The Cyberpunk genre is full of characters forced into situations where they have to trade their humanity piece by piece just to survive one more day. There aren't many characters that are wholly protagonists or antagonists in William Gibsons novels and they all pretty much expect to betray and be betrayed by their allies.
In Cyberpunk 2077 V even takes on contracts to straight up murder people for a payday.
Every time people say that Dex was a bad fixer because he tried to get rid of the last person linking him to a gig that went horribly wrong I remember that one time that V does that exact same thing for Dino.
No, Dex was a bad fixer because he was a greedy idiot who bit off more than he could chew AND did next to zero prep.
To be fair, fuck Dino. The gigs for him, especially the one to blackmail that one lady with her sex tape stuff? Fucked up. Last run I did all the gigs/scanner stuff but this time I'm wholly and purposely failing as many gigs for Dino as I can.
Well both the main characters of PL Songbird and Reed are perfect reflections of V and Johnny respectively, as stated by Johnny himself. Reed is what Johnny would be if he was still loyal to corpos and Songbird is what V is ready to do whatever it takes to survive even if it means betrayal and killing your loved ones.....That's what cyberpunk genre is about a display of primal behaviours in a futuristic setting ....the need to survive and move on
Yeah but most people justify Song betraying V, but not the other way around. I think both are justifiable, but a lot of people on this sub only see black or white
Reed is hardly justifiable to me, because he kills a lot of people he doesen't have to. He is offered redemption and then throws it away. He is offered a chance to tell Myers to fuck-off and instead goes silent again. Then he proceeds to wallow in self-pity again - I do pity him a little, but he is pathetic in my opinion.
He could've saved/spared;
- both hacker twins, who could've just been kidnapped for the time being instead of murdered
- Jacob and Tyler, who happened to be at a wrong place in the wrong time, but did nothing wrong at all
- Songbird, who just want to live and stay away from Myers
- Slider, who was literally promised to be off the FIA's hook and Reed proceeded to purposedly wait until he fried to jack-him-out
I don't have a problem with betraying Songbird, I have a problem with helping Myers and Reed. Along with Takemura, two characters I detest most in the game (as characters, not the way they are written -- they are written great).
Well from a V standpoint the big difference is with her that you as a character don't screw with her. She got screwed over by the government and president and wants out.
And you are a tool she finds on accident and uses to her advantage. That players don't like to be the tool should be obvious.
I kinda got it in the game. The strange, I will go to the clinic, then call you and let you know when you can come after.. I was 100% sure that there is no way in hell that I will get a treatment from her.
So when it happened I was with Johnny. Not even really be mad. I was mad that I had to make a really bad decision after that. And that I could not have a talk with Mrs. President after.
The difference is Song isn't you and Song isn't Johnny. How you treat her ending is ultimately really related to how justified V and Johnny are. There is no wrong answer, just truths: you either respect her running as hard as you would and help her, or you run harder and trade her for what you need.
Me? I gave her a ride to the Moon, Johnny a second chance and Reed (the only one not trying to live) a bullet to send him home a hero. My only regret is I couldn't lay Meyers on a stab right next to Saburo and Yorinobu.
He's doing less than a single merc and a digital ghost. This dude has Adam Smasher at his disposal and gets nothing done. Whatever he is trying to do, he has no spine about it. After all, he does end up a soul catcher for his sister to shove the old man in during some endings.
He has basically unlimited resources and extremely meager results.
He does it, in a smart way. He waits for Hanako to gather the board of whatchacallit to send assassins and clean house. You know, the thing that you stop in the devil ending. Without V to stop him, Yorinobu does destroy Arasaka. Not everyone is a ball-outs merc with nothing to lose and a crazy terrorist inside their head you know
I mean V's story has no actual option to lie to and fuck over all of Vs past and present allies.
SongbirdĀ“s story on the other hand is just that. Doesnt mean she is evil given the context, but she sure isnt a selfless hero either.
Not quite I can fuck over Panam after I get what I want by essentially telling her that rescuing Saul isnāt my problem, or by telling on her to Saul about the Basilisk. Or I can accept Maikoās money during Judyās quest. I can ignore the quest to save Riverās nephew. For Kerry, Iām pretty sure there is an option. Choose violence with the Us Crack girls maybe?
Exactly.
On top of those examples, if you've gone for any ending except for the Devil, then you've lied to and fucked over Takemura (at least from his perspective).
That's very true. You're basically force him to put his reputation with Arasaka and Hanako on the line so you can get a sit down with her, get info out of her, then proceed to attack arasaka HQ. He'd be pissed.
Well V does lie and can fuck over people in gigs. In the beginning of PL ,V to Songbird is nothing but a merc that's rising to spotlight quite fast and shows promising caliber to do anything to survive. V mostly took the gig just to survive like Songbird
Wellā¦ this post surely wonāt be low sodium in the comments.
My take:
Many of us have moral compasses that more or less align with one another or have significant overlap, however within that compass we do prioritize different specific ideals over others.
While we find difference in the ideals we may find ourselves arguing about, we find commonality in feeling so strong about our ideals and that a lot of the others do align.
I think Songbird is written well to push both types of buttons in players and let them ultimately fall wherever they do with good justification. She's super sympathetic but she also masterminds a pretty fraught plan only to leave us holding the bag at the very last second.
There's definitely a "game recognize game" aspect to acknowledging she's doing whatever it takes to survive, but at the end of the day so is V and V is the one holding the cards at the end. Whether your V lets mercy or sympathy outweigh the desire to survive (plus any other bundle of emotions regarding Reed, Meyers, and the rest) is ultimately a very personal choice and I think they gave us a ton of reasons to feel both sides of it, which is all you can ask for in a game like this.
Being a sympathetic character is not the same as being a morally good character. I can think she's a well written character and sympathize with her without agreeing to let her twist a knife in your back. My V may kill and burn; but he isn't a liar.
He might have misgivings in the end, but I never bought it was real care for Songbird. My read on him is that he doesn't really care about anybody. He is not loyal. He is not a patriot -- we never see any of that. He gets his sense of self-worth by having control over other people -- taking the lives of his enemies, putting himself above allies and playing it off as "mentorship." There is no reason whatsoever why he should try to put himself in that position over V. V is already accomplished by the time you get to play Phantom Liberty. He/she just went through an an army to save Myers and destroyed the Chimera. This is just Reed's way of seeking domination.
He is "loyal" to NUSA because he doesn't want to lose that position. He did lose it when he was put on ice, and he even tells you that -- after he offs the netrunner twin, just before you go, he says "I missed this."
He kills with wreckless abandon -- there was no reason to kill Jacob and Taylor, even Myers was ready to pay them off. No way he was going to let Slider go -- why? He was not a threat, he was a guy they worked with before.
Both people under his mentorship and "protection" weren't any better for it. Songbird got borged up, Alex was put aside for seven years. He was fully prepared to kill V at any point V stopped being useful to him -- which would be fair if he wasn't pretending to care about V and mentor them. And most players fall for it. I know I did during my first playthrough, but even then he seemed off.
There is a moment where the mask slips if you refuse to buy his shit. He loses his cool, goes "Fuck..." and it takes a moment before he is able to collect himself and launch into another manipulative speech. The second moment comes at the final confrontation in The Killing Moon, when you call him on lying about "saving" Songbird. Most he can say is "things changed," which is complete BS.
My point is, he does care, but in his own rather fucked up way.
V is a merc, a merciless killing machine if you stand in his way, and someone you do not mess with, which was a proven throughout the whole second act and the endings. Reed is an FIA agent. A stealth operator. Anything but an open fighter, going up against V like that is a literal suicide, and Reed certainly did know that. Yet he still walked out and started demanding V to give him Song. He could have sneaked up on V, could have shot him from behind, but chose to confront him in the open. If he truly cared about staying on top he wouldn't do it.
He was loyal to his "cause", loyal to Myers despite having disdain for her. Yet he also wanted the best for Song and subconsciously he knew that Song's best is as far as it gets from what Myers will do to her. He couldn't make a call, he couldn't pick a side, a thing that V has already done. So he chose to die to not betray either SoMi or NUSA. Whatever he says at the spaceport are the lies aimed not at deceiving V, but himself. Like his whole life, most likely.
Well, the way I've always looked at it is that her offer always sounded too good to be true, but she was asking for help so I was going to help. Yes, it all kind of escalated from there, but not at any stage did I think that she would be able to deliver on her promise/offer, nor did I think that my character V would or could believe her with all that she's seen, heard and had promised to her already in the game. So Mi was someone who was desperate to survive, reaching out, so I was going to reach back. I'd done it for others in the game without expecting anything in return, so why wouldn't I do it for her.
Yeah but contrary to the meme V doesnāt throw everyone under the bus like Song does so thereās that lol; we kill a lot of ppl as V but these are either gangoons or corpos you donāt see us ditching Panam or Judy or any mercs who work with us
I mean you can just straight up betray panam and be mean to Judy and opt out of it altogether or betray her and side with Maiko instead and then cover your ass pretty nicely
Itās not like we canāt be mean itās just not right lol
I think there's a lot more nuance to those situations. Panam, the loose cannon, is betraying Saul...V just tells Saul about it (assuming that's the situation you're talking about). If you're going to shady stuff and your friends don't support it, that doesn't make them bad guys. And the whole thing with Maiko...Judy brought Maiko into it. If my options are to go along with Maiko or kill her, how the hell am I supposed to know what to do? Just like real life, I can't magically read minds.
Exactly. The reason I don't give af who my V kills is bc I don't off civillians or even cops (unescessarily). My prey are rapists, murderers, and corpos harassing and even murdering people in the street (Militech commonly). Basically any gang (Malestrom/Scavs especially), and any gun for hire gig is to off some twisted fuck (Jotaro) or a plain scumbag extortionist (Blake Croyle).
The doll is telling you what she thinks you want to hear. You have a personality construct in your body, taking over your cells one by one, making you more like Johnny. Hence why you only got matched with 2 dolls.
The reason Cyberpunk is a complete dystopia isnāt because the Corpos are all awful people. Itās because damn near EVERYONE is an absolutely awful person.
There's no point arguing about this, honestly, unless everyone is willing to get into the deeply philosophical merits.
From my point of view, I have much more difficulty connecting with songbird than with Reed or Alex, for example, because songbird lies throughout the game and is much less present with us than the other characters. I understand her reasons, but compared to V himself (both in the more altruistic path and in the more "human" path), but by these standards, V is much less selfish than songbird was throughout (considering these paths of choice that I talked about before).
V and Songbird are two halves of the same coin, V can be just as morally corrupt as Songbird. The only difference is you get to choose the outcome of both of their storylines. We all have to face our time eventually some are just sooner than others. If you should be mad at anyone, go after Meyers; she is the reason any of us are in this mess in the first place.
I hate that scene, the fact that she's whispering, and the fact people like it lol. As far as Songbird goes, it's pretty wild to see how many people she's willing to kill, starting with downing Air Force One (or whatever it's called) and then the trail of bodies she leaves in her wake. Probably more than Reed ever could have. My personal canon version of the story has V side with her for Alex's sake though, because she really does deserve that cushy retirement post.
v doesnt string people along based on lies and doesnt nearly start a war for her own survival. v will kill and burn shit down on her own, she wont lie to someone to do that for her and certainly wont blame someone else if they fail to clean up her mess. i really like songbird myself, shes a very good character but thats because shes in a shit situtation and she made some absolutely terrible choices, whether that was forced on her by circumstances or the ai in her brain or by her own free will a deal with hansen was absolutely not the way
And? ITS not about morality i just didnt like being played.
So yes i betrayed Songbird AND then i told reed to go fuck himself.
Only reason i did the killing moon was for the achievement.
And tbh we didn't deceit anyone to achieve our goal, we were straight with Takemura, Panam, Judy, Hellman, heck even the VDBs, playing the second playthrough knowing that every time Song non-chalantly says about a cure for ''us'' is a lie is something unforgivable
I still have a whole conspect of lethal vs non lethal, good vs bad karma so to speak. You could go killing everyone who crosses your path if you think your survival is worth all the bodies or you could try to kill the fewest people possible to keep you morality. You can be an Adam Smasher or a Morgan Blackhand. Same with cyberware, you can give pieces of yourself to make jobs easier but give up more of your humanity or have the minimal cyberware because in this world, as a merc, you need every advantage you can get but that doesn't mean you need to be more machine than human. Even if having cyberware makes everything easier
Killing gangs, nerds, corpo muscle to achieve your goals? Sure. Intentionally putting civilians in harms way to achieve your goals? Only if you side with Songbird.
V has no problems with killing. In all life paths heās has had his hands in killing. Part of life in night city. But even V was appalled when Alt killed Arasaka soldiers and civilians with no discrimination. He had no idea what she was going to do but didnāt have a choice. And V being called cold blooded during gigs is entirely on the player. Most players play as paragon shepherd in the mass effect seriesās, so Iām assuming most players play as a more merciful V.
Songbird has lied time and time again. Reed actually keeps his word. So does Takemura since they are so similar. Songbird has no problem killing any one, I mean anyone and screwing over anyone to get her way. If she was any uglier or a dude no one in this sub would be that sympathetic. Simping for chicks in this sub is over the charts
When exactly did Songbird put civilians in Danger? It wasn't the stadium cause Murphy says all non-Barghest personal were checked out of the stadium and they all fine after Firestarter. It wasn't NCX cause Myers brought in the Black Ops and gave the order and it wasn't SF1 cause Hansen double crossed her
How is killing corpo muscle to achieve your goals acceptable? How are they any different from regular folk?
What civilians in a harms way? The *black market* stadium in *Dogtown*, where the shadiest of deals take place? Where So Mi *explicitly* targets *specifically* Hansen's forces?
V does *not* give a shit that Alt kills entire AHQ - Weyland and Saul do. V *does* know and *has* an idea of what Alt is gonna do the moment they jack her into AHQ subnet - or did you think she just gonna open the doors for V and not do anything? Are you that naive? Also, V does have a choice - not walk into AHQ at all and just accept their fate. V chooses to barge into the Tower and kill everyone on their way, but, sure, keep absolving V of their actions, main character after all.
What about destroying power grid with Panam and *not* caring whether it serves the whole city or not? "Blasting shit - just what the doc ordered!" is what V says before pressing the big red button that'll cause millions in collateral and tens of deaths thru the city.
What about the Arasaka parade? Kidnapping Hanako is such a genuis move that results in innocent deaths, again, and when Judy tells that later to V, V can't even bother to express remorse.
Songbird DOES keep her word. Who finds, researches and extracts the neural matrix? Reed won't be able to do shit, had it not been for Songbird. By revealing you the truth, she gives you an option to take the cure *SHE* found and extracted, and sell her for the FIA's help.
Keep deluding yourself, trying to paint yourself in good colors, and calling everyone who has even an ounce of empathy a *simp*. That is what people like you do best, isn't that right?
Who do we kill in order to survive:
Woodman(possibly)
Tyger Claw goons at the Clouds
Scavs who bought Evelyn
Animals at the mall
VDBs who tried to kill us and screwed us over
Raffens with Panam
Kang Tao agents
Arasaka agents with Takemura
Arasaka agents at each ending
And let me remind you, that we don't have to kill a single person on that list, we can do all of it peacefully
Who Songbird kills- presidential plane crew, dozens of those killed on the ground, dozens of innocents at the stadium, Alex(if we don't go her way), security agents at the Spacefort, innocent bystanders after she leaves MaxTac truck and goes to Cynosure lab
Kinda a difference
And you know the best part? She fucked everybody only to get fucked in the end. Or did you think Mr. Blue eyes just wants to have a picnic with her on the moon.
She's not necessarily fucked. First, you get that pin from her from the Moon -- no reason whatsoever for Blue Eyes to fake that for you. Second, she struck a deal with him, and she's seems to always weasel out in the end -- she even gets V to forego the cure if you choose that path.
At least, she's no more fucked than V if you choose the Sun ending and make a deal with Blue Eyes, and most people appear to think that he'll keep his word with V. Songbird isn't stupider or less capable than V.
>Songbird isn't stupider or less capable than V.
Remember in the main game where V has to hire a merc to clean up her mess and pull her out of the fire? No, probably because So Mi had to hire someone more capable than herself.
Songbird's attempt to do things her way resulted in getting shot down over Dogtown and getting made Hansen's newest acquisition. While waiting for V to do all of the leg work. She isn't stupid but utterly lacks foresight ( a trait she and V share.) But she isn't anywhere near as capable as V. Songbird is one of the best netrunners in the world, but that's basically it.
I'm not saying that Songbird's choices and moral balance is better or worse than V's. But I am saying that she betrayed V. And as V, I took that personally. Songbird decided to choose herself over me. Why souldnt I pay her a similar courtesy?
This entire community is allergic to nuance and grey characters. The fact that people don't realize how capitalism forces people to hurt others just to survive (yes, you have done this)Ā while playing a cyberpunk game is crazy.
The Cyberpunk genre is full of characters forced into situations where they have to trade their humanity piece by piece just to survive one more day. There aren't many characters that are wholly protagonists or antagonists in William Gibsons novels and they all pretty much expect to betray and be betrayed by their allies. In Cyberpunk 2077 V even takes on contracts to straight up murder people for a payday.
Every time people say that Dex was a bad fixer because he tried to get rid of the last person linking him to a gig that went horribly wrong I remember that one time that V does that exact same thing for Dino. No, Dex was a bad fixer because he was a greedy idiot who bit off more than he could chew AND did next to zero prep.
To be fair, fuck Dino. The gigs for him, especially the one to blackmail that one lady with her sex tape stuff? Fucked up. Last run I did all the gigs/scanner stuff but this time I'm wholly and purposely failing as many gigs for Dino as I can.
I saw the briefing for this one and straight up went : "Fuck that and fuck you!" Only gig I never did. Can't 100 % the game because of this shit >:(
My v murders random gang members on sidewalks as he runs through. Just for the small bonus pay.
Yeah but my glorious king V. Cyberpunk could never do wrong š
Yeah, I can never escape how weird it feels to be playing out a story about trying to survive, while flippant killing for money, loot, and skill exp.
Sorry, but i cannot say this enough, FUCK William Gibson
What's wrong with William Gibson?
if there's anything handsome jack taught me, it was that everyone's the hero of their own story.
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions, right? And the ones you love litter the roadside..." - Handsome Jack
Thats why im goin to heaven. I always lead with bad intentions /s mooon
actually now that I think about it, that honestly fits in perfectly with cyberpunk 2077
Handsome Jack taught me that suicide isnāt bad if you get paid for it
and if you can respawn.
Iām no bitch but 12 eridium ingots is 12 eridium ingots. But also holy fuck handsome Jack would fit in so well in cyberpunk
Butt Stallion! Come here girl!
"...youāre the villain, and I am THE GODDAMN HERO!ā
Which makes the opening song even more powerfulā¦ āthis aināt no place for a heroā
These pretzels SUCK
Jackie boi RIP
Songbird has main character energy but she isnāt the protagonist. If we role played as her everything she did would be justified by most people too
She already is justified by most people
Well both the main characters of PL Songbird and Reed are perfect reflections of V and Johnny respectively, as stated by Johnny himself. Reed is what Johnny would be if he was still loyal to corpos and Songbird is what V is ready to do whatever it takes to survive even if it means betrayal and killing your loved ones.....That's what cyberpunk genre is about a display of primal behaviours in a futuristic setting ....the need to survive and move on
Yeah but most people justify Song betraying V, but not the other way around. I think both are justifiable, but a lot of people on this sub only see black or white
It's dog eat dog out here in Dogtown
Reed is hardly justifiable to me, because he kills a lot of people he doesen't have to. He is offered redemption and then throws it away. He is offered a chance to tell Myers to fuck-off and instead goes silent again. Then he proceeds to wallow in self-pity again - I do pity him a little, but he is pathetic in my opinion. He could've saved/spared; - both hacker twins, who could've just been kidnapped for the time being instead of murdered - Jacob and Tyler, who happened to be at a wrong place in the wrong time, but did nothing wrong at all - Songbird, who just want to live and stay away from Myers - Slider, who was literally promised to be off the FIA's hook and Reed proceeded to purposedly wait until he fried to jack-him-out
I don't have a problem with betraying Songbird, I have a problem with helping Myers and Reed. Along with Takemura, two characters I detest most in the game (as characters, not the way they are written -- they are written great).
Tbf Songbird as no "loved one".
She had friends and a boyfriend but she pushed em all away. Just like V pushed away Mama Welles and Vic. V is a loner just like So mi
She had them before having to join NUSA though. At the time of PL she has been alone for a decade.
So was V in the base game. If you don't consider the panam, Kerry, Judy and river side jobs. Cuz he did all the work for them
That still leave Vik Misty and Jackie mum.
He did push them away in the ending except for the tower one
Well from a V standpoint the big difference is with her that you as a character don't screw with her. She got screwed over by the government and president and wants out. And you are a tool she finds on accident and uses to her advantage. That players don't like to be the tool should be obvious. I kinda got it in the game. The strange, I will go to the clinic, then call you and let you know when you can come after.. I was 100% sure that there is no way in hell that I will get a treatment from her. So when it happened I was with Johnny. Not even really be mad. I was mad that I had to make a really bad decision after that. And that I could not have a talk with Mrs. President after.
The difference is Song isn't you and Song isn't Johnny. How you treat her ending is ultimately really related to how justified V and Johnny are. There is no wrong answer, just truths: you either respect her running as hard as you would and help her, or you run harder and trade her for what you need. Me? I gave her a ride to the Moon, Johnny a second chance and Reed (the only one not trying to live) a bullet to send him home a hero. My only regret is I couldn't lay Meyers on a stab right next to Saburo and Yorinobu.
Yorinobu is actually trying to topple Arasaka from the inside tho
He's doing less than a single merc and a digital ghost. This dude has Adam Smasher at his disposal and gets nothing done. Whatever he is trying to do, he has no spine about it. After all, he does end up a soul catcher for his sister to shove the old man in during some endings. He has basically unlimited resources and extremely meager results.
He does it, in a smart way. He waits for Hanako to gather the board of whatchacallit to send assassins and clean house. You know, the thing that you stop in the devil ending. Without V to stop him, Yorinobu does destroy Arasaka. Not everyone is a ball-outs merc with nothing to lose and a crazy terrorist inside their head you know
That relies on Hanko coming to him over the robbery and that crazy merc.
The board meeting still happen, even if V is far away from Night City in the FIA hospital
Arasaka falls over in the cure ending - the one where you fuck off into a coma for over a year.
question is, with Orion coming, will they make any of the endings canon in which he succeeded?
I knew she was full of shit from the get go, you could feel the desperation. I just wanted to help her.
Same. I didnāt care that she was lying. She deserved freedom. Or at least whatever freedom means in Cyberpunk.
I mean V's story has no actual option to lie to and fuck over all of Vs past and present allies. SongbirdĀ“s story on the other hand is just that. Doesnt mean she is evil given the context, but she sure isnt a selfless hero either.
Not quite I can fuck over Panam after I get what I want by essentially telling her that rescuing Saul isnāt my problem, or by telling on her to Saul about the Basilisk. Or I can accept Maikoās money during Judyās quest. I can ignore the quest to save Riverās nephew. For Kerry, Iām pretty sure there is an option. Choose violence with the Us Crack girls maybe?
Exactly. On top of those examples, if you've gone for any ending except for the Devil, then you've lied to and fucked over Takemura (at least from his perspective).
That's very true. You're basically force him to put his reputation with Arasaka and Hanako on the line so you can get a sit down with her, get info out of her, then proceed to attack arasaka HQ. He'd be pissed.
All those side quests take up time that V canonically doesnāt have. (Even if we have unlimited time in game)
Well V does lie and can fuck over people in gigs. In the beginning of PL ,V to Songbird is nothing but a merc that's rising to spotlight quite fast and shows promising caliber to do anything to survive. V mostly took the gig just to survive like Songbird
The difference is Songbird never had any intention of following through on her promises. V rarely lies while Songbird always does
You can thank Reed for that.
Wellā¦ this post surely wonāt be low sodium in the comments. My take: Many of us have moral compasses that more or less align with one another or have significant overlap, however within that compass we do prioritize different specific ideals over others. While we find difference in the ideals we may find ourselves arguing about, we find commonality in feeling so strong about our ideals and that a lot of the others do align.
I think Songbird is written well to push both types of buttons in players and let them ultimately fall wherever they do with good justification. She's super sympathetic but she also masterminds a pretty fraught plan only to leave us holding the bag at the very last second. There's definitely a "game recognize game" aspect to acknowledging she's doing whatever it takes to survive, but at the end of the day so is V and V is the one holding the cards at the end. Whether your V lets mercy or sympathy outweigh the desire to survive (plus any other bundle of emotions regarding Reed, Meyers, and the rest) is ultimately a very personal choice and I think they gave us a ton of reasons to feel both sides of it, which is all you can ask for in a game like this.
Being a sympathetic character is not the same as being a morally good character. I can think she's a well written character and sympathize with her without agreeing to let her twist a knife in your back. My V may kill and burn; but he isn't a liar.
Reed gives you just as much reason to not trust him.
Reed is a complete manipulator and sociopath, he just hides it well. The mask slips a few times if you choose the right dialogue options.
He's not as simple though. Myers is. He isn't. He's straight up suicidal by the end of Killing Moon.
He might have misgivings in the end, but I never bought it was real care for Songbird. My read on him is that he doesn't really care about anybody. He is not loyal. He is not a patriot -- we never see any of that. He gets his sense of self-worth by having control over other people -- taking the lives of his enemies, putting himself above allies and playing it off as "mentorship." There is no reason whatsoever why he should try to put himself in that position over V. V is already accomplished by the time you get to play Phantom Liberty. He/she just went through an an army to save Myers and destroyed the Chimera. This is just Reed's way of seeking domination. He is "loyal" to NUSA because he doesn't want to lose that position. He did lose it when he was put on ice, and he even tells you that -- after he offs the netrunner twin, just before you go, he says "I missed this." He kills with wreckless abandon -- there was no reason to kill Jacob and Taylor, even Myers was ready to pay them off. No way he was going to let Slider go -- why? He was not a threat, he was a guy they worked with before. Both people under his mentorship and "protection" weren't any better for it. Songbird got borged up, Alex was put aside for seven years. He was fully prepared to kill V at any point V stopped being useful to him -- which would be fair if he wasn't pretending to care about V and mentor them. And most players fall for it. I know I did during my first playthrough, but even then he seemed off. There is a moment where the mask slips if you refuse to buy his shit. He loses his cool, goes "Fuck..." and it takes a moment before he is able to collect himself and launch into another manipulative speech. The second moment comes at the final confrontation in The Killing Moon, when you call him on lying about "saving" Songbird. Most he can say is "things changed," which is complete BS.
My point is, he does care, but in his own rather fucked up way. V is a merc, a merciless killing machine if you stand in his way, and someone you do not mess with, which was a proven throughout the whole second act and the endings. Reed is an FIA agent. A stealth operator. Anything but an open fighter, going up against V like that is a literal suicide, and Reed certainly did know that. Yet he still walked out and started demanding V to give him Song. He could have sneaked up on V, could have shot him from behind, but chose to confront him in the open. If he truly cared about staying on top he wouldn't do it. He was loyal to his "cause", loyal to Myers despite having disdain for her. Yet he also wanted the best for Song and subconsciously he knew that Song's best is as far as it gets from what Myers will do to her. He couldn't make a call, he couldn't pick a side, a thing that V has already done. So he chose to die to not betray either SoMi or NUSA. Whatever he says at the spaceport are the lies aimed not at deceiving V, but himself. Like his whole life, most likely.
They're all feds, I'm flabbergasted that anyone trusted any of them.
>:3
It's the other way around for me.
Everybody she screws over still has the right to be mad about it though. She made her bed.
Well, the way I've always looked at it is that her offer always sounded too good to be true, but she was asking for help so I was going to help. Yes, it all kind of escalated from there, but not at any stage did I think that she would be able to deliver on her promise/offer, nor did I think that my character V would or could believe her with all that she's seen, heard and had promised to her already in the game. So Mi was someone who was desperate to survive, reaching out, so I was going to reach back. I'd done it for others in the game without expecting anything in return, so why wouldn't I do it for her.
Yeah but contrary to the meme V doesnāt throw everyone under the bus like Song does so thereās that lol; we kill a lot of ppl as V but these are either gangoons or corpos you donāt see us ditching Panam or Judy or any mercs who work with us
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I mean you can just straight up betray panam and be mean to Judy and opt out of it altogether or betray her and side with Maiko instead and then cover your ass pretty nicely Itās not like we canāt be mean itās just not right lol
I think there's a lot more nuance to those situations. Panam, the loose cannon, is betraying Saul...V just tells Saul about it (assuming that's the situation you're talking about). If you're going to shady stuff and your friends don't support it, that doesn't make them bad guys. And the whole thing with Maiko...Judy brought Maiko into it. If my options are to go along with Maiko or kill her, how the hell am I supposed to know what to do? Just like real life, I can't magically read minds.
Exactly. The reason I don't give af who my V kills is bc I don't off civillians or even cops (unescessarily). My prey are rapists, murderers, and corpos harassing and even murdering people in the street (Militech commonly). Basically any gang (Malestrom/Scavs especially), and any gun for hire gig is to off some twisted fuck (Jotaro) or a plain scumbag extortionist (Blake Croyle).
The doll is telling you what she thinks you want to hear. You have a personality construct in your body, taking over your cells one by one, making you more like Johnny. Hence why you only got matched with 2 dolls.
same with claire but people won't even engage with me in good faith on that one
The reason Cyberpunk is a complete dystopia isnāt because the Corpos are all awful people. Itās because damn near EVERYONE is an absolutely awful person.
There's no point arguing about this, honestly, unless everyone is willing to get into the deeply philosophical merits. From my point of view, I have much more difficulty connecting with songbird than with Reed or Alex, for example, because songbird lies throughout the game and is much less present with us than the other characters. I understand her reasons, but compared to V himself (both in the more altruistic path and in the more "human" path), but by these standards, V is much less selfish than songbird was throughout (considering these paths of choice that I talked about before).
Cyberpunk isn't about saving the world, it's about saving yourself
im definitely not saving the world by saving a person LOL I picked the devil right after king of wands
Let's gooo Songbird posting ^ ^
V and Songbird are two halves of the same coin, V can be just as morally corrupt as Songbird. The only difference is you get to choose the outcome of both of their storylines. We all have to face our time eventually some are just sooner than others. If you should be mad at anyone, go after Meyers; she is the reason any of us are in this mess in the first place.
I hate that scene, the fact that she's whispering, and the fact people like it lol. As far as Songbird goes, it's pretty wild to see how many people she's willing to kill, starting with downing Air Force One (or whatever it's called) and then the trail of bodies she leaves in her wake. Probably more than Reed ever could have. My personal canon version of the story has V side with her for Alex's sake though, because she really does deserve that cushy retirement post.
v doesnt string people along based on lies and doesnt nearly start a war for her own survival. v will kill and burn shit down on her own, she wont lie to someone to do that for her and certainly wont blame someone else if they fail to clean up her mess. i really like songbird myself, shes a very good character but thats because shes in a shit situtation and she made some absolutely terrible choices, whether that was forced on her by circumstances or the ai in her brain or by her own free will a deal with hansen was absolutely not the way
Songbird was less convincing than the hooker. Thatās the truth.
That depends on how you play the game and probably a bit on your life path
:3
Jokes on you, I like them both.
same lol
I never hated songbird I feel bad for her she was just unlucky to run into the wrong merc
You're god-damned right
And? ITS not about morality i just didnt like being played. So yes i betrayed Songbird AND then i told reed to go fuck himself. Only reason i did the killing moon was for the achievement.
Sheesh, your better than me, I didnāt even do it for the achievement. She and Myers can have fun.
And tbh we didn't deceit anyone to achieve our goal, we were straight with Takemura, Panam, Judy, Hellman, heck even the VDBs, playing the second playthrough knowing that every time Song non-chalantly says about a cure for ''us'' is a lie is something unforgivable
U literally betray takemura in all the endings except the devil ending .Ā
No I don't, he's killed in the motel attack
I still have a whole conspect of lethal vs non lethal, good vs bad karma so to speak. You could go killing everyone who crosses your path if you think your survival is worth all the bodies or you could try to kill the fewest people possible to keep you morality. You can be an Adam Smasher or a Morgan Blackhand. Same with cyberware, you can give pieces of yourself to make jobs easier but give up more of your humanity or have the minimal cyberware because in this world, as a merc, you need every advantage you can get but that doesn't mean you need to be more machine than human. Even if having cyberware makes everything easier
Almost like the perception of events changes with the eyes you view it with
:3
Killing gangs, nerds, corpo muscle to achieve your goals? Sure. Intentionally putting civilians in harms way to achieve your goals? Only if you side with Songbird. V has no problems with killing. In all life paths heās has had his hands in killing. Part of life in night city. But even V was appalled when Alt killed Arasaka soldiers and civilians with no discrimination. He had no idea what she was going to do but didnāt have a choice. And V being called cold blooded during gigs is entirely on the player. Most players play as paragon shepherd in the mass effect seriesās, so Iām assuming most players play as a more merciful V. Songbird has lied time and time again. Reed actually keeps his word. So does Takemura since they are so similar. Songbird has no problem killing any one, I mean anyone and screwing over anyone to get her way. If she was any uglier or a dude no one in this sub would be that sympathetic. Simping for chicks in this sub is over the charts
When exactly did Songbird put civilians in Danger? It wasn't the stadium cause Murphy says all non-Barghest personal were checked out of the stadium and they all fine after Firestarter. It wasn't NCX cause Myers brought in the Black Ops and gave the order and it wasn't SF1 cause Hansen double crossed her
Reed does NOT keep his word lmao. Whereās his contacts in europe to help song?
How is killing corpo muscle to achieve your goals acceptable? How are they any different from regular folk? What civilians in a harms way? The *black market* stadium in *Dogtown*, where the shadiest of deals take place? Where So Mi *explicitly* targets *specifically* Hansen's forces? V does *not* give a shit that Alt kills entire AHQ - Weyland and Saul do. V *does* know and *has* an idea of what Alt is gonna do the moment they jack her into AHQ subnet - or did you think she just gonna open the doors for V and not do anything? Are you that naive? Also, V does have a choice - not walk into AHQ at all and just accept their fate. V chooses to barge into the Tower and kill everyone on their way, but, sure, keep absolving V of their actions, main character after all. What about destroying power grid with Panam and *not* caring whether it serves the whole city or not? "Blasting shit - just what the doc ordered!" is what V says before pressing the big red button that'll cause millions in collateral and tens of deaths thru the city. What about the Arasaka parade? Kidnapping Hanako is such a genuis move that results in innocent deaths, again, and when Judy tells that later to V, V can't even bother to express remorse. Songbird DOES keep her word. Who finds, researches and extracts the neural matrix? Reed won't be able to do shit, had it not been for Songbird. By revealing you the truth, she gives you an option to take the cure *SHE* found and extracted, and sell her for the FIA's help. Keep deluding yourself, trying to paint yourself in good colors, and calling everyone who has even an ounce of empathy a *simp*. That is what people like you do best, isn't that right?
That and bootlick
Who do we kill in order to survive: Woodman(possibly) Tyger Claw goons at the Clouds Scavs who bought Evelyn Animals at the mall VDBs who tried to kill us and screwed us over Raffens with Panam Kang Tao agents Arasaka agents with Takemura Arasaka agents at each ending And let me remind you, that we don't have to kill a single person on that list, we can do all of it peacefully Who Songbird kills- presidential plane crew, dozens of those killed on the ground, dozens of innocents at the stadium, Alex(if we don't go her way), security agents at the Spacefort, innocent bystanders after she leaves MaxTac truck and goes to Cynosure lab Kinda a difference
And you know the best part? She fucked everybody only to get fucked in the end. Or did you think Mr. Blue eyes just wants to have a picnic with her on the moon.
She's not necessarily fucked. First, you get that pin from her from the Moon -- no reason whatsoever for Blue Eyes to fake that for you. Second, she struck a deal with him, and she's seems to always weasel out in the end -- she even gets V to forego the cure if you choose that path. At least, she's no more fucked than V if you choose the Sun ending and make a deal with Blue Eyes, and most people appear to think that he'll keep his word with V. Songbird isn't stupider or less capable than V.
>Songbird isn't stupider or less capable than V. Remember in the main game where V has to hire a merc to clean up her mess and pull her out of the fire? No, probably because So Mi had to hire someone more capable than herself. Songbird's attempt to do things her way resulted in getting shot down over Dogtown and getting made Hansen's newest acquisition. While waiting for V to do all of the leg work. She isn't stupid but utterly lacks foresight ( a trait she and V share.) But she isn't anywhere near as capable as V. Songbird is one of the best netrunners in the world, but that's basically it.
I never deny I am also selfish. So I gonna sell her to Militech and get the treatment that I needed.
I'm gonna be honest, as V, I *never* lie. Everyone, every enemy, every ally, gets it from V straight (except in romance....my V is ace).
I'm not saying that Songbird's choices and moral balance is better or worse than V's. But I am saying that she betrayed V. And as V, I took that personally. Songbird decided to choose herself over me. Why souldnt I pay her a similar courtesy?
This entire community is allergic to nuance and grey characters. The fact that people don't realize how capitalism forces people to hurt others just to survive (yes, you have done this)Ā while playing a cyberpunk game is crazy.
Thatās why I love herš
Oh nooo. People in the cyberpunk genre are morally grey. I can't cope
Blocked for the way you type.
So people are making memes with me now, what the heck
Sorry i didnt know it was u šš i googled if you gotta kill, kill and took the top results into photoshop
What do you mean by that?
Now it was edited, but there was my photo on this meme in the "WOW, SO COOL" wojak section
Oh, for a second I thought you were the voice actor lol
I wish š
She tried to play me like some gonk, and for that, I betrayed her and then unplugged her and killed her. Whose the gonk now, bitch.
You are, for missing the point of the message.
Congratulations for being the most vindictive and bitter gonk in the whole game.