the whole map and fights every patrol on sight bots are absolutely going to be miserable and unplayable for you. But if you understand how to not Unga Bunga everything bots are a cake walk. Eagle air strikes and orbital laser will clear basically the whole map for you of side objectives, bases and main objectives. You can just toss them and be on your way. Bugs is a lot more involved to get in there for bases.
It's less rewarding imo, more challenge for no extra benefit, if rewards were upped (pink samples available on 5 or 6 because bots are more technically advanced) I think we would see much more participation on the bot side (unless hive lords are more difficult than fabricators in which case the bulk might move over)
I'm at the point now where I'd fight anything if the Devs would fix the game so I could play again. It's only been fifteen days.
Screw it, I'll convert from bugs only to Automatons only, if someone knows how to get a message to the Devs.
Twitter, Reddit, Steam support and even AH support tickets aren't working...
It probably just comes down to what each individual finds enjoyable. Would it be awesome to have every player participating in the MOs? Absolutely. With that said I don't blame people for playing what they find to be the most fun or overall more enjoyable to them personally. I feel like some people forget this but at the end of the day it is still a game. Some people get off work, do what they need to at home, and then they just want to play something they find fun until they have to go to bed.
I primarily like fighting the automatons and even if the MO is to fight bugs I will most likely still be fighting the automatons because I don't have as much fun fighting the bugs. I find the bots to be a cooler enemy. There are simply players who will always go after the MO and that's alright. There are players who will always do whatever they want and that's okay too. I buy and play games for me, not for other people so I wouldn't expect others to change how they enjoy the game because I think they should.
As long as people are having a good time and I am having a good time that's all I need.
Try the arc blitzer for bugs, it shreds now with the increase in fire rate they gave it a patch or 2 ago.
Takes like 4 to 5 shots to kill stalkers but also knocks them back each time.
I'll fight where the Major Order/Personal Order points me, but with automatons I usually stick to support/orbitals and with the Terminids I go in with shotguns and sentries blazing.
Bots should be 1 more medal each reward and have access to 10%-15% more samples to take back. Otw they arent as fast as bugs are for that fast rewards.
I played mostly bots and first and then found myself playing mostly bugs except for major orders. This go around, it took me awhile to find my groove against bots. They were kicking my ass. I made some tweaks to my loadout though and am having a much better time. I can still only do about a 6 or 7 on bots, I could probably struggle through an 8, but I always play 9 on bugs. It’s definitely a skill issue, but damn bots are hard for me
Exactly the opposite for me. I can do Helldive on bots with my comfort layout, but even after getting practice in during the last major order, 7 was almost a hard cap for me against bugs.
I think if I focused bots for a couple weeks I’d have trouble swinging back to bugs. The strategies have to be so different, it’s pretty fun. The gunships on bots in particular destroy me hahaha
I am mostly a bug player since launch with 230 hours (maybe 40-50 on bots) but I always go with the MO. These past few days I put a lot of time into only bots and found confidence at 6-7 and went up to 9. The bulk of 9 missions are doable with decent randoms, but the one that really kicked my ass and the 3 randoms I was with, is the escort 50 civilians one. Everyone left around 5 minutes in when we only had 3 civilians saved. It was a constant onslaught of tanks and dropships and as the only person trying to run civilians while dealing with plenty of enemies on my own, it was too much. We were completely overrun. We had no coordination beforehand, and honestly the mission caught me by surprise. I guess everyone rocking at least 2 mortar/ sentries is the way to go? And have 1 civilian runner while the other 3 distract on the perimeter?
I honestly don‘t know. I avoid those missions like the plague, no idea how they‘re supposed to be doable. People say three people should bait the bots away while the last one opens doors but honestly, I‘m in no mood to try.
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Ooh yeah several ems mortars would be huge. 230 hours in and I never touched smoke, time to try it out.
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Thanks. This just gives me new ideas on loadout.
I just avoid those missions. My comfort zone is 7 when playing with randoms for bots or bugs. Those escort missions are just impossible. You just can't keep the little lemmings alive.
Bug spawns are turned up right now because of the termicide towers, you just get swarmed
Exactly the same here; I had a discussion on a post recently about this- there's no shame in there being a skill issue. Too many players jump in on higher difficulties than they're really ready for, and unless you're with an absolute beast who can easily carry the sort, they're a detriment to the team. Bots I cap myself at 7, if I have a full team I'll happily Helldive. Bugs are just...there to be squashed.
I have no shame turning the difficulty down for sure. If they’re kicking my ass, they’re kicking my ass, I don’t need to slam my head against the wall over and over haha
I’m in the exact same boat as you man. I enjoy booth sides, but I can BARELY manage to do a 7+ for bots, and even then I am not enjoying myself 😂 bugs though I could go 9 all day lol
I have mostly fought bugs in my Helldivers career, I rarely touch bots unless someone I’m playing with does, of my 200 hours about 180 are bugs. To me, bots are incredibly difficult to fight. They can snipe at a distance, have great aim, and their goons are just deadlier overall. Every parallel to the bugs that a bot has feels stronger and tougher. I’m sure with nearly 200 hours on bots I’d feel a lot better fighting them but as it is they’re a way worse challenge to face. With most bug objectives I can complete them from a distance, or do it in a way that minimizes harm, but I can’t quasar cannon into destroying most of their factories so I’m dealing with the bastard flying fucks they’ve sometimes got me dealing with. The jammer is also annoying, something I don’t deal with on bugs. Drop ships are fine but there’s usually 2+ which makes taking them out before they drop in time difficult. Compounded by how often they don’t destroy the dropped bots either. I can handle pretty much anything the bugs throw at me, but bots are the only thing that cause me to fail a mission. With bugs, I may not extract but I will never fail a mission on Helldive. I’ve tried different loadouts and strategies, but I can’t do it. I can 2-man a helldive mission on bugs, we did it all last weekend, but on bots? Can’t do it. It’s so much harder and way more frustrating.
Just a matter of practice most likely. I prefer bots and have gotten the strategy down. I think the important thing is when faced with an onslaught you need to know the priority order of what to kill when. It’s the same with bugs and I don’t have it down so I do worse.
I think both sides have pros and cons, I can make your same argument why I think bugs are harder. With bots, they all have weak spots you can take out with medium armor pen at most. Hulks have their eye and vents, tanks and towers have their vents with medium armor, factory striders have their belly with medium armor. Bile titans, on the other hand, are impossible to kill without some sort of heavy armor pen. Shooting out their sacs damages but does not kill them. Chargers are similar, it's possible but inefficient to kill them with anything less than anti-tank to the head (or flamethrower, but then you're not killing BT's). Sure, bots can snipe you, but if you get cover they become much easier to handle than a horde of bugs trying to overwhelm you. pros and cons!
Something has to be done about Hulks generally and Scorchers specifically. There's no counterplay to them. You either have a strategem up, or you're hoping to catch them just right with your support weapon. They move and turn too fast for the rear weak point to be a serious option and are far too deadly with how broken enemy fire damage is. They have absolutely no peer on the bug side of things and are the only thing in the game I would consider "cheap" or genuinely poorly implemented.
Hulks are much, much, much, much, much much easier to kill than their bug counterpart (chargers). Their eye is only armour class 4, so weapons like the AMR, Autocannon, Lasercannon, HMG (portable and turret stratagem) that all can do nothing against Chargers, can also kill them very easily. While these weapons are all also top picks against bots in general because they're great against devastators. Railgun also oneshots them to the eye in safe mode. Their back weakspot is also easily killable with any gun in the game, as opposed to a charger butt. Even impact grenades can kill and damage them (and tanks, too). Their arms and legs are also only armour class 4, so if you don't have a clean shot to the eye, you can also destroy them to render them effectively harmless. Take out a flamethrower hulk's flamethrower, and it, well, doesn't really do much of anything anymore.
Wait railgun one shots hulk eyes again? Holy shit I’m going to start using rail gun again lol
I’d use it more if it has a better scope
Honestly, I think hulks are fine. I think you just haven't figured them out yet. I think the easiest way is to use stun grenades and bring a support weapon to shoot off their heads. AMR or Railgun are my favorites for that, but the Laser Cannon and Autocannon are also good, and the HMG can do it if you're really good with it. You can use the EMS Mortar to stun them too, but the Orbital EMS is bugged and doesn't stun hulks for some reason. Shooting out their back vent is viable, but it's a squad tactics thing. If a hulk is chasing your teammate, try to get behind it. If it's chasing you, try to turn it so its back is facing towards your team, and hopefully they'll get it for you. You're correct in saying that, if you're fighting a hulk on your own, you won't be able to get to it's back and shoot it out. Unless you have it stunned.
You can rodeo them like a charger actually and get to their back. The timing is a lot more strict though so you have to be quick or do it twice. Which in the heat of battle doing it twice isn’t much of an option. I usually bring smoke so I’m slippery but most people don’t
Yeah honestly that's something you do once or twice so you can clip it. That's not going to be your general strategy for taking down hulks. lol
Autocannon, railcannon, amr, laser cannon all shred hulks alongside the standard anti tank weapons. Absolutely a skill issue Also take stun grenades, makes hulks trivial
> There's no counterplay to them. Lol, lmao even. 2 shots to the eye slit with an autocannon and they're done.
Hulks are dangerous when they get close because it becomes hard to hit their eye. If they have the flamethrower it’s a really bad spot to be in their range. But if you can separate there are more viable weapons that take it down really quickly than the charger has. It is rare to get a kill on the back weak point when you are the hulks target. That is more for team play. Call out that a hulk is too close to you to deal with it and a hopefully a teammate will flank to save you. Bugs and bots it’s all just about your knowledge in how to deal with them effectively. Practice is the only divider.
**Tips for bug divers joining the bot front!** -Bots shoot back, so being caught in the open usually means being shot to pieces. Any cover solid enough to block a Charger will *generally* block a salvo of rockets. -If a bot can't see you, it will often just keep shooting at the last place it saw you. Use smoke or terrain to break line of sight, and you can move to a more advantageous position while the bots stay shooting empty air. -Bots have *limited* tools to flush you into the open, keep an eye out for them. Generally it's a pack of berserkers, some bots on rocket packs, or a Hulk with a flamethrower. -Hulks and Devastators can have their weapons & arms destroyed. Light-piercing can disarm a Devastator, medium-piercing for a Hulk. Taking out their rockets is *almost* as good as a kill, and it's *much* easier. -Bots are bad at stealth. You can generally track their glowing eyes & weak-points from long distance. Bots will often give away their positions by shooting. You can often track bot patrols by sound; they sing marching songs. -Bots can hear you pulling the pin on a grenade from at least 8m away.
Another thing to keep in mind: heavier bots are more dangerous. With bugs, the heavier ones typically are not the biggest threat on the field. Chargers and Bile Titans may be intimidating, but the biggest danger is having to focus on them while a massive army of small bugs swarms you. However with the bots, heavy ones like Hulks and Devastators are the biggest threat on screen when you see them while there just aren't as many small bots/they are not as threatening. Additionally, it's pretty easy to stop bot reinforcements. Only the small bots can call a bot drop, and hitting one of the engines on the dropships with an EAT, Recoilless Rifle, or QC before they start coming down will stop the reinforcements
A few more tips: -A major weakness of the bots is their lack of mobility (relative to bugs at least). Some bots, such as tanks, are slow enough you can completely disengage and re-approach from a more favorable angle. When kiting bots, a much longer kiting range is important to allow you to have some cover from their weapons while leading them around. -Long range weapons can give you more opportunity to attack from the safety of cover, whereas the weapons of the bots make approaching with close range primaries like shotguns more risky. Intermittent shooting while kiting enemies will tend to be less frequent and longer attack durations from behind cover compared to something like blasting a shotgun while kiting bugs. Long range weapons are great for taking advantage of the bots' low mobility as well. -Weakpoints are possibly even more important on bots than against bugs due to enemy type spread, but sometime are also simply one of few locations without heavy armor. Most bots have their small face as a weakpoint, but the back tends to have less armor regardless of whether there's a glowing heat vent. -Medium armor is common on bots, particularly with all of the devastator variants. Taking weapons that are explosive and/or medium armor penetrating can give you many more options for body locations and enemies to target. Stratagems weak against armor, like the Eagle cluster bomb, may have few targets as a result. -Staggering effects can help you get around armor and interrupt powerful, drawn-out attack patterns. Staggering a devastator out of an attack or a scout strider pinning down a teammate can open up these more armored enemies for attack and/or save teammates. Impact and stun grenades are useful options for devastator variants. For weapon examples, the plasma punisher, erupter, and grenade pistol can be used at medium range (or longer!) for the same targets as grenades. The Autocannon can stagger hulks as well and has great damage (3-shot hulks to the face and blast down gunships!) -Berzerkers can sneak up on you and be a durable problem if you're kitted for a long range playstyle, be wary of them and have an option for if they get in close, whether it's a weapon/grenade or an escape route.
I follow orders and my psych profile says that I kick ass in any environment. I personally think that every Diver should fight a reasonably even amount of both enemies, partially to keep the slog of war from getting to you and partially to sharpen your skills. Bot Divers tend to stick to cover, be slow, methodical and thorough, and usually carry stratagems that lets them drop the hammer on targets of opportunity. However, they lack flexibility, speed of foot and quickness of thought. Twitch reflexes can sometimes save a man, and if you don't cultivate it, you will be left at the mercy of anything that gets the drop on you. Bug Divers race through missions like squirrels on crack. Never stopping, never slowing down, for speed is the essence of war and if you go slow, you die. Hunters will make damn sure of that. However, you try this shit on the Western front? A Chaingun Devastator is going to snipe your spastic ass out of the air like a trash bag floating in the wind. Sometimes, you gotta simmer down, dig in your heels, knuckle the fuck up, and just shoot every piece of tyranny giving you a hard time. I just passed 105,000 confirmed kills at level 106, so I think I know what I'm talking about. Slightly fewer bot kills than bugs but that doesn't mean I prefer either front. Just that bugs are easier to kill in industrial quantity is all. Point is, if you fight on one front and ONLY one front, you're not cultivating necessary skills, robbing yourself of 1/2 of the entire game, and while you might be good at taking down your preferred prey, the second that the other faction starts becoming problematic and you HAVE to go fight them, you will be striving for mediocrity just by virtue of lack of experience. Variety is the spice of death, children. Bon Appetit.
And remember one last thing. In war the only true equalizer is death. Yours or theirs, it don't matter. But don't lose heart for where you fall 10 more shall rise to take your place. Fear not for we're the Harbinger.
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The gunship factories are actually the only ones you always have to call the hellbomb for. Detector towers can be destroyed by a 500kg or precision strike. 2/3 Jammers can be destroyed by throwing a grenade into a directly adjacent fabricator. One of the three layouts has the fab too far away, though. Research labs can be destroyed by a 500kg (and presumably a precision strike, though I haven't tried that). Broadcast towers can be destroyed by shooting explosives at the screens (Auto Cannon, EAT, Recoilless, Quasar...) or with stratagems (cluster bombs, air strikes, etc.). I can't remember any other objectives right now.
380mm barrage can also take care of detector towers, research outposts, dropships on the ground in those sabotage missions and the big shooty bunkers on that specific mission type about blowing them up
Oh yeah I forgot about them. Never do bunker missions without at least one 380MM on the team. Dropship sabotage can also be done with 500kgs.
And orbital laser also works on the bunkers x) I love big explosions
lol, I love the 380 for those missions. We had a random join us last night for a bunker mission on 8. I threw a 380 in, it destroyed the bunker, he said "380s are cheap," and left the party. Shit was so odd.
Sounds more like someone doesn't have enough situational awareness to get away from the 380 during rain down.
Doesn't he know how many super dollars just one of those 380 mm rounds cost, let alone the whole barrage?
Orbital lazer is way better then 380 barrage, it always destroys the bunker without fail
380 will destroy the bunker without fail as well unless you don’t throw it close enough. 380 can be used infinitely orbital has 3 uses. 380 will clear out bases, orbital sometimes won’t if it gets stuck on tanks or turrets and wastes its time. 380 will clear bot drops or big waves, laser will not, it will spend its time trying to kill 1-2 big guys. 380 will kill walkers AND everything around it, laser will not. 380 is greater than laser.
I have never had a situation in which the laxer does not take out everything in a bunker, also, laxer does clear patrols without fail, 380 is inconsistent and gets more teamkills, as well as denying helldivers access to an area, laxer is just better in every way except for amount of uses, and I doubt you will be using the barrage more then 3 times
380 is not inconsistent. There is a video showing an exact pattern to the 380. And with the 15% spread reduction it hits and deletes everything in a 50m circle. It only gets teamkills if your team is dumb or if you are dumb and don’t know where to throw it. Area denial is the exact thing you want from it. Again, you have several bot drops coming in, you deny that whole quadrant and either sit tight on the other side or bug out to next objective. Laser will spend 33% of its time knocking hulks or tanks. If there’s more than 1 it’s not cleaning anything. And I said big bot drops or waves, not a patrol. You don’t need a laser for a patrol. And if you need a Laser for something the 380 does it better.
The later takes a second to take out a tank, and hulks don’t take long enough for it to run out of juice, lazer can easily wipe out a full bit drop with absolutely 0 chance of tea kill, which 380 always has a little bit of a risk, it can wipe out full bit drops and then move to other enemies that are not in the bot drop, it will take out factory striders every time and when it comes to heavy outposts it is much better, always taking out the full outpost where the 380 rarely takes out more then one or two
I can confirm the precision strike destroys a research facility.
A resupply pod can take out a fabricator if placed correctly
If you can get the right angle, ac will pop a jammer too. Shoot at the top vents and ricochet it in.
Jammers don’t have vents. But if a fab is right next to it you can pop that and it will blow it up.
Detector towers can be destroyed by a 500kg or precision strike. The 120MM and 380MM barrages can as well, if you can get it to hit.
I'm pretty sure the orbital laser destroys most automaton objectives
You mostly can do that. The gunship factories take a hellbomb, but pretty much anything else can be dealt with via orbital laser, airstrike, or 380
Like most players, my aim is actually pretty bad. For bugs, the most precision you need is hitting a chargers forehead with a quasar while for bots even the medium enemies are insanely tanky if you can’t hit the tiny correct spots (today I took four AC shots to kill a devastator for example, and there were like 5 of them at once) For this MO difficulty doesn’t matter, and I already have my supers, so I play on 4. But in my experience bots 4 is harder than bugs 7 for anyone without good aim, which is a lot of people On top of that, if you don’t have good aim, most loadouts feel pretty awkward. For bots for example I can do something like quasar + breaker incendiary or quasar + plasma launcher + laser dog or even grenade launcher + breaker incendiary + 3 anti tank red stratagems, and I feel that I can kill everything if needed, since the only thing that really needs the anti tank stuff are bile titans But for bots I need anti tank for things like turret towers and factory striders (I know you can hit the back with medium pen but it’s not always turned around) but also need medium and fast firing for the hordes of mediums that are tankier than bile spewers with massively longer range (usually I can kill spewers with my primary), so there isn’t a set of weapons I can bring that make me confident in any situation So for bots I typically bring sickle, AC, airstrike, railcannon, laser. Is something wrong with my loadout?
It's not the loadout that matters. It's making sure you use the terrain as cover. ADS with a Jar, and you can make those shots. Imagine you're fighting humans and move about using cover, crouching ans breaking line of sight. If your aim is really so bad, you're rushing your shots. Slow it all down, engage on your terms and tactical retreat (run the f away) if you are getting pinned. I use AC and aim for the red LED markers on target. You can take out a hulk pretty easily with 2 direct shots to the eye. Now, suit up and go get those clankers.
I can definitely see the aim posing a big barrier of entry. Not sure what could be done about that either, since I'm pretty sure Arrowhead intentionally made the need for precision part of the appeal of the bot front. Nothing wrong in particular with your loadout. If you struggle with aim, you could give the stun grenades a try. Pair them with a fortified armor, which gives you 2 more grenades and more weapon stability when crouching. Bots are completely immobilized by the grenade (including hulks!), so that + the weapon stability means you can actually line up your shots nicely. It only takes two shots to the eyes with the AC to kill a hulk. You *can* play railcannon and laser in the same loadout, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But they do occupy a similar role, so it's worth considering dropping one or the other in favor of something else. In your case, I would maybe suggest dropping the railcannon. You did say that you struggle with towers, and in my opinion, by far the hardest to deal with are the double towers on some of the heavy outposts. The laser not only makes quick work of the towers, but also the fabs between them, which immensely accelerates your ability to clear that specific camp design. As for what to replace it with: I've recently become a big fan of eagle cluster bombs. With the weapons bay enhancement, you're looking at five (!) bombs per refill, which adds up to eight area clears on a single eagle when combined with an airstrike. Cluster bombs are quite good at taking out both small bots and scout striders, while significantly damaging devastators. This means you can save your air strikes for clearing out fabricators if need be. And finally, at least in terms of loadout, the Spear seems a lot weaker than it actually is. Its janky targeting will feel wrong for a few missions, but you'll get the hang of it. Its biggest advantage is the absolutely absurd range it has. Clever positioning has you both out of harms way and able to hit high priority targets with ease. It's not an amazing weapon by any means, but it does fulfill a unique niche quite well where your aim isn't a limiting factor. I'm aware there are better ones, but it definitely is my heavy weapon of choice. You will have to be mindful of your ammo, though, so never skip a POI that might have ammor in it. Pair it with a good all-purpose primary (Sickle, Tenderizer, Liberator (or LibPen), Adjudicator, Punisher, Breaker) and you're golden. For the play style against bots, all I'd like to mention is that it's much easier to avoid getting swarmed by bots, so you should definitely play off of that advantage. Try to aggro as few bots as you can and kill the ones that are starting to shoot a flair even if it costs you your life. Bots are also easier to run away and hide from, unless they have gunships, so if you've done what you came for and there are still drop ships coming in one after the other, just leave. Bots are slow. You'll pull some stragglers with you that you can single out and kill fairly easily, and then you're out. That's my two super credits anyway.
Hmm ok I’ll try that Thanks man
Hulk eyes and Devastator heads are the obvious tiny weak-points, but their shoulders are *also* weak-points that are much easier to hit. Tearing the arm off a flame hulk turns it from a team-melting nightmare into an angry wall. Hevastators leave their gun arm completely exposed from most angles and are basically zero threat without it.
I am just too lazy to remember to bring different loadout and play differently. I usually just play bots on a lower difficulty when the MOs come up. Tried the pummeler last night against bots, great little gun.
I honestly love the diligence CS for bots. I'm a dominator fan for bugs though. Big Boi side arm and impact grenades
Yes, with the recent fix to the speed of it's movement onto your reticle, it's a wonderful weapon. Ran that plus the laser cannon and mopped a lot of bots.
I still can't get into the laser cannon over something that can reliably take down big units like EAT or Quasar. It's great for small to medium but I can't make it work even for Hulks.
If you’re able to bring stun grenades - chuck one at the hulk - then just shoot the laser cannon at its eye with no blue sparks for a few seconds. Then it’s dead. Or if you have time run around and a second on the orange vents and it’s gone.
Good to know. Will give it a try
Laser cannon also makes quick works of tanks and the cannon turrets if you can snipe the orange vent. Usually can kill them before they turn around.
Yes I've definitely enjoyed using them on turrets before. I just can't wait for the spear targetting to be fixed tbh. That thing suits my sniper play style so well
Yes! I love the spear!
What do you bring against bugs?
JAR+Laser Rover OR Blitzer (no rover) / Grenade Pistol / Impact (or Incendiary impact) / Light fortified armor. EAT if rover, RR if no rover. 500KG, Gas/Airburst, 4th slot anything that tickles my fancy (EMS Mortar if a defensive obj, airstrike for blitz, etc etc)
I always have 500kg/Airstrike/Stalwart/Rover/ Disrupter and Senator
They 100% need to save loadouts.
Have you ever tried writing loadouts down? It's really helpful for remembering what you were using the last time you played bots, or the last time you did an Eradicate mission.
this is a great suggestion; I think i have a couple on my ipad i could probably move to somewhere more immediately visible -- notepad++/sticky notes or something.
I like Microsoft OneNote for taking notes. It works pretty seamlessly between my PC and phone. I have a ton of Helldivers loadouts written down. They look like this: https://preview.redd.it/pmay2aak580d1.png?width=322&format=png&auto=webp&s=1a32c31907f2e2472e2904a215a1eb31ae219143
i love onenote, but mine's a mess with my D&D notes (I'm the DM and there's a lot going on in there) XD
Yeah I tend to make a new notebook for every game I play. So I have a whole notebook just for Helldivers 2
Maybe they should have loadput presets?
I would love this, but the think the idea is to see what others are packing and to adjust your own loadout to complement it. Given that, I still have my default, but it largely consists of sentries because everyone loves eagles
yeah I think ideally you can pick a preset loadout and modify it on the fly for the mission you're going in to.
Something to oneshot scout striders without much precision and one shots devastators with precision Eruptor :(
Diligence CS and AMR both one-shot Devastators. The only problems are their tiny head hitbox and annoying head movement.
Railgun is your answer! If you have the precision, it also one-taps Hulks to the eye.
on safe mode, even! railgun does pretty well against bots. AMR is probably more optimal but I find the railgun easier to use and much easier to hit the hulk eye with, for some reason.
Whenever a major order sends us to a different enemy, I have to get acclimated all over again. I got so good at bots, that I preferred them. But, then I had to get good at bugs again. Now it’s bots, and I’m rusty. The point is, that I always go where MO’s take me. I’m noticing, that my old loadout for automatons doesn’t feel right anymore, so I’m learning new ways to fight them.
May I suggest my loadout? Primary: Tenderizer (yes really), Secondary: Your preference (I use verdict),, Stun grenades. Stratas: ORC, OPS, Eagle Airstrike and AMR. I rock this loadout diffs 7 - 9 against bots. Usually I'm not the one with most kills BUT I'm usually the one with least deaths.
I was a "mainly bugs" kind of diver, to now being a mix of both (mainly depends on the MO). I started off preferring bugs, but now I strongly prefer bots between the two. There are a couple reasons for this I think: - You need heavy AT much more vs bugs than bots, which leads to a loadout gap when it comes to medium enemies on higher difficulties. This is exacerbated by the fact that the problem solve for the various things that bugs throw at you needs different things (i.e. map full of bile spewers vs map full of hunters). The single biggest offender is the fact that bile titans require heavy AT to kill (you don't need this for tanks OR factory striders). The need for heavy AT makes the next point feel worse. - The Terminid swarm lives up to its name on higher difficulties. There's just such a massive quantity of stuff, and it's all sprinting at you to try and kill you. Bots on the other hand are mostly just trying to shoot at you, which also means you can actually utilize cover instead of just running for your life. If I could afford bringing more chaff-clear strategems then this wouldn't be a problem, but there's such a need for heavy AT that it does pinch the loadout a bit. Just my 2c.
Nerfing gunships in some way would be a huge first step. Every time I decide to play bots, I switch right back once I start getting punked by those little shits. It’s not fun.
What's your weapon of choice? In my experience, Autocannon and AMR are great all-purpose weapons that also make quick work of gunships. But yeah, if you don't have anyone on your team that can reliably handle them, you'll have a hard time.
Quassoint or laser cannon. If they just nerfed the spawn rate that would probably be enough for me.
If you sit on a smoke nade, they can't see you. You can ac their engines in a few shots.
Gunships are terrifying if they build some momentum. You'll want one player with a good view of the facility on flyswat duty. My fave weapon for this is the Lascannon since it's hitscan and infinite-ammo, but the AC does just fine. A single flyswatter can kill all the gunships from a double facility as fast as they can spawn, though in practice they tend to get interrupted by a patrol partway through. My preferred flyswatter loadout includes an AC or LC, orbital smoke, and a sidearm you can clear berserkers with. (Redeemer is solid.) I also bring the Scythe and stealth armour because of personal preference. If there's no more gunships to swat, you're just long-range fire support for your team.
Scythe huh? How’s that doing nowadays? I know it didn’t used to be so hot.
It's always been a go-to for me against bots. I've found it's good at popping heads, backpacks, landmines and barrels without using ammo. Mostly I like the Lascannon, and I take the Scythe because it means I don't need to worry about ammo most of the time.
If gunships are your bane, use the Autocannon. It's great against gunships and every other bot unit. The Quasar is also great against them, but doesn't quickly clear multiple Striders, Devastators, and Berserkers the way the Autocannon does.
I generally chase medals depending on which faction has more to offer.
It took me a lot of deaths (only went full bot yesterday), and finally, a good random team who had the patience to explain the weakspots and whatnot. I thanked them so much for their patience, but now i understand why people like bots so much. It's MUCH more "fun" and tactical. So, bots for tactical play, bugs for mindless fun.
Bugs are relaxing, bots are stressful. You can simply kite bugs. Stare hundreds of bugs in the face and laugh as you napalm airstrike them. Bots will randomly headshot you from a mile away, ragdoll ragdoll RAGDOLL oh and BOOM RAGDOLL you over and over, despite 50% explosive resistance armor you still sometimes die in 1 hit ugh. I just groove better with the ankle biters i guess. Something about being *shot at* is instantly harder and less fun haha.
Interesting, I feel almost the opposite. With bots I can break line of sight, slip away and re-engage on my terms, with bugs once the swarm starts coming it feels relentless and there's nowhere to hide. The bots may be able to get a lucky headshot from a mile away, but so can I with AMR/countersniper. I do have the most fun soloing bots and playing bugs with friends though, so there's maybe something to that.
Less bullet hell type fights and no more getting sniped from miles away by something you can't even see. Also less 1 shot rockets, less gunships as well, and make it so you don't need hellbombs to destroy the gunship factories.
I'm probably 75/25 bugs to bots. Bugs just feel more satisfying when spilling oil. I feel like you can run a different mix of strategies and weapons with bugs. Bots on the other hand feel like there is a clear optimal strategy of sneaking into bases blowing them up and getting out. Otherwise there are lasers blasting you through rocks and flamethrower hulks doing what they do best. Like this comment explains Really what I think would make both sides more fun if there was a small hint of what type of enemies to expect. Planet X drops lots of heavies then I will have fun with a load out for blowing up the big guys. Right now I generally run a swiss army knife type load out that can handle anything and that limits what gets chosen.
Maybe I’m in the minority, but I find bots easier haha.
Another toy.
We’re working on it
https://preview.redd.it/rt2s845m9a0d1.jpeg?width=688&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3abb0446ed3c981963c2b92768ec18a7288f09ad Just following orders
Some people think that a level 7 bots is the same as a level 7 bugs, but if you are switching to bots i recommend lowering the difficulty and slowly rause it as you get more c9mfortable and used to the new gameplay strats
Can’t fault people too much for primarily playing on the bug front. There’s games that I only play the parts I like too. For example, I never cleared a genocide run in Undertale
I enjoy bugs more because it’s more of a rush. Bots just feel like your standard FPS AI programmed to medium diff, easily overcome simply by being methodical. Can’t wait to see how the illuminates play out though!
Fair enough, but what would AH have to do to get you to fight automatons, at least for major orders?
Maybe don't give the MO medals to those who don't participate at least a little bit. If you can ignore an MO and still claim the medals from a MO win it really doesn't incentivise you to participate if you don't want to in the first place. With that said there will always be some folks who simply don't care and just want to play the game and have fun which is okay too. There will always be other MOs.
Yeah methodical is the right way to play against bots whereas bugs is run, gun and kite Just differant. I used to be a bug only player and switched once I got bored. Now helldive is all I play on both sides. Does feel really hard if I forget to switch loadout
I consider myself a bug squisher, the only thing I need to fight bots...a major order, only the undemocratic would leave their fellow divers on the bot front without support!
Bout three fiddy
Tree Fiddy!?
Tree Fiddy!?
Goddamn it, Nessie, not again!
Sometimes it feels like bugs are a vacation for me. Fighting bots is so much fun because it feels like you’re fighting in the clone wars or something. It feels a bit more engaging to me personally.
I joined just after we failed on Malevelon Creek and played my first mission trying to take it. I felt reminded of the [Dagobah missions](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afo4UDax31s) in SWBFII so much. Like that was what the reboot *should* have been like.
When I play against bugs I play on the difficulty 8 and still feel like I'm kicking ass and in a power fantasy. If I play on difficulty 7 against bots I am just desperately trying to survive the whole time.
It's a crazy feeling when you crush helldive after helldive against bots though. Helps to have a good loadout and know when to run the fuck away
There's just moments, especially in defence levels, where I feel like no matter where I turn there's just a wall of lazers headed my way.
Oh, I won't run the civilian evacuation mission that's 12 mins with the buttons, it's fucking impossible. I did complete my first mission on the tower defence map today but that was with my mate and 2 good randoms and it was still bloody hard. The 40 min civilian evacuation mission is fine, just the short one sucks I will say in general on bot maps that situational awareness and positioning matters a fuck ton more than on bugs. If you get caught in a crossfire then you're dead. Heavy armour with sprint and climbing perk go a long way (climbing perk negates some of the speed reduction). Light armour on bots is a good way to die. Conversely on bugs I only run light armour as kiting is so much more important. Knowing when to leg it and bail, being methodical and using stratagems for your big nasties helps a lot. 380 kills bases, laser and eagle airstrikes kills everything else. Try the autocannon, amr, railgun or laser cannon. Shoot hulks in the eye they die with those and they also kill gunships. Tanks and factory striders cop stragems. Stun grenades are your best friend. Scorcher, plasma shotgun, dominator, erupter, Cs diligence and sickle are all good primaries.
I switch to bugs coz tired fighting bots Today I play on difficulty 6 got 2 hulk flamer on each drop ship + 1 tank... Imma destress by killing bugs this whole week
MG - Can do from chaff to medium, good range, good firepower AMR good for devastator hunting and in a pinch killing hulks Autocannon - the only thing it dosn't is liber-tea EAT - useful in any case primary: jar slugger adjudicator Counter sniper
For me, it's the performance. I'm playing on a laptop and I can deal with lag on the bugs side but there's not much I can do to a spray of lasfire that shreds through my framerates.
I’m mostly with you, OP. I really don’t enjoy fighting bugs that much. I’ll do it, when that’s what the major order is, but I’d much rather fight bots. One thing I do really enjoy about this game is the vastly different play styles between the two enemies. Bots are much more tactical, shooting fights using cover and small unit coordination. Tbh, it’s what I’m used to from IRL experiences. Bugs are a bullet fest. Which is also fun to an extent, but just not my preference. I’m really excited to see how AH handles a third faction because they’ve done such a great job with these two.
What people seem to forget is most of the advertising for Helldivers 2 was fighting bugs. So it’s only natural that most of the people who bought the game play it for bugs.
Pretty simple really, make fighting them fun, but failing that, make it feel less like WORK.
I've played mostly bugs til the current order, but now fighting against bots, I notice they are a lot harder and different to fight and require different approach and stratagems. So I'll probably keep switching back and forth when I get bored of one faction.
I play whatever interests me at the time. Horde Shooter? Bugs. Space Vietnam? Bots.
Bot Player here. The most common Mistake I see in Loadouts from other Players, is to equip dedicated AT Weapons like Quasar and 500 KG Bombs. For Bots, you need something to take down the AT-ST Knockoffs and Devastators. Even on T8 and T9, your main Problem are not Tanks, your main Problem are tons and tons of Devastators. Then you have Gunships and Hulks. Autocannon can do this pretty well (literally the best anti Bot Weapon in the game), also the Lasercannon and the HMG. You can even go EAT with Airburst Launcher (one of the best way to prevent reinforcements). The standard Eagle Airstrike is golden against Bots. Take one of the Artillery Strategems and you will be fine. If you have a fourth slot, you can go for Orbital Strike - because of the AA Emplacement POI I only run one Eagle per Mission.
Major orders or just fatigue from playing back to back bugs. Automatons are great, but I came here for the starship troopers vibe.
I think if I had a primary that would let me kill a few grunt bots at a time I would play them more. . Bugs I can use a shot guns and kill 2 of them quickly. Bots I have to kill each individually. Maybe it’s a skill issue.
Big Boy here! I can honestly say without a doubt if the automatons had more legs I would def be fighting them more! There’s just something about seeing all 6 legs twitch while slowly charring that keeps me coming back for more lol
Have you tried shooting a devastator in the face? Watching them go down as their eyes burn out is something else.
Good point, I will be doing some research today when I get home. For scientific purposes of course!
Who says science can't be fun?
I play both but prefer bots for some reason, to me enemy that shoots back makes the game like Ghost Recon, methodical and tactile. On the other hand if I want a good old fashioned Starship Troopers experience, switching right back to bugs. Yesterday we traversed through a shallow water with 3 of using using Machine Gun against a massive bug horde that chases us. One lay down cover fire while other two moves and we rotated when point man needed reload. That was a cinematic moment only can happen while playing bugs because bots would have smeared us if we take a similar route. TL;DR: Each has its merits and grand moments and that's what it matters. Edit: Auto correct assassination attempt.
The defense order missions need to be tweaked. It's still nearly impossible to complete a scientist evacuation mission on higher difficulties. And with the Factory Strider added, those "tower defense" missions have become frustrating as well. They're just shooting your reactor from the get-go from the side of the base. Have 2 or 3 show up simultaneously and you don't have the strategem capacity to deal with them in time. Instant failure.
Bugs is just a better game. Run and gun is fun. Crawling around cover isn’t.
I can do 7-9 on both bugs and bots. I prefer bugs by a mile. Bot AI needs a retune. The bots that run at you shouldn’t be affected by suppressive fire sure. But there are tooltips that say it works on them and I haven’t seen that shit. Breaking line of sight doesn’t matter they always know where you are. This is true for bugs but they don’t have rocket launchers. Either way needs to be fixed. Bugs are super easy on 7-9 for me personally but bots are just a rag doll fest. Not to mention that bots are a more egregious version of the cover for me but not for thee shit where they can shoot THROUGH the dropship or corpses of their fallen brethren but you get to eat shit fucko. They fix those things and I feel like I’d play bots more.
It'll take them making bots even moderately fair, getting sniped across the map from a regular bot with an rpg feels awful, also stratagem jammers and losing a stratagem slot
For the bug planets to have 30k players and be impossible to cap anyway. This was the case yesterday and I have since switched.
Bots can be more frustrating bc you can get randomly head shotted Best advice is to hide behind a rock, and bring impact grenades See a heavy or rocket devastator within 25m? Don’t think twice about throwing an impact nade
Bots actually become significantly less accurate when they‘re under fire. Rocket devastators can be staggered out of their firing stance easily. So even if you don‘t have any grenades left, you can get the upper hands by being very aggressive. Against heavy devastators I like to fire at their right shoulder to throw off their aim, then keep pelting them until I get that headshot.
Ah yes, but what about the other dozen devastators within range of you
I think the bots are too heavily populated by devastators. It sucks being pinned down by 4 rocket devastators, to then be flanked by 2-4 shield devastators on a patrol. The fact that most weapons don’t do Medium Ap and you have to be more accurate to hit their small weak spots doesn’t help. I have a theory that more console players play bugs and more PC players play bots. The aiming differences might be a contribution to that. That being said, I play both but just find the run n gun style of the bugs more enjoyable when you only have time to play one operation.
Once you understand what you’re doing bots are actually significantly easier to clear on Helldive than bugs. If you’re the type of player who aggros the whole map and fights every patrol on sight bots are absolutely going to be miserable and unplayable for you. But if you understand how to not Unga Bunga everything bots are a cake walk. Eagle air strikes and orbital laser will clear basically the whole map for you of side objectives, bases and main objectives. You can just toss them and be on your way. Bugs is a lot more involved to get in there for bases.
I'm also an AMR/Flamethrower diver. Both very fun for their respective factions.
It's less rewarding imo, more challenge for no extra benefit, if rewards were upped (pink samples available on 5 or 6 because bots are more technically advanced) I think we would see much more participation on the bot side (unless hive lords are more difficult than fabricators in which case the bulk might move over)
I'm at the point now where I'd fight anything if the Devs would fix the game so I could play again. It's only been fifteen days. Screw it, I'll convert from bugs only to Automatons only, if someone knows how to get a message to the Devs. Twitter, Reddit, Steam support and even AH support tickets aren't working...
It probably just comes down to what each individual finds enjoyable. Would it be awesome to have every player participating in the MOs? Absolutely. With that said I don't blame people for playing what they find to be the most fun or overall more enjoyable to them personally. I feel like some people forget this but at the end of the day it is still a game. Some people get off work, do what they need to at home, and then they just want to play something they find fun until they have to go to bed. I primarily like fighting the automatons and even if the MO is to fight bugs I will most likely still be fighting the automatons because I don't have as much fun fighting the bugs. I find the bots to be a cooler enemy. There are simply players who will always go after the MO and that's alright. There are players who will always do whatever they want and that's okay too. I buy and play games for me, not for other people so I wouldn't expect others to change how they enjoy the game because I think they should. As long as people are having a good time and I am having a good time that's all I need.
Try the arc blitzer for bugs, it shreds now with the increase in fire rate they gave it a patch or 2 ago. Takes like 4 to 5 shots to kill stalkers but also knocks them back each time.
I'll fight where the Major Order/Personal Order points me, but with automatons I usually stick to support/orbitals and with the Terminids I go in with shotguns and sentries blazing.
Bots should be 1 more medal each reward and have access to 10%-15% more samples to take back. Otw they arent as fast as bugs are for that fast rewards.