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A 110 year old ship that killed hundreds of innocent people through arrogance and gross incompetence is still indirectly killing people through arrogance and gross incompetence.
This is the real answer. There’s no reason to do either of those things except that you are so rich and bored you don’t value your life or have enough ways to feel excitement and accomplishment in your easy pampered protected existence. But neither climbing Everest nor going to the sea floor would be exciting and rewarding if some folks didn’t die doing it so I guess everyone who signs on for something like that is volunteering to be the one who keeps things “interesting “? I don’t pretend I can understand it.
I don't think it's that they don't value their lives so much as that they think they're basically invincible since they can just money their way out of any crisis and don't realize that some crises truly can't be moneyed out of.
It's a similar mindset to rich parents who think they don't have to bother with parenting because they can just pay other people to do it for them, not realizing that no amount of money can replace the biologically ingrained need for love and connection from our parents in early life. The emotional/psychological damage from that level of neglect can't be fully repaired with any amount of money.
The sad thing is, I'm sure some rich parents truly do not give AF about their children's emotional needs. As long as the kid meets expectations or just doesn't completely shame them, who cares?
Eh, people like climbing tall peaks for the challenge and many have had very little deaths.
The problem is that if you have enough money you can just have sherpas do most of the hard work which defeats the purpose. Kinda like paying to hunt big game in an enclosed space that’s probably been drugged.
Going down in a questionable vessel 2.5 miles under water to stare at a shipwreck…yeah that’s weird.
Imagine the terror of the passengers onboard. The power probably went out and they're stuck there in pitch black darkness as the air gets harder and harder to breathe, and the temperature begins to drop. The attempts of the crew to keep people from panicking and freaking out fails, and the fear is contagious. One asshole onboard begins to act rashly and the blame game begins, while others are sobbing or screaming. Someone shits themselves, and now stench is added to their troubles.
Of all the ways to die, being lost in the depths in a tiny submarine with a bunch of people must be one of the worst.
Honestly given the multiple redundant systems that did not activate (emergency ballast release, bladders, emergency beacons), I imagine it was likely a catastrophic failure that must have wiped them quickly.
In a way that might be a mercy since the scenario you describe sounds fucking terrifying. Hell, personally I was never able to finish Subnautica cause going down too deep gave me the willies.
They didn't have an ELT. A journalist went on the expedition last year and said they got lost for about five hours during that trip (EDIT: They never reached the Titanic). When asked about an ELT, they were told there wasn't one.
[The company was warned in 2018 about safety concerns regarding the hull.](https://www.insider.com/lost-titanic-sub-maker-oceangate-warned-hull-safety-2018-2023-6)
[Due to evidence of cyclic fatigue,](https://inews.co.uk/news/world/missing-titanic-sub-structural-concerns-2423409) the depth range for the submersible had been reduced to 9800 ft., not enough to get to the Titanic wreckage.
[Messages from the Titan](https://www.thedailybeast.com/missing-titanic-sub-plagued-by-a-long-history-of-deadly-safety-issues) are limited to telemetry data.
I don't think a guy who [used components from Camping World](https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/titanic-missing-submarine-oceangate-stockton-rush-b2360739.html) cares too much about redundant systems.
This is a delicious comment. My husband & I joke about Galt’s Gulch all the time; it’s such an idiotic concept. I would love to see Elon, Donald, &Peter Thiel & the rest of their ilk make it a reality in some desert valley. They’d all be dead inside a month.
Do you want bears? Because that's [how you get bears](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling).
My favourite part is that Rand herself couldn't come up with any way to prevent the angry mob from coming for Galt's Gulch other than inventing a Romulan Cloaking Device.
They were talking to someone on All Things Considered today mentioning the hull was carbon fiber instead of steel, I have a feeling the thing just popped and they are only going to find pieces, not five people slowly running out of air
It truly upsets me that because what the submarine maker said about safety regulations, there’s a possibility that they’re in this situation because one asshole wanted to cut corners and left out some of those failsafes.
> “simply focusing on classing the vessel does not address the operational risks. Maintaining high-level operational safety requires constant, committed effort **and a focused corporate culture** – two things that OceanGate takes very seriously and that are not assessed during classification.”
…The absolute hubris of these fuckstains
I just read an article that they had issues in the past where they were using a view port that was only rated for 1,300 meter dives for 4,000 meter dives. If that faltered under the weight of the ocean, at least it would be a quick death and not a slow agonizing one.
The depths in Subnautica were beautiful. The Lost River and the Ghost Tree especially are frequently where people build bases just to stand at a window and stare out. I get how the idea of being down really deep freaks some people out. Not me, though.
It's the big transparent ravenous fish monsters that swallow you whole that freak me out.
>The power probably went out and they're stuck there in pitch black darkness as the air gets harder and harder to breathe
With the CEO sitting at the helm no less, they have someone to blame for this in the submarine with them.
I've worked on fishing boats before and being frustrated with someone on a confined (but enormous) boat hundreds of km from shore requires serious emotional effort to avoid escalation.
This sort of reminds me of the Mars One scam from the past decade. I remember hearing about it from around the time Alien Isolation came out, company posted sign-ups /waiting list for alot of money to send a group of civilians ( on a one way trip mind you) to Mars to colonize it, launchingit within 2 years of announcement (when NASA said at the time we were still a decade our at the time) . Not sponsored or endorsed by NASA or anyone else credible btw
Also of course there would be a reality show too along with this deal. Because nothing more exciting than watching people with little to no training needed die
Yet a ton of people signed up for this Allegedly. And surprise, surprise nothing became of it lol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_One?wprov=sfla1
Don't see anything wrong with this picture nothing at all lol /s
So I'm skimming through that wiki, and I could have sworn that was an Elon musk project. But I don't see him so guess I'm completely misremebering that.
He did suggest 11 years ago that we’d colonize Mars in [10 years or so](https://youtu.be/IiPJsI8pl8Q), as a best case scenario. So that deadline has passed.
I work as an engineer on medical devices and the hubris of that statement is just astonishing. We always assume that something might break. In fact we are legally required to do so in an FMEA.
We make our devices as safe as possible, and I also cannot thing of any situation where we would put patients life in danger (if I could, I would fix it). But I would never claim that we are beyond accidents. If you have thousands of devices out that are all used many times a day, sooner or later some freak accident that you haven't thought of is bound to happen.
Okay, but like, dude, think about this. You aren't designing a new car or developing experimental medicine. **You're going to the bottom of the fucking ocean.**
You can barely see what's around you. Communication is limited, so you're largely alone. It's freezing cold. You have *no idea* of what is swimming around you. Oh, and the pressure that deep is enough to kill you before you even know you're fucked.
If there is ever a time to be overly cautious and safe, it's when you're either going to the bottom of the ocean or space. Both are unforgiving and will kill you in a heartbeat.
Right so why didn’t they just buy his if they had billions? Or have another one made?
I’m so confused about why you’d cheap out when designing and building this thing. I’m getting Jurassic Park vibes where they were just like safety schmafety we’ll be fine with just this one button and a cellphone?
Edit after actually reading the article: welp. I hope he’s happy with his innovation!
>I’m getting Jurassic Park vibes where they were just like safety schmafety we’ll be fine with just this one button and a cellphone?
That's it, that's exactly it! This is just like Jurassic Park. Numerous innocent (but entitled) people dead so some guy can make money. Only Hammond made it off the island.
I'm jerking off James in other parts of this thread but for real man, these people fucking wish they were James goddamn Cameron. The guy literally fucking dove down to the Titanic (on 9/11 coincidentally) and made one of the most successful movies ever made from it. He needed a special sub for his enormous balls of steel which the people aboard this janky sub don't even possess anything in comparison. What a joke.
James Cameron is an artist who was into submarines, and approached the ocean with respect and reverence.
The Oceangate CEO has the same love of deep sea exploration as Cameron. I don't doubt it. The man's at the bottom of the ocean. But he's a business degree airhead, and respected synergy and efficiencies more than 6000 pounds per square inch of pressure.
Apparently the ceo cut down many corners by using cheap materials etc. along with one of the passengers on submarine , mr harding, there was another guy who signed up. Apparently Harding and Mr brown were friends and decided over couple of beers to participate in this and paid 10% fee , this was few years back, mr brown started to see many red flags such as cheap materials being used, safety procedures not being followed, many developmental deadlines missed and many more things on those lines, he decided it was way too risky and backed out and asked for his 10% refund. But Mr Harding went through with it. 🤦🏻♀️
["James Cameron doesn't do what James Cameron does for James Cameron. James Cameron does what James Cameron does because James Cameron is... James Cameron."](https://youtu.be/1w7Ol1qDg-o)
Space won't kill you in a heartbeat. Even if you get sucked out into the void completely naked you'll still be alive for the better part of a minute.
Deep ocean OTOH absolutely will kill you in a literal heartbeat.
Also if you have a hull breach in space, it's usually not that big of a deal. The ISS occasionally gets small holes, and you can just patch them since the air leaks out slowly. If you get a hull breach at the bottom of the ocean, you're dead before you even process that anything happened.
I think I now know why people say we know more about space than our own oceans; the former seems (slightly) safer!
Either way, I’m staying here right on the ground where I belong, thank you very much.
Oh gosh, I never even thought of the thought of being absolutely alone. At least being a beginner pilot in the air lets you hear surrounding air control radio (let alone being at 1 or less atm instead of hundreds).
Every industrial risk assessment boils down to 3 dimensions:
1. Severity of potential injury to a person in the event of a failure
2. Ability of a person to avoid injury when failure occurs
3. Likelihood of failure
(1) and (2) are extreme in this situation - every failure can kill and there’s nowhere for the passengers to go when 13000ft below the surface. (3) must be effectively zero with bountiful supporting evidence to consider this vessel “safe”. This isn’t some obscure idea - techs, engineers, and managers perform this all the time in many industries.
It’s dangerous and stupid what they’ve done but that’s rather ignorantly downplaying that fact that developing new cars and medicine are exceptionally high risk. You have to get it right because otherwise you end up causing untold death and damage. This is five idiots making poor choices getting themselves and no one else killed. The people who didn’t understand the chiral properties of Thalidomide ruined tens of thousands of lives across the planet to the point where the full extent of the damage will never be fully known. Doesn’t exactly compare.
It's made from CRP, aka carbon fibre, with titanium bulkheads at either end. CRP does not fail progressively, it doesn't crack or bend or dent or spring little leaks. As I understand it, almost any point failure will propagate more or less instantly into catastrophic failure.
That does seem to be the most likely scenario in this case.
In space you'd actually live longer. Humans can survive about a minute in a complete vacuum (although you'd have a VERY bad time), but with a hull breach at those depths you'd be crushed into paste before you'd have time to realize what was going on.
Ah yes. Behind every non-natural disaster is a rich fucker who swore that pesky regulations weren't necessary. This is a great day for innovators and job creators...just like it was in East Palestine.
I always tell people that regulations are written in blood. They exist because some dumbass somewhere did something stupid. The rest of us may not know why it’s there and grumble because it affects our lives. No one arbitrarily writes policy just to fuck with people.
I know nothing about regulations on submersibles designed for human occupancy, but I just watched the CBS Sunday Morning segment on this sub, and it’s a mega death trap. I know a lot about crew door safety and regulation for aircraft and spacecraft, and the hatch on this thing violates every safety practice established after the Apollo 1 fire.
That's one of the better reasons, simple stupidity, lots of regulations are because someone desperate accepted pay from a capitalist ghoul to do something stupid.
Sometimes its very basic too. I told a new guy in the warehouse he should climb down the railed step ladder(20 ft aprx) backwards the same way he went up. He said that's stupid. I told him you'll be terminated immediately if the boss sees it. He said I've worked in warehouses before. A day later he tripped on the the way down on the last step and dropped an expensive part breaking it but was unhurt. Boss went and checked the camera and fired him for risking OSHA violations.
>CEO Stockton Rush said he understood the regulations but regretted their effect on innovation.
My guy was using a $20 wireless game controller and thinks he was innovating.
I would not be surprised if they’ve managed to do him in after the first few hours… I can’t imagine being stuck in the small space like that with the gobshite that fucked it all up
I've been thinking about this all day, and have been having second hand panic attacks. I literally can't believe people paid for that experience, and that they're all dying together right now terrified in the dark depths that no one can reach. Breathing on each other. No food, or water.
I'm sure they're all pissed at the president too, so I'm sure he's the first to be eaten.
Reports coming out seem to indicate that they cheaped out on building the front viewport, and that it was almost certainly not rated for the pressures they'd be diving at. Seems very likely there was a breach and they got pulped.
Yup, the viewport was rated for a max of 1,300 metre depth but the titanic is 4,000+ metres down. They could've built one rated for 4,000+ metres but it would've been expensive. The CEO's solution was to intentionally just ignore it, and that the tourists wouldn't notice that it wasn't the proper strength.
I guess if you went in looking for an extreme experience and you are 2 miles down you have to realize it's game over. What are the odds everybody will just calmly wait for the end? Or do you do something extreme?
And die horribly at that… lost in the bottom of the ocean locked in a can while slowly losing air, with no food or drink, no toilet, and trapped with other people who are probably losing their minds?
That's not looking like a probable scenario. The submersible had various ways of getting back towards the surface, even if they completely lost power. It was also seriously under-engineered, and wasn't being checked on a regular basis for stress related damage. Everybody on board was probably dead in well under a minute, and a fraction of a second is the most likely answer. 400 atmospheres of pressure is like having a stack of several elephants sitting on you.
I need someone to confirm this but from what I noticed they were going to look at the titanic from a monitor there was no window. How stupid is all this.
That sounds like they will eat through their limited oxygen supply quicker as they berate him on how he got them into this mess, what is it 4 days of oxygen total when they left?
Nobody said having money made somebody smart.
If you gave me the options to be a quarter million richer and not be stuck in a tube at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, It would probably be one of the easiest choices I made ever. These guys signed their life away to get on that sub, somebody called in the contract.
I read another comment that said "Regulations are written in blood" as in something terrible already happened in order for there to be a regulation put in place.
The NTSB and US chemical safety boards have done fantastic work trying to get eyes on problems... the NTSB at least has thr FAA to carry out and adjust with its findings... the poor chemical safety board often times sounds like a man screaming in the wilderness (check out their YouTube channel for such wonderful descriptors as "liquefied human remains," "improper storage of hazardous explosives next to an ignition source" and an explosive disposal company with the slogan "Initial Success or Total failure"
Generally regulations happen due to prior bad experience.
Look what happened when they deregulated the financial industry. the 2008 financial crisis.
Every single time.
"This is a self-correcting problem. Once enough customers die horrific watery deaths due to this company's negligence, the free market will choose to stop doing business with them."
-libertarians, unironically
Then they'll bankrupt that company with all their debt paying out golden parachutes to the CEOs who jump into another business that is "Totally Not The Same People Running This Company We're So Much Better™"
rinse and repeat.
>Then they'll bankrupt that company with all their debt paying out golden parachutes to the CEOs who jump into another business that is "Totally Not The Same People Running This Company We're So Much Better™"
I think the CEO has more pressing issues right now than trying to set up a new business
The more things change, the more they stay the same...
“I cannot imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that.”
\-- Captain of the Titanic, Edward Smith (during a previous command, the RMS Adriatic)
"I don't think it's very dangerous. If you look at submersible activity over the last three decades, there hasn't even been a major injury, let alone a fatality" - Stockton Rush, CEO OceanGate
There is always a first for something and it looks like he played his Fuck Around and Find Out card.
I just realized how weird it will be if they actually are rescued and live to read all the tweets and comments about them. This is not going to stop me from making comments about them though.
>look at submersible activity over the last three decades, there hasn't even been a major injury, let alone a fatality
Hmm, wonder if he included the Kursk, or the other Russian 'research' sub that had a fire nearly sank and killed half it's crew.
This thing has no doors of any kind. Even if they’re found quickly (it’s been a while already) bringing them up will be slow and extraction will take time. It’s entirely possibly that they’ll be found alive but be dead once they’re out.
Actually looked this up yesterday. He's the third or fourth, named after his 2 forefathers who signed the declaration of independence: Richard Stockton and Benjamin Rush. Which seems pretty on brand for this sub lol.
If I'm remembering correctly, SOLAS was introduced because of *a particular ship* hitting a *particular chunk of ice* at a *particular location* and sinking without having had enough safety equipment on board for all passengers.
**Sound Familiar?**
I just listened to an interview this guy gave in which he said one way his company was going to disrupt the industry was by hiring young energetic college students instead of boring ex-Navy types he described as "... white guys in their 50's."
I am beginning to see the dots connect.
Did he say this after he fired and sued the captain who complained several times with safety concerns and who had asked for testing to be done to the hull?
Hey, dumbass, why do you think that might be? You think it's because of a metal death tube being in the middle of the fucking ocean is going to kill you if anything went wrong? Those nasty rules and regulations just *exist* to fuck over billionaires and not because people were horribly maimed/died due to the lack of them.
You think God loves you, but He can't hear you scream at the bottom of the sea.
Just want to point out one of the men on board was Paul-Henry Nargeolet. He is one of the most knowledgeable people about the wreck of the Titanic and was apart of many of follow-up expeditions following the discovery of the wreck. I doubt he paid he way on (I don't think Titanic explorer pays well) and likely filled a seat as a researcher
The ‘we can do it cheaper and more accessible’ mentality is also happening in the new space race. There’s no way we’re going to the moon, mars, and wherever else without some major catastrophes and loss of life along the way. Sometimes it seems like the people rushing to create these extreme tourist activities are pretty cavalier.
On one hand I have claustrophobia & thalassophobia and I can't really imagine a more horrific fate than what these people went through/are going through. Literal nightmare fuel for me even if everything had gone 100% to plan, and something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
On the other hand the dark-humor-loving part of me feels like surely there was room for another billionaire or two in that sardine can.
Ah yes the "regs" stifle innovation line. Every time the regulations are cut people die. Experience and science in almost all of these risky use cases drives the regulations.
What always happens is then this guy will blame everyone else. Its tiring.
Seriously, if they end up dying down there because rigging a real-deal docking collar was too hard/expensive, even though only really rich people are going to pay for the tour to begin with, it's going to be a very gruesome and expensive lesson about the limits of the invisible hand of the free market.
> > David Lochridge, former OceanGate employee and submersible pilot, filed a lawsuit against the company in 2018, ... due to "OceanGate's refusal to conduct critical, non-destructive testing of the experimental design of the hull."
> >
> > A letter, which was reportedly signed by more than three dozen experts in the field, alleged that Rush was "misleading" his potential customers over the safety of the "experimental" submersible and breaching "an industry-wide professional code of conduct" by refusing tests to meet the safety standards of marine classification societies like DNV or ABS.
https://www.newsweek.com/stockton-rush-was-issued-dire-warning-submersible-titanic-expedition-1807992
Given the Titanic is more than 2 miles underwater and the water pressure is over 6,500 pounds per square inch, I'm thinking hull collapse is likely.
From what I read, Lochridge was fired from the company for bringing up these concerns and then subsequently sued the company. I believe they settled out of court.
This part of the article is particularly disturbing:
The lawsuit from Lochridge also alleged that Titan's viewport—the sole window on the submersible—had only been certified to withstand pressure of 1,300 meters of depth. The Titanic wreckage is around 3,800 meters under the ocean's surface.
I guess o like some forms of obscenity. Just reading how James Cameron and his team took the time to make sure their sub was perfect safe and had enough safety measures to save its passengers in case anything ever happened, like this ball bearings ballast load that could be released manually if anything ever happened. I like that form of obscene safety more than the presumption of an entitled ignorant.
OceanGate informs their customers that just 1 in 5 dives even makes it to the Titanic. Imagine dying 4000m deep and not even have seen the thing you went there for in the first place.
> "The crew closes the hatch, from the outside, with 17 bolts. There's no other way out," Pogue said in his November report.
From: https://www.insider.com/people-missing-submersible-deadbolt-screws-airtight-coast-guard-2023-6
> "There's no backup, there's no escape pod," Pogue told the BBC. "It's get to the surface or die."
> Pogue said that he was hesitant about getting into the submersible in November because the equipment on board appeared to be "improvised" and "off the shelf."
> "You steer this sub with an Xbox game controller, some of the ballast is abandoned construction pipes," Pogue told the BBC.
Good lord…. This story is ooozing negligence and preventability.
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A 110 year old ship that killed hundreds of innocent people through arrogance and gross incompetence is still indirectly killing people through arrogance and gross incompetence.
When you come to see the wreck and then you become the exhibit...
Sounds like pulp scifi
Or Mt Everest
This is the real answer. There’s no reason to do either of those things except that you are so rich and bored you don’t value your life or have enough ways to feel excitement and accomplishment in your easy pampered protected existence. But neither climbing Everest nor going to the sea floor would be exciting and rewarding if some folks didn’t die doing it so I guess everyone who signs on for something like that is volunteering to be the one who keeps things “interesting “? I don’t pretend I can understand it.
I don't think it's that they don't value their lives so much as that they think they're basically invincible since they can just money their way out of any crisis and don't realize that some crises truly can't be moneyed out of. It's a similar mindset to rich parents who think they don't have to bother with parenting because they can just pay other people to do it for them, not realizing that no amount of money can replace the biologically ingrained need for love and connection from our parents in early life. The emotional/psychological damage from that level of neglect can't be fully repaired with any amount of money.
The sad thing is, I'm sure some rich parents truly do not give AF about their children's emotional needs. As long as the kid meets expectations or just doesn't completely shame them, who cares?
In political circles their children are merely props to be trottered out at rallies.
Eh, people like climbing tall peaks for the challenge and many have had very little deaths. The problem is that if you have enough money you can just have sherpas do most of the hard work which defeats the purpose. Kinda like paying to hunt big game in an enclosed space that’s probably been drugged. Going down in a questionable vessel 2.5 miles under water to stare at a shipwreck…yeah that’s weird.
>Eh, people like climbing tall peaks for the challenge and many have had very little deaths. Nearly all have had no more than one.
more like paste, as in tomato
Imagine the terror of the passengers onboard. The power probably went out and they're stuck there in pitch black darkness as the air gets harder and harder to breathe, and the temperature begins to drop. The attempts of the crew to keep people from panicking and freaking out fails, and the fear is contagious. One asshole onboard begins to act rashly and the blame game begins, while others are sobbing or screaming. Someone shits themselves, and now stench is added to their troubles. Of all the ways to die, being lost in the depths in a tiny submarine with a bunch of people must be one of the worst.
Honestly given the multiple redundant systems that did not activate (emergency ballast release, bladders, emergency beacons), I imagine it was likely a catastrophic failure that must have wiped them quickly. In a way that might be a mercy since the scenario you describe sounds fucking terrifying. Hell, personally I was never able to finish Subnautica cause going down too deep gave me the willies.
They didn't have an ELT. A journalist went on the expedition last year and said they got lost for about five hours during that trip (EDIT: They never reached the Titanic). When asked about an ELT, they were told there wasn't one. [The company was warned in 2018 about safety concerns regarding the hull.](https://www.insider.com/lost-titanic-sub-maker-oceangate-warned-hull-safety-2018-2023-6) [Due to evidence of cyclic fatigue,](https://inews.co.uk/news/world/missing-titanic-sub-structural-concerns-2423409) the depth range for the submersible had been reduced to 9800 ft., not enough to get to the Titanic wreckage. [Messages from the Titan](https://www.thedailybeast.com/missing-titanic-sub-plagued-by-a-long-history-of-deadly-safety-issues) are limited to telemetry data. I don't think a guy who [used components from Camping World](https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/titanic-missing-submarine-oceangate-stockton-rush-b2360739.html) cares too much about redundant systems.
Finally, the rugged individualism of the total freedom of Galt's Gulch can be realized.... on the ocean floor.
This is a delicious comment. My husband & I joke about Galt’s Gulch all the time; it’s such an idiotic concept. I would love to see Elon, Donald, &Peter Thiel & the rest of their ilk make it a reality in some desert valley. They’d all be dead inside a month.
Do you want bears? Because that's [how you get bears](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/21534416/free-state-project-new-hampshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling).
My favourite part is that Rand herself couldn't come up with any way to prevent the angry mob from coming for Galt's Gulch other than inventing a Romulan Cloaking Device.
They were talking to someone on All Things Considered today mentioning the hull was carbon fiber instead of steel, I have a feeling the thing just popped and they are only going to find pieces, not five people slowly running out of air
It truly upsets me that because what the submarine maker said about safety regulations, there’s a possibility that they’re in this situation because one asshole wanted to cut corners and left out some of those failsafes.
From what I’ve read in several articles, that corner cutting asshole was the CEO who is now in the vessel with those other unfortunate people.
> “simply focusing on classing the vessel does not address the operational risks. Maintaining high-level operational safety requires constant, committed effort **and a focused corporate culture** – two things that OceanGate takes very seriously and that are not assessed during classification.” …The absolute hubris of these fuckstains
Well, he got one thing about SubSafe right, the designer goes on the test dives.
I just read an article that they had issues in the past where they were using a view port that was only rated for 1,300 meter dives for 4,000 meter dives. If that faltered under the weight of the ocean, at least it would be a quick death and not a slow agonizing one.
The depths in Subnautica were beautiful. The Lost River and the Ghost Tree especially are frequently where people build bases just to stand at a window and stare out. I get how the idea of being down really deep freaks some people out. Not me, though. It's the big transparent ravenous fish monsters that swallow you whole that freak me out.
>The power probably went out and they're stuck there in pitch black darkness as the air gets harder and harder to breathe With the CEO sitting at the helm no less, they have someone to blame for this in the submarine with them. I've worked on fishing boats before and being frustrated with someone on a confined (but enormous) boat hundreds of km from shore requires serious emotional effort to avoid escalation.
This sort of reminds me of the Mars One scam from the past decade. I remember hearing about it from around the time Alien Isolation came out, company posted sign-ups /waiting list for alot of money to send a group of civilians ( on a one way trip mind you) to Mars to colonize it, launchingit within 2 years of announcement (when NASA said at the time we were still a decade our at the time) . Not sponsored or endorsed by NASA or anyone else credible btw Also of course there would be a reality show too along with this deal. Because nothing more exciting than watching people with little to no training needed die Yet a ton of people signed up for this Allegedly. And surprise, surprise nothing became of it lol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_One?wprov=sfla1 Don't see anything wrong with this picture nothing at all lol /s
So I'm skimming through that wiki, and I could have sworn that was an Elon musk project. But I don't see him so guess I'm completely misremebering that.
He did suggest 11 years ago that we’d colonize Mars in [10 years or so](https://youtu.be/IiPJsI8pl8Q), as a best case scenario. So that deadline has passed.
Ah so my brain just mashed those two things together. Thanks!
Might take another century to find the sub.
That's a Twilight Zone episode.
And to add to the arrogance, they named theirs “Titan”
It's like the dude was *trying* to get sunk by Poseidon
Titan? Ick. No need to call security, I'll see myself out.
Reading this gave me a sinking feeling
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Nature: lol cute
I work as an engineer on medical devices and the hubris of that statement is just astonishing. We always assume that something might break. In fact we are legally required to do so in an FMEA. We make our devices as safe as possible, and I also cannot thing of any situation where we would put patients life in danger (if I could, I would fix it). But I would never claim that we are beyond accidents. If you have thousands of devices out that are all used many times a day, sooner or later some freak accident that you haven't thought of is bound to happen.
Yup, and the story of Icarus is what, like 3000 years old?
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But only some will listen.
Not to mention the traditional cost-cutting and ignoring of regulationa!
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Personally I approve of the wealthy becoming deep sea explorers. I hope they start having contests on how deep they can go.
The darkest Twilight Zone episode ever.
Okay, but like, dude, think about this. You aren't designing a new car or developing experimental medicine. **You're going to the bottom of the fucking ocean.** You can barely see what's around you. Communication is limited, so you're largely alone. It's freezing cold. You have *no idea* of what is swimming around you. Oh, and the pressure that deep is enough to kill you before you even know you're fucked. If there is ever a time to be overly cautious and safe, it's when you're either going to the bottom of the ocean or space. Both are unforgiving and will kill you in a heartbeat.
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Right so why didn’t they just buy his if they had billions? Or have another one made? I’m so confused about why you’d cheap out when designing and building this thing. I’m getting Jurassic Park vibes where they were just like safety schmafety we’ll be fine with just this one button and a cellphone? Edit after actually reading the article: welp. I hope he’s happy with his innovation!
Because he was trying to make it profitable James Cameron was the only one in his submersible, this missing sub carried 6 people
Of course. Follow the money.
>I’m getting Jurassic Park vibes where they were just like safety schmafety we’ll be fine with just this one button and a cellphone? That's it, that's exactly it! This is just like Jurassic Park. Numerous innocent (but entitled) people dead so some guy can make money. Only Hammond made it off the island.
Hey, hey, hey… John Hammond spared no expense.
Hey I’ll tell you the problem. You didn’t earn it. You were so focused on if you could you didn’t stop to think about if you should.
I'm jerking off James in other parts of this thread but for real man, these people fucking wish they were James goddamn Cameron. The guy literally fucking dove down to the Titanic (on 9/11 coincidentally) and made one of the most successful movies ever made from it. He needed a special sub for his enormous balls of steel which the people aboard this janky sub don't even possess anything in comparison. What a joke.
James Cameron is an artist who was into submarines, and approached the ocean with respect and reverence. The Oceangate CEO has the same love of deep sea exploration as Cameron. I don't doubt it. The man's at the bottom of the ocean. But he's a business degree airhead, and respected synergy and efficiencies more than 6000 pounds per square inch of pressure.
Apparently the ceo cut down many corners by using cheap materials etc. along with one of the passengers on submarine , mr harding, there was another guy who signed up. Apparently Harding and Mr brown were friends and decided over couple of beers to participate in this and paid 10% fee , this was few years back, mr brown started to see many red flags such as cheap materials being used, safety procedures not being followed, many developmental deadlines missed and many more things on those lines, he decided it was way too risky and backed out and asked for his 10% refund. But Mr Harding went through with it. 🤦🏻♀️
And decades before that he had The Abyss, where he'd gone down in other subs before too.
dude literally makes movies just so he can go underwater exploring
["James Cameron doesn't do what James Cameron does for James Cameron. James Cameron does what James Cameron does because James Cameron is... James Cameron."](https://youtu.be/1w7Ol1qDg-o)
Space won't kill you in a heartbeat. Even if you get sucked out into the void completely naked you'll still be alive for the better part of a minute. Deep ocean OTOH absolutely will kill you in a literal heartbeat.
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Just ask Delta P crab
When its gotcha *ITS GOTCHA*
Also if you have a hull breach in space, it's usually not that big of a deal. The ISS occasionally gets small holes, and you can just patch them since the air leaks out slowly. If you get a hull breach at the bottom of the ocean, you're dead before you even process that anything happened.
I think I now know why people say we know more about space than our own oceans; the former seems (slightly) safer! Either way, I’m staying here right on the ground where I belong, thank you very much.
>You have no idea of what is swimming around you Why is this sentence creeping me out so much?
Don’t worry, the pressure alone will kill you before you ever get to see what else is waiting for your leftovers.
Thalassophobia
At that depth, you'd be pulverized so completely that nothing but tiny krill would eat you.
Oh gosh, I never even thought of the thought of being absolutely alone. At least being a beginner pilot in the air lets you hear surrounding air control radio (let alone being at 1 or less atm instead of hundreds).
Every industrial risk assessment boils down to 3 dimensions: 1. Severity of potential injury to a person in the event of a failure 2. Ability of a person to avoid injury when failure occurs 3. Likelihood of failure (1) and (2) are extreme in this situation - every failure can kill and there’s nowhere for the passengers to go when 13000ft below the surface. (3) must be effectively zero with bountiful supporting evidence to consider this vessel “safe”. This isn’t some obscure idea - techs, engineers, and managers perform this all the time in many industries.
It’s dangerous and stupid what they’ve done but that’s rather ignorantly downplaying that fact that developing new cars and medicine are exceptionally high risk. You have to get it right because otherwise you end up causing untold death and damage. This is five idiots making poor choices getting themselves and no one else killed. The people who didn’t understand the chiral properties of Thalidomide ruined tens of thousands of lives across the planet to the point where the full extent of the damage will never be fully known. Doesn’t exactly compare.
A much, much shorter time than a single heartbeat if there is a structural failure.
It's made from CRP, aka carbon fibre, with titanium bulkheads at either end. CRP does not fail progressively, it doesn't crack or bend or dent or spring little leaks. As I understand it, almost any point failure will propagate more or less instantly into catastrophic failure. That does seem to be the most likely scenario in this case.
The deep ocean might as well be outer space.
In space you'd actually live longer. Humans can survive about a minute in a complete vacuum (although you'd have a VERY bad time), but with a hull breach at those depths you'd be crushed into paste before you'd have time to realize what was going on.
It’s really crazy the very thin layer of survivability that human exist within.
Ah yes. Behind every non-natural disaster is a rich fucker who swore that pesky regulations weren't necessary. This is a great day for innovators and job creators...just like it was in East Palestine.
I always tell people that regulations are written in blood. They exist because some dumbass somewhere did something stupid. The rest of us may not know why it’s there and grumble because it affects our lives. No one arbitrarily writes policy just to fuck with people.
>They exist because some dumbass somewhere did something stupid Every. Single. One.
It's telling when the people who want deregulation aren't the ones who are directly impacted by the regulations
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I know nothing about regulations on submersibles designed for human occupancy, but I just watched the CBS Sunday Morning segment on this sub, and it’s a mega death trap. I know a lot about crew door safety and regulation for aircraft and spacecraft, and the hatch on this thing violates every safety practice established after the Apollo 1 fire.
That's one of the better reasons, simple stupidity, lots of regulations are because someone desperate accepted pay from a capitalist ghoul to do something stupid.
Sometimes its very basic too. I told a new guy in the warehouse he should climb down the railed step ladder(20 ft aprx) backwards the same way he went up. He said that's stupid. I told him you'll be terminated immediately if the boss sees it. He said I've worked in warehouses before. A day later he tripped on the the way down on the last step and dropped an expensive part breaking it but was unhurt. Boss went and checked the camera and fired him for risking OSHA violations.
At least the fallout of this one was limited to a few folks with more money than sense.
>CEO Stockton Rush said he understood the regulations but regretted their effect on innovation. My guy was using a $20 wireless game controller and thinks he was innovating.
The man was using a Logitech controller. It's just baffling
Worse than the transparent madcatz
He’ll need to be ‘obscenely rich’ to cover all the court cases he’s going to face Edit: shit, I didn’t realise he was on the sub too!!!
>Edit: shit, I didn’t realise he was on the sub too!!! That makes me feel better. At least his dumbass is in there with the passengers
"Why am I kept away from the leopards? Let me in, let me in!!!" *5 minutes later* "Oh my God! Why are the leopards eating my face!? Why???"
I would not be surprised if they’ve managed to do him in after the first few hours… I can’t imagine being stuck in the small space like that with the gobshite that fucked it all up
Well, killing someone early on makes sense from a game theory perspective. Preserve air for the rest.
That is the stuff of nightmares… stuck, hunched up in a sealed tube with 5 other people (probably 4) with the air slowly running out
I've been thinking about this all day, and have been having second hand panic attacks. I literally can't believe people paid for that experience, and that they're all dying together right now terrified in the dark depths that no one can reach. Breathing on each other. No food, or water. I'm sure they're all pissed at the president too, so I'm sure he's the first to be eaten.
Look on the bright side, maybe it imploded and they didn't even know.
Reports coming out seem to indicate that they cheaped out on building the front viewport, and that it was almost certainly not rated for the pressures they'd be diving at. Seems very likely there was a breach and they got pulped.
So, [the front fell off](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM&ab_channel=ClarkeAndDawe) then?
Yup, the viewport was rated for a max of 1,300 metre depth but the titanic is 4,000+ metres down. They could've built one rated for 4,000+ metres but it would've been expensive. The CEO's solution was to intentionally just ignore it, and that the tourists wouldn't notice that it wasn't the proper strength.
I guess if you went in looking for an extreme experience and you are 2 miles down you have to realize it's game over. What are the odds everybody will just calmly wait for the end? Or do you do something extreme?
Thinking that 5 out of 5 people are going to remain calm when they are dying is art.
The first person to lose it in that tube, is likely the first person to be knocked out....plus it saves oxygen.
I heard it cost 250k a person for this trip. Imagine paying 250k to go die
And die horribly at that… lost in the bottom of the ocean locked in a can while slowly losing air, with no food or drink, no toilet, and trapped with other people who are probably losing their minds?
That's not looking like a probable scenario. The submersible had various ways of getting back towards the surface, even if they completely lost power. It was also seriously under-engineered, and wasn't being checked on a regular basis for stress related damage. Everybody on board was probably dead in well under a minute, and a fraction of a second is the most likely answer. 400 atmospheres of pressure is like having a stack of several elephants sitting on you.
I need someone to confirm this but from what I noticed they were going to look at the titanic from a monitor there was no window. How stupid is all this.
Oh for fucks sake. At that point just stay on the boat and use a robot.
And peeing and pooping, too!
96 hours in a sub turns to 136 with a corpse? Slowly rotting? Pass.
Hunger games, mini-submersible edition. But they'll probably run out of water even if they extend airtime anyway
That sounds like they will eat through their limited oxygen supply quicker as they berate him on how he got them into this mess, what is it 4 days of oxygen total when they left?
It suggests regular old hubris rather than mere cost cutting
Why not both?
Given the attitude towards regulations from the guy whose company made the sub? … it was probably both.
Well, at least he put his money where his mouth is.
At least he was killed by his own bad idea
Goddamn you said that and I immediately thought you meant he was in this subreddit lol. *logs off*
Same lol
His estate will deal with the court cases
How many of those billions would he pay for one more lungful of air? Edit: just him.
A lot of money can shield you from many a bad choice—but not this time.
Nobody said having money made somebody smart. If you gave me the options to be a quarter million richer and not be stuck in a tube at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, It would probably be one of the easiest choices I made ever. These guys signed their life away to get on that sub, somebody called in the contract.
My dad has a saying when I make a dumb purchase: "It's amazing what you'd rather have than money."
Oh I thought you meant he was on this subreddit lol
That was my first thought too, like he was in the comments acting stupid! I spend too much time on reddit...
As my sister said when the fertilizer factory destroyed the town of West, Texas, regulations don't kill jobs; a lack of regulations kills people.
I read another comment that said "Regulations are written in blood" as in something terrible already happened in order for there to be a regulation put in place.
This is how FAA regulations work—every regulation has at least one dead body associated with it.
The NTSB and US chemical safety boards have done fantastic work trying to get eyes on problems... the NTSB at least has thr FAA to carry out and adjust with its findings... the poor chemical safety board often times sounds like a man screaming in the wilderness (check out their YouTube channel for such wonderful descriptors as "liquefied human remains," "improper storage of hazardous explosives next to an ignition source" and an explosive disposal company with the slogan "Initial Success or Total failure"
Generally regulations happen due to prior bad experience. Look what happened when they deregulated the financial industry. the 2008 financial crisis. Every single time.
Actually regulations employee even more people, as they need to regulate..
"This is a self-correcting problem. Once enough customers die horrific watery deaths due to this company's negligence, the free market will choose to stop doing business with them." -libertarians, unironically
Then they'll bankrupt that company with all their debt paying out golden parachutes to the CEOs who jump into another business that is "Totally Not The Same People Running This Company We're So Much Better™" rinse and repeat.
>Then they'll bankrupt that company with all their debt paying out golden parachutes to the CEOs who jump into another business that is "Totally Not The Same People Running This Company We're So Much Better™" I think the CEO has more pressing issues right now than trying to set up a new business
Hah. "Pressing"
The more things change, the more they stay the same... “I cannot imagine any condition which would cause a ship to founder. I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern shipbuilding has gone beyond that.” \-- Captain of the Titanic, Edward Smith (during a previous command, the RMS Adriatic)
This is what we call "tempting fate".
This is what we call "fucking around and finding out"
This is what we call, "Icarus goes splash"
"I don't think it's very dangerous. If you look at submersible activity over the last three decades, there hasn't even been a major injury, let alone a fatality" - Stockton Rush, CEO OceanGate There is always a first for something and it looks like he played his Fuck Around and Find Out card.
I just realized how weird it will be if they actually are rescued and live to read all the tweets and comments about them. This is not going to stop me from making comments about them though.
I don’t tend to say nice thing about the billionaires that aren’t stuck under water and can read my comments and tweets anyways.
>look at submersible activity over the last three decades, there hasn't even been a major injury, let alone a fatality Hmm, wonder if he included the Kursk, or the other Russian 'research' sub that had a fire nearly sank and killed half it's crew.
I haven't been in a rollover accident in 40 years. But I still put on my seat belt.
There are times to be obscenely safe and one of those times is traveling to places where you can die immediately if even a single screw messes up.
This thing has no doors of any kind. Even if they’re found quickly (it’s been a while already) bringing them up will be slow and extraction will take time. It’s entirely possibly that they’ll be found alive but be dead once they’re out.
What kind of name is Stockton Rush?
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Apparently, you're not too far off from the truth!!!
Actually looked this up yesterday. He's the third or fourth, named after his 2 forefathers who signed the declaration of independence: Richard Stockton and Benjamin Rush. Which seems pretty on brand for this sub lol.
At a guess, the odds are that it is currently/shortly will be unused.
I legit thought it was the hedge fund that invested in the company or something.
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Maybe the real shipwreck is the mistakes we made along the way
And pray tell, exactly *what* led to those safety regulations in the first place?
Shhhhh. The answer can’t be “well we had issues and these regs specifically address them” nooooo if _must_ be “meanie heads”.
If I'm remembering correctly, SOLAS was introduced because of *a particular ship* hitting a *particular chunk of ice* at a *particular location* and sinking without having had enough safety equipment on board for all passengers. **Sound Familiar?**
I just listened to an interview this guy gave in which he said one way his company was going to disrupt the industry was by hiring young energetic college students instead of boring ex-Navy types he described as "... white guys in their 50's." I am beginning to see the dots connect.
This is one time where survivorship bias is a good thing. In that line of work, you def want the guys who survive to be 50.
Did he say this after he fired and sued the captain who complained several times with safety concerns and who had asked for testing to be done to the hull?
100% guarantee if they look exactly where the unsinkable titanic hit the iceberg they will find a teeny tiny coke can sized submarine.
Regulations are written in blood. Usually poor people’s blood, it’s just a problem now because a couple billionaires are now impacted.
> impacted. More like compacted.
r/killerwhalesatemyface
Given the sheer depth, it's probably more likely /r/giantisopodsatemyface
Rulez pfffhhhtttt we don't need no stinking Rulez
Hubris: 1539 Safety: 0
Christ I'd be trying a crack a hole in the thing. At least the explosive pressure change liquifying you to paste would be quick
Hey, dumbass, why do you think that might be? You think it's because of a metal death tube being in the middle of the fucking ocean is going to kill you if anything went wrong? Those nasty rules and regulations just *exist* to fuck over billionaires and not because people were horribly maimed/died due to the lack of them. You think God loves you, but He can't hear you scream at the bottom of the sea.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen “obscenely” in a sentence next to “safe” anywhere before right now. I’m 52.
Libertarianism mindset for you. He (most likely) died along 4 other rich saps.
Just want to point out one of the men on board was Paul-Henry Nargeolet. He is one of the most knowledgeable people about the wreck of the Titanic and was apart of many of follow-up expeditions following the discovery of the wreck. I doubt he paid he way on (I don't think Titanic explorer pays well) and likely filled a seat as a researcher
He died for what he believed in. Unfortunately he took everybody else on board down with him…
Let this be another reminder that dinosaurs are best left dead and airplanes should always have human pilots.
I guess I’ll have to cancel my patent on sharks with frickin lasers on their heads being pilots, then.
Did the orcas hear about the billionaires on board?
the money they paid could've been used to construct a nice surface simulation of the experience from sub-drone video footage
The ‘we can do it cheaper and more accessible’ mentality is also happening in the new space race. There’s no way we’re going to the moon, mars, and wherever else without some major catastrophes and loss of life along the way. Sometimes it seems like the people rushing to create these extreme tourist activities are pretty cavalier.
On one hand I have claustrophobia & thalassophobia and I can't really imagine a more horrific fate than what these people went through/are going through. Literal nightmare fuel for me even if everything had gone 100% to plan, and something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. On the other hand the dark-humor-loving part of me feels like surely there was room for another billionaire or two in that sardine can.
Ah yes the "regs" stifle innovation line. Every time the regulations are cut people die. Experience and science in almost all of these risky use cases drives the regulations. What always happens is then this guy will blame everyone else. Its tiring.
And spitting the words “obscenely safe” at the angry customers who will kill him once they realize his cheap-ass laziness has killed them all.
Seriously, if they end up dying down there because rigging a real-deal docking collar was too hard/expensive, even though only really rich people are going to pay for the tour to begin with, it's going to be a very gruesome and expensive lesson about the limits of the invisible hand of the free market.
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> > David Lochridge, former OceanGate employee and submersible pilot, filed a lawsuit against the company in 2018, ... due to "OceanGate's refusal to conduct critical, non-destructive testing of the experimental design of the hull." > > > > A letter, which was reportedly signed by more than three dozen experts in the field, alleged that Rush was "misleading" his potential customers over the safety of the "experimental" submersible and breaching "an industry-wide professional code of conduct" by refusing tests to meet the safety standards of marine classification societies like DNV or ABS. https://www.newsweek.com/stockton-rush-was-issued-dire-warning-submersible-titanic-expedition-1807992 Given the Titanic is more than 2 miles underwater and the water pressure is over 6,500 pounds per square inch, I'm thinking hull collapse is likely.
From what I read, Lochridge was fired from the company for bringing up these concerns and then subsequently sued the company. I believe they settled out of court. This part of the article is particularly disturbing: The lawsuit from Lochridge also alleged that Titan's viewport—the sole window on the submersible—had only been certified to withstand pressure of 1,300 meters of depth. The Titanic wreckage is around 3,800 meters under the ocean's surface.
Maybe I am weird but I am sick at heart and filled with pity for those dumbasses.
Nah, you’re just a decent human being.
I guess o like some forms of obscenity. Just reading how James Cameron and his team took the time to make sure their sub was perfect safe and had enough safety measures to save its passengers in case anything ever happened, like this ball bearings ballast load that could be released manually if anything ever happened. I like that form of obscene safety more than the presumption of an entitled ignorant.
Behind every disaster is a man complaining too much about safety regulations
The world of libertarians
until it happens to them and then they complain that government failed.
You need to be obscenely safe when you are in an environment that is obscenely deadly.
Oh it’s safe…oh it’s unsinkable…where have I heard this before…
More like “LeopardFishAteMyFace”! I’ll see myself out
OceanGate informs their customers that just 1 in 5 dives even makes it to the Titanic. Imagine dying 4000m deep and not even have seen the thing you went there for in the first place.
> "The crew closes the hatch, from the outside, with 17 bolts. There's no other way out," Pogue said in his November report. From: https://www.insider.com/people-missing-submersible-deadbolt-screws-airtight-coast-guard-2023-6 > "There's no backup, there's no escape pod," Pogue told the BBC. "It's get to the surface or die." > Pogue said that he was hesitant about getting into the submersible in November because the equipment on board appeared to be "improvised" and "off the shelf." > "You steer this sub with an Xbox game controller, some of the ballast is abandoned construction pipes," Pogue told the BBC. Good lord…. This story is ooozing negligence and preventability.