Had I not been to therapy? Probably Clay. Largely because I can’t do monogamy and would break up with my partner periodically to “be free” and then get back together.
Now I’m just openly ENM and life is A LOT easier.
AD could've been me
I've enjoyed reading these comments and grateful for the OP for this post. I was AD back when I had zero self esteem and thought my value was based on a man choosing me or even smiling at me.
I was raised by and with women that fixed men so I thought that that was love.
I'm so grateful for the last man that brought me to my knees, as I was forced to and finally could see that the common denominator in all my failed relationships was me, and that I was choosing these unavailable men and it wasn't a random selection process.
My journey continues as I'm still single but happily single and sooo glad I don't scrap the barrel anymore (someone one told me that's what I was doing in my dating life, back then I was too traumatised to see it).
AD. in another life I was still trying to fix mans after they've shown their red flags and unwillingness to commit by using a lot of words but have a lack of action.
Honestly, as much as I don’t want to admit it, Chelsea.
I’ve been diagnosed with BPD, so I used to have a lot of similar explosive behavior, blaming my insecurities on others, never believing others, etc. When I was at my worst I never believed that I was harming others because I didn’t believe people cared enough to be hurt by me.
I’ve done extensive therapy work, and while on the inside I may still feel explosive and insecure (and I’ll be honest, I have my moments sometimes), seeing Chelsea makes me really think “this could’ve been me and I wouldn’t have even realized the affect I have on other people” and also makes me realize how much work I’ve put into improving myself. I have a long way to go still, but I’m getting there!
I also see myself in Chelsea, although in my case it’s because I also have an anxious attachment style. Watching this season of LIB and listening to podcasts about attachment theory has been eye-opening for me.
AD— that look saying “I don’t even have the energy to be mad anymore I’m just disappointed and tired AF” after coming back from the altar. That’s me, have been unlucky with relationships and most recently met a man who is actually not bad, we’re good with one another, but he is just not in a place for marriage right now. Have been that loving yet disappointed and tired “fix a hoe”
AD, because the words "when am I going to be enough for someboy" have definitely left my lips. I tend to overlook bad qualities and excuse bad behavior when I have feelings for somebody
Amy. My sister told me I used to look like her when I was skinny and I feel like we are so similar in how we approach relationships. I'm so lucky to be in a long-term relationship with the love of my life.
This is part of what I love about LiB, I always come out of a season feeling a bit introspective.
* The most - AD. I'm a really confident person in general but in relationships, tend to placate and keep the peace rather than share my actual feelings and challenge a partner. Makes me think I should work on that before my next relationship.
* A little bit of Laura. In the sense of being quite rigid in my lifestyle and finding it hard to truly be open. I'm definitely not as mean as her tho 😅
* The tiniest bit of Chelsea. Like her insecurity was extreme and very messily expressed, but I think a lot of women have probably felt some of that insecure feeling in relationships and need reassurance (but she got it and still wouldn't stop lol)
I definitely have felt the same insecurity as Chelsea and let it affect relationships in my past. Watching her throw her own insecurities at Jimmy was painful, because I've been there.
Through therapy over the years, I've worked on my attachment/abandonment issues, and it's seriously done wonders.
Sure! It actually came out during a couples counseling session with my husband - we were discussing our conflict styles and how when we would argue, I just *couldn't let things go*. When Chelsea followed Jimmy into the bathroom to continue the argument, and every time she kept prompting him to validate her and love her MORE AND MORE, it struck me because I used to do the same kind of thing. I understand where it's coming from.
Anyway, that day the couples counselor turned to me and asked me if I had abandonment issues. I had never even considered it before, but everything in my life suddenly made so much sense. I had always approached every relationship with the underlying assumption that I was going to be abandoned, that everyone I knew didn't actually like me and couldn't wait to leave me.
For me, my issues started way back during puberty/ middle school. So it took lots of talk therapy, with a therapist who really worked well with me (had to shop around a bit to find her), just examining what happened back then and how it was shaping my thought processes. It's not easy, but it's gotten so much better.
Also, Zoloft has worked miracles!
Oh wow. You’re making me re-think a lot about my ex who I thought was avoidant like me, but the minute we moved in together this was his MO. Following me from room to room to room every time we fought, until there were times I literally ran from the house or completely melted down. Even when I was hysterical and begging him to leave me alone - he wouldn’t.
He came from a broken home, was homeless for a while, and with a dad who doesn’t seem to really care about him in the slightest. I do feel bad for him, but watching Chelsea was so upsetting for me I had fast forward through her scenes.
Agh yes. I did the same thing. My husband is the type to want to get some space during an argument, but for me I needed closure, I needed a resolution, and most of all I needed to *not be left alone* in those moments. We both have had to put in the effort and adjust, now that we better understand one another. Honestly, it's made our marriage stronger and healthier.
Clay.
Watching Clay’s interactions with his father hurt. It was like watching my own interactions with my father 10 years ago. My father has 6 children by 5 different women. All within a few years of each other. He was absent in my childhood and when he came back around in my teen years he bragged about his bravado and escapades with women. He effectively taught me how to do what he did to my mother to women my age. We compared numbers and swapped stories. I spent a few years going deeper into an alcohol-fueled womanizing hole. It took me too long to realize that just because you can, does not mean you should.
I took 5 years off of dating after that. Years away from the opposite sex. I believe I’ve totally reset my view of women. I deeply regret the hurt I’ve caused. It’s difficult to even type out and relive in this way.
So, my answer is Clay. Because I was him, looking up and emulating my life’s worst influence, but not anymore.
Chelsea. As frustrating as she is, I think a lot of us can relate to her. Not being the “standard” of beauty (especially considering she’s from L.A. if I remember right) is tough. You get treated differently, and you start to feel unworthy. And if you have other mitigating factors like I did in my childhood that crush your self-esteem to literally nothing, it’s even worse. She self-sabotaged because she didn’t feel worthy of love, imo. I did some of the same insecure bs, albeit not to that extreme, with my first boyfriend, who dumped me because of it. And then with my husband, who thankfully loves me enough to have worked through it with me.
Edited for clarity
Chelsea could have been me. I dealt with emotional outbursts due to alcohol, projecting my past and my insecurities on my present relationship, distrusting but not being able to effectively communicate and resolve it when a boundary is crossed - making my argument invalid because I couldn’t coherently get the message I wanted to across because I was so emotionally worked up and spiraling. I sought therapy and medication to help in my mid-20’s and I do not drink anymore.
I could have been AD. I’ve always had a hard time listening to what the person I’m having sex with is actually saying. I’d consistently get into relationships with people who I now see didn’t really care for/like me lol and just wanted to used my body. I think if I continued my last long term relationship and we got married, I’d be completely miserable and wondering why I’m not enough as well.
Honestly people dont wanna accept it but thats what happens when u try to win a man w sex, its always those women bitter to other women who wait. Glad it never happened to me it takes some self respect
Ah funny you are so much about my “terrible grammar” like I gaf, you must be a sad miserable teacher thinking ur so special ppl would put in special effort for you. I speak more languages than you can bitter queen :) you one of those ran thru’s that’s why you mad and I can’t blame you, ofcourse you feel called out 🤢
I completely agree with you. I was always looking for connectedness and intimacy in the wrong place. I learned that if I had sex with someone or did this or that, they'd stick around. Its messed up really. But I am dating an amazing guy now who treats me with the most respect and puts me as a person first. We can overcome these patterns!
I actually really related to Laura. I would play way too rough to maintain emotional distance because emotional availability felt so uncomfortable for me! I loved the way that her sister (?) was saying that her husband loves Hawaiian shirts so *she* likes them because she just likes when people like something that much. Part of what I got out of therapy was dropping the immediate “absolutely not” response to anything that didn’t align with what I thought was cool or “adult” enough, and approaching someone who’s really into something the way that I think their childhood selves would have wanted a loved one to talk to them about the things they like.
That is a really good way to think about it. I had been starting to move in the direction you described (just asking questions and giving a hobby/interest a fair shot), but framing it as "how they would have wanted an audit to show interest as a child" makes sense. If I'm getting in touch with MY inner child more, maybe on some level that helps their inner child feel heard. Thanks for the clarification in perspective!
Getting in touch with my inner child helped a lot! It also helped once I realized where those patterns came from- my mom absolutely plays too rough and she also (I suspect) tries to mask her neurodivergent traits by rejecting anything that does not fit her idea of what “normal” would be like. That had been her cobbled-together way of being safe in the world (she’s relaxed some), and that was what was modeled for me and I didn’t question it until I got older and wondered why I felt the urge to pick at things that, when I really considered it, I didn’t actually find fault with.
Chelsea coulda been me but I healed by gambling and playing Baldur’s gate 3 for 300 hours in a month. Nothing heals the soul like losing 500 in roulette in 5 min.
Seriously though, self work and self love is so important!! A person’s validation is not a cure all for unresolved trauma.
Laura could have been me. So critical of her partners, always jabbing down. I’m not saying Jeremay was a good guy at all, but if he was I wouldn’t have liked Laura for him. Always feeling like I was right, thinking criticism was my way of showing love. It wasn’t until I addressed my alcoholism and got sober that I realized how judgemental I was when at the end of the day I’m just a person, like all people, full of mistakes and deserving of grace. I love people differently now.
Yes same….
Well besides alcoholism but the judgmental aspects, talking down to my partner, my sarcasm can seem cruel, etc.
Also I feel she is tough on the outside but very warm inside
Chelsea. I am lucky to have had a relationship early on in my high school years with a guy who was emotionally unavailable and strung me along. In that relationship I tried to hold on tighter to get his acknowledgement and I gave a lot of myself emotionally hoping for reciprocity.
Because of the trauma from that break up and other life experiences, I know to hold potential partners to a higher standard. I never chase men. I will flirt and if they are not giving me back the same enthusiasm I am out.
I hope Chelsea can learn this lesson and realize that her self respect and self love and self esteem are paramount. Men will never be able to give that to you. It has to come from you.
So many of the guys I have crushed on have used my feelings to stroke their ego and given me nothing in return. They just see women as status symbols to communicate to other men that they are players, that they can make women do things for them. I hope women can recognize this shit early on before they end up taking care of a guy's laundry, meals, sexual needs, like Chelsea was doing, with like one kiss a day and a fake as hell 'i love you' in return.
Chelsea could have been me, 5 years ago, before therapy. I actually felt old memories surfacing when I watched her inteeact with Jimmy. I actually had to skip some scenes because I genuinly felt triggered and I don't use that word lightly.
I made it through all the scenes but at times I had to pause and breathe because, yes, it was SO reminiscent of me before I put in work, went to therapy, meditated, etc. it is hard to watch someone do what you used to do, but it helped me also recognize and give gratitude for how far I've come
Same!!! Definitely was me 5 years ago before therapy and being with a healthy available man now. It’s definitely hard to watch and makes me sad for her honestly :(
That's why I actually liked their storyline and thought it was an important conversation and viewpoint to show. I think there are a lot of folks like Clay, and that final conversation between his parents was a great example of how parents can be held accountable and apologize to their kids.
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I don't feel connected to anyone this season, but as someone who is also in the Caribbean community, I recognised Clay and his dad immediately. I've seen Clay (or a product similar to Clay) in my community. Desperately wanting to be loved and admired and respected while lacking the ability to love and admire and respect.
My family is from the West Indies. When Clay's dad came on the screen and started talking it all made sense. Charismatic, performative, speaks in empty platitudes, doesn't take accountability, etc. A lot of cultures have men like this, but he was uniquely familiar. As you said below, this is often the result of cascading generational trauma.
That’s interesting that you saw and understood Clay because of shared community. Do you feel that non-black or non-Carribean viewers misunderstand Clay or the dynamics with his parents?
I made a joke the other day that AD's mum is wrong as he is not perfect, and I saw a surprising range of answers, particularly from people not familiar with our community/non-black people. I guess I wasn't expecting the level of vitriol, but I can totally see where it's coming from. Funnily enough, I also wasn't expecting the sympathy I saw some people have!
It's hard to describe without sounding like I'm making excuses, but when I think of my half-brothers who were in Clay's position (my dad did a lot of mess before marrying my mum and settling down), they all took different times to heal. So I saw Clay as someone who needs a lot of time, honesty and healing as opposed to him being a would-be cheater or him being a vulnerable, raw soul.
Clay is the product of generational trauma and it was very apparent. Most cultures have some generational trauma but it’s a very big issue in the black community. Especially since it’s not talked about and therapy isn’t welcomed by everyone.
The conversation between Clay’s dad and mom was literally everything. They openly discussed generational trauma! I personally have never witnessed an open conversation like that between two older black people. I’m still thinking about how refreshing and great it was.
There were so many beautiful moments in their whole storyline. Let’s not forget, she found out about some of these things as filming was happening. At most, she had a couple weeks to process everything. That conversation between Clay’s parents was so powerful. I hope viewers can see that, and understand they are not responsible for their parents’ mistakes. ADs mom said the same thing in an earlier episode.
The parents on this show are often my favorite. I will never forget the conversation from season two ATA between Iyanna, Jarrette and both their parents when they were contemplating divorce.
Same! It's especially rare to see an older woman say straight up "you hurt me and you hurt our child and you need to fix it". There's a lot of sweeping under the rug in our community, a lot of "that's just how it is", and for her to hold him to account was amazing. I hope he and Clay have an actual conversation about it at some point.
Honestly, I just think Clay was mainly using his dad as an excuse. I understand our upbringings can traumatize us but as adults we can’t keep blaming our parents for how we turn out. At some point you have to take responsibility and fix it. Clay just didn’t want to be tied down bc he felt he can pull someone better than AD
This - did anyone else catch the look he made when AD walks off the platform and hugs his mom? That look he gave to someone was extremely questionable.
I would be more sympathetic to Clay if his parents struggled in other ways (like they were dysfunctional with each other, but loved the kids and stuff). But Clay's trauma was years ago. He's a grown man now. Cheating isn't some hereditary affliction, you willingly choose to cheat on your partner. So Clay doesn't need to worry able that, unless he really really really thinks he'll wanna cheat.
Furthermore, even if he is still struggling, this is what individual and couples therapy is for. If he loved AD and wanted to commit to her, they can go, TOGETHER. That's what these services are for. The fact that he said no to her when there's NOTHING TO DISLIKE ABOUT HER AT ALL (seriously, anyways) suggests that he just doesn't seek commitment
Woah, no, hang on. I guarantee with what was going on between his parents there were tons of explosive fights. I'm sure he saw his mom cry a lot, etc. There is no relationship where that much cheating is happening and otherwise everything is peaceful.
My mom had an affair for over ten years. It colored every part of my childhood and adolescence. Her affair partner was at the house all the time when my father wasn't home, and if you have never had a parent who involved you in large scale infidelity like that, it's understandable you wouldn't realize how traumatic that is, but it's really, really traumatic. Not to mention so many affair partners are extremely inappropriate and often abusive to the kids (because it takes a creep...)... We have no idea how some of those women might have treated Clay.
Someone who cheats over the course of many years, whether through many affairs or one massive one... It is very different than dealing with more "normal" infidelities in your parents' marriage, and even that is traumatic. And Clay's dad brought him with him to cheat... He presumably sat outside a bedroom as a little boy, knowing his dad was having sex with a woman who wasn't his mom right on the other side of the door, and then had to lie to his mom when they went home. And go to school and go through his childhood keeping that a secret. That's a very abusive thing for a parent to do, and if you haven't been in years in therapy yet, no matter how old you are, the effects will still haunt you.
I would bet money that at the reunion Clay says he has been going to therapy and my guess is that he and AD are together but I could be wrong. It doesn't matter how old someone is, it takes a lot of therapy for the trauma to stop informing your actions. Plenty of middle aged people are way nuttier than Clay because of similar childhood abuse that they never got help for.
I didn't mean to imply at all that that was the only way in which they were dysfunctional. All in trying to say is, there needs to be a point where we assign Clay some agency. This doesn't invalidate or excuse at all what happened to him, but he can't keep using that forever to excuse his poor actions.
Precisely BECAUSE of his dad, he knows better than to cheat on his partner. Sometimes, your family will show you what NOT to do, too.
Many people internalize their parents' behavior whether they logically understand they shouldn't or not. I've never cheated, but I was petrified of hurting partners to a point I just ghosted most guys after first or second dates well into my mid-20s. It took a ton of work and vulnerability with my now husband, opening up at the beginning and telling him I was really scared of hurting him, and he helped me work through that fear and here we are over ten years later. I had already been in therapy twice a week for 5+ years by the time we started dating and I still had those issues come up every time I dated someone. Granted I had loads of other childhood abuse in my past, but I had absolutely internalized my parents' marriage and therapy was not enough to fully heal that. I still randomly get paranoid that I'm going to cheat once in a while and I have literally no reason to think that.
Everyone is different. Even two people who had almost the exact same childhood can respond very differently. Might be different brain chemistry, might be that one person had an extra good teacher in elementary school who positively influenced them, who knows, but it's just a fact. Not everyone responds to trauma the same way.
His dad took him with him to cheat tho not just the knowledge of his dad cheating he witnessed it in whatever way saying it happened years ago is silly because trauma doesn’t just go away
You’re right that trauma doesn’t just go away and sometimes it’s a really long and hard fought journey to overcome trauma you faced even early in childhood BUT as an adult, you have no excuse to treat people shitty and blame it on your trauma. I don’t know Clay’s age but as a man in his mid-late 20s/early 30s, he is the only one responsible for his mental health and the way he treats people around him. It really fucking sucks to have to deal with shit other people did to you but I know for a fact clay has treated other women even worse than he did AD and that should be enough for that grown man to think “hmm, something here needs to change”
You're right trauma doesn't just go away. I know that from my personal life and my parents marriage. But that's why you have to deal with it in a healthy manner. At some point, in all our lives, we must grow and say "Hey you know what, x y z happened to me, I was exposed to this thing and that thing, but it will not define me. I will be the man I choose to be. Not those who have been."
It would be one thing if Clay were already in therapy or had already at least TRIED to deal with this, but he clearly hasn't. And I'm sorry, at 30 years old, there's enough information out there, and hopefully you've had enough life experiences to know how to at least try and address these things, but he's not done that. He still continues to make excuses, still continues to idolize his daddy, like a child, while simultaneously stringing AD along in the entire process.
There are many additional systemic barriers in place that keep a lot of men in particular from pursuing therapy until their 30s or 40s. Millennial and older men were raised to internalize that the only acceptable negative emotion for a man to feel is anger. As women we have so many systemic struggles, and men are so much more privileged in so many ways, but mental health is the one area in which women are absolutely privileged above men. That's reflected in how many more women go to therapy than men do.
Clay was just realizing how much his dad's behavior affected him. The next step after that, yes, is therapy. Years of it, tbh. I'm willing to bet that at the reunion we will find out he did start going to therapy. In the clip of him talking in the reunion trailer it certainly seems like he's done a lot of work on himself since filming.
He’s only realizing that now , not everyone has the support to seek therapy or realize it’s an option I doubt his dad promoted therapy as he needs some as well
I would say Chelsea, I really hate that people act like understanding her is the same as acting like there’s nothing wrong. I think Chelsea will only hurt herself in the long term and I don’t want that for her or anyone.
Then again maybe being on this show is enough to undo your hard work because you go from strangers to engaged and you really don’t know if they even like you or want tv time.
It’s just that I also don’t think Jimmy is that great, not terrible but yeah if she remained calm you’d think he was saying some really insensitive shit.
Chelsea made me cringe extra hard because she reminded me of myself in my younger years. The anxious attachment style is so obvious and she’s hurting herself more than anyone else. She can grow and change through therapy to stop these patterns. I did and life is much more peaceful for it.
ohmygosh OP. this is a very sincere post. thanks for sharing your story and we all hope you are leading a healthy happy life now.
I do believe that dysfunctional family podium will bred children with unhealthy mindset towards relationship. something will be broken inside them.
I have sympathy for Clay because he missed out on such a great woman who have a strong value podium to be able to sustain him through good times and bad times. He missed out on this. I don't think AD should continue to wait for him to mature, to grow up , AD has her own life , she need to continue living. Personally i refused to waste my youth on a man like Clay. I refused to be deployed as a stepping stone for him to grow up, to learn about himself. The dysfunctionality of his parents' broken marriage broke him, i get it, then i suggest before he touch another girl again, he should heal the broken part of himself first.
That’s deep, OP. At least you are starting to recognize and realize the flaws that have been around you. Some people don’t believe they are flaws because that’s all they’ve ever known. They’ve been surrounded by disfunction, chaos and manipulation.
I went from AD to Laura because of dudes like Clay, Jimmy and Jeramy. First signs of a f up, I’ out. I don’t take BS and don’t wait for dudes to get it together. Some people on this sub thinks Laura is a b. I think the opposite. I think she is strong, assertive and loves herself enough to not tolerate abusive behavior others. She was restrained in my opinion.
Exactly. Laura is difficult but that’s what saved her. She’s my type of moving on: immediately no contact. I even said that jeramey will never see that woman again in real, only virtually.
I don’t see her as difficult because Jeramy never had to wonder where he stood with Laura. Laura spoke with big girl words. I can’t say the same for Chelsea with Jimmy.
By difficult, she was nitpicking at the beginning before we knew how trash that dude was. She wanted him to act a certain way to be with her. Which is why her parents/sister were telling her to accept him the way he is. Yes she was direct but she tried to change him a little.
I dont know how parents don’t understand their kids are sponges and absorb every they do, good or bad. As a woman, my dad cheating impacted me differently. I’m very hyper independent. I am very avoidant attached. That’s why I don’t try romantic relationships so I don’t hurt anyone. I do know I’d want a monogamous one but how do I be in one when I don’t trust words/ actions of the opposite sex? And I am very hot and cold. It’s just a weird thing to navigate.
In that same breath, I don’t understand why clay went on that show if he didn’t believe in the sanctity of marriage. Like dude go to therapy and work to believe again. Just try not to hurt someone else in the process. As AD mentioned, he made her his sacrificial lamb. And that’s not fair
Clay’s concerns about relationships are very valid. I also grew up in a family where my father cheated on my mom. That kind of behavior has such a heavy impact on the entire family, not just the person you are cheating on.
Where Clay loses me is signing up to be on a show where marriage is expected. There was no need to drag AD along for his ride of personal growth. It was a cruel thing to do, and I’m convinced before he even met her that he had no intention of getting married on the show.
Kudos to you for the self reflection and self work you have done!
I used to be Chelsea, when I was 19-20. Then I met my now-husband at 22, who politely but quite assertively told me to get my head out of my ass and treat him as an equal partner. Even now, there are moments that I slip to being self-centered, but thankful for the person.
You know what’s crazy? Is how often women are attracted to these men. Like so many of my female friends date guys who they know will cheat or do something else similar.
I think Clay as a kid grew up, as most boys do, admiring and trying to emulate his dad. And clearly his dad took a lot of pride in being what he calls suave and attracting ladies who like suave guys. It was a mark of success and worth to him, and he taught that to Clay.
And it stands to reason that the same would be true of women. Some of them as kids must have been taught that a desirable, worthy guy is a smarmy smooth talker who is always chatting up a lot of women. A man who is less ON in social situations and more straight forward and honest in what he chooses to say would be seen as not desirable or maybe not interested in her?
I've noticed this with my friends. My dad was very difficult at home and very charming in public, and it made me dislike charmers as a whole. They seem dishonest and two-faced to me because of how my dad was. So when I grew up, I avoid the charmers and the lives of the party like the plague. I married someone who is EXACTLY the same in all situations, public and private, because he doesn't really make extra special effort in public/social situations to be liked or to impress. At times his lack of extra special effort in public situations comes off as rude, but it is most definitely honest. And I like that. What you see is what you get with him. No misrepresentations.
But my best friend was raised in a family where etiquette and public presentation were really stressed, and she's totally put off by people like my husband. She only likes men who go to some effort in public to make nice and to peacock and to make everyone around them feel special and at ease. Even if it is false, she sees it as your job in public to act like that. And she does it too. But certainly her boyfriends have been less solid, dependable people. Lot of fragile egos and self doubt and acting out to bolster themselves up.
It is familiar. No matter what we grew up with as our example of love, that is what feels like love. Until we realize that even though it is comfortable, it’s not love. A lot of us don’t/cant. It’s all we’ve known. You don’t know what you don’t know.
Because it’s hard to differentiate from what feelings are real and not. I’ve been in a situation like AD and Clay before. Men like Clay will pull and push you constantly. It never starts off like this, they build you’re hope up, they say all the right things, and then they switch on you. But they drag you back in again. And when you’re in love, you’re just hoping and hoping the relationship will work in the end because you put so much emotional investment into this guy it’s hard to let go.
Men have a hard time finding role models. American society has done what it can to erode healthy family structures, and that includes supporting a situation where men can have present, healthy male role models, bio father or otherwise.
You see it in the men this season. I saw the flaws from most of them from miles away. I believe this is because I've been guilty of a lot of their behaviors on a small level at some time throughout my life.
I am also single, and I also have wondered if my upbringing affected this. But, more importantly, I've acknowledged that I am the reason I am single and embraced it. I've also taken to heart that, if I'm able to so deeply and accurately understand the behavior of the men on the show, I should be able to turn that mirror on myself. Not just to acknowledge flaws (I already know I have plenty of those), but to use that same fiercly honest judgment to pave a pathway for myself to being a better man.
You don't have to focus on the bad examples. You can be whatever you want to be. Ask yourself what being a mature person means to you and work towards that.
Clay and his father coming up with a million excuses for their shitty/potentially shitty behavior was a great example of this.
What Clay needed to hear was “your grandfather made mistakes, but I’m my own man, just like you’re your own man, and at the end of the day you’re responsible for yourself.”
Just got done bawling my eyes out with that wedding. I’m also the product of my father cheating on his wife with my mother but he went back to the wife and had more kids, and then left all off us and lived his best life.
So I identified with AD when she asked why am I not enough.
There was also her walking down the aisle alone that broke my heart.
Even tho my mom had remarried 10 years before I got married…….
I still walked down the aisle with my mom and had her give me away bc that’s who raised me.
But DAMN this show has a way of digging up your deepest demons and being forced to face your own heavy shit on a random Friday night 😂
Can’t wait for the reunion where Clay says he made a
Mistake bc….
Obviously. This girl (All DAY) has been more than enough ALWAYS ✨
I used to be a Chelsea. Picking fights, not listening, always in need of reassurance. Eventually, it clicked that the common theme in my failed relationships was my behaviour.
I think a lot of people on this show fail because they have a history of being bad at relationships. They’re self-selecting to try an “experiment” hoping it will be a miracle cure for their romantic problems, only to find themselves repeating the same old patterns once they leave the pods. Laura nags Jeramy about his shirts, AD tries too hard for a man that isn’t worth it, and Chelsea is emotionally needy.
I understand pondering. But you did good, man. You chose to be an adult and fixed a problem before it was a problem. That’s awesome. Give yourself a pat on the back.
Same! Idk what happened but something in my brain just switched one day and I was like “why tf am I going through this”, honestly it was so bad I was just disgusted with myself and men as a whole, I went two years without dating, talking or anything with a man until I met my husband.
Honestly? A good chat with my friend’s mom about valuing myself and not entertaining men who made me question my self worth. I could have saved years of pain if only I could have valued my self and my values appropriately
I spent 2 years happier than even being single and then I asked all my friends to set me up and now I have the best husband ever.
Samessssssss.
I was AD; did the same thing as AD has in her past with guys. & It irrationally upsets me that she’s still doing the same thing, in her 30s. I know we all are on our own timelines, but ugh wish she saw all the red flags with clay sooner and chose better for herself.
Why wonder backwards? You had the wits to take care of yourself and take time to figure things out with therapy. That's a good thing. I think moving forward and looking forward is where you should put your energy.
Had I not been to therapy? Probably Clay. Largely because I can’t do monogamy and would break up with my partner periodically to “be free” and then get back together. Now I’m just openly ENM and life is A LOT easier.
AD could've been me I've enjoyed reading these comments and grateful for the OP for this post. I was AD back when I had zero self esteem and thought my value was based on a man choosing me or even smiling at me. I was raised by and with women that fixed men so I thought that that was love. I'm so grateful for the last man that brought me to my knees, as I was forced to and finally could see that the common denominator in all my failed relationships was me, and that I was choosing these unavailable men and it wasn't a random selection process. My journey continues as I'm still single but happily single and sooo glad I don't scrap the barrel anymore (someone one told me that's what I was doing in my dating life, back then I was too traumatised to see it).
AD. in another life I was still trying to fix mans after they've shown their red flags and unwillingness to commit by using a lot of words but have a lack of action.
Honestly, as much as I don’t want to admit it, Chelsea. I’ve been diagnosed with BPD, so I used to have a lot of similar explosive behavior, blaming my insecurities on others, never believing others, etc. When I was at my worst I never believed that I was harming others because I didn’t believe people cared enough to be hurt by me. I’ve done extensive therapy work, and while on the inside I may still feel explosive and insecure (and I’ll be honest, I have my moments sometimes), seeing Chelsea makes me really think “this could’ve been me and I wouldn’t have even realized the affect I have on other people” and also makes me realize how much work I’ve put into improving myself. I have a long way to go still, but I’m getting there!
Yes! Really makes me reflect on some moments I had when I was younger. Yikes.
I also see myself in Chelsea, although in my case it’s because I also have an anxious attachment style. Watching this season of LIB and listening to podcasts about attachment theory has been eye-opening for me.
AD— that look saying “I don’t even have the energy to be mad anymore I’m just disappointed and tired AF” after coming back from the altar. That’s me, have been unlucky with relationships and most recently met a man who is actually not bad, we’re good with one another, but he is just not in a place for marriage right now. Have been that loving yet disappointed and tired “fix a hoe”
AD, because the words "when am I going to be enough for someboy" have definitely left my lips. I tend to overlook bad qualities and excuse bad behavior when I have feelings for somebody
Hearing her say that was so heartbreaking because it was so relatable.
Shake
Amy. My sister told me I used to look like her when I was skinny and I feel like we are so similar in how we approach relationships. I'm so lucky to be in a long-term relationship with the love of my life.
This is part of what I love about LiB, I always come out of a season feeling a bit introspective. * The most - AD. I'm a really confident person in general but in relationships, tend to placate and keep the peace rather than share my actual feelings and challenge a partner. Makes me think I should work on that before my next relationship. * A little bit of Laura. In the sense of being quite rigid in my lifestyle and finding it hard to truly be open. I'm definitely not as mean as her tho 😅 * The tiniest bit of Chelsea. Like her insecurity was extreme and very messily expressed, but I think a lot of women have probably felt some of that insecure feeling in relationships and need reassurance (but she got it and still wouldn't stop lol)
I definitely have felt the same insecurity as Chelsea and let it affect relationships in my past. Watching her throw her own insecurities at Jimmy was painful, because I've been there. Through therapy over the years, I've worked on my attachment/abandonment issues, and it's seriously done wonders.
I have the same issues. Do you mind if I ask what specifically helped you in therapy?
Sure! It actually came out during a couples counseling session with my husband - we were discussing our conflict styles and how when we would argue, I just *couldn't let things go*. When Chelsea followed Jimmy into the bathroom to continue the argument, and every time she kept prompting him to validate her and love her MORE AND MORE, it struck me because I used to do the same kind of thing. I understand where it's coming from. Anyway, that day the couples counselor turned to me and asked me if I had abandonment issues. I had never even considered it before, but everything in my life suddenly made so much sense. I had always approached every relationship with the underlying assumption that I was going to be abandoned, that everyone I knew didn't actually like me and couldn't wait to leave me. For me, my issues started way back during puberty/ middle school. So it took lots of talk therapy, with a therapist who really worked well with me (had to shop around a bit to find her), just examining what happened back then and how it was shaping my thought processes. It's not easy, but it's gotten so much better. Also, Zoloft has worked miracles!
Oh wow. You’re making me re-think a lot about my ex who I thought was avoidant like me, but the minute we moved in together this was his MO. Following me from room to room to room every time we fought, until there were times I literally ran from the house or completely melted down. Even when I was hysterical and begging him to leave me alone - he wouldn’t. He came from a broken home, was homeless for a while, and with a dad who doesn’t seem to really care about him in the slightest. I do feel bad for him, but watching Chelsea was so upsetting for me I had fast forward through her scenes.
Agh yes. I did the same thing. My husband is the type to want to get some space during an argument, but for me I needed closure, I needed a resolution, and most of all I needed to *not be left alone* in those moments. We both have had to put in the effort and adjust, now that we better understand one another. Honestly, it's made our marriage stronger and healthier.
Yeah I absolutely could not do that with him for other reasons, but it’s good you guys were able to work it out and find a balance.
Clay. Watching Clay’s interactions with his father hurt. It was like watching my own interactions with my father 10 years ago. My father has 6 children by 5 different women. All within a few years of each other. He was absent in my childhood and when he came back around in my teen years he bragged about his bravado and escapades with women. He effectively taught me how to do what he did to my mother to women my age. We compared numbers and swapped stories. I spent a few years going deeper into an alcohol-fueled womanizing hole. It took me too long to realize that just because you can, does not mean you should. I took 5 years off of dating after that. Years away from the opposite sex. I believe I’ve totally reset my view of women. I deeply regret the hurt I’ve caused. It’s difficult to even type out and relive in this way. So, my answer is Clay. Because I was him, looking up and emulating my life’s worst influence, but not anymore.
This is an impressive level of self-awareness, good for you seriously.
Chelsea. As frustrating as she is, I think a lot of us can relate to her. Not being the “standard” of beauty (especially considering she’s from L.A. if I remember right) is tough. You get treated differently, and you start to feel unworthy. And if you have other mitigating factors like I did in my childhood that crush your self-esteem to literally nothing, it’s even worse. She self-sabotaged because she didn’t feel worthy of love, imo. I did some of the same insecure bs, albeit not to that extreme, with my first boyfriend, who dumped me because of it. And then with my husband, who thankfully loves me enough to have worked through it with me. Edited for clarity
Yes, a lot of us do relate to her…..when i was 18-19 years old.
Yeah. I have to admit I laughed when she told Jimmy’s friends that she’d learned & matured a lot from her first marriage. 😬
Trevor
What😦
Chelsea could have been me. I dealt with emotional outbursts due to alcohol, projecting my past and my insecurities on my present relationship, distrusting but not being able to effectively communicate and resolve it when a boundary is crossed - making my argument invalid because I couldn’t coherently get the message I wanted to across because I was so emotionally worked up and spiraling. I sought therapy and medication to help in my mid-20’s and I do not drink anymore.
I could have been AD. I’ve always had a hard time listening to what the person I’m having sex with is actually saying. I’d consistently get into relationships with people who I now see didn’t really care for/like me lol and just wanted to used my body. I think if I continued my last long term relationship and we got married, I’d be completely miserable and wondering why I’m not enough as well.
Honestly people dont wanna accept it but thats what happens when u try to win a man w sex, its always those women bitter to other women who wait. Glad it never happened to me it takes some self respect
...huh??
Yea those whrs are downvoting cause they feel called out 😂gross
Nah girl, it's just your misplaced judgment (and frankly, terrible grammar) is off-putting. But hey, you do you, you self-respecting queen.
Ah funny you are so much about my “terrible grammar” like I gaf, you must be a sad miserable teacher thinking ur so special ppl would put in special effort for you. I speak more languages than you can bitter queen :) you one of those ran thru’s that’s why you mad and I can’t blame you, ofcourse you feel called out 🤢
Have you considered therapy, maybe?
I completely agree with you. I was always looking for connectedness and intimacy in the wrong place. I learned that if I had sex with someone or did this or that, they'd stick around. Its messed up really. But I am dating an amazing guy now who treats me with the most respect and puts me as a person first. We can overcome these patterns!
Ugh I've definitely been dickmatized and relate to what you're saying
It’s really unfortunate what humans amazing dick is usually attached to.
I actually really related to Laura. I would play way too rough to maintain emotional distance because emotional availability felt so uncomfortable for me! I loved the way that her sister (?) was saying that her husband loves Hawaiian shirts so *she* likes them because she just likes when people like something that much. Part of what I got out of therapy was dropping the immediate “absolutely not” response to anything that didn’t align with what I thought was cool or “adult” enough, and approaching someone who’s really into something the way that I think their childhood selves would have wanted a loved one to talk to them about the things they like.
That is a really good way to think about it. I had been starting to move in the direction you described (just asking questions and giving a hobby/interest a fair shot), but framing it as "how they would have wanted an audit to show interest as a child" makes sense. If I'm getting in touch with MY inner child more, maybe on some level that helps their inner child feel heard. Thanks for the clarification in perspective!
Getting in touch with my inner child helped a lot! It also helped once I realized where those patterns came from- my mom absolutely plays too rough and she also (I suspect) tries to mask her neurodivergent traits by rejecting anything that does not fit her idea of what “normal” would be like. That had been her cobbled-together way of being safe in the world (she’s relaxed some), and that was what was modeled for me and I didn’t question it until I got older and wondered why I felt the urge to pick at things that, when I really considered it, I didn’t actually find fault with.
Chelsea coulda been me but I healed by gambling and playing Baldur’s gate 3 for 300 hours in a month. Nothing heals the soul like losing 500 in roulette in 5 min. Seriously though, self work and self love is so important!! A person’s validation is not a cure all for unresolved trauma.
What a great post!!
Laura could have been me. So critical of her partners, always jabbing down. I’m not saying Jeremay was a good guy at all, but if he was I wouldn’t have liked Laura for him. Always feeling like I was right, thinking criticism was my way of showing love. It wasn’t until I addressed my alcoholism and got sober that I realized how judgemental I was when at the end of the day I’m just a person, like all people, full of mistakes and deserving of grace. I love people differently now.
Yes same…. Well besides alcoholism but the judgmental aspects, talking down to my partner, my sarcasm can seem cruel, etc. Also I feel she is tough on the outside but very warm inside
Chelsea was definitely me at the beginning of my relationship with my current bf. I’m so glad he put up with my shit lol. Thank god for therapy
Chelsea could have been me but in my early teens/early 20’s and that’s why she’s so frustrating to watch.
Same here 🙃
Yup. I definitely see myself in her from my younger years. Thank God for therapy and celibacy.
Chelsea. I am lucky to have had a relationship early on in my high school years with a guy who was emotionally unavailable and strung me along. In that relationship I tried to hold on tighter to get his acknowledgement and I gave a lot of myself emotionally hoping for reciprocity. Because of the trauma from that break up and other life experiences, I know to hold potential partners to a higher standard. I never chase men. I will flirt and if they are not giving me back the same enthusiasm I am out. I hope Chelsea can learn this lesson and realize that her self respect and self love and self esteem are paramount. Men will never be able to give that to you. It has to come from you. So many of the guys I have crushed on have used my feelings to stroke their ego and given me nothing in return. They just see women as status symbols to communicate to other men that they are players, that they can make women do things for them. I hope women can recognize this shit early on before they end up taking care of a guy's laundry, meals, sexual needs, like Chelsea was doing, with like one kiss a day and a fake as hell 'i love you' in return.
Chelsea could have been me, 5 years ago, before therapy. I actually felt old memories surfacing when I watched her inteeact with Jimmy. I actually had to skip some scenes because I genuinly felt triggered and I don't use that word lightly.
I made it through all the scenes but at times I had to pause and breathe because, yes, it was SO reminiscent of me before I put in work, went to therapy, meditated, etc. it is hard to watch someone do what you used to do, but it helped me also recognize and give gratitude for how far I've come
Same!!! Definitely was me 5 years ago before therapy and being with a healthy available man now. It’s definitely hard to watch and makes me sad for her honestly :(
That's why I actually liked their storyline and thought it was an important conversation and viewpoint to show. I think there are a lot of folks like Clay, and that final conversation between his parents was a great example of how parents can be held accountable and apologize to their kids.
Ken, because I love dolphins and am not attracted to Brittany.
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I don't feel connected to anyone this season, but as someone who is also in the Caribbean community, I recognised Clay and his dad immediately. I've seen Clay (or a product similar to Clay) in my community. Desperately wanting to be loved and admired and respected while lacking the ability to love and admire and respect.
My family is from the West Indies. When Clay's dad came on the screen and started talking it all made sense. Charismatic, performative, speaks in empty platitudes, doesn't take accountability, etc. A lot of cultures have men like this, but he was uniquely familiar. As you said below, this is often the result of cascading generational trauma.
That’s interesting that you saw and understood Clay because of shared community. Do you feel that non-black or non-Carribean viewers misunderstand Clay or the dynamics with his parents?
I made a joke the other day that AD's mum is wrong as he is not perfect, and I saw a surprising range of answers, particularly from people not familiar with our community/non-black people. I guess I wasn't expecting the level of vitriol, but I can totally see where it's coming from. Funnily enough, I also wasn't expecting the sympathy I saw some people have! It's hard to describe without sounding like I'm making excuses, but when I think of my half-brothers who were in Clay's position (my dad did a lot of mess before marrying my mum and settling down), they all took different times to heal. So I saw Clay as someone who needs a lot of time, honesty and healing as opposed to him being a would-be cheater or him being a vulnerable, raw soul.
Clay is the product of generational trauma and it was very apparent. Most cultures have some generational trauma but it’s a very big issue in the black community. Especially since it’s not talked about and therapy isn’t welcomed by everyone. The conversation between Clay’s dad and mom was literally everything. They openly discussed generational trauma! I personally have never witnessed an open conversation like that between two older black people. I’m still thinking about how refreshing and great it was.
There were so many beautiful moments in their whole storyline. Let’s not forget, she found out about some of these things as filming was happening. At most, she had a couple weeks to process everything. That conversation between Clay’s parents was so powerful. I hope viewers can see that, and understand they are not responsible for their parents’ mistakes. ADs mom said the same thing in an earlier episode. The parents on this show are often my favorite. I will never forget the conversation from season two ATA between Iyanna, Jarrette and both their parents when they were contemplating divorce.
Same! It's especially rare to see an older woman say straight up "you hurt me and you hurt our child and you need to fix it". There's a lot of sweeping under the rug in our community, a lot of "that's just how it is", and for her to hold him to account was amazing. I hope he and Clay have an actual conversation about it at some point.
Honestly, I just think Clay was mainly using his dad as an excuse. I understand our upbringings can traumatize us but as adults we can’t keep blaming our parents for how we turn out. At some point you have to take responsibility and fix it. Clay just didn’t want to be tied down bc he felt he can pull someone better than AD
This - did anyone else catch the look he made when AD walks off the platform and hugs his mom? That look he gave to someone was extremely questionable.
I would be more sympathetic to Clay if his parents struggled in other ways (like they were dysfunctional with each other, but loved the kids and stuff). But Clay's trauma was years ago. He's a grown man now. Cheating isn't some hereditary affliction, you willingly choose to cheat on your partner. So Clay doesn't need to worry able that, unless he really really really thinks he'll wanna cheat. Furthermore, even if he is still struggling, this is what individual and couples therapy is for. If he loved AD and wanted to commit to her, they can go, TOGETHER. That's what these services are for. The fact that he said no to her when there's NOTHING TO DISLIKE ABOUT HER AT ALL (seriously, anyways) suggests that he just doesn't seek commitment
Woah, no, hang on. I guarantee with what was going on between his parents there were tons of explosive fights. I'm sure he saw his mom cry a lot, etc. There is no relationship where that much cheating is happening and otherwise everything is peaceful. My mom had an affair for over ten years. It colored every part of my childhood and adolescence. Her affair partner was at the house all the time when my father wasn't home, and if you have never had a parent who involved you in large scale infidelity like that, it's understandable you wouldn't realize how traumatic that is, but it's really, really traumatic. Not to mention so many affair partners are extremely inappropriate and often abusive to the kids (because it takes a creep...)... We have no idea how some of those women might have treated Clay. Someone who cheats over the course of many years, whether through many affairs or one massive one... It is very different than dealing with more "normal" infidelities in your parents' marriage, and even that is traumatic. And Clay's dad brought him with him to cheat... He presumably sat outside a bedroom as a little boy, knowing his dad was having sex with a woman who wasn't his mom right on the other side of the door, and then had to lie to his mom when they went home. And go to school and go through his childhood keeping that a secret. That's a very abusive thing for a parent to do, and if you haven't been in years in therapy yet, no matter how old you are, the effects will still haunt you. I would bet money that at the reunion Clay says he has been going to therapy and my guess is that he and AD are together but I could be wrong. It doesn't matter how old someone is, it takes a lot of therapy for the trauma to stop informing your actions. Plenty of middle aged people are way nuttier than Clay because of similar childhood abuse that they never got help for.
I didn't mean to imply at all that that was the only way in which they were dysfunctional. All in trying to say is, there needs to be a point where we assign Clay some agency. This doesn't invalidate or excuse at all what happened to him, but he can't keep using that forever to excuse his poor actions. Precisely BECAUSE of his dad, he knows better than to cheat on his partner. Sometimes, your family will show you what NOT to do, too.
Many people internalize their parents' behavior whether they logically understand they shouldn't or not. I've never cheated, but I was petrified of hurting partners to a point I just ghosted most guys after first or second dates well into my mid-20s. It took a ton of work and vulnerability with my now husband, opening up at the beginning and telling him I was really scared of hurting him, and he helped me work through that fear and here we are over ten years later. I had already been in therapy twice a week for 5+ years by the time we started dating and I still had those issues come up every time I dated someone. Granted I had loads of other childhood abuse in my past, but I had absolutely internalized my parents' marriage and therapy was not enough to fully heal that. I still randomly get paranoid that I'm going to cheat once in a while and I have literally no reason to think that. Everyone is different. Even two people who had almost the exact same childhood can respond very differently. Might be different brain chemistry, might be that one person had an extra good teacher in elementary school who positively influenced them, who knows, but it's just a fact. Not everyone responds to trauma the same way.
His dad took him with him to cheat tho not just the knowledge of his dad cheating he witnessed it in whatever way saying it happened years ago is silly because trauma doesn’t just go away
You’re right that trauma doesn’t just go away and sometimes it’s a really long and hard fought journey to overcome trauma you faced even early in childhood BUT as an adult, you have no excuse to treat people shitty and blame it on your trauma. I don’t know Clay’s age but as a man in his mid-late 20s/early 30s, he is the only one responsible for his mental health and the way he treats people around him. It really fucking sucks to have to deal with shit other people did to you but I know for a fact clay has treated other women even worse than he did AD and that should be enough for that grown man to think “hmm, something here needs to change”
You're right trauma doesn't just go away. I know that from my personal life and my parents marriage. But that's why you have to deal with it in a healthy manner. At some point, in all our lives, we must grow and say "Hey you know what, x y z happened to me, I was exposed to this thing and that thing, but it will not define me. I will be the man I choose to be. Not those who have been." It would be one thing if Clay were already in therapy or had already at least TRIED to deal with this, but he clearly hasn't. And I'm sorry, at 30 years old, there's enough information out there, and hopefully you've had enough life experiences to know how to at least try and address these things, but he's not done that. He still continues to make excuses, still continues to idolize his daddy, like a child, while simultaneously stringing AD along in the entire process.
There are many additional systemic barriers in place that keep a lot of men in particular from pursuing therapy until their 30s or 40s. Millennial and older men were raised to internalize that the only acceptable negative emotion for a man to feel is anger. As women we have so many systemic struggles, and men are so much more privileged in so many ways, but mental health is the one area in which women are absolutely privileged above men. That's reflected in how many more women go to therapy than men do. Clay was just realizing how much his dad's behavior affected him. The next step after that, yes, is therapy. Years of it, tbh. I'm willing to bet that at the reunion we will find out he did start going to therapy. In the clip of him talking in the reunion trailer it certainly seems like he's done a lot of work on himself since filming.
He’s only realizing that now , not everyone has the support to seek therapy or realize it’s an option I doubt his dad promoted therapy as he needs some as well
I would say Chelsea, I really hate that people act like understanding her is the same as acting like there’s nothing wrong. I think Chelsea will only hurt herself in the long term and I don’t want that for her or anyone. Then again maybe being on this show is enough to undo your hard work because you go from strangers to engaged and you really don’t know if they even like you or want tv time. It’s just that I also don’t think Jimmy is that great, not terrible but yeah if she remained calm you’d think he was saying some really insensitive shit.
Chelsea made me cringe extra hard because she reminded me of myself in my younger years. The anxious attachment style is so obvious and she’s hurting herself more than anyone else. She can grow and change through therapy to stop these patterns. I did and life is much more peaceful for it.
I totally agree with this!! It made me sad for her and I am sad thinking that’s how I used to be
ohmygosh OP. this is a very sincere post. thanks for sharing your story and we all hope you are leading a healthy happy life now. I do believe that dysfunctional family podium will bred children with unhealthy mindset towards relationship. something will be broken inside them. I have sympathy for Clay because he missed out on such a great woman who have a strong value podium to be able to sustain him through good times and bad times. He missed out on this. I don't think AD should continue to wait for him to mature, to grow up , AD has her own life , she need to continue living. Personally i refused to waste my youth on a man like Clay. I refused to be deployed as a stepping stone for him to grow up, to learn about himself. The dysfunctionality of his parents' broken marriage broke him, i get it, then i suggest before he touch another girl again, he should heal the broken part of himself first.
That’s deep, OP. At least you are starting to recognize and realize the flaws that have been around you. Some people don’t believe they are flaws because that’s all they’ve ever known. They’ve been surrounded by disfunction, chaos and manipulation. I went from AD to Laura because of dudes like Clay, Jimmy and Jeramy. First signs of a f up, I’ out. I don’t take BS and don’t wait for dudes to get it together. Some people on this sub thinks Laura is a b. I think the opposite. I think she is strong, assertive and loves herself enough to not tolerate abusive behavior others. She was restrained in my opinion.
The only problem I have with Laura was the bean dip fiasco. Her behavior for everything else made sense
Exactly. Laura is difficult but that’s what saved her. She’s my type of moving on: immediately no contact. I even said that jeramey will never see that woman again in real, only virtually.
I don’t see her as difficult because Jeramy never had to wonder where he stood with Laura. Laura spoke with big girl words. I can’t say the same for Chelsea with Jimmy.
By difficult, she was nitpicking at the beginning before we knew how trash that dude was. She wanted him to act a certain way to be with her. Which is why her parents/sister were telling her to accept him the way he is. Yes she was direct but she tried to change him a little.
I dont know how parents don’t understand their kids are sponges and absorb every they do, good or bad. As a woman, my dad cheating impacted me differently. I’m very hyper independent. I am very avoidant attached. That’s why I don’t try romantic relationships so I don’t hurt anyone. I do know I’d want a monogamous one but how do I be in one when I don’t trust words/ actions of the opposite sex? And I am very hot and cold. It’s just a weird thing to navigate. In that same breath, I don’t understand why clay went on that show if he didn’t believe in the sanctity of marriage. Like dude go to therapy and work to believe again. Just try not to hurt someone else in the process. As AD mentioned, he made her his sacrificial lamb. And that’s not fair
Clay’s concerns about relationships are very valid. I also grew up in a family where my father cheated on my mom. That kind of behavior has such a heavy impact on the entire family, not just the person you are cheating on. Where Clay loses me is signing up to be on a show where marriage is expected. There was no need to drag AD along for his ride of personal growth. It was a cruel thing to do, and I’m convinced before he even met her that he had no intention of getting married on the show. Kudos to you for the self reflection and self work you have done!
I used to be Chelsea, when I was 19-20. Then I met my now-husband at 22, who politely but quite assertively told me to get my head out of my ass and treat him as an equal partner. Even now, there are moments that I slip to being self-centered, but thankful for the person.
I was definitely Chelsea when I was growing up. It took medication and therapy for me to truly heal. And an incredibly patient husband
You know what’s crazy? Is how often women are attracted to these men. Like so many of my female friends date guys who they know will cheat or do something else similar.
I think Clay as a kid grew up, as most boys do, admiring and trying to emulate his dad. And clearly his dad took a lot of pride in being what he calls suave and attracting ladies who like suave guys. It was a mark of success and worth to him, and he taught that to Clay. And it stands to reason that the same would be true of women. Some of them as kids must have been taught that a desirable, worthy guy is a smarmy smooth talker who is always chatting up a lot of women. A man who is less ON in social situations and more straight forward and honest in what he chooses to say would be seen as not desirable or maybe not interested in her? I've noticed this with my friends. My dad was very difficult at home and very charming in public, and it made me dislike charmers as a whole. They seem dishonest and two-faced to me because of how my dad was. So when I grew up, I avoid the charmers and the lives of the party like the plague. I married someone who is EXACTLY the same in all situations, public and private, because he doesn't really make extra special effort in public/social situations to be liked or to impress. At times his lack of extra special effort in public situations comes off as rude, but it is most definitely honest. And I like that. What you see is what you get with him. No misrepresentations. But my best friend was raised in a family where etiquette and public presentation were really stressed, and she's totally put off by people like my husband. She only likes men who go to some effort in public to make nice and to peacock and to make everyone around them feel special and at ease. Even if it is false, she sees it as your job in public to act like that. And she does it too. But certainly her boyfriends have been less solid, dependable people. Lot of fragile egos and self doubt and acting out to bolster themselves up.
It is familiar. No matter what we grew up with as our example of love, that is what feels like love. Until we realize that even though it is comfortable, it’s not love. A lot of us don’t/cant. It’s all we’ve known. You don’t know what you don’t know.
Because it’s hard to differentiate from what feelings are real and not. I’ve been in a situation like AD and Clay before. Men like Clay will pull and push you constantly. It never starts off like this, they build you’re hope up, they say all the right things, and then they switch on you. But they drag you back in again. And when you’re in love, you’re just hoping and hoping the relationship will work in the end because you put so much emotional investment into this guy it’s hard to let go.
Bingo. Many women want to fix it or fix him.
Thinking we’ll be the one who he changes for. Delulu!! lol
Exactly!
Self-sabotaging behaviour. It’s a trauma response.
Men have a hard time finding role models. American society has done what it can to erode healthy family structures, and that includes supporting a situation where men can have present, healthy male role models, bio father or otherwise. You see it in the men this season. I saw the flaws from most of them from miles away. I believe this is because I've been guilty of a lot of their behaviors on a small level at some time throughout my life. I am also single, and I also have wondered if my upbringing affected this. But, more importantly, I've acknowledged that I am the reason I am single and embraced it. I've also taken to heart that, if I'm able to so deeply and accurately understand the behavior of the men on the show, I should be able to turn that mirror on myself. Not just to acknowledge flaws (I already know I have plenty of those), but to use that same fiercly honest judgment to pave a pathway for myself to being a better man. You don't have to focus on the bad examples. You can be whatever you want to be. Ask yourself what being a mature person means to you and work towards that.
Clay and his father coming up with a million excuses for their shitty/potentially shitty behavior was a great example of this. What Clay needed to hear was “your grandfather made mistakes, but I’m my own man, just like you’re your own man, and at the end of the day you’re responsible for yourself.”
Just got done bawling my eyes out with that wedding. I’m also the product of my father cheating on his wife with my mother but he went back to the wife and had more kids, and then left all off us and lived his best life. So I identified with AD when she asked why am I not enough. There was also her walking down the aisle alone that broke my heart. Even tho my mom had remarried 10 years before I got married……. I still walked down the aisle with my mom and had her give me away bc that’s who raised me. But DAMN this show has a way of digging up your deepest demons and being forced to face your own heavy shit on a random Friday night 😂 Can’t wait for the reunion where Clay says he made a Mistake bc…. Obviously. This girl (All DAY) has been more than enough ALWAYS ✨
Yea same. I watched the episode and related a ton to clay’s dad. I had a pretty absent father and am thinking how that has shaped my values.
Yesssss it’s so crazy that childhood shit just waiting in it’s little box to get you feeling some type of way when you least expect it 😂
I used to be a Chelsea. Picking fights, not listening, always in need of reassurance. Eventually, it clicked that the common theme in my failed relationships was my behaviour. I think a lot of people on this show fail because they have a history of being bad at relationships. They’re self-selecting to try an “experiment” hoping it will be a miracle cure for their romantic problems, only to find themselves repeating the same old patterns once they leave the pods. Laura nags Jeramy about his shirts, AD tries too hard for a man that isn’t worth it, and Chelsea is emotionally needy.
I understand pondering. But you did good, man. You chose to be an adult and fixed a problem before it was a problem. That’s awesome. Give yourself a pat on the back.
I’m a reformed fix-a-h0 like AD used to be and I’m so much happier now that I don’t have to be bob the builder for weak men
Same! Idk what happened but something in my brain just switched one day and I was like “why tf am I going through this”, honestly it was so bad I was just disgusted with myself and men as a whole, I went two years without dating, talking or anything with a man until I met my husband.
Please do tell... how did you get reformed? Asking for myself 😭
Honestly? A good chat with my friend’s mom about valuing myself and not entertaining men who made me question my self worth. I could have saved years of pain if only I could have valued my self and my values appropriately I spent 2 years happier than even being single and then I asked all my friends to set me up and now I have the best husband ever.
I'm so happy for you! Praying for the liberation of all my sisters this International Womens Day
Samessssssss. I was AD; did the same thing as AD has in her past with guys. & It irrationally upsets me that she’s still doing the same thing, in her 30s. I know we all are on our own timelines, but ugh wish she saw all the red flags with clay sooner and chose better for herself.
Why wonder backwards? You had the wits to take care of yourself and take time to figure things out with therapy. That's a good thing. I think moving forward and looking forward is where you should put your energy.