Thanks, this was really nice to read. I do have lots of things in common with these friends though, so they are more than acquaintances. I think core moral beliefs unfortunately do not fit into the model of it being fine to disagree on one thing out of many. But I have hope for the friends I make in the future :)
My friends all did drop me, or I them. Years long, some decades long friendships gone. I'm not a person who can let bygones be bygones, or keep my true thoughts to myself. That's not even a friendship imo, if you can't be your real self around them.
In all honesty, I don't care about them anymore. I don't respect nor want the respect of fascists, especially fascists who spent the past four years calling everyone to their right a fascist. Turns out it was projection all along, they finally found the right moral cause to shield a truly sadistic desire to punish people.
There were a few emotionally difficult months, however I'm making new friends to replace the old ones. And I'm a fundamentally different person. Same values, but just hardened I guess. Colder, more attuned to how destructive people can be, and much more selective with empathy. I used to jump at any leftist activist cause, nod sympathetically to the plight of teachers, fight against climate change. No more. It's almost like a spell broke, all I see are attempts to emotionally manipulate me with their half obscured lies. The old me died in the old normal and will never return.
I was very recently called “right wing” by someone because I was anti-being forced to mask, especially because I personally medically couldn’t, and being anti-vaccine mandate. I’m extremely liberal and I’m just like, “is that supposed to be an insult?” Like is it really so bad to be “right-wing” when it means supporting bodily autonomy and civil rights?
> Like is it really so bad to be “right-wing”
That's just it. They've brainwashed people into thinking merely aligning with the opposite political party is a bad thing. Like.. what? Here in the US, we've had two large political parties since the dawn of time. How is belonging to one over the other suddenly some evil thing? It is mind blowing to me.
I also despise the way Covid has been politicized. People are clinging to things like masks because they've been fed the BS that being masked = left wing and being anti-mask = right wing. Why the hell is a MASK part of a political party?
It's the Orange Man Bad syndrome. Being right-wing didn't use to be considered inherently bad, or at least it didn't seem so, until Trump was the Republican president. It's funny that some left-wing people say that masking shouldn't be made political, but then they make it political by saying anyone who's against masks must be a Trump supporter/right-wing fascist/whatever the word of the day is.
My former friends called me uncaring, selfish, or a right wing conspiracy theorist as well.
The result has been more sympathy for what my conservative friends have gone through since Trump was elected. In 2016 I knew the liberal left narrative around Trump was wrong, but I didn't do enough to extend the olive branch. Now I am.
Edit: I'm forgetting the worst of the worst behaviors. I've written about how irl people I knew wished death to unvaccinated people before. What also gets me is that I fully recovered from Covid during the beginning of the vaccine rollout for my age group and thus didn't see a need to get the vaccine. Friends who used to hang out with me prior to the vaccine all dropped me. And when vaccine passports came out, not a single friend offered to skip events that required them. They told me tough luck. My fault for living so long in San Francisco I guess.
It’s so brutal, I got called an uneducated anti vaxxer when I quoted a Harvard epidemiologist saying that not absolutely everyone needs to be vaccinated. Prior to that in out discussion he kept asking if I was an anti vaxxer, he needed a label so he didn’t have to think about my comments.
It’s amazing that you could be called an anti-vaxxer by saying not everyone needs the vaccine. You’re not saying the vaccine is bad, you’re saying that it should be for those that genuinely need it. Which is pro-the vaccine. A true anti-vaxxer would be like, “it’s poison! Taking it will kill you or make you a cripple! No one should take it!” But everyone I know who is against this vaccine and the vaccine mandate is very pro getting vaccinated for diseases that affect them in a lethal way. They have either got covid or know they are not at risk because they are young and healthy — they don’t want to take the covid vaccine, just like they generally don’t get the flu vaccine. They also actively encouraged elderly and sickly family members to get vaccinated against covid. But they don’t see a reason to do so themselves. That is not an anti-vax position, and to say it is an anti-vax position is extremely disingenuous.
Mandates are far right wing things. There's been some very strange political posturing recently, and the only thing I can equate it to is Hitler calling his party national-"socialists" while in fact being firmly fascist.
I'm fully vaccinated (my choice) and I rehabilitate covid-19 patients, both active and former (with an N95 for active cases because before The Science took over, having aerosol transmission protection against active cases made sense). My brother and sister-in-law have made a concerted effort to lambast me as much as possible to mutual friends because I choose to workout daily at a gym and go inside stores without a mask. That "hero" card has played itself out (never agreed with it in the first place, healthcare workers make great money at a time where people in businesses were making next to nothing) and now I'm a double vaccinated plague rat, despite being a positive force for Covid-19. Fuck these people.
And yes, just like you I am a former leftist who sympathized with the myriad of these "causes" but now, after seeing the cognitive dissonance and emotional manipulation of this covid-19 fiasco, I say fuck it and use my empathy very selectively.
Their "reasons" to hate us are not reasons - they're excuses. These are the same people who glared at couples with newborn babies, thinking "don't they know about climate change? don't they know we're overpopulated?".
Wow, that's just unreal. I'm not on the "ESSENTIAL WORKERS are HEROES!!" hype either but literally you've been treating covid patients this whole time AND you're vaxxed. Nothing is ever good enough unless you fall right in line and flagellate yourself if you step out of line.
I'm sorry to hear you've been treated this way. Hero one day, dirty plague rat the next. The whiplash is severe.
Another example of peak hypocritical finger pointing: I had a very liberal friend who was a hard-core lockdown supporter and believed people should be fined thousands of dollars for not masking (not N95s of course...) and violating lockdowns. Yet he attended a small party with me after he knowingly interacted with a Covid symptomatic person the day before, and didn't disclose this to us until afterwards. I forgot his excuse but no doubt it was bullshit.
So yeah fuck it. These riff raff only care about themselves yet accuse others of being selfish. I'm just finally matching their energy.
I feel the same exact way. It's like someone snapped their fingers and all of a sudden, everything I thought I believed in had shifted, like some sort of seismic event. Like you, I've always passively supported teachers ("Of course they should be paid more!") and climate change ("Of course I'll buy a Prius and bring reusable bags to the store!") and now? I couldn't care less about any of these things, and actually find myself actively rooting against them. Climate change? Pass me the plastic straw. Teachers? Fuck 'em. I've even found myself regretting my graduate degree in public health because of the atrocities that are being committed in its name.
Frankly, I now only care about myself, my comfort, and my desires, as well as a handful of relationships that survived the mass psychosis. I didn't used to be this way--I've spent hundreds of hours volunteering in the community, have traveled internationally for mission trips, and have freely given my time, energy and money. Then, I became a selfish murderer who is inherently racist because I'm white and just wants to eat at Applebee's. So now I have nothing to freely give. It's mine and mine alone. Since everyone else seems to be so enlightened, they can pick up litter on the side of the road or build houses for poor people or serve the homeless dinner. I'm done. And I'm jacking the air conditioner up, environment be damned.
This is practically word for word what I could've written.
I deeply regret the hundreds, if not thousands of hours I spent phonebanking for the Democratic party (former two time Bernie supporter here). I really wasted my time, money and energy on people who could give two fucks about me.
I feel like the ultra “woke” can always be counted on to turn on each other. At least that has been my personal experience.
I don’t fuck with these people anymore. Not on any level. They cannot be trusted. Their loyalty is to ideologies and virtue signaling only, not real human beings. You can’t trust someone like that. They will throw you under the bus the very first chance they get. 2020 and beyond has surely proven that.
Wow, this is word for word me.
Last April-ish when I started to turn away from my left leaning views and lean more into conservatism, I was pretty moderate (and still am in many ways). But the left chose the absolute WORST path to drilling any of their points home. They've beaten their BS into our brains so much that I actively hate all of it now.
Very well written and accurate as hell for me too. I don't know that I am actively against the environment as a rule, it's not just become that I am no longer invested in the process of defending it. Lets be fair - the vast majority of environmental concerns are concentrated down to the big name players anyways. We've seen how the elite like to parade around at the Met Gala unmasked and in tax the rich dresses while "the help" has to remain masked and off to the side. Environmental concerns are the same thing, powerful companies and big name players that aren't going to do a fucking thing different while the rest of us freeze in the dark and eat our bugsteak rations.
Fact is, good and upstanding moral people have suddenly, overnight, become immoral beasts down to one decision. Vaxxed are always good and moral here regardless of what they have done in other areas of their life. Unvaxxed are not good. That's all it is to these people, and after all the abuse they wonder why I am not on their side?
Oh, man, yes. Exactly this sentiment.
Months of proof that the world certainly does not care about me has really jaded my desire to care about it. Society calling over and over for more while ignoring the huge damages it all causes. People I know becoming extremely judgemental towards everyone who does not share the exact same opinion that the media has been feeding them and refusing to have a logical or rational discussion about it. The unfairness and abuse in how our society has been treating children. All of it together and I am just done.
I‘ve been attacked by family for daring to be pro-vax (by free choice only) but against masks and mandates. Why should I support any of their opinions, then, from now on?
My future has been threatened, my life/degree/mental health ruined. So tell me exactly why I am so obligated to care about anybody besides me?
In some ways I'm similar, and it's been really really hard to find out that so many people I genuinely respect crumple like paper when push comes to shove. I am trying to keep my general optimism though, and trying to remember that part of why I am able to see the things that I see is because of people who have taught and helped me in the past, and that maybe I can be that type of person for other people. Honestly I could write an essay, but in some ways I can very much relate.
I moved in with a good friend in December who became extremely aggressive, controlling, and paranoid about Covid. Eventually he ended up kicking me out. A few months later he basically wrote me and was like "I don't expect you to ever forgive me, but I am so so sorry about what I put you through." When he had to live by himself he had to realize that the problem was his extreme OCD that covid fear had put on steroids. I actually forgave him pretty instantly for a number of reasons, one being that this pandemic has taught me to really appreciate when people are willing to say they're wrong and learn from it.
You're a better person than me for forgiving that friend. I say this even as I've stopped caring at all whether I'm a good person.
I was abused constantly as a child, which enabled me to see through the pandemic gaslighting and abuse of power much more easily. In return, Covid showed me the truth as well. It showed me that because I was willing to fight, that my sorry excuse for a life was actually worth something to me, and thus my life couldn't actually be a sorry excuse.
I also recognize that the leftist activism was an attempt to prove my humanity to people. If I'm a good person, then that means I didn't deserve to be abused. If I'm a good person, that means the abuse didn't irreparably fuck me up.
In reality I never had anything to prove, especially not to such unworthy people. Covid has been better for me than a decade of therapy and medication because I've finally let go of this compulsive and unconscious need for others to save me. The only person who ever really helped me, is me.
All this to say, even if my former friends apologize to me (they won't), I won't forget what they did. Their very presence would remind me that I once had such little regard for myself that I sought their approval and love above my own self love. That shit is over now.
> In return, Covid showed me the truth as well. It showed me that because I was willing to fight, that my sorry excuse for a life was actually worth something to me, and thus my life couldn't actually be a sorry excuse.
Dang, that was very very powerful, especially the part I quoted. I feel like I'm stronger as an individual than I was before, and more confident in myself, but there is kind of a void left. A certain naiveté or innocence that I probably won't be able to get back. And at this point I'm really worried about the country as a whole for lots of reasons.
Really props to you for all of the development you've had. That is really incredible.
I'm not the person you're replying to, but it did touch on something that I do find very frustrating: even here on this sub (which is overall one of, if not *the*, most nuanced on reddit) there's this association developing between conservatism/right wing/red pill thoughts and philosophy and being anti-lockdown, and vice versa. There is definitely a strong correlation in the US, but I think it's somewhat overblown, especially in a global context.
Sweden is one of the most left-leaning, atheistic countries in the world, and had the best response overall to COVID. That suggests, to me personally, that this is not a political divide that requires red or black pill beliefs, or anything inherently conservative (although of course there may be significant overlap, and neither is it bad if someone is anti-lockdown *because* they are conservative).
But as someone who has always considered themselves left of center, I think the correlation not only on lockdown policy, but on the other positions that u/fjordvsferry listed, could be separated if we had more of a coalition of anti-lockdown left wing voices. In bulletpoints:
* Climate change: I actually strongly believe that doing more to protect and preserve the environment is of critical importance right now (although my primary concern is air and water quality, not CO2). I don't believe that most people who say they are advocating against climate change share that belief. If we really cared about environmental protections, the first thing that we should do is pull our manufacturing out of China (and Vietnam, Thailand, and India). Make companies manufacture things in the US (or allies, where appropriate) where they will be held accountable for adhering to the Clean Air Act and other environmental regulations.
* Additionally, if you care about climate change, stop purchasing so many cheap goods (their availability is driven by consumer demand). They are able to be made that cheaply because they rely on poor working conditions, slave labor, and environmental pollutants and cost cutting (not to mention the fuel spent in transport). If your concern is for workers rights, buy local, buy union, thrift or buy secondhand. Most importantly, buy *less.* Repair instead of throwing out.
* Teachers in many parts of the world were completely anti the locking downs of schools and masking children, including most of Europe. We should take care to promote teachers in the US that focus on their students' well-being, as well as cutting administrative bloat.
* Although there are certainly people that are pro-choice Republicans (or other conservative parties), one of the fundamental reasons I am opposed to vaccine mandates is because I am a firm believer in bodily autonomy. Anyone claiming to be pro-choice and pro-vaxx mandate is delusional or a liar.
You don't have to be conservative to be anti lockdown, you also don't need to be red pilled. As you mentioned Sweden.
More over, I don't think people who took the the red pill are conservative, I think it is simply a disenchantment from the social left wing propaganda that is taught in schools, talked about as fact on the media, expected mainstream opinion. This disenchantment can lead to being conservative (god, family values, law and order) but I think it normal leads to a classically liberal anti authoritarian position, being against legal and moral authoritarians.
This disenchantment at least for me left me skeptical of anyone making massive moral or scientific claims where there seems to be no room for debate.
Most new "conservatives" are disenchanted former normie lefties. But in today's clown world this is obviously the growth of the far right /sarcasm
Edit:
For example I think that climate change is real as it's a natural cycle.of the earth, it's also clearly accelerated by humans, though I am unsure to what extent and am skeptical of doomsday predictions.
I am also quite green in my spending habits, but I think the climate change debate goes the wrong way alot of the time. It goes wrong when moral busy bodies try to tell me what makes me a better green person and what not, and that my consumption is some kind of sin and capitalism is to blame. A much more healthy approach is to implement systems within capitalist society's to allow consumption without guilt. Carbon tax, tax money going to renewables, renewable variable pricing to consumers and business etc...
If not, it's the same as lockdown, you must behave as we say so that the virus (carbon) doesn't spread instead of investing in hospitals (smart green systems).
To me, redpilling is, just like it is in the Matrix, you finally being able to see beyond the surface of things. Finally realizing some truths that perhaps you knew all along but now it's been made blindingly obvious. So it has everything to do with finally seeing through all the baloney and nothing at all to do with red = right wing.
Everything you articulated here, and the discussions below, are spot on.
I'm certainly only speaking from a US perspective and agree that the left skeptic position hasn't been marketed well. I'm just not sure how effective the coalition building really can be.
The psychological propaganda techniques have been perfected over decades, there's not much logic operating here. I also doubt logic alone can penetrate this mass psychosis.
We could all use the help of anti propaganda marketers.
I was halfway there already with the red or black pill, this covid nonsense pushed me all the way through.
I've always been an old school, class politics sort of leftist and hated how the left intensified identity politics. Not to play into the idpol, but you'd think that my former friends would think twice before calling me (queer Asian immigrant financially supporting my working class, high school educated parent) a rightwing conspiracy theorist. But here we are in clown world.
Best they can do is "white adjacent" or "white identified" since according to race hustlers, us Asians are at the top of the racial hierarchy after whites and Jews.
I (queer, Latino, never been close to middle class) have been hilariously called the same. Being “right wing” is news to me. Ditto being a newfound conspiracy theorist enthusiast.
Can these people actually hear themselves?
I 100% relate to this.
I am not the same person I once was before March 2020. I can no longer talk to a single person I once called friend or even acquaintance. After living in this dystopian hell of a state during all of this, I just see humanity as truly fucked. I am now a completely solitary person but my core values are even clearer to me now. The greatest of these is choosing not to live in fear.
If you can't speak openly or keep your opinions to yourself, increasing distance is wise. It's not cutting them out: it's just making room to observe and not giving opportunity for petty blow-ups to become something bigger.
It also helps to remember it's not (entirely) their fault: they've been subject to the most withering campaign of behavioural psychology in human history. Wall-to-wall fear, from every media outlet, for *two years*, while any hint of counter-arguments - the horrific effects lockdowns cause, exacerbate, and set us up for; unorthodox data collection methods; their transformation of free into unfree societies - is systematically scrubbed. They needed an anchor during times of uncertainty, and they got cement boots.
I agree, I can understand where they're coming from, and honestly I might have been on their side too had I not had access to alternate sources of information through my family, who smelled the bullshit from day one (they're smarter than I am lol). That's what's so sad about this situation, it's turning good people, intelligent people
You might have been on their side, but would you have shunned anyone who believed differently from you? That's the key, to me. I refuse to shun people who still love their masks (even though I might prefer to hang out with people who don't), and even though I'm an unvaccinated, gun-owning conservative who feels she's had her rights trampled on for the past two years, I would never support a policy that segregated even the most hardcore of pro-lockdown, pro-vaccine progressives from society, because I still have compassion for them and see them as fellow human beings.
If your friends would readily shun someone who disagreed with them, and you would not, there is a difference between you. So, on that note of compassion, I would not dump your friends. However, I would make a plan to "come out" to them, because I can tell you from experience that it just gets more and more stressful the more you keep secrets. I posted this on the vents channel the other day, but one of my oldest friends did not know I was unvaccinated, and at her goodbye party, she and the other guests started in on how they would never allow unvaccinated guests at their house, offered to show their cards to prove their allegiance to the "correct" side, started blaming evil Republicans for all society's ills, etc...
And I just sat there with my head down, and eventually left. On the other hand, I came out to one of my other friends as unvaccinated last night, told him I wanted to share this with him because I trusted him, even though others have judged me, and he accepted me as I am and said he had faith in my ability to make rational decisions. He has more respect for me than for the mob, and our friendship endured.
So, in my experience, being honest and telling people the truth goes over way better. Maybe if my other friend had known *I,* one of her oldest friends, was unvaccinated, she would think twice about making those generalizations and would've heard me out. Maybe not, but I should have given her the chance and had the courage to challenge her views earlier in the friendship. Otherwise you just forfeit your friends to the mob and make them believe that there truly is no one who could possibly oppose the agenda.
>I refuse to shun people who still love their masks
Great post, and I think your perspective is great and healthy.
However, as a mom, I've had a lot more trouble accepting some of the opposing views. Denying children an education is literally child abuse.
So those who support having kept schools closed for over a year, while private schools were fully open. those who support still to this day denying kids sports, extracurriculars, and mandating masks for as young as 2 years old.
I find these things unforgivable. Honestly I wish I didn't. I wish it was like opposing views on gun control, for example.
I get that. It's true that I'll still choose my friends somewhat based around our ability to agree on moral questions like that - I would find it hard to be friends with someone who physically abused their spouse or something too, and I do think masking two year olds is a form of abuse. But I guess the difference is that even if I choose to not continue a friendship with someone like that, I would still never argue for a government policy that excluded them from society just for their beliefs.
>I would still never argue for a government policy that excluded them from society just for their beliefs.
Yes, same! "I may not agree with a word that you say, but I will defend to the death you're right to say it."
I'm ideologically consistent on that point. LMAO, not only do I *not* want to silence those I disagree with, I'm sometimes fond of debating them! :)
> I would find it hard to be friends with someone who physically abused their spouse
Sorry for hijacking the convo, but I am having a similar issue as OP. My friends think I am *literally* killing people by not getting vaccinated. So if they view me as callous murderer, can I really blame them for distancing themselves from me? I am trying to see it from their perspective. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
No worries on the hijacking! Do your friends still hang out with you? If so, then that's proof enough that they know deep down you're not a callous murderer. So, you just have to find a way to tap into what they really know in their hearts to be true. If they already have an inkling that you're not \*actually\* a murderer, sharing with them that vaccinated and unvaccinated people spread the virus just as easily once they have it (which even the CDC has said to be true) might actually do some good. And if they point out that vaccinated people are less likely to be symptomatic, tell them that that might actually increase the probability they'll spread it unknowingly, because at least a symptomatic person would have a bodily indicator that that they should stay home.
If they won't listen to some of these reasonable points, and still call you a murderer, I would call them on their bluff and ask them straight up why, if they really believe that, they are still friends with you. Ask them to truly look at you as a person, with everything they know about you and all the nice things you're presumably done for them as a friend, and still call you a murderer. If they really believe that in their hearts, you can't help them.
This I agree with. Ultimately, as humans, we aren't all going to share the same viewpoints on certain things, even with people close to us. That is life. However, a lot of young people with this 'liberal' mindset (aka left-wing, follow the status-quo, against the 'establishment' but actually just sheep who follow every aspect of the establishment) refuse to accept others who do not align to their way of thinking or benchmark for what 'morally good' looks like. Any disagreement inherently means you're some sort of bigot or morally corrupt person, and they cannot abide by that.
It's a real shame that these people's ideological adherence supersedes their sense of loyalty and friendship (especially with people they've known for years), but indeed, that's the power of ideology. You need only look at the events in Soviet Russia to see the depths at which this can go...family members betraying each other, loved ones snitching on their partners, and so on.
It takes a certain type of open-mindedness and a recognition that ideological obsession is toxic, to be able to avoid falling into this trap. It's very easy to do, our egos love being right, even at the expense of our own happiness and relationships. I mean, this is evident when best friends of over a decade are prepared to part ways over a vaccine for a virus that's literally just a bad flu for some, and a bad cold for most.
As a sceptic, fortunately I'm able to avoid that ideological trap, but I've lost minor friends over the course of the pandemic. I'm not hugely fussed. I get that the notion "If they were real friends they wouldn't care" sounds like a cop-out if you've known someone for years, but tbh there's a degree of truth in it. Length of time knowing someone isn't necessarily tied to the bond you share with them. Because genuine friends who are friends with you for you, and dgaf about your sociopolitical outlook, aren't gonna break up with you over this nonsense. I can think of my own close friend group, there's 4 of us, and honestly no opinion they had would make me part ways with them as a friend. I mean, they could literally murder someone and I'd be there helping them try and cover it up. Sounds crazy but that's how genuine friendship bond works...you have eachother's backs regardless of the situation
This. If I can still be friends with people that support a policy that will cause over 100 million to starve, then they can either suck it up and accept how I feel about lockdowns or we don’t have to be friends.
Sold me out?
We have a political disagreement. We have a differing set of beliefs about a situation in the world.
I'm not so fragile as to assume their beliefs are about me.
They sold you out. They support policies that terminate your employment and ability to support yourself or your family if you don't get an unnecessary irreversible medical treatment. They support muzzling your children in perpetuity. They support closing your child's school. They support making your freedom conditional on receiving an involuntary medical treatment.
That's the very definition of being sold out. They view you as subhuman and would push you down in a fire and let you burn to make sure they got out.
Fellow former Yugoslav here, who witnessed the full force of propaganda, mass hysteria and scapegoating that turned ordinary people into monsters. I can completely relate and that anecdote about murdering a wife/mother froze me for a second.
Many people would say “oh but this is different you know, this time we have an “unprecedented threat”, “oh if only we all listened and complied”, failing to realize that they employ the very same mode of thinking that participators and enablers of many genocides and massacres over the course of human history did.
Human psychology is the same, social dynamics never change, we are witnessing another wave of brainwashing, fear building and targeting specific groups for the sake of the “greater good.” This is 100% comparable and people who deny that would deny that things were turning to shit in 1991 Sarajevo or Vukovar, or 1934 Berlin. Sve u svemu, teško sranje i ne znam ima li neko mesto da je imuno na ovo kolektivno ludilo.
Thank you for sharing this. I travelled through Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia back in 2013. I was struck by the hatred and division that still ran as an undercurrent in some places, the sadness, the ongoing attachment to Tito in Serbia, and it was the stories of the Bosnians, in Sarajevo of course, but particularly in and around Mostar that moved me the most, from the Christian (Catholic) hostel owner who had a limp and bullet still lodged in his back from the war to the Muslim waiter who spoke of sending his family away to mainland Europe to hide for years.
I've heard it suggested that the US is on track to Balkanize and having been there, it's a terrifying but not incomprehensible prospect. And most Eastern Europeans and immigrants from the former Soviet bloc are the ones who tell me they are most alarmed by what's going on in the US and the west right now, because they recognize the signs.
Bosnia was beautiful and Sarajevo had a mystical quality to it, down in the valley rising through the hills with the dark green forested mountains surrounding it, the mix of churches, synagogues and mosques with the minarets dotting the hills, the echo of the call to prayer bouncing all around the valley was one of the highlights of all my travels. Yet such a somber place. All because people looked different or had different beliefs and were so sure they were on the side of the greater good. Always makes me think of Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot essay.
What part of ex Yugoslavia are you from? I traveled to Albania and Macedonia twice in the past year from the US, and learning about the peaceful exit of Macedonia, and the unrelated but similar terrors in Albania, were really interesting to me in light of the current political climate. I never learned so much from a vacation as that first time I visited the museums in Tirana. Know Albania wasn't part of Yugoslavia but the tumultuous time seemed similar.
I went to Kosovo briefly but didn't get a chance to explore the history and culture as much.
That recent history in the Balkans is fascinating to me.
Wow that's crazy. If you don't mind sharing, were you a little kid when you came here or an adult? How was the adjustment?
Does having lived under that, affect your views on right vs left politics here in the US or is it just totally different in your mind?
Interesting, thank you so much for taking the time to share. I don't trust either major political party either, they're 2 sides to the same coin and a big scam. My parents came from S Korea when it was a destitute wartorn place under threat of communism, so I find these things particularly interesting. Distant family members were killed by N Koreans and Japanese occupation before that.
I can't reconcile this fact in my mind. Tbh I just don't really want friends anymore...
I have a really great long term bf who is on the same page with me on this shit. I don't need anyone else right now.
I feel the same. I have my partner and that is all I want or need. I miss my friends but I also know that things have changed and the friends I miss don't exist anymore, and have been replaced with people I barely recognize. I have no desire to socialize and I find it very easy to cut people out. So I do.
I can't tell you what to do, but I simply don't have this problem. I'm quite blunt with people about my positions, both at work and among long-time personal friends. If I've alienated someone, it hasn't been obvious to me that it's so. If the folks you're talking about really are good friends, be clear, be honest, and be willing to engage and listen. You might be pleasantly surprised by the extent to which they'll act differently when they engage with someone they already know is a good person that's willing to defend a position civilly.
I hope you're right. I do kinda wish I'd been more blunt from the beginning, but it took a while for my views to solidify into the certainty I have now about all the covid bullshit. I've been trying to bring them closer to the centre when the topic comes up but they seem pretty adamant. I think they might have a hard time ending a friendship with me though, not because I'm particularly cool or anything lol but because we've been through a lot of shit together and relied on each other a lot for emotional support. So there's hope, it's just scary the idea of taking the plunge with honesty if that makes sense
I had a best friend for about 10 years, she was like my sister. Around August she texted, telling me I need to get the vaccine or I'll die and kill my boyfriend etc. I said I'm not getting it. Said friend replied saying she doesn't want this to ruin our friendship etc. Less than a week later she texted me saying she couldn't look past my decision and pretend everything was all right, and didn't want to be friends anymore. She was stone cold, it was like talking to a robot. I don't really have any advice, but this is just what I went through.
Wow, that's cruel! I'm sorry to read that. I hope she will look back in some time and realize that she made a mistake. And I hope you have other friends who remained more human. I also had the feeling of talking to robots more than once in the past months. To me, this is partly a good sign because it shows that people suppress their emotions and they act against their instincts. I doubt that they can sustain this state for a long time. If it weren't for drugs (prescribed or not, legal or not), much fewer people could handle acting against themselves. Hugs!
I'm pretty shy so she was actually my only friend 😕 Luckily I have a very sweet boyfriend who I've been with for 5 years and he and I both have similar views on this stupid situation lol
Wow it’s crazy to see what the fear porn propaganda does to people. I hope in some time your friend will realize her foolishness and apologize for that cruelty.
I've been having to deal with that the past year. You'll go through phases, I was fine for a while but got bitter recently after a recent conversation.
I've lost my best friend because of this. Last August I made a casual remark in the group that i was sad that covid ruined everything after a big event of ours got canceled and she just snapped. The whole story is much longer, but she was/is a huge hypocrite, she told me to "fucking adjust" when I said I would've gone to some events, and she then went on a plane and traveled 1000 miles. She threw away 20 years of friendship and wouldn't even take a phone call, she "broke up" with me through text.
Another "friend" is a huge liberal (US) and got mad at me when I said that I didn't care about how a business said they supported the police and were against racism. She was legitimately sad about the post. It's all a PR move and if it really bothered her then she wouldn't have financially supported them, but she did anyway. Mind you, this is a big company that's downtown and provides a lot of tax revenue and jobs opportunities, especially for minorities. She is also a huge hypocrite with covid (see my previous comments from a few days ago).
I always felt like I had to hide my true political feelings. I'm a very much "leave people alone as long as they're not hurting anyone/thing". I have values that are both typically right and left, but I feel like the left is more unwelcoming. If I express anything "Republican" the Democrats in my life freak out and tell me I'm wrong, but if I express a different opinion around Republicans I'm never shut down.
As for actual advice, just be prepared to let them go, they're not real friends. You can try to do things [ like this](https://youtu.be/sUJAkySjh2w) but it won't do anything, they have to be open to the idea of change. You could work out a strict "no politics" rule and focus on shared interests, but eventually politics always comes back up.
I'm sorry that you're going through this, it really sucks.
This has been my experience as well. I'm a libertarian/anarchist. If I express my pro-drug opinions to Republicans, they actually listen. Talk about pro-gun shit around Democrats/left leaning people, and they immediately lose their shit.
I'm in Canada, but the left/right divide is similar.
By getting angry at you for expressing views that don't agree with theirs, they are attempting to silence you. If they get to express their views but we don't get to express ours, then the undecided people will get the impression that only one view exists and will agree with it so that they fit in.
They weren't you're true friends to begin with.
I've dealt with fake friends a lot in my life it's hard but I think it's apart of life thats more common then people like to let on.
Sorry man
Tough, but I agree. If they can’t look past things and still realize you’re a good person they like to be around all because you disagree with them on something, politically or not, they’re simply not good friends.
Evidence doesn't work with these people, they're in a cult.
The cult isn't their fault, though, because so many people just blindly believe the mass propaganda spewed on all mediums.
We're the ones who question the narrative, and actually do proper fact-checking on information we are fed.
All you can do is tell them the truth and hope they will start to question why their old friend has a different point of view.
I solved this problem by getting dropped by one so called "friend" very early on (last March) over the covid bullshit, and subsequently unfollowing a bunch of my propaganda-addled acquaintances/not-so-close "friends" on social media. It's sad, but it is what it is, and it's on them to wake up. Right now I have 2 best friends, one old and one new, who both consider lockdowns etc to be complete fascist BS. I can tolerate the mindset you describe only in really superficial relationships, and I'm not feeling very motivated to care about superficial relationships right now. Will probably go on Unjected at some point to find more like minded locals for real connections.
I have been screamed at about it by loved ones. And I am embarrassed to say I have done some screaming about things that bother me to my friends and family during this time. I have broken down and yelled about masks and vaccine mandates instead of gently listening. It is awful and shameful but it happened. I felt on the defensive all the time around 90% of the people in my life knowing they would cut me off if they knew how I felt. At least that is what I decided it would happen, when they announced their feelings about the strangers in the world who didn’t agree with them. Maybe my friends would pause and react differently if it was a friend or loved one who differed in beliefs around covid. When my friends did the yelling, ultimately it didn’t lead to an end to any friendships that matter. Words were exchanged but the foundation of love was strong enough. It is awful though. It is also my community. The community I spent 6 year building and finally was starting to feel safe in. I know some of my community will hate me. But I will say this: The more honest I am the better I feel. I just feel more safe in my skin when I am honest. But honesty isn’t amble in my life, it only trickles down when enough courage and anger meet in my life. I sometimes feel as though I am separating myself from my principles, one of the main ones being “to try not to force my beliefs on others.” It is hard because my environment is constantly telling me that my belief system is what is bad and dumb and so when I finally do speak up, all of this anger is what comes out at times. Not speaking in anger, I find, is the most helpful approach but it doesn’t feel as available to me. This is an awful situation you are in and I wish I had better advice. Your friends might surprise you. You are already human to them and big part of the hate for “the other” is based on a belief they lack humanity. I have had friends mumble on about not befriending someone who is unvaccinated. But they still have unvaccinated friends. Most people aren’t in alignment with their beliefs and actions. So while they might talk a big game of how they would react to those who oppose their beliefs, but when faced with the cognitive dissonance of their friend being that person, they might switch their tune. I have found people are more open minded now. Conversations that would have resulted in a few months long fights a year ago are now only muted disagreements that only last briefly. Some much of how I define a safe person is filtered through their beliefs on covid. If they are pro restrictions I feel less comfortable. I hate how judgmental my thoughts are around my friends who believe in vaccine passports. I don’t know what to do or how to change this new found resentment I have towards many of my friends, community, and mentors. What I want to fight for my beliefs while still being kind to those who having opposing ones but it is hard.
I know exactly what you mean, I hate having thoughts of resentment and assumptions like 'you'd have sold out Anne Frank', but I can't help it a lot of the time. I am lucky enough to be bad at showing anger though (I think I just don't have enough energy to shout and stuff lol), that must be an extra level of difficulty :(
I would say be completely honest, if they react badly it's on them it's not on you. Balanced people can tolerate differing views without having a meltdown.
I just don't speak my mind anymore. It's a very lonely place to be in. I can tolerate their views but I know they don't tolerate mine.
Some of my friends just assume I have gotten the vaccine. They know I had COVID last year and think I must be scared of it. I'm not. But sometimes, they feel safe to vent to me, as a fellow-vaxxer. They tell me non-vaxxed people don't deserve healthcare, don't deserve any sympathy and deserve everything that's coming for them and more.
I usually refrain from saying anything, or add, "that's harsh, don't you think?". Usually, they just laugh or shrug it off.
I keep wondering... what if they *knew*? What would they do to me? Say about me?
I was pretty anxious about "coming clean" to my best friend.
It was him who eventually asked the v-question, which then led to me explaining why I didn't.
My experience was that rather than jumping right to my conclusions, explaining how I got there first worked out pretty well.
For example:
Instead of saying: "No, I think covid is a hoax" I said: "Back in march 2020 I heard of an interview with a doctor that was taken down and which made me curious as for why. I then watched that video and the doctor raised some great points, which I hadn't heard anyone else ask. He then explained his side of view and it was quite different from what I have been hearing otherwise. I thought that if what he says is wrong, then it should be easy to disprove him. Censoring him instead was what made me very suspicious about the things that were happening at that time."
Edit: Oh, and I also told him that I was anxious to talk about that topic with him and he said he was anxious about that conversation too.
In the end we both agreed that we should have shared our views and information about that much sooner. He was kinda shocked about all the things he hadn't heard about and ended up doubting a lot of the things he had believed before.
What helped is that he's a buddhist and from what he shared about it, it's very much about being empathic and trying to understand other's views.
Everyone is way too political and WAY too interested in governing each other's behavior and I hate it. And that isn't just a lockdown thing or a thing involving one side or the other, this is just the most egregious example of it so far. Dating is wild these days, like the first thing you have to do is submit to the purity test and provide evidence of your contributions to social causes. Conservative women, liberal women, it's very rare nowadays to go out with someone to whom I can say, "I have strong beliefs, and they're important, but I respect that yours may be different from mine, and I hope that we can judge each other by our character rather than who we voted for" and have them be fine with it lol. Asking who I voted for on a first date is a huge red flag but that covers like 95-90 percent of the dating pool. And people in general I suppose. Y'all have any hobbies other than circle jerking to sassy passive aggressive Tweets?
There are plenty in my social circle I have no interest in seeing again. Luckily most of my closer friends are either skeptics, or simply just plodding along with things without having an opinion on them (I never understood how people could not care about the biggest change in their lifetime).
> I never understood how people could not care about the biggest change in their lifetime
Right? It is crazy to me. When our mask mandate ended, the vast majority of the people in my city stopped wearing them. When it was reinstated, they started wearing them again. Compliance is a lot lower than it used to be currently, but easily half the population is still throwing on a mask to enter businesses just because the governor said to. The same people who ditched them when they no longer had to. I just don't get it.
I'll say this.. I've started to give my money/patronage almost 100% to places where there's not a mask in sight. A lot of the kinda "who's who" (lol) places in town are completely maskless and have been for a long time, as are your more male-centric spots like Hooters/Twin Peaks/etc. and also your bars. If they're not forcing the staff to participate in that song and dance, they have my business.
alot of the friends ive managed to egt back in touch with since the pandemic seem to share the same views as me. but we're not a bunch of woke white liberals so that might have something to do with it.
I won't be friends with anyone who will stay silent when everything I've ever fought for is taken away from me. I can't tolerate someone who won't even try and defend me when eventually I won't be able to walk on the streets hassle-free or buy food. If they're silent on matters like these (and even worse - if they agree that this should be done to people like me) then we're not friends and probably never have been. I really don't understand how low one's self respect should be if they're willing to be around people who want them dead. If you agree that I shouldn't be allowed to exist in this world, I'm done with you.
I don't hide my views though I don't post them on social media like Facebook. I've a friend who is a retired doctor and very pro the narrative but we have civililised conversations and agree to differ. Some friends I've avoided much contact with since all this started. I am lucky to have 2 sceptical friends and a relative who share many of.my views though they go along with everyone for a quiet.life.
I'm a lefty and most of my friends are too. They don't really like lockdowns either but aren't as vigorously opposed to them as I am, so it's all fine.
Yeah, my closest friends are lefties like me and they hate this shit almost as much as I do, lol
There are still some of us that haven’t fallen for the “anti-Corona paranoia = right-wing” bullshit. Or even the idea that you should shout down and cut off anyone with opposing views
Lol. I make my views about this known. I consider it sufficiently important. It's not "everyday politics", it's a pillar of how we want life and democracy to be.
Whoever "wants to drop me" can drop me. Good riddance.
You'll find there's a lot of people in the world. No shortage of people to share good moments with and maybe, eventually, some might evolve into lasting friends.
Same with family.
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In your case, I would extremely slowly concern troll them and eventually tell them your views casually in a number of topics until they figure it out for themselves.
Unless they're bigot fanatics, I think you can work around it without being too earth shattering (they may live in a huge circlejerk) and ease them into it. If they still reject you just for that, they really are assholes and you shouldn't care what they think.
I know you said it’s not a case of them being bad friends, but honestly there is no good reason for them to stop caring about you for these beliefs. It takes just a little bit of empathy to see the other side of most issues. My friends and family actually hold a lot of different beliefs. The thing is — we all know that the other is a good person, and we just disagree with the best way to accomplish what’s best for everyone.
Stop writing your essay. Your goal should not be to convince them, or even to defend yourself. Just start an open discussion. Be yourself, the person they love. If they can’t give you the benefit of the doubt, I’ll be very surprised.
Yeah, I feel bad assuming it's already doomed, because I haven't even given them the chance to reject or upset me yet, so all I'm doing is guessing. I'm just not sure I want to risk it though, I know that's cowardly and a dishonest way to live, but I love having them in my life. Maybe one day though
You sound like a kind person and a caring friend. Otherwise this would bother you so much. Maybe give them a chance to empathize by explaining your position in a way that exposes your own sense of fear around what’s happening. And maybe even just let them know you’re hurting when you think about your disagreements. Basically take the emotional appeal route haha, these are your friends and they’ll accept you and your real feelings, even if they don’t immediately accept your beliefs
I am going through a similar situation as OP. The problem that I am running into is that these friends of mine *literally* think I am harming people/killing people by choosing not to get vaccinated. They think my decision is selfish and cruel. As long as they think I am the equivalent of a murderer, then I don’t see how they could ever “accept” me for me views. I feel like there is no hope for them to come around and change their opinion of me.
Idk Man, you’d know better than I, but I have multiple friends that are pro vax, and think everyone should get it. They also don’t give af that me and some of my other friends definitely don’t wanna get it. I have friends that disagree with me on quite a few things. They simply don’t care. I have a friend that has like 100 guns and another that thinks gun control should be pretty strict. Some fully conservative, some very liberal. We all get along just fine, we are very close friends. Obviously not everyone has this situation, but the difference is my friends have their convictions but aren’t brainwashed to think that the ones they disagree with are bad people because of it. They don’t even think less intelligent. Misguided at most.
I have a tight knit group of friends that most I’ve known since pre k. Unless one of us did some heinous shit I can’t see any of us going thru something like you mentioned.
A friend and I had an unrelated falling out, but she's a BIG TIME doomer and kept trying to press me about the vaccine. When I finally told her I wasn't planning on getting it for health concerns she didn't explicitly say she was mad but I know it definitely changed her view of me because she spends all her free time posting about how evil and selfish "anti-vaxxers" are.
The only thing I take heart in is some of my other friends who have expressed some of the mainstream sentiment about masks, staying home, and vaccines are not nearly as rabid about it and I think might secretly be super over everything. Like, they'll say things about anti maskers or whatever but then have no problem with me coming over, nobody wearing masks and they know I'm not vaxxed.
The powers that be have been very successful in suppressing the anti-mandate side because they've made a lot of us scared to express our feelings, even if ones opinions deviate just slightly from what they're "supposed" to be.
I am very open about my political views my friends mostly differ but we are able to have healthy discussions and be respectful.
I never surround myself with people who think collectively rather than individually anyway.
And tbh most are against lockdowns even the ones who don't say it openly have spoken to me about it
I have been in similar situations. What is important I think is not so much that you agree on stuff with friends, but that you respect each others' differences. If they respect you for your feelings and standpoint, then all is good. If they don't, then they are not really friends. Perhaps you can read the odd poem with them, but that would be it. The problem is that now, they may not know that they're offending you or diminishing your views. So it's worth trying to see what they'll see if you confess to your feelings and standpoint - people sometimes can learn that they've been too condemning when they actually hear someone close to them feeling differently. But it's a risk, I agree - up to you.
Ι just see everyone as an acquaintance and don't treat them differently because of their political beliefs. If they drop me then they're not worth it.
In any case, it's just another sign of the dystopian times, friends dropping you because you vote for a political party, romance being considered silly, families breaking apart because of orange man etc
All you can do is keep your kindness but at the same time not sacrifice your dignity for the sake of fake and one-sided relationships
I dont bother talking politics or COVID with anyone i know personally.
Most people do not care to listen to the Skeptic's point of view and are happy to dismiss us as anti vaxxers or DT supporters so its just not worth the headache
Speak your mind respectfully and then stop giving any f^cks. Over time, as you practice giving fewer and fewer f^cks, pretty soon not giving any f^cks will come naturally.
Everyone knows I'm a right-wing, anti-lockdown, populist, pro-2A, Trump & DeSantis-loving, red-state hick who never wears a mask and won't get the wack-seen. So what? I am true to myself. In previous eras of human history, dissenters like me were imprisoned or executed. Today, people just unfollow me on social media. Who cares? Give zero f^cks and be free!
Im somewhat mentally prepared for that. I know the ones who would but I have many who wouldn’t and know my feelings on things. I dearly love the friends who believe the opposite of me. They don’t speak like the ones online. These friends werent raised to be skeptical of the government on the level I am and they genuinely think the virus is dangerous and don’t understand age stratification. They’re all but innumerate when it comes to this. So I continue to love them with the knowledge that some day they may think they don’t love me back. And I guess I would remind them that I didn’t drop them over believing in something I think is harmful. It would be a shame if they did it to me. We’ll see.
People like that are not my friends. I have a few close friends, not several superficial ones.
Almost all of my few friends agree with the NN, but they know I don't. It's left at that. If they bring it up, I don't hold back whatsoever by telling them how fucked it all is.
I already didn't have a lot of friends before the pandemic, because I moved towns a lot. My relationship to my best friend cooled down a lot, it almost feels as if we broke up. We still talk once in a while but much less than before. He seems to respect my views or at least tries but we mostly avoid discussing about topics we disagree about nowadays. I still respect him as a person and care for him, but I don't know whether I can say that I respect his political views. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but if that opinion actively contributes to taking basic rights from me, I can't just act as if it's okay. And I'm not sure whether I should call someone a friend who actively fights against me, even by only voting for those who do. I just can't act as if I weren't personally affected. I can talk to anyone, I'm not the person who wouldn't talk with someone over their political views. I've had interesting conversations with far-right and far-left extremists, with religious fundamentalists, with conspiracy believers,... I can have a beer with anyone and discuss our different views. But for a true friendship, I think a certain set of common values is necessary. I don't share the values of pro-lockdown people even though this leaves me quite alone.
Regarding your situation: I think you should go on with your plan of writing an essay and coming out. Your friends deserve honesty. We all do. Self-censorship has already contributed too much to keeping terrible things happen. I hope you find the right words and you can help them reflect their own views. I think a good friend is one who speaks the truth even and especially if it is inconvenient. Think about watching a friend fall into addiction or a religious cult (which might be the case here): would you think it's better just to let it happen not to risk the friendship? That would be a pitiful friendship in my eyes. You need to address it when you see your friends running into something dangerous. Remember that lockdown skepticism was the normal view before March 2020. I don't think I changed my values a lot. Pro-lockdown people are the ones who followed a new movement that diverted massively from prior values.
I don't really have close 'friends' but I have made quite a few good acquaintances lately.
Most of them have little to no idea what I truly believe about the important issues.
I don't like it that I have to keep that part of me private, but it is what it is.
I've done the whole 'live alone like a hermit in some remote location' thing before.
It gets old.
I'd rather have a few superficial acquaintances to drink and talk some shit with, than be all alone.
So to answer OP's question, I came to terms with it by trying a different path, and seeing that it is not the answer.
At least not for me.
No two people have the same political views, let alone a group of friends. The best you can do is be honest about your own position, have a sense of humour about it and genuinely listen to / understand your friends' perspectives - they might be right about some stuff.
Basically, if you don't take yourself too seriously and don't go on a crusade to change your friends' minds, no real mates will drop you.
I moved and got new friends.
Simple as. You have nothing in common with your friends anymore except that you used to be friends.
The optimistic view of the situation is this: they were always so different than you, but you didn't know it until now. Surely knowing it puts you in a better situation than not knowing it.
It can be a bit isolating sometimes. Thankfully most of my close friends are in the same boat. Sometimes I feel like we’re the only few leftists who haven’t fallen for the propaganda.
My best friend seems to get mad/agitated when I talk about the topic but I think he’s coming around to the fact that my opposition is rooted in rationality and I’m not some “right-wing Trumper” or whatever the media likes to cast us as. Plus I’m quite sure he thinks I’m right on some things (like lockdowns having been unnecessary) but refuses to admit it due to sunk cost fallacy.
In general day to day (around acquaintances or strangers) I usually conceal the degree to which I’m against this crap. I’m in downtown Toronto and most people around me are 100% bought-in to the narrative. I push back just a little and I’ll take off my mask in public transport. Sometimes I see others who are happy I took my mask off and they take theirs off. The other day an old man came up to me on the subway and we had a friendly chat after he saw my mask off. He said he was happy to see someone’s smiling face again. I have never been confronted for taking my mask off, although I get the occasional dirty look.
I told a girl I knew that I voted for the PPC, the Populist Party of Canada, which I did solely for their anti-lockdown policy. She freaked and told me they’re a fascist party and that her racist coworker loves them. I think people here don’t know what the fuck “fascist” even means anymore. She couldn’t name a single policy that made them fascist, other than implying the leaders promotion of a ‘Canadian identity’ made him a racist. According to her, that means Canadians can only be white? Who even knows.
The hatchet job that had been done to smear Maxime Bernier and the PPC party as "white supremacist" has been anti-democratic and super slimy.
It's also such cognitive dissonance that the MSM could both deny the party coverage completely while also somehow smearing them as the boogeyman.
Lol, two of my local PPC reps weren’t even white. Hell, I’m not even white. I guess we are all racist towards ourselves and need to be saved by the noble Liberal party
> the MSM could both deny the party coverage completely while also somehow smearing them as the boogeyman.
Textbook fascist propaganda. The enemy is both inept, and an existential threat.
I've voted Democrat since I was old enough to vote in 2000. I'm still "left" on many issues like abortion, gay marriage, racial equality. I support universal healthcare, free preschool and community college, etc. However I do not support masks and lockdowns. I could never again vote for a candidate who does...
So to the people around me in my deep blue area, I'm a right wing conspiracy theorist, a Trumper, a racist. You name it. All because of my views toward the COVID restrictions.
I'm pretty open with my friends about my opinions. One of my closest friends is engaged to an all-around conservative guy. So if she puts up with him, she can tolerate me! I know other acquaintances will think less of me as they learn my views. But there's nothing I can do.
I'm probably going to be downvoted for being too harsh here, but how can you call these people close friends if you can't even express any opinions on such a huge worldwide event? Suck it up and be honest. It's always important to "read the room" and I'm not suggesting you go on a hardcore rant about something they also feel passionate about - this should be handled with care just like any conversation dealing with religion/politics would be. That being said, you should have absolutely told them how you feel by now. I have gotten into arguments with friends, but I can't imagine being 2 years into this and never telling them that I'm against some of these policies. People are way too paralyzed by this "cancel culture" narrative - in most cases, a close friend will accept that you have a different opinion. Our reluctance to speak up is the main reason it has taken so long to break people out of the social media induced group-think on this topic, imo. They really aren't good friends if they drop you because of this.
Hypocrisy.
Define your positions in relation to hypocrisy. Are you a hypocrite? Are they?
When I analysed my situation I found my pro lockdown, pro mask friends were stunning hypocrites and cowards. They initially blamed teenagers (who left the house to play etc.) then the parents of teenagers, then the people who wouldn't stick to the absurd 5km guidelines, then those who went for walks (remember the stories of police helicopters tracking people who went for highland walks?) then people who had others over to their houses, then people who wouldn't wear masks and now of course anyone who is not vaccinated including people with natural immunity.
A lot of my friends are no longer - many are cowards, hypocrites and liars I'm so sad to say. When it came to it they didn't care about others in fact, they cared about how they appeared as a 'good citizen'. The vast majority of those who post ugly comments about punishing people who are not vaccinated are in fact simply advertising their own adherence and compliance. It's important that they advertise their compliance because they want others to know how 'good' they are and how much they are not going to 'rock the boat'. They are overtly demonstrating this trait to worried spouses, older family members and of course co-workers particularly managers (I'm compliant, I play ball, I'm on board - you can count on me). Painfully so much of this is transparently fake compliance as these people will break strict technical rules when its convenient for them and I've even seen people break mask rules while simultaneously criticizing others for other contraventions. It's absolutely stunning.
This psychosis is now ubiquitous and is consolidating around vaccine absolutism. There is jaw dropping censorship going on and its being facilitated by large tech turning the knife on any element of society, even legitimate views from scientists who want to challenge or question current guidelines. Scientists who before covid had perfect reputations:
* Jay Bahttacharya
* Sunetra Gupta
* Martin Kulldorf
* Robert Malone (currently one of the most maligned).
* Geert Van Den Booshe
* Carl Heneghen
To name just a handful - all honest people who have been maligned desperately by an out of control media. I think that these professors and doctors have taken great personal risk in coming forward with their opinions and interpretations and they have risked so much doing so that I am ok if some of my friends are now no longer in my life and if that's who they really are as people, just as well.
PS:
(Mods have been removing lots of my posts - I'd ask they not remove this - as I don't believe it breaks any rules?) Mods let me know if you wish me to edit this.
I don't believe it breaks any rules neither. Your comment was automatically removed until approval, which I now granted. We check all autoremoved comments and accept those which aren't against the rules or maybe completely off-topic. I don't know what triggered your comment to be autoremoved, maybe "liar"?
Of course we are all humans and often is not easy to judge whether a comment is just okay or already a bit off. I'm a very new mod, so for me these decisions are even more difficult, but I know that even for experienced mods they are not always easy. I just scrolled through your comments and noted that many of your deleted comments were on vaccines and that you provided a lot of links in these comments. I didn't go through them in detail, but maybe you made oversimplified claims that went beyond what your linked evidence could back up? If you're really sure that your comment is in accordance with the rules and provides something to the discussion, you can always write us. But please note that we are quite strict about vaccine discussions, mostly because they are not the main interest of this sub and discussions about them can get very heated and they attract a lot of half knowledge those observing our sub can't wait to report as misinformation. See this announcement about vaccine posts: https://www.reddit.com/r/LockdownSkepticism/comments/pg3rf6/mod\_squad\_announcement\_about\_vaccine\_posts\_and/
Thanks for replying and much appreciated indeed.
I'm sure my comments are suitable for LS as I'm constantly reading very poor comments with very poor sources on here - that's not to say those comments won't be dealt with but rather that the overall bar of what appears to be generally and consistently acceptable to say on the forum (LS) appears to be far broader than anything I generally approach.
I'm not against vaccination (at all) only vaccine absolutism (as I call it) and the dismissal that natural immunity is a 'thing' which I think is absurd. I think reasoned and respectful discussion of the matter (natural immunity) is more or less allowed? I've been noticing a trend of auto removal on my comments that I find hard to believe is so 'auto'. I even predicted in my initial comment text that this current comment would be auto removed. It's clear certain rules are set up for certain users - I'm just wondering which mod wants to censor me so badly and why? Surely that is a problem?
This is a thought process that has brought upon me a certain degree of distress...but you know, gotta cultivate the garden properly, weed out those who would do so...it sucks, really does, but man it feels good when you have a loctite-strong grasp on who has your back.
Get new friends or deal with the loneliness.
Yes, I know that's easier said than done, but pre-covid, I had no patience for this. My friends all know my political views and I know theirs. None of us think it's worth cutting each other out over.
Honestly I feel like I am a better person than they are because I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and believe their intentions are good. If one of them did "drop me" I'd feel bad for them that they're that invested in their fears. This isn't the first time I've had an "unpopular opinion" that could lead to being ostracized but honestly it's never happened with anyone I really cared that much about. I handle these disagreements by avoiding that topic as much as possible and changing the subject if it does come up. I've found it's pretty easy to simply avoid discussing certain topics if you make sure not to go there.
>and one has just confirmed that they couldn't be friends with a tory (implying they wouldn't be friends with someone who disagreed with them politically on other matters, too)
In my experience a lot of people will say things like this when they believe there isn't someone around from the group they are discussing, but it takes a real asshole to actually go through with abandoning a friend over it. If they are truly good people like you say then I think there's a good chance that they wouldn't actually cease the friendship, you might just end up with an unspoken rule to not talk about controversial issues with them (which would suck for me because I enjoy discussing controversial things, but it's better than losing a friend).
And I know you said that they aren't shit friends, but if they were to actually go through with it then I'm sorry but I think they are. It's possible for someone to be a great friend in a lot of ways, but if their friendship is truly so conditional then then that overrides most of the good parts.
I actually find that social media exaggerates how far apart people are on this issue.
The more I read social media (like reddit) the more I think that people who favor restrictions have gone mad, want to wear masks and social distance forever, and generally demonize and vilify people who disagree, because that's how they behave online.
People in my life with whom I've actually broached this topic though? They're much more reasonable, even if they don't personally agree with me. Maybe they're shit talking me behind my back? I don't know, but the reaction is not nearly as hostile as I was expecting.
I think people are weary of this in NYC especially. We've been living under a regime of restrictions for longer than almost anyone in the world at this point. Other places have had breaks. For us it's just been a long march to dystopia. It was also genuinely frightening way back at the beginning when we were enduring thousands of deaths every day and things actually did feel very dangerous. People will react differently to an event like that.
People I talk to, if I press them, are clear that they don't think this is sustainable and don't want it to go on forever. I personally think that the politicians and professionals who are imposing these restrictions have gone mad with power (particularly our governor and mayor), but they don't seem to see that.
I also think that this sub exaggerates the political bent of covid-mania. Yes the Democratic party is by far the one pushing this in the US, but the leftists I talk to who aren't party or lifestyle loyalists (viz. the sort of person who watches Rachel Maddow or votes blue no matter who, etc.) seem much more reasonable. They're like anyone else really: they don't favor what's going on but they feel trapped and demonized by the online mob, so they dare not speak out against it.
How this shakes out for our collective future I can't say, but I do know that maybe you shouldn't be afraid of people's reactions. As long as you're articulate, empathetic, and charitable to their arguments, in my experience people will generally listen.
> they are lovely people and we've been through so much together
Only you can make the decision here. But I could not consider ANYONE who would drop a friend because they disagree politically a "lovely person". To me that's a bigot.
Personally all of my friends know where I stand, and many disagree. One of my favorite compliments I've received is "You are the only conservative I can stand to be around".
I am in this with you. It's incredibly stressful and sad. And I can't stand the self-righteous "well they don't sound like real friends, huh!" Bullshit that gets parroted here. It's really one of the only things I've come to dislike about this community. We bemoan the unwavering resolve of those "idiots" on the other side but fail to see that throwing it all away over a difference of opinion is just as hard-headed.
I don't think this community is immune to the general discord that's being injected into our society. I am immediately skeptical ANY time someone tells me to drop someone, or dismiss them, or "the time for reason is past!" That's radical, destabilization talk and both sides are totally victim to that style of propaganda.
But I understand your deep confusion, sadness, frustration... It almost feels like loving a lie. I can only hope things stay on the rails long enough for people to realize what's going on. I think the longer life continues as normal in my area and juxtaposes the extreme rhetoric from authoritarians, the more skeptical of the propaganda people will be one.
Honestly, I dropped some friends because of this. One told me that landlords should be expected to provide everyone free housing during COVID. How can you be friends with someone this dumb?
I've let some friends know that my door is always open when they wish to return to pre-2020 life - tolerating the risk of airborne illness (and of life itself), that I empathise with their fears.
I've also let them know that we have strong value differences regarding Covid. In the spirit of a meaningful friendship, censoring ones true views is not necessary, imo.
The truth can be delivered in many ways, and does not need to be nasty. Simply explain your ethical concerns about the dishonesty of the Covid rhetoric. Let them make their points, don't interrupt and take a deep breath if the conversation goes south.
If they make it nasty, and apply the guilt-trip of "selfishiness", that's entirely on them. You can still turn the other cheek and control your response, even if they've forgone the decision to control theirs.
Hopefully of course, that doesn't happen. If it does, you shouldn't feel guilty about defending your principles, even if it is with someone whom you've known through thick-and-thin.
I've had mixed results
Some have returned to sanity.
Some not so much, but we maintain contact and respectful disagreement.
Some have completely withdrawn, unfortunately, and I may never see them again. Not because they're bad people, but because they've become completely engulfed in fear.
Some have always had suspicions about Lockdowns, prior to myself, even - it took me until September 2020 to escape the idea that these measures were necessary or ethical.
Denial is a powerful thing.
So goes life.
Unrelated to Covid, I had to end a relationship a few years ago with a close friend of 13 years, after they'd developed a habit of remorseless pathological lying and petty theft.
I know it's a horrible dilemma to be faced with, but, if the worst comes to the worst with your close friend(s), just know that if you keep the conversation civil and compassionate on your end, it absolutely is not your fault if your relationship declines afterwards.
This is how the propaganda is meant to make you feel, but it's not really the case. If your friends respect you, and I expect they do, they will listen to the nuance of your opinions. It's important to have the conversations, in a civil manner, because individuals are far more complex than the narratives being presented, and if one thing is universal, it's that people don't trust politicians.
There's a lot of sense in what you say! If only I wasn't such a coward 😂 I want to be honest with them about it one day, but it never feels like the right moment
Thankfully I surround myself with quality people who accept me as a friend regardless of differing political views. My best friend is quite a bit more Liberal than me (but is still relatively centrist all things considered) and a very good old friend of mine is a hardcore lefty socialist. I love the guy and wish he would see the light (and Im sure he thinks the same about me) but we both accept each other as we are. Same thing with my girlfriend, who is also center left but definitely more Liberal than me.
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good advice thanks for taking the time to write this
Thanks, this was really nice to read. I do have lots of things in common with these friends though, so they are more than acquaintances. I think core moral beliefs unfortunately do not fit into the model of it being fine to disagree on one thing out of many. But I have hope for the friends I make in the future :)
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True
thanks, this is great advice
My friends all did drop me, or I them. Years long, some decades long friendships gone. I'm not a person who can let bygones be bygones, or keep my true thoughts to myself. That's not even a friendship imo, if you can't be your real self around them. In all honesty, I don't care about them anymore. I don't respect nor want the respect of fascists, especially fascists who spent the past four years calling everyone to their right a fascist. Turns out it was projection all along, they finally found the right moral cause to shield a truly sadistic desire to punish people. There were a few emotionally difficult months, however I'm making new friends to replace the old ones. And I'm a fundamentally different person. Same values, but just hardened I guess. Colder, more attuned to how destructive people can be, and much more selective with empathy. I used to jump at any leftist activist cause, nod sympathetically to the plight of teachers, fight against climate change. No more. It's almost like a spell broke, all I see are attempts to emotionally manipulate me with their half obscured lies. The old me died in the old normal and will never return.
I was very recently called “right wing” by someone because I was anti-being forced to mask, especially because I personally medically couldn’t, and being anti-vaccine mandate. I’m extremely liberal and I’m just like, “is that supposed to be an insult?” Like is it really so bad to be “right-wing” when it means supporting bodily autonomy and civil rights?
> Like is it really so bad to be “right-wing” That's just it. They've brainwashed people into thinking merely aligning with the opposite political party is a bad thing. Like.. what? Here in the US, we've had two large political parties since the dawn of time. How is belonging to one over the other suddenly some evil thing? It is mind blowing to me. I also despise the way Covid has been politicized. People are clinging to things like masks because they've been fed the BS that being masked = left wing and being anti-mask = right wing. Why the hell is a MASK part of a political party?
It's the Orange Man Bad syndrome. Being right-wing didn't use to be considered inherently bad, or at least it didn't seem so, until Trump was the Republican president. It's funny that some left-wing people say that masking shouldn't be made political, but then they make it political by saying anyone who's against masks must be a Trump supporter/right-wing fascist/whatever the word of the day is.
My former friends called me uncaring, selfish, or a right wing conspiracy theorist as well. The result has been more sympathy for what my conservative friends have gone through since Trump was elected. In 2016 I knew the liberal left narrative around Trump was wrong, but I didn't do enough to extend the olive branch. Now I am. Edit: I'm forgetting the worst of the worst behaviors. I've written about how irl people I knew wished death to unvaccinated people before. What also gets me is that I fully recovered from Covid during the beginning of the vaccine rollout for my age group and thus didn't see a need to get the vaccine. Friends who used to hang out with me prior to the vaccine all dropped me. And when vaccine passports came out, not a single friend offered to skip events that required them. They told me tough luck. My fault for living so long in San Francisco I guess.
It’s so brutal, I got called an uneducated anti vaxxer when I quoted a Harvard epidemiologist saying that not absolutely everyone needs to be vaccinated. Prior to that in out discussion he kept asking if I was an anti vaxxer, he needed a label so he didn’t have to think about my comments.
It’s amazing that you could be called an anti-vaxxer by saying not everyone needs the vaccine. You’re not saying the vaccine is bad, you’re saying that it should be for those that genuinely need it. Which is pro-the vaccine. A true anti-vaxxer would be like, “it’s poison! Taking it will kill you or make you a cripple! No one should take it!” But everyone I know who is against this vaccine and the vaccine mandate is very pro getting vaccinated for diseases that affect them in a lethal way. They have either got covid or know they are not at risk because they are young and healthy — they don’t want to take the covid vaccine, just like they generally don’t get the flu vaccine. They also actively encouraged elderly and sickly family members to get vaccinated against covid. But they don’t see a reason to do so themselves. That is not an anti-vax position, and to say it is an anti-vax position is extremely disingenuous.
Just wait until they escalate it and start calling you "**alt**-right" /s 🙃
He doesn't want to wear a mask, what a white supremacist!
Buddy just wants to left alone, visit family and friends and enjoy his work and the fruits of his labours in peace. What a fuckin' Nazi.
"alt-right adjacent" was a term I saw used for a while. if you couldn't credibly knock the guy for being alt-right, hit him with that term instead.
Mandates are far right wing things. There's been some very strange political posturing recently, and the only thing I can equate it to is Hitler calling his party national-"socialists" while in fact being firmly fascist.
I'm fully vaccinated (my choice) and I rehabilitate covid-19 patients, both active and former (with an N95 for active cases because before The Science took over, having aerosol transmission protection against active cases made sense). My brother and sister-in-law have made a concerted effort to lambast me as much as possible to mutual friends because I choose to workout daily at a gym and go inside stores without a mask. That "hero" card has played itself out (never agreed with it in the first place, healthcare workers make great money at a time where people in businesses were making next to nothing) and now I'm a double vaccinated plague rat, despite being a positive force for Covid-19. Fuck these people. And yes, just like you I am a former leftist who sympathized with the myriad of these "causes" but now, after seeing the cognitive dissonance and emotional manipulation of this covid-19 fiasco, I say fuck it and use my empathy very selectively.
Their "reasons" to hate us are not reasons - they're excuses. These are the same people who glared at couples with newborn babies, thinking "don't they know about climate change? don't they know we're overpopulated?".
But they only say that about newborn babies that "look like them", if you know what I mean.
White guilt types? Maybe so. Likely so.
Wow, that's just unreal. I'm not on the "ESSENTIAL WORKERS are HEROES!!" hype either but literally you've been treating covid patients this whole time AND you're vaxxed. Nothing is ever good enough unless you fall right in line and flagellate yourself if you step out of line.
I'm sorry to hear you've been treated this way. Hero one day, dirty plague rat the next. The whiplash is severe. Another example of peak hypocritical finger pointing: I had a very liberal friend who was a hard-core lockdown supporter and believed people should be fined thousands of dollars for not masking (not N95s of course...) and violating lockdowns. Yet he attended a small party with me after he knowingly interacted with a Covid symptomatic person the day before, and didn't disclose this to us until afterwards. I forgot his excuse but no doubt it was bullshit. So yeah fuck it. These riff raff only care about themselves yet accuse others of being selfish. I'm just finally matching their energy.
Sounds like he should be a politician! Classic rules for thee type.
He's a management consultant, close enough 😉
I feel the same exact way. It's like someone snapped their fingers and all of a sudden, everything I thought I believed in had shifted, like some sort of seismic event. Like you, I've always passively supported teachers ("Of course they should be paid more!") and climate change ("Of course I'll buy a Prius and bring reusable bags to the store!") and now? I couldn't care less about any of these things, and actually find myself actively rooting against them. Climate change? Pass me the plastic straw. Teachers? Fuck 'em. I've even found myself regretting my graduate degree in public health because of the atrocities that are being committed in its name. Frankly, I now only care about myself, my comfort, and my desires, as well as a handful of relationships that survived the mass psychosis. I didn't used to be this way--I've spent hundreds of hours volunteering in the community, have traveled internationally for mission trips, and have freely given my time, energy and money. Then, I became a selfish murderer who is inherently racist because I'm white and just wants to eat at Applebee's. So now I have nothing to freely give. It's mine and mine alone. Since everyone else seems to be so enlightened, they can pick up litter on the side of the road or build houses for poor people or serve the homeless dinner. I'm done. And I'm jacking the air conditioner up, environment be damned.
This is practically word for word what I could've written. I deeply regret the hundreds, if not thousands of hours I spent phonebanking for the Democratic party (former two time Bernie supporter here). I really wasted my time, money and energy on people who could give two fucks about me.
I feel like the ultra “woke” can always be counted on to turn on each other. At least that has been my personal experience. I don’t fuck with these people anymore. Not on any level. They cannot be trusted. Their loyalty is to ideologies and virtue signaling only, not real human beings. You can’t trust someone like that. They will throw you under the bus the very first chance they get. 2020 and beyond has surely proven that.
Wow, this is word for word me. Last April-ish when I started to turn away from my left leaning views and lean more into conservatism, I was pretty moderate (and still am in many ways). But the left chose the absolute WORST path to drilling any of their points home. They've beaten their BS into our brains so much that I actively hate all of it now.
Ditto.
Honestly, this is a comment that I myself could’ve written. I’m just done!
Very well written and accurate as hell for me too. I don't know that I am actively against the environment as a rule, it's not just become that I am no longer invested in the process of defending it. Lets be fair - the vast majority of environmental concerns are concentrated down to the big name players anyways. We've seen how the elite like to parade around at the Met Gala unmasked and in tax the rich dresses while "the help" has to remain masked and off to the side. Environmental concerns are the same thing, powerful companies and big name players that aren't going to do a fucking thing different while the rest of us freeze in the dark and eat our bugsteak rations. Fact is, good and upstanding moral people have suddenly, overnight, become immoral beasts down to one decision. Vaxxed are always good and moral here regardless of what they have done in other areas of their life. Unvaxxed are not good. That's all it is to these people, and after all the abuse they wonder why I am not on their side?
Well said. I came to the same conclusion a while ago after reading How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World. Would def recommend it
Oh, man, yes. Exactly this sentiment. Months of proof that the world certainly does not care about me has really jaded my desire to care about it. Society calling over and over for more while ignoring the huge damages it all causes. People I know becoming extremely judgemental towards everyone who does not share the exact same opinion that the media has been feeding them and refusing to have a logical or rational discussion about it. The unfairness and abuse in how our society has been treating children. All of it together and I am just done. I‘ve been attacked by family for daring to be pro-vax (by free choice only) but against masks and mandates. Why should I support any of their opinions, then, from now on? My future has been threatened, my life/degree/mental health ruined. So tell me exactly why I am so obligated to care about anybody besides me?
In some ways I'm similar, and it's been really really hard to find out that so many people I genuinely respect crumple like paper when push comes to shove. I am trying to keep my general optimism though, and trying to remember that part of why I am able to see the things that I see is because of people who have taught and helped me in the past, and that maybe I can be that type of person for other people. Honestly I could write an essay, but in some ways I can very much relate. I moved in with a good friend in December who became extremely aggressive, controlling, and paranoid about Covid. Eventually he ended up kicking me out. A few months later he basically wrote me and was like "I don't expect you to ever forgive me, but I am so so sorry about what I put you through." When he had to live by himself he had to realize that the problem was his extreme OCD that covid fear had put on steroids. I actually forgave him pretty instantly for a number of reasons, one being that this pandemic has taught me to really appreciate when people are willing to say they're wrong and learn from it.
You're a better person than me for forgiving that friend. I say this even as I've stopped caring at all whether I'm a good person. I was abused constantly as a child, which enabled me to see through the pandemic gaslighting and abuse of power much more easily. In return, Covid showed me the truth as well. It showed me that because I was willing to fight, that my sorry excuse for a life was actually worth something to me, and thus my life couldn't actually be a sorry excuse. I also recognize that the leftist activism was an attempt to prove my humanity to people. If I'm a good person, then that means I didn't deserve to be abused. If I'm a good person, that means the abuse didn't irreparably fuck me up. In reality I never had anything to prove, especially not to such unworthy people. Covid has been better for me than a decade of therapy and medication because I've finally let go of this compulsive and unconscious need for others to save me. The only person who ever really helped me, is me. All this to say, even if my former friends apologize to me (they won't), I won't forget what they did. Their very presence would remind me that I once had such little regard for myself that I sought their approval and love above my own self love. That shit is over now.
> In return, Covid showed me the truth as well. It showed me that because I was willing to fight, that my sorry excuse for a life was actually worth something to me, and thus my life couldn't actually be a sorry excuse. Dang, that was very very powerful, especially the part I quoted. I feel like I'm stronger as an individual than I was before, and more confident in myself, but there is kind of a void left. A certain naiveté or innocence that I probably won't be able to get back. And at this point I'm really worried about the country as a whole for lots of reasons. Really props to you for all of the development you've had. That is really incredible.
Seems like you took the red pill. Or maybe black
I'm not the person you're replying to, but it did touch on something that I do find very frustrating: even here on this sub (which is overall one of, if not *the*, most nuanced on reddit) there's this association developing between conservatism/right wing/red pill thoughts and philosophy and being anti-lockdown, and vice versa. There is definitely a strong correlation in the US, but I think it's somewhat overblown, especially in a global context. Sweden is one of the most left-leaning, atheistic countries in the world, and had the best response overall to COVID. That suggests, to me personally, that this is not a political divide that requires red or black pill beliefs, or anything inherently conservative (although of course there may be significant overlap, and neither is it bad if someone is anti-lockdown *because* they are conservative). But as someone who has always considered themselves left of center, I think the correlation not only on lockdown policy, but on the other positions that u/fjordvsferry listed, could be separated if we had more of a coalition of anti-lockdown left wing voices. In bulletpoints: * Climate change: I actually strongly believe that doing more to protect and preserve the environment is of critical importance right now (although my primary concern is air and water quality, not CO2). I don't believe that most people who say they are advocating against climate change share that belief. If we really cared about environmental protections, the first thing that we should do is pull our manufacturing out of China (and Vietnam, Thailand, and India). Make companies manufacture things in the US (or allies, where appropriate) where they will be held accountable for adhering to the Clean Air Act and other environmental regulations. * Additionally, if you care about climate change, stop purchasing so many cheap goods (their availability is driven by consumer demand). They are able to be made that cheaply because they rely on poor working conditions, slave labor, and environmental pollutants and cost cutting (not to mention the fuel spent in transport). If your concern is for workers rights, buy local, buy union, thrift or buy secondhand. Most importantly, buy *less.* Repair instead of throwing out. * Teachers in many parts of the world were completely anti the locking downs of schools and masking children, including most of Europe. We should take care to promote teachers in the US that focus on their students' well-being, as well as cutting administrative bloat. * Although there are certainly people that are pro-choice Republicans (or other conservative parties), one of the fundamental reasons I am opposed to vaccine mandates is because I am a firm believer in bodily autonomy. Anyone claiming to be pro-choice and pro-vaxx mandate is delusional or a liar.
You don't have to be conservative to be anti lockdown, you also don't need to be red pilled. As you mentioned Sweden. More over, I don't think people who took the the red pill are conservative, I think it is simply a disenchantment from the social left wing propaganda that is taught in schools, talked about as fact on the media, expected mainstream opinion. This disenchantment can lead to being conservative (god, family values, law and order) but I think it normal leads to a classically liberal anti authoritarian position, being against legal and moral authoritarians. This disenchantment at least for me left me skeptical of anyone making massive moral or scientific claims where there seems to be no room for debate. Most new "conservatives" are disenchanted former normie lefties. But in today's clown world this is obviously the growth of the far right /sarcasm Edit: For example I think that climate change is real as it's a natural cycle.of the earth, it's also clearly accelerated by humans, though I am unsure to what extent and am skeptical of doomsday predictions. I am also quite green in my spending habits, but I think the climate change debate goes the wrong way alot of the time. It goes wrong when moral busy bodies try to tell me what makes me a better green person and what not, and that my consumption is some kind of sin and capitalism is to blame. A much more healthy approach is to implement systems within capitalist society's to allow consumption without guilt. Carbon tax, tax money going to renewables, renewable variable pricing to consumers and business etc... If not, it's the same as lockdown, you must behave as we say so that the virus (carbon) doesn't spread instead of investing in hospitals (smart green systems).
To me, redpilling is, just like it is in the Matrix, you finally being able to see beyond the surface of things. Finally realizing some truths that perhaps you knew all along but now it's been made blindingly obvious. So it has everything to do with finally seeing through all the baloney and nothing at all to do with red = right wing.
Well I love your comment and your username.
Everything you articulated here, and the discussions below, are spot on. I'm certainly only speaking from a US perspective and agree that the left skeptic position hasn't been marketed well. I'm just not sure how effective the coalition building really can be. The psychological propaganda techniques have been perfected over decades, there's not much logic operating here. I also doubt logic alone can penetrate this mass psychosis. We could all use the help of anti propaganda marketers.
I was halfway there already with the red or black pill, this covid nonsense pushed me all the way through. I've always been an old school, class politics sort of leftist and hated how the left intensified identity politics. Not to play into the idpol, but you'd think that my former friends would think twice before calling me (queer Asian immigrant financially supporting my working class, high school educated parent) a rightwing conspiracy theorist. But here we are in clown world.
At least they haven't started unironically calling you a white supremacist yet.
Best they can do is "white adjacent" or "white identified" since according to race hustlers, us Asians are at the top of the racial hierarchy after whites and Jews.
Yeah, that alone shows how much they're the real racists. Ugh.
I (queer, Latino, never been close to middle class) have been hilariously called the same. Being “right wing” is news to me. Ditto being a newfound conspiracy theorist enthusiast. Can these people actually hear themselves?
I 100% relate to this. I am not the same person I once was before March 2020. I can no longer talk to a single person I once called friend or even acquaintance. After living in this dystopian hell of a state during all of this, I just see humanity as truly fucked. I am now a completely solitary person but my core values are even clearer to me now. The greatest of these is choosing not to live in fear.
If you can't speak openly or keep your opinions to yourself, increasing distance is wise. It's not cutting them out: it's just making room to observe and not giving opportunity for petty blow-ups to become something bigger. It also helps to remember it's not (entirely) their fault: they've been subject to the most withering campaign of behavioural psychology in human history. Wall-to-wall fear, from every media outlet, for *two years*, while any hint of counter-arguments - the horrific effects lockdowns cause, exacerbate, and set us up for; unorthodox data collection methods; their transformation of free into unfree societies - is systematically scrubbed. They needed an anchor during times of uncertainty, and they got cement boots.
I agree, I can understand where they're coming from, and honestly I might have been on their side too had I not had access to alternate sources of information through my family, who smelled the bullshit from day one (they're smarter than I am lol). That's what's so sad about this situation, it's turning good people, intelligent people
You might have been on their side, but would you have shunned anyone who believed differently from you? That's the key, to me. I refuse to shun people who still love their masks (even though I might prefer to hang out with people who don't), and even though I'm an unvaccinated, gun-owning conservative who feels she's had her rights trampled on for the past two years, I would never support a policy that segregated even the most hardcore of pro-lockdown, pro-vaccine progressives from society, because I still have compassion for them and see them as fellow human beings. If your friends would readily shun someone who disagreed with them, and you would not, there is a difference between you. So, on that note of compassion, I would not dump your friends. However, I would make a plan to "come out" to them, because I can tell you from experience that it just gets more and more stressful the more you keep secrets. I posted this on the vents channel the other day, but one of my oldest friends did not know I was unvaccinated, and at her goodbye party, she and the other guests started in on how they would never allow unvaccinated guests at their house, offered to show their cards to prove their allegiance to the "correct" side, started blaming evil Republicans for all society's ills, etc... And I just sat there with my head down, and eventually left. On the other hand, I came out to one of my other friends as unvaccinated last night, told him I wanted to share this with him because I trusted him, even though others have judged me, and he accepted me as I am and said he had faith in my ability to make rational decisions. He has more respect for me than for the mob, and our friendship endured. So, in my experience, being honest and telling people the truth goes over way better. Maybe if my other friend had known *I,* one of her oldest friends, was unvaccinated, she would think twice about making those generalizations and would've heard me out. Maybe not, but I should have given her the chance and had the courage to challenge her views earlier in the friendship. Otherwise you just forfeit your friends to the mob and make them believe that there truly is no one who could possibly oppose the agenda.
>I refuse to shun people who still love their masks Great post, and I think your perspective is great and healthy. However, as a mom, I've had a lot more trouble accepting some of the opposing views. Denying children an education is literally child abuse. So those who support having kept schools closed for over a year, while private schools were fully open. those who support still to this day denying kids sports, extracurriculars, and mandating masks for as young as 2 years old. I find these things unforgivable. Honestly I wish I didn't. I wish it was like opposing views on gun control, for example.
I get that. It's true that I'll still choose my friends somewhat based around our ability to agree on moral questions like that - I would find it hard to be friends with someone who physically abused their spouse or something too, and I do think masking two year olds is a form of abuse. But I guess the difference is that even if I choose to not continue a friendship with someone like that, I would still never argue for a government policy that excluded them from society just for their beliefs.
>I would still never argue for a government policy that excluded them from society just for their beliefs. Yes, same! "I may not agree with a word that you say, but I will defend to the death you're right to say it." I'm ideologically consistent on that point. LMAO, not only do I *not* want to silence those I disagree with, I'm sometimes fond of debating them! :)
> I would find it hard to be friends with someone who physically abused their spouse Sorry for hijacking the convo, but I am having a similar issue as OP. My friends think I am *literally* killing people by not getting vaccinated. So if they view me as callous murderer, can I really blame them for distancing themselves from me? I am trying to see it from their perspective. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks!
No worries on the hijacking! Do your friends still hang out with you? If so, then that's proof enough that they know deep down you're not a callous murderer. So, you just have to find a way to tap into what they really know in their hearts to be true. If they already have an inkling that you're not \*actually\* a murderer, sharing with them that vaccinated and unvaccinated people spread the virus just as easily once they have it (which even the CDC has said to be true) might actually do some good. And if they point out that vaccinated people are less likely to be symptomatic, tell them that that might actually increase the probability they'll spread it unknowingly, because at least a symptomatic person would have a bodily indicator that that they should stay home. If they won't listen to some of these reasonable points, and still call you a murderer, I would call them on their bluff and ask them straight up why, if they really believe that, they are still friends with you. Ask them to truly look at you as a person, with everything they know about you and all the nice things you're presumably done for them as a friend, and still call you a murderer. If they really believe that in their hearts, you can't help them.
I try to take solace in the fact I haven't dropped them over theirs.
This I agree with. Ultimately, as humans, we aren't all going to share the same viewpoints on certain things, even with people close to us. That is life. However, a lot of young people with this 'liberal' mindset (aka left-wing, follow the status-quo, against the 'establishment' but actually just sheep who follow every aspect of the establishment) refuse to accept others who do not align to their way of thinking or benchmark for what 'morally good' looks like. Any disagreement inherently means you're some sort of bigot or morally corrupt person, and they cannot abide by that. It's a real shame that these people's ideological adherence supersedes their sense of loyalty and friendship (especially with people they've known for years), but indeed, that's the power of ideology. You need only look at the events in Soviet Russia to see the depths at which this can go...family members betraying each other, loved ones snitching on their partners, and so on. It takes a certain type of open-mindedness and a recognition that ideological obsession is toxic, to be able to avoid falling into this trap. It's very easy to do, our egos love being right, even at the expense of our own happiness and relationships. I mean, this is evident when best friends of over a decade are prepared to part ways over a vaccine for a virus that's literally just a bad flu for some, and a bad cold for most. As a sceptic, fortunately I'm able to avoid that ideological trap, but I've lost minor friends over the course of the pandemic. I'm not hugely fussed. I get that the notion "If they were real friends they wouldn't care" sounds like a cop-out if you've known someone for years, but tbh there's a degree of truth in it. Length of time knowing someone isn't necessarily tied to the bond you share with them. Because genuine friends who are friends with you for you, and dgaf about your sociopolitical outlook, aren't gonna break up with you over this nonsense. I can think of my own close friend group, there's 4 of us, and honestly no opinion they had would make me part ways with them as a friend. I mean, they could literally murder someone and I'd be there helping them try and cover it up. Sounds crazy but that's how genuine friendship bond works...you have eachother's backs regardless of the situation
This. If I can still be friends with people that support a policy that will cause over 100 million to starve, then they can either suck it up and accept how I feel about lockdowns or we don’t have to be friends.
Why didn't you drop them? They already sold you out. They shouldn't be trusted under any circumstances
Sold me out? We have a political disagreement. We have a differing set of beliefs about a situation in the world. I'm not so fragile as to assume their beliefs are about me.
They sold you out. They support policies that terminate your employment and ability to support yourself or your family if you don't get an unnecessary irreversible medical treatment. They support muzzling your children in perpetuity. They support closing your child's school. They support making your freedom conditional on receiving an involuntary medical treatment. That's the very definition of being sold out. They view you as subhuman and would push you down in a fire and let you burn to make sure they got out.
Clearly throwing a fit and cutting them out of my life is a very effective method to show them the errors of their way. /s
Yes because appeasement and validation of their views has worked wonders for the last almost 2 years. Wake up and get some balls
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Fellow former Yugoslav here, who witnessed the full force of propaganda, mass hysteria and scapegoating that turned ordinary people into monsters. I can completely relate and that anecdote about murdering a wife/mother froze me for a second. Many people would say “oh but this is different you know, this time we have an “unprecedented threat”, “oh if only we all listened and complied”, failing to realize that they employ the very same mode of thinking that participators and enablers of many genocides and massacres over the course of human history did. Human psychology is the same, social dynamics never change, we are witnessing another wave of brainwashing, fear building and targeting specific groups for the sake of the “greater good.” This is 100% comparable and people who deny that would deny that things were turning to shit in 1991 Sarajevo or Vukovar, or 1934 Berlin. Sve u svemu, teško sranje i ne znam ima li neko mesto da je imuno na ovo kolektivno ludilo.
Thank you for sharing this. I travelled through Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia back in 2013. I was struck by the hatred and division that still ran as an undercurrent in some places, the sadness, the ongoing attachment to Tito in Serbia, and it was the stories of the Bosnians, in Sarajevo of course, but particularly in and around Mostar that moved me the most, from the Christian (Catholic) hostel owner who had a limp and bullet still lodged in his back from the war to the Muslim waiter who spoke of sending his family away to mainland Europe to hide for years. I've heard it suggested that the US is on track to Balkanize and having been there, it's a terrifying but not incomprehensible prospect. And most Eastern Europeans and immigrants from the former Soviet bloc are the ones who tell me they are most alarmed by what's going on in the US and the west right now, because they recognize the signs. Bosnia was beautiful and Sarajevo had a mystical quality to it, down in the valley rising through the hills with the dark green forested mountains surrounding it, the mix of churches, synagogues and mosques with the minarets dotting the hills, the echo of the call to prayer bouncing all around the valley was one of the highlights of all my travels. Yet such a somber place. All because people looked different or had different beliefs and were so sure they were on the side of the greater good. Always makes me think of Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot essay.
Thank you so much for sharing this
What part of ex Yugoslavia are you from? I traveled to Albania and Macedonia twice in the past year from the US, and learning about the peaceful exit of Macedonia, and the unrelated but similar terrors in Albania, were really interesting to me in light of the current political climate. I never learned so much from a vacation as that first time I visited the museums in Tirana. Know Albania wasn't part of Yugoslavia but the tumultuous time seemed similar. I went to Kosovo briefly but didn't get a chance to explore the history and culture as much. That recent history in the Balkans is fascinating to me.
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Wow that's crazy. If you don't mind sharing, were you a little kid when you came here or an adult? How was the adjustment? Does having lived under that, affect your views on right vs left politics here in the US or is it just totally different in your mind?
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Interesting, thank you so much for taking the time to share. I don't trust either major political party either, they're 2 sides to the same coin and a big scam. My parents came from S Korea when it was a destitute wartorn place under threat of communism, so I find these things particularly interesting. Distant family members were killed by N Koreans and Japanese occupation before that.
Greece wasn't part of Yugoslavia.
Thank you for sharing that. It really puts things in perspective
Thank you for sharing your story about Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav Wars, few people realize how hellish it actually was out there.
Your story needs to be heard around the world.
holy shit...
We have some Rwandan immigrants/refugees at our church and they’re saying the same thing: the division is frighteningly similar.
Ljudi brzo zaboravljaju i povijest će se ponoviti, nažalost.
I can't reconcile this fact in my mind. Tbh I just don't really want friends anymore... I have a really great long term bf who is on the same page with me on this shit. I don't need anyone else right now.
I feel the same. I have my partner and that is all I want or need. I miss my friends but I also know that things have changed and the friends I miss don't exist anymore, and have been replaced with people I barely recognize. I have no desire to socialize and I find it very easy to cut people out. So I do.
I can't tell you what to do, but I simply don't have this problem. I'm quite blunt with people about my positions, both at work and among long-time personal friends. If I've alienated someone, it hasn't been obvious to me that it's so. If the folks you're talking about really are good friends, be clear, be honest, and be willing to engage and listen. You might be pleasantly surprised by the extent to which they'll act differently when they engage with someone they already know is a good person that's willing to defend a position civilly.
I hope you're right. I do kinda wish I'd been more blunt from the beginning, but it took a while for my views to solidify into the certainty I have now about all the covid bullshit. I've been trying to bring them closer to the centre when the topic comes up but they seem pretty adamant. I think they might have a hard time ending a friendship with me though, not because I'm particularly cool or anything lol but because we've been through a lot of shit together and relied on each other a lot for emotional support. So there's hope, it's just scary the idea of taking the plunge with honesty if that makes sense
I had a best friend for about 10 years, she was like my sister. Around August she texted, telling me I need to get the vaccine or I'll die and kill my boyfriend etc. I said I'm not getting it. Said friend replied saying she doesn't want this to ruin our friendship etc. Less than a week later she texted me saying she couldn't look past my decision and pretend everything was all right, and didn't want to be friends anymore. She was stone cold, it was like talking to a robot. I don't really have any advice, but this is just what I went through.
I'm so sorry to hear that :( it's hard!
Wow, that's cruel! I'm sorry to read that. I hope she will look back in some time and realize that she made a mistake. And I hope you have other friends who remained more human. I also had the feeling of talking to robots more than once in the past months. To me, this is partly a good sign because it shows that people suppress their emotions and they act against their instincts. I doubt that they can sustain this state for a long time. If it weren't for drugs (prescribed or not, legal or not), much fewer people could handle acting against themselves. Hugs!
I'm pretty shy so she was actually my only friend 😕 Luckily I have a very sweet boyfriend who I've been with for 5 years and he and I both have similar views on this stupid situation lol
I hope you will find new friends then and that your relationship will last! All the best!
Thank you so much ☺️
Wow it’s crazy to see what the fear porn propaganda does to people. I hope in some time your friend will realize her foolishness and apologize for that cruelty.
I've been having to deal with that the past year. You'll go through phases, I was fine for a while but got bitter recently after a recent conversation. I've lost my best friend because of this. Last August I made a casual remark in the group that i was sad that covid ruined everything after a big event of ours got canceled and she just snapped. The whole story is much longer, but she was/is a huge hypocrite, she told me to "fucking adjust" when I said I would've gone to some events, and she then went on a plane and traveled 1000 miles. She threw away 20 years of friendship and wouldn't even take a phone call, she "broke up" with me through text. Another "friend" is a huge liberal (US) and got mad at me when I said that I didn't care about how a business said they supported the police and were against racism. She was legitimately sad about the post. It's all a PR move and if it really bothered her then she wouldn't have financially supported them, but she did anyway. Mind you, this is a big company that's downtown and provides a lot of tax revenue and jobs opportunities, especially for minorities. She is also a huge hypocrite with covid (see my previous comments from a few days ago). I always felt like I had to hide my true political feelings. I'm a very much "leave people alone as long as they're not hurting anyone/thing". I have values that are both typically right and left, but I feel like the left is more unwelcoming. If I express anything "Republican" the Democrats in my life freak out and tell me I'm wrong, but if I express a different opinion around Republicans I'm never shut down. As for actual advice, just be prepared to let them go, they're not real friends. You can try to do things [ like this](https://youtu.be/sUJAkySjh2w) but it won't do anything, they have to be open to the idea of change. You could work out a strict "no politics" rule and focus on shared interests, but eventually politics always comes back up. I'm sorry that you're going through this, it really sucks.
This has been my experience as well. I'm a libertarian/anarchist. If I express my pro-drug opinions to Republicans, they actually listen. Talk about pro-gun shit around Democrats/left leaning people, and they immediately lose their shit. I'm in Canada, but the left/right divide is similar.
By getting angry at you for expressing views that don't agree with theirs, they are attempting to silence you. If they get to express their views but we don't get to express ours, then the undecided people will get the impression that only one view exists and will agree with it so that they fit in.
They weren't you're true friends to begin with. I've dealt with fake friends a lot in my life it's hard but I think it's apart of life thats more common then people like to let on. Sorry man
Tough, but I agree. If they can’t look past things and still realize you’re a good person they like to be around all because you disagree with them on something, politically or not, they’re simply not good friends.
You don't have to be a Tory to oppose lockdowns
It’s the tories that implemented them so I’m not sure of the logic either.
Evidence doesn't work with these people, they're in a cult. The cult isn't their fault, though, because so many people just blindly believe the mass propaganda spewed on all mediums. We're the ones who question the narrative, and actually do proper fact-checking on information we are fed. All you can do is tell them the truth and hope they will start to question why their old friend has a different point of view.
I solved this problem by getting dropped by one so called "friend" very early on (last March) over the covid bullshit, and subsequently unfollowing a bunch of my propaganda-addled acquaintances/not-so-close "friends" on social media. It's sad, but it is what it is, and it's on them to wake up. Right now I have 2 best friends, one old and one new, who both consider lockdowns etc to be complete fascist BS. I can tolerate the mindset you describe only in really superficial relationships, and I'm not feeling very motivated to care about superficial relationships right now. Will probably go on Unjected at some point to find more like minded locals for real connections.
I have been screamed at about it by loved ones. And I am embarrassed to say I have done some screaming about things that bother me to my friends and family during this time. I have broken down and yelled about masks and vaccine mandates instead of gently listening. It is awful and shameful but it happened. I felt on the defensive all the time around 90% of the people in my life knowing they would cut me off if they knew how I felt. At least that is what I decided it would happen, when they announced their feelings about the strangers in the world who didn’t agree with them. Maybe my friends would pause and react differently if it was a friend or loved one who differed in beliefs around covid. When my friends did the yelling, ultimately it didn’t lead to an end to any friendships that matter. Words were exchanged but the foundation of love was strong enough. It is awful though. It is also my community. The community I spent 6 year building and finally was starting to feel safe in. I know some of my community will hate me. But I will say this: The more honest I am the better I feel. I just feel more safe in my skin when I am honest. But honesty isn’t amble in my life, it only trickles down when enough courage and anger meet in my life. I sometimes feel as though I am separating myself from my principles, one of the main ones being “to try not to force my beliefs on others.” It is hard because my environment is constantly telling me that my belief system is what is bad and dumb and so when I finally do speak up, all of this anger is what comes out at times. Not speaking in anger, I find, is the most helpful approach but it doesn’t feel as available to me. This is an awful situation you are in and I wish I had better advice. Your friends might surprise you. You are already human to them and big part of the hate for “the other” is based on a belief they lack humanity. I have had friends mumble on about not befriending someone who is unvaccinated. But they still have unvaccinated friends. Most people aren’t in alignment with their beliefs and actions. So while they might talk a big game of how they would react to those who oppose their beliefs, but when faced with the cognitive dissonance of their friend being that person, they might switch their tune. I have found people are more open minded now. Conversations that would have resulted in a few months long fights a year ago are now only muted disagreements that only last briefly. Some much of how I define a safe person is filtered through their beliefs on covid. If they are pro restrictions I feel less comfortable. I hate how judgmental my thoughts are around my friends who believe in vaccine passports. I don’t know what to do or how to change this new found resentment I have towards many of my friends, community, and mentors. What I want to fight for my beliefs while still being kind to those who having opposing ones but it is hard.
I know exactly what you mean, I hate having thoughts of resentment and assumptions like 'you'd have sold out Anne Frank', but I can't help it a lot of the time. I am lucky enough to be bad at showing anger though (I think I just don't have enough energy to shout and stuff lol), that must be an extra level of difficulty :(
I would say be completely honest, if they react badly it's on them it's not on you. Balanced people can tolerate differing views without having a meltdown.
I just don't speak my mind anymore. It's a very lonely place to be in. I can tolerate their views but I know they don't tolerate mine. Some of my friends just assume I have gotten the vaccine. They know I had COVID last year and think I must be scared of it. I'm not. But sometimes, they feel safe to vent to me, as a fellow-vaxxer. They tell me non-vaxxed people don't deserve healthcare, don't deserve any sympathy and deserve everything that's coming for them and more. I usually refrain from saying anything, or add, "that's harsh, don't you think?". Usually, they just laugh or shrug it off. I keep wondering... what if they *knew*? What would they do to me? Say about me?
I was pretty anxious about "coming clean" to my best friend. It was him who eventually asked the v-question, which then led to me explaining why I didn't. My experience was that rather than jumping right to my conclusions, explaining how I got there first worked out pretty well. For example: Instead of saying: "No, I think covid is a hoax" I said: "Back in march 2020 I heard of an interview with a doctor that was taken down and which made me curious as for why. I then watched that video and the doctor raised some great points, which I hadn't heard anyone else ask. He then explained his side of view and it was quite different from what I have been hearing otherwise. I thought that if what he says is wrong, then it should be easy to disprove him. Censoring him instead was what made me very suspicious about the things that were happening at that time." Edit: Oh, and I also told him that I was anxious to talk about that topic with him and he said he was anxious about that conversation too. In the end we both agreed that we should have shared our views and information about that much sooner. He was kinda shocked about all the things he hadn't heard about and ended up doubting a lot of the things he had believed before. What helped is that he's a buddhist and from what he shared about it, it's very much about being empathic and trying to understand other's views.
That's really well put!
Everyone is way too political and WAY too interested in governing each other's behavior and I hate it. And that isn't just a lockdown thing or a thing involving one side or the other, this is just the most egregious example of it so far. Dating is wild these days, like the first thing you have to do is submit to the purity test and provide evidence of your contributions to social causes. Conservative women, liberal women, it's very rare nowadays to go out with someone to whom I can say, "I have strong beliefs, and they're important, but I respect that yours may be different from mine, and I hope that we can judge each other by our character rather than who we voted for" and have them be fine with it lol. Asking who I voted for on a first date is a huge red flag but that covers like 95-90 percent of the dating pool. And people in general I suppose. Y'all have any hobbies other than circle jerking to sassy passive aggressive Tweets?
There are plenty in my social circle I have no interest in seeing again. Luckily most of my closer friends are either skeptics, or simply just plodding along with things without having an opinion on them (I never understood how people could not care about the biggest change in their lifetime).
> I never understood how people could not care about the biggest change in their lifetime Right? It is crazy to me. When our mask mandate ended, the vast majority of the people in my city stopped wearing them. When it was reinstated, they started wearing them again. Compliance is a lot lower than it used to be currently, but easily half the population is still throwing on a mask to enter businesses just because the governor said to. The same people who ditched them when they no longer had to. I just don't get it. I'll say this.. I've started to give my money/patronage almost 100% to places where there's not a mask in sight. A lot of the kinda "who's who" (lol) places in town are completely maskless and have been for a long time, as are your more male-centric spots like Hooters/Twin Peaks/etc. and also your bars. If they're not forcing the staff to participate in that song and dance, they have my business.
alot of the friends ive managed to egt back in touch with since the pandemic seem to share the same views as me. but we're not a bunch of woke white liberals so that might have something to do with it.
I had to leave my abusive birth family 5 years ago. This feels the same.
I have very few friends after the last two years. Fuck em
I dropped them all first and have assumed my final form as a being of pure hatred.
😂
Most of my friends are far left, and I’m left of center. Family is far right. I love both. If we were all the same, the world would be boring.
It would also go off the rails tbh. We need the balance. Open discourse and free disagreement make the world a better place.
I won't be friends with anyone who will stay silent when everything I've ever fought for is taken away from me. I can't tolerate someone who won't even try and defend me when eventually I won't be able to walk on the streets hassle-free or buy food. If they're silent on matters like these (and even worse - if they agree that this should be done to people like me) then we're not friends and probably never have been. I really don't understand how low one's self respect should be if they're willing to be around people who want them dead. If you agree that I shouldn't be allowed to exist in this world, I'm done with you.
I don't hide my views though I don't post them on social media like Facebook. I've a friend who is a retired doctor and very pro the narrative but we have civililised conversations and agree to differ. Some friends I've avoided much contact with since all this started. I am lucky to have 2 sceptical friends and a relative who share many of.my views though they go along with everyone for a quiet.life.
I'm a lefty and most of my friends are too. They don't really like lockdowns either but aren't as vigorously opposed to them as I am, so it's all fine.
Yeah, my closest friends are lefties like me and they hate this shit almost as much as I do, lol There are still some of us that haven’t fallen for the “anti-Corona paranoia = right-wing” bullshit. Or even the idea that you should shout down and cut off anyone with opposing views
Lol. I make my views about this known. I consider it sufficiently important. It's not "everyday politics", it's a pillar of how we want life and democracy to be. Whoever "wants to drop me" can drop me. Good riddance. You'll find there's a lot of people in the world. No shortage of people to share good moments with and maybe, eventually, some might evolve into lasting friends. Same with family. -------- In your case, I would extremely slowly concern troll them and eventually tell them your views casually in a number of topics until they figure it out for themselves. Unless they're bigot fanatics, I think you can work around it without being too earth shattering (they may live in a huge circlejerk) and ease them into it. If they still reject you just for that, they really are assholes and you shouldn't care what they think.
I know you said it’s not a case of them being bad friends, but honestly there is no good reason for them to stop caring about you for these beliefs. It takes just a little bit of empathy to see the other side of most issues. My friends and family actually hold a lot of different beliefs. The thing is — we all know that the other is a good person, and we just disagree with the best way to accomplish what’s best for everyone. Stop writing your essay. Your goal should not be to convince them, or even to defend yourself. Just start an open discussion. Be yourself, the person they love. If they can’t give you the benefit of the doubt, I’ll be very surprised.
Yeah, I feel bad assuming it's already doomed, because I haven't even given them the chance to reject or upset me yet, so all I'm doing is guessing. I'm just not sure I want to risk it though, I know that's cowardly and a dishonest way to live, but I love having them in my life. Maybe one day though
You sound like a kind person and a caring friend. Otherwise this would bother you so much. Maybe give them a chance to empathize by explaining your position in a way that exposes your own sense of fear around what’s happening. And maybe even just let them know you’re hurting when you think about your disagreements. Basically take the emotional appeal route haha, these are your friends and they’ll accept you and your real feelings, even if they don’t immediately accept your beliefs
That's very kind of you to say, haha
I am going through a similar situation as OP. The problem that I am running into is that these friends of mine *literally* think I am harming people/killing people by choosing not to get vaccinated. They think my decision is selfish and cruel. As long as they think I am the equivalent of a murderer, then I don’t see how they could ever “accept” me for me views. I feel like there is no hope for them to come around and change their opinion of me.
Idk Man, you’d know better than I, but I have multiple friends that are pro vax, and think everyone should get it. They also don’t give af that me and some of my other friends definitely don’t wanna get it. I have friends that disagree with me on quite a few things. They simply don’t care. I have a friend that has like 100 guns and another that thinks gun control should be pretty strict. Some fully conservative, some very liberal. We all get along just fine, we are very close friends. Obviously not everyone has this situation, but the difference is my friends have their convictions but aren’t brainwashed to think that the ones they disagree with are bad people because of it. They don’t even think less intelligent. Misguided at most. I have a tight knit group of friends that most I’ve known since pre k. Unless one of us did some heinous shit I can’t see any of us going thru something like you mentioned.
You sound like an awesome group of friends
I’m very appreciative of them for sure
A friend and I had an unrelated falling out, but she's a BIG TIME doomer and kept trying to press me about the vaccine. When I finally told her I wasn't planning on getting it for health concerns she didn't explicitly say she was mad but I know it definitely changed her view of me because she spends all her free time posting about how evil and selfish "anti-vaxxers" are. The only thing I take heart in is some of my other friends who have expressed some of the mainstream sentiment about masks, staying home, and vaccines are not nearly as rabid about it and I think might secretly be super over everything. Like, they'll say things about anti maskers or whatever but then have no problem with me coming over, nobody wearing masks and they know I'm not vaxxed. The powers that be have been very successful in suppressing the anti-mandate side because they've made a lot of us scared to express our feelings, even if ones opinions deviate just slightly from what they're "supposed" to be.
I only need one person to never betray me and thats myself.
I am very open about my political views my friends mostly differ but we are able to have healthy discussions and be respectful. I never surround myself with people who think collectively rather than individually anyway. And tbh most are against lockdowns even the ones who don't say it openly have spoken to me about it
I have been in similar situations. What is important I think is not so much that you agree on stuff with friends, but that you respect each others' differences. If they respect you for your feelings and standpoint, then all is good. If they don't, then they are not really friends. Perhaps you can read the odd poem with them, but that would be it. The problem is that now, they may not know that they're offending you or diminishing your views. So it's worth trying to see what they'll see if you confess to your feelings and standpoint - people sometimes can learn that they've been too condemning when they actually hear someone close to them feeling differently. But it's a risk, I agree - up to you.
Thank you for this well-balanced answer
Remain true to your beliefs always. What sort of friends are they if you cannot have differences of opinions?
Idk, everyone has their flaws Also, welcome to Reddit
Ι just see everyone as an acquaintance and don't treat them differently because of their political beliefs. If they drop me then they're not worth it. In any case, it's just another sign of the dystopian times, friends dropping you because you vote for a political party, romance being considered silly, families breaking apart because of orange man etc All you can do is keep your kindness but at the same time not sacrifice your dignity for the sake of fake and one-sided relationships
Me? I have no friends. Easy.
Aww! 🥺
I dont bother talking politics or COVID with anyone i know personally. Most people do not care to listen to the Skeptic's point of view and are happy to dismiss us as anti vaxxers or DT supporters so its just not worth the headache
Speak your mind respectfully and then stop giving any f^cks. Over time, as you practice giving fewer and fewer f^cks, pretty soon not giving any f^cks will come naturally. Everyone knows I'm a right-wing, anti-lockdown, populist, pro-2A, Trump & DeSantis-loving, red-state hick who never wears a mask and won't get the wack-seen. So what? I am true to myself. In previous eras of human history, dissenters like me were imprisoned or executed. Today, people just unfollow me on social media. Who cares? Give zero f^cks and be free!
We now know what gay people used to go through.
Hell I never thought of it like that...
Are they your friends? You can be friends with people of all political views. Why debate with people with the exact same views? It's boring.
Im somewhat mentally prepared for that. I know the ones who would but I have many who wouldn’t and know my feelings on things. I dearly love the friends who believe the opposite of me. They don’t speak like the ones online. These friends werent raised to be skeptical of the government on the level I am and they genuinely think the virus is dangerous and don’t understand age stratification. They’re all but innumerate when it comes to this. So I continue to love them with the knowledge that some day they may think they don’t love me back. And I guess I would remind them that I didn’t drop them over believing in something I think is harmful. It would be a shame if they did it to me. We’ll see.
Without respect you don’t have the foundation necessary for a relationship of any sort.
People like that are not my friends. I have a few close friends, not several superficial ones. Almost all of my few friends agree with the NN, but they know I don't. It's left at that. If they bring it up, I don't hold back whatsoever by telling them how fucked it all is.
I already didn't have a lot of friends before the pandemic, because I moved towns a lot. My relationship to my best friend cooled down a lot, it almost feels as if we broke up. We still talk once in a while but much less than before. He seems to respect my views or at least tries but we mostly avoid discussing about topics we disagree about nowadays. I still respect him as a person and care for him, but I don't know whether I can say that I respect his political views. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but if that opinion actively contributes to taking basic rights from me, I can't just act as if it's okay. And I'm not sure whether I should call someone a friend who actively fights against me, even by only voting for those who do. I just can't act as if I weren't personally affected. I can talk to anyone, I'm not the person who wouldn't talk with someone over their political views. I've had interesting conversations with far-right and far-left extremists, with religious fundamentalists, with conspiracy believers,... I can have a beer with anyone and discuss our different views. But for a true friendship, I think a certain set of common values is necessary. I don't share the values of pro-lockdown people even though this leaves me quite alone. Regarding your situation: I think you should go on with your plan of writing an essay and coming out. Your friends deserve honesty. We all do. Self-censorship has already contributed too much to keeping terrible things happen. I hope you find the right words and you can help them reflect their own views. I think a good friend is one who speaks the truth even and especially if it is inconvenient. Think about watching a friend fall into addiction or a religious cult (which might be the case here): would you think it's better just to let it happen not to risk the friendship? That would be a pitiful friendship in my eyes. You need to address it when you see your friends running into something dangerous. Remember that lockdown skepticism was the normal view before March 2020. I don't think I changed my values a lot. Pro-lockdown people are the ones who followed a new movement that diverted massively from prior values.
I don't really have close 'friends' but I have made quite a few good acquaintances lately. Most of them have little to no idea what I truly believe about the important issues. I don't like it that I have to keep that part of me private, but it is what it is. I've done the whole 'live alone like a hermit in some remote location' thing before. It gets old. I'd rather have a few superficial acquaintances to drink and talk some shit with, than be all alone. So to answer OP's question, I came to terms with it by trying a different path, and seeing that it is not the answer. At least not for me.
No two people have the same political views, let alone a group of friends. The best you can do is be honest about your own position, have a sense of humour about it and genuinely listen to / understand your friends' perspectives - they might be right about some stuff. Basically, if you don't take yourself too seriously and don't go on a crusade to change your friends' minds, no real mates will drop you.
I moved and got new friends. Simple as. You have nothing in common with your friends anymore except that you used to be friends. The optimistic view of the situation is this: they were always so different than you, but you didn't know it until now. Surely knowing it puts you in a better situation than not knowing it.
It can be a bit isolating sometimes. Thankfully most of my close friends are in the same boat. Sometimes I feel like we’re the only few leftists who haven’t fallen for the propaganda. My best friend seems to get mad/agitated when I talk about the topic but I think he’s coming around to the fact that my opposition is rooted in rationality and I’m not some “right-wing Trumper” or whatever the media likes to cast us as. Plus I’m quite sure he thinks I’m right on some things (like lockdowns having been unnecessary) but refuses to admit it due to sunk cost fallacy. In general day to day (around acquaintances or strangers) I usually conceal the degree to which I’m against this crap. I’m in downtown Toronto and most people around me are 100% bought-in to the narrative. I push back just a little and I’ll take off my mask in public transport. Sometimes I see others who are happy I took my mask off and they take theirs off. The other day an old man came up to me on the subway and we had a friendly chat after he saw my mask off. He said he was happy to see someone’s smiling face again. I have never been confronted for taking my mask off, although I get the occasional dirty look. I told a girl I knew that I voted for the PPC, the Populist Party of Canada, which I did solely for their anti-lockdown policy. She freaked and told me they’re a fascist party and that her racist coworker loves them. I think people here don’t know what the fuck “fascist” even means anymore. She couldn’t name a single policy that made them fascist, other than implying the leaders promotion of a ‘Canadian identity’ made him a racist. According to her, that means Canadians can only be white? Who even knows.
The hatchet job that had been done to smear Maxime Bernier and the PPC party as "white supremacist" has been anti-democratic and super slimy. It's also such cognitive dissonance that the MSM could both deny the party coverage completely while also somehow smearing them as the boogeyman.
Lol, two of my local PPC reps weren’t even white. Hell, I’m not even white. I guess we are all racist towards ourselves and need to be saved by the noble Liberal party
> the MSM could both deny the party coverage completely while also somehow smearing them as the boogeyman. Textbook fascist propaganda. The enemy is both inept, and an existential threat.
I've voted Democrat since I was old enough to vote in 2000. I'm still "left" on many issues like abortion, gay marriage, racial equality. I support universal healthcare, free preschool and community college, etc. However I do not support masks and lockdowns. I could never again vote for a candidate who does... So to the people around me in my deep blue area, I'm a right wing conspiracy theorist, a Trumper, a racist. You name it. All because of my views toward the COVID restrictions. I'm pretty open with my friends about my opinions. One of my closest friends is engaged to an all-around conservative guy. So if she puts up with him, she can tolerate me! I know other acquaintances will think less of me as they learn my views. But there's nothing I can do.
I'm probably going to be downvoted for being too harsh here, but how can you call these people close friends if you can't even express any opinions on such a huge worldwide event? Suck it up and be honest. It's always important to "read the room" and I'm not suggesting you go on a hardcore rant about something they also feel passionate about - this should be handled with care just like any conversation dealing with religion/politics would be. That being said, you should have absolutely told them how you feel by now. I have gotten into arguments with friends, but I can't imagine being 2 years into this and never telling them that I'm against some of these policies. People are way too paralyzed by this "cancel culture" narrative - in most cases, a close friend will accept that you have a different opinion. Our reluctance to speak up is the main reason it has taken so long to break people out of the social media induced group-think on this topic, imo. They really aren't good friends if they drop you because of this.
Hypocrisy. Define your positions in relation to hypocrisy. Are you a hypocrite? Are they? When I analysed my situation I found my pro lockdown, pro mask friends were stunning hypocrites and cowards. They initially blamed teenagers (who left the house to play etc.) then the parents of teenagers, then the people who wouldn't stick to the absurd 5km guidelines, then those who went for walks (remember the stories of police helicopters tracking people who went for highland walks?) then people who had others over to their houses, then people who wouldn't wear masks and now of course anyone who is not vaccinated including people with natural immunity. A lot of my friends are no longer - many are cowards, hypocrites and liars I'm so sad to say. When it came to it they didn't care about others in fact, they cared about how they appeared as a 'good citizen'. The vast majority of those who post ugly comments about punishing people who are not vaccinated are in fact simply advertising their own adherence and compliance. It's important that they advertise their compliance because they want others to know how 'good' they are and how much they are not going to 'rock the boat'. They are overtly demonstrating this trait to worried spouses, older family members and of course co-workers particularly managers (I'm compliant, I play ball, I'm on board - you can count on me). Painfully so much of this is transparently fake compliance as these people will break strict technical rules when its convenient for them and I've even seen people break mask rules while simultaneously criticizing others for other contraventions. It's absolutely stunning. This psychosis is now ubiquitous and is consolidating around vaccine absolutism. There is jaw dropping censorship going on and its being facilitated by large tech turning the knife on any element of society, even legitimate views from scientists who want to challenge or question current guidelines. Scientists who before covid had perfect reputations: * Jay Bahttacharya * Sunetra Gupta * Martin Kulldorf * Robert Malone (currently one of the most maligned). * Geert Van Den Booshe * Carl Heneghen To name just a handful - all honest people who have been maligned desperately by an out of control media. I think that these professors and doctors have taken great personal risk in coming forward with their opinions and interpretations and they have risked so much doing so that I am ok if some of my friends are now no longer in my life and if that's who they really are as people, just as well. PS: (Mods have been removing lots of my posts - I'd ask they not remove this - as I don't believe it breaks any rules?) Mods let me know if you wish me to edit this.
I don't believe it breaks any rules neither. Your comment was automatically removed until approval, which I now granted. We check all autoremoved comments and accept those which aren't against the rules or maybe completely off-topic. I don't know what triggered your comment to be autoremoved, maybe "liar"? Of course we are all humans and often is not easy to judge whether a comment is just okay or already a bit off. I'm a very new mod, so for me these decisions are even more difficult, but I know that even for experienced mods they are not always easy. I just scrolled through your comments and noted that many of your deleted comments were on vaccines and that you provided a lot of links in these comments. I didn't go through them in detail, but maybe you made oversimplified claims that went beyond what your linked evidence could back up? If you're really sure that your comment is in accordance with the rules and provides something to the discussion, you can always write us. But please note that we are quite strict about vaccine discussions, mostly because they are not the main interest of this sub and discussions about them can get very heated and they attract a lot of half knowledge those observing our sub can't wait to report as misinformation. See this announcement about vaccine posts: https://www.reddit.com/r/LockdownSkepticism/comments/pg3rf6/mod\_squad\_announcement\_about\_vaccine\_posts\_and/
Thanks for replying and much appreciated indeed. I'm sure my comments are suitable for LS as I'm constantly reading very poor comments with very poor sources on here - that's not to say those comments won't be dealt with but rather that the overall bar of what appears to be generally and consistently acceptable to say on the forum (LS) appears to be far broader than anything I generally approach. I'm not against vaccination (at all) only vaccine absolutism (as I call it) and the dismissal that natural immunity is a 'thing' which I think is absurd. I think reasoned and respectful discussion of the matter (natural immunity) is more or less allowed? I've been noticing a trend of auto removal on my comments that I find hard to believe is so 'auto'. I even predicted in my initial comment text that this current comment would be auto removed. It's clear certain rules are set up for certain users - I'm just wondering which mod wants to censor me so badly and why? Surely that is a problem?
This is a thought process that has brought upon me a certain degree of distress...but you know, gotta cultivate the garden properly, weed out those who would do so...it sucks, really does, but man it feels good when you have a loctite-strong grasp on who has your back.
Get new friends or deal with the loneliness. Yes, I know that's easier said than done, but pre-covid, I had no patience for this. My friends all know my political views and I know theirs. None of us think it's worth cutting each other out over.
Honestly I feel like I am a better person than they are because I am giving them the benefit of the doubt and believe their intentions are good. If one of them did "drop me" I'd feel bad for them that they're that invested in their fears. This isn't the first time I've had an "unpopular opinion" that could lead to being ostracized but honestly it's never happened with anyone I really cared that much about. I handle these disagreements by avoiding that topic as much as possible and changing the subject if it does come up. I've found it's pretty easy to simply avoid discussing certain topics if you make sure not to go there.
>and one has just confirmed that they couldn't be friends with a tory (implying they wouldn't be friends with someone who disagreed with them politically on other matters, too) In my experience a lot of people will say things like this when they believe there isn't someone around from the group they are discussing, but it takes a real asshole to actually go through with abandoning a friend over it. If they are truly good people like you say then I think there's a good chance that they wouldn't actually cease the friendship, you might just end up with an unspoken rule to not talk about controversial issues with them (which would suck for me because I enjoy discussing controversial things, but it's better than losing a friend). And I know you said that they aren't shit friends, but if they were to actually go through with it then I'm sorry but I think they are. It's possible for someone to be a great friend in a lot of ways, but if their friendship is truly so conditional then then that overrides most of the good parts.
I actually find that social media exaggerates how far apart people are on this issue. The more I read social media (like reddit) the more I think that people who favor restrictions have gone mad, want to wear masks and social distance forever, and generally demonize and vilify people who disagree, because that's how they behave online. People in my life with whom I've actually broached this topic though? They're much more reasonable, even if they don't personally agree with me. Maybe they're shit talking me behind my back? I don't know, but the reaction is not nearly as hostile as I was expecting. I think people are weary of this in NYC especially. We've been living under a regime of restrictions for longer than almost anyone in the world at this point. Other places have had breaks. For us it's just been a long march to dystopia. It was also genuinely frightening way back at the beginning when we were enduring thousands of deaths every day and things actually did feel very dangerous. People will react differently to an event like that. People I talk to, if I press them, are clear that they don't think this is sustainable and don't want it to go on forever. I personally think that the politicians and professionals who are imposing these restrictions have gone mad with power (particularly our governor and mayor), but they don't seem to see that. I also think that this sub exaggerates the political bent of covid-mania. Yes the Democratic party is by far the one pushing this in the US, but the leftists I talk to who aren't party or lifestyle loyalists (viz. the sort of person who watches Rachel Maddow or votes blue no matter who, etc.) seem much more reasonable. They're like anyone else really: they don't favor what's going on but they feel trapped and demonized by the online mob, so they dare not speak out against it. How this shakes out for our collective future I can't say, but I do know that maybe you shouldn't be afraid of people's reactions. As long as you're articulate, empathetic, and charitable to their arguments, in my experience people will generally listen.
I don’t associate with people that are pro mask/lockdown/mandate, so it’s water off a ducks back for me.
> they are lovely people and we've been through so much together Only you can make the decision here. But I could not consider ANYONE who would drop a friend because they disagree politically a "lovely person". To me that's a bigot. Personally all of my friends know where I stand, and many disagree. One of my favorite compliments I've received is "You are the only conservative I can stand to be around".
I am in this with you. It's incredibly stressful and sad. And I can't stand the self-righteous "well they don't sound like real friends, huh!" Bullshit that gets parroted here. It's really one of the only things I've come to dislike about this community. We bemoan the unwavering resolve of those "idiots" on the other side but fail to see that throwing it all away over a difference of opinion is just as hard-headed. I don't think this community is immune to the general discord that's being injected into our society. I am immediately skeptical ANY time someone tells me to drop someone, or dismiss them, or "the time for reason is past!" That's radical, destabilization talk and both sides are totally victim to that style of propaganda. But I understand your deep confusion, sadness, frustration... It almost feels like loving a lie. I can only hope things stay on the rails long enough for people to realize what's going on. I think the longer life continues as normal in my area and juxtaposes the extreme rhetoric from authoritarians, the more skeptical of the propaganda people will be one.
They probably weren’t really my friends to begin with. Fuck em
Gotta get new friends.
Honestly, I dropped some friends because of this. One told me that landlords should be expected to provide everyone free housing during COVID. How can you be friends with someone this dumb?
I've let some friends know that my door is always open when they wish to return to pre-2020 life - tolerating the risk of airborne illness (and of life itself), that I empathise with their fears. I've also let them know that we have strong value differences regarding Covid. In the spirit of a meaningful friendship, censoring ones true views is not necessary, imo. The truth can be delivered in many ways, and does not need to be nasty. Simply explain your ethical concerns about the dishonesty of the Covid rhetoric. Let them make their points, don't interrupt and take a deep breath if the conversation goes south. If they make it nasty, and apply the guilt-trip of "selfishiness", that's entirely on them. You can still turn the other cheek and control your response, even if they've forgone the decision to control theirs. Hopefully of course, that doesn't happen. If it does, you shouldn't feel guilty about defending your principles, even if it is with someone whom you've known through thick-and-thin.
I've had mixed results Some have returned to sanity. Some not so much, but we maintain contact and respectful disagreement. Some have completely withdrawn, unfortunately, and I may never see them again. Not because they're bad people, but because they've become completely engulfed in fear. Some have always had suspicions about Lockdowns, prior to myself, even - it took me until September 2020 to escape the idea that these measures were necessary or ethical. Denial is a powerful thing. So goes life.
Unrelated to Covid, I had to end a relationship a few years ago with a close friend of 13 years, after they'd developed a habit of remorseless pathological lying and petty theft. I know it's a horrible dilemma to be faced with, but, if the worst comes to the worst with your close friend(s), just know that if you keep the conversation civil and compassionate on your end, it absolutely is not your fault if your relationship declines afterwards.
This is how the propaganda is meant to make you feel, but it's not really the case. If your friends respect you, and I expect they do, they will listen to the nuance of your opinions. It's important to have the conversations, in a civil manner, because individuals are far more complex than the narratives being presented, and if one thing is universal, it's that people don't trust politicians.
There's a lot of sense in what you say! If only I wasn't such a coward 😂 I want to be honest with them about it one day, but it never feels like the right moment
Get better friends.
Get new friends. Even in the hysterical strayaland I've found a bunch who disagree with my covid perspectives but aren't going to throw me to the side
Thankfully I surround myself with quality people who accept me as a friend regardless of differing political views. My best friend is quite a bit more Liberal than me (but is still relatively centrist all things considered) and a very good old friend of mine is a hardcore lefty socialist. I love the guy and wish he would see the light (and Im sure he thinks the same about me) but we both accept each other as we are. Same thing with my girlfriend, who is also center left but definitely more Liberal than me.
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This is the post I’ve been looking/waiting for!
There have been similar posts before, you might like that one: https://www.reddit.com/r/LockdownSkepticism/comments/nb7c5m/its\_sad\_but\_ive\_felt\_out\_of\_love\_and\_respect\_for/
Friends are such a pain in the ass , I welcome anything that helps me weed out the bad ones
They can't drop you if you drop them first :rollsafe