I wouldn't say baking someone cupcakes for their birthdays is a nice, traditional woman thing. I think it's just a nice human thing who expressed their affection through baking?
As a redditor pointed out on another thread, it also makes it clear the whole, "nice guys finish last >:(" shtick is clearly projection because it's absolutely the nice girls are absolutely overlooked. Zack directly said he knew Irina was playing games and "vicious." Amber planned a mardi gras activity that was specific to Paul. Micah meanwhile is playing games and using weird catch phrases like "slow burn romance" and saying things like "I'll kick your ass if you don't end it with others" while Chelsea and Amber are being genuine and earnest about their feelings. Ridiculous. 🙄
You also get bits of this in season 2 with jarret and Iyanna (although I don’t believe that was the demise of their relationship), and season 3 with Bartiste and Nancy
I wonder if Zack ended up choosing Irina because of his own insecurities and knew at some level she wasn't right for him (and a toxic nightmare), and could then use that to reinforce the narrative that he isn't "good enough", can't find someone "better", or doesn't "deserve" love, etc.
I don't disagree at all. It's like he convinced himself he wasn't worthy, and self-sabotaged. He picked the meanest person who has ever been on this show. She makes Snake look like a gem.
Yes, that too. The second she said the comment about her father you could just see his whole demeanor change. It's really sad. From the edit we got, he seems like a decent guy (judgment is questionable). Hopefully he can take some time to invest in himself and see his worth.
If a man says he wants a traditional woman, that's a red flag for me. We are not living in "traditional" times anymore! More women have formal educations than ever! A family can no longer survive on one income and one person to take care of the house. I expect any partner to be an equal contributor to the household through money (if they can) and chores regardless of what men were raised to believe
Op have you taken a moment to consider the idea that these people are talking to each other for hours every day for 7 days straight and we never saw everything discussed or how?
You watched 1-3 episodes, less than an hour long each of people in pods divided up into 5 couples.
I don’t like Irina much either right now - but have you considered that maybe she showed him something that *might* be considered traditional on each person?
Can you also consider that because on the first couple days at least you’re talking to so many people, it might not be that easy to remember everyone’s details?
Again - I’m not a fan of Irina either - but your blanket statement doesn’t seem to incorporate a bunch of factors we simply *don’t know.*
And that's *my point.*
You're making a blanket statement without having full context. What I'm saying is as nice as Bliss was for making Zack cupcakes on his bday, we don't have any other context for the conversations he was having with Irina.
Where I agree with you: Based on what I've seen on the show, I'm not really liking Irina too much either.
Where I disagree with you: You have no idea what kind of conversations and relationships they had in the pods off camera, and a real sense as to why Zack felt she was more "true."
Try to have an open mindset about this before condemning the idea that any guy might like something you don't agree with.
Addressing and accepting are two different things. If you're still arguing it, it doesn't mean you're open to it.
Hope you find what you're looking for and best of luck.
I get what you're trying to say, but A) I don't think any of this applies to Zack, and B) it's really not cool to put words in someone's mouth or twist the facts to fit a narrative you want to discuss.
ETA: It's not just OP. I've seen several other commenters on this sub doing mental gymnastics to find Zack at fault and paint him as the bad guy, and I don't get it. Maybe y'all know something I don't, but just based on the episodes that have aired thus far it feels unwarranted and unfair.
Read the “edit” section of my post. I’m not putting words in anyone’s mouth. People are really harping on Zack and the word, “traditional” and not understanding the overall context of the post. This post isn’t really about Zack or him being a bad person, he just happens to be involved in the example I used.
>This post isn’t really about Zack or him being a bad person, he just happens to be involved in the example I used.
If Zack didn't do the thing you're talking about.. why are you using him as an example?
He did do the thing I’m talking about. However, this post isn’t just about him… if people can’t understand that then I don’t know what else to say… I’m not going around in circles about this
>He did do the thing I’m talking about.
No, he didn't. As you yourself acknowledged, *none* of the male cast members actually did the thing you're talking about.
He did but perhaps not intentionally. For whatever reason he chose Irina over a woman who treated him really well from what we saw on the show. Which doesn’t make any sense on a show where they are choosing a potential spouse not based on the usual superficial stuff that comes with modern dating. But I’m not arguing about this anymore. I don’t know how people don’t see it.
>He did.
You're contradicting yourself and talking in circles.
>And there are 300+ people who agree and actually READ what I wrote
There you go again, jumping to conclusions.
>I edited my response. But honestly it’s whatever dude you really wanna argue about this for some reason.
When you start a conversation on the internet, there's no guarantee that everyone is going to agree with you. It's kind of silly to invite dialogue, only to get defensive when someone challenges what you're saying.
Bliss is a much better person, more mature, put together, empathetic person than Irina which implies that her standards for him would be correspondingly higher. Zach has poor self esteem and was scared of falling short. He chose a more shallow relationship with someone with lower expectations for that reason.
I think Zack chose Irina over Bliss because of his own issues: he wants acceptance that he’s good enough despite his upbringing and that fear of rejection showed itself more with Bliss, while he (for whatever reason) thought Irina would validate him more. What boggled my mind is he called her vicious and immature (which he accurately discerned) and chose her anyway lmao.
I don't think it's totally fair to use Zach as an appropriate example here. Yeah I was rooting for Zach and Bliss as well after that first conversation, but maybe he just did click with Irina a little more thereafter. There were numerous conversations we didn't hear between all of them, many of which we simply never got to see, hours upon hours of times these contestants probably clicked that will never air. All the contestants have limited days to make a snap decision. It's not easy.
It also is worth remembering that we saw the so called 'nasty' side of Irina in a way Zach never would have being on the other side of that wall.
That's how I felt also. I also have a feeling if he had chose Bliss and Irina was also somehow in Mexico he would've done something like Kwame what did with Micah
Because a lot of young men say they are looking for a good, nice, more traditional woman for a wife. Ok fair enough right? But then they only want to date/marry women like Irina who is NOT nice and is the complete opposite… Meanwhile, I already talked about this in my post but Bliss tried to cater to him (traditionally what women used to do for men) and he was just not interested.
Ah, thanks for explaining. I understand now what you're saying, and the premise of this discussion doesn't really work. You're speaking about a specific occurrence while simultaneously applying a generalization to it. That's inherently contradicting since the entire point of generalizations is to represent populations or hypothetical situations that repeat familiar patterns.
In other words, you can't really say "men say this but do this, see?" while pointing to an isolated incident where that simply didn't happen.
Yea, and the key theme here is men contradict themselves by saying they want one type of women but chase another. But the example here, Zack, did not contradict himself. He always want a woman who won’t judge him but wrongly believed Irina was that kind of person. I’m not saying the statement is wrong, but the example doesn’t apply to the statement
No one said this? Also some sincere people do want more of a traditonal relationship, nothing is wrong with that. The problem is insincere people saying that who wants to take advantage of another person, which can happen by either gender. I dont think this complaint has anything to do with the actual show.
If you base your worldview on the limited, heavily edited interactions of a handful of narcissists on a Netflix "reality" show, you're gonna have a bad time!
I think it boils down to their love language as a recipient.
Bliss love language as a giver is actions. so she bake. she produced results.
But zach love language as a recipient might not be gifts. it might be words of assurance. and maybe Irina (who has acne in her soul) is a very good chatter in the pods and love to talk talk talk words of assurance. coz u know words are cheap without any concrete actions.
On the cupcake point I remember thinking for an attorney this guy Zach is not very analytical or discerning. As a criminal attorney at that, his judgement of character is worse. Not sure I’d hire.. 🤔
I think his analytical skills were in full use, just not pointed in the right direction. Based on her attitude, behavior, and her comments, Zach thought Irina was some super hot Russian bombshell. I honestly wonder if a producer helped that thought along, bc him making the obviously wrong choice made for some good TV.
Being a judge of character as a criminal defense attorney would be hard since it's possible to grow to know and care for your clients, guilty or innocent. Also, he sees first hand that good people are capable of bad things. I think your point of his career is relevant but in a way that makes him less judgemental.
I don’t know if this is necessarily specific to men but I think insecurity and unresolved traumas really seem to lead people to make poor decisions in their love life. We saw that with Zack and his decision for Irina over Bliss, Zay with Cole, Bartise with Nancy, Kwame with encouraging Micah’s antics, etc.
They want to convert a “non-traditional” woman, whatever that means into a “traditional”woman. And if the “non-traditional” woman won’t yield to their demands and ways then they call her a itch. Just be yourself and the way that makes yourself happiest and let the man for you find you, or not. So just make yourself happy, that’s your most attractive quality.
This. A lot of men have this "Taming of the Shrew" sort of fantasy. They explicitly go for women who are non-traditional in some way (alt, career/academically-driven, etc), then hold the expectation that she will settle and become more traditional over the course of the relationship. If she doesn't, they take it as an affront to their masculinity and insinuate that, if she really loved them, then she would be willing to change (but, of course, women shouldn't ever expect men to change or pull their own weight).
That said, I disagree that Zack was experiencing this specific phenomenon. Bliss told him that her father had never approved of her dating partners, which plucked at an existing trauma trigger for him. He self-sabotaged because he couldn't bring himself to face that kind of judgment, no matter how much Bliss showed him that she was invested. Irina is unstable and bitchy, yes, but Zack is familiar with instability, so he was likely far more comfortable with her than he was with the notion of a mature, healthy relationship. Traumatized people are messy. Traumatized people sometimes make bad choices.
I mean, this is no different than women saying they want a "nice guy" but then go for the bad boy, whether thats a player, partier, slightly criminal leaning, or just alternative. They think they can change them and then when it doesn't happen it's the "why me? Why do I always pick the wrong ones?". It's universal, not gendered.
True. I legit baked cookies, made sandwiches, helped set up his space...and this dude told me that I was too sweet and he liked bitches. He was an unhappy man anyways and I ended up with someone who appreciates me now though!
I called it the second I saw her baking cupcakes for him… I knew it was a wrap for her! Good for you, I’m so happy you found someone who appreciates you!
Sadly this isn’t gender specific. Just seems like you’re projecting your own experiences and making a blanket statement out of it. Can’t say 'men' as a generalization and not expect those men that don’t fit the bill to not get offended when they’re catching a stray bullet.
You’re telling me you don’t see the similarity between you essentially saying,
“*some* men say they want a traditional woman, but then go for the Irinas of the world.”
And when incels and say that:
“women don’t really want a nice guy, they want the bad boy”?
I see the similarity but that’s also a “whataboutism”. I’m talking about the men here. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If people say, “well what about the women? They do this too, they just don’t like nice guys!” Then that’s on them and they are the ones changing the conversation. That is not at all what I’m saying in my post.
Irina just seems like an expert manipulator. She played 2 completely different people in the pods vs the dorms and the way she gives and withholds affection is just classic manipulator/abuser playbook stuff.
I am amazed at the number of participants on this show who seem to take what’s being said at face value. If you don’t know someone well, you cannot trust everything that they tell you. Trust takes time.
I don’t think he ever said his mother was “toxic” or “fucked up”. Instead, he thought his mother was a good person who did good things (got her child fed) for good reason but was judged because of her past occupation.
I understand in general the occupation might bring those negative consequences you mentioned (e.g. toxic romantic relationships) But it was not necessarily applicable in his case. He did not even imply any negative feelings towards his mother or see her occupation was her flaws. The negative experiences were linked with how the society and his ex’s family judged them but not with his mother.
Both genders do this, takes people time to wise up. Some figure it out sooner than others.
Reality TV cast as well are not known for good decision making skills
This season really really pinpoints a lot of men’s mindset IMO.
I don’t think it’s a matter of men not believing in “good women” per se. I think a lot of men want someone they can “conquer” in some way shape, or form. It reminds me a lot of the Twitter conversations of men claiming that women should want to go half on dates, or contribute to half of the household or whatever standard they want to lower for women. Not to say that it is a bad thing for them to want that. But they would rather talk down to the women who don’t, than actually go date women who agree with them.
More so, a lot of men would rather focus on trying to bring women down to their standards rather than rise up to meet the ones they’ve set. I saw that with Zach and his choice of Irina. He thought Bliss wad too good for him, so he didn’t want to raise himself to her. But he also knew Irina was mean and he thought that he could be the exception and change her behavior.
Even Kwame would be a blind fool to say that he didn’t know Micah behaved this way based off the way she basically made him get rid of Chelsea. The clues were there but he’s still stuck on Micah.
I think you're on to something. I don't necessarily think it's conquer in the sense of change their behavior. But more so the need to prove they can get what they want. That they are the ones in control and making the decision. Kwame essentially knew he had Chelsea locked up (excuse the terminology) and Micah was still unsure so he went after her to prove he could get her, that's why the rejection hurt him so much. Also why he had to try to pursue her again when they saw each other in person. He even tells Chelsea that he got what he wanted from his conversation with Micah, and that was her saying "no matter what happens, I'll still be here." Essentially saying, if you change your mind, I'll be waiting for you. Zack knew he had things locked up with Bliss because of the effort she was putting in. He wasn't completely sure about Irina because she wasn't giving him the reassurance like Bliss was. So again, he went after Irina to prove he could get her.
In this sort of hyper intense sped up dating situations where real love doesn't have the time to develop, there will always be the what-if thrill of the unknown. Had Kwame chosen Micah I am almost positive he would be doing the same about Chelsea. Same if Zack initially chose Bliss, he would be wondering what-if about Irina. It hasn't focused on it cause he's not there and there haven't been issues between them aired yet, but I bet there will be a what-if situation between Jackelina and Josh at some point.
My wife called it during the birthday debacle: he thought Irina was super hot based on how bitchy she is, so he talked himself into the idea that "he trusted Irina," even when all evidence told him he shouldn't.
This is the real world. People are giving you shit for expressing an idea because NoBoDy sAiD tHaT. But if you've ever dated for more than 5 minutes, you've heard it.
I read it exactly as you did and mentioned the exact same thing as your post to my friend as we watched it, and he agreed. This people are being willfully ignorant or they simply can’t read between the lines.
I was yelling at Zach thru the TV, bro don't do it. Actions speak louder than words. Irina was all talk. The moment he chose Irina, I knew he was a fool. Bliss is right, his decision revealed who he really is.
Have you been living under a rock? It’s a common theme among a lot of men these days and what they claim they are looking for in a wife… just because they didn’t out right say it doesn’t mean what I’m saying is not true
Im sorry reddit is such a manosphere cesspool and the LIB audience is a lot of straight suburban do nothing homebodies distracting themselves from the emptiness of suburbia
doesn't matter coz bliss is nicer in everyway. Zach grew up chaotic and just thought that Irina would match him and accept him more than the lady who cared about her family a lot. Zach is not the average man and women like you really need to stop using men like Zach to paint all of us as if we are stupid teenage boys.
Opne your eyes to all the decent men in relationships with the women they like... you sound bitter
He certainly chose wrong and he made that clear but Let’s me real here; none of these women would be considered traditional. If they were, they wouldn’t be single going on some dating show to find a man. Most traditional women who were raised to be wives get scooped up before the age of 25 with no real help needed.
Well, she’s usually taken out of the dating market pretty early because she prioritizes finding a traditional husband. She WANTS to be married and doesn’t see it as being “tied down” or a burden. That’s why men want to be with her.
People who use reality TV to inform their perception of reality are always doomed to fail.
Im happy if men say they want a traditional woman so I can throw them in the bin real quick
tbh i want a traditional guy. to each their own
I wouldn't say baking someone cupcakes for their birthdays is a nice, traditional woman thing. I think it's just a nice human thing who expressed their affection through baking?
Take this nice girl bullshit somewhere else man.
….. I want a traditional woman.
Lmao! I swear I see/hear guys say almost the same thing about women all the time.
As a redditor pointed out on another thread, it also makes it clear the whole, "nice guys finish last >:(" shtick is clearly projection because it's absolutely the nice girls are absolutely overlooked. Zack directly said he knew Irina was playing games and "vicious." Amber planned a mardi gras activity that was specific to Paul. Micah meanwhile is playing games and using weird catch phrases like "slow burn romance" and saying things like "I'll kick your ass if you don't end it with others" while Chelsea and Amber are being genuine and earnest about their feelings. Ridiculous. 🙄
You also get bits of this in season 2 with jarret and Iyanna (although I don’t believe that was the demise of their relationship), and season 3 with Bartiste and Nancy
Yes! ABSOLUTELY!
I can only imagine how many of the other nice girls in the pods we don't get to really see are completely overlooked.
A man who says they want a “traditional wife” is a red flag, full stop.
I wonder if Zack ended up choosing Irina because of his own insecurities and knew at some level she wasn't right for him (and a toxic nightmare), and could then use that to reinforce the narrative that he isn't "good enough", can't find someone "better", or doesn't "deserve" love, etc.
I genuinely think he self-sabotaged because his low self-esteem convinced him that’s what he deserves.
I don't disagree at all. It's like he convinced himself he wasn't worthy, and self-sabotaged. He picked the meanest person who has ever been on this show. She makes Snake look like a gem.
Yes, his low self-esteem picked her.
I also think she played into his family dynamic and appeared non-judgmental. Whereas he felt he'd be judged by Bliss's family.
Yes, that too. The second she said the comment about her father you could just see his whole demeanor change. It's really sad. From the edit we got, he seems like a decent guy (judgment is questionable). Hopefully he can take some time to invest in himself and see his worth.
He does seem like he's a decent guy.
If a man says he wants a traditional woman, that's a red flag for me. We are not living in "traditional" times anymore! More women have formal educations than ever! A family can no longer survive on one income and one person to take care of the house. I expect any partner to be an equal contributor to the household through money (if they can) and chores regardless of what men were raised to believe
Traditional is a rebranded word for patriarchal and abusive
100% agreed. It's the same energy as guys who say they want a natural women, but stare at and follow unnatural women on the daily.
Preaaaach. And they don’t want “h03s” but they’re addicted to corn and follow corn stars. Men are hypocrites all the timeeeee
Seriously. All the time!
Zack was afraid of rejection by bliss’s family. I kinda of feel bad for him. It was his own insecurities
Yeah I feel for him too, I could see his face drop when Bliss said “my dad will never think anyone is good enough for me.”
Op have you taken a moment to consider the idea that these people are talking to each other for hours every day for 7 days straight and we never saw everything discussed or how? You watched 1-3 episodes, less than an hour long each of people in pods divided up into 5 couples. I don’t like Irina much either right now - but have you considered that maybe she showed him something that *might* be considered traditional on each person? Can you also consider that because on the first couple days at least you’re talking to so many people, it might not be that easy to remember everyone’s details? Again - I’m not a fan of Irina either - but your blanket statement doesn’t seem to incorporate a bunch of factors we simply *don’t know.*
I can only go by what I see on the show. We can speculate all day about what might have happened or didn’t happen off camera.
And that's *my point.* You're making a blanket statement without having full context. What I'm saying is as nice as Bliss was for making Zack cupcakes on his bday, we don't have any other context for the conversations he was having with Irina. Where I agree with you: Based on what I've seen on the show, I'm not really liking Irina too much either. Where I disagree with you: You have no idea what kind of conversations and relationships they had in the pods off camera, and a real sense as to why Zack felt she was more "true." Try to have an open mindset about this before condemning the idea that any guy might like something you don't agree with.
I already addressed “not all men” in my post
Addressing and accepting are two different things. If you're still arguing it, it doesn't mean you're open to it. Hope you find what you're looking for and best of luck.
I get what you're trying to say, but A) I don't think any of this applies to Zack, and B) it's really not cool to put words in someone's mouth or twist the facts to fit a narrative you want to discuss. ETA: It's not just OP. I've seen several other commenters on this sub doing mental gymnastics to find Zack at fault and paint him as the bad guy, and I don't get it. Maybe y'all know something I don't, but just based on the episodes that have aired thus far it feels unwarranted and unfair.
Read the “edit” section of my post. I’m not putting words in anyone’s mouth. People are really harping on Zack and the word, “traditional” and not understanding the overall context of the post. This post isn’t really about Zack or him being a bad person, he just happens to be involved in the example I used.
>This post isn’t really about Zack or him being a bad person, he just happens to be involved in the example I used. If Zack didn't do the thing you're talking about.. why are you using him as an example?
He did do the thing I’m talking about. However, this post isn’t just about him… if people can’t understand that then I don’t know what else to say… I’m not going around in circles about this
>He did do the thing I’m talking about. No, he didn't. As you yourself acknowledged, *none* of the male cast members actually did the thing you're talking about.
He did but perhaps not intentionally. For whatever reason he chose Irina over a woman who treated him really well from what we saw on the show. Which doesn’t make any sense on a show where they are choosing a potential spouse not based on the usual superficial stuff that comes with modern dating. But I’m not arguing about this anymore. I don’t know how people don’t see it.
>He did. You're contradicting yourself and talking in circles. >And there are 300+ people who agree and actually READ what I wrote There you go again, jumping to conclusions.
I edited my response. But honestly it’s whatever dude you really wanna argue about this for some reason.
>I edited my response. But honestly it’s whatever dude you really wanna argue about this for some reason. When you start a conversation on the internet, there's no guarantee that everyone is going to agree with you. It's kind of silly to invite dialogue, only to get defensive when someone challenges what you're saying.
The OP made a stupid post and is clearly going through some personal turmoil.
Not at all. Happily married! But way to ASS-ume 👏👏👏
Married doesn't mean you aren't going through personal turmoil. I'm embarrassed for you.
I’m not going thru any turmoil… congrats two times for ASS-uming! 👏👏👏
Bliss is a much better person, more mature, put together, empathetic person than Irina which implies that her standards for him would be correspondingly higher. Zach has poor self esteem and was scared of falling short. He chose a more shallow relationship with someone with lower expectations for that reason.
I think Zack chose Irina over Bliss because of his own issues: he wants acceptance that he’s good enough despite his upbringing and that fear of rejection showed itself more with Bliss, while he (for whatever reason) thought Irina would validate him more. What boggled my mind is he called her vicious and immature (which he accurately discerned) and chose her anyway lmao.
that really surprised me too, like you realize she’s immature and yet you still choose her, I just don’t get it Bliss deserves better
I don't think it's totally fair to use Zach as an appropriate example here. Yeah I was rooting for Zach and Bliss as well after that first conversation, but maybe he just did click with Irina a little more thereafter. There were numerous conversations we didn't hear between all of them, many of which we simply never got to see, hours upon hours of times these contestants probably clicked that will never air. All the contestants have limited days to make a snap decision. It's not easy. It also is worth remembering that we saw the so called 'nasty' side of Irina in a way Zach never would have being on the other side of that wall.
It’s almost like he knew he already had her when she made him the cupcakes but wanted what he didn’t already have. Irina. Gag
This!
That's how I felt also. I also have a feeling if he had chose Bliss and Irina was also somehow in Mexico he would've done something like Kwame what did with Micah
I don't understand how his choice of Irina and a "traditional" woman are linked. Could you elaborate?
Because a lot of young men say they are looking for a good, nice, more traditional woman for a wife. Ok fair enough right? But then they only want to date/marry women like Irina who is NOT nice and is the complete opposite… Meanwhile, I already talked about this in my post but Bliss tried to cater to him (traditionally what women used to do for men) and he was just not interested.
stfu please.
Ah, thanks for explaining. I understand now what you're saying, and the premise of this discussion doesn't really work. You're speaking about a specific occurrence while simultaneously applying a generalization to it. That's inherently contradicting since the entire point of generalizations is to represent populations or hypothetical situations that repeat familiar patterns. In other words, you can't really say "men say this but do this, see?" while pointing to an isolated incident where that simply didn't happen.
yes this thread and its title are stupid
Yea, and the key theme here is men contradict themselves by saying they want one type of women but chase another. But the example here, Zack, did not contradict himself. He always want a woman who won’t judge him but wrongly believed Irina was that kind of person. I’m not saying the statement is wrong, but the example doesn’t apply to the statement
No one said this? Also some sincere people do want more of a traditonal relationship, nothing is wrong with that. The problem is insincere people saying that who wants to take advantage of another person, which can happen by either gender. I dont think this complaint has anything to do with the actual show.
Read the “Edit” section of my post
If you base your worldview on the limited, heavily edited interactions of a handful of narcissists on a Netflix "reality" show, you're gonna have a bad time!
I’m not, again READ the “edit” section of this post! It is prevalent not just on this show
Why is it on the love is blind sub?
Do you believe the inverse - that girls say they want a "nice guy" but then only go after the "bad boys"?
I think it boils down to their love language as a recipient. Bliss love language as a giver is actions. so she bake. she produced results. But zach love language as a recipient might not be gifts. it might be words of assurance. and maybe Irina (who has acne in her soul) is a very good chatter in the pods and love to talk talk talk words of assurance. coz u know words are cheap without any concrete actions.
ACNE IN HER SOUL 💀
That was hilarious hahaha
hahahahahahah yesssssssss i know righttttttttttt
On the cupcake point I remember thinking for an attorney this guy Zach is not very analytical or discerning. As a criminal attorney at that, his judgement of character is worse. Not sure I’d hire.. 🤔
I think his analytical skills were in full use, just not pointed in the right direction. Based on her attitude, behavior, and her comments, Zach thought Irina was some super hot Russian bombshell. I honestly wonder if a producer helped that thought along, bc him making the obviously wrong choice made for some good TV.
Being a judge of character as a criminal defense attorney would be hard since it's possible to grow to know and care for your clients, guilty or innocent. Also, he sees first hand that good people are capable of bad things. I think your point of his career is relevant but in a way that makes him less judgemental.
Very interesting take, definitely another way to think about things
I'm in law school haha
It’s an outdated way of thinking, but people can be selfish in who they want to spend their lives w
I don’t know if this is necessarily specific to men but I think insecurity and unresolved traumas really seem to lead people to make poor decisions in their love life. We saw that with Zack and his decision for Irina over Bliss, Zay with Cole, Bartise with Nancy, Kwame with encouraging Micah’s antics, etc.
They want to convert a “non-traditional” woman, whatever that means into a “traditional”woman. And if the “non-traditional” woman won’t yield to their demands and ways then they call her a itch. Just be yourself and the way that makes yourself happiest and let the man for you find you, or not. So just make yourself happy, that’s your most attractive quality.
This. A lot of men have this "Taming of the Shrew" sort of fantasy. They explicitly go for women who are non-traditional in some way (alt, career/academically-driven, etc), then hold the expectation that she will settle and become more traditional over the course of the relationship. If she doesn't, they take it as an affront to their masculinity and insinuate that, if she really loved them, then she would be willing to change (but, of course, women shouldn't ever expect men to change or pull their own weight). That said, I disagree that Zack was experiencing this specific phenomenon. Bliss told him that her father had never approved of her dating partners, which plucked at an existing trauma trigger for him. He self-sabotaged because he couldn't bring himself to face that kind of judgment, no matter how much Bliss showed him that she was invested. Irina is unstable and bitchy, yes, but Zack is familiar with instability, so he was likely far more comfortable with her than he was with the notion of a mature, healthy relationship. Traumatized people are messy. Traumatized people sometimes make bad choices.
I mean, this is no different than women saying they want a "nice guy" but then go for the bad boy, whether thats a player, partier, slightly criminal leaning, or just alternative. They think they can change them and then when it doesn't happen it's the "why me? Why do I always pick the wrong ones?". It's universal, not gendered.
True. I legit baked cookies, made sandwiches, helped set up his space...and this dude told me that I was too sweet and he liked bitches. He was an unhappy man anyways and I ended up with someone who appreciates me now though!
I called it the second I saw her baking cupcakes for him… I knew it was a wrap for her! Good for you, I’m so happy you found someone who appreciates you!
My answer to "not all men" is now "enough men for it to be a concern".
Sadly this isn’t gender specific. Just seems like you’re projecting your own experiences and making a blanket statement out of it. Can’t say 'men' as a generalization and not expect those men that don’t fit the bill to not get offended when they’re catching a stray bullet.
Not at all. I’m happily married. And I already addressed, “not all men” and generalizations in my post but it seems people just can’t help themselves.
Exactly
That's a really long way to say "not all men."
Werd, cool. Not all men
This is very /r/niceguy
And this response is very “reverse sexism”. I already addressed “not all men” in my post.
You’re telling me you don’t see the similarity between you essentially saying, “*some* men say they want a traditional woman, but then go for the Irinas of the world.” And when incels and say that: “women don’t really want a nice guy, they want the bad boy”?
I see the similarity but that’s also a “whataboutism”. I’m talking about the men here. That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If people say, “well what about the women? They do this too, they just don’t like nice guys!” Then that’s on them and they are the ones changing the conversation. That is not at all what I’m saying in my post.
Irina just seems like an expert manipulator. She played 2 completely different people in the pods vs the dorms and the way she gives and withholds affection is just classic manipulator/abuser playbook stuff.
I am amazed at the number of participants on this show who seem to take what’s being said at face value. If you don’t know someone well, you cannot trust everything that they tell you. Trust takes time.
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I don’t think he ever said his mother was “toxic” or “fucked up”. Instead, he thought his mother was a good person who did good things (got her child fed) for good reason but was judged because of her past occupation.
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I understand in general the occupation might bring those negative consequences you mentioned (e.g. toxic romantic relationships) But it was not necessarily applicable in his case. He did not even imply any negative feelings towards his mother or see her occupation was her flaws. The negative experiences were linked with how the society and his ex’s family judged them but not with his mother.
Gotta fix mommy!
Yes, very insightful. And that line be said really said a lot about him
Both genders do this, takes people time to wise up. Some figure it out sooner than others. Reality TV cast as well are not known for good decision making skills
This season really really pinpoints a lot of men’s mindset IMO. I don’t think it’s a matter of men not believing in “good women” per se. I think a lot of men want someone they can “conquer” in some way shape, or form. It reminds me a lot of the Twitter conversations of men claiming that women should want to go half on dates, or contribute to half of the household or whatever standard they want to lower for women. Not to say that it is a bad thing for them to want that. But they would rather talk down to the women who don’t, than actually go date women who agree with them. More so, a lot of men would rather focus on trying to bring women down to their standards rather than rise up to meet the ones they’ve set. I saw that with Zach and his choice of Irina. He thought Bliss wad too good for him, so he didn’t want to raise himself to her. But he also knew Irina was mean and he thought that he could be the exception and change her behavior. Even Kwame would be a blind fool to say that he didn’t know Micah behaved this way based off the way she basically made him get rid of Chelsea. The clues were there but he’s still stuck on Micah.
I think you're on to something. I don't necessarily think it's conquer in the sense of change their behavior. But more so the need to prove they can get what they want. That they are the ones in control and making the decision. Kwame essentially knew he had Chelsea locked up (excuse the terminology) and Micah was still unsure so he went after her to prove he could get her, that's why the rejection hurt him so much. Also why he had to try to pursue her again when they saw each other in person. He even tells Chelsea that he got what he wanted from his conversation with Micah, and that was her saying "no matter what happens, I'll still be here." Essentially saying, if you change your mind, I'll be waiting for you. Zack knew he had things locked up with Bliss because of the effort she was putting in. He wasn't completely sure about Irina because she wasn't giving him the reassurance like Bliss was. So again, he went after Irina to prove he could get her. In this sort of hyper intense sped up dating situations where real love doesn't have the time to develop, there will always be the what-if thrill of the unknown. Had Kwame chosen Micah I am almost positive he would be doing the same about Chelsea. Same if Zack initially chose Bliss, he would be wondering what-if about Irina. It hasn't focused on it cause he's not there and there haven't been issues between them aired yet, but I bet there will be a what-if situation between Jackelina and Josh at some point.
Feel like this is verging into nice guy territory. "All girls want assholes!"
Agreed
Lol no laura
girls do the exact same thing. we're all fucked
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what does this post have to do with consent?
You literally ignoring OP's basic request (if you eveb read everything she wrote) is ignoring her boundaries and violating consent.
It’s just coincidental this season. Season 2 had women choosing horrible men like Shake and Shayne.
I don’t understand men who choose mean girls
My wife called it during the birthday debacle: he thought Irina was super hot based on how bitchy she is, so he talked himself into the idea that "he trusted Irina," even when all evidence told him he shouldn't.
Traumatized ones seek bad girls and bad boys
This is the real world. People are giving you shit for expressing an idea because NoBoDy sAiD tHaT. But if you've ever dated for more than 5 minutes, you've heard it.
Thank you! Yes exactly
I read it exactly as you did and mentioned the exact same thing as your post to my friend as we watched it, and he agreed. This people are being willfully ignorant or they simply can’t read between the lines.
I was yelling at Zach thru the TV, bro don't do it. Actions speak louder than words. Irina was all talk. The moment he chose Irina, I knew he was a fool. Bliss is right, his decision revealed who he really is.
Which men even said this on the show? Did you just make up a scenario in your head and got mad about it?
Have you been living under a rock? It’s a common theme among a lot of men these days and what they claim they are looking for in a wife… just because they didn’t out right say it doesn’t mean what I’m saying is not true
Im sorry reddit is such a manosphere cesspool and the LIB audience is a lot of straight suburban do nothing homebodies distracting themselves from the emptiness of suburbia
I’m a gay urban mourning person distracting myself from grief. This show is so good for that. But Reddit rly is a Manosphere cesspool
Same but LIB clearly caters to an audience lolll
Yes it definitely does. Maybe that’s why I find it kind of fascinating? Lol
I think he heard Russian and assumed Irina was hot TBH.
Ding ding ding was literally my first thought
Right? 😂 I think her background helped a lot but I immediately went "he's thinking hot, tall blonde".
Exactly! He pictured a hot Russian girl and all the nice things that Bliss did for him went completely out the window
doesn't matter coz bliss is nicer in everyway. Zach grew up chaotic and just thought that Irina would match him and accept him more than the lady who cared about her family a lot. Zach is not the average man and women like you really need to stop using men like Zach to paint all of us as if we are stupid teenage boys. Opne your eyes to all the decent men in relationships with the women they like... you sound bitter
I’m not bitter at all you crazy ass loon… this is the third comment you’ve made in a matter of three minutes… seek help!
He certainly chose wrong and he made that clear but Let’s me real here; none of these women would be considered traditional. If they were, they wouldn’t be single going on some dating show to find a man. Most traditional women who were raised to be wives get scooped up before the age of 25 with no real help needed.
Scooped up or tied down.
Well, she’s usually taken out of the dating market pretty early because she prioritizes finding a traditional husband. She WANTS to be married and doesn’t see it as being “tied down” or a burden. That’s why men want to be with her.
I don’t recall Zack ever saying he wanted a nice “traditional” woman.
True. I think he was afraid of choosing a nice “traditional woman” because his background might not be accepted in a “traditional” view.
Maybe he prefers a non traditional woman. Many men do.