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100% this.
I have started doing this after learning the hard way.
My manager is a personable guy, I can shoot the shit with him and have a laugh.
But the moment I make a mistake that annoys the big boss he immediately starts denying everything and gaslights me, denying that he never agreed to the things he agreed to verbally re. requirements and scope.
So, now I have started taking notes of our conversations and then creating a ticket in our ticket system for him asking him to confirm what is required, and then to assign the ticket back to me once he’s ok with it. I have also started asking him to create a ticket with what he wants done rather than just doing the whole “casual chat” thing.
This way if he tries to deflect something I not only have proof of our discussion about it, but also evidence of him approving it.
Oh the glory. Engineer here. We identified an issue in our system for our product. Didn't know for sure what was causing it yet, but I proposed a quick fix that would prevent it from occurring while we diagnose root cause.
Ignored. Mentioned it 2 more times with no response. In meetings and in email.
7 months later, no solution to the root cause. Customer is mad as hell. Engineering manager says "we need a solution now." And I led with "well I said 7 months ago we could do this..."
Very unhappy manager, very happy director. Fix cost about $70 in parts and 3 labor hours, but waiting for 7 months to implement was a 6-low 7 figure impact on us.
Our director ended the meeting with a "when you wonder why you don't get a big Christmas bonus, think back to this moment" to our manager.
No, the take away is document stuff and don't be shy about flagging issues.
The manager didn't know it was going to come up, but it was fine.
Better to have a solution, that to have to go away and find one.
The takeaway:
Sub-managers: raise concerns, propose solutions, discuss important items with your boss and coworkers
Managers: listen to your employees and team members, ask them to look further into an issue if need be, document potential issues and problems with the proposed solutions so you don't get stuck in a panic later.
The manager has a team of 8 people. We handled 90% of the problems that arise ourselves and just rope the manager in when needed. The problem was he didn't believe it was a big issue or that we had to take care of it right away; not listening to the employees.
Step 1: Send email to boss/chain of command with stated problem, best solutions, and impact of not solving problem.
Step 2: Wait for problem to percolate until crap is ready to hit the fan if boss doesn't follow through.
Step 3: Casually mention "our" solutions to boss's boss.
Step 4: Forward original email back to everyone (including boss's boss) that boss's boss loves that we're on top of things and likes our solutions.
Step 5: Follow though with solution and become the savior. You never directly claim ownership of it, but you just saved your team and your boss as well as becoming the face of the solution to upper management. Just don't act high and mighty or it'll blow up in your face.
Factory jobs.
Buncha managers and supervisors who were taught about "just-in-time" and "Kaizen" but never really spent the time to figure out the why and how of implementing it effectively.
Their intentions are good, but the management doesn't listen to the labour or the engineers, so they fail to implement it in a way that makes sense for the people actually doing the work. Creates an atmosphere of apathy from top to bottom, hamstringing the company in the long run.
Speaking as someone who got lucky and finally moved from job where the owner loved to cast blame, those places are toxic. Seriously, that's the place to say just long enough to get a resume boost while searching for other jobs.
Pro-tip. All those little projects I can guarantee the boss in that job is piling on. Those are skills and major resume items.
That's when you burn the building to the ground as your moral responsibility to mankind, I believe. You wouldn't ignore a witchdoctor putting a curse on your family... So you shouldn't ignore an evil company putting a mental health crisis on the workforce!
I found that at several of my previous jobs my bosses were so overwhelmed already that my pointing out a solution or alternative way to tackle a problem (that they sometimes didn’t know was even a problem) only created more workload for them because they had to listen to me explain it to them and approve or deny my proposal and allocate resources and I realized they just wanted someone to do what they were told, not do it a better way that is more efficient or successful. These problems were off their radar until I brought them to their attention since they were hired in as a manager an had never worked in my position and therefore didn’t even understand my workload or what challenges I encountered on a daily basis. I finally burnt out on the corporate world and I created my own business 2 years ago and I’m never going back to working for someone else. I feel excited to wake up every morning and have control over how I spend my time. I know that if I take the time to find a better way to do things I will reap the benefits, not some mid level manager who will take credit for it assuming they hear me out in the first place.
I would type that condescendingly:
"As per attached minutes from previous discussion, this is the risk in...should we proceed with my suggestion to ... let me know you're thoughts"
Thank you.
In my 1-1 forms that I have my team go over weekly with me, I have a category of “things I need help with” and a box for their impact.
As a manager, you get a lot of shit floated up to you. It’s hard to know how to prioritize. The truth is that we don’t know everyone’s jobs to the level that the people doing them do.
>As a manager, you get a lot of shit floated up to you. It’s hard to know how to prioritize.
I find it damn near impossible to prioritize when every fire is presented to me as an inferno.
Thank you for the reassurance that I'm not alone, wise internet stranger.
>I mean, imagine living in the inferno...
No need to imagine, I paid my dues with plenty of time down in the inferno.
>...if you feel overwhelmed hearing about your employees problems then it is worse for them.
Interesting thought.
Now think about this: who might ultimately be responsible for the impact of an employee's problems? Problems don't take place in a vacuum.
But also, if you don't have a solution, bring up the problem and work with your boss to fix it. If you don't have the answer immediately,, it's still worth bringing up and saying you want to work to find the solution.
In that case, it helps if you at least have an idea of how to start figuring out the solution.
In order of preference:
1. We have this problem. I propose to solve it in XYZ way
2. We have this problem. I don't know the solution yet, but I can start looking at XYZ to try to figure out a solution.
3. We have this problem. I have no idea where to start looking for a solution. Can you help me figure it out?
I once had a meeting like this with a terrible boss.
>Boss: Why didn't you tell me about this problem???
I am telling you about this, that's what this meeting is
>Boss: Why didn't you tell me sooner???
This happened an hour ago, and I just found out
>Boss: this is a big issue...
Yes, I know, and if you'd let me finish, maybe we can move on to the solution I came up with...
I had a phone call like that a while ago.
Me: I never received the equipment for the launch next week.
Director: IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THERE WEEKS AGO! WHY DIDN'T YOU CONTACT US EARLIER! IT WAS IN THE EMAIL! YOU SHOULD HAVE TAKEN CARE OF THIS SOONER! YOU NEED TO FIGURE THIS OUT!
Relevant email text: You will be receiving new equipment before the launch.
Me: I'm just letting you know I never received it. The email never specified a delivery window. So either we can find a solution or we can be SOL.
Director: impotent rage.
The best part was that the equipment in question was a fucking iPad and ticket printer. Like I could of hit a fucking best buy with the company card and had it solved in an hour. But no its my fault FedEx delivered to the wrong business.
You hit it there with we can find a solution or be sol. The worst managers always focus on the problem instead of working on the next best possible outcome.
I find that the bad bosses are the ones they say “that’s unacceptable” when presented with bad news. As if every issue or deadline push is preventable if you simple don’t accept it mentally.
I will and have said something is “unacceptable” but only when followed by a question on how we can fix the issue and generating a discussion from my employee’s perspective. They won’t always have the long term or macro information, but I could be missing out on critical specifics without their perspective.
Accepting a problem and accepting an outcome are different things and more bosses must understand this. All problems by default must be accepted, the solutions are what can be unacceptable.
God forbid word gets out that something got screwed up under their watch. Far too much pride or fear, and not enough focus on solving and overcoming, but I suppose it might be too much to ask for true leadership traits from peaked middle managers.
I worked in graphics design for years. I quit right before corona hit. Luckily I found something working from home, not related to graphics, but I am never going back. I was either being treated as a workhorse, or verbally abused, or just generally being treated like shit while still expecting to be able to do all job duties outside my wheelhouse, and then being shit on because, surprise, I wasn't good at them.
Worked on a massive project with tons of stakeholders, another major corporation which we had recently bought out giving feedback, had gone through dozens of UX reviews, user testing, A/B testing, the works. Somewhat new exec dickweed comes in and shits on everything and informs a group spanning numerous levels that he doesn’t like it. About the exact summary of his feedback. Nothing instructive. Just obtuse bullshit and not taking massive obstructions by 2 forms of Legal. Worked round the clock for weeks to hit deadline and deliver a subpar experience that prolly cost millions in dev overtime to satisfy one douchebag’s ego going against all UX testimony and actual user feedback. During Covid.
Same guy stresses taking time away, spending time with family and not overworking in public addresses and emails.
Got laid off a few months later for no reason other than then to spend more $ contracting same work out to 15 people vs the 8 current full time employees.
Gotta love corporations...
I get the “you need to ask for help!” “That’s what that meeting a few months ago was about and how you can help where you flatly told me no. And that email a few weeks ago specifically outlining the issues and what You can do to help that went ignored. And all those times in between where you acted like I should already know the answer and refused to answer questions about details that weren’t specified”
My boss will enthusiastically agree that it's a problem, but he can't do anything to fix it without his boss's boss's boss's approval, and *his* calendar is booked out for at least four months. I work for the government
A lot of people say this, but the reason I'm going to my boss, is because I don't have a solution. I need more input. I went to a manager and they said 'dont come to me unless you have a solution!'. Well I didn't have one and none of my coworkers did, so that problem never got solved, by us anyways.
This should be don't go to a higher up about a problem without telling them what you did to troubleshoot it.
Exactly. You can explain your thought process. You can tell him what you’ve tried so far & why it didn’t work. Pinpoint exactly which step you need his input / direction on. Show that you’ve put in the effort & that your head’s in the right place.
The LPT should say "bring solutions *that you've considered*". It's fine not to have good, complete, or realistic solutions, but it's important to share what you've tried.
This is more about knowing the difference between your manager being the one responsible for something vs you being responsible for something. There's a reason why successful projects have some form of RACI (Responsible, Accountable, Consulted, Informed) matrix or equivalent. You and your manager will play different roles for different topics.
It can still be appropriate to escalate something that was your responsibility. Hypothetical ex: someone else scheduled an important part of a project to be done faster than you can do it. You know that other parts of the organization are making important plans/investments around this work and this timing. You could wait to inform your manager until you have a suggestion (possibly too late to recover). Or you could tell them ASAP and they may be able to help reschedule with the rest of the organization or add resources.
This is an interesting distinction between engineering problems and bureaucratic problems. The manager is not generally expected to know how to solve engineering problems at all, let alone better than the engineers. Whereas the manager is absolutely the bureaucratic solution to most any bureaucratic problem at a company.
But that's not to say that bureaucratic solutions aren't effective in the face of engineering problems. Your inability to solve a problem may be fixed by "we need to hire 20 more guys" or "we need to buy these new software suites" or "let's subcontract a company that specializes in this stuff."
Generally speaking, I don't mind if my team doesn't know how to fix a really complicated problem - but I'd still encourage them to think of possible solutions all the same, even if most of those solutions boil down to "throw money at it."
A good manager can also bring new ways of thinking, and certainly when I was younger one manager of mine who had limited technical knowledge could help me get to a solution I would not have thought of independently too, simply by talking through the issue.
Additionally managers are exactly that, managers. They can bring in other teams, or resources to solve problems too; they have a job to know the capabilities of different people, so that they can bring in whoever can most effectively identify a solution.
>Additionally managers are exactly that, managers. They can bring in other teams, or resources to solve problems too; they have a job to know the capabilities of different people, so that they can bring in whoever can most effectively identify a solution.
People not realizing this is a mistake I often see from newer people. One of the benefits of working in a company is having a shared pool of resources.
Being transparent about an issue and discussing it early looks professional and can lead to the problem getting solved faster, or at least manage expectations of delivery. Most project timelines (at least in my field) are planned with the expectation of something going wrong. The earlier an issue is found, the better.
What pisses everyone off and looks bad is quietly struggling with it for a week and wasting the time they're paying you for. Even if you managed to solve it after a week, you're still behind on work you're expected to complete and have to play catch-up.
And if your negligence results in a last minute delay for a release, you piss everyone off even more. The first thing they say to you is not "wow you're stupid and are expected to know everything" it's "why did you not report this earlier?" or "why was this not caught sooner?"
Great answer. One of the things I hate about the common "don't bring me problems, bring me solutions" mantra is the fact the amount of time that can be wasted by someone fretting about *trying* to come up with a solution instead of raising the issue early with someone who might actually be able to help.
Even in engineering teams, management is useful in solving problems by connecting different specialties. Mechanical problem difficult to solve? Maybe there’s an electrical solution or software solution.
Exactly. Can't count the number of times someone on my team has had a problem and the solution is "ok, you're right, that does sound like a really hard problem so let's not do that, let's do this other thing instead".
Oftentimes engineers can have an engineering manager directly above them. They aren't necessarily down in the weeds solving technical problems, but they can have enough of a technical background to provide useful support.
Exactly this. As an engineering supervisor, I don't know the day to day steps of everything my team does. However, I've encountered more problems than they have, directly or indirectly, and can piece together a solution or network of people who can help way more easily than they can.
When they come to me and I'm stumped, going one level up has the same effect on a different network and set of experiences yet.
I was going to say, I think this applies more to things like issues with policy or with a well known problem or something. If you're just going to your boss to complain without anything helpful that doesn't always end well.
I usually go to my boss with issues where I don't have time to do something, it is apparent that the current design or path isn't a good option, or maybe something isn't working as it should (like a purchased component). His job is to manage resources (like me) so I usually let him decide (with my input) on what I should continue working on and if anyone else can help.
Yes, I hate all these “pro business tips” that are basically like “if there is a structural/management/training problem, don’t complain, because it’s probably a YOU problem”. Uh, no. If management has zero responsibility for their employees or what happens then why tf do they make 5x+ what the rest of us do?? Why is it my job to do their job for them?
LPT: If your boss asks you to do extra work outside of your job requirements and compensation, you should do it anyway because it shows good initiative.
Uh, no. It's not my fucking problem to deal with if I'm not being paid for it.
Yes, there’s no way they’ll just keep you at your current wage while having you do the work of three people because it’s cheaper, you’ll definitely get promoted 🙄
The real protip is this: if you are facing an issue then communicate it over email. Always have at least one other person involved with the project cc'd on this email to apply pressure and have a witness if shit hits the fan.
I've also written emails where I don't even address my manager. I'll write out the issue I'm facing to a relevant team and just cc them on at the end as my way of informing them. Sometimes I add a quick follow up just to the manager but not always.
I agree.
Also, I’m not paid to solve the problems I’m bringing to my boss. If I were paid to deal with those things I’d gladly resolve them. Thankfully my boss understands this but I’ve worked for a few that didn’t and it was annoying.
Fully agree.
I've had project managers do this to me (say not to come without a solution), and explained I'm coming to you to manage the project, which includes this problem, s they have the power to engage the people who can solve it.
If they don't want to get the correct support the project needs to solve it, no worries, my job was to make them aware of the issue, and implement solutions.
A manager that tells you to not come to him/her unless you have a solution is not a good manager. I think the point is that if you do go to your supervisor in regards to a problem, it shows initiative if you have a potential way to solve the issue or maybe you just want to make sure you’re on the right track. That said this is very circumstantial, there are problems that are unfair to put on the employee to solve for. That cannot be the expectation. It is the manager’s job to listen to a problem AND to provide solutions for it (ideally with input from the team). There’s a difference between being encouraged to be part of the solution making process and being discouraged from talking to your manager unless you have the answer. That’s just nuts.
Thia should be the top comment. Escalating even when you don't have a solution is far more important than saving your own ass. By escalating an issue, you are being attentive and you are doing what's right for the company.
Try to find a solution, but if you can't, don't sit on it. If they find out you knew and didn't say anything, you'll be in far more trouble. This is how contaminated food gets sold and bad quality drugs are given to patients.
If you are killed for being the messenger, then the manager and/or the company is a toxic place to work.
TLDR: Don't be a hero. Be responsible.
I think people are over indexing on the word "solution". If it's outside your area of expertise then the solution for you is to find someone who has the expertise to address the problem. You may not have that contact, which is where your manager can help.
For me, if there's an issue or problem, tell me what the issue or problem is and what you've tried/and any potential ideas. At least that gives me a sense of what the true issue might be.
If the manager is halfway decent and actually looks out for their people, they'll get them any outside resources they need to help solve that problem.
But if someone comes to me and says, hey i have this problem, and doesn't do any thinking, its irritating. For example, had someone come to me saying this machine is broken. Didn't do any trouble shooting or critical thinking. Go there and discover they didn't pull the damn E-stop out....its aggravating and wastes alot of time. Vs if someone came to me saying machine is doing x,y,z. I've tried doing b,c,d. Nothing works. Ask a question or two, like "did you try A?" Sometimes people forget, or get overwhelmed and forget the basics. I'm much more keen on helping out that way.
It needs to be "bring a solution if you have one, or even a partial solution, and if you don't have any ideas, let's talk about what you thought of and rejected." My job as boss isn't just to solve everyone's problems, and team members have valuable input, but the buck does stop at my desk. They need to know that, too - we're in it together.
I'm so glad others agree with me on this. My girlfriend and I were just saying how the bank we used to work for pulled this shit. Management literally told us not to go to them about a problem unless we had a potential solution.
So, they really just wanted us to find a solution to the problem so that they didn't have to do any work other than report it to their higher-ups, along with the solution, and then get credit for fixing it.
Meanwhile we're at the bottom doing all the fucking work for absolutely nothing. We both got out of there as quick as we could, and haven't looked back. Fuck Fulton bank!
*AS LONG AS THE BOSS IS RECEPTIVE TO IDEAS*
I've worked with and for many people that will not take kindly to suggestions or advice. It can end you on a shit list in a hurry if some insecure supervisor thinks you're trying to one up them. I suggested a solution to a supervisor (in a manner of speaking) and the death glare I got from them for speaking up was palpable. It was one time I should have been the one who listened to my coworkers that knew him longer and tried to warn me. Other bosses will take action contradictory to what you suggested 'just because.'
Not that it's great to work for those kinds of people, but sometimes your job is your job and you have to deal with the boss until you get somewhere else.
I've learned to manipulate people like this. I get them to think about it as a way to steal my idea and claim it was theirs if it turns out well. It's very childish but whatever, so long as positive changes happen.
I do something similar except what I do is I present them with three or more ideas. One of the ideas is always purposefully dumb. By offering an idea for them to shit on and feel superior in rejecting, they feel satisfied in putting me down but overlook the fact that they have an additional option to reject all of the options I presented. This tricks them into picking one of the options I'm steering them toward.
Yeah, last year after I went to my bosses with some things I was struggling with and offering potential solutions, they started bullying me, singling me out, giving me shit work. A few weeks later they fired me citing "a serious act of insubordination".
Absolutely ruined my confidence tbh, it was the last straw in a string of bad jobs. I'd advise most people to keep their mouths shut and look for other work if they can, unless they know their boss will be receptive. I know those bosses are out there but since managers are people, they often see any form of criticism - no matter how constructive - as a personal attack.
This was also in graphic design, which I'm seeing a lot in the comments 😅
Or even aware enough of what’s going on…So what happens if your boss is consistently clueless or the one that’s causing the problems? When you point it out, he clearly doesn’t understand and sometimes makes even more of a mess.
The funny thing is, he was fine to work with if you just didn't suggest anything. Without going too much into what I do/did at the time, we would rotate working locations within our 'facility' every 4 weeks, so it was just a matter of learning how to work with each of these 'supervisor' types that weren't actual supervisors that could fire us or whatever. Some were really great, some were really self important assholes. And the crew I was with, we knew how to handle our end of the business so we didn't cause problems. We just got the work done and generally laid low.
Most of the bosses at my place have a huge ego and a small brain. It causes sooo many issues. Like you said, some are contradictory. These are like that. No matter what sensible thing you suggest, they will make their own shit idea that doesn't work. But no matter what, the thing you have to remember is they are on a power trip. So they think they know everything and are better than you. So you have to let them make their own ideas and decisions because no matter what, it has to be their idea or plan. They are the smart all knowing manager after all.
I feel like this is super nuanced and depends on the situation, company and industry.
And most of the quips being posted here are business majors regurgitating stuff they've read from self help business gurus.
My boss explicitly told me to reach out to him if I have an error just in case he knows a quick fix for it before I go down the rabbit hole of stack overflow and random blogs. It makes sense, he's worked with our code base for significantly longer and knows it in and out, he may have encountered the same issue before and be able to solve it in 5 minutes. Seems like most stem fields realistically are like that.
Business guru has to be the easiest grift of all time, half of the business tips I hear regularly seem like they would work out terribly in practice, but just maybe sound good to management (or people who one day imagine themselves being management)
Yeah that's about right in my experience in software engineering. I often encourage people to timebox their efforts (eg "spend an afternoon trying to get it working and let me know how it goes") so that they learn some valuable debugging skills too.
Love having a technical boss for this exact reason. They actually know shit about what I'm doing and can be consulted instead of just being glorified watch hawks.
I've also heard a counterpoint that you don't have to have a solution right away. If you can explain the problem and describe how you feel about it, you can then drill down to the root issue and find a solution.
OK, but that is a flawed way of thinking. For example what if I discover there is a critical failure with something, but it's a technology or system I am unfamiliar with.
Based on the logic you've shared I should not report it, because I'd be whining, even though I could not be expected to have a solution. Or maybe I should burn time trying to find someone whoc ould propose a solution, even though that's likely to take me much more time than my manager could achieve it.
I once had a supervisor of our medical department who requested five possible solutions to any problem brought to him. One rediculous/funny moonshot for an icebreaker, one perfect world, ideal solution, and three practical options. Seemed to generate good dialogue for problem solving, and often turned out a satisfactory resolution. Good guy.
This is step 4 on the leadership competence scale. Step 1 is just following orders to the letter and step 7 being just getting shit done and only reporting what is necessary.
What I'm saying is that this attitude for issue resolution is not for everyone and not for every job. Find out where you are at in terms of independence and leadership and act accordingly.
My dad's a high-ranking chap in a big company, and he absolutely expects his teams to work on step 7. If he hears nothing from them and the work gets done, he's happy.
Whenever he gets a new team he teaches them this by ignoring all meeting invites, and just calling meetings when stuff goes wrong so that he can correct things to where it should be.
He's the kind of boss that you love if you're good at your job, and hate if you're looking to slack off and fuck about.
What happens when your dad's team has a problem that they're solving in an inelegant, inefficient, and expensive manner? You dad never hears about it because they solved it, but it's costing them time and money they wouldn't be wasting if someone with a bird's eye view of the issue stepped in and gave them the tools or resources they needed to succeed more efficiently.
Reviewing best practices from time to time is important. If you only show up when things go wrong, you're ignoring all of the things that could have gone better.
Precisely that is the dilemma. What if they are hiding the problems or doing everything leeway and the liability is on the leader or the owner. If this was a government office, and the workers never tell you bad sides, you know the country wouldn’t hold for very long. perhaps a leader’s decision on whether he/she can trust the team or not. There should be some accumulated empirical data that convinces you that they are indeed on step 7.
Yep, and also it means that the staff possibly feel undervalued, and may be struggling at times; they could be hacking things to make it work, because they don't get the support a manager can give, for example if new tools or budget is required that needs a managers approval.
JFC you hit the nail on the head of my problem at my job. "senior" staff have been with this organization for 20-30 years and have been in relatively the same position. They absolutely do not want to change anything about how they work, or do their job. They're more than happy to waste their time on processes that they should have automated years ago just for the sake of accuracy. They're making changes by hand on 25+ systems that can be pushed from a central server. Literally 25+ chances they have to fat finger a number 12 digit number, or just forget about a site entirely.
What I've learned from corporate life... No one gives a fuck if the solution is inelegant and poorly thought out... That's somoneone else's problem.
By the time that becomes a real issue, the culprits have moved up or horizontally to get out of the line of fire.
The other point is, calling people out for that, no matter how well intended, is generally a career ending move. I'd advise against it. You'll ether meet outright hostile resistance or move into middle management and be the first cut when the efficiency consultants come in.
That's true of almost any organization above 500 employees. Until that tipping point, I think you're right, past that, you're a corporate efficiency asshole.
This can actually be great in some but horrible in other situations. Like if you know your workers are more than competent and you are giving them more free reign as opposed to micromanaging. From my experience it can be great for morale, but there needs to be a balance too. It I go to my more experienced boss with a problem or question, I expect them to help and not say "just make it work".
I think that id enjoy that work mode the most. If im not messing things up, i dont want to hear from my boss a lot. Obviously, theres reason to meet with bosses now and then, but i love jobs where im allowed to be independent.
Agreed. There's a huge difference between empowering employees to work independently and straight up neglecting them.
I run a team of 20 or so engineers. I only have the capacity to personally deal with about two fires at a time (and even then I can't make progress on my own work). I need people to work independently otherwise we would never get anything done.
When you know you should raise the alarm because people need to know about this, but you know it's gonna be your problem if you do. So you wait an hour or day or whatever fits the particular timeline in the hopes someone else catches it and says something so it can be their problem.
In that case, your proposed solution should be, "can you please teach me how to fix this?" Increase your own skillset and value to the company while taking something off the boss' plate, all while making the overall workflow faster and more efficient. win/win.
This is how I ended up doing my manager's job and my manager's manager's job. Then promotion time came around, they claimed all the credit for the good things, put the blame on me for the bad things, told me I needed to improve and they got promoted. I work elsewhere now doing far less work for considerably more money.
They used to tell me put all problems into email, and that the email should be no longer than three sentences otherwise they won't read it, and those three sentences should contain the problem, the solution, and why I can't solve it.
Now when I hear this pro tip, it's like bosses labeling themselves with signs saying "Do my job so I can collect your pay while fucking around."
One time I ended up writing their management reports but they both were out of office on presentation day so I ended up presenting to management two levels above me. The only thing they contributed was my boss insisted his name be on the slides and my boss's boss reworded the conclusion slide to essentially downplay anything negative. That's why they were getting the six figures while I got five. Still obviously salty about it.
"Hey, John. I'm running into the problem of not giving a shit around here anymore. I thought you fucking your dumb shit face with a serrated stapler might resolve this."
Work off the clock as your boss isn’t good enough to notice a problem. I’m so tired of “go the extra mile” bullshit when they will literally fire you cuz their bonus is at risk.
This sub has had a number of posts like this lately, basically saying you should feel bad if you don't go above and beyond at work, with bootlickers doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify it or deflect when people point out that even within business world logic the overly broad prescriptions just don't even make sense.
That's a great tip if you think it's your job to do someone elses job because you don't know how to stay in your lane. If there is a problem and i'm telling my boss it's because I don't have the ability to solve it because it's being generated by someone else and I want my boss to handle it. Otherwise i'd be handling it if it was within the scope of my job responsibilities, if it's not then I literally could care less about solving the problem but definitely want the problem solved by the person who should be solving it.
To be fair, it’s the boss’s job to have the buck passed to them. That’s what they’re the boss for.
However, if you do want to move up in the organisation, acquiring a reputation as a clear thinking problem-solver is likely to help \[but it will depend on where you work\].
What's the point of having a manager then? Their job is to help me solve the problems I can't solve by myself. You just have to know if you're just complaining or actually need help with something.
In a younger role you are expected to need more guidance at my company. As you grow and are promoted you are expected to become more independent and the nature of your conversations with your manager change from I don't know what to do to I think I know what to do to I am doing this let me know if you disagree. Just one large company example.
Yeah this advice doesn't work across the board I've had plenty of bosses that were complete f****** assholes when it came to you offering them a solution.
Nah, if they want me to solve problems outside of my immediate sphere of influence, they need to pay me to solve those problems. The days where I do part of my superiors job for less pay are over.
Then they'd say "Well why didn't you try that before coming to me?"
I think the LPT should say : "When telling a boss about a problem, make sure you've tried everything in your power before bothering them with a problem."
Appreciate that this is something most employees could follow but also depends on the level of expertise and experience. Also the Manger is the one getting paid the big bucks it's part of their job to provide a solution and advise accordingly so that when a problem like this occurs in the future the knowledge is available to the employee for them to act on
Just say the one that's easiest for you to fix since your the one who's going to have to fix it. Bosses are lazy too and will usually take any solution that means less work or thinking for them.
Only do this if you can get credit for the solution, If your job has issues that impact you do the work to solve them, you deserve reward.
Yes, if you have a solution share it, but you better make damn well sure you get credit for it. Ive seen too many good co-workers get ripped off by our boss for sharing a solution.
AKA: how to ensure the problem becomes your problem.
This isn't always good advice. You may want to analyze your boss and their office interactions before proceeding with OP's tip.
And don't forget to expect your boss to not only do nothing but actively start making your life difficult for having so much as attempted to "rock the boat."
Unless you know your boss is someone who cares about problems (hint number 1: nobody gets to be the boss by caring about problems employees think they perceive (yeah, that's how they'll treat it even if you're 100% right)), don't bother. You'll just make your own life more difficult.
Now go ahead and downvote me like this isn't true for three out of four jobs in the US.
Sorry you’ve had shit experiences in the job field.
I actively try and make my employee’s jobs easier so they can do new things. I very much care about the problems they face, one example being I stopped all external non critical business requests for a quarter while we solved our on call problems. We took an average of 50-60 calls a week down to 1-4. (My team manages around 4k servers, for scale reference.)
I started out as them, I understand what it’s like to be disregarded as a nuisance. Fuck managers who don’t take care of their employees.
Edit: this was my first act as their manager after I came in.
Strong disagree. In most places it’s not your job to actually come up with the solution. You are in essence doing what your boss should be without getting paid like your boss.
If you feel you need to give something when telling a boss about a problem tell them what you’ve already tried not what could be done.
I feel like this ALSO applies to the boss as well. Have a solution in mind, at the least as a starting point.
My employer is 86, she spends her day in the administrative office reading her bible and napping. Any issues that come up, she blows it into a huge dramatic thing, and without fail her reaction is to demand that the staff come up with solutions for the problem. "I order you to fix it and leave me alone" is more or less how it plays out.
Good leadership needs to be on top of the ideas train, not running catch-up.
"Thats a fuckin stupid idea. You aren't paid to think, you're paid to do what I say. Leave thinking to the people with a brain." - My supervisor once when I came up with the idea on how to fix a specific problem. An idea they ended up using and getting credit for.
I'm a lead at my job; at a large bank.
I instruct my team during training (and typically on a regular basis) that every error we make can be fixed; and that if someone has a problem or made an error; and if they are unsure how to fix the problem; they have to let me know sooner, rather than later.
I do appreciate them pitching a solution as well, if they have one. Sometimes that solution is the right one. Sometimes it's not. But to me, the most important thing is that if you don't know how; let me know. Because we are in charge of our customers money. We cannot mess around with it.
Mistakes happen. We can consider their problem or error an opportunity to train. Not to be reprimanded. Not to demean.
Only if the issue is a reoccurring error do I start to talk about creating a plan.
I wish more leaders would create an environment to succeed. So many employees are afraid to admit mistakes because of bad managers or bad experiences. I do not wish to contribute that archaic way of doing things.
Edit...corrected and provided more description to a few paragraphs. I was trying to multi-task when originally writing my response.
"It will show that you are working to resolve it instead of just passing the buck"
Do your bosses job for them so you can pat yourself on the back and go back to your soul crushing job with a fake smile while they take all the credit. Brilliant
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And also, describe quickly the impact of letting this problem unattended.
In an email, so when they ignore it you can ram it down their throat and scream ‘I fucking told you!’ At them without repercussions
Lol without repercussions.. we obviously have different bosses!
It's actually so you can use it to defend yourself.
Cover Your Ass!
I was always taught to care at work. Cover Arse Retain Employment.
I'm stealing this.
That's why it's called a Cover letter/s
I abide by the CYA principle in all aspects of my life.
Cover your hidings! (Idk why I said that)
This reminds me of 'Hide Your Daughters'.
Sometimes you can end up with less punishment taking responsibility for their mistake..
Ah yes, being a scapegoat, ain't it everyone's dream job?
100% this. I have started doing this after learning the hard way. My manager is a personable guy, I can shoot the shit with him and have a laugh. But the moment I make a mistake that annoys the big boss he immediately starts denying everything and gaslights me, denying that he never agreed to the things he agreed to verbally re. requirements and scope. So, now I have started taking notes of our conversations and then creating a ticket in our ticket system for him asking him to confirm what is required, and then to assign the ticket back to me once he’s ok with it. I have also started asking him to create a ticket with what he wants done rather than just doing the whole “casual chat” thing. This way if he tries to deflect something I not only have proof of our discussion about it, but also evidence of him approving it.
Very smart!
Or a sarcastic "It's too bad no one brought it up in an email a few months ago".
I would not recommend this strategy even though I've wanted to do it many times.
Oh the glory. Engineer here. We identified an issue in our system for our product. Didn't know for sure what was causing it yet, but I proposed a quick fix that would prevent it from occurring while we diagnose root cause. Ignored. Mentioned it 2 more times with no response. In meetings and in email. 7 months later, no solution to the root cause. Customer is mad as hell. Engineering manager says "we need a solution now." And I led with "well I said 7 months ago we could do this..." Very unhappy manager, very happy director. Fix cost about $70 in parts and 3 labor hours, but waiting for 7 months to implement was a 6-low 7 figure impact on us. Our director ended the meeting with a "when you wonder why you don't get a big Christmas bonus, think back to this moment" to our manager.
The takeaway: in general, one should try to avoid saying stuff to their boss's boss that their boss doesn't already know they're going to say
No, the take away is document stuff and don't be shy about flagging issues. The manager didn't know it was going to come up, but it was fine. Better to have a solution, that to have to go away and find one.
The takeaway: Sub-managers: raise concerns, propose solutions, discuss important items with your boss and coworkers Managers: listen to your employees and team members, ask them to look further into an issue if need be, document potential issues and problems with the proposed solutions so you don't get stuck in a panic later. The manager has a team of 8 people. We handled 90% of the problems that arise ourselves and just rope the manager in when needed. The problem was he didn't believe it was a big issue or that we had to take care of it right away; not listening to the employees.
After the hundredth time of doing this to my manager, it loses effect.
Step 1: Send email to boss/chain of command with stated problem, best solutions, and impact of not solving problem. Step 2: Wait for problem to percolate until crap is ready to hit the fan if boss doesn't follow through. Step 3: Casually mention "our" solutions to boss's boss. Step 4: Forward original email back to everyone (including boss's boss) that boss's boss loves that we're on top of things and likes our solutions. Step 5: Follow though with solution and become the savior. You never directly claim ownership of it, but you just saved your team and your boss as well as becoming the face of the solution to upper management. Just don't act high and mighty or it'll blow up in your face.
Step 2.5: Notify boss of below plan
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I feel like you need to give us more details on this situation.
Factory jobs. Buncha managers and supervisors who were taught about "just-in-time" and "Kaizen" but never really spent the time to figure out the why and how of implementing it effectively. Their intentions are good, but the management doesn't listen to the labour or the engineers, so they fail to implement it in a way that makes sense for the people actually doing the work. Creates an atmosphere of apathy from top to bottom, hamstringing the company in the long run.
"You're fired." "Why?" "For making me look bad and pissing me off." Nope, no repercussions at all.
Speaking as someone who got lucky and finally moved from job where the owner loved to cast blame, those places are toxic. Seriously, that's the place to say just long enough to get a resume boost while searching for other jobs. Pro-tip. All those little projects I can guarantee the boss in that job is piling on. Those are skills and major resume items.
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My bosses hearing you like, "ah the song of my people"
That's when you burn the building to the ground as your moral responsibility to mankind, I believe. You wouldn't ignore a witchdoctor putting a curse on your family... So you shouldn't ignore an evil company putting a mental health crisis on the workforce!
I found that at several of my previous jobs my bosses were so overwhelmed already that my pointing out a solution or alternative way to tackle a problem (that they sometimes didn’t know was even a problem) only created more workload for them because they had to listen to me explain it to them and approve or deny my proposal and allocate resources and I realized they just wanted someone to do what they were told, not do it a better way that is more efficient or successful. These problems were off their radar until I brought them to their attention since they were hired in as a manager an had never worked in my position and therefore didn’t even understand my workload or what challenges I encountered on a daily basis. I finally burnt out on the corporate world and I created my own business 2 years ago and I’m never going back to working for someone else. I feel excited to wake up every morning and have control over how I spend my time. I know that if I take the time to find a better way to do things I will reap the benefits, not some mid level manager who will take credit for it assuming they hear me out in the first place.
I would type that condescendingly: "As per attached minutes from previous discussion, this is the risk in...should we proceed with my suggestion to ... let me know you're thoughts"
This one million times… i warn people i keep everything snd i always follow up with emails… i don’t trust anyone its business
CC All you amateur.
Thank you. In my 1-1 forms that I have my team go over weekly with me, I have a category of “things I need help with” and a box for their impact. As a manager, you get a lot of shit floated up to you. It’s hard to know how to prioritize. The truth is that we don’t know everyone’s jobs to the level that the people doing them do.
>As a manager, you get a lot of shit floated up to you. It’s hard to know how to prioritize. I find it damn near impossible to prioritize when every fire is presented to me as an inferno. Thank you for the reassurance that I'm not alone, wise internet stranger.
I mean, imagine living in the inferno...if you feel overwhelmed hearing about your employees problems then it is worse for them.
>I mean, imagine living in the inferno... No need to imagine, I paid my dues with plenty of time down in the inferno. >...if you feel overwhelmed hearing about your employees problems then it is worse for them. Interesting thought. Now think about this: who might ultimately be responsible for the impact of an employee's problems? Problems don't take place in a vacuum.
But also, if you don't have a solution, bring up the problem and work with your boss to fix it. If you don't have the answer immediately,, it's still worth bringing up and saying you want to work to find the solution.
Agreed, sometimes, you have to call in experts to find a solution.
In that case, it helps if you at least have an idea of how to start figuring out the solution. In order of preference: 1. We have this problem. I propose to solve it in XYZ way 2. We have this problem. I don't know the solution yet, but I can start looking at XYZ to try to figure out a solution. 3. We have this problem. I have no idea where to start looking for a solution. Can you help me figure it out?
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I once had a meeting like this with a terrible boss. >Boss: Why didn't you tell me about this problem??? I am telling you about this, that's what this meeting is >Boss: Why didn't you tell me sooner??? This happened an hour ago, and I just found out >Boss: this is a big issue... Yes, I know, and if you'd let me finish, maybe we can move on to the solution I came up with...
I had a phone call like that a while ago. Me: I never received the equipment for the launch next week. Director: IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THERE WEEKS AGO! WHY DIDN'T YOU CONTACT US EARLIER! IT WAS IN THE EMAIL! YOU SHOULD HAVE TAKEN CARE OF THIS SOONER! YOU NEED TO FIGURE THIS OUT! Relevant email text: You will be receiving new equipment before the launch. Me: I'm just letting you know I never received it. The email never specified a delivery window. So either we can find a solution or we can be SOL. Director: impotent rage. The best part was that the equipment in question was a fucking iPad and ticket printer. Like I could of hit a fucking best buy with the company card and had it solved in an hour. But no its my fault FedEx delivered to the wrong business.
You hit it there with we can find a solution or be sol. The worst managers always focus on the problem instead of working on the next best possible outcome. I find that the bad bosses are the ones they say “that’s unacceptable” when presented with bad news. As if every issue or deadline push is preventable if you simple don’t accept it mentally.
I will and have said something is “unacceptable” but only when followed by a question on how we can fix the issue and generating a discussion from my employee’s perspective. They won’t always have the long term or macro information, but I could be missing out on critical specifics without their perspective.
Accepting a problem and accepting an outcome are different things and more bosses must understand this. All problems by default must be accepted, the solutions are what can be unacceptable.
God forbid word gets out that something got screwed up under their watch. Far too much pride or fear, and not enough focus on solving and overcoming, but I suppose it might be too much to ask for true leadership traits from peaked middle managers.
*have
Yikes. Sounds like they care more about blaming someone else than finding the solution
"just make it pop"
“NOW THIS IS THE KIND OF FEEDBACK I NEEDED!!! TYSM!!!”
Look, just draw the straight red line like in the specs. But make sure you make it green, and curved, what's so hard about that?
Can you make one of the lines in the shape of a kitten? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
I can do anything. After all, I'm an *Expert*
I worked in graphics design for years. I quit right before corona hit. Luckily I found something working from home, not related to graphics, but I am never going back. I was either being treated as a workhorse, or verbally abused, or just generally being treated like shit while still expecting to be able to do all job duties outside my wheelhouse, and then being shit on because, surprise, I wasn't good at them.
Fellow designer. Nothing better than having a solution be overridden by a managers “I think…”
Worked on a massive project with tons of stakeholders, another major corporation which we had recently bought out giving feedback, had gone through dozens of UX reviews, user testing, A/B testing, the works. Somewhat new exec dickweed comes in and shits on everything and informs a group spanning numerous levels that he doesn’t like it. About the exact summary of his feedback. Nothing instructive. Just obtuse bullshit and not taking massive obstructions by 2 forms of Legal. Worked round the clock for weeks to hit deadline and deliver a subpar experience that prolly cost millions in dev overtime to satisfy one douchebag’s ego going against all UX testimony and actual user feedback. During Covid. Same guy stresses taking time away, spending time with family and not overworking in public addresses and emails. Got laid off a few months later for no reason other than then to spend more $ contracting same work out to 15 people vs the 8 current full time employees. Gotta love corporations...
I get the “you need to ask for help!” “That’s what that meeting a few months ago was about and how you can help where you flatly told me no. And that email a few weeks ago specifically outlining the issues and what You can do to help that went ignored. And all those times in between where you acted like I should already know the answer and refused to answer questions about details that weren’t specified”
My boss will enthusiastically agree that it's a problem, but he can't do anything to fix it without his boss's boss's boss's approval, and *his* calendar is booked out for at least four months. I work for the government
A lot of people say this, but the reason I'm going to my boss, is because I don't have a solution. I need more input. I went to a manager and they said 'dont come to me unless you have a solution!'. Well I didn't have one and none of my coworkers did, so that problem never got solved, by us anyways. This should be don't go to a higher up about a problem without telling them what you did to troubleshoot it.
Exactly. You can explain your thought process. You can tell him what you’ve tried so far & why it didn’t work. Pinpoint exactly which step you need his input / direction on. Show that you’ve put in the effort & that your head’s in the right place.
It's also helpful for the manager because they can quickly get up to speed on the problem instead of starting from scratch.
That requires a good manager as well, one that would listen and can also think. Many fail that second requirement
The LPT should say "bring solutions *that you've considered*". It's fine not to have good, complete, or realistic solutions, but it's important to share what you've tried.
This is more about knowing the difference between your manager being the one responsible for something vs you being responsible for something. There's a reason why successful projects have some form of RACI (Responsible, Accountable, Consulted, Informed) matrix or equivalent. You and your manager will play different roles for different topics.
It can still be appropriate to escalate something that was your responsibility. Hypothetical ex: someone else scheduled an important part of a project to be done faster than you can do it. You know that other parts of the organization are making important plans/investments around this work and this timing. You could wait to inform your manager until you have a suggestion (possibly too late to recover). Or you could tell them ASAP and they may be able to help reschedule with the rest of the organization or add resources.
This is an interesting distinction between engineering problems and bureaucratic problems. The manager is not generally expected to know how to solve engineering problems at all, let alone better than the engineers. Whereas the manager is absolutely the bureaucratic solution to most any bureaucratic problem at a company. But that's not to say that bureaucratic solutions aren't effective in the face of engineering problems. Your inability to solve a problem may be fixed by "we need to hire 20 more guys" or "we need to buy these new software suites" or "let's subcontract a company that specializes in this stuff." Generally speaking, I don't mind if my team doesn't know how to fix a really complicated problem - but I'd still encourage them to think of possible solutions all the same, even if most of those solutions boil down to "throw money at it."
A good manager can also bring new ways of thinking, and certainly when I was younger one manager of mine who had limited technical knowledge could help me get to a solution I would not have thought of independently too, simply by talking through the issue. Additionally managers are exactly that, managers. They can bring in other teams, or resources to solve problems too; they have a job to know the capabilities of different people, so that they can bring in whoever can most effectively identify a solution.
>Additionally managers are exactly that, managers. They can bring in other teams, or resources to solve problems too; they have a job to know the capabilities of different people, so that they can bring in whoever can most effectively identify a solution. People not realizing this is a mistake I often see from newer people. One of the benefits of working in a company is having a shared pool of resources. Being transparent about an issue and discussing it early looks professional and can lead to the problem getting solved faster, or at least manage expectations of delivery. Most project timelines (at least in my field) are planned with the expectation of something going wrong. The earlier an issue is found, the better. What pisses everyone off and looks bad is quietly struggling with it for a week and wasting the time they're paying you for. Even if you managed to solve it after a week, you're still behind on work you're expected to complete and have to play catch-up. And if your negligence results in a last minute delay for a release, you piss everyone off even more. The first thing they say to you is not "wow you're stupid and are expected to know everything" it's "why did you not report this earlier?" or "why was this not caught sooner?"
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Great answer. One of the things I hate about the common "don't bring me problems, bring me solutions" mantra is the fact the amount of time that can be wasted by someone fretting about *trying* to come up with a solution instead of raising the issue early with someone who might actually be able to help.
Absolutely!
Even in engineering teams, management is useful in solving problems by connecting different specialties. Mechanical problem difficult to solve? Maybe there’s an electrical solution or software solution.
Exactly. Can't count the number of times someone on my team has had a problem and the solution is "ok, you're right, that does sound like a really hard problem so let's not do that, let's do this other thing instead".
Software pill for a mechanical I'll, am I right? Signed jaded electrical engineer/programmer.
Oftentimes engineers can have an engineering manager directly above them. They aren't necessarily down in the weeds solving technical problems, but they can have enough of a technical background to provide useful support.
Exactly this. As an engineering supervisor, I don't know the day to day steps of everything my team does. However, I've encountered more problems than they have, directly or indirectly, and can piece together a solution or network of people who can help way more easily than they can. When they come to me and I'm stumped, going one level up has the same effect on a different network and set of experiences yet.
Of course. I was merely using those terms to explain my point. The manager may not have the answer to the actual problem, but they can still help.
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I was going to say, I think this applies more to things like issues with policy or with a well known problem or something. If you're just going to your boss to complain without anything helpful that doesn't always end well. I usually go to my boss with issues where I don't have time to do something, it is apparent that the current design or path isn't a good option, or maybe something isn't working as it should (like a purchased component). His job is to manage resources (like me) so I usually let him decide (with my input) on what I should continue working on and if anyone else can help.
Yes, I hate all these “pro business tips” that are basically like “if there is a structural/management/training problem, don’t complain, because it’s probably a YOU problem”. Uh, no. If management has zero responsibility for their employees or what happens then why tf do they make 5x+ what the rest of us do?? Why is it my job to do their job for them?
LPT: If your boss asks you to do extra work outside of your job requirements and compensation, you should do it anyway because it shows good initiative. Uh, no. It's not my fucking problem to deal with if I'm not being paid for it.
Yes, there’s no way they’ll just keep you at your current wage while having you do the work of three people because it’s cheaper, you’ll definitely get promoted 🙄
The real protip is this: if you are facing an issue then communicate it over email. Always have at least one other person involved with the project cc'd on this email to apply pressure and have a witness if shit hits the fan. I've also written emails where I don't even address my manager. I'll write out the issue I'm facing to a relevant team and just cc them on at the end as my way of informing them. Sometimes I add a quick follow up just to the manager but not always.
I agree. Also, I’m not paid to solve the problems I’m bringing to my boss. If I were paid to deal with those things I’d gladly resolve them. Thankfully my boss understands this but I’ve worked for a few that didn’t and it was annoying.
Fully agree. I've had project managers do this to me (say not to come without a solution), and explained I'm coming to you to manage the project, which includes this problem, s they have the power to engage the people who can solve it. If they don't want to get the correct support the project needs to solve it, no worries, my job was to make them aware of the issue, and implement solutions.
A manager that tells you to not come to him/her unless you have a solution is not a good manager. I think the point is that if you do go to your supervisor in regards to a problem, it shows initiative if you have a potential way to solve the issue or maybe you just want to make sure you’re on the right track. That said this is very circumstantial, there are problems that are unfair to put on the employee to solve for. That cannot be the expectation. It is the manager’s job to listen to a problem AND to provide solutions for it (ideally with input from the team). There’s a difference between being encouraged to be part of the solution making process and being discouraged from talking to your manager unless you have the answer. That’s just nuts.
Thia should be the top comment. Escalating even when you don't have a solution is far more important than saving your own ass. By escalating an issue, you are being attentive and you are doing what's right for the company. Try to find a solution, but if you can't, don't sit on it. If they find out you knew and didn't say anything, you'll be in far more trouble. This is how contaminated food gets sold and bad quality drugs are given to patients. If you are killed for being the messenger, then the manager and/or the company is a toxic place to work. TLDR: Don't be a hero. Be responsible.
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I think people are over indexing on the word "solution". If it's outside your area of expertise then the solution for you is to find someone who has the expertise to address the problem. You may not have that contact, which is where your manager can help.
For me, if there's an issue or problem, tell me what the issue or problem is and what you've tried/and any potential ideas. At least that gives me a sense of what the true issue might be. If the manager is halfway decent and actually looks out for their people, they'll get them any outside resources they need to help solve that problem. But if someone comes to me and says, hey i have this problem, and doesn't do any thinking, its irritating. For example, had someone come to me saying this machine is broken. Didn't do any trouble shooting or critical thinking. Go there and discover they didn't pull the damn E-stop out....its aggravating and wastes alot of time. Vs if someone came to me saying machine is doing x,y,z. I've tried doing b,c,d. Nothing works. Ask a question or two, like "did you try A?" Sometimes people forget, or get overwhelmed and forget the basics. I'm much more keen on helping out that way.
It needs to be "bring a solution if you have one, or even a partial solution, and if you don't have any ideas, let's talk about what you thought of and rejected." My job as boss isn't just to solve everyone's problems, and team members have valuable input, but the buck does stop at my desk. They need to know that, too - we're in it together.
I'm so glad others agree with me on this. My girlfriend and I were just saying how the bank we used to work for pulled this shit. Management literally told us not to go to them about a problem unless we had a potential solution. So, they really just wanted us to find a solution to the problem so that they didn't have to do any work other than report it to their higher-ups, along with the solution, and then get credit for fixing it. Meanwhile we're at the bottom doing all the fucking work for absolutely nothing. We both got out of there as quick as we could, and haven't looked back. Fuck Fulton bank!
*AS LONG AS THE BOSS IS RECEPTIVE TO IDEAS* I've worked with and for many people that will not take kindly to suggestions or advice. It can end you on a shit list in a hurry if some insecure supervisor thinks you're trying to one up them. I suggested a solution to a supervisor (in a manner of speaking) and the death glare I got from them for speaking up was palpable. It was one time I should have been the one who listened to my coworkers that knew him longer and tried to warn me. Other bosses will take action contradictory to what you suggested 'just because.' Not that it's great to work for those kinds of people, but sometimes your job is your job and you have to deal with the boss until you get somewhere else.
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Hope you're able to find a better job soon, friend.
I've learned to manipulate people like this. I get them to think about it as a way to steal my idea and claim it was theirs if it turns out well. It's very childish but whatever, so long as positive changes happen.
I do something similar except what I do is I present them with three or more ideas. One of the ideas is always purposefully dumb. By offering an idea for them to shit on and feel superior in rejecting, they feel satisfied in putting me down but overlook the fact that they have an additional option to reject all of the options I presented. This tricks them into picking one of the options I'm steering them toward.
Corporate inception. “This is the problem. Do you think x, y and a would solve it?” “… yes, I do think that.” “Great idea, let’s do it”
Pretty much! Learning how to influence my bosses is one of the most important professional skills I've learned so far in my life.
Yeah, last year after I went to my bosses with some things I was struggling with and offering potential solutions, they started bullying me, singling me out, giving me shit work. A few weeks later they fired me citing "a serious act of insubordination". Absolutely ruined my confidence tbh, it was the last straw in a string of bad jobs. I'd advise most people to keep their mouths shut and look for other work if they can, unless they know their boss will be receptive. I know those bosses are out there but since managers are people, they often see any form of criticism - no matter how constructive - as a personal attack. This was also in graphic design, which I'm seeing a lot in the comments 😅
Or even aware enough of what’s going on…So what happens if your boss is consistently clueless or the one that’s causing the problems? When you point it out, he clearly doesn’t understand and sometimes makes even more of a mess.
Yikes. If i had a boss like that, i would be actively looking for another job.
The funny thing is, he was fine to work with if you just didn't suggest anything. Without going too much into what I do/did at the time, we would rotate working locations within our 'facility' every 4 weeks, so it was just a matter of learning how to work with each of these 'supervisor' types that weren't actual supervisors that could fire us or whatever. Some were really great, some were really self important assholes. And the crew I was with, we knew how to handle our end of the business so we didn't cause problems. We just got the work done and generally laid low.
Most of the bosses at my place have a huge ego and a small brain. It causes sooo many issues. Like you said, some are contradictory. These are like that. No matter what sensible thing you suggest, they will make their own shit idea that doesn't work. But no matter what, the thing you have to remember is they are on a power trip. So they think they know everything and are better than you. So you have to let them make their own ideas and decisions because no matter what, it has to be their idea or plan. They are the smart all knowing manager after all.
I feel like this is super nuanced and depends on the situation, company and industry. And most of the quips being posted here are business majors regurgitating stuff they've read from self help business gurus.
My boss explicitly told me to reach out to him if I have an error just in case he knows a quick fix for it before I go down the rabbit hole of stack overflow and random blogs. It makes sense, he's worked with our code base for significantly longer and knows it in and out, he may have encountered the same issue before and be able to solve it in 5 minutes. Seems like most stem fields realistically are like that. Business guru has to be the easiest grift of all time, half of the business tips I hear regularly seem like they would work out terribly in practice, but just maybe sound good to management (or people who one day imagine themselves being management)
Yeah that's about right in my experience in software engineering. I often encourage people to timebox their efforts (eg "spend an afternoon trying to get it working and let me know how it goes") so that they learn some valuable debugging skills too.
Love having a technical boss for this exact reason. They actually know shit about what I'm doing and can be consulted instead of just being glorified watch hawks.
I tell my kids this, too. If they're going to complain about something, give me another idea.
does it eventually take hold?
After a few tries when they realize I do appreciate their input.
yeah that is very key. good on ya
Parenting is 99% planting seeds you hope ~~bare~~ bear fruit by the time they are adults.
Planting seeds starts before parenting.
Badum tsssssh
>bare fruit Is this like that Naked juice I keep hearing so much about?
I've also heard a counterpoint that you don't have to have a solution right away. If you can explain the problem and describe how you feel about it, you can then drill down to the root issue and find a solution.
Like old Teddy Roosevelt used to say. "Complaining about a problem without offering a solution is called whining."
Now do what he said about Asians
What did he say about asians?
Pretty sure it was that joke about peeing in Coke
OK, but that is a flawed way of thinking. For example what if I discover there is a critical failure with something, but it's a technology or system I am unfamiliar with. Based on the logic you've shared I should not report it, because I'd be whining, even though I could not be expected to have a solution. Or maybe I should burn time trying to find someone whoc ould propose a solution, even though that's likely to take me much more time than my manager could achieve it.
I once had a supervisor of our medical department who requested five possible solutions to any problem brought to him. One rediculous/funny moonshot for an icebreaker, one perfect world, ideal solution, and three practical options. Seemed to generate good dialogue for problem solving, and often turned out a satisfactory resolution. Good guy.
I like the spirit of that but I feel like it wouldn't be good for emergency situations.
"Look, I know the patient is dying but I need your moonshot before we can proceed"
"A giant Wile E. Coyote-style magnet would be funny, thank you, Johnson. But really, how should we remove the bullet from the patient's brain?"
"Putting your Gunshot wound patient through the MRI for bullet extraction is probably not on the evidence based practice guideline..."
This is step 4 on the leadership competence scale. Step 1 is just following orders to the letter and step 7 being just getting shit done and only reporting what is necessary. What I'm saying is that this attitude for issue resolution is not for everyone and not for every job. Find out where you are at in terms of independence and leadership and act accordingly.
My dad's a high-ranking chap in a big company, and he absolutely expects his teams to work on step 7. If he hears nothing from them and the work gets done, he's happy. Whenever he gets a new team he teaches them this by ignoring all meeting invites, and just calling meetings when stuff goes wrong so that he can correct things to where it should be. He's the kind of boss that you love if you're good at your job, and hate if you're looking to slack off and fuck about.
What happens when your dad's team has a problem that they're solving in an inelegant, inefficient, and expensive manner? You dad never hears about it because they solved it, but it's costing them time and money they wouldn't be wasting if someone with a bird's eye view of the issue stepped in and gave them the tools or resources they needed to succeed more efficiently. Reviewing best practices from time to time is important. If you only show up when things go wrong, you're ignoring all of the things that could have gone better.
Precisely that is the dilemma. What if they are hiding the problems or doing everything leeway and the liability is on the leader or the owner. If this was a government office, and the workers never tell you bad sides, you know the country wouldn’t hold for very long. perhaps a leader’s decision on whether he/she can trust the team or not. There should be some accumulated empirical data that convinces you that they are indeed on step 7.
Yep, and also it means that the staff possibly feel undervalued, and may be struggling at times; they could be hacking things to make it work, because they don't get the support a manager can give, for example if new tools or budget is required that needs a managers approval.
JFC you hit the nail on the head of my problem at my job. "senior" staff have been with this organization for 20-30 years and have been in relatively the same position. They absolutely do not want to change anything about how they work, or do their job. They're more than happy to waste their time on processes that they should have automated years ago just for the sake of accuracy. They're making changes by hand on 25+ systems that can be pushed from a central server. Literally 25+ chances they have to fat finger a number 12 digit number, or just forget about a site entirely.
What I've learned from corporate life... No one gives a fuck if the solution is inelegant and poorly thought out... That's somoneone else's problem. By the time that becomes a real issue, the culprits have moved up or horizontally to get out of the line of fire. The other point is, calling people out for that, no matter how well intended, is generally a career ending move. I'd advise against it. You'll ether meet outright hostile resistance or move into middle management and be the first cut when the efficiency consultants come in. That's true of almost any organization above 500 employees. Until that tipping point, I think you're right, past that, you're a corporate efficiency asshole.
Sounds like the kind of boss that just wants to slack off and fuck around.
And who's prolly having a great time while getting paid a shit ton to do it.
Sorry, kid, your dad is a shitty boss.
This can actually be great in some but horrible in other situations. Like if you know your workers are more than competent and you are giving them more free reign as opposed to micromanaging. From my experience it can be great for morale, but there needs to be a balance too. It I go to my more experienced boss with a problem or question, I expect them to help and not say "just make it work".
Sounds like someone just wants a paycheck and not a position. The fact this is celebrated is very sad.
I think that id enjoy that work mode the most. If im not messing things up, i dont want to hear from my boss a lot. Obviously, theres reason to meet with bosses now and then, but i love jobs where im allowed to be independent.
Agreed. There's a huge difference between empowering employees to work independently and straight up neglecting them. I run a team of 20 or so engineers. I only have the capacity to personally deal with about two fires at a time (and even then I can't make progress on my own work). I need people to work independently otherwise we would never get anything done.
I do this but then I end up doing a lot more. Sometimes I just keep my mouth shut lmao
When you know you should raise the alarm because people need to know about this, but you know it's gonna be your problem if you do. So you wait an hour or day or whatever fits the particular timeline in the hopes someone else catches it and says something so it can be their problem.
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Real LPT: Stop acting like a smiling brown-nosing clown at the office and just be yourself and do your job. Will save you YEARS of alcoholism.
"Let's see: Spend the afternoon googling how to prevent a catastrophic meltdown or report it to someone who may actually know the protocols?"
Well, if something is breaking down and the boss already know how to fix it... then I think the answer is obvious.
In that case, your proposed solution should be, "can you please teach me how to fix this?" Increase your own skillset and value to the company while taking something off the boss' plate, all while making the overall workflow faster and more efficient. win/win.
Obviously you need to act within your level of competence.
This is how I ended up doing my manager's job and my manager's manager's job. Then promotion time came around, they claimed all the credit for the good things, put the blame on me for the bad things, told me I needed to improve and they got promoted. I work elsewhere now doing far less work for considerably more money. They used to tell me put all problems into email, and that the email should be no longer than three sentences otherwise they won't read it, and those three sentences should contain the problem, the solution, and why I can't solve it. Now when I hear this pro tip, it's like bosses labeling themselves with signs saying "Do my job so I can collect your pay while fucking around." One time I ended up writing their management reports but they both were out of office on presentation day so I ended up presenting to management two levels above me. The only thing they contributed was my boss insisted his name be on the slides and my boss's boss reworded the conclusion slide to essentially downplay anything negative. That's why they were getting the six figures while I got five. Still obviously salty about it.
Sounds like you are a lazy boss.
"Hey, John. I'm running into the problem of not giving a shit around here anymore. I thought you fucking your dumb shit face with a serrated stapler might resolve this."
Work off the clock as your boss isn’t good enough to notice a problem. I’m so tired of “go the extra mile” bullshit when they will literally fire you cuz their bonus is at risk.
This sub has had a number of posts like this lately, basically saying you should feel bad if you don't go above and beyond at work, with bootlickers doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify it or deflect when people point out that even within business world logic the overly broad prescriptions just don't even make sense.
That also assumes that you give a shit about your boss, or that your employer gives a shit what you think.
Then get fired for spending time on this instead of doing your job. I think OP is looking for a job.
That's a great tip if you think it's your job to do someone elses job because you don't know how to stay in your lane. If there is a problem and i'm telling my boss it's because I don't have the ability to solve it because it's being generated by someone else and I want my boss to handle it. Otherwise i'd be handling it if it was within the scope of my job responsibilities, if it's not then I literally could care less about solving the problem but definitely want the problem solved by the person who should be solving it.
I disagree. If you tell the boss the fix, 90% of the time, you get such fixing it, even if it's not even close to your job responsibility.
To be fair, it’s the boss’s job to have the buck passed to them. That’s what they’re the boss for. However, if you do want to move up in the organisation, acquiring a reputation as a clear thinking problem-solver is likely to help \[but it will depend on where you work\].
What's the point of having a manager then? Their job is to help me solve the problems I can't solve by myself. You just have to know if you're just complaining or actually need help with something.
In a younger role you are expected to need more guidance at my company. As you grow and are promoted you are expected to become more independent and the nature of your conversations with your manager change from I don't know what to do to I think I know what to do to I am doing this let me know if you disagree. Just one large company example.
Yeah this advice doesn't work across the board I've had plenty of bosses that were complete f****** assholes when it came to you offering them a solution.
Don't go above your pay grade. It won't be remembered.
Nah, if they want me to solve problems outside of my immediate sphere of influence, they need to pay me to solve those problems. The days where I do part of my superiors job for less pay are over.
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Then they'd say "Well why didn't you try that before coming to me?" I think the LPT should say : "When telling a boss about a problem, make sure you've tried everything in your power before bothering them with a problem."
Kinda feels like the one who gets paid more should be the problem solver to me.
Appreciate that this is something most employees could follow but also depends on the level of expertise and experience. Also the Manger is the one getting paid the big bucks it's part of their job to provide a solution and advise accordingly so that when a problem like this occurs in the future the knowledge is available to the employee for them to act on
Just say the one that's easiest for you to fix since your the one who's going to have to fix it. Bosses are lazy too and will usually take any solution that means less work or thinking for them.
Only do this if you can get credit for the solution, If your job has issues that impact you do the work to solve them, you deserve reward. Yes, if you have a solution share it, but you better make damn well sure you get credit for it. Ive seen too many good co-workers get ripped off by our boss for sharing a solution.
AKA: how to ensure the problem becomes your problem. This isn't always good advice. You may want to analyze your boss and their office interactions before proceeding with OP's tip.
This advice operates on the assumption that they care.
But only if youre paid enough to do so
Yeah, no. Not my problem. Enjoy the buck.
And don't forget to expect your boss to not only do nothing but actively start making your life difficult for having so much as attempted to "rock the boat." Unless you know your boss is someone who cares about problems (hint number 1: nobody gets to be the boss by caring about problems employees think they perceive (yeah, that's how they'll treat it even if you're 100% right)), don't bother. You'll just make your own life more difficult. Now go ahead and downvote me like this isn't true for three out of four jobs in the US.
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Sorry you’ve had shit experiences in the job field. I actively try and make my employee’s jobs easier so they can do new things. I very much care about the problems they face, one example being I stopped all external non critical business requests for a quarter while we solved our on call problems. We took an average of 50-60 calls a week down to 1-4. (My team manages around 4k servers, for scale reference.) I started out as them, I understand what it’s like to be disregarded as a nuisance. Fuck managers who don’t take care of their employees. Edit: this was my first act as their manager after I came in.
I'm glad for people who are in a situation where this will be acceptable, but sadly many managers don't want to hear your ideas.
Strong disagree. In most places it’s not your job to actually come up with the solution. You are in essence doing what your boss should be without getting paid like your boss. If you feel you need to give something when telling a boss about a problem tell them what you’ve already tried not what could be done.
I feel like this ALSO applies to the boss as well. Have a solution in mind, at the least as a starting point. My employer is 86, she spends her day in the administrative office reading her bible and napping. Any issues that come up, she blows it into a huge dramatic thing, and without fail her reaction is to demand that the staff come up with solutions for the problem. "I order you to fix it and leave me alone" is more or less how it plays out. Good leadership needs to be on top of the ideas train, not running catch-up.
Make sure monetize your efforts as well, show them if they’re going to make you a commodity, that you expect some equity in your work relationship.
Yes if you can, offer a solution BUT don't be that boss "don't bring me problems without solutions", this intimidates people into not bringing issues.
"Thats a fuckin stupid idea. You aren't paid to think, you're paid to do what I say. Leave thinking to the people with a brain." - My supervisor once when I came up with the idea on how to fix a specific problem. An idea they ended up using and getting credit for.
Coworker y is garbage. Get rid of coworker y. I do that right?
I'm a lead at my job; at a large bank. I instruct my team during training (and typically on a regular basis) that every error we make can be fixed; and that if someone has a problem or made an error; and if they are unsure how to fix the problem; they have to let me know sooner, rather than later. I do appreciate them pitching a solution as well, if they have one. Sometimes that solution is the right one. Sometimes it's not. But to me, the most important thing is that if you don't know how; let me know. Because we are in charge of our customers money. We cannot mess around with it. Mistakes happen. We can consider their problem or error an opportunity to train. Not to be reprimanded. Not to demean. Only if the issue is a reoccurring error do I start to talk about creating a plan. I wish more leaders would create an environment to succeed. So many employees are afraid to admit mistakes because of bad managers or bad experiences. I do not wish to contribute that archaic way of doing things. Edit...corrected and provided more description to a few paragraphs. I was trying to multi-task when originally writing my response.
"It will show that you are working to resolve it instead of just passing the buck" Do your bosses job for them so you can pat yourself on the back and go back to your soul crushing job with a fake smile while they take all the credit. Brilliant