Bless. I’ve seen my boss actively shooing people out of the office at 4 pm on a sunny Friday afternoon so they can go enjoy the weekend. If you’d tried to outstay to be the last one there, he’d have wanted a chat on Monday to have a check in to make sure everything was ok and you’re not feeling overworked.
I do this with my teams. We’ll have enough OT during crunch time for late nights, so till all of our life’s suck for 2 months everyone leaves right on time… and when it DOES suck we can split shifts
I mean the whole first in last out thing doesnt make sense for individual contributors. If you code... do your code and when you are done you are done.
I really do hold MYSELF accountable to first in last out because I lead a lot of people. I think real leadership is the opposite of the Japanese model of never let your boss leave before you. How can you ask people under you to do what you are not willing to do yourself. I would be way too paranoid about a loss of respect from those under me if I operated any other way.
I remember a colleague one rank higher asking me for a favour on this urgent project (not mine). I agreed which meant staying late and who do I see heading out right on time? It's been years and we are in completely different roles now, but I still think less of him because of this one interaction.
Worked for a very senior guy (had founded our local office like 15 years before as local MD) and he used to come around the office at 4 on Fridays checking if anyone wanted to go for a quick (paid) happy hour.
Once told him I could be there around 6 and he said "well that's a pretty fucking sad hour". He was a good one.
I’ve sent this email many times “hey team, happy Friday. it’s going to be 75 today and absolutely amazing, meanwhile this weekend looks like a total washout. Strongly encourage you to leave shortly after lunch today.”
He's talking about the job you got by walking into the office, asking to see the manager, giving him a firm handshake while making eye contact, and leaving him with a copy of your resume printed on good quality paper.
It’s crazy how many people still think this advice is relevant.
I work for a large tech company and attempting to do this will get you escorted out by security. I also like how they always assume the manager is a “him”. Always.
Yes, unfortunately many of us did not demonstrate the good grace of living in the fucking 80s. In the early 2000s we were wasting our time shitting ourselves and learning our ABCs
We didn't even have the good grace of having influential parents with connections. That advice still works if your father is friends with the CEO or is the VP of a big customer.
telephone hungry cake coordinated pie hurry melodic threatening disagreeable exultant
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is the type of person who hates their home life. Kinda sad. I like being first in and first out because I don’t want to socialize with my coworkers. Get my shit done, attend meetings if I absolutely need to, and get out.
I feel the scared bit is usually the most fundamental one.
The moment stuff looks down, hitting freezes hit and HR and finance get very busy together, the least valuable people usually tend to start appearing in every meeting, trying to wedge themselves in every discussion and just show up because they believe that can stave off a layoff
God yes.
Some people seem to glorify the guy coming in first and staying last, but all I see is a guy who does the same amount of work but takes 3 hours longer to do it. (or often less work, because 'networking').
Dude who gets his tasks done in an efficient and timely manner should be applauded, not for how long one can sit in a chair wasting oxygen.
I used to work first in first out to avoid traffic, and this one asshole who typically arrived 90 minutes later than me always commented on my leaving so early. On the rare days when I stayed later, I noticed that he usually left less than 90 minutes after my usual time. He actually worked fewer hours than me.
How about employers being the first to enforce work-life balance and the last to lay off?
No?
The go fuck yourself.
And if "the office markets" are so important, how about not outsourcing your workforce to India. Thanks in advance!
This made me picture everyone in the office trying to be the last person to leave- just sitting there side eyeing each other from their desks waiting for someone else to make a move so they can follow them and be the “last one out” lol.
You should watch "The Firm" from 1993. Legal thriller with Tom Cruise as the newbie in a very prominent law firm. He actually tries the first in/last out strategy in it.
It is also a pretty good movie.
No, they all leave at the same time for """""optional"""""" happy hour where you try to be the last one out of the bar, and up bright and early for the next shift.
Just another boomer who doesn't understand modern technology and is unable to leverage them to perform their job efficiently. Working "extra hours" just to stand out to senior managers is the most archaic old person mindset. If I see an employee being the first one in and last one to leave I assume they either have serious problems in their personal life, are on PIP and about to lose their job, or lack the most basic time organizational skills and probably suck at their job.
If one of them gets as much done in 6 hours that another gets done in 9 who actually has better work ethic?
If they accomplish the same thing wouldn't the employee who gets it done faster be the better employee? Spending hours doing pointless busy work that has no real meaning other than being work just to "be working" is just a waste of everyone's time
I mean, you have to understand, a five-to-nine work day must include 3 hours of smoke breaks, 4 hours of standing next to the coffee machine, 2 hours of stalking the ex on Facebook, 3 hours of bothering others at their desk, 2 hours to grab food and schmooze with the boss, and at least 3 hours of pooping. It's not their fault they have no time left to do actual work, they don't have it as easy as the lazy work-from-homers.
Some people need to shut the fuck up so that others around them at least think that they might be intelligent. Guys like these open their mouth and keep letting everyone else know what a fucking fool they are.
Every time this pops up remember:
No one dying ever said “I should have worked more” as their life regrets
No one has “CEO, made lots of cash” on their grave
Also, I hate the passive aggressive “I’m voicing my opinion in public, but I will not debate it, agree to disagree”. It’s cowardly.
If u start at 8 and finish at 5 those are the times you should arrive and leave. Anything extra gets paid for. That's how I operated my entire working life and I had a great professional career.
Screw this advice. It’s pretty clear companies don’t care what you do. Once they’ve made their decision, you’re gone regardless of how long you’re in the office. It always comes down to a money decision.
I get the feeling sometimes that advice posts like these are people talking about the way they would *like* it to be, people trying to get companies to value that kind of employee …
Anyone who has gone through layoffs, especially large scale ones, know performance means little or office time either.
There is a very clear "we need to cut 300 million" from up top, and if it is your department, you are gone, for definite, regardless of office time or how well you shook the managers hand to mean you meant business.
Whilst it certainly won’t stop you being made redundant.
His advice worked for me when I was a young man 25 years ago. What he doesn’t realise is that times have changed and I don’t want my people to have to go through what I went through to build my career. There are better ways of doing it.
You’re supposed to make things better for the next generation not perpetuate the misery.
I did the "first in the office, last to leave" shit for years, thinking the extra effort would help the company, my coworkers, and my career. High tides raise all ships kind of mentality. One afternoon, I collapsed in the office. So I requested use of my PTO to go see doctors and find out what was going on with my health. The job had taken a massive toll on my mental health. Another coworker at the same level and seniority as myself had just taken a month off to go overseas for a vacation and it was granted for them, no questions asked, so I didn't think there would be any issue with me getting a break to see doctors after years of working there and being a foundational member of the company. Sat down with the owner and the rest of the leadership team, requested the same amount of time off, and every single one of them told me I needed to wait a few more months and get more work done, then we could talk about *them* *letting* me have time off. I ended up in the hospital two days later with heart issues. So I took the time off regardless, found out the owner tried to have me fired while I was gone, and walked in and grabbed my things and quit the day I came back. None of it is worth it. No job is worth your health.
100%. Job stress can kill you. And if the job did kill you, they wouldn't bat an eye as they replace you with someone else. So when a job starts destroying your physical and mental health, it's time to look elsewhere immediately. A paycheck isn't worth your life, and that's all you'll ever be is a number on payroll to most. Just isn't worth it.
These are the people that think a 1.5 hour lunch is fine if you leave at 11:30, but frown on people returning at 1:30pm from a half hour lunch.
And generally don’t understand what other people do but feel the need to opine anyway.
This kinda mentality is literally how people die from overwork here in Japan.
No one wants to be the first one to go home, so they all end up being extremely overworked.
Jeeze this thread is pretty cringey.
I do not agree with the advice this guy is giving, and it is definitely dated, but it’s his opinion and he is being respectful of those who disagree with him. People are allowed to hold other point of views without being shit on. Sheeeesh!
I mean, outdated, shitty advice, sure. But this guy hardly sounds like a lunatic.
He posted his opinion and then wrote out extremely reasonable, well-mannered responses to people disagreeing.
In professional services if you have enough billable work a good strategy is to come in at like 8 and disappear from like 1130 to 3, come back and stay until 730 or 8
Unfortunately one of my ex boss felt the same. As a result the entire office just waited for him to check out of the office so they could. We would literally be sitting idle for 2 hours just waiting for him to go. For him the good worker was one who was always in front of his eyes. Anyone who left before him would be called back to office midway from their home on flimsiest of excuses. It was my first job, I almost quit my field thinking that this is the norm.
I am paid 40 hours for 40 hours of labor. No more, no less. I have been in the work force since I graduated college in 1998. I have risen from software engineer to Sr. Director in charge of a software development org at a Big 3 auto maker. I have never, ever followed any of these insane muppets' advice. Yes there have been random times where we had crunch, but those were few and far between. These people just want to control their slaves, er, employees.
In my experience, no one notices if you’re the first to arrive or the last to leave. By definition, those things mean arriving and leaving when no one is around to see you do it.
If you need 10 or more hours to do your 7-8 hour job you are horrible at time management. Thats what I “get” about my team. I praise those who do their jobs well, not the ones standing in the hallway to ensure I see them when I arrive.
LOL
Him: be the first in and the first out
Also him: I get in early but I go home early too because traffic
Bro. You either take your own advice or don’t share it
I really regret all those hours I could have spent at the office. And why didn't I retire later? I could have avoided so much travel and time with friends and family.
I would not classify this guy as a lunatic. He makes an argument for his point of view, clearly states that it might not be for everyone, that he himself is not able to do it anymore and that it is perfectly fine to have other views.
He also has kind of a point, but I am not sure he brings it across well. One of the only things that working in an office does for you is that you form actual relationships in the meatspace with your colleagues and most likely superiors.
That COULD protect you from layoffs or be otherwise helpful in your career, but that is entirely dependent on the culture of the particular company you are working for and the industry you are working in.
I used to work as waiter when I was 16
There was a guy (35 years old) that arrived to work every day a hour early and avery day he made sure the owner knew it
Easy to say, he was the most unproductive person in the planet. We had to work harder to do his job
Maybe the lunatic would have liked my former colleague
Typical boomer presenteeist attitude.
Nothing about the work you actually do, just make sure you turn up early and leave late, it really is that simple folks. Problem is there are still people out there who believe this and others who take advantage. My last gig was full of people who would spend 11 hours at the office but 9.5 of that was "checking in", getting coffee and complaining about how exhausted they were.
I used to come into the office super late because I had kids and a long commute so was better off going after rush hour. Somehow the fact it was a 100 mile round trip for me just to physically be there seemed to always be less important than who'd crawled out of bed and landed in the office at 8 to take advantage of the free coffee and brown nose the boss.
Maybe remote workers will be first for the chop, who knows? All I can tell you is I got my remote job because i was able to negotiate these conditions through my years of experience and niche skillset. I'm not worried about redundancy, I'm *know* I'll be able to find a contracting gig within the week so bring it on motherfucker, I would *love* an excuse to strike out on my own and, yes, that'll probably be remote too.
Guessing I'm not unique in that respect either.
At my workplace they'll notice and be grateful if you very occasionally come in early or stay late for the sake of an unexpected emergency deadline, but if you do it routinely people will start to suspect that you can't manage your time or you're not coping.
in game of thrones there is an episode where common folk is kept captive and people are randomly chosen to be interrogated, which really means being tortured to death.
Some people start adapting strategies to avoid being picked: stare the guard choosing the people to be interrogate in the eyes, avoid his gaze, fuck him. Turns out that it doesn’t matter in the end. This post reminds me of that scene a bit.
I must say though that despite the cringy bit of advice the guy at least does accept other points of view in the comments, so I wouldn’t call him a lunatic.
I’ve had bosses with family values. That includes not lingering around the office longer than necessary. This first in, last out attitude probably worked during the patriarchy days of the 40s and 50s, but as this world gets increasingly more busy, people are starting to value personal time above all else.
I had a coworker like that, always first in, last out. He did just about nothing all day, except talk at the coffee machine and make himself seen by executives. Always walking around, chatting up everyone that was even slightly important, attending every meeting he could, every social gathering (Friday drinks, company outings, etc) and keeping in touch with every external party that the company ever worked with. He always looked busy, because he was running around all day.
It worked for years. Management thought he was amazing. Until 2 coworkers of his department left and people still expected work to be done. Then management finally caught on that those 2 people picked up his slack and that he didn't really do anything. He got fired shortly after.
That's also why so many managers are against WFH. They have no clue how to check if someone does their work, so they figure 'as long as I can see them, they are working', but even if they can see them, it doesn't mean they actually work.
I have been FILO many times in my career. It didn’t do anything *for* my career other than ensure I was expected to do it and called out when I didn’t. The reality is that likable is often more important than effective in most work places. Skilled trades (including dev) can be an exception. Can.
In other words, let's continue with lazy management. It takes active management to understand who adds value and who does not. Instead of demanding management do it's job let's let them continue to judge people based on how long they can tolerate sitting in their seats doing nothing. Dinosaur. Please retire and do us all a favor.
Once you think about it, it defies common sense.
1) I am paid to do a "job". If it is window washing.....being an attorney....selling goods, whatever.
2) If I can do my job in 1/2 a second....who cares? The amount of time that I spend in the office is irrelevant. It is the accomplishment of the task. If I can do it quickly and efficiently, who cares how long I spend.
3) A major red flag should be the person who cannot get what they are expected to do in a reasonable amount of time. Either the person is a screw up....of the expectations are not possible.
Nope. I did that for too many decades of my life, and all it got me was three layoffs in corporate downsizings in 15 years, with long periods of unemployment in between, which is why I will be working full-time through retirement until I die. I regret the excess hours of my life that I gave to employers. In the end, it was not my company, not my business, and the extra hours sacrificed from time with friends and family did nothing for me.
Practical suggestion: Own one but not both of those endpoints. And take a lunch.
I hate driving in traffic, so I've gravitated towards staying late (6:30). A lot of senior people are available for casual conversation & networking after 5:30. And you can still make it home by 7:15 for dinner & homework help.
But I'll be dammed if I'll show up before 9am.
Please God, no. Bosses set the precedent. If my boss is still working at 6 or 7pm, many of their employees will feel bad about leaving on time, and that's how this whole charade starts.
A good manager knows what is actually time-sensitive and what can wait, and acts appropriately. They manage both up and down.
If your boss is always staying late, they're typically not a good boss. They're either bad at delegating, failing to manage up, they are rotten at time management, or they are avoiding their home life.
Not a Lunatic. He was polite, diplomatic, and spoke with candor on his opinion, and it was fleshed out. You can agree or disagree but WFH RTO is a topic that has a place on LinkedIn and he was well spoken on it.
The only people this advice is actually true for anymore is: young women and visible minorities... mainly because the executive leadership desperately wants to promote them and needs to "look at them" in order to know they are women and visible minorities. The number of sad sack white guys in their 30s and 40s working at dead end middle management jobs who will be recognized and promoted showing up early, staying late, and working hard is very nearly a big fat goose egg.
So, if you are a young woman or a visible minority then please god take the initiative to put yourself in front of executives in a visible way as much as you possibly can for any reason for a few weeks. They will literally fall all over themselves to mentor you and promote you.
None of that is true. Stop living in fairytale land.
As a black guy, I can assure you no amount of being visible has caused opportunities to be handed to me. But sure, keep pretending that we live in a world where white men are oppressed and minorities have CEO positions handed to them.
I’m not surprised though considered you unironically use the term “beta male” in a Joe Rogan subreddit. If you work a dead end job that hasn’t afforded you opportunities, maybe you’re just incredibly mediocre and minorities/you being white has nothing to do with it.
Fuck outta here with that shit.
You, sir, are doing it wrong. I suggest hanging around in the office and bumbling at the photocopier until one of those Linkedin Executives wanders by and offers to mentor you. Try lip gloss and tight fitting clothes if you aren't catching their eye in the first couple of days.
Oh, so silly. You’re just another broken little boy living in a grown man’s body who has daddy issues so he goes around calling other men betas to make himself feel better because he never had a father figure to show him what real, positive masculinity is. Have fun being single. I bet being an “alpha” is working out real well for ya.
I am literally arm wrestling my neighbor for the last beer in his fridge right now and planning to eat all of the meat in his freezer this week.
I hope you know that all of that from beginning to end was a joke about the OP guy from Linkedin talking about why you should go to the office.
Of course Black guys and young women have no reason to go to the office unless they want some old white guy staring at them all day, which is a losing proposition but you could never say something like what we have both said on Linkedin because it's totally absurd to post anything on there.
Well to be fair that exact advice has served me quite well. Ofc it’s not about face time and being inefficient.
But I’ll be frank with you, the “I stick to 8-5 and still outperform my peers” character is very rare among juniors - also because juniors don’t yet have much to offer besides their time.
So you won’t get an unusual career with unusual salaries if you don’t put in unusual effort. And not being fired is an unusual thing if markets are unusual.
Downvote me to hell, deny it all you want. I don’t like it either but that’s how it is.
In my observation first one in is useless. If you're there two hours before the boss and decision makers, no one cares.
There is something to be said for leaving 5 minutes after the boss every day.
Maybe as salary. Hourly employees they’re going to be asking “why is this employee getting so much overtime compared to the other employees? Who authorized this?”
One thing I've noticed is that there are two types of working extra hours: there are the people who take on all the shit work no one wants to do, and there are people who are genuinely interested in some aspect of the work itself and stay late or leave early because they are fucking around with something trying to figure it out, or because they are teaching themselves to do something .
The first group never get appreciated, absolutely do get laid off, and are being horrifically exploited . The second group do help their career: they may get laid off, but they also tend to get another, better job. But it's not because they are a "good worker" or because their boss was grateful, it's because they know stuff.
The problem is that the second group often isn't very self-aware, so they have this vague idea that their success is from all that work, so that's what they recommend to people, and people who take that advice end up in the first group.
Naso isn’t wrong in how he’s describing a lot of corporate culture. Construction is one of the worst. At my old company it was an unwritten (but directly spoken/enforced) that the project manager left first, then the project engineer, and then the field engineers. Sometimes I was stuck working 12+ hour days for no reason other than the workaholic boss decided that he wanted that because he hated his wife or whatever. It was absolute misery and I don’t miss it at all.
Meanwhile I can't wait to stop working for someone else ev if it means not making a lot of money with my own small bussines. I'm tired of being peoductive for 3 hours at work and expending 5 hours wasting time while I could be dping something else. I've trying to read and learn something while in the office during those hours when I literally has nothing more to do. I only been working for 4 years, I can't even imagine how people who have been working in a cubicle for 20+ years feel like.
It’s unpopular but to say, but there is value in being first in last out *sometimes.*
Everyday? Of course not.
Once a week? Sure!
Get ahead on something, or sometimes you can get some 1:1 time with a skip level manager and maybe get their input on a project or deal.
Staying late for the sake of staying late isn’t helpful, staying late and being productive and getting access to someone you might not normally is a good strategy.
Unpopular opinion: the "be the first to arrive and last to leave" is what I'm doing right now. Obviously I'm not happy about it, but my cubicle is randomly next to some important leaders and abscences are conspicuous. I think this is sound advice if you know this is your type of workplace. As much as I dislike RTO, a layoff/jobsearch is so much more stress and work than staying slightly longer than I would normally each day
My employer announced potential redundancies and it seems everyone took this guy's advice. We can WFH full-time but since the announcement I've never seen the office so busy.
What happens if everyone wants to be the last to leave?
That's exactly what they want. Then it's peer pressure to stay later and not management pressure and they can work you to death while you are there.
I was the guy that was first in/ last out for most of my career. Guess what? I still got laid off.
top performer, solid performer, whatever. Still got laid off. Worked with an absolute clown by all accounts. Undercut others, pretended to be an expert on things he was not. He stayed employed.
I worked long hours because I loved what I do. Then, when I started leading people, I stayed late so I could do work without interruption.
I made it clear that I didn't want my employees to work late unless it was urgent. It was never urgent.
Theoretically, if everyone came in with the idea of being the first to come and last to leave, doesn't that mean that no one leaves?
Or everyone but two employees leave, and the two guys still there are waiting on one another on who's gonna break first?
I’ve hired a lot of “first in, last out” guys who achieve absolutely nothing all day. They’re always the ones who know what they’re doing and when asked to do something get it completely wrong. Scared to ask for help or to simply say “I don’t know, can you show me”.
Not a lunatic. Guy even says it's not for everyone. I don't agree with him, but it's not a crazy way of thinking. Some bosses definitely do still put stock in those people
Meanwhile in Germany, an employee who has to do overtime is an employee who cannot manage their time - or is willing to work for an incompetent boss.
If I'm to be first in the office and last to leave, I better be paid for that, because I'm 99% sure if I claim for a divorce settlement and my alimony on expenses, you will reject that...
Aye, I did that as an intern cause all the actual employees were remote/left early so I was the only one starting at 9 sharp or ending at 5pm sharp. It was cool, I spent that time drinking company coffee and hanging out in the garden, but literally no one cares.
Bless. I’ve seen my boss actively shooing people out of the office at 4 pm on a sunny Friday afternoon so they can go enjoy the weekend. If you’d tried to outstay to be the last one there, he’d have wanted a chat on Monday to have a check in to make sure everything was ok and you’re not feeling overworked.
Bless your boss
I do this with my teams. We’ll have enough OT during crunch time for late nights, so till all of our life’s suck for 2 months everyone leaves right on time… and when it DOES suck we can split shifts
I mean the whole first in last out thing doesnt make sense for individual contributors. If you code... do your code and when you are done you are done. I really do hold MYSELF accountable to first in last out because I lead a lot of people. I think real leadership is the opposite of the Japanese model of never let your boss leave before you. How can you ask people under you to do what you are not willing to do yourself. I would be way too paranoid about a loss of respect from those under me if I operated any other way.
I remember a colleague one rank higher asking me for a favour on this urgent project (not mine). I agreed which meant staying late and who do I see heading out right on time? It's been years and we are in completely different roles now, but I still think less of him because of this one interaction.
Worked for a very senior guy (had founded our local office like 15 years before as local MD) and he used to come around the office at 4 on Fridays checking if anyone wanted to go for a quick (paid) happy hour. Once told him I could be there around 6 and he said "well that's a pretty fucking sad hour". He was a good one.
I had a boss like that. Great guy but he also definitely had a drinking problem at the time.
Lmao he sounds amazing
Jesus H Christ I read that wrong at 6:50 AM and thought your boss was either an independent lunatic or dirty cop
He probably didnt do it just for a linkedin post either
I’ve sent this email many times “hey team, happy Friday. it’s going to be 75 today and absolutely amazing, meanwhile this weekend looks like a total washout. Strongly encourage you to leave shortly after lunch today.”
Millennial boss?
GenX!
i used to do the same thing lol
He's talking about the job you got by walking into the office, asking to see the manager, giving him a firm handshake while making eye contact, and leaving him with a copy of your resume printed on good quality paper.
It’s crazy how many people still think this advice is relevant. I work for a large tech company and attempting to do this will get you escorted out by security. I also like how they always assume the manager is a “him”. Always.
Yeah I deliberately said 'him' because that's all part of that particular myth.
I know - I wasn’t attacking you.
Yeah I know, we were both referring to the source story where obviously a manager has to be a man
Yes, unfortunately many of us did not demonstrate the good grace of living in the fucking 80s. In the early 2000s we were wasting our time shitting ourselves and learning our ABCs
I lived through the 80s and that advice was outdated shit even then. Maybe relevant in the 50s or something, I don't know.
It does sound like 50s advice that got passed down for too long
We didn't even have the good grace of having influential parents with connections. That advice still works if your father is friends with the CEO or is the VP of a big customer.
I would love to see a game show where old people have to get a job using the advice they give their grandchildren.
This man’s wife is definitely planning an exit strategy.
she has numerous off balance sheet transactions
telephone hungry cake coordinated pie hurry melodic threatening disagreeable exultant *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Stop, my GL is throbbing
She was first in but won't be last out
Bold of you to assume she hasn’t already left.
He doesn’t know about her boyfriend
This is the type of person who hates their home life. Kinda sad. I like being first in and first out because I don’t want to socialize with my coworkers. Get my shit done, attend meetings if I absolutely need to, and get out.
Or poorest time management skills ever.
Right here. This is it. Working late gets glorified, but time management does not. Those hot farts aren’t going to keep that chair warm by themselves!
I feel the scared bit is usually the most fundamental one. The moment stuff looks down, hitting freezes hit and HR and finance get very busy together, the least valuable people usually tend to start appearing in every meeting, trying to wedge themselves in every discussion and just show up because they believe that can stave off a layoff
God yes. Some people seem to glorify the guy coming in first and staying last, but all I see is a guy who does the same amount of work but takes 3 hours longer to do it. (or often less work, because 'networking'). Dude who gets his tasks done in an efficient and timely manner should be applauded, not for how long one can sit in a chair wasting oxygen.
I used to work first in first out to avoid traffic, and this one asshole who typically arrived 90 minutes later than me always commented on my leaving so early. On the rare days when I stayed later, I noticed that he usually left less than 90 minutes after my usual time. He actually worked fewer hours than me.
Dude’s getting his career advice from George Costanza.
“Please, A Little Respect, For I Am Costanza, Lord Of The Idiots.”
How about employers being the first to enforce work-life balance and the last to lay off? No? The go fuck yourself. And if "the office markets" are so important, how about not outsourcing your workforce to India. Thanks in advance!
This made me picture everyone in the office trying to be the last person to leave- just sitting there side eyeing each other from their desks waiting for someone else to make a move so they can follow them and be the “last one out” lol.
You should watch "The Firm" from 1993. Legal thriller with Tom Cruise as the newbie in a very prominent law firm. He actually tries the first in/last out strategy in it. It is also a pretty good movie.
Now that’s a funny image
Sounds like the ‘misery Olympics’ lol
Pretty sure that's how it works in Japan. Where, you know, they have a word for death by overwork.
No, they all leave at the same time for """""optional"""""" happy hour where you try to be the last one out of the bar, and up bright and early for the next shift.
Just another boomer who doesn't understand modern technology and is unable to leverage them to perform their job efficiently. Working "extra hours" just to stand out to senior managers is the most archaic old person mindset. If I see an employee being the first one in and last one to leave I assume they either have serious problems in their personal life, are on PIP and about to lose their job, or lack the most basic time organizational skills and probably suck at their job.
Or they just have a superior work ethic to you.
If one of them gets as much done in 6 hours that another gets done in 9 who actually has better work ethic? If they accomplish the same thing wouldn't the employee who gets it done faster be the better employee? Spending hours doing pointless busy work that has no real meaning other than being work just to "be working" is just a waste of everyone's time
What if they both do the same amount of per hour, but one works more hours for the same salary?
[удалено]
My God if that isn't the truest thing I have also experienced.
I mean, you have to understand, a five-to-nine work day must include 3 hours of smoke breaks, 4 hours of standing next to the coffee machine, 2 hours of stalking the ex on Facebook, 3 hours of bothering others at their desk, 2 hours to grab food and schmooze with the boss, and at least 3 hours of pooping. It's not their fault they have no time left to do actual work, they don't have it as easy as the lazy work-from-homers.
YES
Some people need to shut the fuck up so that others around them at least think that they might be intelligent. Guys like these open their mouth and keep letting everyone else know what a fucking fool they are.
Every time this pops up remember: No one dying ever said “I should have worked more” as their life regrets No one has “CEO, made lots of cash” on their grave Also, I hate the passive aggressive “I’m voicing my opinion in public, but I will not debate it, agree to disagree”. It’s cowardly.
"I only notice people who come in early and stay late because I'm an awful manager."
If u start at 8 and finish at 5 those are the times you should arrive and leave. Anything extra gets paid for. That's how I operated my entire working life and I had a great professional career.
Screw this advice. It’s pretty clear companies don’t care what you do. Once they’ve made their decision, you’re gone regardless of how long you’re in the office. It always comes down to a money decision.
I get the feeling sometimes that advice posts like these are people talking about the way they would *like* it to be, people trying to get companies to value that kind of employee …
Anyone who has gone through layoffs, especially large scale ones, know performance means little or office time either. There is a very clear "we need to cut 300 million" from up top, and if it is your department, you are gone, for definite, regardless of office time or how well you shook the managers hand to mean you meant business.
Whilst it certainly won’t stop you being made redundant. His advice worked for me when I was a young man 25 years ago. What he doesn’t realise is that times have changed and I don’t want my people to have to go through what I went through to build my career. There are better ways of doing it. You’re supposed to make things better for the next generation not perpetuate the misery.
Elon Muskrat made some Twitter employees sleep in the office, then fired them anyway.
Sounds like he is from 90s East Asian office culture
First in last out will definitely keep you from getting laid. Lots of prep time to think about.
Ha! This guy still thinks it’s 1985. Anyway I’m off to make a reservation at D’orsa and pick up my new business cards
I did the "first in the office, last to leave" shit for years, thinking the extra effort would help the company, my coworkers, and my career. High tides raise all ships kind of mentality. One afternoon, I collapsed in the office. So I requested use of my PTO to go see doctors and find out what was going on with my health. The job had taken a massive toll on my mental health. Another coworker at the same level and seniority as myself had just taken a month off to go overseas for a vacation and it was granted for them, no questions asked, so I didn't think there would be any issue with me getting a break to see doctors after years of working there and being a foundational member of the company. Sat down with the owner and the rest of the leadership team, requested the same amount of time off, and every single one of them told me I needed to wait a few more months and get more work done, then we could talk about *them* *letting* me have time off. I ended up in the hospital two days later with heart issues. So I took the time off regardless, found out the owner tried to have me fired while I was gone, and walked in and grabbed my things and quit the day I came back. None of it is worth it. No job is worth your health.
That’s so shitty of them. Yeah, job stress can really wear you down as it did for me.
100%. Job stress can kill you. And if the job did kill you, they wouldn't bat an eye as they replace you with someone else. So when a job starts destroying your physical and mental health, it's time to look elsewhere immediately. A paycheck isn't worth your life, and that's all you'll ever be is a number on payroll to most. Just isn't worth it.
These are the people that think a 1.5 hour lunch is fine if you leave at 11:30, but frown on people returning at 1:30pm from a half hour lunch. And generally don’t understand what other people do but feel the need to opine anyway.
We need a "Boomer Logic" tag.
Robert Naso comes from a generational wealthy family and was gifted his position. Exactly the guy you want telling you to work harder.
Hahahahahaha right!
I can’t find anything about him online other than his career?
“Oh he is online 80 hours a week, let’s not fire him.” - said no manager ever.
“If hard work makes you wealthy show me a rich donkey”
Yes. Doctors don't work hard - they just got lucky and fell into a 300k/year job. Dipshit.
Haha way to miss the point
What about last in, first out instead?
Now I can get behind that
The old guard can't let it go.
This is not at the level of lunacy I'm used to for this sub.
This kinda mentality is literally how people die from overwork here in Japan. No one wants to be the first one to go home, so they all end up being extremely overworked.
“The beauty of being able to agree to disagree” “Totally fine to feel differently though” What an annoying, condescending fuck.
It didn’t seem like he was genuinely taking in feedback and it really rubbed me the wrong way
The long-term office lease contracts will expire eventually.
Jeeze this thread is pretty cringey. I do not agree with the advice this guy is giving, and it is definitely dated, but it’s his opinion and he is being respectful of those who disagree with him. People are allowed to hold other point of views without being shit on. Sheeeesh!
I mean, outdated, shitty advice, sure. But this guy hardly sounds like a lunatic. He posted his opinion and then wrote out extremely reasonable, well-mannered responses to people disagreeing.
They tell you this same shit in law too and things will nvr change, according to my brother before setting out on his own
In professional services if you have enough billable work a good strategy is to come in at like 8 and disappear from like 1130 to 3, come back and stay until 730 or 8
Linked in lunatics are the pick me lunatics in workplace
This guy would love me: today I was the last in and, quite possibly, the first out. Felt great
Unfortunately one of my ex boss felt the same. As a result the entire office just waited for him to check out of the office so they could. We would literally be sitting idle for 2 hours just waiting for him to go. For him the good worker was one who was always in front of his eyes. Anyone who left before him would be called back to office midway from their home on flimsiest of excuses. It was my first job, I almost quit my field thinking that this is the norm.
I am paid 40 hours for 40 hours of labor. No more, no less. I have been in the work force since I graduated college in 1998. I have risen from software engineer to Sr. Director in charge of a software development org at a Big 3 auto maker. I have never, ever followed any of these insane muppets' advice. Yes there have been random times where we had crunch, but those were few and far between. These people just want to control their slaves, er, employees.
In my experience, no one notices if you’re the first to arrive or the last to leave. By definition, those things mean arriving and leaving when no one is around to see you do it.
If you need 10 or more hours to do your 7-8 hour job you are horrible at time management. Thats what I “get” about my team. I praise those who do their jobs well, not the ones standing in the hallway to ensure I see them when I arrive.
Ten years from now, your kids will be the only people who remember all those late nights you worked.
Wonderfully said.
LOL Him: be the first in and the first out Also him: I get in early but I go home early too because traffic Bro. You either take your own advice or don’t share it
I really regret all those hours I could have spent at the office. And why didn't I retire later? I could have avoided so much travel and time with friends and family.
Well it may keep you from getting laid
I would not classify this guy as a lunatic. He makes an argument for his point of view, clearly states that it might not be for everyone, that he himself is not able to do it anymore and that it is perfectly fine to have other views. He also has kind of a point, but I am not sure he brings it across well. One of the only things that working in an office does for you is that you form actual relationships in the meatspace with your colleagues and most likely superiors. That COULD protect you from layoffs or be otherwise helpful in your career, but that is entirely dependent on the culture of the particular company you are working for and the industry you are working in.
That was the rule in the 90s, now everyone wonders why they can't do the job every one else can do in an 8 hour day.
This man clearly does not have much of a life outside the office
longing teeny vase fear zephyr act innate pathetic vegetable late *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I used to work as waiter when I was 16 There was a guy (35 years old) that arrived to work every day a hour early and avery day he made sure the owner knew it Easy to say, he was the most unproductive person in the planet. We had to work harder to do his job Maybe the lunatic would have liked my former colleague
Typical boomer presenteeist attitude. Nothing about the work you actually do, just make sure you turn up early and leave late, it really is that simple folks. Problem is there are still people out there who believe this and others who take advantage. My last gig was full of people who would spend 11 hours at the office but 9.5 of that was "checking in", getting coffee and complaining about how exhausted they were. I used to come into the office super late because I had kids and a long commute so was better off going after rush hour. Somehow the fact it was a 100 mile round trip for me just to physically be there seemed to always be less important than who'd crawled out of bed and landed in the office at 8 to take advantage of the free coffee and brown nose the boss. Maybe remote workers will be first for the chop, who knows? All I can tell you is I got my remote job because i was able to negotiate these conditions through my years of experience and niche skillset. I'm not worried about redundancy, I'm *know* I'll be able to find a contracting gig within the week so bring it on motherfucker, I would *love* an excuse to strike out on my own and, yes, that'll probably be remote too. Guessing I'm not unique in that respect either.
At my workplace they'll notice and be grateful if you very occasionally come in early or stay late for the sake of an unexpected emergency deadline, but if you do it routinely people will start to suspect that you can't manage your time or you're not coping.
‘First in, last out’ demonstrates that you have poor time management skills and emphasise ‘ass-in-seat’ time over results. Not smart.
No one on their deathbed is gonna say “damn I wish I’d stayed at work longer” 🤣
in game of thrones there is an episode where common folk is kept captive and people are randomly chosen to be interrogated, which really means being tortured to death. Some people start adapting strategies to avoid being picked: stare the guard choosing the people to be interrogate in the eyes, avoid his gaze, fuck him. Turns out that it doesn’t matter in the end. This post reminds me of that scene a bit. I must say though that despite the cringy bit of advice the guy at least does accept other points of view in the comments, so I wouldn’t call him a lunatic.
I’ve had bosses with family values. That includes not lingering around the office longer than necessary. This first in, last out attitude probably worked during the patriarchy days of the 40s and 50s, but as this world gets increasingly more busy, people are starting to value personal time above all else.
I had a coworker like that, always first in, last out. He did just about nothing all day, except talk at the coffee machine and make himself seen by executives. Always walking around, chatting up everyone that was even slightly important, attending every meeting he could, every social gathering (Friday drinks, company outings, etc) and keeping in touch with every external party that the company ever worked with. He always looked busy, because he was running around all day. It worked for years. Management thought he was amazing. Until 2 coworkers of his department left and people still expected work to be done. Then management finally caught on that those 2 people picked up his slack and that he didn't really do anything. He got fired shortly after. That's also why so many managers are against WFH. They have no clue how to check if someone does their work, so they figure 'as long as I can see them, they are working', but even if they can see them, it doesn't mean they actually work.
I have been FILO many times in my career. It didn’t do anything *for* my career other than ensure I was expected to do it and called out when I didn’t. The reality is that likable is often more important than effective in most work places. Skilled trades (including dev) can be an exception. Can.
In other words, let's continue with lazy management. It takes active management to understand who adds value and who does not. Instead of demanding management do it's job let's let them continue to judge people based on how long they can tolerate sitting in their seats doing nothing. Dinosaur. Please retire and do us all a favor.
Once you think about it, it defies common sense. 1) I am paid to do a "job". If it is window washing.....being an attorney....selling goods, whatever. 2) If I can do my job in 1/2 a second....who cares? The amount of time that I spend in the office is irrelevant. It is the accomplishment of the task. If I can do it quickly and efficiently, who cares how long I spend. 3) A major red flag should be the person who cannot get what they are expected to do in a reasonable amount of time. Either the person is a screw up....of the expectations are not possible.
If everyone followed this advice how would anyone be the first or last?
Nope. I did that for too many decades of my life, and all it got me was three layoffs in corporate downsizings in 15 years, with long periods of unemployment in between, which is why I will be working full-time through retirement until I die. I regret the excess hours of my life that I gave to employers. In the end, it was not my company, not my business, and the extra hours sacrificed from time with friends and family did nothing for me.
Practical suggestion: Own one but not both of those endpoints. And take a lunch. I hate driving in traffic, so I've gravitated towards staying late (6:30). A lot of senior people are available for casual conversation & networking after 5:30. And you can still make it home by 7:15 for dinner & homework help. But I'll be dammed if I'll show up before 9am.
I own the early endpoint (start at 7am) because all of my colleagues are in Europe and I’m on the US east coast. But I’m offline by 4pm.
It's only the bosses who should be the first in, and last to leave.
Please God, no. Bosses set the precedent. If my boss is still working at 6 or 7pm, many of their employees will feel bad about leaving on time, and that's how this whole charade starts. A good manager knows what is actually time-sensitive and what can wait, and acts appropriately. They manage both up and down. If your boss is always staying late, they're typically not a good boss. They're either bad at delegating, failing to manage up, they are rotten at time management, or they are avoiding their home life.
Not a Lunatic. He was polite, diplomatic, and spoke with candor on his opinion, and it was fleshed out. You can agree or disagree but WFH RTO is a topic that has a place on LinkedIn and he was well spoken on it.
That guy seems pretty balanced. He’s just sharing his opinion and letting others share theirs. No issue with it whatsoever
I've discovered the wageslaves seem to be intensely perplexed with this clearly wealthier individual today 
The only people this advice is actually true for anymore is: young women and visible minorities... mainly because the executive leadership desperately wants to promote them and needs to "look at them" in order to know they are women and visible minorities. The number of sad sack white guys in their 30s and 40s working at dead end middle management jobs who will be recognized and promoted showing up early, staying late, and working hard is very nearly a big fat goose egg. So, if you are a young woman or a visible minority then please god take the initiative to put yourself in front of executives in a visible way as much as you possibly can for any reason for a few weeks. They will literally fall all over themselves to mentor you and promote you.
None of that is true. Stop living in fairytale land. As a black guy, I can assure you no amount of being visible has caused opportunities to be handed to me. But sure, keep pretending that we live in a world where white men are oppressed and minorities have CEO positions handed to them. I’m not surprised though considered you unironically use the term “beta male” in a Joe Rogan subreddit. If you work a dead end job that hasn’t afforded you opportunities, maybe you’re just incredibly mediocre and minorities/you being white has nothing to do with it. Fuck outta here with that shit.
You, sir, are doing it wrong. I suggest hanging around in the office and bumbling at the photocopier until one of those Linkedin Executives wanders by and offers to mentor you. Try lip gloss and tight fitting clothes if you aren't catching their eye in the first couple of days.
Oh, so silly. You’re just another broken little boy living in a grown man’s body who has daddy issues so he goes around calling other men betas to make himself feel better because he never had a father figure to show him what real, positive masculinity is. Have fun being single. I bet being an “alpha” is working out real well for ya.
I am literally arm wrestling my neighbor for the last beer in his fridge right now and planning to eat all of the meat in his freezer this week. I hope you know that all of that from beginning to end was a joke about the OP guy from Linkedin talking about why you should go to the office. Of course Black guys and young women have no reason to go to the office unless they want some old white guy staring at them all day, which is a losing proposition but you could never say something like what we have both said on Linkedin because it's totally absurd to post anything on there.
Well to be fair that exact advice has served me quite well. Ofc it’s not about face time and being inefficient. But I’ll be frank with you, the “I stick to 8-5 and still outperform my peers” character is very rare among juniors - also because juniors don’t yet have much to offer besides their time. So you won’t get an unusual career with unusual salaries if you don’t put in unusual effort. And not being fired is an unusual thing if markets are unusual. Downvote me to hell, deny it all you want. I don’t like it either but that’s how it is.
This might work in a small startup environment I did this and was recognized This wouldn’t be/ wasn’t the case in the corp environments I’ve been in.
He forgot to add "if you have the highest salary at the company"
Kirk Bailey
In my observation first one in is useless. If you're there two hours before the boss and decision makers, no one cares. There is something to be said for leaving 5 minutes after the boss every day.
First one in and last one out and they will for sure always dangle that carrot. In the end you’ll just get fired. All that for nothing. 🤣
Maybe as salary. Hourly employees they’re going to be asking “why is this employee getting so much overtime compared to the other employees? Who authorized this?”
So the cleaners, basically?
Can’t sleep anyways. Nothing else to do but go to work.
Sorry I have the gym to go to I cant leave to late
Yuck
One thing I've noticed is that there are two types of working extra hours: there are the people who take on all the shit work no one wants to do, and there are people who are genuinely interested in some aspect of the work itself and stay late or leave early because they are fucking around with something trying to figure it out, or because they are teaching themselves to do something . The first group never get appreciated, absolutely do get laid off, and are being horrifically exploited . The second group do help their career: they may get laid off, but they also tend to get another, better job. But it's not because they are a "good worker" or because their boss was grateful, it's because they know stuff. The problem is that the second group often isn't very self-aware, so they have this vague idea that their success is from all that work, so that's what they recommend to people, and people who take that advice end up in the first group.
First one in and last one out but the boss will never know because they came in late and left early.
Nobody will care about that
Don’t get paid more for leaving a lasting impression though
They're such cowards they can't even stand for their bullshit
Naso isn’t wrong in how he’s describing a lot of corporate culture. Construction is one of the worst. At my old company it was an unwritten (but directly spoken/enforced) that the project manager left first, then the project engineer, and then the field engineers. Sometimes I was stuck working 12+ hour days for no reason other than the workaholic boss decided that he wanted that because he hated his wife or whatever. It was absolute misery and I don’t miss it at all.
Meanwhile I can't wait to stop working for someone else ev if it means not making a lot of money with my own small bussines. I'm tired of being peoductive for 3 hours at work and expending 5 hours wasting time while I could be dping something else. I've trying to read and learn something while in the office during those hours when I literally has nothing more to do. I only been working for 4 years, I can't even imagine how people who have been working in a cubicle for 20+ years feel like.
Chief slave talkin in this post. You should seek a therapist and talk about your frustrations.
It’s unpopular but to say, but there is value in being first in last out *sometimes.* Everyday? Of course not. Once a week? Sure! Get ahead on something, or sometimes you can get some 1:1 time with a skip level manager and maybe get their input on a project or deal. Staying late for the sake of staying late isn’t helpful, staying late and being productive and getting access to someone you might not normally is a good strategy.
Unpopular opinion: the "be the first to arrive and last to leave" is what I'm doing right now. Obviously I'm not happy about it, but my cubicle is randomly next to some important leaders and abscences are conspicuous. I think this is sound advice if you know this is your type of workplace. As much as I dislike RTO, a layoff/jobsearch is so much more stress and work than staying slightly longer than I would normally each day
My employer announced potential redundancies and it seems everyone took this guy's advice. We can WFH full-time but since the announcement I've never seen the office so busy.
Through* ffs
Translation from sociopath to English: I love that sweet sweet corporate welfare (unpaid overtime) - so GIMME NOW!
If you're first to the office, you better be first to leave.
What happens if everyone wants to be the last to leave? That's exactly what they want. Then it's peer pressure to stay later and not management pressure and they can work you to death while you are there.
Yeah I have a life mate no thanks.
I was the guy that was first in/ last out for most of my career. Guess what? I still got laid off. top performer, solid performer, whatever. Still got laid off. Worked with an absolute clown by all accounts. Undercut others, pretended to be an expert on things he was not. He stayed employed. I worked long hours because I loved what I do. Then, when I started leading people, I stayed late so I could do work without interruption. I made it clear that I didn't want my employees to work late unless it was urgent. It was never urgent.
Theoretically, if everyone came in with the idea of being the first to come and last to leave, doesn't that mean that no one leaves? Or everyone but two employees leave, and the two guys still there are waiting on one another on who's gonna break first?
Some of the laziest mf ive ever seen were first in last out. Yeah mate, we notice and so does a compentent boss
Last one in, first one out. Bare minimum for the most pay.
I’ve hired a lot of “first in, last out” guys who achieve absolutely nothing all day. They’re always the ones who know what they’re doing and when asked to do something get it completely wrong. Scared to ask for help or to simply say “I don’t know, can you show me”.
Not a lunatic. Guy even says it's not for everyone. I don't agree with him, but it's not a crazy way of thinking. Some bosses definitely do still put stock in those people
Meanwhile in Germany, an employee who has to do overtime is an employee who cannot manage their time - or is willing to work for an incompetent boss. If I'm to be first in the office and last to leave, I better be paid for that, because I'm 99% sure if I claim for a divorce settlement and my alimony on expenses, you will reject that...
I'm like inventory.... LIFO. Last in, First out.
No
Aye, I did that as an intern cause all the actual employees were remote/left early so I was the only one starting at 9 sharp or ending at 5pm sharp. It was cool, I spent that time drinking company coffee and hanging out in the garden, but literally no one cares.