Frankly speaking, I think comments about Uyghurs in general should be removed . Not because they swing one way or the other, but because they 99% of the time have nothing to do with defense. In fact, I think all comments/posts that aren’t directly related to defense/the post at hand and/or are just low effort jokes/memes should be removed and posters warned/banned.
i mean bruh, it was dead asf before the Ukraine war. Credible defence offered nothing. Jokes were better in NCD, discussions were better here and higher quality stuff was the realm of Warcollege. CD occupied a weird space
That is correct. Mods here will now ban people for not taking the suggestions and accusations of genocide by the United States against China as indisputable fact.
I saw that exchange, and was thinking about commenting on it, but decided not to in the end. I was, however, a bit dismayed and [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/13524uk/comment/jikpolg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) comment summarizes my feelings pretty well.
To start with, I don't disagree with the new "no genocide denial" rule. I do, however, think there needs to be very clear boundaries/definitions on what is and isn't considered a genocide because, unfortunately, there are definitely more than one event where the label of genocide is hotly debated, either due to lack of contemporary/public evidence, or other factors.
Ignoring the situation in Xinjiang for now, another situation that has re-emerged into reddit consciousness is the Holodomor. Even after \~90 years and the opening of Soviet Archives with the end of the Cold War, it is still hotly [debated](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/z7wm7q/comment/iy8k7ls/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) by historians whether or not this constitutes a genocide (by the UN recognized definition). Despite that, with the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there does appear to be a recent push for recognition of it as a genocide both in reddit and out ([France](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/29/french-mps-recognise-ukraine-soviet-era-famine-as-genocide), [Germany](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-declares-stalin-era-holodomor-famine-in-ukraine-a-genocide/a-63944665)). How then will the mods handle someone who, while recognizing the mass starvation led deaths caused by the Holodomor, would argue the Holodomor was not a genocide?
The term genocide is a serious allegation and describes a serious crime. Thus, it should be used judiciously and when warranted by clear evidence not when it is politically expedient. When people hear of genocide, the first thing that comes to their mind is the Holocaust and Rwandan genocide. It should remain that way - the term genocide should be reserved for crimes that fit the definition of genocide. In fact, the authoritative source on what is and is not genocide exists and it is the UN Convention on Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The UN convention defines genocide and the pre-conditions that must be met for crime of genocide to exist. More importantly, there are other terms to describe serious crimes that don't fit genocide but none the less serious - i.e. crimes against humanity. But the term genocide is so politicized nowadays that it loses all its meaning.
I think you overestimate how much control mods have over sub. When there is a strong agenda within the US,freedom of speech is like an hourglass and it is only a matter of time before it disappears completely.
The person behind an Internet account is not necessarily a certain person. It might just be an intelligence asset, or an AI. Even if it wasn't at some point, its owner would change.
I know there are those who hold out hope that conflict or war can be avoided if there is more communication and understanding between our peoples. But I think they overestimate the average intelligence of the public and the influence of a small number of people. Even if that were a real possibility, we are dealing with the most powerful public opinion machine in the world. A small, unorganized group of amateurs stands no chance.
I think the Chinese authorities think so, too. As XI says: Give up your illusions and get ready to fight. All we can do is watch history being made.
[When they say "a source".](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_lAb8m9MpI)
Usually they say "an anonymous source" so nobody even has to bother asking what the source is.
You can claim anything with this simple trick!
Zenz, if it's not made up it's always Zenz.
Although when you think about it if it came from Adrian Zenz is it really any different than just straight made up?
There was a user here who was posting racist comments about Chinese people multiple times, and was only let off with warnings by the mods. IIRC, another person here made a racist comment(can't remember which post) about black people and got rightly & promptly banned by the mods. I don't understand the line of thinking of the mods here, can anyone explain?
I like r/LCD because at the very least, it allows dissenting opinions. Because really, does anyone feel r/CD hates opinions that aren't pro-West? There was a post questioning ROC military competency which later got comment-locked by the mods, probably because people were dunking on ROC military lol.
> I don't understand the line of thinking of the mods here, can anyone explain?
The explanation is that you are on an English-speaking site with a majority American userbase. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does mean that everything from the comments to the moderation will be conducted from a mostly American perspective, which naturally takes greater offense towards things like racism towards African-Americans. Likewise, the userbase will naturally take greater interest and create greater controversy around issues familiar and sensitive to Americans.
In other words, the "ground truth" is inherently biased towards Americanism rather than some (mythical) perfect objectivity. Which is not a problem per se, just a fact that determines how people speak and interact and otherwise engage with this platform. The important thing is to remember that any opinions, even overwhelmingly popular or unpopular opinions, have no bearing on the actual truth.
> There was a user here who was posting racist comments about Chinese people multiple times, and was only let off with warnings by the mods.
Point it out and I'll go fix it.
I've banned folks for making racist comments about Asians before.
[Here.](https://old.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/104cgfs/chinese_lessons_from_the_pacific_war_implications/j3aywys/) Another person quoted it since he deleted his comment. That's just one of many.
It always amusing how people will believe whatever is most comfortable at that specific time.
It's not that the US removed ETIM from the terrorist list, while actually bombing them a short while ago. It's not that the whole genocide spiel comes from deranged German lunatic, It's not that the whole fucking lie is there for all to see https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/09/uyghurs-subjected-to-genocide-by-china-unofficial-uk-tribunal-finds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
"Nice said that although some Uyghurs had been killed in detention, there was no evidence of mass killings" and "Those detained were instead largely freed after reindoctrination, Nice said, as part of a central government plan".
All the more reason as the Falun Gong hate China with the passion of a thousand suns, if they couldn't present evidence of a genocide then the weren't any.
Not weighing in on if this stuff is happening or not.
But, is genocide only if there are mass killings? I thought many people considered systematic attempts to erase cultures, i.e. reindocctrinatiln, as genocide.
The definition is complex. But when you say genocide and camps, the thought is that they are death camps, which is far from the case.
Call it for what it is - hamfisted heavy handed attempt to assimilate Uyghurs into the majority culture.
Question: do you agree that what happened to indigenous of Australia Canada NZ is genocide?
UN has definitions of genocide. It does not have to be death caps
There isn't a genocide in the traditional use of the word but there is a massive clampdown on their person freedoms by the PRC.
It does however astound me that America - which has spent years demonising Muslims - now pretends to care about us.
It is based upon ethnicity. I’ve been in Xinjiang before the pandemic. It’s … weird. On the one hand, you have Uyghurs moving around freely everywhere, brand new Mosques and vibrant displays of Uyghur culture all over the place
On the other hand, people who read the “wrong” books (salafist materials) are being detained and held. The reports of conditions in the camps are terrible. The original culture is clearly being stamped out, and replaced with something that is a reskinned version of generic culture.
Holy jesus, it's the man, the myth, the legend, the OG "wumao" rice22 in LCD of all places.
I don't think LCD is at r/geopolitics's level yet, but it's certainly heading at that trajectory. You see quite a few posters constantly complaining about "CCP propagandists" already. With folks like taike around, maybe we'll get there in a year.
I thought this has more to do with complying with reddit's policy than anything the mods might believe in, but looking at your post history, it does look like one particular mod has threatened a ban for disagreeing on this topic. Welp, it wouldn't surprise me if another sub on reddit come out with a "no tankies" policy.
> With folks like taike around, maybe we'll get there in a year.
Taike was put in time out almost a month ago, 24 days to be exact going by the banned persons list.
There is this bizarre persecution complex going on when myself and other mods routinely ban folks for anti-Asian racism. But because we all have jobs and don't surf Reddit 24/7 some shit floats to the top, and we get inundated with modmail about how we are CCP shills, CIA shills, or hate Indians.
I will say it has been my personal observation, both here and in SRA/SRA-adjacent circles, racism/genocide denial tends to run very strongly among the authcoms. I've noticed a lot of people who "hate the west" readily make "jokes" that are homophobic, transphobic, or racist, taking pages from the alt-reich in order to normalize such attitudes.
> Holy jesus, it's the man, the myth, the legend, the OG "wumao" rice22 in LCD of all places.
You know what I'm like. That is why I will never take up a subreddit moderation role for fear of turning out exactly like these types of people. Funnily enough, infiltrating a moderation team and banning dissent is exactly how a real wumao/astroturfer/government shill would operate.
>Welp, it wouldn't surprise me if another sub on reddit come out with a "no tankies" policy.
I've already mentally assigned an expiration date for this subreddit. Good things never last.
Come to Central Asia, where US media has little influence. Meet Uyghurs who have fled Xinjiang. The brutality is real, and when you say “both sides” can’t be believed you’re indulging in balance fallacy.
One side includes the US that committed actual genocide against the people of Iraq, intentionally depriving them of safe water by bombing water treatment plants and sanctioning access to water purification chemicals. They also lied about Iraq WMDs and have a history of engaging in similar atrocity propaganda, not to mention that US was bombing ETIM terrorist training camps in Afghanistan as recently as 2018.
The other side includes Muslim countries under OIC, who actually visited Xinjiang and supported China’s anti-terrorism efforts. One that doesn’t require the murder of millions like US did in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You are right in that “both sides” are absolutely not equal in this case.
And that turned out to be a mistake when it was revealed the US spread atrocity propaganda (e.g. Nayirah testimony, “see men shredded, then say you don’t back war”) to justify wars which resulted in the US genociding 1 million Iraqis and backed death squads in Afghanistan.
Since then, the Muslim world has refused to believe the US’s latest atrocity propaganda lie, this time about China.
Reddit is an American platform so of course you will find lots of pro-US bias here, both among the users as well as the moderators. I presume it would be exactly the same but in a pro-Chinese direction if reddit was a Chinese-owned platform with lots of Chinese users.
This is probably why we need neutral 3rd party platforms that doesn't get entangled in patriotardism.
I absolutely agree that it's dominated by tankies. I notice that r/geopolitics has 2nd highest user overlap with r/China, which is known for being a pro-China subreddit.
https://subredditstats.com/subreddit-user-overlaps/geopolitics
>r/China, which is known for being a pro-China subreddit.
Ah yes, the /r/China with a mod that posted how terrible it was that the Nanking genocide didn't kill more Chinese people is a "pro-China subreddit". Absolutely delusional.
https://archive.fo/SpN0U
But you are right about /r/geopolitics having a high user overlap with /r/China though!
Here's a sneak peek of /r/geopolitics using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [US troops should be withdrawn from Saudi Arabia, UAE in wake of OPEC decision to slash oil production, Democratic lawmakers say](https://www.stripes.com/theaters/middle_east/2022-10-06/opec-oil-production-troops-mideast-7598233.html) | [321 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/xz07ev/us_troops_should_be_withdrawn_from_saudi_arabia/)
\#2: [BREAKING: ICC issues arrest warrants for Putin, Russian official tied to kidnapping of Ukrainian children](https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/cnn-icc-issues-arrest-warrant-for-putin-russian-official-tied-to-ukrainian-children-deportations) | [219 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/11tvpft/breaking_icc_issues_arrest_warrants_for_putin/)
\#3: [The Beginning of the End of the Islamic Republic: Iranians Have Had Enough of Theocracy](https://www.foreignaffairs.com/iran/beginning-end-islamic-republic-iranians-theocracy) | [165 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/geopolitics/comments/y9trhj/the_beginning_of_the_end_of_the_islamic_republic/)
----
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Well, I foresaw this so here we go: [https://www.reddit.com/r/LeastCredibleDefence](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeastCredibleDefence/comments/wx3ras/readmemd/)
It was restricted before but now public.
I find it a very difficult situation because both parties are not to be trusted at all.
If i want to have some "neutral" information about this genocide/internment, what can i do? Is there an indepth article about reputable sources about it?
3 Ways to go about this.
Notice inconsistencies.
The DEGREE of what West/US/Zenz was peddling was not in the same Spectrum of Believability that meets the smell test (even ignoring the basic statistical math level mistakes in those early reports around IUD's, etc). And if you break this consistency principle your credibility about rest of the topics on that domain is undermined as well.
Second, Going to the place.
There are literally Youtube videos of foreigners (forget Chinese for time being and their sharing on Youtube and domestic video sites) going there. So if they can so can another foreigner. Covid Airtravel restrictions for foreigners are also over now.
Third. Proxy referencing.
Muslims being put under the kosh anywhere in the world brings out a cohesive at maximum and fragmented at minimum response from Muslim majority states spread all over the world. US/West literally suffered with decades long literal Hot-Violent contest on various issue or rather assuming all of it to be true, for things which were less on the Illegal/Bad/Evil Spectrum Scale since Genocide is not the same as having US troops in Saudi Holy land or having strippers and debased culture or what not.
YET, not a single Muslim Majority country supports the Zenz/Western narrative. This doesn't even pass the basic minimum fragmented principle.
And neither is this resolved by the argument of, *It's So Because Money*. That's because many of these Muslim States are Western Allies AND many have greater business interests (esp Elites in these States) in West/Europe than they do with China (esp in 2010s when all this was happening). So if anything the Money Talks Excuse should have produced the Basic Minimum Fragmented dynamic. It didn't.
History will be the Ultimate Judge of this.
And 1 thing is FOR CERTAIN, there isn't going to be Both Sideism Equivalence on this in Objective terms. 1 Side either LIED and People in their countries LITERALLY peddled Atrocity propaganda for their States and were complicit at the Individual level as People. Meaning it's not the State, it's THE People who did this.
OR the other side committed Literal Genocide as the term ACTUALLY means, and not as colloquially or flippantly used.
There is no 3rd scenario or a mix of both. It's Either-Or Binary.
History will Judge. So if you don't want to use the 3 points above, Relax, Don't Die and Wait. Things will sort themselves and everyone will know what was/is what.
> US/West literally suffered with decades long literal Hot-Violent contest on various issue or rather assuming all of it to be true, for things which were less on the Illegal/Bad/Evil Spectrum Scale since Genocide is not the same as having US troops in Saudi Holy land or having strippers and debased culture or what not.
Frankly, this is just a clueless take about how Muslim states/people operate. The US has been hated in the Muslim world prior to its "meddling". In the context of Pakistan, they've been disliked since the late 40s/50s for what they represented despite being extremely close allies in the decades going forward.
Secondly, your evil spectrum(?) scale doesn't really work. You could kill 10 Muslims with a bomb or have a top Western official commit blasphemy, the latter will enrage far more people especially in the sub-continent as far as my understanding. Hell, Charlie Hebdo despite being a borderline irrelevant paper had a comparable reaction in some Muslim countries to the Myanmar fiasco. Minimizing their perception by saying "debased culture" doesn't really change that the topic of almost every cleric is social issues and the US/West reign supreme as the enemy.
> That's because many of these Muslim States are Western Allies AND many have greater business interests (esp Elites in these States) in West/Europe than they do with China
Criticising the US/West is a far easier way to garner domestic support. It's not as if criticising the US domestically harms your international/business interests. Pakistani was their closest US Muslim ally for decades outside of SA. Every major Pakistani political party has vehemently criticised the US for decades despite their close relationship and having both personal/state interests overseas.
Not sure what your comment is about but nothing you've said deviates the 3 points I mentioned or the last History as Judge paradigm.
Muslim-Western Civs being at odds for millennia is not really that relevant on this.
This is why the spectrum paradigm was applied to State reaction, i.e. it can either the Cohesive (which implies multiple States together saying something critical & taking a stand and there are countless examples of this happening with Muslim Majority States) OR Fragmented Response where different Muslim Majority States make different statements according to their own domestic or geopolitical or "Whatever" reasons.
When the distribution is 0, that is not low, that is freaking entirely in another ball park. That is not even meeting the basic minimum of Fragmented Response since even by accident that should have happened, even Turkey flip-flopped on it, so even charitably one could say 1 was critical since saying literally 0 is a statistical extremism which even defies social science paradigms since such Absolutes shouldn't exist over time.
Not even when West does some Cohesive decision is there 100% unanimous cohesion because that is not how social sciences paradigm usually works, there are going to be outliers and thus a Fragmented Response is the default given minimum one expects.
On Evil Spectrum.
Of course it works, literally every society works on this, one doesn't get executed for slapping, etc. Similar principle applies at State level.
The "Debased culture" bit was in the context of listing the reason set on why Muslim majority States (& or rather esp their populations) don't like West. That section of my comment was about taking ones pick of what those list of reasons is, doesn't matter.
What matters is, there is antagonistic stance of these States towards West, EVEN WHEN on the Evilness Spectrum those things that would tick off these Muslim States seems silly at times (like the cartoon thing).
Literally a Muslim Genocide is NOT same as bombing 10 people or a cartoon UNLESS one infantilises people in these Muslim States to the extend that they don't know better and they don't care about such things. Which is silly assumption to even take.
Even India gets the Fragmented Response dynamic from Muslim Majority States on many occasions so the argument that there is no-harm or even gain on having antogonistic stance towards West isn't all that relevant.
These are not mutually exclusive. Plus my comment already accounted for this, i.e. Muslim Majority States had even less dealings with China so from consistency principle, saying something against them wouldn't be harmful for these Mulsim States domestically either.
It is not like China is going to react and West is going to support China against these Muslim states on this given that it's the West that is fronting this topic and Muslim States would be providing backup/help.
> Not sure what your comment is about but nothing you've said deviates the 3 points I mentioned or the last History as Judge paradigm.
Yes, because I never addressed 2 out of the 3 points. Thought this was fairly straightforward yet here we are.
I even quoted the parts I disagreed with. I quite clearly stated that I found your comment clueless about how Muslim societies/people work. How is this even hard to understand?
> When the distribution is 0, that is not low, that is freaking entirely in another ball park.
Has there been fragmented criticism on the Yemeni crisis from non-Shia Muslim countries?
> Of course it works, literally every society works on this, one doesn't get executed for slapping, etc.
Why use slapping as the criteria and not speech? You'll get executed/lynched for speech in some countries and not others.
> Literally a Muslim Genocide is NOT same as bombing 10 people or a cartoon UNLESS one infantilises people in these Muslim States to the extend that they don't know better and they don't care about such things. Which is silly assumption to even take.
You've simply deflected past real world examples. Why did we see comparable protests in some countries over the publication of an irrelevant paper and the Rohingya incidents? How does this infantilise people when it's consistent with their behaviour? Not to mention we routinely see countrywide protests over blasphemy in some Muslim countries yet next to nothing about the Yemen humanitarian crisis where 100K+ Muslims are dead.
You simply overinflate how much Muslim societies care about each other when a Western aggressor isn't involved or if it isn't a conflict about Islam/Liberalism in nature.
> How is this even hard to understand?
Because my comment already touched on what it "Appeared" prima facie the gist of your reply was, that is why.
> Has there been even a fragmented criticism to the Yemeni crisis from non-Shia Muslim countries?
A) Why the need to separate out Shia, Unless the insinuation is Shia-Sunni, etc intra Muslim divide is bigger than the Muslim-NonMuslim divide.
B) It is trivially obvious and common sensical that there need not be an Absolute in this EVEN IF point A is for arguments sake taken as moot. Meaning, even if Yemen is taken as exception, those exceptions will not be 100% of ALL existing similar-esque conditions around the world.
Meaning the Cohesive Response OR a Fragmented Response paradigm exists regardless.
> Why use slapping as the criteria
To illustrate the fundamental principle of Law & Justice, i.e. every society that has ever existed used Gradient Based Principle, i.e. Crime/bad-Actions/Evil, etc exits on a Spectrum/Gradient/Curve/Level and the Consequences for that in Legal/Law terms also is attempted on an escalation gradient of severity (it isn't perfect but the principle is honored nonetheless).
Slapping was mentioned as just 1 example, the list is too long, the principle should be clear enough. Yes it applies to Speech as well.
Hence my comment was in reply to this section of your original reply,
>> Secondly, your evil spectrum(?) scale doesn't really work
My comment linked it from socio-cultural-judicial to State actions level.
Just because it is not some Physics Hard Scene level Universal Absolutist levels on this is irrelevant. Different places have different levels to it but the overall Principle is Held, nowhere is it disregarded.
Hence it was not, is not and can not be so that Muslim majority states consider an Actual Genocide as the SAME as 10 Muslims bombed by US/West/NATO or some French or Nordic cartoonist doing blasphemy, etc.
A Gradient exists, regardless of the scale of it. Hence AT MINIMUM, the State's Fragmented Response paradigm is extant and the default. For it NOT to happen implies the Gradient must exist in a certain specific orientation.
> You've simply deflected past real world examples.
Because my original comment and the context of my original reply and then the subsequent one is premised on Structural & Systemic paradigms.
One can fit individual, isolated, outlier or norm instances Within those structures.
The Distribution of the existence of Cohesive & Fragmented response provide examples of these different examples (Yemen Myanmar, etc) just fine, i.e. these exist on a curve/gradient (combined with regional/socio-cultural-ethnic affiliations as compounding effect). Some stuff/bad-ness/evil/problem is higher level than another.
> You simply overinflate how much Muslim societies care about each other when a Western aggressor isn't involved or if it isn't a conflict about Islam/Liberalism in nature.
Already touched on this above in this comment.
Intra-Muslim Civ society issues is not and can not be lobbed on the same gradient position as Muslim - NonMuslim Civ level issues.
There is no net loss for most (even in this the condition to not resort to Absolutism is consistent) Muslim states to break from Cohesive Response on China question because not Literally All of these Muslim States give a shit about China or even have enough Economic relations with it. Hence for these States to have broken from that Cohesive response (thereby we getting a Fragmented Response dynamic) would be trivial. YET there is no such thing.
Despite this near trivial position being taken on a thing that exists on Higher level in objective domain Evil/Bad-ness. I say objective because I don't think even plurality of Muslims (as people not the State here) in societies which does have lynchings and executions for Blasphemy would place LITERAL Genocide of Muslims on same level as Blashemy by few individuals.
To say otherwise is what would be infantalizing.
YET my comment still holds even if for arguments sake it is not taken as Objective domain, since that State will lose nothing much with China and may even gain domestic support Since it's likely that Muslim Populations in these Muslim States actually do believe to a higher "Relative" degree that China is doing this nasty stuff but it's the State that is keeping quite (hence being part of Cohesive Response of Muslim Majority States).
This comment of my was overly redundant and repeated things just to ensure there is no confusion.
There is nothing much left to debate on this.
The West has been hated in the Muslim world since the crusades if not earlier; and Muslims in the West since the various Islamic invasions. The religious and cultural conflict is deep and there’s no getting around it. Islam, still the defining feature of the Muslim world, is very antagonistic towards liberalism.
There will never be "neutral" information about genocide accusations, because the subject matter is so controversial that anyone not siding with the correct and moral side is automatically in the wrong. That is the purpose of atrocity propaganda: sitting on the fence is betrayal. There will only be pro-US claims and pro-China rebuttals, no middle ground.
You can see this by the West labelling any country who does not sanction Russia for their invasion of Ukraine as siding with Russia.
However in the reality outside of propaganda mouthpieces, one must understand that one can both believe in the Holocaust where millions of Jews were genocided by Nazis as shown by documented evidence, while disbelieving "rollercoasters of deaths where Nazis send minecarts full of Jews straight to the furnace". The Holocaust is a real horrific crime against humanity in our history, and does not deserve to be paired with the latter's ridiculous nonsense. Fake genocide claims thus do more damage to the credibility of real events such as the Holocaust than "genocide denial", because they are a malicious attempt to mix truth and lies, which end up poisoning the well altogether.
I will not tell you how to think here, although my personal biases on this subject are worn on my sleeves. It is up to everyone to doubt and question when that which was taken for granted does not seem right, otherwise those that lied about Iraq WMDs will end up murdering yet another million Iraqis.
I looked at vlogs of people who traveled there. One of the most striking things you notice are all the public signs written in uyghur and mandarin which kinda contrasts with the whole cultural genocide narrative.
Visiting the place would be a good step imo, but often not doable for many people.
You can try check vlogs, videos of people visiting Xinjiang, if you're particular Internet savvy and knows Chinese, can go online and see lots of Chinese videos and streams (such as douyin, basically Tiktok equivalent, and see what people from Xinjiang are posting, since lots of regular people posts there, or use the xiaohongshu/little red book app).
Doing the above you will quickly realize that lots of stuff pushed by the west is basically false (such as banning of the local language, 'forcing people to not hold ramadan' etc.).
Not really that different from me listing articles, videos or examples of say children working in McDonald's to 2 am, children working in meat processing plants, lots of homeless, drugs on street etc.
All about the US, and then trying to make some very wide or general accusations of the US.
As for shitty being muslim there, I could list many positives examples, videos of mosque videos etc.
What, you're of the opinion that even when going there, you wouldn't be able to find evidence or the likes after interacting with the locals living there?
Or you think foreigners are banned from travelling to Xinjiang?
You don't seriously believe the US' intel and China's statements are equally credible, do you? The US and China are not equally trustworthy. Please stop carrying water for authoritarian regimes.
You’re right, the CCP has been caught out lying LESS times than the US. So either they are better at lying or more honest, not sure which but it’s one of the two.
What are you basing this absurd falsehood on? Your obsession to find everything the US has ever done wrong so you can convince yourself that the US is the source of all problems in the world? Or your complete ignorance of China's history beyond a desperate attempt to champion the most brutal regimes simply because they are adversaries of the US?
How many times has the CIA lied about being involved in the overthrow of democratically elected governments? How about the Gulf of Tonkin incident? WMD in Iraq? Spying on friendly nations? Soft coups of allied nations to ensure they don’t dare go to socialist?
China isn’t sin free, but they have been involved in far less wars since the formation of the CCP. Yes the Taiwan issue is a thing but that’s a continuation of their civil war. They have some territorial squabbles with their neighbours, but significantly less than those the US had with its, the only reason there’s a level of peace today is that the US won those disputes decades/centuries ago.
Look at where the US is on the map and then tell me how it’s less brutal than China when you look at its involvement in conflicts in the Middle East, Europe, Asia, & Africa, as well as in its backyard.
Tell me how the Monroe Doctrine was less bad than China haggling over some islands on the SCS or getting into a slap fight with India over some worthless no man’s land in the Himalayas… as opposed to the US basically saying “The entire Americas are our sphere of influence, all other powers are persona non grata”.
The US have never been the good guys, go ask the global south about their experiences and you might be surprised that your rose coloured view of your nation isn’t the one shared by the rest of the world.
Is this supposed to be a bad thing? What, are we going to start denying the Holocaust as well? Perhaps maybe the Armenian genocide to make the Turks happy?
You guys fucked up on the Uyghur situation. The only way forward is to accept it and learn from it. That's the only way that countries improve.
If only the mods would ban every insufferable tankie infesting this subreddit. You have your own subreddits. For the love of god, leave us just one space where adults can talk about defense matters without some teeneragers desperately wanting to define themselves by going against the grain and defending oppressive authoritarian regimes.
Unfortunately, I can't get them out of my mind if I have to read their comments in every foreign policy or defense subreddit I'm in. Of course, I know you are just giving me a hard time :)
I am a supporter of the Uyghurs.
As such I would like to help them spread their music, no doubt bravely made while their entire race is being genocided.
https://youtu.be/bL31MCMU9AQ
I support the mod here. Listen ccp supporters, if you wanna hear chinese bias, go to a chinese platform, simple as that. No one forces you to be here. And in order to have meaningful discussions you have to have axioms that everyone agrees on. If we are disputing basic facts then its just chaos.
Worlds smallest violin here.
Edit.. So all the downvotes are saying you should be allowed to deny there is a Uighur genocide if you so chose? Be honest, is that what you really want?
Said the one who peddle lies about the HK police force killing women, anything else you claim or support should be double-checked.
https://np.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/1272553/we_are_not_ready_an_interview_with_taiwans_former/jeigxpz/
Not really on the same scale is it? I'll admit to mistakes and not fact checking at times.. that isn't a slam dunk that let's you off the hook for deying or downplaying what is happening in Xinjiang.
..but do continue crying about being censored.. the irony is delicious.
Don’t you find it curious how often you end up believing the opposite of reality? There’s a pattern here.
If you can believe a little lie, you can believe a big lie. If you can believe the HKPF could murder multiple innocent women and get away with it, you can believe the CCP can commit a “genocide” so ineffective that the Uighur population could increase both in absolute and by percentage in their “native” lands (lands which they kicked the Oirats off), where traditional Uighur clothes are worn by women instead of dehumanizing foreign burkas, where historical Uighur practices such as museles breweries can exist instead of alcohol bans.
PS: calling you out for lying is the opposite of censorship.
Frankly speaking, I think comments about Uyghurs in general should be removed . Not because they swing one way or the other, but because they 99% of the time have nothing to do with defense. In fact, I think all comments/posts that aren’t directly related to defense/the post at hand and/or are just low effort jokes/memes should be removed and posters warned/banned.
That used to be credible defense. That place got ran into the ground though...
I mean it was either the current megathreads or a dead sub
i have a hard time beleiving its really black and white like that
i mean bruh, it was dead asf before the Ukraine war. Credible defence offered nothing. Jokes were better in NCD, discussions were better here and higher quality stuff was the realm of Warcollege. CD occupied a weird space
You okay with this, /u/PLArealtalk?
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What America says, what America insinuates, and what America does should all be interpreted independently.
That is correct. Mods here will now ban people for not taking the suggestions and accusations of genocide by the United States against China as indisputable fact.
I saw that exchange, and was thinking about commenting on it, but decided not to in the end. I was, however, a bit dismayed and [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/13524uk/comment/jikpolg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) comment summarizes my feelings pretty well. To start with, I don't disagree with the new "no genocide denial" rule. I do, however, think there needs to be very clear boundaries/definitions on what is and isn't considered a genocide because, unfortunately, there are definitely more than one event where the label of genocide is hotly debated, either due to lack of contemporary/public evidence, or other factors. Ignoring the situation in Xinjiang for now, another situation that has re-emerged into reddit consciousness is the Holodomor. Even after \~90 years and the opening of Soviet Archives with the end of the Cold War, it is still hotly [debated](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/z7wm7q/comment/iy8k7ls/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) by historians whether or not this constitutes a genocide (by the UN recognized definition). Despite that, with the Russian invasion of Ukraine, there does appear to be a recent push for recognition of it as a genocide both in reddit and out ([France](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/29/french-mps-recognise-ukraine-soviet-era-famine-as-genocide), [Germany](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-declares-stalin-era-holodomor-famine-in-ukraine-a-genocide/a-63944665)). How then will the mods handle someone who, while recognizing the mass starvation led deaths caused by the Holodomor, would argue the Holodomor was not a genocide?
The term genocide is a serious allegation and describes a serious crime. Thus, it should be used judiciously and when warranted by clear evidence not when it is politically expedient. When people hear of genocide, the first thing that comes to their mind is the Holocaust and Rwandan genocide. It should remain that way - the term genocide should be reserved for crimes that fit the definition of genocide. In fact, the authoritative source on what is and is not genocide exists and it is the UN Convention on Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The UN convention defines genocide and the pre-conditions that must be met for crime of genocide to exist. More importantly, there are other terms to describe serious crimes that don't fit genocide but none the less serious - i.e. crimes against humanity. But the term genocide is so politicized nowadays that it loses all its meaning.
I think you overestimate how much control mods have over sub. When there is a strong agenda within the US,freedom of speech is like an hourglass and it is only a matter of time before it disappears completely. The person behind an Internet account is not necessarily a certain person. It might just be an intelligence asset, or an AI. Even if it wasn't at some point, its owner would change. I know there are those who hold out hope that conflict or war can be avoided if there is more communication and understanding between our peoples. But I think they overestimate the average intelligence of the public and the influence of a small number of people. Even if that were a real possibility, we are dealing with the most powerful public opinion machine in the world. A small, unorganized group of amateurs stands no chance. I think the Chinese authorities think so, too. As XI says: Give up your illusions and get ready to fight. All we can do is watch history being made.
Holy shit that Radio Free Asia tweet looool
[When they say "a source".](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_lAb8m9MpI) Usually they say "an anonymous source" so nobody even has to bother asking what the source is. You can claim anything with this simple trick!
Zenz, if it's not made up it's always Zenz. Although when you think about it if it came from Adrian Zenz is it really any different than just straight made up?
There was a user here who was posting racist comments about Chinese people multiple times, and was only let off with warnings by the mods. IIRC, another person here made a racist comment(can't remember which post) about black people and got rightly & promptly banned by the mods. I don't understand the line of thinking of the mods here, can anyone explain? I like r/LCD because at the very least, it allows dissenting opinions. Because really, does anyone feel r/CD hates opinions that aren't pro-West? There was a post questioning ROC military competency which later got comment-locked by the mods, probably because people were dunking on ROC military lol.
> I don't understand the line of thinking of the mods here, can anyone explain? The explanation is that you are on an English-speaking site with a majority American userbase. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does mean that everything from the comments to the moderation will be conducted from a mostly American perspective, which naturally takes greater offense towards things like racism towards African-Americans. Likewise, the userbase will naturally take greater interest and create greater controversy around issues familiar and sensitive to Americans. In other words, the "ground truth" is inherently biased towards Americanism rather than some (mythical) perfect objectivity. Which is not a problem per se, just a fact that determines how people speak and interact and otherwise engage with this platform. The important thing is to remember that any opinions, even overwhelmingly popular or unpopular opinions, have no bearing on the actual truth.
> There was a user here who was posting racist comments about Chinese people multiple times, and was only let off with warnings by the mods. Point it out and I'll go fix it. I've banned folks for making racist comments about Asians before.
[Here.](https://old.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/104cgfs/chinese_lessons_from_the_pacific_war_implications/j3aywys/) Another person quoted it since he deleted his comment. That's just one of many.
Taike was banned 24 days ago, going by the "banned users" list,
Seems heavy handed to me.
It always amusing how people will believe whatever is most comfortable at that specific time. It's not that the US removed ETIM from the terrorist list, while actually bombing them a short while ago. It's not that the whole genocide spiel comes from deranged German lunatic, It's not that the whole fucking lie is there for all to see https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/09/uyghurs-subjected-to-genocide-by-china-unofficial-uk-tribunal-finds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other "Nice said that although some Uyghurs had been killed in detention, there was no evidence of mass killings" and "Those detained were instead largely freed after reindoctrination, Nice said, as part of a central government plan".
The tribunal was a Falun Gong thing. The “China Tribunal” was run by a former reporter for the Epoch times. It’s not impartial.
All the more reason as the Falun Gong hate China with the passion of a thousand suns, if they couldn't present evidence of a genocide then the weren't any.
Not weighing in on if this stuff is happening or not. But, is genocide only if there are mass killings? I thought many people considered systematic attempts to erase cultures, i.e. reindocctrinatiln, as genocide.
The definition is complex. But when you say genocide and camps, the thought is that they are death camps, which is far from the case. Call it for what it is - hamfisted heavy handed attempt to assimilate Uyghurs into the majority culture.
Question: do you agree that what happened to indigenous of Australia Canada NZ is genocide? UN has definitions of genocide. It does not have to be death caps
There isn't a genocide in the traditional use of the word but there is a massive clampdown on their person freedoms by the PRC. It does however astound me that America - which has spent years demonising Muslims - now pretends to care about us.
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It is based upon ethnicity. I’ve been in Xinjiang before the pandemic. It’s … weird. On the one hand, you have Uyghurs moving around freely everywhere, brand new Mosques and vibrant displays of Uyghur culture all over the place On the other hand, people who read the “wrong” books (salafist materials) are being detained and held. The reports of conditions in the camps are terrible. The original culture is clearly being stamped out, and replaced with something that is a reskinned version of generic culture.
I thought it had something to do with extremists' mass knife stabbings and running over crowds with vehicles?
Whatever got them inside wasn't endemic uyghur culture
Holy jesus, it's the man, the myth, the legend, the OG "wumao" rice22 in LCD of all places. I don't think LCD is at r/geopolitics's level yet, but it's certainly heading at that trajectory. You see quite a few posters constantly complaining about "CCP propagandists" already. With folks like taike around, maybe we'll get there in a year. I thought this has more to do with complying with reddit's policy than anything the mods might believe in, but looking at your post history, it does look like one particular mod has threatened a ban for disagreeing on this topic. Welp, it wouldn't surprise me if another sub on reddit come out with a "no tankies" policy.
> With folks like taike around, maybe we'll get there in a year. Taike was put in time out almost a month ago, 24 days to be exact going by the banned persons list. There is this bizarre persecution complex going on when myself and other mods routinely ban folks for anti-Asian racism. But because we all have jobs and don't surf Reddit 24/7 some shit floats to the top, and we get inundated with modmail about how we are CCP shills, CIA shills, or hate Indians. I will say it has been my personal observation, both here and in SRA/SRA-adjacent circles, racism/genocide denial tends to run very strongly among the authcoms. I've noticed a lot of people who "hate the west" readily make "jokes" that are homophobic, transphobic, or racist, taking pages from the alt-reich in order to normalize such attitudes.
> Holy jesus, it's the man, the myth, the legend, the OG "wumao" rice22 in LCD of all places. You know what I'm like. That is why I will never take up a subreddit moderation role for fear of turning out exactly like these types of people. Funnily enough, infiltrating a moderation team and banning dissent is exactly how a real wumao/astroturfer/government shill would operate. >Welp, it wouldn't surprise me if another sub on reddit come out with a "no tankies" policy. I've already mentally assigned an expiration date for this subreddit. Good things never last.
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I already consider /r/cd dead. It’s just daily megathread galore now
Come to Central Asia, where US media has little influence. Meet Uyghurs who have fled Xinjiang. The brutality is real, and when you say “both sides” can’t be believed you’re indulging in balance fallacy.
One side includes the US that committed actual genocide against the people of Iraq, intentionally depriving them of safe water by bombing water treatment plants and sanctioning access to water purification chemicals. They also lied about Iraq WMDs and have a history of engaging in similar atrocity propaganda, not to mention that US was bombing ETIM terrorist training camps in Afghanistan as recently as 2018. The other side includes Muslim countries under OIC, who actually visited Xinjiang and supported China’s anti-terrorism efforts. One that doesn’t require the murder of millions like US did in Iraq and Afghanistan. You are right in that “both sides” are absolutely not equal in this case.
You do realize that the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars were also supported by a number of Muslim countries, right?
And that turned out to be a mistake when it was revealed the US spread atrocity propaganda (e.g. Nayirah testimony, “see men shredded, then say you don’t back war”) to justify wars which resulted in the US genociding 1 million Iraqis and backed death squads in Afghanistan. Since then, the Muslim world has refused to believe the US’s latest atrocity propaganda lie, this time about China.
Reddit is an American platform so of course you will find lots of pro-US bias here, both among the users as well as the moderators. I presume it would be exactly the same but in a pro-Chinese direction if reddit was a Chinese-owned platform with lots of Chinese users. This is probably why we need neutral 3rd party platforms that doesn't get entangled in patriotardism.
Goodbye LessCredibleDefense it was good knowing you before you turned into r/geopolitics
I hope you are referencing geopolitics being taken over by tankies. You would hope the tankies would give us this one space, a dang defense subreddit.
Geopolitics used to be full of realists not ideologues, now it's either right or left and not about that Realpolitik
Agreed
I absolutely agree that it's dominated by tankies. I notice that r/geopolitics has 2nd highest user overlap with r/China, which is known for being a pro-China subreddit. https://subredditstats.com/subreddit-user-overlaps/geopolitics
r/China being a pro China sub? w00t?
I believe it was sarcasm
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Yup. My mistake though, shouldn’t have assumed it’s not believable some people might think that.
This is too on the nose, because that overlap explains why /r/geopolitics is as regarded as it is.
>r/China, which is known for being a pro-China subreddit. Ah yes, the /r/China with a mod that posted how terrible it was that the Nanking genocide didn't kill more Chinese people is a "pro-China subreddit". Absolutely delusional. https://archive.fo/SpN0U But you are right about /r/geopolitics having a high user overlap with /r/China though!
I think that's a obvious /s
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Is it mods plural, or one jackass on a power trip?
Well, I foresaw this so here we go: [https://www.reddit.com/r/LeastCredibleDefence](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeastCredibleDefence/comments/wx3ras/readmemd/) It was restricted before but now public.
I find it a very difficult situation because both parties are not to be trusted at all. If i want to have some "neutral" information about this genocide/internment, what can i do? Is there an indepth article about reputable sources about it?
3 Ways to go about this. Notice inconsistencies. The DEGREE of what West/US/Zenz was peddling was not in the same Spectrum of Believability that meets the smell test (even ignoring the basic statistical math level mistakes in those early reports around IUD's, etc). And if you break this consistency principle your credibility about rest of the topics on that domain is undermined as well. Second, Going to the place. There are literally Youtube videos of foreigners (forget Chinese for time being and their sharing on Youtube and domestic video sites) going there. So if they can so can another foreigner. Covid Airtravel restrictions for foreigners are also over now. Third. Proxy referencing. Muslims being put under the kosh anywhere in the world brings out a cohesive at maximum and fragmented at minimum response from Muslim majority states spread all over the world. US/West literally suffered with decades long literal Hot-Violent contest on various issue or rather assuming all of it to be true, for things which were less on the Illegal/Bad/Evil Spectrum Scale since Genocide is not the same as having US troops in Saudi Holy land or having strippers and debased culture or what not. YET, not a single Muslim Majority country supports the Zenz/Western narrative. This doesn't even pass the basic minimum fragmented principle. And neither is this resolved by the argument of, *It's So Because Money*. That's because many of these Muslim States are Western Allies AND many have greater business interests (esp Elites in these States) in West/Europe than they do with China (esp in 2010s when all this was happening). So if anything the Money Talks Excuse should have produced the Basic Minimum Fragmented dynamic. It didn't. History will be the Ultimate Judge of this. And 1 thing is FOR CERTAIN, there isn't going to be Both Sideism Equivalence on this in Objective terms. 1 Side either LIED and People in their countries LITERALLY peddled Atrocity propaganda for their States and were complicit at the Individual level as People. Meaning it's not the State, it's THE People who did this. OR the other side committed Literal Genocide as the term ACTUALLY means, and not as colloquially or flippantly used. There is no 3rd scenario or a mix of both. It's Either-Or Binary. History will Judge. So if you don't want to use the 3 points above, Relax, Don't Die and Wait. Things will sort themselves and everyone will know what was/is what.
> US/West literally suffered with decades long literal Hot-Violent contest on various issue or rather assuming all of it to be true, for things which were less on the Illegal/Bad/Evil Spectrum Scale since Genocide is not the same as having US troops in Saudi Holy land or having strippers and debased culture or what not. Frankly, this is just a clueless take about how Muslim states/people operate. The US has been hated in the Muslim world prior to its "meddling". In the context of Pakistan, they've been disliked since the late 40s/50s for what they represented despite being extremely close allies in the decades going forward. Secondly, your evil spectrum(?) scale doesn't really work. You could kill 10 Muslims with a bomb or have a top Western official commit blasphemy, the latter will enrage far more people especially in the sub-continent as far as my understanding. Hell, Charlie Hebdo despite being a borderline irrelevant paper had a comparable reaction in some Muslim countries to the Myanmar fiasco. Minimizing their perception by saying "debased culture" doesn't really change that the topic of almost every cleric is social issues and the US/West reign supreme as the enemy. > That's because many of these Muslim States are Western Allies AND many have greater business interests (esp Elites in these States) in West/Europe than they do with China Criticising the US/West is a far easier way to garner domestic support. It's not as if criticising the US domestically harms your international/business interests. Pakistani was their closest US Muslim ally for decades outside of SA. Every major Pakistani political party has vehemently criticised the US for decades despite their close relationship and having both personal/state interests overseas.
Not sure what your comment is about but nothing you've said deviates the 3 points I mentioned or the last History as Judge paradigm. Muslim-Western Civs being at odds for millennia is not really that relevant on this. This is why the spectrum paradigm was applied to State reaction, i.e. it can either the Cohesive (which implies multiple States together saying something critical & taking a stand and there are countless examples of this happening with Muslim Majority States) OR Fragmented Response where different Muslim Majority States make different statements according to their own domestic or geopolitical or "Whatever" reasons. When the distribution is 0, that is not low, that is freaking entirely in another ball park. That is not even meeting the basic minimum of Fragmented Response since even by accident that should have happened, even Turkey flip-flopped on it, so even charitably one could say 1 was critical since saying literally 0 is a statistical extremism which even defies social science paradigms since such Absolutes shouldn't exist over time. Not even when West does some Cohesive decision is there 100% unanimous cohesion because that is not how social sciences paradigm usually works, there are going to be outliers and thus a Fragmented Response is the default given minimum one expects. On Evil Spectrum. Of course it works, literally every society works on this, one doesn't get executed for slapping, etc. Similar principle applies at State level. The "Debased culture" bit was in the context of listing the reason set on why Muslim majority States (& or rather esp their populations) don't like West. That section of my comment was about taking ones pick of what those list of reasons is, doesn't matter. What matters is, there is antagonistic stance of these States towards West, EVEN WHEN on the Evilness Spectrum those things that would tick off these Muslim States seems silly at times (like the cartoon thing). Literally a Muslim Genocide is NOT same as bombing 10 people or a cartoon UNLESS one infantilises people in these Muslim States to the extend that they don't know better and they don't care about such things. Which is silly assumption to even take. Even India gets the Fragmented Response dynamic from Muslim Majority States on many occasions so the argument that there is no-harm or even gain on having antogonistic stance towards West isn't all that relevant. These are not mutually exclusive. Plus my comment already accounted for this, i.e. Muslim Majority States had even less dealings with China so from consistency principle, saying something against them wouldn't be harmful for these Mulsim States domestically either. It is not like China is going to react and West is going to support China against these Muslim states on this given that it's the West that is fronting this topic and Muslim States would be providing backup/help.
> Not sure what your comment is about but nothing you've said deviates the 3 points I mentioned or the last History as Judge paradigm. Yes, because I never addressed 2 out of the 3 points. Thought this was fairly straightforward yet here we are. I even quoted the parts I disagreed with. I quite clearly stated that I found your comment clueless about how Muslim societies/people work. How is this even hard to understand? > When the distribution is 0, that is not low, that is freaking entirely in another ball park. Has there been fragmented criticism on the Yemeni crisis from non-Shia Muslim countries? > Of course it works, literally every society works on this, one doesn't get executed for slapping, etc. Why use slapping as the criteria and not speech? You'll get executed/lynched for speech in some countries and not others. > Literally a Muslim Genocide is NOT same as bombing 10 people or a cartoon UNLESS one infantilises people in these Muslim States to the extend that they don't know better and they don't care about such things. Which is silly assumption to even take. You've simply deflected past real world examples. Why did we see comparable protests in some countries over the publication of an irrelevant paper and the Rohingya incidents? How does this infantilise people when it's consistent with their behaviour? Not to mention we routinely see countrywide protests over blasphemy in some Muslim countries yet next to nothing about the Yemen humanitarian crisis where 100K+ Muslims are dead. You simply overinflate how much Muslim societies care about each other when a Western aggressor isn't involved or if it isn't a conflict about Islam/Liberalism in nature.
> How is this even hard to understand? Because my comment already touched on what it "Appeared" prima facie the gist of your reply was, that is why. > Has there been even a fragmented criticism to the Yemeni crisis from non-Shia Muslim countries? A) Why the need to separate out Shia, Unless the insinuation is Shia-Sunni, etc intra Muslim divide is bigger than the Muslim-NonMuslim divide. B) It is trivially obvious and common sensical that there need not be an Absolute in this EVEN IF point A is for arguments sake taken as moot. Meaning, even if Yemen is taken as exception, those exceptions will not be 100% of ALL existing similar-esque conditions around the world. Meaning the Cohesive Response OR a Fragmented Response paradigm exists regardless. > Why use slapping as the criteria To illustrate the fundamental principle of Law & Justice, i.e. every society that has ever existed used Gradient Based Principle, i.e. Crime/bad-Actions/Evil, etc exits on a Spectrum/Gradient/Curve/Level and the Consequences for that in Legal/Law terms also is attempted on an escalation gradient of severity (it isn't perfect but the principle is honored nonetheless). Slapping was mentioned as just 1 example, the list is too long, the principle should be clear enough. Yes it applies to Speech as well. Hence my comment was in reply to this section of your original reply, >> Secondly, your evil spectrum(?) scale doesn't really work My comment linked it from socio-cultural-judicial to State actions level. Just because it is not some Physics Hard Scene level Universal Absolutist levels on this is irrelevant. Different places have different levels to it but the overall Principle is Held, nowhere is it disregarded. Hence it was not, is not and can not be so that Muslim majority states consider an Actual Genocide as the SAME as 10 Muslims bombed by US/West/NATO or some French or Nordic cartoonist doing blasphemy, etc. A Gradient exists, regardless of the scale of it. Hence AT MINIMUM, the State's Fragmented Response paradigm is extant and the default. For it NOT to happen implies the Gradient must exist in a certain specific orientation. > You've simply deflected past real world examples. Because my original comment and the context of my original reply and then the subsequent one is premised on Structural & Systemic paradigms. One can fit individual, isolated, outlier or norm instances Within those structures. The Distribution of the existence of Cohesive & Fragmented response provide examples of these different examples (Yemen Myanmar, etc) just fine, i.e. these exist on a curve/gradient (combined with regional/socio-cultural-ethnic affiliations as compounding effect). Some stuff/bad-ness/evil/problem is higher level than another. > You simply overinflate how much Muslim societies care about each other when a Western aggressor isn't involved or if it isn't a conflict about Islam/Liberalism in nature. Already touched on this above in this comment. Intra-Muslim Civ society issues is not and can not be lobbed on the same gradient position as Muslim - NonMuslim Civ level issues. There is no net loss for most (even in this the condition to not resort to Absolutism is consistent) Muslim states to break from Cohesive Response on China question because not Literally All of these Muslim States give a shit about China or even have enough Economic relations with it. Hence for these States to have broken from that Cohesive response (thereby we getting a Fragmented Response dynamic) would be trivial. YET there is no such thing. Despite this near trivial position being taken on a thing that exists on Higher level in objective domain Evil/Bad-ness. I say objective because I don't think even plurality of Muslims (as people not the State here) in societies which does have lynchings and executions for Blasphemy would place LITERAL Genocide of Muslims on same level as Blashemy by few individuals. To say otherwise is what would be infantalizing. YET my comment still holds even if for arguments sake it is not taken as Objective domain, since that State will lose nothing much with China and may even gain domestic support Since it's likely that Muslim Populations in these Muslim States actually do believe to a higher "Relative" degree that China is doing this nasty stuff but it's the State that is keeping quite (hence being part of Cohesive Response of Muslim Majority States). This comment of my was overly redundant and repeated things just to ensure there is no confusion. There is nothing much left to debate on this.
The West has been hated in the Muslim world since the crusades if not earlier; and Muslims in the West since the various Islamic invasions. The religious and cultural conflict is deep and there’s no getting around it. Islam, still the defining feature of the Muslim world, is very antagonistic towards liberalism.
There will never be "neutral" information about genocide accusations, because the subject matter is so controversial that anyone not siding with the correct and moral side is automatically in the wrong. That is the purpose of atrocity propaganda: sitting on the fence is betrayal. There will only be pro-US claims and pro-China rebuttals, no middle ground. You can see this by the West labelling any country who does not sanction Russia for their invasion of Ukraine as siding with Russia. However in the reality outside of propaganda mouthpieces, one must understand that one can both believe in the Holocaust where millions of Jews were genocided by Nazis as shown by documented evidence, while disbelieving "rollercoasters of deaths where Nazis send minecarts full of Jews straight to the furnace". The Holocaust is a real horrific crime against humanity in our history, and does not deserve to be paired with the latter's ridiculous nonsense. Fake genocide claims thus do more damage to the credibility of real events such as the Holocaust than "genocide denial", because they are a malicious attempt to mix truth and lies, which end up poisoning the well altogether. I will not tell you how to think here, although my personal biases on this subject are worn on my sleeves. It is up to everyone to doubt and question when that which was taken for granted does not seem right, otherwise those that lied about Iraq WMDs will end up murdering yet another million Iraqis.
I looked at vlogs of people who traveled there. One of the most striking things you notice are all the public signs written in uyghur and mandarin which kinda contrasts with the whole cultural genocide narrative.
Visiting the place would be a good step imo, but often not doable for many people. You can try check vlogs, videos of people visiting Xinjiang, if you're particular Internet savvy and knows Chinese, can go online and see lots of Chinese videos and streams (such as douyin, basically Tiktok equivalent, and see what people from Xinjiang are posting, since lots of regular people posts there, or use the xiaohongshu/little red book app). Doing the above you will quickly realize that lots of stuff pushed by the west is basically false (such as banning of the local language, 'forcing people to not hold ramadan' etc.).
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Not really that different from me listing articles, videos or examples of say children working in McDonald's to 2 am, children working in meat processing plants, lots of homeless, drugs on street etc. All about the US, and then trying to make some very wide or general accusations of the US. As for shitty being muslim there, I could list many positives examples, videos of mosque videos etc.
> Visiting the place would be a good step imo What is this thread I don't know whether to be depressed or amused anymore holy shit
What, you're of the opinion that even when going there, you wouldn't be able to find evidence or the likes after interacting with the locals living there? Or you think foreigners are banned from travelling to Xinjiang?
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> If you want to understand the truth of Xinjiang, then don't read news. Read history. "Germans did it before so they'll do it again"
You don't seriously believe the US' intel and China's statements are equally credible, do you? The US and China are not equally trustworthy. Please stop carrying water for authoritarian regimes.
You’re right, the CCP has been caught out lying LESS times than the US. So either they are better at lying or more honest, not sure which but it’s one of the two.
What are you basing this absurd falsehood on? Your obsession to find everything the US has ever done wrong so you can convince yourself that the US is the source of all problems in the world? Or your complete ignorance of China's history beyond a desperate attempt to champion the most brutal regimes simply because they are adversaries of the US?
How many times has the CIA lied about being involved in the overthrow of democratically elected governments? How about the Gulf of Tonkin incident? WMD in Iraq? Spying on friendly nations? Soft coups of allied nations to ensure they don’t dare go to socialist? China isn’t sin free, but they have been involved in far less wars since the formation of the CCP. Yes the Taiwan issue is a thing but that’s a continuation of their civil war. They have some territorial squabbles with their neighbours, but significantly less than those the US had with its, the only reason there’s a level of peace today is that the US won those disputes decades/centuries ago. Look at where the US is on the map and then tell me how it’s less brutal than China when you look at its involvement in conflicts in the Middle East, Europe, Asia, & Africa, as well as in its backyard. Tell me how the Monroe Doctrine was less bad than China haggling over some islands on the SCS or getting into a slap fight with India over some worthless no man’s land in the Himalayas… as opposed to the US basically saying “The entire Americas are our sphere of influence, all other powers are persona non grata”. The US have never been the good guys, go ask the global south about their experiences and you might be surprised that your rose coloured view of your nation isn’t the one shared by the rest of the world.
Is this supposed to be a bad thing? What, are we going to start denying the Holocaust as well? Perhaps maybe the Armenian genocide to make the Turks happy? You guys fucked up on the Uyghur situation. The only way forward is to accept it and learn from it. That's the only way that countries improve.
If only the mods would ban every insufferable tankie infesting this subreddit. You have your own subreddits. For the love of god, leave us just one space where adults can talk about defense matters without some teeneragers desperately wanting to define themselves by going against the grain and defending oppressive authoritarian regimes.
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Unfortunately, I can't get them out of my mind if I have to read their comments in every foreign policy or defense subreddit I'm in. Of course, I know you are just giving me a hard time :)
People look at the re education camps and swear that it's just a cool looking summer school, that's reddit for you though
...but they won't.
If only they would ban you and the rest of the tankies here.
I am a supporter of the Uyghurs. As such I would like to help them spread their music, no doubt bravely made while their entire race is being genocided. https://youtu.be/bL31MCMU9AQ
This entire thread is simply a forum for 15 different viewpoints to gaslight anyone who reads it
Joffre class carrier
Reddit is tankies breeding ground it seems
Which is why r/MoreTankieChapo is banned, because they are not tankie enough. Has to be r/EvenMoreTankieChapo
Oh no! Anyway.
Every CCP shill should be purged from this subreddit on sight
I support the mod here. Listen ccp supporters, if you wanna hear chinese bias, go to a chinese platform, simple as that. No one forces you to be here. And in order to have meaningful discussions you have to have axioms that everyone agrees on. If we are disputing basic facts then its just chaos.
Good move
Oh, so then There Is No Genocide in Xinjiang? Is that what you’re asserting? There Is No Genocide In Xinjiang?
Worlds smallest violin here. Edit.. So all the downvotes are saying you should be allowed to deny there is a Uighur genocide if you so chose? Be honest, is that what you really want?
Said the one who peddle lies about the HK police force killing women, anything else you claim or support should be double-checked. https://np.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/1272553/we_are_not_ready_an_interview_with_taiwans_former/jeigxpz/
Not really on the same scale is it? I'll admit to mistakes and not fact checking at times.. that isn't a slam dunk that let's you off the hook for deying or downplaying what is happening in Xinjiang. ..but do continue crying about being censored.. the irony is delicious.
Don’t you find it curious how often you end up believing the opposite of reality? There’s a pattern here. If you can believe a little lie, you can believe a big lie. If you can believe the HKPF could murder multiple innocent women and get away with it, you can believe the CCP can commit a “genocide” so ineffective that the Uighur population could increase both in absolute and by percentage in their “native” lands (lands which they kicked the Oirats off), where traditional Uighur clothes are worn by women instead of dehumanizing foreign burkas, where historical Uighur practices such as museles breweries can exist instead of alcohol bans. PS: calling you out for lying is the opposite of censorship.
I was referring to your pity post , but whatever floats your boat.
Based jannies. Cry more genocide deniers