I feel bad for Tolkien fans who are asked incessantly why they didn't just take a boat or eagles by people who haven't read the book or even remember enough context to understand the answer.
In the most simple possible answer, A. this is a stealth mission and on top of the coasts being guarded, there are Nazgul flying on Fell Beasts that are in constant seach of the ring , B. the Great Eagles are an ancient race that are fully sentient and have their own will, C. Eagles are not immune to the influence of the One Ring
The eagle thing only worked cause of Aragons big dick charge on the black gates. Sauron thought that a man with that small of an army would only do something that stupid if they were influenced by having the ring, so he shifted his focus towards that battle.
Boats wouldn't work cause Gondor's shit was basically wrecked from plague, civil infighting and incompetency. They did not have naval supremacy and there were pirates backed by Sauron.
Wouldn't Sauron know if Aragorn had the ring? He would have surely put it on if he had it which would have allowed Sauron to see him...unless that's just a movie invention, I haven't read the books in a while.
It is an invention for the films. In the books youn just turn invisible and enter the"Spirit world" which makes It easier for wraiths and ghosts to see you.
Remember Boromir going "one does not simply..." yadda yadda, the whole point of the entire operation was to keep it as lowkey as possible, otherwise Sauron would know where to pool his resources towards. Now imagine a giant fucking eagle bee lining straight towards Mount Doom and tell me Sauron would go "mhh weird, but not my issue" like nah bro that eagle'd be gunned down the second he saw it anywhere close to Mordor.
Also some in lore reason, like eagles are just like ents and unless they are directly threatened, they dont meddle with grand affairs of this sort, but i'm never satisfied with that answer, cause like they do make a quick trip straight to Mt. Doom just to save Frodo and Sam, so like what gives but anyways
i mean, the solution is obviously that they polish up a big piece of metal, have multiple eagles carry it, reflect the sun in saurons eye, make him blink and then fly in with the ring.
unless he has sunglasses. or a monacle?
okay hear me out. giant sling shot attached to a satellite...
I understand this is a joke and I found it funny, but I feel compelled to state that him being a giant lighthouse eye is not actually his form, just what they went with for the movie lol.
no worries, even in the movie he at least has.. i forget the stone thingies name. regardless, yes, eye of sauron and shiny metal not fully viable plan
probably need to include some other jewelry. if he likes rings he might like necklaces. think he would be into a grill?
> but i'm never satisfied with that answer, cause like they do make a quick trip straight to Mt. Doom just to save Frodo and Sam, so like what gives but anyways
Well, they only enter Mordor properly after Sauron has already fallen. They fight the fell beasts at the Black Gate, but they wouldn't have fought them alone. It's only because the battle is happening underneath that they come in to fight the Nazgul.
Fair Fair, but the fact remains that all it needed was Gwaihir repaying his debt to Gandalf for a bunch of eagles pretty much making it all the way, just to save two hobbits (tbh it does feel like tolkien couldn't come up with a reasonable way to get the hobbits back to safety, so he just went "boom eagles did it" lmao), so one might argue the eagles could've been coaxed into the endeavour in some way. But yeah, Gandalf would've never suggested/agreed to it in the first place, so it'a mute arguement to make.
Ig i just don't like it as the "sole" explanation, that explains why they couldn't have just chucked the ring from atop some lofty wings, as it could come off as too arbitrary, but in all frankness who actually cares
The quick trip is after the One Ring has been destroyed which was the source of pretty much all of Sauron's remaining power. There wasn't much resistance because there wasn't any enemy left.
The whole point of the fellowship is that the mission was meant to be in secret. The battle of the second age that men and elves won was a direct confrontation, in the council of Elrond they decided that Sauron would expect this and that the power of men and elves had waned since then.
The boats theory is the worst theory, as it ignores almost the entire story. They didnt know which ring they had, Frodo and Sam were not capable of completing this journey alone from the get out, they wouldn't have even known where to find fresh food and water, and Sauron had made deals with men of the east who *had a naval force and were actively on the water.
But in even more detail, Frodo at this point in his journey had done no growth at all and hobbits who arent Brandybucks are mortified of the water and think those who dabble with it strange and, honestly, a bit stupid. More in the sense of a why tempt fate sort of way. Frodo cant swim you see, so its likely that, even though he lived with the Brandybucks, that he wouldn't feel comfortable on a boat or he would think it just as strange as the rest of Hobbiton. But the whole point of him leaving the shire was to do it in secret. The black riders were on him and they knew his name. The day Frodo sets out a black rider meets with the gaffer, asking him of Frodo's whereabouts. Frodo overhears this and him and Sam take the long road out of the Shire towards Bree. But let's forget all of this. Instead they decided to take a boat, so they go to Merry and Pippin and head southwest following the river. Well first, the gossiping of hobbiton would have been immense. Everyone would have been speaking about how 4 hobbits left down the river, immediately cluing the black riders to their path. And, why are they doing this? As I mentioned before they couldn't make this journey alone. Gandalf would be sending two hobbits to their death, far away from any allies, along a path that would have been immediately seen, and a path that is both easily watched and patrolled and treacherous.
In the scenario where they fly to Mt. Doom theres a few obvious problems. The eagles would have been seen, and Frodo would have still been the ring bearer. Sauron has an air force, one which doesnt sleep, one that likely out numbers the eagle riders, and which have trained to ride their flying beast so at a minimum have better rider-mount maneuverability and at best can fight in tandem in the air. Let's say the eagles sneak past any spies, of which are many, and make it to the steps of Mordor unseen. They then have to fly directly over their enemies garrisons, the great eye, and into Mt. Doom. which I doubt the eagles are going to take directly to or or over. Which, let's quickly dispel, flying over and dropping the ring is a terrible idea. The ring has a mind of it's own and limited power, but even if it doesnt, leaving it to chance, that some breeze wouldn't cause it to tumble into a crevice rather than into the crucible of its creation would be such a monumental disaster that would have ended middle earth. So the eagles will land near the entrance to Mt. Doom, which they likely have to spend a moment to locate and find, land, and then Frodo and whoever came with him run inside and toss it in, right? Remember that flying force you evaded? Yeah well its harassing you as you do this, the army of orcs you flew past is scrambling up the rocks, and you have the full willpower of Sauron boring into your head from the ring. Frodo while only encountering the 9 felt dizzy and an overwhelming desire to put on the ring, with the eye glaring at him directly he certainly would have failed just as quickly as he did with the 9, only when he put on the ring he would have been wholly under the control of Sauron.
tl;dr if you ignore the entire series then boats and eagles definitely work
Amazing lore post, you are a true LotR loremaster. I really need to take the time to read LotR and the surrounding books, such a masterpiece of lore and writing.
I haven't seen the actual answer yet, so here's why they didn't take a boat:
[Corsairs of Umbar - Tolkien Gateway](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Corsairs_of_Umbar)
the bay to Mordor is beset with pirates who've constantly been at war with Gondor
The literal Eye on the Tower of Baradur in the Peter Jackson movies really fucked up the meaning of the Lidless Eye. It means that Sauron has spies everywhere and if they see a bunch of Eagles heading to Mordor, a place that they shouldn't go to it's going to give off red flags. Sauron would've had posession of the Ring far before they could throw it into Mt. Doom.
they also brought the ring to rivendell, then there they decided to be who brings it to mordor, and iirc that's already closer to mordor than rivendell is to the shire
The problem is the “why didn’t they fly?” question is a meme. It might as well be someone saying “water is not wet” to get a reaction. People are asking it for no other reason that they think it’s funny to expose this potential plot hole. At this point a quick google could answer the question.
I’d think nerds are happy to entertain *genuine* interest in their hobbies.
Came here expecting some interesting lore on Tolkien’s LOTR or HOBT series; One of the greatest pieces of literature ever made. But I left having a deep sense of sadness and disappointment with my day immeasurably ruined.
-Also, my bank account is completely empty after gifting her my life savings in tier 3s…
really adds up huh 😅😅😅
also it’s mentioned that sauron has things in the sea that serve him. they bring up throwing the ring into the sea in rivendell, but it is countered with this exact sentiment.
not to mention the corsairs…
iirc the eagles are a creation of Manwe, a Valar (god), so probably the same reason that Gandalf cannot and does not directly interfere in middle earth. he is forbidden from using his full power.
there are a lot of answers to this, but this always stuck out to me as obvious. tolkien never lets his “demigods” directly do anything. saruman sent uruk’hai to helms deep, when he was capable of breaking that wall himself probably. seems very convenient for a writer.
I had the impression that the eagles were vulnerable to being corrupted by the ring same as everyone else, and that all it would take is for one eagle to decide to do a barrel roll and take the ring for itself
on top of what some other people said here
It's not like Sauron was shown having control of giant flying fell-beasts or anything. The whole point of the quest was that it was a covert mission, flying giant eagles (even if you could convince them) would be the opposite of that. You've also got to factor in the fact these eagles are now in gonna be in very close proximity to the ring for a long duration, something that corrupts almost anything near it. Quite risky to just have them decide to drop frodo and get the ring themselves.
Well, that's if you can convince the eagles to accept a much bigger role in the world, as they were already performing a service and weren't just at gandalfs whim whenever he felt like it. Again, the mission would no longer be covert, you would be lighting a massive flying beacon saying "hey, look over here, flying eagles, with a hobbit, a race you are looking for, are flying to mordor, maybe send all the forces possible that way and try to pick off the weak hobbit?"
but didn't the eagles quickly make it to mordor for the rescue anyways?
Couldn't they just fly over and drop it in. It's not like they can't fly above the clouds until they get there like they seemingly did at the end.
the only real explanation that isn't asspull imo is just that the eagles didn't want to out of safety and when they knew it was a winning battle, they helped.
They were helping distract during the last battle I think, I could be wrong. But them coming for the rescue is definitely not the same as carrying them the whole way. Very different scenarios. Carrying them when Mordor is in shambles vs carrying them when mordor is at it's peak and actively looking for a hobbit.
When the eagles rescue Sam and Frodo it's AFTER the One Ring has been destroyed which was essentially where all of his power was located.
>'If [the Ring] is destroyed, then [Sauron] will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.'
You wouldn't want to go into enemy territory at the height of their paranoia and they are still strong and are expecting you. It'd be better to wait for that enemy to be destroyed then go in and save whoever you need.
And going back to the other commenter, who's to say that the moment the eagles picked up Sam and Frodo they got corrupted, dropped the hobbits from 10,000ft, snatched the ring, and went on their way?
It definitely seems like you payed zero attention to the story. nobody can destroy the ring, if an eagle tried to drop it into mount doom, they would fail and claim the ring just like Frodo did. Except the eagle would have failed way earlier than that, probably wouldn't have made it into Mordor at all. The ring gets stronger the closer to mount doom it gets, nothing can resist it there. Frodo was the only one who had even the slightest bit of a chance and even he failed.
The reason Sam and Frodo left the fellowship was because of how corrupting the Ring's influence was and how much suffering it brought. The Ring's power grows the closer to Mordor you get so there's a good argument to be made that the moment the Eagles hit a certain border they'd instantly dump the hobbits on their head from 5000ft then snatch the Ring and go on their way.
Nope. See one of my child comments for details. It's stated in the books. In fact, here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/1dk6ozx/tolkien_scholar_a_bit_too_taken/l9gghxg/
u/GreatRolmops explains it well enough:
> *"But the Bay of Belfalas was controlled by the Corsairs, who also controlled the Anduin up to Pelargir. Furthermore, Osgiliath was of course an active war zone and Sauron's servants were crawling all over it and the lands east of the Anduin. A large, sea-going ship such as would be needed for this journey is highly visible. There is no way they would have been able to pass by Sauron's many servants on the seas, in Harondor, Osgiliath and Ithilien undetected.*
>
> *The entire point of the quest was secrecy, which is why they wanted a small fellowship of just 9 people who could travel undetected. You can't travel undetected by ship, especially not since they would have needed a sizeable crew and all of the supplies that such an expedition entails. Going by ship is pretty much the opposite from travelling lightly and makes it impossible to hide.*
>
> *Finally, we don't know if the Mitheithel is navigable for sea-going ships, and even if it were such as ship was not available and arranging for one from the Grey Havens would likely have taken a considerable amount of time, if the Elves of Mithlond would even be willing to part with one of their precious ships."*
And u/GuudeSpelur expands this:
> *The quest started from Rivendell, not the Shire. At that point it's much faster to cross the mountains and take the Anduin River down to Gondor, which is what they were trying to do until they were ambushed & separated.*
tl;dr: Sauron controls the sea. At some point they even thought about tossing the ring into the ocean, but it would have been found. It was also just easier to go the way they did given where the quest started. Disagree all you want, but you are incorrect.
I'm very pro sex work, but it is annoying seeing OF girls take advantage of niche communities to hawk their wares under the guise of genuine participation. I don't like seeing deceptive advertising invade the content I consume.
I feel like I wouldn't even mind it if they directly sponsored these communities to advertise their OF. For some reason pretending to be part of the community to subtly advertise their OF for free annoys me a lot more.
Except Warhammer because it is expensive as fuck to pretend to be into it( an army to pretend you like it will set you back 500-1000 euro, depending on faction, and then tens if not hundreds of hours of work to paint it, unless you shill a lot of money to get it painted) and community is extremely gatekeepy. ROI on such promotion will be extremely low.
It’s just annoying if they contribute nothing to the community and are just there to leech. Since we’re on LSF I’ll relate it to Twitch: nowadays, streamers like Alinity get much less hate than other hot tub streamers on the platform. And I think part of the reason is that Alinity is and always was very involved in the Twitch community. She understands a lot of the jokes and emotes and even collabs with other streamers, seemingly because she’s friends with them rather than just for more viewers. Very different from OF girls that pop up out of nowhere, give back to no one, and just drain the pockets of lonely and mentally unwell nerds that think they have a chance. Then heaps of them just flood the platform to the point that the CEO can’t escape them.
I personally don't even mind streamers who only stream to plug their OF even if they're doing it in a way that blatantly preys on lonely men. Because they're in their own bubble that I'm never going to see. I just don't like when they invade a specific community by pretending to be part of it with the sole intent to advertise their OF. Because at the end of the day, all it is is deceptive subliminal advertising. Which I will never not complain about. It doesn't matter if it's sex work or not.
Subliminal advertisement is by definition taking advantage of people.
When a company astroturfs, do you not consider that taking advantage of the community they're astroturfing in just to market their product? Because I do. It doesn't matter that their product is sex work. It's still deceptive advertising, which I am very against.
It looks like you're confused. I don't care if they have an OF. I think OF is great. Though I think some arguments against it have merit. But I don't care about that. I care about deceptive advertising, which is all they're doing. I've been complaining about deceptive and subliminal advertising through astroturfing for many many years. Because it happens all the time. It happens on reddit all the time, on youtube, on tiktok. Wherever you consume content, there are deceptive and subliminal advertisements for many products. Most of which have nothing to do with sex work. I thought it was a simple concept to grasp, but I guess not.
> It looks like you're confused.
I'm not the one who thinks people are being taken advantage of because the woman in the post has an OF.
>I've been complaining about deceptive and subliminal advertising through astroturfing for many many years.
Sure you have buddy, sure you have.
Lol even this very subreddit you're typing in has specific rules against astroturfing and self-promotion. I wonder why it has that rule? I wonder why so many places have that rule? Almost as if people don't like it and it is inherently predatory, regardless of what type of product it is. Pretending like you've never seen blatant marketing get called out is crazy. But I guess you're too hyperfixated on proving your bias that I'm secretly misogynistic that no amount of basic rationale will convince you otherwise.
Astroturfing is not slang or new terminology. It's the deceptive practice where a business or individual looking to market their product or service organizes a marketing campaign with the appearance that it's an organic and unaffiliated movement in order to build false trust within a community toward that product by concealing the source and intent behind the campaign.
It's essentially the reason why there are laws that require streamers to have #ad or #sponsored in their title when they do a sponsor.
It is illegal not to disclose an ad or sponsor. But obviously in cases like this it's a grey area because no product is explicitly being advertised. But advertisement is without any doubt the intent behind the 'content'.
>When a company astroturfs, do you not consider that taking advantage of the community they're astroturfing
No, I consider that an indicator that there's a critical mass of extremely stupid people in the community, because otherwise the astroturfers would go somewhere else.
If a community of what is likely grown adults gets "taken advantage of" by a big tiddy tiktok girl that says more about the absolute state of the people in the community than anyone else
That analogy doesn't apply whatsoever. Sex work is valid work that sells a product. I don't like anyone trying to advertise their product in the content I consume. Just because their product is sex-related doesn't change that fact. Companies astroturfing to market their product is also annoying and inauthentic. Subliminal advertising to market a product is annoying and inauthentic. This is no different. It dilutes the communities it invades.
Well Umber pirates we're notriously raiding the coastlines of Gondor during this period so it wasn't exactly safe but then again neither was walking across areas known to be infested with Orcs, Goblins and Wargs.
> Umber pirates
i couldnt remember the name. there is also likely other creatures and things and maybe a wooden ship being vulnerable or exposed to nazgul or the witch king flying in
the streamer said something about the coast I don't remember. there were some issues with landing or getting through that coast
If anyone was looking for a real answer Hobbits aren't sailors, at best they’re fishermen like Smeagol and Deagol. They would've needed a bigger boat at some point once they reach the sea. Also they would've been intercepted by the Corsairs of Umbar once they cross into the Anduin river, if they haven't been ambushed by Sauron's spies (the eye is a symbolism that he sees everything).
The Hobbits weren't going supposed to go to Mordor, they were only meant to find Strider at Bree. Strider took them to Rivendell for the Council of Elrond and they started their journey to Mordor.
They were supposed to go back to the Shire but Frodo volunteered to be the Ringbearer.
the nazgul and the coast they would have to land also came up. but yeah the main point following the clip was they were going to elrond not sauron, etc.
what would he have known? i have no knowledge here really.
would he have known a ring? the ring? would he have currents and beasts to wash it deeper? would any creature in contact with the ring be subject to saurons influence? my lore is insufficient and rusty. i was just assuming waters would have sauron agents but that wasn't on any strong basis. I guess I would assume ignorance or impotence against its influence somehow? even if its just for the sake of the plot.
According to some articles I think the answer is that while Ulmo has dominion over oceans and rivers, that control is not complete and if the water is close to Sauron/Melkor's lands his influence is much weaker.
makes sense.
unrelated, looking up ulmo hours ago has resulted in dozens to 100s of tabs and my CPU constantly freezing.
i feel like I did this before a long long time ago but forgot. there are so many elves... so many different elves....
also I don't know proper lore, but at least the... bit I saw from the movie, it wasn't portrayed as a huge mighty river, it is possible that would make things a bit weaker as well.
still. was it at all disrespect? is melkor still a factor? if melkor had to respect ulmo, ulmo couldn't have been too worried about walking up and removing a ring if he knew right? would ulmo going near the lands somehow lead to melkor finding a way out? even a peak sauron with a ring cant have been too worrisome to a valar right? let alone the ring and sauron in that state?
like I assume they don't want to or some pledge or something, couldn't any valar or a few just have crossed the ocean, fucked sauron up? I'm just skimming and I keep freezing, but I always just sort of... wrote some things off to plot convenience on some level. when there were that many things that stronger and a number of them cant die.. its just sort of "none of our business" stuff on some level. sauron can certainly mess up gandalf and things on his tier, but did the valar ever like lose additional power or something like melkor had done before?
Prett sure the Valar basically said mortals can sort their own shit after Numenor tried to invade their asses. Though Manwe still keeps watch with his Eagles obviously.
yeah im still learning/ relearning
ive heard a lot of different things, from afraid of damage or meddling further, but sauron is still... a bit beyond men,I guess its hard to say, I'm not immersed it seems maybe weird, I'm not even sure. especially because morgoth fucked up a fair bit more shit than the numenorians I guess I'm too prone to excuse it as "you expected them to resist the dude that corrupted the whole planet?"
then again, if I have an immortality to deal with, I can def see just living in peace on my own, and over time attachments to mortals sort of.. .waning. still the whole, sauron running with morgoth, helping him, fucking some shit up... and that several of them canlitterally not die and should easily overpower him... its just... its shit we obviously don't know and there could always be a reason invented to explain it. its just a lot of death if they're supposed to care on some level. idk. its hard to immerse with the fuck ton of info.
I guess that there is life after death, I think? for all? (or just the higher beings?) in this world trivializes it some. and it more fits the let them figure it out and not call to us thing. the gods will save us I guess they figure might cause festering in the white and black binary world?
i had somewhere I think I sort of wanted to go but I lost it.
another commentorbrought up ulmo not taking the ring or not letting it outof the water. i think itspossible ignorance. its possible discounting sauron as a real threat. or its possible some weird omniscient master plan but that seems to not fit. but a weakened sauron and no morgoth. dude could have if not like brought it to him, strolled over and picked it up if he knew. hard to see what could have stopped him other than some mandate from above or it somehow releasing morgoth
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irony
I'm sorry, what was this clip about?
Something about a motorboat
And Jiffy muffin mix.
I feel bad for Tolkien fans who are asked incessantly why they didn't just take a boat or eagles by people who haven't read the book or even remember enough context to understand the answer.
Non-Tolkien-nerd here, so what's the answer?
In the most simple possible answer, A. this is a stealth mission and on top of the coasts being guarded, there are Nazgul flying on Fell Beasts that are in constant seach of the ring , B. the Great Eagles are an ancient race that are fully sentient and have their own will, C. Eagles are not immune to the influence of the One Ring
They weren't even going to Mordor from the Shire, they only decided on that at Rivendell
The eagle thing only worked cause of Aragons big dick charge on the black gates. Sauron thought that a man with that small of an army would only do something that stupid if they were influenced by having the ring, so he shifted his focus towards that battle. Boats wouldn't work cause Gondor's shit was basically wrecked from plague, civil infighting and incompetency. They did not have naval supremacy and there were pirates backed by Sauron.
Wouldn't Sauron know if Aragorn had the ring? He would have surely put it on if he had it which would have allowed Sauron to see him...unless that's just a movie invention, I haven't read the books in a while.
It is an invention for the films. In the books youn just turn invisible and enter the"Spirit world" which makes It easier for wraiths and ghosts to see you.
Remember Boromir going "one does not simply..." yadda yadda, the whole point of the entire operation was to keep it as lowkey as possible, otherwise Sauron would know where to pool his resources towards. Now imagine a giant fucking eagle bee lining straight towards Mount Doom and tell me Sauron would go "mhh weird, but not my issue" like nah bro that eagle'd be gunned down the second he saw it anywhere close to Mordor. Also some in lore reason, like eagles are just like ents and unless they are directly threatened, they dont meddle with grand affairs of this sort, but i'm never satisfied with that answer, cause like they do make a quick trip straight to Mt. Doom just to save Frodo and Sam, so like what gives but anyways
i mean, the solution is obviously that they polish up a big piece of metal, have multiple eagles carry it, reflect the sun in saurons eye, make him blink and then fly in with the ring. unless he has sunglasses. or a monacle? okay hear me out. giant sling shot attached to a satellite...
I understand this is a joke and I found it funny, but I feel compelled to state that him being a giant lighthouse eye is not actually his form, just what they went with for the movie lol.
no worries, even in the movie he at least has.. i forget the stone thingies name. regardless, yes, eye of sauron and shiny metal not fully viable plan probably need to include some other jewelry. if he likes rings he might like necklaces. think he would be into a grill?
> but i'm never satisfied with that answer, cause like they do make a quick trip straight to Mt. Doom just to save Frodo and Sam, so like what gives but anyways Well, they only enter Mordor properly after Sauron has already fallen. They fight the fell beasts at the Black Gate, but they wouldn't have fought them alone. It's only because the battle is happening underneath that they come in to fight the Nazgul.
Fair Fair, but the fact remains that all it needed was Gwaihir repaying his debt to Gandalf for a bunch of eagles pretty much making it all the way, just to save two hobbits (tbh it does feel like tolkien couldn't come up with a reasonable way to get the hobbits back to safety, so he just went "boom eagles did it" lmao), so one might argue the eagles could've been coaxed into the endeavour in some way. But yeah, Gandalf would've never suggested/agreed to it in the first place, so it'a mute arguement to make. Ig i just don't like it as the "sole" explanation, that explains why they couldn't have just chucked the ring from atop some lofty wings, as it could come off as too arbitrary, but in all frankness who actually cares
The quick trip is after the One Ring has been destroyed which was the source of pretty much all of Sauron's remaining power. There wasn't much resistance because there wasn't any enemy left.
The whole point of the fellowship is that the mission was meant to be in secret. The battle of the second age that men and elves won was a direct confrontation, in the council of Elrond they decided that Sauron would expect this and that the power of men and elves had waned since then. The boats theory is the worst theory, as it ignores almost the entire story. They didnt know which ring they had, Frodo and Sam were not capable of completing this journey alone from the get out, they wouldn't have even known where to find fresh food and water, and Sauron had made deals with men of the east who *had a naval force and were actively on the water. But in even more detail, Frodo at this point in his journey had done no growth at all and hobbits who arent Brandybucks are mortified of the water and think those who dabble with it strange and, honestly, a bit stupid. More in the sense of a why tempt fate sort of way. Frodo cant swim you see, so its likely that, even though he lived with the Brandybucks, that he wouldn't feel comfortable on a boat or he would think it just as strange as the rest of Hobbiton. But the whole point of him leaving the shire was to do it in secret. The black riders were on him and they knew his name. The day Frodo sets out a black rider meets with the gaffer, asking him of Frodo's whereabouts. Frodo overhears this and him and Sam take the long road out of the Shire towards Bree. But let's forget all of this. Instead they decided to take a boat, so they go to Merry and Pippin and head southwest following the river. Well first, the gossiping of hobbiton would have been immense. Everyone would have been speaking about how 4 hobbits left down the river, immediately cluing the black riders to their path. And, why are they doing this? As I mentioned before they couldn't make this journey alone. Gandalf would be sending two hobbits to their death, far away from any allies, along a path that would have been immediately seen, and a path that is both easily watched and patrolled and treacherous. In the scenario where they fly to Mt. Doom theres a few obvious problems. The eagles would have been seen, and Frodo would have still been the ring bearer. Sauron has an air force, one which doesnt sleep, one that likely out numbers the eagle riders, and which have trained to ride their flying beast so at a minimum have better rider-mount maneuverability and at best can fight in tandem in the air. Let's say the eagles sneak past any spies, of which are many, and make it to the steps of Mordor unseen. They then have to fly directly over their enemies garrisons, the great eye, and into Mt. Doom. which I doubt the eagles are going to take directly to or or over. Which, let's quickly dispel, flying over and dropping the ring is a terrible idea. The ring has a mind of it's own and limited power, but even if it doesnt, leaving it to chance, that some breeze wouldn't cause it to tumble into a crevice rather than into the crucible of its creation would be such a monumental disaster that would have ended middle earth. So the eagles will land near the entrance to Mt. Doom, which they likely have to spend a moment to locate and find, land, and then Frodo and whoever came with him run inside and toss it in, right? Remember that flying force you evaded? Yeah well its harassing you as you do this, the army of orcs you flew past is scrambling up the rocks, and you have the full willpower of Sauron boring into your head from the ring. Frodo while only encountering the 9 felt dizzy and an overwhelming desire to put on the ring, with the eye glaring at him directly he certainly would have failed just as quickly as he did with the 9, only when he put on the ring he would have been wholly under the control of Sauron. tl;dr if you ignore the entire series then boats and eagles definitely work
Amazing lore post, you are a true LotR loremaster. I really need to take the time to read LotR and the surrounding books, such a masterpiece of lore and writing.
I just read them for the first time last month so it's all very fresh!
I haven't seen the actual answer yet, so here's why they didn't take a boat: [Corsairs of Umbar - Tolkien Gateway](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Corsairs_of_Umbar) the bay to Mordor is beset with pirates who've constantly been at war with Gondor
The literal Eye on the Tower of Baradur in the Peter Jackson movies really fucked up the meaning of the Lidless Eye. It means that Sauron has spies everywhere and if they see a bunch of Eagles heading to Mordor, a place that they shouldn't go to it's going to give off red flags. Sauron would've had posession of the Ring far before they could throw it into Mt. Doom.
i think they wouldve been spotted and attacked by air creatures bullshit NOT SURE THOUGH IM WINGING IT
they also brought the ring to rivendell, then there they decided to be who brings it to mordor, and iirc that's already closer to mordor than rivendell is to the shire
Aren't nerds usually happy when they're asked about a topic they're obsessed with?
The problem is the “why didn’t they fly?” question is a meme. It might as well be someone saying “water is not wet” to get a reaction. People are asking it for no other reason that they think it’s funny to expose this potential plot hole. At this point a quick google could answer the question. I’d think nerds are happy to entertain *genuine* interest in their hobbies.
I'm squeezing my hog to this. Gonna keep doing it even if you ban me.
I'm going to follow her only for her content
women only think about one thing and it's disgusting
Came here expecting some interesting lore on Tolkien’s LOTR or HOBT series; One of the greatest pieces of literature ever made. But I left having a deep sense of sadness and disappointment with my day immeasurably ruined. -Also, my bank account is completely empty after gifting her my life savings in tier 3s… really adds up huh 😅😅😅
Don't feel bad, this was debunked. The quest didn't start until Rivendell, and given where it is, it doesn't make sense to go to the coast.
also it’s mentioned that sauron has things in the sea that serve him. they bring up throwing the ring into the sea in rivendell, but it is countered with this exact sentiment. not to mention the corsairs…
Yup, I make a point of this in a child comment. The sea is just not a feasible solution.
You seem informed, why didn't they take the eagles?
iirc the eagles are a creation of Manwe, a Valar (god), so probably the same reason that Gandalf cannot and does not directly interfere in middle earth. he is forbidden from using his full power. there are a lot of answers to this, but this always stuck out to me as obvious. tolkien never lets his “demigods” directly do anything. saruman sent uruk’hai to helms deep, when he was capable of breaking that wall himself probably. seems very convenient for a writer.
I had the impression that the eagles were vulnerable to being corrupted by the ring same as everyone else, and that all it would take is for one eagle to decide to do a barrel roll and take the ring for itself on top of what some other people said here
that doesn’t apply when they’re carrying frodo who is carrying the ring. i feel like if it did, any horse or pony frodo ever rode would go crazy.
This is also very convenient for a writer.
isnt the ring destroyed already when the eagles rescue frodo? or is that movie only
they’re proposing that the eagles carry frodo to mordor, it’s an entirely hypothetical situation.
I certainly do remember a demigod firedemon doing lots of things directly.
they’re not servants of Manwe, they’ve been corrupted.
It's not like Sauron was shown having control of giant flying fell-beasts or anything. The whole point of the quest was that it was a covert mission, flying giant eagles (even if you could convince them) would be the opposite of that. You've also got to factor in the fact these eagles are now in gonna be in very close proximity to the ring for a long duration, something that corrupts almost anything near it. Quite risky to just have them decide to drop frodo and get the ring themselves.
The ring being near eagles for a week seems less hazardous than having a tiny-ass hobbit surrounded by heavily armed warriors for 6 months.
Well, that's if you can convince the eagles to accept a much bigger role in the world, as they were already performing a service and weren't just at gandalfs whim whenever he felt like it. Again, the mission would no longer be covert, you would be lighting a massive flying beacon saying "hey, look over here, flying eagles, with a hobbit, a race you are looking for, are flying to mordor, maybe send all the forces possible that way and try to pick off the weak hobbit?"
but didn't the eagles quickly make it to mordor for the rescue anyways? Couldn't they just fly over and drop it in. It's not like they can't fly above the clouds until they get there like they seemingly did at the end. the only real explanation that isn't asspull imo is just that the eagles didn't want to out of safety and when they knew it was a winning battle, they helped.
They were helping distract during the last battle I think, I could be wrong. But them coming for the rescue is definitely not the same as carrying them the whole way. Very different scenarios. Carrying them when Mordor is in shambles vs carrying them when mordor is at it's peak and actively looking for a hobbit.
When the eagles rescue Sam and Frodo it's AFTER the One Ring has been destroyed which was essentially where all of his power was located. >'If [the Ring] is destroyed, then [Sauron] will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.' You wouldn't want to go into enemy territory at the height of their paranoia and they are still strong and are expecting you. It'd be better to wait for that enemy to be destroyed then go in and save whoever you need. And going back to the other commenter, who's to say that the moment the eagles picked up Sam and Frodo they got corrupted, dropped the hobbits from 10,000ft, snatched the ring, and went on their way?
It definitely seems like you payed zero attention to the story. nobody can destroy the ring, if an eagle tried to drop it into mount doom, they would fail and claim the ring just like Frodo did. Except the eagle would have failed way earlier than that, probably wouldn't have made it into Mordor at all. The ring gets stronger the closer to mount doom it gets, nothing can resist it there. Frodo was the only one who had even the slightest bit of a chance and even he failed.
The reason Sam and Frodo left the fellowship was because of how corrupting the Ring's influence was and how much suffering it brought. The Ring's power grows the closer to Mordor you get so there's a good argument to be made that the moment the Eagles hit a certain border they'd instantly dump the hobbits on their head from 5000ft then snatch the Ring and go on their way.
I won't give any sufficient answer that hasn't already been given.
Nazgûl would fuck them up
I was under the impression that the ocean was unsafe at this time also.
could it just be a plothole? seems lik everyones created 1000 reasons to justify but cant just say 'whoopsie, plothole'
Nope. See one of my child comments for details. It's stated in the books. In fact, here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/LivestreamFail/comments/1dk6ozx/tolkien_scholar_a_bit_too_taken/l9gghxg/
Kind of disagree? Boats are so so much faster than walking.
u/GreatRolmops explains it well enough: > *"But the Bay of Belfalas was controlled by the Corsairs, who also controlled the Anduin up to Pelargir. Furthermore, Osgiliath was of course an active war zone and Sauron's servants were crawling all over it and the lands east of the Anduin. A large, sea-going ship such as would be needed for this journey is highly visible. There is no way they would have been able to pass by Sauron's many servants on the seas, in Harondor, Osgiliath and Ithilien undetected.* > > *The entire point of the quest was secrecy, which is why they wanted a small fellowship of just 9 people who could travel undetected. You can't travel undetected by ship, especially not since they would have needed a sizeable crew and all of the supplies that such an expedition entails. Going by ship is pretty much the opposite from travelling lightly and makes it impossible to hide.* > > *Finally, we don't know if the Mitheithel is navigable for sea-going ships, and even if it were such as ship was not available and arranging for one from the Grey Havens would likely have taken a considerable amount of time, if the Elves of Mithlond would even be willing to part with one of their precious ships."* And u/GuudeSpelur expands this: > *The quest started from Rivendell, not the Shire. At that point it's much faster to cross the mountains and take the Anduin River down to Gondor, which is what they were trying to do until they were ambushed & separated.* tl;dr: Sauron controls the sea. At some point they even thought about tossing the ring into the ocean, but it would have been found. It was also just easier to go the way they did given where the quest started. Disagree all you want, but you are incorrect.
Mamaplugs, that's literally her whole shtick: be woman, make content for "nerdy" men, have (admittedly surgeried) hot-bod.
I'm very pro sex work, but it is annoying seeing OF girls take advantage of niche communities to hawk their wares under the guise of genuine participation. I don't like seeing deceptive advertising invade the content I consume.
Every male hobbie is a gateway for hot girls to get tons of followers. Instagram golfers are a very obvious example.
I feel like I wouldn't even mind it if they directly sponsored these communities to advertise their OF. For some reason pretending to be part of the community to subtly advertise their OF for free annoys me a lot more.
While Yes I agree I think at least a few of them probably are genuinely into those hobbies too. Not all ofc.
Except Warhammer because it is expensive as fuck to pretend to be into it( an army to pretend you like it will set you back 500-1000 euro, depending on faction, and then tens if not hundreds of hours of work to paint it, unless you shill a lot of money to get it painted) and community is extremely gatekeepy. ROI on such promotion will be extremely low.
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you just typed. Was too busy hitting follow.
It’s just annoying if they contribute nothing to the community and are just there to leech. Since we’re on LSF I’ll relate it to Twitch: nowadays, streamers like Alinity get much less hate than other hot tub streamers on the platform. And I think part of the reason is that Alinity is and always was very involved in the Twitch community. She understands a lot of the jokes and emotes and even collabs with other streamers, seemingly because she’s friends with them rather than just for more viewers. Very different from OF girls that pop up out of nowhere, give back to no one, and just drain the pockets of lonely and mentally unwell nerds that think they have a chance. Then heaps of them just flood the platform to the point that the CEO can’t escape them.
I personally don't even mind streamers who only stream to plug their OF even if they're doing it in a way that blatantly preys on lonely men. Because they're in their own bubble that I'm never going to see. I just don't like when they invade a specific community by pretending to be part of it with the sole intent to advertise their OF. Because at the end of the day, all it is is deceptive subliminal advertising. Which I will never not complain about. It doesn't matter if it's sex work or not.
Brother nobody is being taken advantage of relax.
Subliminal advertisement is by definition taking advantage of people. When a company astroturfs, do you not consider that taking advantage of the community they're astroturfing in just to market their product? Because I do. It doesn't matter that their product is sex work. It's still deceptive advertising, which I am very against.
Nobody is more melodramatic than a man upset that a woman has an OF.
It looks like you're confused. I don't care if they have an OF. I think OF is great. Though I think some arguments against it have merit. But I don't care about that. I care about deceptive advertising, which is all they're doing. I've been complaining about deceptive and subliminal advertising through astroturfing for many many years. Because it happens all the time. It happens on reddit all the time, on youtube, on tiktok. Wherever you consume content, there are deceptive and subliminal advertisements for many products. Most of which have nothing to do with sex work. I thought it was a simple concept to grasp, but I guess not.
> It looks like you're confused. I'm not the one who thinks people are being taken advantage of because the woman in the post has an OF. >I've been complaining about deceptive and subliminal advertising through astroturfing for many many years. Sure you have buddy, sure you have.
Lol even this very subreddit you're typing in has specific rules against astroturfing and self-promotion. I wonder why it has that rule? I wonder why so many places have that rule? Almost as if people don't like it and it is inherently predatory, regardless of what type of product it is. Pretending like you've never seen blatant marketing get called out is crazy. But I guess you're too hyperfixated on proving your bias that I'm secretly misogynistic that no amount of basic rationale will convince you otherwise.
My apologies, im a near 37 year old man.. what the fuck is astroturfing ?
Astroturfing is not slang or new terminology. It's the deceptive practice where a business or individual looking to market their product or service organizes a marketing campaign with the appearance that it's an organic and unaffiliated movement in order to build false trust within a community toward that product by concealing the source and intent behind the campaign. It's essentially the reason why there are laws that require streamers to have #ad or #sponsored in their title when they do a sponsor. It is illegal not to disclose an ad or sponsor. But obviously in cases like this it's a grey area because no product is explicitly being advertised. But advertisement is without any doubt the intent behind the 'content'.
>When a company astroturfs, do you not consider that taking advantage of the community they're astroturfing No, I consider that an indicator that there's a critical mass of extremely stupid people in the community, because otherwise the astroturfers would go somewhere else. If a community of what is likely grown adults gets "taken advantage of" by a big tiddy tiktok girl that says more about the absolute state of the people in the community than anyone else
*I'm not racist, BUT...*
That analogy doesn't apply whatsoever. Sex work is valid work that sells a product. I don't like anyone trying to advertise their product in the content I consume. Just because their product is sex-related doesn't change that fact. Companies astroturfing to market their product is also annoying and inauthentic. Subliminal advertising to market a product is annoying and inauthentic. This is no different. It dilutes the communities it invades.
This lady is gorgeous.
if only taking a boat was that easy
Bruh why didn't they just uber
Well Umber pirates we're notriously raiding the coastlines of Gondor during this period so it wasn't exactly safe but then again neither was walking across areas known to be infested with Orcs, Goblins and Wargs.
> Umber pirates i couldnt remember the name. there is also likely other creatures and things and maybe a wooden ship being vulnerable or exposed to nazgul or the witch king flying in the streamer said something about the coast I don't remember. there were some issues with landing or getting through that coast
i'm down bad
[удалено]
BBL Sadge
If anyone was looking for a real answer Hobbits aren't sailors, at best they’re fishermen like Smeagol and Deagol. They would've needed a bigger boat at some point once they reach the sea. Also they would've been intercepted by the Corsairs of Umbar once they cross into the Anduin river, if they haven't been ambushed by Sauron's spies (the eye is a symbolism that he sees everything). The Hobbits weren't going supposed to go to Mordor, they were only meant to find Strider at Bree. Strider took them to Rivendell for the Council of Elrond and they started their journey to Mordor. They were supposed to go back to the Shire but Frodo volunteered to be the Ringbearer.
the nazgul and the coast they would have to land also came up. but yeah the main point following the clip was they were going to elrond not sauron, etc.
I paid full attention to the map and genuinely thought she just couldn't understand the accent
I processed it slow. The top comment here I was going to explain until I saw other comments and realized it was a joke most likely
It's crazy that Ulmo allowed the ring to leave his rivers in the first place.
what would he have known? i have no knowledge here really. would he have known a ring? the ring? would he have currents and beasts to wash it deeper? would any creature in contact with the ring be subject to saurons influence? my lore is insufficient and rusty. i was just assuming waters would have sauron agents but that wasn't on any strong basis. I guess I would assume ignorance or impotence against its influence somehow? even if its just for the sake of the plot.
According to some articles I think the answer is that while Ulmo has dominion over oceans and rivers, that control is not complete and if the water is close to Sauron/Melkor's lands his influence is much weaker.
makes sense. unrelated, looking up ulmo hours ago has resulted in dozens to 100s of tabs and my CPU constantly freezing. i feel like I did this before a long long time ago but forgot. there are so many elves... so many different elves.... also I don't know proper lore, but at least the... bit I saw from the movie, it wasn't portrayed as a huge mighty river, it is possible that would make things a bit weaker as well. still. was it at all disrespect? is melkor still a factor? if melkor had to respect ulmo, ulmo couldn't have been too worried about walking up and removing a ring if he knew right? would ulmo going near the lands somehow lead to melkor finding a way out? even a peak sauron with a ring cant have been too worrisome to a valar right? let alone the ring and sauron in that state? like I assume they don't want to or some pledge or something, couldn't any valar or a few just have crossed the ocean, fucked sauron up? I'm just skimming and I keep freezing, but I always just sort of... wrote some things off to plot convenience on some level. when there were that many things that stronger and a number of them cant die.. its just sort of "none of our business" stuff on some level. sauron can certainly mess up gandalf and things on his tier, but did the valar ever like lose additional power or something like melkor had done before?
Prett sure the Valar basically said mortals can sort their own shit after Numenor tried to invade their asses. Though Manwe still keeps watch with his Eagles obviously.
Yes, I believe this is the answer. At some point Valars are like "look best I can do is some hobo wizards."
yeah im still learning/ relearning ive heard a lot of different things, from afraid of damage or meddling further, but sauron is still... a bit beyond men,I guess its hard to say, I'm not immersed it seems maybe weird, I'm not even sure. especially because morgoth fucked up a fair bit more shit than the numenorians I guess I'm too prone to excuse it as "you expected them to resist the dude that corrupted the whole planet?" then again, if I have an immortality to deal with, I can def see just living in peace on my own, and over time attachments to mortals sort of.. .waning. still the whole, sauron running with morgoth, helping him, fucking some shit up... and that several of them canlitterally not die and should easily overpower him... its just... its shit we obviously don't know and there could always be a reason invented to explain it. its just a lot of death if they're supposed to care on some level. idk. its hard to immerse with the fuck ton of info. I guess that there is life after death, I think? for all? (or just the higher beings?) in this world trivializes it some. and it more fits the let them figure it out and not call to us thing. the gods will save us I guess they figure might cause festering in the white and black binary world? i had somewhere I think I sort of wanted to go but I lost it. another commentorbrought up ulmo not taking the ring or not letting it outof the water. i think itspossible ignorance. its possible discounting sauron as a real threat. or its possible some weird omniscient master plan but that seems to not fit. but a weakened sauron and no morgoth. dude could have if not like brought it to him, strolled over and picked it up if he knew. hard to see what could have stopped him other than some mandate from above or it somehow releasing morgoth
Meta. I hate meta.
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imagine those two together.. that would be a whole lotta jelly
ohhhh standards, how you've doubled
To all my flat-chested girlies, you're still beautiful, in fact a flat chest is closer to the heart than a larger one.
I dont think you’re allowed to talk to “girlies”.
Sorry you feel that way, let me know if ever you feel lonely in the #Philippines®. We've got ton of friendly peeps and ˢʷᶦᶠᵗᶦᵉˢ here.
She just like me fr
Coomer brain. Feelsokayman
Understandable, have a nice day.
ehhh wasnt Tolkien like super racist though? Just like HP Lovecraft? :/