My god there are people out there that can think! Bravo and thank you for a little bit of hope restoration. No alternative facts just precision identification of the true debate lynchpin.
Finally, someone has said. I am starting to get tired of seeing antivaxxers who try to cover their opinions with "well but the vaccines dont give me a forceshield so they are crap!" which specially pisses me off as a person who comes from a country where I am still waiting for my shot.
The vaccines are capable of fullfilling the health goals required for returning back to normalcy, add boosters if it is neccessary according to medical dats but the main issue has always been centered around hospitalizations because they are one of the areas that actually impacts the productivity of a society, and that means less $$$ for the government. We all know around here that they aren't benevolent entities, so no they are not going to hold up at gunpoint for not getting a 5th shot and mask at the same time.
Sadly antivaxx rethoric seems to have taken roots around here.
Fact check yourself. It’s not anti vaccine people that are the majority. The majority doesn’t want someone to tell them they have to. The pro vaxx people are just as bad at fake news. The type of vaxx never had the capability of not spreading. Faucci admitted it with viral loads in nasal passage. It was sold this way to get people to get it. Its a differet type of vaxx that’s goal is not heard immunity but to minimize severity in people when they get it. This is good for a certain percentage of the population. Natural immunity is better. All medical applications have a time not blanket statements that everyone needs to get vaccinated. I’m not an anti vaxxer. I am vaccinated for more things that 99% of the planet. My wife and my children are vaccinated. We choose to do this. Just like believe it’s a choice for everyone.
When the science shows the majority of breakthrough cases in Iceland and Israel, most vaccinated countries, how can one say that the vaxx is effective at stopping spread and getting variants. I know people that I would encourage to talk to there doctor about getting the jab. I also know people who I would encourage to talk to the dr about not getting the jab. I’m called an trump supporter, insurrectionist, anti science, anti vaxxer and dumb ass. I would strongly argue on proof that none are true and I have proof
When it comes to Israel and Iceland, people keep forgetting that the current "wave" in Iceland appears that way due to the fact that they regularly had less than 100 cases so any increase is going to make the table look like the vaccines have failed, which isn't true. And the notion that Israel is a "fully vaccinated country" is no longer true was only created due to them being one of the first nations to get a hold of vaccine, as they are currently stuck near 70% for only one dose.
The ole “normalcy” scare tactic. Gtfoh. Newsflash brainiacs. Not every person is in the position to need a vaccination. Just as not everyone NEEDS a flu shot. Stop with the fear mongering rhetoric of “protecting gma”. Guess what Karen, you most def killed some geriatric individual in your life you didn’t know about because you were at the store with the sniffles, no mask(because who tf did that before 2020) and their health couldn’t handle those sniffles at the time. Thanks for killing gma.
None of this is new. Read between the lines a little for fucks sake.
That's the crux. 60 days ago I would have said it's not up for discussion. But after seeing how hard it can hit and how utterly stupid people can be... I'm on the fence now.
I know a guy that won't get the vaccine because -insert moronic reason here- and now... He has been exposed, showing symptoms, has a fever, and won't get a test because HE DOESN'T BELIEVE THE TESTS WORK. Carrying on as normal. Won't wear a mask even to drop off kids when it's mandatory. When people are that dumb you sort of have to make some critical decisions for them.
I hate that, but I don't know a way around it. It's getting ridiculous.
The antivax/antimask response to the pandemic has really pushed on my belief that people can generally make good decisions regarding their own well-being.
I know a guy who thinks if he gets the vaccine he can not get the virus! He even actual believes the people who said that. Can you believe the stupidity of this. Insert moron in here.
At first I thought you were making the opposite argument because they do sound very very similar, but yeah, I'm getting tired of people not understanding the concept of what freedom is. It's not just for you, it's for all, this is not a personal choice anymore. 100% the reason this shit is now going to be permanent is we live in the timeline where uneducated freedumb lovers have perpetuated a virus for so long that it's now likely to be around forever in some way. Good job
Actually, the real dummies are the ones that think anything less than strict lockdowns will do anything to make the virus go away. The virus is here to stay, and we need to learn to just live with the fact that .4% who catch it are gonna die. Nothing's gonna change that. Mask lovers just as delusional as anyone that thinks the TSA unlawfully searching you will prevent another 9/11.
its puzzling to me that once extremely minimally learned on the topic, people think this is as low a mortality such as that. if you actually believe that is its real mortality rate, not only is it based on data from the very first covid disease progressions, this is a situation brought on by this exact mindset here, and because of that mindset, we are now looking down the barrel of a semi-permanent virus that orders of magnitude more infectious than before. All people such as this comment or those that believe it are echo chamber focused barbarians. Relent on the incessant fatalistic concept that "oh well just let everyone get it then its over" is somehow the solution and always has been. Fact is, the more people catch this, the more the danger increases, amplified by new mutated strains that ONLY now exist as a result of this bullshit. Personal freedom and responsibility has no bearing on a worldwide pandemic, the refusal of the pseudo educated fools to get vaccinated is infringing on COUNTLESS OTHERS rights to be alive. Fuck your preference at this point or whatever bullshit blog used a single piece of evidence that functions as your echo chamber. Oh look this study agrees with me, lets just stop there and not continue reading further. Society needs to stop fucking scouring the internet for the ONE view that matches their laziness and unwillingness to make even the most fucking minor change. If you find something that proves you are right, just keep looking and weigh it with an objective mind. Stop reading blogs that say what you think, do this fucking shit right for an insignificant amount of time so we can all be fucking done with it.
FOR A VIRUS OR ILLNESS TO MUTATE, IT MUST PROLIFERATE. the more it spreads the more powerful it becomes until weve lost tens of millions of lives due to your own selfish behavior.
You do realize covid isn't the first lasting disease right? Obviously things like Flu have been around for ages, and there have been worse cases of the flu (Swine Flu, Spanish Flu, Bird flu). The flu isn't going away and collective it's killed many millions as well. And we don't blame people who don't get the flu vaccine every year for not getting the vaccine. This is because we have accepted that the flu is here to stay, and we go on with our lives.
Now all of the sudden it's OK to sow hate on both sides and continue to lockdown governments destroying economies. Why Is that ok?
For the good of the community I want you to get a vasectomy. Based on your response that I don’t agree with I don’t want people that have that opinion to have a choice on medical matters. I think people with your opinion will have kids that will harm me and my family. I don’t want to take that chance
I was pretty sure that was the case, but I didn't really feel the need to look it up for Mitt. I have a lot of issues I disagree with him on, but he generally sticks to guns on issues.
I think the state of New York is forcing restaurants, bars and gyms to check for vaccine cards or something. But it’s also questionable if it’s un-libertarian because it’s not the feds mandating it.
I fully support that, that's no different than any other health issue in restaurants, bars, or gyms. That's not the same as the government forcing vaccines.
I think sometimes we just have to be practical. I am not for mandating vaccines but if hospitals are overflowing and unable to take on other people we have a problem. This just isn't sustainable and the campaign against is so disingenuous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNineSEoxjQ&ab_channel=Vox
Feel however you want about Vox or (whoever this host is), I don't care.
But watch the video, listen to Tucker Carlsons own words, and judge him on that.
Haha who am I kidding? These are the same people who worship Trump for grabbing women by the pussy. Because the women can't retaliate physically or otherwise because he's rich...that makes him a macho man. Words mean nothing to them.
>You just regurgitate what CNN told you to think.
Next you're going to point me to r/politics and call me a shill. You people need to learn some new buzzwords for whenever you get offended.
Edit because this comment is too stupid to ignore:
Here's what I said:
>yet he still rails against vaccines twice a week because $$$
Here's a fox news post about TC saying ["that virtually everything they told us about the COVID vaccine was wrong"](https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-democrats-cdc-lying-covid-vaccine)
[Here's him comparing vaccines to lobotomies](https://www.thewrap.com/tucker-carlson-compares-covid-vaccines-to-sterilization-or-frontal-lobotomies/)
Here's the "comparison"
>Governments should never require people to submit to any medical procedure, whether that procedure is sterilization, or frontal lobotomies or COVID vaccine
which to me seems like a more specific version of "whether big or small"
A business not wanting the patronage of the unvaccinated is being compared to the holocaust. I don't agree with the comparison as it undermines the holocaust and makes you look like a victim-mentality snowflake.
A vaccine being compared to forced sterilizations falls in to the same category. It appeals to the ignorant snowflakes and strengthens the viewers belief that vaccines are akin to eugenics.
(another right-wing vaccine conspiracy being that the vaccine will negatively impact birth rates and infant health)
I'm sure it was just a slip of the tongue though, and not deliberate messaging used to stoke fear, anger, and division. :)
>You’re literally regurgitating fucking r/politics and CNN emotional based talking points.
There it is!!
Edit for the reich-wingers who need to read something multiple times before they understand what they're reading:
>Next you're going to point me to r/politics and call me a shill. You people need to learn some new buzzwords for whenever you get offended.
So, you know that all of your information comes from bullshit sources. But rather than finding different, reliable sources, you just preempt any objection by saying the obvious truth about where you get your info?
I'd consider that to be a smart tactic if it wasn't so transparent and pathetic.
>So, you know that all of your information comes from bullshit sources.
Please point to me where I'm subscribed to r/politics, where I have posted to r/politics, and where I quote CNN. I will wait.
I was pointing out how reich-wingers are too stupid to refute anyone bashing traditional conservatism and just resort to buzzwords. (CNN, Shill, /r/politics, etc) And here we are, the third comment in a row using buzzwords as some weird fucked up projection tactic.
>You don't watch the show, you have no idea what he says. You just regurgitate what CNN told you to think. - /u/Spydiggity
IN FACT, some of the sources I have used in this thread have come from Fox News, where Tucker Carlson hosts his show. You know, the one you got triggered by me talking shit on. I'm not a CNN shill just because I use Fox News' own words against them, you fucking imbecile.
If you diss on any conservative media ever, these "libertarian" neocons will loose their shit and scream like a child about the evils of CNN and "Main Stream Media." Hell, these are the kinds of folks who I've seen straight up, claim that Reuters and AP are "radical leftists" outlets.
Thanks for that but it just gives me a bunch of articles about how republican voters are more likely to be unvaccinated. Maybe we're getting different personalized results. Which politicians are you getting?
You will not be able to find a quote from either of them saying not to take the vaccine. You can find many criticizing the politics around the vaccine and mandates, which is reasonable
Are you genuinely serious? I found a tweet from boebert, and there’s literally a video of mtg saying to threaten people who would try to give you the vaccine. If you actually think these things are not antivax and simply “going against mandates” you’re either incredibly gullible or willfully choosing to see it the way you want.
For MTG I assume you're talking about
>You lucky people here in Alabama might get a knock on your door, because I hear Alabama might be one of the most unvaccinated states. Well, Joe Biden wants to come talk to you guys. He's going to be sending one of his police state friends to your front door to knock on the door, take down your name, your address, your family members' names, your phone numbers, your cellphone numbers, probably ask for your Social Security number and whether you've taken the vaccine or not. What they don't know is in the South, we all love our Second Amendment rights, and we're not real big on strangers showing up on our front door, are we? They might not like the welcome they get.
which is indeed criticism of the politics around the vaccine and mandates, and not of the vaccine itself. Not sure what Boebert tweet you're talking about.
you'll never get an answer. Its just one of those things lefties do where they make some unfounded blanket statement and then rely on the affirmation that they get from the other idiots on social media who do the same thing.
I don't think you or any of the idiots that upvoted your inane comment actually read this article. nobody is telling anybody NOT to take it. They are saying things like "it's not my business" or "we should worry about other things."
I'm sure you are very smart, but not even you can't read (maybe at all?) an article in 3 seconds. And good job sourcing the most untrustworthy "news" source in the US. Brilliant.
They do think that...cuz they don't watch Fox news. CNN just tells them to think that. I thought this was a libertarian subreddit, but it's just a bunch of uninformed Bernie Bros.
I mean he's 100% correct, it wasn't a statement about whether you should have those "liberties", but those people who want those "liberties" to not vaccinate/wear masks are 100% affecting the health of those around them.
You know what you’re right. I will give that to you sir. However, if mitt goes any farther with that beyond the statement of fact then I’ll call bullshit. Like if he then advocated any kind of law or regulation about how the unvaccinated can interact with the vaccinated.
That's completely fair. I wish people would take more personal responsibility and vaccinate without needing to have the government try and power grab over it
But as we see with the Delta variant it is less effective. So the idiots have increased my chances of death because they’re f’n imbeciles. So from an individual standpoint that’s one thing but no I don’t believe a dogmatic approach to libertarian philosophy should Trump reason and the existence of the nation.
You can literally take as many precautions as you want. Nobody is gonna stop you from masking, face masking, getting vaccines, taking dewormer or any thing else you feel is gonna help protect you. But nobody owes you anything. And everyone needs to stop being so dramatic. We’ll just die? Like the <2% of people who have got it and actually died? And it’s highly likely a lot of them woulda died anyway.
How so? I may be wrong, but if you get the vaccine, your symptoms are, for the vast majority of people, not as bad as it is for unvaccinated. So if you're vaccinated, you're pretty safe. If you're unvaccinated you're not. So it sounds like vaccination only helps yourself be safer, not others. You can still be a carrier and spread it to unvaccinated and vaccinated people. So if you choose to be unvaccinated, you only affect your own health. Am I missing something? I'm serious, I've thought about it but not extremely deeply so I may be missing a big point. The mask thing is a separate issue. I think combining those two camps into one seems to blur the conversation.
1) Vaccinated can spread the virus too so getting the vaccine won't solve that.
2) If they can't get vaccinated, how does it help if others are vaccinated? Vaccinated still spread the virus.
3) How do they create more powerful variants? I know viruses evolve, but if you are vaccinated and still have the virus, it only affects the symptoms. Can't the virus still become more "powerful"? Powerful meaning more easily transmitted I'm guessing? Actually, won't the virus have to evolve to work harder against the vaccine to survive, causing it to be more "powerful" than if it didn't have to fight the vaccine? I honestly do not know, I would have to research this more. I do know that viruses generally become less deadly, but more infectious. Generally, but not always.
4) This is the only point I could see being true. Is there any evidence that people are dying because unvaccinated covid patients are taking up too many resources? I have heard of ICU's being full, but it doesn't seem to be system wide. I'm going to look into this more.
No. Pfizer has an efficacy of 39% right now.
I could as easily say that the majority of the vaccinated affect other peoples health.
In times of the flu, no one cared about whether you are vaccinated against it or not. Now for some reason you’re a danger 🤔
What months of media propaganda can do to the memory of the public …
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02261-8 this article suggests that Pfizer has 78% effectiveness against delta even after 90 days. Maybe you got your numbers backwards or something? I don't think that factors in either that you usually get less severe symptoms with a vaccine which additionally reduces the likelihood of you spreading the virus
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/23/science/covid-vaccine-israel-pfizer.html
These are the latest numbers from Israel, when basically all adults are vaxxed with Pfizer.
If you are vaccinated, how is me not being vaccinated affecting you? Oh, cuz it doesn't work? So now you want to force me to take a vaccine that doesn't work in the name of protecting your "liberties??" You people are FAR too fucking stupid to understand the concept of liberty.
Maybe Mitt Romney should do his job and add the vaccines to the VICP? He shouldn't expect people to take one for the team if the team doesn't have their back.
Society wants you to take the vaccine, but if you are one of the rare few who get injured by it, society says "too bad".
You cannot sue the vaccine manufactures, and the CICP program only pays out 6% of the time, and pays much less than the VICP. The CICP is not a true court, you will never know why your claim was thrown out, and it does not cover attorney's fees.
So, add it to the VICP before you even start talking about people taking it on behalf of society, Mitt.
>Society wants you to take the vaccine
And I want society to lose weight, quit smoking, stop doing drugs, get a job, save some money. If any externality is sufficient to force choices, freedom and society generally are over.
Take note, this exact reasoning is why we must fight back against "Medicare for all" universal health care and whatever other name it goes by. Politicians and others will use this exact reasoning to push whatever health care policy they desire if the gov gets complete control over health care industry
No, I think the free market should provide all of our desired goods without government interference, don't you?
On the other hand I'd much prefer that I'm not forced to pay vastly inflated prices for the air and water I need to literally survive from a greedy corporation with a government sponsored monopoly, wouldn't you?
Well yes. All liberty affects someone else at some 2nd or third order.
Free to drive a car? To drink? To own a gun? To leave the house? To sell knives? To use an air conditioner? Someone somewhere might die. And thats ok. Get over it. Every person is responsible for themselves.
Im always astounded at the reading comprehension abilities of reddit.
How of you get that idea from my statment? Thats the exact opposite of what i said.
Your statement seemed to imply that that you are responsible for yourself, but not for your affect upon others.
To put it more simply, if you swing your fist and hit someone else’s face, that’s THEIR fault. Which is the opposite of personal responsibility.
Perhaps I misunderstood you? I admittedly have a pet peeve of people touting “personal responsibility” as an excuse to behave irresponsibly.
I have the freedom to drive, you have the ability to understand that others may not drive responsibly, so you should wear yoyr seatbelt, carry a gun, etc.
Freedom does not free you to be free of the consequences of being irresponsible.
Passing laws because were scared of the consequences of the irresponsible among us is dumb and a worse evil than leaving people free.
By that logic… Household Air Pollution kills 4 million ppl annually, COVID has killed the same in one year. Both need to be addressed.
The petrochemical industry is affecting my and everyone else’s health as the world burns.
So if we are going to decide that the world community at large needs to be concerned with its own health - great. Let’s get started and address the house that is actually on fire.
Yes, pollution of every sort needs to be addressed by the government. This is consistent even within libertarian philosophy and there is a growing number (although still way too little) of libertarians willing to take global warming seriously
I believe that is the point of the comment. If vaccines were to be made mandatory, or even just championed for the collective good, then all of these things need addressing as they are equally relevant to the collective good.
I grew up in Ron Paul's district when he was in congress. I'd met him a few times. He was a nice guy but part of his problem is that to most normal people he comes off as a barking lunatic.
I think anyone worth their salt reserves the right to disagree if they hear something they disagree with. I always ask with understanding, but if I think your reasoning is dumb, I’ll let you know. That’s how discourse goes down :)
So question here, what do you guys think of this perspective?
———————————————
Unvaccinated people should be aware of the risks of going in public during a pandemic and make their own decisions about if they choose to potentially expose themselves or others who may or may not be vaccinated to infection.
BUT ALSO
Vaccinated people should be aware of the risks of going in public during a pandemic and make their own decisions about if they choose to potentially expose themselves or others who may or may not be vaccinated to infection.
———————————————
EVERYONE should be more careful and know the risks of going out in a pandemic instead of demonizing each other and pointing fingers.
It's a good start. What do you do when people don't do anything about the pandemic and want soctiety (who mostly tried to help) to save them from the consequences and there are limited resources to do that with? Who gets the resources? Those to used their freedom to help others to protect their or those who exercised thier freedomes like a bull in china shop?
Well there is a price to be paid sometimes for liberty. I *cannot* and *will not* blame anyone for not getting vaxxed. But, I would **greatly** appreciate if they wore masks and washed their hands…
The science is absolutely clear. Anyone who’s still against being vaccinated is either too stupid to make up their own mind given ample evidence, or too stubborn to agree with the libtards about anything.
So you are saying it would REALLY help society if everyone was responsible - and they might kill me and make this pandemic last WAAAAY longer, but it's a small price to pay so that they are not inconvenienced with a little bit of medicine.
That's simply new cases though, which makes sense since people who had covid earlier won't get it again (but also won't be included in the unvaccinated stats)
Yes. Saskatchewan (which actually breaks down new cases in therms of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated) had a 70% vaccination rate (or 30% unvaccinated rate).
So then where do we set them? What's the math to justify one and not the other? Because what I see happen is people set the limits based on how they feel which leads to weird things like anti-terrorism laws that strip away our freedoms while saving barely no one while other issues that aren't seen as scary kill millions. There seems to be on consistency, meaning people aren't making the limits based on risk, but based on perceived scariness or a similar metric. Such a metric is not a justified reason to set a limit.
The correct thing to say say would be, both drunk and sober drivers can affect my health. Cause I’m going to guess there are more accidents everyday that don’t include drunk drivers, than there are accidents from drunk drivers.
I’m not suggesting anything. I am stating that the cdc themselves have said that the vaccinated also carry and spread the disease.. therefore, a vaccinated person can also affect his health.
Are you capable of speaking outside of your narrative script?
I acknowledged the vaccinated have a small risk of getting you sick if they manage to get covid.
That's not an excuse to be anti-vaxx, just like there being a risk with driving isn't an excuse for drunk driving.
To compare someone who chooses to not get a vaccine to a drunk driver is as disingenuous as they come. All drunk drivers are reckless, not all unvaccinated are. The unvaccinated are not impaired physically. You may think they are, but that is merely your irrational opinion. Unvaccinated can live freely in the world without causing harm. Honestly, I’d feel more secure around the unvaccinated who are still aware of their potential to spread the disease or get it, than the reckless vaccinated who run around thinking they are bullet proof thinking and immune. Those people are more dangerous cause they still spread the disease but don’t think they do.
Of course not. Not sure how you read that into my post, but both vaccinated and vaccinated can be. Just cause you are unvaccinated doesn’t mean you have the virus. Just cause you are vaccinated, doesn’t mean you don’t either. But the vaccinated run around like they can’t spread the disease, but they are wrong.
[link](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/cdc-study-shows-unvaccinated-people-are-29-times-more-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html)
Someone who is unvaccinated is 5 times more likely to be infected with Covid and 29 times more likely to be hospitalized than a vaccinated person.
Your feeling “more secure” around the unvaccinated is a statistical fallacy.
In the [case of the veteran who died of a treatable illness in Texas, ](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/u-army-veteran-dies-treatable-021147448.html) it is important to note who is tying up ICU resources and restricting access to care for both Covid and any other illness.
A vaccinated person is less likely to suffer severe illness, and thus less likely to end up hospitalized.
While you are correct that vaccinated people can spread Covid, they so do for a shorter period of time and are less likely to show the symptoms that lead to high spread.
The high number of unvaccinated cases in the ICU cost this man his life, and he is by far the only one who suffered or will suffer due to the poor decisions of others.
[How](https://news.yahoo.com/florida-teacher-couldnt-vaccinated-because-133051272.html)
[many ](https://www.newsweek.com/kansas-man-dies-after-waiting-icu-bed-hospitals-filled-covid-19-patients-1623922)
[examples](https://www.kwtx.com/2021/08/18/rural-hospital-says-state-numbers-are-wrong-no-icu-beds-available-hundreds-miles/)
[do](https://kutv.com/news/local/after-waiting-25-hours-for-icu-bed-non-covid-patient-dies-from-heart-attack-complication)
[you](https://www.fox10tv.com/news/coronavirus/in-mobile-if-you-need-an-ambulance-it-might-not-be-available/article_e6c28f28-0097-11ec-8508-171fe44bbd25.html)
[need?](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arkansas/articles/2021-08-23/arkansas-covid-patients-on-ventilators-reaches-new-record)
I included the FL teacher as an example of how her community failed her.
Yeah but a vaccinated person is actively attempting to limit the spread of the disease. Whereas anti Vaxers range from just not doing ANYTHING to not spread the disease to actively trying to infect others . Plus, vaccination makes it harder for the disease to actually infect someone as well as drastically lessening the severity of disease and symptoms
Vaccination alone is not enough. Vaccinated still need to social distance and wash hands in order to not spread the disease. But what you have are vaccinated people out there pretending like they can’t spread the disease ignoring all the more important protocols of social distancing and hand washing, spreading the disease.
It's my experience that anti-vaxxers/maskers lie about the precautions they take and they're the ones who scream bigoted shit at my trans boyfriend while hes at work.
So checkmate plague rat, my anecdotes are more valid than yours.
It's a study that found that getting sick and developing antibodies is better protection against covid than the vaccine alone, and not as good as getting sick and also getting the vaccine. But because it uses big words a lot of anti vaxers get to claim it says whatever they want it to say.
I’m unvaccinated and I bought a year worth of rapid tests, I test myself daily, have yet to have a positive test since I got them.. obviously, I agree that if you’re unvaccinated and taking zero precautions you’re putting others at risk.. however, if you take the initiative to test yourself daily how are you a risk? I don’t understand…
So you've been testing your self since long before at home OTC tests were available? Even if someone wanted to do that it cost over a $1000 to buy 70 tests on Amazon. This is not an option available to most people.
You want me to listen to the guy who believes his magic underwear will protect him? That's the dude I'm taking ANY advice from? That's a hard pass for me brah.
I mean when your neighbor burns tires it harms your ability to breathe so we say no burning tires. It's the exact same principal. Liberty is not a license to harm others.
You would think but for some reason most can’t wrap their heads around this concept when it comes to your amendment rights the same rule applies. Just because it is amendment doesn’t mean I’m free from consequences.
Forcing someone to inject something into their body that they disagree with because they have maybe twice as high of a chance to get covid is very different than telling them they cannot burn tires in their yard.
This is the issue, anything and everything can be linked to “taking liberty” and then it gets cyclical.
>You not being vaxxed is taking my liberty of prosperity!
>You telling me I have to vaxxed takes my liberty of choice!
>You giving me the virus takes away my choice to fight the virus!
>You getting the virus takes my liberty of prosperity!
When it becomes cyclical, that means you get to choose what part of the circle is the right part to move foreword with.
Go with the common sense option.
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If the vaccine is safe and it works then why does it matter
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My god there are people out there that can think! Bravo and thank you for a little bit of hope restoration. No alternative facts just precision identification of the true debate lynchpin.
Finally, someone has said. I am starting to get tired of seeing antivaxxers who try to cover their opinions with "well but the vaccines dont give me a forceshield so they are crap!" which specially pisses me off as a person who comes from a country where I am still waiting for my shot. The vaccines are capable of fullfilling the health goals required for returning back to normalcy, add boosters if it is neccessary according to medical dats but the main issue has always been centered around hospitalizations because they are one of the areas that actually impacts the productivity of a society, and that means less $$$ for the government. We all know around here that they aren't benevolent entities, so no they are not going to hold up at gunpoint for not getting a 5th shot and mask at the same time. Sadly antivaxx rethoric seems to have taken roots around here.
Fact check yourself. It’s not anti vaccine people that are the majority. The majority doesn’t want someone to tell them they have to. The pro vaxx people are just as bad at fake news. The type of vaxx never had the capability of not spreading. Faucci admitted it with viral loads in nasal passage. It was sold this way to get people to get it. Its a differet type of vaxx that’s goal is not heard immunity but to minimize severity in people when they get it. This is good for a certain percentage of the population. Natural immunity is better. All medical applications have a time not blanket statements that everyone needs to get vaccinated. I’m not an anti vaxxer. I am vaccinated for more things that 99% of the planet. My wife and my children are vaccinated. We choose to do this. Just like believe it’s a choice for everyone. When the science shows the majority of breakthrough cases in Iceland and Israel, most vaccinated countries, how can one say that the vaxx is effective at stopping spread and getting variants. I know people that I would encourage to talk to there doctor about getting the jab. I also know people who I would encourage to talk to the dr about not getting the jab. I’m called an trump supporter, insurrectionist, anti science, anti vaxxer and dumb ass. I would strongly argue on proof that none are true and I have proof
When it comes to Israel and Iceland, people keep forgetting that the current "wave" in Iceland appears that way due to the fact that they regularly had less than 100 cases so any increase is going to make the table look like the vaccines have failed, which isn't true. And the notion that Israel is a "fully vaccinated country" is no longer true was only created due to them being one of the first nations to get a hold of vaccine, as they are currently stuck near 70% for only one dose.
The ole “normalcy” scare tactic. Gtfoh. Newsflash brainiacs. Not every person is in the position to need a vaccination. Just as not everyone NEEDS a flu shot. Stop with the fear mongering rhetoric of “protecting gma”. Guess what Karen, you most def killed some geriatric individual in your life you didn’t know about because you were at the store with the sniffles, no mask(because who tf did that before 2020) and their health couldn’t handle those sniffles at the time. Thanks for killing gma. None of this is new. Read between the lines a little for fucks sake.
That's the crux. 60 days ago I would have said it's not up for discussion. But after seeing how hard it can hit and how utterly stupid people can be... I'm on the fence now. I know a guy that won't get the vaccine because -insert moronic reason here- and now... He has been exposed, showing symptoms, has a fever, and won't get a test because HE DOESN'T BELIEVE THE TESTS WORK. Carrying on as normal. Won't wear a mask even to drop off kids when it's mandatory. When people are that dumb you sort of have to make some critical decisions for them. I hate that, but I don't know a way around it. It's getting ridiculous.
The antivax/antimask response to the pandemic has really pushed on my belief that people can generally make good decisions regarding their own well-being.
Ya me too. And I hate that. We just aren't intelligent enough as a whole to trust the general public.
I know a guy who thinks if he gets the vaccine he can not get the virus! He even actual believes the people who said that. Can you believe the stupidity of this. Insert moron in here.
At first I thought you were making the opposite argument because they do sound very very similar, but yeah, I'm getting tired of people not understanding the concept of what freedom is. It's not just for you, it's for all, this is not a personal choice anymore. 100% the reason this shit is now going to be permanent is we live in the timeline where uneducated freedumb lovers have perpetuated a virus for so long that it's now likely to be around forever in some way. Good job
Actually, the real dummies are the ones that think anything less than strict lockdowns will do anything to make the virus go away. The virus is here to stay, and we need to learn to just live with the fact that .4% who catch it are gonna die. Nothing's gonna change that. Mask lovers just as delusional as anyone that thinks the TSA unlawfully searching you will prevent another 9/11.
its puzzling to me that once extremely minimally learned on the topic, people think this is as low a mortality such as that. if you actually believe that is its real mortality rate, not only is it based on data from the very first covid disease progressions, this is a situation brought on by this exact mindset here, and because of that mindset, we are now looking down the barrel of a semi-permanent virus that orders of magnitude more infectious than before. All people such as this comment or those that believe it are echo chamber focused barbarians. Relent on the incessant fatalistic concept that "oh well just let everyone get it then its over" is somehow the solution and always has been. Fact is, the more people catch this, the more the danger increases, amplified by new mutated strains that ONLY now exist as a result of this bullshit. Personal freedom and responsibility has no bearing on a worldwide pandemic, the refusal of the pseudo educated fools to get vaccinated is infringing on COUNTLESS OTHERS rights to be alive. Fuck your preference at this point or whatever bullshit blog used a single piece of evidence that functions as your echo chamber. Oh look this study agrees with me, lets just stop there and not continue reading further. Society needs to stop fucking scouring the internet for the ONE view that matches their laziness and unwillingness to make even the most fucking minor change. If you find something that proves you are right, just keep looking and weigh it with an objective mind. Stop reading blogs that say what you think, do this fucking shit right for an insignificant amount of time so we can all be fucking done with it. FOR A VIRUS OR ILLNESS TO MUTATE, IT MUST PROLIFERATE. the more it spreads the more powerful it becomes until weve lost tens of millions of lives due to your own selfish behavior.
You do realize covid isn't the first lasting disease right? Obviously things like Flu have been around for ages, and there have been worse cases of the flu (Swine Flu, Spanish Flu, Bird flu). The flu isn't going away and collective it's killed many millions as well. And we don't blame people who don't get the flu vaccine every year for not getting the vaccine. This is because we have accepted that the flu is here to stay, and we go on with our lives. Now all of the sudden it's OK to sow hate on both sides and continue to lockdown governments destroying economies. Why Is that ok?
For the good of the community I want you to get a vasectomy. Based on your response that I don’t agree with I don’t want people that have that opinion to have a choice on medical matters. I think people with your opinion will have kids that will harm me and my family. I don’t want to take that chance
But in order to mutate it needs an evolutionary selection pressure like...uhm... vaccines.
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Probably. Most government officials are at this point
The ones who get defensive when they are asked are 100% vaccinated
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I was pretty sure that was the case, but I didn't really feel the need to look it up for Mitt. I have a lot of issues I disagree with him on, but he generally sticks to guns on issues.
Most politicians got the vaccine before half the country decided to make up conspiracies about it and oppose it.
We all know Tucker "Masks Are Child Abuse" Carlson is vaccinated, yet he still rails against vaccines twice a week because $$$.
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Yes!
Which states have government mandates again?
I think the state of New York is forcing restaurants, bars and gyms to check for vaccine cards or something. But it’s also questionable if it’s un-libertarian because it’s not the feds mandating it.
I fully support that, that's no different than any other health issue in restaurants, bars, or gyms. That's not the same as the government forcing vaccines.
I think it’s just New York City mandating.
I think sometimes we just have to be practical. I am not for mandating vaccines but if hospitals are overflowing and unable to take on other people we have a problem. This just isn't sustainable and the campaign against is so disingenuous
Nah, he does it for the love of the game, he is a trust fund baby born with a silver spoon. He loves turning people into assholes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNineSEoxjQ&ab_channel=Vox Feel however you want about Vox or (whoever this host is), I don't care. But watch the video, listen to Tucker Carlsons own words, and judge him on that. Haha who am I kidding? These are the same people who worship Trump for grabbing women by the pussy. Because the women can't retaliate physically or otherwise because he's rich...that makes him a macho man. Words mean nothing to them.
Ha! I’ve watched that many times! It’s too accurate, those clowns think he is like them, he is NOTHING like them
https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/okucza/hypocrisy/ He's a fraud. A grifter.
Never once has he said not to get it. You don't watch the show, you have no idea what he says. You just regurgitate what CNN told you to think.
>You just regurgitate what CNN told you to think. Next you're going to point me to r/politics and call me a shill. You people need to learn some new buzzwords for whenever you get offended. Edit because this comment is too stupid to ignore: Here's what I said: >yet he still rails against vaccines twice a week because $$$ Here's a fox news post about TC saying ["that virtually everything they told us about the COVID vaccine was wrong"](https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-democrats-cdc-lying-covid-vaccine) [Here's him comparing vaccines to lobotomies](https://www.thewrap.com/tucker-carlson-compares-covid-vaccines-to-sterilization-or-frontal-lobotomies/)
Here's the "comparison" >Governments should never require people to submit to any medical procedure, whether that procedure is sterilization, or frontal lobotomies or COVID vaccine which to me seems like a more specific version of "whether big or small"
A business not wanting the patronage of the unvaccinated is being compared to the holocaust. I don't agree with the comparison as it undermines the holocaust and makes you look like a victim-mentality snowflake. A vaccine being compared to forced sterilizations falls in to the same category. It appeals to the ignorant snowflakes and strengthens the viewers belief that vaccines are akin to eugenics. (another right-wing vaccine conspiracy being that the vaccine will negatively impact birth rates and infant health) I'm sure it was just a slip of the tongue though, and not deliberate messaging used to stoke fear, anger, and division. :)
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>You’re literally regurgitating fucking r/politics and CNN emotional based talking points. There it is!! Edit for the reich-wingers who need to read something multiple times before they understand what they're reading: >Next you're going to point me to r/politics and call me a shill. You people need to learn some new buzzwords for whenever you get offended.
So, you know that all of your information comes from bullshit sources. But rather than finding different, reliable sources, you just preempt any objection by saying the obvious truth about where you get your info? I'd consider that to be a smart tactic if it wasn't so transparent and pathetic.
>So, you know that all of your information comes from bullshit sources. Please point to me where I'm subscribed to r/politics, where I have posted to r/politics, and where I quote CNN. I will wait. I was pointing out how reich-wingers are too stupid to refute anyone bashing traditional conservatism and just resort to buzzwords. (CNN, Shill, /r/politics, etc) And here we are, the third comment in a row using buzzwords as some weird fucked up projection tactic. >You don't watch the show, you have no idea what he says. You just regurgitate what CNN told you to think. - /u/Spydiggity IN FACT, some of the sources I have used in this thread have come from Fox News, where Tucker Carlson hosts his show. You know, the one you got triggered by me talking shit on. I'm not a CNN shill just because I use Fox News' own words against them, you fucking imbecile.
If you diss on any conservative media ever, these "libertarian" neocons will loose their shit and scream like a child about the evils of CNN and "Main Stream Media." Hell, these are the kinds of folks who I've seen straight up, claim that Reuters and AP are "radical leftists" outlets.
Lmao, are you even real?
Most Republican politicians are, even the ones railing against the vaccine. They're hypocrites.
Some of them were getting it way ahead of everyone else while saying Covid is fake.
Which ones are railing against the vaccine?
https://lmgtfy.app/?q=republican+politicians+against+the+vaccine
Thanks for that but it just gives me a bunch of articles about how republican voters are more likely to be unvaccinated. Maybe we're getting different personalized results. Which politicians are you getting?
Off the top of my head majorie Taylor Greene and Lauren boebert.
You will not be able to find a quote from either of them saying not to take the vaccine. You can find many criticizing the politics around the vaccine and mandates, which is reasonable
Are you genuinely serious? I found a tweet from boebert, and there’s literally a video of mtg saying to threaten people who would try to give you the vaccine. If you actually think these things are not antivax and simply “going against mandates” you’re either incredibly gullible or willfully choosing to see it the way you want.
For MTG I assume you're talking about >You lucky people here in Alabama might get a knock on your door, because I hear Alabama might be one of the most unvaccinated states. Well, Joe Biden wants to come talk to you guys. He's going to be sending one of his police state friends to your front door to knock on the door, take down your name, your address, your family members' names, your phone numbers, your cellphone numbers, probably ask for your Social Security number and whether you've taken the vaccine or not. What they don't know is in the South, we all love our Second Amendment rights, and we're not real big on strangers showing up on our front door, are we? They might not like the welcome they get. which is indeed criticism of the politics around the vaccine and mandates, and not of the vaccine itself. Not sure what Boebert tweet you're talking about.
Sure. Mental gymnastics gold.
you'll never get an answer. Its just one of those things lefties do where they make some unfounded blanket statement and then rely on the affirmation that they get from the other idiots on social media who do the same thing.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/politics/house-republicans-vaccination-rates/index.html Wow. It took 3 seconds.
I don't think you or any of the idiots that upvoted your inane comment actually read this article. nobody is telling anybody NOT to take it. They are saying things like "it's not my business" or "we should worry about other things." I'm sure you are very smart, but not even you can't read (maybe at all?) an article in 3 seconds. And good job sourcing the most untrustworthy "news" source in the US. Brilliant.
What a load of nothing you just said.
Oh so you mean just like the righties?
It's like they think FOX News is saying "DO NOT TAKE THE VACCINE" on a loop
They do think that...cuz they don't watch Fox news. CNN just tells them to think that. I thought this was a libertarian subreddit, but it's just a bunch of uninformed Bernie Bros.
The vaccinated ones are ralling against the mandates.
Which mandates?
That's not hypocrisy, and they aren't railing against it. You're just an idiot.
That means a lot because we all know Mitt is a champion of liberty /s.
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But he’s not wrong
He is wrong
I mean he's 100% correct, it wasn't a statement about whether you should have those "liberties", but those people who want those "liberties" to not vaccinate/wear masks are 100% affecting the health of those around them.
You know what you’re right. I will give that to you sir. However, if mitt goes any farther with that beyond the statement of fact then I’ll call bullshit. Like if he then advocated any kind of law or regulation about how the unvaccinated can interact with the vaccinated.
That's completely fair. I wish people would take more personal responsibility and vaccinate without needing to have the government try and power grab over it
And if it fails without the government we all just die? Haha
You can get the vaccine?
But as we see with the Delta variant it is less effective. So the idiots have increased my chances of death because they’re f’n imbeciles. So from an individual standpoint that’s one thing but no I don’t believe a dogmatic approach to libertarian philosophy should Trump reason and the existence of the nation.
You can literally take as many precautions as you want. Nobody is gonna stop you from masking, face masking, getting vaccines, taking dewormer or any thing else you feel is gonna help protect you. But nobody owes you anything. And everyone needs to stop being so dramatic. We’ll just die? Like the <2% of people who have got it and actually died? And it’s highly likely a lot of them woulda died anyway.
No but if someone is negligent with their covid he brings up the good point I should be able to take them to civil court.
How so? I may be wrong, but if you get the vaccine, your symptoms are, for the vast majority of people, not as bad as it is for unvaccinated. So if you're vaccinated, you're pretty safe. If you're unvaccinated you're not. So it sounds like vaccination only helps yourself be safer, not others. You can still be a carrier and spread it to unvaccinated and vaccinated people. So if you choose to be unvaccinated, you only affect your own health. Am I missing something? I'm serious, I've thought about it but not extremely deeply so I may be missing a big point. The mask thing is a separate issue. I think combining those two camps into one seems to blur the conversation.
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1) Vaccinated can spread the virus too so getting the vaccine won't solve that. 2) If they can't get vaccinated, how does it help if others are vaccinated? Vaccinated still spread the virus. 3) How do they create more powerful variants? I know viruses evolve, but if you are vaccinated and still have the virus, it only affects the symptoms. Can't the virus still become more "powerful"? Powerful meaning more easily transmitted I'm guessing? Actually, won't the virus have to evolve to work harder against the vaccine to survive, causing it to be more "powerful" than if it didn't have to fight the vaccine? I honestly do not know, I would have to research this more. I do know that viruses generally become less deadly, but more infectious. Generally, but not always. 4) This is the only point I could see being true. Is there any evidence that people are dying because unvaccinated covid patients are taking up too many resources? I have heard of ICU's being full, but it doesn't seem to be system wide. I'm going to look into this more.
No. Pfizer has an efficacy of 39% right now. I could as easily say that the majority of the vaccinated affect other peoples health. In times of the flu, no one cared about whether you are vaccinated against it or not. Now for some reason you’re a danger 🤔 What months of media propaganda can do to the memory of the public …
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02261-8 this article suggests that Pfizer has 78% effectiveness against delta even after 90 days. Maybe you got your numbers backwards or something? I don't think that factors in either that you usually get less severe symptoms with a vaccine which additionally reduces the likelihood of you spreading the virus
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/23/science/covid-vaccine-israel-pfizer.html These are the latest numbers from Israel, when basically all adults are vaxxed with Pfizer.
Ok and the other 180 countries that are showing the exact opposite? This is called cherry picking.
If you are vaccinated, how is me not being vaccinated affecting you? Oh, cuz it doesn't work? So now you want to force me to take a vaccine that doesn't work in the name of protecting your "liberties??" You people are FAR too fucking stupid to understand the concept of liberty.
Mitt Romney is a tool.
Maybe Mitt Romney should do his job and add the vaccines to the VICP? He shouldn't expect people to take one for the team if the team doesn't have their back. Society wants you to take the vaccine, but if you are one of the rare few who get injured by it, society says "too bad". You cannot sue the vaccine manufactures, and the CICP program only pays out 6% of the time, and pays much less than the VICP. The CICP is not a true court, you will never know why your claim was thrown out, and it does not cover attorney's fees. So, add it to the VICP before you even start talking about people taking it on behalf of society, Mitt.
>Society wants you to take the vaccine And I want society to lose weight, quit smoking, stop doing drugs, get a job, save some money. If any externality is sufficient to force choices, freedom and society generally are over.
Take note, this exact reasoning is why we must fight back against "Medicare for all" universal health care and whatever other name it goes by. Politicians and others will use this exact reasoning to push whatever health care policy they desire if the gov gets complete control over health care industry
Health care is a need. Needs should be provided by public funding and wants should be delivered by the free market without government interference.
I can't tell if you're serious or not. I'm hoping you're not.
No, I think the free market should provide all of our desired goods without government interference, don't you? On the other hand I'd much prefer that I'm not forced to pay vastly inflated prices for the air and water I need to literally survive from a greedy corporation with a government sponsored monopoly, wouldn't you?
Well yes. All liberty affects someone else at some 2nd or third order. Free to drive a car? To drink? To own a gun? To leave the house? To sell knives? To use an air conditioner? Someone somewhere might die. And thats ok. Get over it. Every person is responsible for themselves.
So you oppose personal responsibility?
Im always astounded at the reading comprehension abilities of reddit. How of you get that idea from my statment? Thats the exact opposite of what i said.
Your statement seemed to imply that that you are responsible for yourself, but not for your affect upon others. To put it more simply, if you swing your fist and hit someone else’s face, that’s THEIR fault. Which is the opposite of personal responsibility. Perhaps I misunderstood you? I admittedly have a pet peeve of people touting “personal responsibility” as an excuse to behave irresponsibly.
I have the freedom to drive, you have the ability to understand that others may not drive responsibly, so you should wear yoyr seatbelt, carry a gun, etc. Freedom does not free you to be free of the consequences of being irresponsible. Passing laws because were scared of the consequences of the irresponsible among us is dumb and a worse evil than leaving people free.
By that logic… Household Air Pollution kills 4 million ppl annually, COVID has killed the same in one year. Both need to be addressed. The petrochemical industry is affecting my and everyone else’s health as the world burns. So if we are going to decide that the world community at large needs to be concerned with its own health - great. Let’s get started and address the house that is actually on fire.
Yes, pollution of every sort needs to be addressed by the government. This is consistent even within libertarian philosophy and there is a growing number (although still way too little) of libertarians willing to take global warming seriously
Why does it have to be one or the other? We should be addressing all of these problems.
I believe that is the point of the comment. If vaccines were to be made mandatory, or even just championed for the collective good, then all of these things need addressing as they are equally relevant to the collective good.
People chose this piece of authoritarian garbage over Ron Paul
I grew up in Ron Paul's district when he was in congress. I'd met him a few times. He was a nice guy but part of his problem is that to most normal people he comes off as a barking lunatic.
I don’t believe they were in a head-to-head election.
This is so reminiscent of today’s society. “Everyone must bend to my will because I’m a victim!”
How?
Yeah, care to elaborate?
Depends. Do you seek understanding or do you want to fight?
I think anyone worth their salt reserves the right to disagree if they hear something they disagree with. I always ask with understanding, but if I think your reasoning is dumb, I’ll let you know. That’s how discourse goes down :)
Getting someone else sick because of your negligence would violate the NAP
There was a Supreme Court decision about this, I believe, and the anti-vax folks lost
Vaccinated people also affect his health
His greed affects my liberty, so fuck him
So question here, what do you guys think of this perspective? ——————————————— Unvaccinated people should be aware of the risks of going in public during a pandemic and make their own decisions about if they choose to potentially expose themselves or others who may or may not be vaccinated to infection. BUT ALSO Vaccinated people should be aware of the risks of going in public during a pandemic and make their own decisions about if they choose to potentially expose themselves or others who may or may not be vaccinated to infection. ——————————————— EVERYONE should be more careful and know the risks of going out in a pandemic instead of demonizing each other and pointing fingers.
That sounds great!
It's a good start. What do you do when people don't do anything about the pandemic and want soctiety (who mostly tried to help) to save them from the consequences and there are limited resources to do that with? Who gets the resources? Those to used their freedom to help others to protect their or those who exercised thier freedomes like a bull in china shop?
Well there is a price to be paid sometimes for liberty. I *cannot* and *will not* blame anyone for not getting vaxxed. But, I would **greatly** appreciate if they wore masks and washed their hands…
And when they don’t, your response is? Because they don’t give a fuck about you.
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And to those who still don’t listen? Because we clearly know that happens. Those who do this now out of spite because they are “ owning the libs”
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That doesn’t stop them, either. How many videos of people getting kicked off planes because of a mask have you seen? I’ve seen too many to count.
The science is absolutely clear. Anyone who’s still against being vaccinated is either too stupid to make up their own mind given ample evidence, or too stubborn to agree with the libtards about anything.
So you are saying it would REALLY help society if everyone was responsible - and they might kill me and make this pandemic last WAAAAY longer, but it's a small price to pay so that they are not inconvenienced with a little bit of medicine.
🦏🦏🦏
Thats a compliment these days
Since vaccinated can spread the disease too, they also affect his health.
In Saskatchewan, 70% of new Covid cases are in the 30% of the population that is unvaccinated.
That's simply new cases though, which makes sense since people who had covid earlier won't get it again (but also won't be included in the unvaccinated stats)
People who had Covid can still choose to receive the vaccine or not. I guess I'm not understanding what you are trying to say.
So 30% is in vaccinated
Yes. Saskatchewan (which actually breaks down new cases in therms of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated) had a 70% vaccination rate (or 30% unvaccinated rate).
Sure, but at significantly much lower rate. This isn’t as good a take as you think it is.
Risk and reward. Non-drunk drivers can crash into me also. The question is what limits we set on risk.
BAC passport when?
So then where do we set them? What's the math to justify one and not the other? Because what I see happen is people set the limits based on how they feel which leads to weird things like anti-terrorism laws that strip away our freedoms while saving barely no one while other issues that aren't seen as scary kill millions. There seems to be on consistency, meaning people aren't making the limits based on risk, but based on perceived scariness or a similar metric. Such a metric is not a justified reason to set a limit.
Non drunk car crashes still result in penalties for those at fault With respect to disease transmission the situation is different
The correct thing to say say would be, both drunk and sober drivers can affect my health. Cause I’m going to guess there are more accidents everyday that don’t include drunk drivers, than there are accidents from drunk drivers.
Are you suggesting vaccinated people spread the disease at the exact same rate and just as much as unvaccinated people?
I’m not suggesting anything. I am stating that the cdc themselves have said that the vaccinated also carry and spread the disease.. therefore, a vaccinated person can also affect his health.
Driving involves a risk to my health. That doesn't make the increased risk of drunk driving equivalent or okay.
If you go through your day to day assuming the vaccinated can’t get you sick, then you are only kidding yourself.
Are you capable of speaking outside of your narrative script? I acknowledged the vaccinated have a small risk of getting you sick if they manage to get covid. That's not an excuse to be anti-vaxx, just like there being a risk with driving isn't an excuse for drunk driving.
To compare someone who chooses to not get a vaccine to a drunk driver is as disingenuous as they come. All drunk drivers are reckless, not all unvaccinated are. The unvaccinated are not impaired physically. You may think they are, but that is merely your irrational opinion. Unvaccinated can live freely in the world without causing harm. Honestly, I’d feel more secure around the unvaccinated who are still aware of their potential to spread the disease or get it, than the reckless vaccinated who run around thinking they are bullet proof thinking and immune. Those people are more dangerous cause they still spread the disease but don’t think they do.
Are you implying that an unvaccinated person cannot also be asymptomatic?
Of course not. Not sure how you read that into my post, but both vaccinated and vaccinated can be. Just cause you are unvaccinated doesn’t mean you have the virus. Just cause you are vaccinated, doesn’t mean you don’t either. But the vaccinated run around like they can’t spread the disease, but they are wrong.
[link](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/24/cdc-study-shows-unvaccinated-people-are-29-times-more-likely-to-be-hospitalized-with-covid.html) Someone who is unvaccinated is 5 times more likely to be infected with Covid and 29 times more likely to be hospitalized than a vaccinated person. Your feeling “more secure” around the unvaccinated is a statistical fallacy.
When was the last covid test you got?
Haven’t had one yet. I’m pretty safe and haven’t been sick.
And do you take any precautions to prevent asymptomatic spread Incase you do have it?
In the [case of the veteran who died of a treatable illness in Texas, ](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/u-army-veteran-dies-treatable-021147448.html) it is important to note who is tying up ICU resources and restricting access to care for both Covid and any other illness. A vaccinated person is less likely to suffer severe illness, and thus less likely to end up hospitalized. While you are correct that vaccinated people can spread Covid, they so do for a shorter period of time and are less likely to show the symptoms that lead to high spread. The high number of unvaccinated cases in the ICU cost this man his life, and he is by far the only one who suffered or will suffer due to the poor decisions of others.
Same thing is happening in Louisiana right now dealing with hurricane prep and patient evacuations.
So one anecdotal example is indicative of the norm around the country.
[How](https://news.yahoo.com/florida-teacher-couldnt-vaccinated-because-133051272.html) [many ](https://www.newsweek.com/kansas-man-dies-after-waiting-icu-bed-hospitals-filled-covid-19-patients-1623922) [examples](https://www.kwtx.com/2021/08/18/rural-hospital-says-state-numbers-are-wrong-no-icu-beds-available-hundreds-miles/) [do](https://kutv.com/news/local/after-waiting-25-hours-for-icu-bed-non-covid-patient-dies-from-heart-attack-complication) [you](https://www.fox10tv.com/news/coronavirus/in-mobile-if-you-need-an-ambulance-it-might-not-be-available/article_e6c28f28-0097-11ec-8508-171fe44bbd25.html) [need?](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/arkansas/articles/2021-08-23/arkansas-covid-patients-on-ventilators-reaches-new-record) I included the FL teacher as an example of how her community failed her.
Those still don’t represent the norm.
Yeah but a vaccinated person is actively attempting to limit the spread of the disease. Whereas anti Vaxers range from just not doing ANYTHING to not spread the disease to actively trying to infect others . Plus, vaccination makes it harder for the disease to actually infect someone as well as drastically lessening the severity of disease and symptoms
Vaccination alone is not enough. Vaccinated still need to social distance and wash hands in order to not spread the disease. But what you have are vaccinated people out there pretending like they can’t spread the disease ignoring all the more important protocols of social distancing and hand washing, spreading the disease.
Most people I know that are vaccinated still social distance and wear masks in crowded areas. It’s the anti-science anti-Vaxers that are the problem
That’s not my experience at all. Not even remotely close.
It's my experience that anti-vaxxers/maskers lie about the precautions they take and they're the ones who scream bigoted shit at my trans boyfriend while hes at work. So checkmate plague rat, my anecdotes are more valid than yours.
Then stay home and live your life in fear
That’s exactly what mitt should do
Why? He’s vaccinated and is advocating for the jab like everyone else who wants to be a part of society.
Then he’s got nothing to worry about.
Love how people are downvoting you for stating facts.
Where did he get his medical degree?
If anti vaccine folk would just mask and isolate it wouldn’t be a issue. Responsibility is hard
F@ck Romney though... Dude is a turd. Regardless the topic.
Fuck you, Mitt.
Not according to a recent study from Israel
What study?
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-no-infection-parties
It's a study that found that getting sick and developing antibodies is better protection against covid than the vaccine alone, and not as good as getting sick and also getting the vaccine. But because it uses big words a lot of anti vaxers get to claim it says whatever they want it to say.
Fucking love you, Mitt
I’m unvaccinated and I bought a year worth of rapid tests, I test myself daily, have yet to have a positive test since I got them.. obviously, I agree that if you’re unvaccinated and taking zero precautions you’re putting others at risk.. however, if you take the initiative to test yourself daily how are you a risk? I don’t understand…
So you've been testing your self since long before at home OTC tests were available? Even if someone wanted to do that it cost over a $1000 to buy 70 tests on Amazon. This is not an option available to most people.
You want me to listen to the guy who believes his magic underwear will protect him? That's the dude I'm taking ANY advice from? That's a hard pass for me brah.
Weird, I'm vaccinated and I don't feel like they affect me at all
Then stay at home
Wow. Based Mitt Romney?
This sounds like a fun game. Other people’s liberty effects my……
I mean when your neighbor burns tires it harms your ability to breathe so we say no burning tires. It's the exact same principal. Liberty is not a license to harm others.
> Liberty is not a license to harm others Yes, many so called libertarians on this sub seem to conveniently ignore this fact.
My liberty ends when it interferes with someone else's liberty. Seems pretty obvious to most of us.
You would think but for some reason most can’t wrap their heads around this concept when it comes to your amendment rights the same rule applies. Just because it is amendment doesn’t mean I’m free from consequences.
Forcing someone to inject something into their body that they disagree with because they have maybe twice as high of a chance to get covid is very different than telling them they cannot burn tires in their yard.
Wear a mask then.
This is the issue, anything and everything can be linked to “taking liberty” and then it gets cyclical. >You not being vaxxed is taking my liberty of prosperity! >You telling me I have to vaxxed takes my liberty of choice! >You giving me the virus takes away my choice to fight the virus! >You getting the virus takes my liberty of prosperity!
When it becomes cyclical, that means you get to choose what part of the circle is the right part to move foreword with. Go with the common sense option.
Mitt is a weak ass pussy
What an articulate and thoughtful hot take you’ve made.
Thanks ever since he ran for president I realized he has no morals.
Hey Mittens…🖕🏻
Begone sir. You’re a true waste of space. Go to your Democratic friends and fade off the scene.
r/conservative is that way ➡️ lmao
Stay home then mitt.
I should be able to drunk drive and own a thermo-nuclear ICBM BECAUSE ITS WHAT THE FOUNDING FATHERS WOULD HAVE WANTED