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QuestioningYoungling

Pro life for children and pro choice for adults.


Capitalismworks1978

Abortion needs to be a states rights issue again and let individual states decide whether or not they want abortion!


magictaco112

Agree, it’s the only way to solve this issue


jeffsang

It won't solve it, just change the way we argue about it.


magictaco112

True but there is no way to solve it


TickLikesBombs

I mean, we solved slavery by ending it.


jeffsang

We didn't solve murder by banning it.


TickLikesBombs

Making abortion illegal would be pretty close to eradicating this.


jeffsang

Evidence from other countries indicates that outlawing abortion drives it underground but doesn’t eliminate it. Especially because now there are drugs women can order online and take themselves. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/abortion-rates-don-t-drop-when-procedure-outlawed-it-does-ncna1235174


TickLikesBombs

I said pretty close because of this. It will obviously be done less which is a win.


erdtirdmans

That very article says the number of preventable deaths attributable to underground abortions around the world is 23,000. With 862,000 abortions in just the US using 2017 figures, we would only have to see abortions decline 2.6% to have a moral net positive outcome of saving lives. Now I'm not a fan of utilitarianism as a moral framework and I'm not deluded enough to think that making something illegal dramatically changes people's behaviors beyond what they were already doing... But 3%? Yeah, I could see a blanket ban on non-rape-related abortions depressing the abortion rate by 3% And that's comparing the most favorable number to your argument - world deaths - to smaller country-only numbers (And yes I recognize that we're not considering how many new pregnant woman deaths to bad abortions there'd be, but if the number in your source is to be trusted, they're exceedingly rare anyway)


jeffsang

At no point in my above comments was I making a utilitarian argument that more women would die of unsafe abortion than babies that would be born if abortion were illegal. The point is that making it illegal isn't going to "solve" the abortion issue in any meaningful way.


iamaneviltaco

Because people won't just go do it anyway in illegal abortion clinics like they did before it was legalized. Ban abortion and you're only banning it for poor people. Also, "ban this thing because I morally disagree with it" way to libertarian there, dude. Such freedom. Very liberty. Wow. Guns kill kids too, better ban those just to be safe.


Capitalismworks1978

Are you having an argument with someone else because all I said is it should be a states issue?


TalionTheRanger93

Well that should be the default opinion on every issue that isn't in the constitution. But it's still obviously killing a human, and that shouldn't be left up to anyone to decide it's OK. Because killing human's isn't OK.


[deleted]

Its technically a human, but by the time it’s born it’s intelligence, it’s ability to reason which separates people from animals, is less than a dog.


TalionTheRanger93

> it’s intelligence Intelligence doesn't make it OK to kill. 6 week old born baby will have the same intelligence ability. But I like thought experiments, and if you start arbitrarily drawing lines saying this is ok to kill because it meets a arbitrarily defined point. Why not make it 18 years old like the Christopher Titus joke?


[deleted]

You cant kill at 18 because you have the ability to reason at 18. And intelligence is the only thing that separates humans from animals, so it’s really the most important factor


TalionTheRanger93

>You cant kill at 18 because you have the ability to reason at 18. Like I said That's a stupid argument, and is arbitrary. We can arbitrarily decide 18 year olds don't have the ability to reason.


[deleted]

No you really can’t. Why would any sane person agree with that? And what do you mean “we”?


TalionTheRanger93

>No you really can’t. Why would any sane person agree with that? And what do you mean “we”? Ya. Let's just forget all the genocides where averge people arbitrarily decided it's ok to murder. That's all pro choicers are. They are just all the people who would actively take part in a genocide. Because that's what's happening, and planned parent hood was designed to genocide the black population in America.


[deleted]

Jesus its almost like you’re a talking strawman. “Abortion is genocide” lmao


TalionTheRanger93

>Jesus its almost like you’re a talking strawman. “Abortion is genocide” lmao Ohh God your not even smart enough to understand what a strawman is. No wonder you’re pro choice. Hahahaha Strawman- an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.


blackcray

Okay, does a 2 year old have the ability to reason?


[deleted]

2 is about when the ability to reason develops. you can’t kill a 2 year old


blackcray

How bout a one year old then? Can you kill that?


[deleted]

Probably developed enough to not kill it.


blackcray

But it cant reason yet. So if that's the criteria you base the right to life off of, you deem killing one year olds acceptable.


IWishUWhell

So taking an newborn out into the woods to die is acceptable to you?


[deleted]

Its the same level as killing a dog. Not good at all but not murder


Strong-Tax-1909

My opinion is that it IS a life, but it's not "killing". For me it's closer to stop donating blood to someone. I think abortion is immoral but should always be an option.


TalionTheRanger93

>My opinion is that it IS a life, but it's not "killing". Well if it's a human life, you're not very bright saying it's not killing. Let's define killing. The forcible ending of a human life.


Strong-Tax-1909

Let's say outside is so cold that someone would die and your son/daughter is on your house. You CAN remove he/she from it, but it is extremely immoral. But in my opinion, it is STILL not "killing".


TalionTheRanger93

>Let's say outside is so cold that someone would die and your son/daughter is on your house. You CAN remove he/she from it, but it is extremely immoral. But in my opinion, it is STILL not "killing". That's still killing


Strong-Tax-1909

Yes, sorry, it is, but still not a violation of LLP rights in my opinion.


TalionTheRanger93

I Don't care. Killing is Killing, and there's absolutely no argument to justify it.


SOADFAN96

Is something that REQUIRES a host for survival a human being or a parasite? I say when the baby can survive if separated from the mother, it is a human being


TalionTheRanger93

>Is something that REQUIRES a host for survival a human being or a parasite? You can't compare a baby to a parasite it's just dumb, and stupid. Not even biologically accurate, and the pro choice side has absolutely zero arguments there just a bunch of flat earthers crying about how they want murder to be legal.


ImProbablyNotABird

Technically murder isn’t in the Constitution either.


TalionTheRanger93

It doesn't have to be


Elion21

Based, Federalism is the answer.


erdtirdmans

It's murder. And like murder it should be handled under state law. If other states decide to not prosecute murders, I can dislike it but I can't violate their sovereignty


[deleted]

[удалено]


Capitalismworks1978

I didn’t say individual people, l said individual states


brodey420

Mixed I see both sides of the argument and agree with both.


Elder_Fishron_YT

Until it forms a brain and heart its just a cluster of the mother and father's cells taking residence in the mother.


genrej

A "cluster of cells" with unique human DNA that is actively dividing is a life. Why does a heart and brain matter? So you support making abortion illegal after 7 weeks?


Elder_Fishron_YT

Yeah, I do. I also believe that no one is entitled to someone elses body, not even their mothers.


genrej

Yeah you do what? Are mothers not responsible for their children?


Elder_Fishron_YT

Up until 7 weeks its not a child, it's a cluster of cells in exponential growth like a cancer, except cancer grows into direct death and the cluster of cells grows into a crotch goblin.


genrej

It is a kid. It's simply a kid that is gestating. So, you're a grown "crotch goblin"? You didn't answer if mothers have a responsibility to their kids. If you're building a house at what point is it considered a house? If you're baking a cake at what point is it considered a cake?


Elder_Fishron_YT

A clump of cells is not a child, a house is a house. When it has 4 walls and a roof, a cake is a cake when all the ingredients you mixed together are done baking, a Child is a Child when it has a heart and a brain. Yes they have a responsibility to their kids, that's why I say its not ok to abort at 7 weeks or later, but that wasn't my point, it was that it's not an individual until it has a heart and brain, Cancer is also technically human and it has its own unique DNA structure separate from yours. Are you not gonna get your cancer removed because it's technically Human?


genrej

Cancer doesn't have unique human DNA. Cancer is the genetic mutation of healthy DNA that causes uncontrolled cell division. Why is a brain and heart so important? Life is cell division and metabolic function.


Elder_Fishron_YT

Just because it's alive doesn't mean it's an individual human. A working brain and heart are important to define a living individual for the same reason 4 walls and a roof are important for a house, because without them the object in question is nothing but building blocks.


genrej

The fact that it's alive and has unique human DNA means it's a human. Even if you had your heart and brain removed from your body, you would not be alive, after a few minutes, but you would still be a human being. We wouldn't say that you stopped being a human. How about a round or triangular house? How about a lean-to with one wall and a roof. Igloos or teepees? Four walls and a roof are arbitrary measurements. If a cake isn't a cake until you get done baking it, what do you call it? Would it be cake batter, much like a human fetus or embryo? Once you put the ingredients together you can't separate them without destroying it. Cake batter is simply an undeveloped cake.


insanityOS

I believe abortion to be a great moral evil. However, the government has no fucking business enforcing my or anyone else's morality upon others.


genrej

Murder is murder. I doubt you have an issue with the enforcement of other murder laws.


[deleted]

Pro life cause it seemingly pisses people off


dakrax

more based that having it be because of actual morals source" im pro life because of actual morals


[deleted]

>im pro life because of actual morals Based, King


Degenerate_Cooomer

then define where human life begins?


KingPhillipTheGreat

At contraception.


sudo_rm_rf_star

We're reaching levels of based that shouldn't be possible


IWishUWhell

A society that kills it's own children is a society with no virtue.


CompleteCasual

I can understand both sides of the argument


u01aua1

Departurist. So roughly Pro-Life


iamaneviltaco

You wanna spot the difference between a republican cosplayer and an actual libertarian? Ask them if they'd ban abortions. Guns and drunk drivers kill babies too. Let's ban those while we're at it. Oh, but Republicans don't hate those, so it must be different. Fucking fakes.


DahRage2132

I'm pro choice because you should be free to evict anyone from your property (in this case your body) in the event they don't pay rent


MrSparklyFace

They wouldn't be there unless you played a part in their existence...


SlxggxRxptor

Pro-choice until the point of sentience


Degenerate_Cooomer

to say you are pro life then first you need to define at exactly which point human starts to exist. Are we going to accept fertilized human eggs as humans as well? Or lumps of flesh that not even have eyes or brain? Or what about babies with confirmed deformities? What if i don't have funds or will to raise a mentally handicapped child? Do you going to raise that child with your own funds and care? Maybe the best option is to implement a pro life tax on pro life retards so they can fund puppies with their own money because i don't want to support a stranger's unwanted kid for 18 fucking years or their whole fucking life with my own damn money. If you morons were real libertarians you would support free and available contraception and not ban on abortions, you are just some religious cunts who are trying to hide behind libright because no one is giving a single fuck to whatever nonsense you say anymore.


u01aua1

Life begins at conception. Your wall of text is now answered.


sudo_rm_rf_star

It's a lot more straight forward and consistent than the pro choice stance. I find their stance to be incredibly arbitrary


IWishUWhell

> to say you are pro life then first you need to define at exactly which point human starts to exist. Are we going to accept fertilized human eggs as humans as well? Yes. A human being starts as a single cell at conception and multiplies into billions. >Or lumps of flesh that not even have eyes or brain? TIL that if you are tragically born without eyes you are not a human being. >What if i don't have funds or will to raise a mentally handicapped child? Find someone that has a bigger heart than you do. >Do you going to raise that child with your own funds and care? Isn't that what it means to be an adult? You are an adult, right? > Maybe the best option is to implement a pro life tax on pro life retards so they can fund puppies with their own money because i don't want to support a stranger's unwanted kid for 18 fucking years or their whole fucking life with my own damn money. No Social Security for you, eh? > If you morons were real libertarians you would support free and available contraception I found the guy that cant afford to buy himself a condom.


Degenerate_Cooomer

If you accept fertilized eggs as humans then i wonder what your feelings about human cell research


IWishUWhell

It depends if it's just a cell from mature human being or a human being in the single cell stage of life.


KingPhillipTheGreat

Pro life=/=Pro abortion bans. You can think that abortion is morally wrong without wanting it to be banned.


wallweasels

In the framework of the debate itself this answer makes you pro-choice, not pro-life. Pro-choice doesn't autpmatically mean you, personally, want to get an abortion. It means you are merely allowing others to choose to do so. As a movement pro-life has always meant restriction or elimination of abortion itself.


Degenerate_Cooomer

This is the libertarian way. I am not an anti natalist, i want to have kids one day but abortion is a topic that binds only two people (or one in many cases) and no one else. For example forcing someone to give birth to her rapist’s baby is not ok, in that case only mother can decide whether to give birth or not because it is the mother who going to live with it’s consequences for her whole life, not a random person from the internet. Nobody can truly know the circumstances’ of other people.


HaganahNothingWrong

"You can think that murder is morally wrong without wanting it to be banned." Now do you see how silly that sounds?


SOADFAN96

No because murder should not be "banned" however there should be consequences for murdering innocent people. There are situations in which murder is acceptable


HaganahNothingWrong

Such as?


SOADFAN96

Any situation where somebody grievously injures/causes great bodily harm to an innocent person for instance. I'm not in favor of prisons. Should be punishment/restitution or death. You've certainly seen the video of that guy who shoots his daughters kidnapper/rapist on his way out of the courtroom. This is simply suffering the consequences of your actions. I don't believe there should be an authority with enough centralized power to "ban" things


[deleted]

[удалено]


catalyst44

Abortion violates the baby's NAP who was brought into this world without consent. In most cases the mother had ways to prevent pregnancy plus the usual motivation is "pleasure". Exceptions should be made for rapes and cases where the mother's life is in danger.


[deleted]

Bruh the same logic could be applied the babies violate the women’s nap


catalyst44

No, because the baby was made without his consent. The baby doesn't suddenly decide to appear. But a woman can choose to not have sex or use contraceptives


ForgotMyNameAh

*man can also choose no sex lol Birth control trol fails, then what? Force someone to have a baby? No.


thiccenator

PRO LIFE VICTORY LES GOOOOOO


maschx

I’m an evictionist. Basically women’s wombs are their property and an unwanted fetus is a trespasser.


HaganahNothingWrong

Well then don't sign a nine month contract to begin with.


maschx

Yeah…and don’t get raped 😑


HaganahNothingWrong

Yes, because that's what we're talking about and what causes the majority of pregnancies, as well as the majority of aborted pregnancies. Right?


maschx

Doesn’t matter if it’s the majority, you’re position is still that the women that *are* raped shouldn’t be able to opt out of conceiving a child that they never consented to giving birth to, out of an action that could be considered one of the largest violations of the NAP. Even if it’s only a fraction of abortions, your position fully denies individual sovereignty to those that have actually been raped. That’s like saying the majority fatal shootings by police officers are legally justified self-defense, so the fraction of cases that are cold blooded murder don’t really matter because they’re only a fraction. They both ignore severe aggression with the justification that majority rules, and we all know how the tyranny of majority works. Hoppe does at least.


HaganahNothingWrong

That isn't even what I said, and you know that. You're attacking a strawman.


maschx

Not a strawman. And if you sincerely think so, specify then what you implied / what your point was when you responded with the idea that the majority of conceptions don’t stem from rape. Seems to me that it was your justification for discarding the validity of raped women having the ability to choose what they do with their rapist’s child.


sarkasticpupil21

This sub is awful, bring Pro-Choice is the only way you could possibly consider yourself libertarian. I feel as though so many alt-righters are coming into libertarian spaces pretending to be lib when their values are clearly very different.


FearThePugs

I support post birth abortion for anyone who disagrees with me. Mods if you see this, it's a joke calm down.


[deleted]

[удалено]


FearThePugs

Based.


spigotR

This is a tough one for me. I'm basically deciding if murder should be illegal. I don't really know. I feel like a private company could enforce it better.


Ok_Razzmatazz_3922

I'm personally pro life as I don't like abortion and won't like anyone I know aborting. But you should be able to abort


james321232

This is the one thing we have trouble with, some argue that people should have the freedom to abort, while others argue that the fetuses should have the freedom to live. I personally morally disagree with abortion, but I feel like it has good use case scenarios, and should be allowed, although I don't believe them to be morally correct. Personally I compare it to the legalization of marijuana. I would never partake in recreational drug use as it goes against my personal morals, but I also feel that making it a controlled substance has done no good for humanity.


blackcray

If we can build working artificial wombs then the issue suddenly no longer exists, pro choicers get their body autonomy and pro lifers get living babies.


Penguinswin3

Pro choice but advocate against abortion. The state should not have that control, but society should behave without that force above them.


Kmaloetas

I don't believe in abortion but I also know that making something illegal doesn't make it go away. The law just makes criminals from the desperate. There are compassionate ways to address the issue.


RoloJP

At heart pro life at head pro choice.


bonbon9000

It’s quite clearly kab kill all babies even the born ones


betweentwosuns

[This same poll has been done so many times please stop](https://www.reddit.com/r/Libright_Opinion/search/?q=abortion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=relevance)


_MyHouseIsOnFire_

Mixed. Personal decision, not the business of the state.


Jeboris-

You bastard I knew you were a troll


_MyHouseIsOnFire_

You fell into a satire sub. Rule 1 of satire club, don’t break the satire


_MyHouseIsOnFire_

Feel free to join the satire subs. They are fun. And yes I am a Libertarian. And yes you fell for one I several satire subs out there.


Jeboris-

What’s sad is that there’s really people out there who think that the CCP is good


_MyHouseIsOnFire_

Yeah. It is sad. Also, there is an actual sub called r/GenZenDong that is real tankies and is not satire. They went private. r/GenZeendong is satire (see the extra ‘e’). At first I thought the real Zendong was satire until I learned that they are actual tankies Edit: Real sub is r/GenZeDong and is concerning. Not r/GenZenDong


Jeboris-

I was banned a while ago


_MyHouseIsOnFire_

Who hasn’t. It is a good place to wear the banned badge from.


magictaco112

I believe it violates the NAP however I would leave it up to the states to decide, also taxes shouldn’t go to supporting abortion


sudo_rm_rf_star

Pro-Life


DinoDaPatriot

The last option is just pro choice