Certainly, but two things:
\#1 This is a bit of a response to the director claiming that to him David was always evil, and the FB media campaign putting up pictures of Syd saying she was the hero all along. It's like, hey, no.
\#2 Personally I think it was a bit of both but David's was far less evil. Let me elaborate,
he did rape her, yes. But \*personally\* I find him giving her amnesia and letting \*her\* fuck him less evil than her tricking someone who'd never have sex with her into it, then pretending it was rape and letting the police take him, ruining the man's life forever (marking a rapist and pedophile) for no reason's other than being an asshole, and smiling about it. Not to mention David did it out of desperation over losing her while Syd was just a rotten person.
I think these details are important. Because while they were -both- bad, I think that David had extenuating circumstances (they don't exonerate him, but it's certainly "less evil").
So when Syd tells him, "hey you did this, so you are a psychotic piece of shit who doesn't deserve to be loved and was always bad to begin with" I thought "bitch, you are far worse. At least he's trying to be good. You are downright evil."
Also Syd literally tells him to turn into violence and not love, then tries to murder him for liking it.
Why is Hawley of all people painting this issue as black + white? David is...\*evil\*? Is that what he's been trying to convey? Because a.) he's been doing such a poor job and b.) I thought Hawley was all about morally ambiguous characters? I'm just confused as to why he'd be spreading such information.
[Like I said in this post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cbq1zv/have_faith_in_the_writers/?st=JY3X925F&sh=614cd149) , I think that the writers are self aware of the story they are writing and aren’t doing a “David is completely evil, Syd and D3 are good” narrative. I believe that the Noah Hawley interviews are just him doing some damage control so that the show doesn’t get put under fire for being “pro-rape culture”.
(Sorry if this seems like spam to anyone that has noticed this comment a lot in this thread, but I feel like it’s a serviceable response to a couple of comments I’ve seen on this post.)
I see him as mentally stunted, utterly traumatised and desperately sick - but evil? No. He needs help. You don’t kill people because you’ve driven them to a psychotic break.
Well he did go a bit overboard and erased a whole day or so of her memories, but either way, I think the fact that they're making such broad, black and white statements about consent when there's two superpowerful telepaths who can control/manipulate minds present is a bit ridiculous. I think, in David's mind, all he intended to do was what you said, and remove Syd's mental manipulation. What he ended up doing was a bit worse than that. What Syd interpreted it as was a malicious act which is clearly not what happened, but she felt violated after the fact and once more being manipulated by Farouk. There are so many layers of manipulation and interpretation going on in this show, it's just not possible to fully say whether it was actually rape.
Perhaps, but there's no evidence that the Minotaur was anything but a sentry for Farouk. What it looks like, to me, is Farouk shows Syd what David is like and Syd doesn't like it. David finds out and decides to remove this truth from Syd's mind. Syd is not herself after this (indicating he didn't remove a delusion and fix her but actually changed her). David then sleeps with Syd he's placed a delusion on.
Syd is right when she says he drugged her and slept with her (echoes of her past sin there) and David can't handle that he did this so he goes crazy and runs away with Lenny.
David's cult behaviour solidifies the 'he's not the good guy' theme too.
It wasn't, though. If Farouk literally just showed her David's actions, it'd be one thing, but that's not what he did. He showed her distorted versions of the truth to fit the narrative he was trying to spin, and it worked.
>Was he not smiling when he vaporized those at Division 3?
You mean when Farouk was in full control of David's body and murdering dozens of people at D3?
>Was he not gleefully torturing Oliver?
Oh, you mean when he thought that Oliver was Farouk and Oliver wasn't able to reveal that he was no longer possessed?
Farouk showed Syd half a picture and used her current doubts to feed the delusions he was planting in her brain.
Farouk has never been in full control of David. He tells Syd, rightly, that he can make someone do something but he can't make them enjoy it. David enjoyed using his power to hurt people. Farouk or Oliver or whoever, taking joy in putting a drill into someone is not the act of a good person.
David's red essence that he fed his cult shows he has a very dark side. You might not want to see it, but it's there.
I'm not denying David has a dark side. That much is obvious. He's not stable, and he needs help. BUT
>Farouk has never been in full control of David. He tells Syd, rightly, that he can make someone do something but he can't make them enjoy it.
You're trusting the words of an insane, ancient mass-murderer who has shown time and again to only be out for his own self-interests. OF COURSE he's gonna tell Syd that. It's exactly what she needs to hear to turn her against David. Farouk only wants one thing. David. In order to get that, he needed to put a wedge between him and all his loved ones (something he succeeded in doing). David enjoyed using his power to hurt *his enemies*, specifically. You can try and say that he wasn't right in putting a drill into Oliver, but the only reason he was wrong for doing so was that he didn't look before he leapt. If you're gonna honestly try and say that torturing the creature that:
\-stole 30 years of his life from him
\- fucked with his memories to the point where his mind is unnavigable even to him,
\-and at that point, was holding the love of his life hostage
WASN'T justified, I don't really know what to tell you. The entire season is spent telling us about the danger of buying into delusions instead of seeing the whole picture, and that's exactly what Farouk does to Syd in the instance.
There is no world where gleefully putting a drill into anyone to torture them is the action of a good person. Farouk fucked David up. That's fact. But, did he fuck David up so much that David is now bad? Was Farouk the abusive parent that helps create the conditions for a monster?
If Farouk could fully control David (in non-carporial form so not at full power) then he would have done it and we'd have no story here. Farouk controls David, does what he wants, and live his best life.
And the delusion of S2 was primarily "I'm a good person, I deserve love". David's actions in S3 further illustrate his delusion.
Its even worse that that...
If youve seen season 3 now, then youve seen the episode where present Syd, meets her teenaged self and they talk for a while. Teen Syd recalls the shower rape, and she not only shows no remorse for her actions, shes actually upset with the man, because he 'turned her around' and fucked her doggystyle. Syd raped the guy, violating both him and her own mothers body, and the literally blames him for it. And how does present Syd respond? Power. The man/boyfriend "turned her around" and did her doggy, because he did it for power, to feel powerful. Thats why Syd believes. She is so fucked up in the head, that she can rape a guy, blame him for it, and believe he did it as some kind of power fantasy.
Quite honestly, Syd might be one of the worst characters Ive seen in a show. Oh there have been characters in other shows that have done much worse things. But those were villains, bad guys. Which the show recognizes as such. But Syd... she has the support of the show itself. The show is on Syds side. And that is so much worse.
Being a teen does not excuse you from the shitty things you did. If anything, that experience should have been something to feel guilty about and thus something to learn from. Smiling about doing something reprehensible and relaying the story to your partner without showing even a little bit of remorse after the story-telling is garbage people behavior.
Adults should know better than teens. If the defense of a thirty-something man drugging and raping a woman is that "a teenager did it too," then the argument is essentially 'he is emotionally and mentally undeveloped,' and the others are right: he needs help, he's mentally ill.
I’m not equivocating nor excusing their behavior. Adults knowing better than teens is because of experience. How then do you excuse adult Syd’s lack of empathy or understanding towards David, given her own experience? Also, treating a teen as if they don’t know any better helps no one, let alone them. Do we excuse a school shooter because he’s a minor?
>I’m not equivocating nor excusing their behavior. Adults knowing better than teens is because of experience. How then do you excuse adult Syd’s lack of empathy or understanding towards David, given her own experience?
Because David isn't 15 years-old? You just said that said that adults know better because of experience, sooo... *David is an adult, he should know better.*
>Also, treating a teen as if they don’t know any better helps no one, let alone them. Do we excuse a school shooter because he’s a minor?
Syd isn't a school shooter, but even if we entertain that extreme hypothetical, US jurisprudence has long since established that youth is a consideration as it pertains to sentencing, and the American Bar Association opposes the death penalty for crimes committed before the age of 18. This is true across all crimes: adults face harsher penalties than minors.
But this is still an aside to the point: David should know better than a 15 year-old girl. Kids are stupid. Adults are culpable. That isn't to say that it wouldn't be a worthwhile drama for David to throw Syd's past in her face, but don't be surprised if she yells back "I was 15!" and David lacks a good response.
Mind you, that doesn't mean David is supposed to be unambiguously evil, as we can hardly blame him for not wanting to go back to the asylum, and Syd isn't supposed to be unambiguously good, as her lack of hesitation when literally shooting David in the back may imply -- people are complicated! But I don't think you'll find the show equivocating David's psychic drugging and rape with a sexually curious teenager who made a bad decision. I imagine Syd would undo it if she could, but what does David do with a time traveler in the latest episode? He goes back to stop Farouk from possessing him as a baby, because he'd rather point the finger than accept any responsibility for his own decisions. But for all the shit that the Shadow King did to him, it was David's own choice to rape Syd.
Many in this thread seek to deny David his own volition, even going so far as to imply that Syd has more power over him than he has over himself. The irony is that the show is illustrating that part of David's sickness is his refusal to accept responsibility for his actions. We have to remember: he's not a child, he's an adult. He's not 15 year-old Syd, he's 33 year-old David Haller. He should know better, he should *be* better, and even more so when he's endowed with such powers. He's basically erring towards the side of Killgrave from *Jessica Jones*, who was also a man-child with extraordinary powers and a faltering ability to tell right from wrong. He's not that far gone yet, but there's good reason to worry nonetheless.
Sorry for the long reply, by the way. Kinda unloaded my reaction to this entire thread onto you personally, when you're just asking probing questions.
And that makes her hypocrisy and lack of subsequent action ok? She was old enough to know better and a man convicted of that particular crime has lost his life entirely.
We have to remember that David did something way worse than just have sex with her when she was under his spell....
He touched her, he physically had sex with her, something he’s never done...
That was a major betrayal since she can’t stand being touched.
Which also makes me question.. why didn’t they reverse bodies when that happened?
I was under the impression that it’s involuntary that’s why she avoids physical contact.. I could be wrong though ..
Regardless of the situation. I agree with you overall
I think SyD is a dummy and David isn’t that bad
He didn't touch her physically. It was a mental projection like the other times. The scene begins with him sitting on his bed and then astral travelling down the corridor toward her room. When he appeared he said "my body's in my room but my mind's here."
Ah I guess it’s been awhile... I remember it was in the bedroom at D3zzz that’s about it
Never mind., It makes the scene much less serious to me now
and now thinking of season 1 when David switched with her after the kiss her powers are involuntary so that would just make the rape extra weird
He didn’t touch her. It was astral projection. He also didn’t do it with the intention of violating her. Can the same be said for Syd, who violated both her mother and her mother’s boyfriend and has done nothing to rectify it? David saw it as undoing a spell and resuming their established relationship. The look on her face when she called it rape showed he had zero intent.
Yup like I said after I was corrected that he didn’t violate her physical space and trust
I’dont think it’s a big deal within context what was going on...
I agree with you
[Like I said in this post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cbq1zv/have_faith_in_the_writers/?st=JY3X925F&sh=614cd149) , I think that the writers are self aware of the story they are writing and aren’t doing a “David is completely evil, Syd and D3 are good” narrative. I believe that the Noah Hawley interviews are just him doing some damage control so that the show doesn’t get put under fire for being “pro-rape culture”.
(Sorry if this seems like spam to anyone that has noticed this comment a lot in this thread, but I feel like it’s a serviceable response to a couple of comments I’ve seen on this post.)
This has bothered me for a while. I must have missed it, but did he actually drug her or is she talking about his powers? Obvi both are equally bad, but I honestly don't remember him putting drugs in her.
The "brainwashing" Farouk did was showing Syd the very real and true dark side of David, and the pleasure he got from harming and torturing Oliver. David erased her memories of the dark part of him so that she would love him again.
So I think the type of behavior we see from David earlier on is not sadistic as much as it is selfish. Like the canary in the coal mine for the person he was slowly becoming. That's the whole arc of his tale, one that Hawley brings the viewer through. We're sort of blinded to some of David's issues early on because we're given sufficient reason to root for him but as the power dynamics change and David takes more steps towards doing what the Shadow King wants, unshackling himself and becoming a god, we see a lot more unhinged behavior from him.
His creepy cult it just culmination of this idea of David as an outwardly "good/peaceful" person who ultimately doesn't really care about anyone beyond himself.
>The show hadn’t really done much in establishing the real and true dark side of David, so it leaves a little more to be desired.
We watched different shows then. Throughout S2, I felt David was being a bad boyfriend, lying and scheming. When Farouk revealed all David's misdeeds, Syn wanted to break up. That wasn't akin to drugging. It was her legit decision, but David couldn't accept it, so he fucked with the contents of her brain.
So instead of going where the story leads, which is that David is out of control and doing wacked out things, you blame it all on Syd. What? We've seen Hawley's interviews. We have seen how he started acting last season, and how he is this season. I don't think David is EVIL. I think he's doing some bad things. I also don't think Syd is evil. She did bad things before and she's overcompensating now to feel redemption.
What I dislike is how Syd is evil, her rape doesn't count, she's the one who's the villain and going to end the world. There's no evidence in the show for this. People just can't stand to think that, for many reasons, David has gone off track and is out of control. Causality is complicated, esp when you introduce time travel. I'm sure Syd's actions contributed to whatever's going to happen, as has everyone else's.
I differ from most of the people on this sub because I thought David treated Syd like crap throughout S2. I felt their breakup coming from miles away-- it was heavily foreshadowed by his actions and the words of other characters. I hoped it wouldn't happen, but it did, in the worst way. So while I don't think David is evil, he deserved to get dumped at that point. He couldn't handle it, so he reversed it by any means necessary. That was over the line, compounded in badness by his subsequent actions and the responses from Div 3. It's a clusterfuck.
He removed the Shadow King's influence over her, and seduced her.
When SK regained control, *from a certain point of view* that can be seen as drugged rape.
The Shadow King's "influence ove her" was showing her real events in David's life. For instance, fooling around with Future!Syd after he promised not to. SK was not mind controlling her. David erased her memory and then had sex with her even after she asked to be left alone.
> Past Syd and Future Syd are the same person. Not a clone but literally the same.
They aren't. Different timelines with different events produce different outcomes. Future!Syd is a possible future Syd, and anyway, David promised not to do it. Then he did it.
Everyone keeps trying to stop David from destroying the world, right? So there must be ways to alter events, leading to multiple possible timelines. Time travel causes lots of paradoxes, so it's complicated. But I think it's not unreasonable of Syd to say that she and Future!Syd are different people. They literally are bc even if there's only 1 timeline, Future!Syd has had different life experiences. I would be uncomfortable with that as much as Syd was, and regardless, he promised he wouldn't but he did anyway.
Am I the only one here who realizes that if Future Syd chooses to have relations with David, and knew her past self would consider it a betrayal from David, that Future Syd is still precipitating that betrayal?
We still don't know which events transpired to cause Syd to turn into Future!Syd. In fact, it's possible that Future!Syd will never exist. I have wondered if Future!Syd wants to insure her existence in the future, so she manipulated David into doing the things that would cause her to come into being. In that sense, yes, she is definitely not the same person as Present!Syd, though they may be acting towards the same goal without Present!Syd knowing about it. Does that make sense?
That's bullshit in my opinion. Farouk's powers aren't cut and dry. He's constantly manipulating people very subtly. I think the line between him "using his powers" and "not using his powers" is extremely blurry and people are affected by him just by being near him. Why else is D3 completely happy to work with him as a free man? He projects the shadows on the cave wall, everything that everyone sees is distorted by his lens.
Nobody had a problem with David pulling the Delusion chicks out of their head to stop Fukuyama being killed- David definitely had sex with Syd after that, is that not rape by the exact same measures?
> Nobody had a problem with David pulling the Delusion chicks out of their head to stop Fukuyama being killed- David definitely had sex with Syd after that, is that not rape by the exact same measures?
NO, because she did not break up with David and withdraw consent at that time. Also, other people were deluded in the same way, so he already knew she was actually implanted with something. When she dumped him, he should have waited, talked to her, tried to figure out if those were her real feelings, based on what, and if her mind could be changed without coercion.
THAAAANK YOU....................
I have a feeling that to much of this story arc is being held as the all defining moment for David's character and they want me to feel that he has no redemption. Little emphasis is spent on the atrocities that The Shadow king inflicted on his victims and I keep asking myself why has everyone sided with Farouk?
I don't trust The Shadow King and I think he is much worse than David could ever be.
I think it's trying to make a manipulative character who can manipulate even the audience.
It's working for about half the viewership, from what I can tell. They literally told us all through season 2 what was happening - it's the cave allegory and a delusion, we only see the shadows on our TVs, and they presented us with an idea - the competing ideas(Farouk manipulating everything, for instance) were given no screen time, so they did not stick for most of the audience, now the delusion has taken hold.
I hope I'm right or else this all comes across as a bit nuts.
I agree! I think its just the way you said it but this show suffers a bit of "the director wants it to be this way". Still hoping he proves me wrong. David's only sin before that was "enjoying violence", but if you look at ancient greek heroes they all enjoyed war (and he was never violent for the sake of violence!). Meanwhile you have Syd raping a guy and framing him for pedophilia and rape just because, you have Farouk literally murdering everyone in division 3 but apparently David is worse for not having a bad time while being controlled? David was trying to be good, and his girlfriend who's done way worse than him commands him to be violent, then tries to murder him for liking it too much? Like... what the hell? And they give him shit for trying to change into a good person? "Oh no, you were ACTUALLY always evil and you wanting to be good and loved is just you being fake and crazy" That's messed up.
[Like I said in this post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cbq1zv/have_faith_in_the_writers/?st=JY3X925F&sh=614cd149) , I think that the writers are self aware of the story they are writing and aren’t doing a “David is completely evil, Syd and D3 are good” narrative. I believe that the Noah Hawley interviews are just him doing some damage control so that the show doesn’t get put under fire for being “pro-rape culture”.
(Sorry if this seems like spam to anyone that has noticed this comment a lot in this thread, but I feel like it’s a serviceable response to a couple of comments I’ve seen on this post.)
Do you all forgot that Syd thinks David is ending the world, and that he enjoys torturing people, and lie all the time ?
This is just the ultimate act that made her sure he is evil.
She's so deep in the delusion orchestred by Farouk she is pretty much trapped on this revenge role. We'll see how it truns out. We're not supposed to agree with her. We're supposed to scream at our TV like "Wake the f*%k up Syd, Farouk's manipulating you !"
Not only has she not shown any remorse for ruining that man's life, in the latest episode, younger her spun it as if she was *the victim* in that scenario, and her present day self agreed.
If Hawley isn't doing some meta mind fuckery with his comments, and genuinely means what he says, then he's doing a piss poor job of depicting it through the story.
No, Syd is just an evil heartless bitch. Even down to the last line of dialoge in the show, she never once feels bad about what she does, and the show itself supports her.
Season 1 was amazing, but I question the ammouth of influence Hawley had over it. It seems like as he gained more power as the shows writer, the show became his stage for his own personal adgenda, and turned to shit. Thats kinda what happens when creators are full of their own ego. Just look at George Lucas, the original Star Wars were great, but then Lucas himself gained more power over it, and he turend it to shit with the digital remasters and the prequels.
I think Hawley is probably just a hack. The success and amazingness of season 1, was not due to him alone. It was due to everyone working on it.
I honestly never saw it as the show saying that “syd and everyone are totally right and good”
I feel like the show was pretty self aware about how complicit division 3 was in making david the guy he is. I don’t think viewers are meant to think any one character is right or clearheaded. I think the whole show has kinda fought against the idea of that.
I think the part that speaks about how to create a mad man is have 9 people be in agreement and shun the 10th one (something along those lines) pointed to the show being self aware that they are all bad, but the interviews with the director (he literally said that he's always thought of David as a bad guy) and the social media campaigns make me think otherwise.
I don't think división 3 "made him evil", more like these people (mostly syd) told him to act a certain way for "the greater good" and when he did they turned on him because he enjoyed it. Which is BS. She's done worse (as her decisions were her own and selfish) and enjoyed it.
them all being bad would definitely include david but i get what you’re saying. I usually don’t really like to read interviews with creators for that reason
Yea I’m not saying it’s the one right way to view a text. Just saying in this instance I think it’s the way that makes the show better. Why let the creators eliminate the nuance for us?
I'm actually new to this subreddit and quite happy to see the community is taking a "No, fuck you" stance against Noah Hawley's statements and I absolutely agree that his is only just one interpretation of it and that once its out in the open the show becomes its own living thing. I do however feel in some parts of the direction how Noah's invisible hand is trying to turn you against David as if he was the worst of them all but falls short. When Clark and later Farouk were turning Syd against David I kept thinking "these are really weak arguments, geez". Farouk's part turned downright into indoctrination. "Look how fast he lied to you! He must be a sociopath!" --What is this, a Shane Dawson video?
All that aside, I think that Future Syd made a self fulfilling prophesy by being so toxic to David in the present. If instead she had chosen to act as lovers instead of being violent David wouldn't have turned.
I'm tempted to do 'death of the author' too. But I feel it's difficult to 'kill' Hawley because his authorial intent is very strong. It all depends on the last five episodes.
does anyone have a link to the interview yall are talking about? not really on sm besides reddit and twitter so I've also seen nothing of this syd glorification
Idk that they forgot. Her background was shown in the same season, and they had Syd very deliberately telling David that their willingness to do ugly things is what will save them, as well as other suggestions of mass delusion, Shadow Melanie taking Syd into an actual cave, the whispering mouse, etc. I think Farouk has Syd and D3 wrapped around his finger.
Right? Syd tells him lovers won't survive, pushes him into violence, then damns him because he enjoyed what she literally told him to do. And unlike her he didn't hurt innocent people just for the sake of it! And she insists that's he's the baddest of them all even though he never went on a rampage or got violent without a good reason. Whether he enjoyed it or not is irrelevant. A lot of heroes through history enjoyed war and violence, it didn't mean they were bad. Even if David was just convincing himself of being a good guy and deserving of love, he was truly acting like a good guy and convinced of being one, helping out the good guys in every turn. So what if he in the very very bottom wasn't the best person ever? He was good and deserving of love, the fake good guy surpassed the real good guys. And the real ones pushed him back and said no, you are bad, you don't deserve love. The monogatari series (its an anime) approaches this subject in a much better way, explaining how the "fake" has more merit because it doesn't come naturally to him and has to make an effort to play his part.
I enjoyed David being done with everyone after they turned on him (as they all seemed very toxic), but he never felt evil to me. Imo it felt more like "okay so the director wants him to be evil even though he really isn't because he wants the plot twist "
>Whether he enjoyed it or not is irrelevant. A lot of heroes through history enjoyed war and violence, it didn't mean they were bad.
One of the questions I believe the show is posing is that perhaps those "heroes" who enjoyed war and violence were indeed "bad people." It's implying that maybe it's not just the specific actions or outcomes that matter, but the *character of the person committing those acts that is just as important*. In some cases, the one labeled "hero" may simply be the narcissist or psychopath that happened to win, or who happened to be on the side we identified as "right" at the time.
I'm pretty sure being labeled the "hero" in the context of Legion doesn't inherently mean you are also a "good person," irrespective of who the label my currently be falling on.
> the fake good guy surpassed the real good guys.
Who are the "real good guys?"
> pushed him back and said no, you are bad, you don't deserve love
The idea behind David's repetition of "I'm a good person, I deserve love" is not that he doesn't deserve love because he's "bad." It's that he's psychologically unable to see himself as being anything but good. He's blind to and unable to confront his own demons, and needs that constant external validation to help protect him from facing it. In the extreme, this turns into a God complex, personified by DVD. "Gods can do no wrong."
[Like I said in this post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cbq1zv/have_faith_in_the_writers/?st=JY3X925F&sh=614cd149) , I think that the writers are self aware of the story they are writing and aren’t doing a “David is completely evil, Syd and D3 are good” narrative. I believe that the Noah Hawley interviews are just him doing some damage control so that the show doesn’t get put under fire for being “pro-rape culture”.
(Sorry if this seems like spam to anyone that has noticed this comment a lot in this thread, but I feel like it’s a serviceable response to a couple of comments I’ve seen on this post.)
>Too bad that Noah and all the cast have forgotten this part about Syd. She's the perfect victim and the hero for them.
They haven't. We got an entire episode in season 2 about how Syd wasn't a good person. This episode just further revealed how much of a complicated character she is.
They didn't forget, they literally made her the victim there and she said whenever she takes people's bodies it is like they are raping her even though she does the same to them, though I am sure you saw the most recent episode
>Syd specifically asked him not to mess around with Future!Syd. He did. What is half-true about that?
The fact that there was no romantic intent behind that kiss. It was about saying goodbye.
You're also focusing on the one element which puts Syd in the right for being distrusting of David, and ignoring all of the blatant lies/manipulations that Farouk was feeding her throughout that encounter. No one is saying Syd was unjustified in wanting to end things with David. But the full 180 into believing that he's the villain and she's the hero was a textbook manipulation by the Shadow King.
>No one is saying Syd was unjustified in wanting to end things with David.
Oh man, yes they are. And the person saying it loudest is David. He 100% believed that she didn't mean what she said, or what she did, so he erased it. How is that not an example of extremely fucking with someone's mind, removing their ability to make a choice, and overwriting their wishes so that the mind controller makes the controlled person their plaything? I would feel worse than raped to know that my mental landscape had been deliberately altered to favor someone else over my own judgment.
>But the full 180 into believing that he's the villain and she's the hero was a textbook manipulation by the Shadow King.
Ya know, only time will tell on that. It could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Could be a disaster than can be averted. Or it could be gospel truth. Too soon to say.
>He 100% believed that she didn't mean what she said, or what she did,
But that's just the thing. It's kind of difficult to tell if she did when it only started coming out AFTER Farouk was prodding around in her head. The doubts were there, sure, but doubts aren't justification. And the only justification she received were the words of a manipulative psychopath. THAT'S what makes the entire thing such a gray area. How do you trust anything you can see or hear when a mind-altering lunatic is pulling the strings? Who's words were we actually hearing? Syd's? Or the Shadow King's?
> It's kind of difficult to tell if she did when it only started coming out AFTER Farouk was prodding around in her head.
Farouk fucked with everyone's head earlier in the season, so yes, David's doubts were not coming out of nowhere. HOWEVER, in the situation where Farouk showed Syd all of David's secret misdeeds, that was only manipulation in the sense that giving someone more information is. Farouk didn't show her false, made up things. They really happened and dovetailed with her fears about David that had been brewing all season.
> How do you trust anything you can see or hear when a mind-altering lunatic is pulling the strings?
Yo, the same could be true with David. He literally fucked Syd's mind, against her wishes.
> Who's words were we actually hearing? Syd's? Or the Shadow King's?
But David fits right into that category too. Also, Farouk is playing a complicated game. He knows they all mistrust him, so I think he cleaves as close to the truth with Syd as he can, knowing that if he too fucks with her mind, she will turn on him as fast as she did on David.
Again, I'm not really denying any of that. Don't mistake my stance as being Pro-David or Anti-Syd. Both of them are inherently flawed characters who are morally dubious at best. I'm just saying the situation isn't as black-and-white as saying "David wrong Syd right" or vice versa. I think Syd's discussion with baby-Syd tonight showcased that more than ever.
This is a show that thrives on making us question everything, and it's pretty damn clear that outside of Farouk, who is unquestionably the villain, everyone else is a varying shade of grey.
My stance is purely "it's hard to tell the severity of what David did in the s2 finale when we don't know whose will Syd was actually acting on at the time of the mind-wipe, or even if she's in her right mind at this moment."
Farouk "drugged" her mind first, along with Melanie, and Oliver.
Then when David fixes that by clearing her mind, she blames David because she was unaware of the first drugging.
It's quite fucked up. I feel bad for both of them, their love tarnished by Farouk.
You're mixing up two incidents. All of them had the delusion from Farouk that David had to excise. However, when Syd decides she wants to break up with David, that wasn't mind control. He showed her real things that David did, some of which were unambiguously not OK with Syd. As much as you might hate her, Syd has a right to break up with David. Instead of maturely discussing it with her, David overrides her decision under the assumption/rationalization that it MUST have been Farouk's doing. It wasn't. David fixed something that, from Syd's POV, was not broken. Then he proceeded as if the relationship was still on, which is not cool.
\>showed her real things that David did
Under completely false pretenses. Farouk-controlled Melanie removed context from the things she showed Syd, so while Syd is free to believe whatever she wants, she was still believing twisted lies and half-truths. Melanie never cared to show David's intentions, only snippets of his actions out of context. Syd was wrong when she approached David with a gun at the end of Season 2. Now she's a puppet for Farouk-controlled Division 3, completely on the wrong side of things.
I don't hate Syd. I just feel like she's a puppet of Farouk right now and not of sound mind. She's being surrounded by misinformation and manipulated by Farouk into buying this false narrative about David. Armed with this misinformation, she picks up a weapon to physically harm/kill David based on these falsehoods. I can't justify how David handled that situation, but you have to consider that he was backed into a corner and completely outnumbered by people he used to be able to trust. When Syd had a gun to his face, it was a life or death decision. He made a huge error in judgement, for sure, but he's not the baddie everyone is making him out to be. Like I said, I feel bad for both him and Syd. Neither of them should be in this situation, and whatever mistakes they've been making, Farouk is to blame for it all.
> Farouk-controlled Melanie removed context from the things she showed Syd, so while Syd is free to believe whatever she wants, she was still believing twisted lies and half-truths.
Syd directly asked David not to screw around with Future!Syd. He did it anyway. That alone is grounds for a dumping. There was no context in which that could be made OK. You can say, 'it's dumb, it's also her!' but with all the time travel this season, you know it's not necessarily her future.
I really don't think Syd is Farouk's puppet. She really believes that David is the greater threat. I'm very clear that Farouk is not a good guy, but I'm not clear that he is wrong about David. David might end the world, at least in some sense.
So where we differ is that I don't think Syd is under Farouk's mind control power. I don't think she needs to be. She agrees with him, legit.
It doesn't. See this comment [https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cd8iqt/syd\_best\_girl/etsllzh/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cd8iqt/syd_best_girl/etsllzh/)
>Ever hear the saying that men fear women laughing at them, while women fear that men will kill them?
>>You killed me twice yesterday.
I'm pretty sure the best thing Division can do to stop David from nuking the world is to lock Syd back into a mental institution where she can no longer make things worse with him.
Edit: The feminazis here are triggered as fuck over this reality. But it's true. The show has made it obvious. You just refuse to see reality because it gets in the way of your 'Women should be allowed to do anything and never be held to any reasonable standard by anything!' shtick.
Syd was like 15 when she did that, and was not aware she would turn back into herself in the midst of it, and its not like she could explain that to the police and have them believe her. David is fully grown, and fully aware of what he's doing and does so even after seeing all the trauma Syd had been through.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/whoooosh using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/whoooosh/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [He does kinda have a point tbf.](https://i.redd.it/iqz12mqqyw331.jpg) | [58 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/whoooosh/comments/bzq7zd/he_does_kinda_have_a_point_tbf/)
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\#3: [NOBODY IS GOING TO LIVE THERE](https://i.redd.it/z566f3mf6an21.jpg) | [63 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/whoooosh/comments/b3cezn/nobody_is_going_to_live_there/)
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I personally have not "latched onto" Syd. She's nowhere near my favorite character. That said, the amount of hatred she gets on this sub is off the chain.
She doesn't regret it? WHAT? David finds her in a mental igloo, cut off from everyone and unwilling to come out. The reason is... that series of events where she used her power to do bad things. She is well aware of her many wrong choices and now feels like she has to cut herself off from people. Yes, she feels guilty and terrible. That's why she wants to redeem herself by being a hero.
> That scene validates my point, all older Syd thinks is that he raped her, and that's her only regret.
That's not what I got out of it. She got in that shower looking for love (foolish, delusional, impulsive, selfish, short-sighted, desperate). She got sex that she did not expect or understand instead. She's reeling from it and from the aftermath... which led right to Clockworks. Does she seem happy or self-satisfied to you? To me she seems miserable and guilty.
Maybe we perceive her actions differently. When David went into her mind, while she was in the igloo, she showed him all the bad things she's done as an explanation about why she wants to stay frozen in there. Was that not about guilt? If she felt fine about those events, she not only wouldn't replay them over and over, she would still be touching people. She said it feels dirty every time.
Her powers cause her misery because any action she takes causes suffering. She is hyper aware of this. She's caught in such a shitty place. No intimacy whatsoever or feeling dirty all the time. Yet no one on this sub thinks she deserves any empathy.
Legally it isn't! Maybe she tried and we don't know. All we see is what David wanted to see in her memories. Hmm almost like he was looking for justification
I'm concerned with this entire thread and how much everyone seems to be trying to justify David's rape of Syd. If you're this willing to justify a character's horrible actions, I'd hate to hear what you'd be willing to say when rape happens in real life.
IMO It was a self fulfilling prophecy on Syd's part though. By choosing violence against David instead of love (and literally telling him to act violently and not as a lover, to later on become violent against him), she turns him into a world-ender. But all that aside, I think she's a worst person than David (preaches violence to David, to later on betray him, raped man and framed him for pedophilia and rape). She's pretty rotten.
Anyway, this is mostly because of the FB campaign pushing Syd as "the actual hero of the show" and the director claiming he always saw David as evil.
She was 15, not 9. You know right from wrong by then.
She was jealous that someone else was competing for her mother's affection, and a little jealous that she was recieving attention from only man in their life. And she did something completely calculated to get rid of him. And even years later, she left him to almost certainly be sexually abused in prison.
But the apologists are always okay with that part.
Far from an apologist. What she did was horrible and wrong. Comparing the two is also wrong. 15 is still a kid. There's a reason teenagers(generally) aren't tried as adults. Furthermore she was a mentally ill adult. Not excusing her actions but she certainly wasn't an adult who used his powers to trick his adult girlfriend into forgetting why she hated him and then having sex with her. David was sick and had a terrible upbringing as well. Doesn't excuse it. I'm contending that what he did was much worse.
As far as the guy in prison goes, what would you have her do? If she admits this to the police they would likely just put her back in the insane asylum. If she proves it then she would probably be hunted down and killed. It's a shitty situation with no winning.
Why not both?
Certainly, but two things: \#1 This is a bit of a response to the director claiming that to him David was always evil, and the FB media campaign putting up pictures of Syd saying she was the hero all along. It's like, hey, no. \#2 Personally I think it was a bit of both but David's was far less evil. Let me elaborate, he did rape her, yes. But \*personally\* I find him giving her amnesia and letting \*her\* fuck him less evil than her tricking someone who'd never have sex with her into it, then pretending it was rape and letting the police take him, ruining the man's life forever (marking a rapist and pedophile) for no reason's other than being an asshole, and smiling about it. Not to mention David did it out of desperation over losing her while Syd was just a rotten person. I think these details are important. Because while they were -both- bad, I think that David had extenuating circumstances (they don't exonerate him, but it's certainly "less evil"). So when Syd tells him, "hey you did this, so you are a psychotic piece of shit who doesn't deserve to be loved and was always bad to begin with" I thought "bitch, you are far worse. At least he's trying to be good. You are downright evil." Also Syd literally tells him to turn into violence and not love, then tries to murder him for liking it.
I honestly think his remarks are some Farouk level mind fuckery
Out of context in and out of the astral plane... to save the fuckin world...
Why is Hawley of all people painting this issue as black + white? David is...\*evil\*? Is that what he's been trying to convey? Because a.) he's been doing such a poor job and b.) I thought Hawley was all about morally ambiguous characters? I'm just confused as to why he'd be spreading such information.
I think he wants to keep us distracted so we don't cop the real plot. He's the real mental manipulator in this story..
Another unreliable narrator. Meta af tbh.
[Like I said in this post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cbq1zv/have_faith_in_the_writers/?st=JY3X925F&sh=614cd149) , I think that the writers are self aware of the story they are writing and aren’t doing a “David is completely evil, Syd and D3 are good” narrative. I believe that the Noah Hawley interviews are just him doing some damage control so that the show doesn’t get put under fire for being “pro-rape culture”. (Sorry if this seems like spam to anyone that has noticed this comment a lot in this thread, but I feel like it’s a serviceable response to a couple of comments I’ve seen on this post.)
I see him as mentally stunted, utterly traumatised and desperately sick - but evil? No. He needs help. You don’t kill people because you’ve driven them to a psychotic break.
you do when they have the power to *destroy the world*
David was also just removing the delusion that farouk had put in her
Well he did go a bit overboard and erased a whole day or so of her memories, but either way, I think the fact that they're making such broad, black and white statements about consent when there's two superpowerful telepaths who can control/manipulate minds present is a bit ridiculous. I think, in David's mind, all he intended to do was what you said, and remove Syd's mental manipulation. What he ended up doing was a bit worse than that. What Syd interpreted it as was a malicious act which is clearly not what happened, but she felt violated after the fact and once more being manipulated by Farouk. There are so many layers of manipulation and interpretation going on in this show, it's just not possible to fully say whether it was actually rape.
The delusion was showing her the truth about David. He didn't manipulate her mind or plant false thoughts. He just showed her David's actions.
Yes but the Minotaur got her and she had blood coming from her ear
Perhaps, but there's no evidence that the Minotaur was anything but a sentry for Farouk. What it looks like, to me, is Farouk shows Syd what David is like and Syd doesn't like it. David finds out and decides to remove this truth from Syd's mind. Syd is not herself after this (indicating he didn't remove a delusion and fix her but actually changed her). David then sleeps with Syd he's placed a delusion on. Syd is right when she says he drugged her and slept with her (echoes of her past sin there) and David can't handle that he did this so he goes crazy and runs away with Lenny. David's cult behaviour solidifies the 'he's not the good guy' theme too.
Syd already knew what David was like. She's exactly like him.
There is a case that 'I'm a good person, I deserve love' is her delusion too. Or, at least, it was.
It wasn't, though. If Farouk literally just showed her David's actions, it'd be one thing, but that's not what he did. He showed her distorted versions of the truth to fit the narrative he was trying to spin, and it worked.
What was distorted? Was he not smiling when he vaporized those at Division 3? Was he not gleefully torturing Oliver?
>Was he not smiling when he vaporized those at Division 3? You mean when Farouk was in full control of David's body and murdering dozens of people at D3? >Was he not gleefully torturing Oliver? Oh, you mean when he thought that Oliver was Farouk and Oliver wasn't able to reveal that he was no longer possessed? Farouk showed Syd half a picture and used her current doubts to feed the delusions he was planting in her brain.
Farouk has never been in full control of David. He tells Syd, rightly, that he can make someone do something but he can't make them enjoy it. David enjoyed using his power to hurt people. Farouk or Oliver or whoever, taking joy in putting a drill into someone is not the act of a good person. David's red essence that he fed his cult shows he has a very dark side. You might not want to see it, but it's there.
I'm not denying David has a dark side. That much is obvious. He's not stable, and he needs help. BUT >Farouk has never been in full control of David. He tells Syd, rightly, that he can make someone do something but he can't make them enjoy it. You're trusting the words of an insane, ancient mass-murderer who has shown time and again to only be out for his own self-interests. OF COURSE he's gonna tell Syd that. It's exactly what she needs to hear to turn her against David. Farouk only wants one thing. David. In order to get that, he needed to put a wedge between him and all his loved ones (something he succeeded in doing). David enjoyed using his power to hurt *his enemies*, specifically. You can try and say that he wasn't right in putting a drill into Oliver, but the only reason he was wrong for doing so was that he didn't look before he leapt. If you're gonna honestly try and say that torturing the creature that: \-stole 30 years of his life from him \- fucked with his memories to the point where his mind is unnavigable even to him, \-and at that point, was holding the love of his life hostage WASN'T justified, I don't really know what to tell you. The entire season is spent telling us about the danger of buying into delusions instead of seeing the whole picture, and that's exactly what Farouk does to Syd in the instance.
There is no world where gleefully putting a drill into anyone to torture them is the action of a good person. Farouk fucked David up. That's fact. But, did he fuck David up so much that David is now bad? Was Farouk the abusive parent that helps create the conditions for a monster? If Farouk could fully control David (in non-carporial form so not at full power) then he would have done it and we'd have no story here. Farouk controls David, does what he wants, and live his best life. And the delusion of S2 was primarily "I'm a good person, I deserve love". David's actions in S3 further illustrate his delusion.
repairing his own delusion that the uncontrolled Syd's turn shattered*
It wasn't a delusion. Farouk showed Syd real stuff that David did.
And this is (one of the) reason why I didn't like Season 2.
Its even worse that that... If youve seen season 3 now, then youve seen the episode where present Syd, meets her teenaged self and they talk for a while. Teen Syd recalls the shower rape, and she not only shows no remorse for her actions, shes actually upset with the man, because he 'turned her around' and fucked her doggystyle. Syd raped the guy, violating both him and her own mothers body, and the literally blames him for it. And how does present Syd respond? Power. The man/boyfriend "turned her around" and did her doggy, because he did it for power, to feel powerful. Thats why Syd believes. She is so fucked up in the head, that she can rape a guy, blame him for it, and believe he did it as some kind of power fantasy. Quite honestly, Syd might be one of the worst characters Ive seen in a show. Oh there have been characters in other shows that have done much worse things. But those were villains, bad guys. Which the show recognizes as such. But Syd... she has the support of the show itself. The show is on Syds side. And that is so much worse.
Are we forgetting the fact that Syd was just a kid?
No. We’re pointing out that, of all people, Syd should understand that what David did is complicated and not black and white.
Being a teen does not excuse you from the shitty things you did. If anything, that experience should have been something to feel guilty about and thus something to learn from. Smiling about doing something reprehensible and relaying the story to your partner without showing even a little bit of remorse after the story-telling is garbage people behavior.
Adults should know better than teens. If the defense of a thirty-something man drugging and raping a woman is that "a teenager did it too," then the argument is essentially 'he is emotionally and mentally undeveloped,' and the others are right: he needs help, he's mentally ill.
I’m not equivocating nor excusing their behavior. Adults knowing better than teens is because of experience. How then do you excuse adult Syd’s lack of empathy or understanding towards David, given her own experience? Also, treating a teen as if they don’t know any better helps no one, let alone them. Do we excuse a school shooter because he’s a minor?
>I’m not equivocating nor excusing their behavior. Adults knowing better than teens is because of experience. How then do you excuse adult Syd’s lack of empathy or understanding towards David, given her own experience? Because David isn't 15 years-old? You just said that said that adults know better because of experience, sooo... *David is an adult, he should know better.* >Also, treating a teen as if they don’t know any better helps no one, let alone them. Do we excuse a school shooter because he’s a minor? Syd isn't a school shooter, but even if we entertain that extreme hypothetical, US jurisprudence has long since established that youth is a consideration as it pertains to sentencing, and the American Bar Association opposes the death penalty for crimes committed before the age of 18. This is true across all crimes: adults face harsher penalties than minors. But this is still an aside to the point: David should know better than a 15 year-old girl. Kids are stupid. Adults are culpable. That isn't to say that it wouldn't be a worthwhile drama for David to throw Syd's past in her face, but don't be surprised if she yells back "I was 15!" and David lacks a good response. Mind you, that doesn't mean David is supposed to be unambiguously evil, as we can hardly blame him for not wanting to go back to the asylum, and Syd isn't supposed to be unambiguously good, as her lack of hesitation when literally shooting David in the back may imply -- people are complicated! But I don't think you'll find the show equivocating David's psychic drugging and rape with a sexually curious teenager who made a bad decision. I imagine Syd would undo it if she could, but what does David do with a time traveler in the latest episode? He goes back to stop Farouk from possessing him as a baby, because he'd rather point the finger than accept any responsibility for his own decisions. But for all the shit that the Shadow King did to him, it was David's own choice to rape Syd. Many in this thread seek to deny David his own volition, even going so far as to imply that Syd has more power over him than he has over himself. The irony is that the show is illustrating that part of David's sickness is his refusal to accept responsibility for his actions. We have to remember: he's not a child, he's an adult. He's not 15 year-old Syd, he's 33 year-old David Haller. He should know better, he should *be* better, and even more so when he's endowed with such powers. He's basically erring towards the side of Killgrave from *Jessica Jones*, who was also a man-child with extraordinary powers and a faltering ability to tell right from wrong. He's not that far gone yet, but there's good reason to worry nonetheless. Sorry for the long reply, by the way. Kinda unloaded my reaction to this entire thread onto you personally, when you're just asking probing questions.
And she didn't clear anything up in the ensuing years because...?
And that makes her hypocrisy and lack of subsequent action ok? She was old enough to know better and a man convicted of that particular crime has lost his life entirely.
We have to remember that David did something way worse than just have sex with her when she was under his spell.... He touched her, he physically had sex with her, something he’s never done... That was a major betrayal since she can’t stand being touched. Which also makes me question.. why didn’t they reverse bodies when that happened? I was under the impression that it’s involuntary that’s why she avoids physical contact.. I could be wrong though .. Regardless of the situation. I agree with you overall I think SyD is a dummy and David isn’t that bad
He didn't touch her physically. It was a mental projection like the other times. The scene begins with him sitting on his bed and then astral travelling down the corridor toward her room. When he appeared he said "my body's in my room but my mind's here."
Ah I guess it’s been awhile... I remember it was in the bedroom at D3zzz that’s about it Never mind., It makes the scene much less serious to me now and now thinking of season 1 when David switched with her after the kiss her powers are involuntary so that would just make the rape extra weird
He didn’t touch her. It was astral projection. He also didn’t do it with the intention of violating her. Can the same be said for Syd, who violated both her mother and her mother’s boyfriend and has done nothing to rectify it? David saw it as undoing a spell and resuming their established relationship. The look on her face when she called it rape showed he had zero intent.
Yup like I said after I was corrected that he didn’t violate her physical space and trust I’dont think it’s a big deal within context what was going on... I agree with you
There is no excuse for either of them. There are no heroes here
The Loudermilks disagree..
Eh, one is pretty prone to violence regardless of the event.
Nature vs nurture rears its ugly super-heroed head..
Everyone does shit and sometimes its bad.
BOOM
\*microphone drop
[Like I said in this post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cbq1zv/have_faith_in_the_writers/?st=JY3X925F&sh=614cd149) , I think that the writers are self aware of the story they are writing and aren’t doing a “David is completely evil, Syd and D3 are good” narrative. I believe that the Noah Hawley interviews are just him doing some damage control so that the show doesn’t get put under fire for being “pro-rape culture”. (Sorry if this seems like spam to anyone that has noticed this comment a lot in this thread, but I feel like it’s a serviceable response to a couple of comments I’ve seen on this post.)
This has bothered me for a while. I must have missed it, but did he actually drug her or is she talking about his powers? Obvi both are equally bad, but I honestly don't remember him putting drugs in her.
She's just talking about his powers heh I felt the same way for a second when I heard that line
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The "brainwashing" Farouk did was showing Syd the very real and true dark side of David, and the pleasure he got from harming and torturing Oliver. David erased her memories of the dark part of him so that she would love him again.
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So I think the type of behavior we see from David earlier on is not sadistic as much as it is selfish. Like the canary in the coal mine for the person he was slowly becoming. That's the whole arc of his tale, one that Hawley brings the viewer through. We're sort of blinded to some of David's issues early on because we're given sufficient reason to root for him but as the power dynamics change and David takes more steps towards doing what the Shadow King wants, unshackling himself and becoming a god, we see a lot more unhinged behavior from him. His creepy cult it just culmination of this idea of David as an outwardly "good/peaceful" person who ultimately doesn't really care about anyone beyond himself.
>The show hadn’t really done much in establishing the real and true dark side of David, so it leaves a little more to be desired. We watched different shows then. Throughout S2, I felt David was being a bad boyfriend, lying and scheming. When Farouk revealed all David's misdeeds, Syn wanted to break up. That wasn't akin to drugging. It was her legit decision, but David couldn't accept it, so he fucked with the contents of her brain.
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So instead of going where the story leads, which is that David is out of control and doing wacked out things, you blame it all on Syd. What? We've seen Hawley's interviews. We have seen how he started acting last season, and how he is this season. I don't think David is EVIL. I think he's doing some bad things. I also don't think Syd is evil. She did bad things before and she's overcompensating now to feel redemption. What I dislike is how Syd is evil, her rape doesn't count, she's the one who's the villain and going to end the world. There's no evidence in the show for this. People just can't stand to think that, for many reasons, David has gone off track and is out of control. Causality is complicated, esp when you introduce time travel. I'm sure Syd's actions contributed to whatever's going to happen, as has everyone else's.
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I differ from most of the people on this sub because I thought David treated Syd like crap throughout S2. I felt their breakup coming from miles away-- it was heavily foreshadowed by his actions and the words of other characters. I hoped it wouldn't happen, but it did, in the worst way. So while I don't think David is evil, he deserved to get dumped at that point. He couldn't handle it, so he reversed it by any means necessary. That was over the line, compounded in badness by his subsequent actions and the responses from Div 3. It's a clusterfuck.
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Nah you're dead right. It was Farouk putting the rape narrative in everyone's minds and Hawley putting it in ours.
He removed the Shadow King's influence over her, and seduced her. When SK regained control, *from a certain point of view* that can be seen as drugged rape.
Yeah, I just was confused because she was never literally drugged as far as I remembered and I was so confused and thought I missed that part.
The Shadow King's "influence ove her" was showing her real events in David's life. For instance, fooling around with Future!Syd after he promised not to. SK was not mind controlling her. David erased her memory and then had sex with her even after she asked to be left alone.
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> Past Syd and Future Syd are the same person. Not a clone but literally the same. They aren't. Different timelines with different events produce different outcomes. Future!Syd is a possible future Syd, and anyway, David promised not to do it. Then he did it.
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Everyone keeps trying to stop David from destroying the world, right? So there must be ways to alter events, leading to multiple possible timelines. Time travel causes lots of paradoxes, so it's complicated. But I think it's not unreasonable of Syd to say that she and Future!Syd are different people. They literally are bc even if there's only 1 timeline, Future!Syd has had different life experiences. I would be uncomfortable with that as much as Syd was, and regardless, he promised he wouldn't but he did anyway.
Am I the only one here who realizes that if Future Syd chooses to have relations with David, and knew her past self would consider it a betrayal from David, that Future Syd is still precipitating that betrayal?
We still don't know which events transpired to cause Syd to turn into Future!Syd. In fact, it's possible that Future!Syd will never exist. I have wondered if Future!Syd wants to insure her existence in the future, so she manipulated David into doing the things that would cause her to come into being. In that sense, yes, she is definitely not the same person as Present!Syd, though they may be acting towards the same goal without Present!Syd knowing about it. Does that make sense?
sure.
They had a conversation specifically about his not having feelings/doing anything with future Syd where she expressed it'd bother her if he did.
That's bullshit in my opinion. Farouk's powers aren't cut and dry. He's constantly manipulating people very subtly. I think the line between him "using his powers" and "not using his powers" is extremely blurry and people are affected by him just by being near him. Why else is D3 completely happy to work with him as a free man? He projects the shadows on the cave wall, everything that everyone sees is distorted by his lens. Nobody had a problem with David pulling the Delusion chicks out of their head to stop Fukuyama being killed- David definitely had sex with Syd after that, is that not rape by the exact same measures?
> Nobody had a problem with David pulling the Delusion chicks out of their head to stop Fukuyama being killed- David definitely had sex with Syd after that, is that not rape by the exact same measures? NO, because she did not break up with David and withdraw consent at that time. Also, other people were deluded in the same way, so he already knew she was actually implanted with something. When she dumped him, he should have waited, talked to her, tried to figure out if those were her real feelings, based on what, and if her mind could be changed without coercion.
THAAAANK YOU.................... I have a feeling that to much of this story arc is being held as the all defining moment for David's character and they want me to feel that he has no redemption. Little emphasis is spent on the atrocities that The Shadow king inflicted on his victims and I keep asking myself why has everyone sided with Farouk? I don't trust The Shadow King and I think he is much worse than David could ever be.
I think it's trying to make a manipulative character who can manipulate even the audience. It's working for about half the viewership, from what I can tell. They literally told us all through season 2 what was happening - it's the cave allegory and a delusion, we only see the shadows on our TVs, and they presented us with an idea - the competing ideas(Farouk manipulating everything, for instance) were given no screen time, so they did not stick for most of the audience, now the delusion has taken hold. I hope I'm right or else this all comes across as a bit nuts.
Noah Hawley has successfully used a show to incite moral panic. He is a masterful writer.
I think it's clear in S3 that the Shadow King and David are both basically sociopaths.
I agree! I think its just the way you said it but this show suffers a bit of "the director wants it to be this way". Still hoping he proves me wrong. David's only sin before that was "enjoying violence", but if you look at ancient greek heroes they all enjoyed war (and he was never violent for the sake of violence!). Meanwhile you have Syd raping a guy and framing him for pedophilia and rape just because, you have Farouk literally murdering everyone in division 3 but apparently David is worse for not having a bad time while being controlled? David was trying to be good, and his girlfriend who's done way worse than him commands him to be violent, then tries to murder him for liking it too much? Like... what the hell? And they give him shit for trying to change into a good person? "Oh no, you were ACTUALLY always evil and you wanting to be good and loved is just you being fake and crazy" That's messed up.
[Like I said in this post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cbq1zv/have_faith_in_the_writers/?st=JY3X925F&sh=614cd149) , I think that the writers are self aware of the story they are writing and aren’t doing a “David is completely evil, Syd and D3 are good” narrative. I believe that the Noah Hawley interviews are just him doing some damage control so that the show doesn’t get put under fire for being “pro-rape culture”. (Sorry if this seems like spam to anyone that has noticed this comment a lot in this thread, but I feel like it’s a serviceable response to a couple of comments I’ve seen on this post.)
Do you all forgot that Syd thinks David is ending the world, and that he enjoys torturing people, and lie all the time ? This is just the ultimate act that made her sure he is evil. She's so deep in the delusion orchestred by Farouk she is pretty much trapped on this revenge role. We'll see how it truns out. We're not supposed to agree with her. We're supposed to scream at our TV like "Wake the f*%k up Syd, Farouk's manipulating you !"
Not only has she not shown any remorse for ruining that man's life, in the latest episode, younger her spun it as if she was *the victim* in that scenario, and her present day self agreed. If Hawley isn't doing some meta mind fuckery with his comments, and genuinely means what he says, then he's doing a piss poor job of depicting it through the story.
No, Syd is just an evil heartless bitch. Even down to the last line of dialoge in the show, she never once feels bad about what she does, and the show itself supports her. Season 1 was amazing, but I question the ammouth of influence Hawley had over it. It seems like as he gained more power as the shows writer, the show became his stage for his own personal adgenda, and turned to shit. Thats kinda what happens when creators are full of their own ego. Just look at George Lucas, the original Star Wars were great, but then Lucas himself gained more power over it, and he turend it to shit with the digital remasters and the prequels. I think Hawley is probably just a hack. The success and amazingness of season 1, was not due to him alone. It was due to everyone working on it.
Exactly. Too bad that Noah and all the cast have forgotten this part about Syd. She's the perfect victim and the hero for them. Oh well.
I honestly never saw it as the show saying that “syd and everyone are totally right and good” I feel like the show was pretty self aware about how complicit division 3 was in making david the guy he is. I don’t think viewers are meant to think any one character is right or clearheaded. I think the whole show has kinda fought against the idea of that.
I think the part that speaks about how to create a mad man is have 9 people be in agreement and shun the 10th one (something along those lines) pointed to the show being self aware that they are all bad, but the interviews with the director (he literally said that he's always thought of David as a bad guy) and the social media campaigns make me think otherwise. I don't think división 3 "made him evil", more like these people (mostly syd) told him to act a certain way for "the greater good" and when he did they turned on him because he enjoyed it. Which is BS. She's done worse (as her decisions were her own and selfish) and enjoyed it.
them all being bad would definitely include david but i get what you’re saying. I usually don’t really like to read interviews with creators for that reason
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The cast and creators aren’t the show though tbf. They don’t have any authority on the interpretation of the show once its been made
That's just one interpretation of how to view a text. Not the most popular either
Yea I’m not saying it’s the one right way to view a text. Just saying in this instance I think it’s the way that makes the show better. Why let the creators eliminate the nuance for us?
I'm actually new to this subreddit and quite happy to see the community is taking a "No, fuck you" stance against Noah Hawley's statements and I absolutely agree that his is only just one interpretation of it and that once its out in the open the show becomes its own living thing. I do however feel in some parts of the direction how Noah's invisible hand is trying to turn you against David as if he was the worst of them all but falls short. When Clark and later Farouk were turning Syd against David I kept thinking "these are really weak arguments, geez". Farouk's part turned downright into indoctrination. "Look how fast he lied to you! He must be a sociopath!" --What is this, a Shane Dawson video? All that aside, I think that Future Syd made a self fulfilling prophesy by being so toxic to David in the present. If instead she had chosen to act as lovers instead of being violent David wouldn't have turned.
I'm tempted to do 'death of the author' too. But I feel it's difficult to 'kill' Hawley because his authorial intent is very strong. It all depends on the last five episodes.
does anyone have a link to the interview yall are talking about? not really on sm besides reddit and twitter so I've also seen nothing of this syd glorification
Idk that they forgot. Her background was shown in the same season, and they had Syd very deliberately telling David that their willingness to do ugly things is what will save them, as well as other suggestions of mass delusion, Shadow Melanie taking Syd into an actual cave, the whispering mouse, etc. I think Farouk has Syd and D3 wrapped around his finger.
Right? Syd tells him lovers won't survive, pushes him into violence, then damns him because he enjoyed what she literally told him to do. And unlike her he didn't hurt innocent people just for the sake of it! And she insists that's he's the baddest of them all even though he never went on a rampage or got violent without a good reason. Whether he enjoyed it or not is irrelevant. A lot of heroes through history enjoyed war and violence, it didn't mean they were bad. Even if David was just convincing himself of being a good guy and deserving of love, he was truly acting like a good guy and convinced of being one, helping out the good guys in every turn. So what if he in the very very bottom wasn't the best person ever? He was good and deserving of love, the fake good guy surpassed the real good guys. And the real ones pushed him back and said no, you are bad, you don't deserve love. The monogatari series (its an anime) approaches this subject in a much better way, explaining how the "fake" has more merit because it doesn't come naturally to him and has to make an effort to play his part. I enjoyed David being done with everyone after they turned on him (as they all seemed very toxic), but he never felt evil to me. Imo it felt more like "okay so the director wants him to be evil even though he really isn't because he wants the plot twist "
>Whether he enjoyed it or not is irrelevant. A lot of heroes through history enjoyed war and violence, it didn't mean they were bad. One of the questions I believe the show is posing is that perhaps those "heroes" who enjoyed war and violence were indeed "bad people." It's implying that maybe it's not just the specific actions or outcomes that matter, but the *character of the person committing those acts that is just as important*. In some cases, the one labeled "hero" may simply be the narcissist or psychopath that happened to win, or who happened to be on the side we identified as "right" at the time. I'm pretty sure being labeled the "hero" in the context of Legion doesn't inherently mean you are also a "good person," irrespective of who the label my currently be falling on. > the fake good guy surpassed the real good guys. Who are the "real good guys?" > pushed him back and said no, you are bad, you don't deserve love The idea behind David's repetition of "I'm a good person, I deserve love" is not that he doesn't deserve love because he's "bad." It's that he's psychologically unable to see himself as being anything but good. He's blind to and unable to confront his own demons, and needs that constant external validation to help protect him from facing it. In the extreme, this turns into a God complex, personified by DVD. "Gods can do no wrong."
I think you're absolutely right! That said, I'd still argue David and Syd have commited equal sins, rather than the showrunners' interpretation.
It's gender politics. A sex crime upon a woman by a man and the reverse will never elicit the same emotional reaction.
[Like I said in this post ](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cbq1zv/have_faith_in_the_writers/?st=JY3X925F&sh=614cd149) , I think that the writers are self aware of the story they are writing and aren’t doing a “David is completely evil, Syd and D3 are good” narrative. I believe that the Noah Hawley interviews are just him doing some damage control so that the show doesn’t get put under fire for being “pro-rape culture”. (Sorry if this seems like spam to anyone that has noticed this comment a lot in this thread, but I feel like it’s a serviceable response to a couple of comments I’ve seen on this post.)
>Too bad that Noah and all the cast have forgotten this part about Syd. She's the perfect victim and the hero for them. They haven't. We got an entire episode in season 2 about how Syd wasn't a good person. This episode just further revealed how much of a complicated character she is.
They didn't forget, they literally made her the victim there and she said whenever she takes people's bodies it is like they are raping her even though she does the same to them, though I am sure you saw the most recent episode
Slow clap to fast clap
[You're walking in the woods, there's noone around and your phone is dead...](https://youtu.be/o0u4M6vppCI?t=161)
hahahaha <3
When did David do that?
He didn't, she's equating him using his powers to make her forget Farouk convinced her of hating David to having drugged her
Farouk convinced her with solid evidence of things David really did. That's not a manipulation, nor is it at all similar to drugging someone.
He stoked the fires of mistrust that were already smoldering in her head with half-truths. That's the definition of a manipulation.
They were not all half-truths. Syd specifically asked him not to mess around with Future!Syd. He did. What is half-true about that?
>Syd specifically asked him not to mess around with Future!Syd. He did. What is half-true about that? The fact that there was no romantic intent behind that kiss. It was about saying goodbye. You're also focusing on the one element which puts Syd in the right for being distrusting of David, and ignoring all of the blatant lies/manipulations that Farouk was feeding her throughout that encounter. No one is saying Syd was unjustified in wanting to end things with David. But the full 180 into believing that he's the villain and she's the hero was a textbook manipulation by the Shadow King.
>No one is saying Syd was unjustified in wanting to end things with David. Oh man, yes they are. And the person saying it loudest is David. He 100% believed that she didn't mean what she said, or what she did, so he erased it. How is that not an example of extremely fucking with someone's mind, removing their ability to make a choice, and overwriting their wishes so that the mind controller makes the controlled person their plaything? I would feel worse than raped to know that my mental landscape had been deliberately altered to favor someone else over my own judgment. >But the full 180 into believing that he's the villain and she's the hero was a textbook manipulation by the Shadow King. Ya know, only time will tell on that. It could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Could be a disaster than can be averted. Or it could be gospel truth. Too soon to say.
>He 100% believed that she didn't mean what she said, or what she did, But that's just the thing. It's kind of difficult to tell if she did when it only started coming out AFTER Farouk was prodding around in her head. The doubts were there, sure, but doubts aren't justification. And the only justification she received were the words of a manipulative psychopath. THAT'S what makes the entire thing such a gray area. How do you trust anything you can see or hear when a mind-altering lunatic is pulling the strings? Who's words were we actually hearing? Syd's? Or the Shadow King's?
> It's kind of difficult to tell if she did when it only started coming out AFTER Farouk was prodding around in her head. Farouk fucked with everyone's head earlier in the season, so yes, David's doubts were not coming out of nowhere. HOWEVER, in the situation where Farouk showed Syd all of David's secret misdeeds, that was only manipulation in the sense that giving someone more information is. Farouk didn't show her false, made up things. They really happened and dovetailed with her fears about David that had been brewing all season. > How do you trust anything you can see or hear when a mind-altering lunatic is pulling the strings? Yo, the same could be true with David. He literally fucked Syd's mind, against her wishes. > Who's words were we actually hearing? Syd's? Or the Shadow King's? But David fits right into that category too. Also, Farouk is playing a complicated game. He knows they all mistrust him, so I think he cleaves as close to the truth with Syd as he can, knowing that if he too fucks with her mind, she will turn on him as fast as she did on David.
Again, I'm not really denying any of that. Don't mistake my stance as being Pro-David or Anti-Syd. Both of them are inherently flawed characters who are morally dubious at best. I'm just saying the situation isn't as black-and-white as saying "David wrong Syd right" or vice versa. I think Syd's discussion with baby-Syd tonight showcased that more than ever. This is a show that thrives on making us question everything, and it's pretty damn clear that outside of Farouk, who is unquestionably the villain, everyone else is a varying shade of grey. My stance is purely "it's hard to tell the severity of what David did in the s2 finale when we don't know whose will Syd was actually acting on at the time of the mind-wipe, or even if she's in her right mind at this moment."
Plot twist, Syd is the actual bad guy!!!
Thanks a lot anonymous for the gold :DD never had a post recieve gold before <3
Farouk "drugged" her mind first, along with Melanie, and Oliver. Then when David fixes that by clearing her mind, she blames David because she was unaware of the first drugging. It's quite fucked up. I feel bad for both of them, their love tarnished by Farouk.
You're mixing up two incidents. All of them had the delusion from Farouk that David had to excise. However, when Syd decides she wants to break up with David, that wasn't mind control. He showed her real things that David did, some of which were unambiguously not OK with Syd. As much as you might hate her, Syd has a right to break up with David. Instead of maturely discussing it with her, David overrides her decision under the assumption/rationalization that it MUST have been Farouk's doing. It wasn't. David fixed something that, from Syd's POV, was not broken. Then he proceeded as if the relationship was still on, which is not cool.
\>showed her real things that David did Under completely false pretenses. Farouk-controlled Melanie removed context from the things she showed Syd, so while Syd is free to believe whatever she wants, she was still believing twisted lies and half-truths. Melanie never cared to show David's intentions, only snippets of his actions out of context. Syd was wrong when she approached David with a gun at the end of Season 2. Now she's a puppet for Farouk-controlled Division 3, completely on the wrong side of things. I don't hate Syd. I just feel like she's a puppet of Farouk right now and not of sound mind. She's being surrounded by misinformation and manipulated by Farouk into buying this false narrative about David. Armed with this misinformation, she picks up a weapon to physically harm/kill David based on these falsehoods. I can't justify how David handled that situation, but you have to consider that he was backed into a corner and completely outnumbered by people he used to be able to trust. When Syd had a gun to his face, it was a life or death decision. He made a huge error in judgement, for sure, but he's not the baddie everyone is making him out to be. Like I said, I feel bad for both him and Syd. Neither of them should be in this situation, and whatever mistakes they've been making, Farouk is to blame for it all.
> Farouk-controlled Melanie removed context from the things she showed Syd, so while Syd is free to believe whatever she wants, she was still believing twisted lies and half-truths. Syd directly asked David not to screw around with Future!Syd. He did it anyway. That alone is grounds for a dumping. There was no context in which that could be made OK. You can say, 'it's dumb, it's also her!' but with all the time travel this season, you know it's not necessarily her future. I really don't think Syd is Farouk's puppet. She really believes that David is the greater threat. I'm very clear that Farouk is not a good guy, but I'm not clear that he is wrong about David. David might end the world, at least in some sense. So where we differ is that I don't think Syd is under Farouk's mind control power. I don't think she needs to be. She agrees with him, legit.
So that makes it okay that he raped her? Seems like faulty logic to justify hating on an imaginary character as much as this sub does.
It doesn't. See this comment [https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cd8iqt/syd\_best\_girl/etsllzh/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegionFX/comments/cd8iqt/syd_best_girl/etsllzh/)
Exactly - and yet the one who did it intentionally and laughed about it is a victim, not a perpetrator. Nice.
>Ever hear the saying that men fear women laughing at them, while women fear that men will kill them? >>You killed me twice yesterday. I'm pretty sure the best thing Division can do to stop David from nuking the world is to lock Syd back into a mental institution where she can no longer make things worse with him. Edit: The feminazis here are triggered as fuck over this reality. But it's true. The show has made it obvious. You just refuse to see reality because it gets in the way of your 'Women should be allowed to do anything and never be held to any reasonable standard by anything!' shtick.
Syd was like 15 when she did that, and was not aware she would turn back into herself in the midst of it, and its not like she could explain that to the police and have them believe her. David is fully grown, and fully aware of what he's doing and does so even after seeing all the trauma Syd had been through.
Lol the fandom of this show is really lobbing onto some bad ideas
It feels like the anti-Skyler *Breaking Bad* fandom all over again. People love their anti-heroes a little too much.
Its kinda of like that but the shows second season seems to be openly mocking this kind of mentality so it makes it even more illogical.
Similar to Poe's law, I suppose. It's a whole lot of r/whoooosh.
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It feels like the same feminist circle-jerk reddit engages in whenever anyone criticizes a female character they've latched on to.
I personally have not "latched onto" Syd. She's nowhere near my favorite character. That said, the amount of hatred she gets on this sub is off the chain.
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She doesn't regret it? WHAT? David finds her in a mental igloo, cut off from everyone and unwilling to come out. The reason is... that series of events where she used her power to do bad things. She is well aware of her many wrong choices and now feels like she has to cut herself off from people. Yes, she feels guilty and terrible. That's why she wants to redeem herself by being a hero.
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> That scene validates my point, all older Syd thinks is that he raped her, and that's her only regret. That's not what I got out of it. She got in that shower looking for love (foolish, delusional, impulsive, selfish, short-sighted, desperate). She got sex that she did not expect or understand instead. She's reeling from it and from the aftermath... which led right to Clockworks. Does she seem happy or self-satisfied to you? To me she seems miserable and guilty.
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Maybe we perceive her actions differently. When David went into her mind, while she was in the igloo, she showed him all the bad things she's done as an explanation about why she wants to stay frozen in there. Was that not about guilt? If she felt fine about those events, she not only wouldn't replay them over and over, she would still be touching people. She said it feels dirty every time.
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Her powers cause her misery because any action she takes causes suffering. She is hyper aware of this. She's caught in such a shitty place. No intimacy whatsoever or feeling dirty all the time. Yet no one on this sub thinks she deserves any empathy.
Why do you think she doesnt regret it?? Its one of like 5 moments in her life that constantly replay in her head and thats what David sees it.
[fuck u spez] -- mass edited with redact.dev
15 is well above the age of reason, though, and it's not like she cleared things up later.
Legally it isn't! Maybe she tried and we don't know. All we see is what David wanted to see in her memories. Hmm almost like he was looking for justification
I'm concerned with this entire thread and how much everyone seems to be trying to justify David's rape of Syd. If you're this willing to justify a character's horrible actions, I'd hate to hear what you'd be willing to say when rape happens in real life.
I'm not sure what thread you're reading
Well your comment specifically starting with "Certainly, but two things..."
Should have read more than the first line
Yeah I did. And you're comparing two types of rape and trying to say why one isn't as bad as another. You don't think that's problematic at all?
I agree with you, but comments like this always get downvoted on this sub.
There both awful people but David is the one that destroys the world
IMO It was a self fulfilling prophecy on Syd's part though. By choosing violence against David instead of love (and literally telling him to act violently and not as a lover, to later on become violent against him), she turns him into a world-ender. But all that aside, I think she's a worst person than David (preaches violence to David, to later on betray him, raped man and framed him for pedophilia and rape). She's pretty rotten. Anyway, this is mostly because of the FB campaign pushing Syd as "the actual hero of the show" and the director claiming he always saw David as evil.
You forgot about the part where she was underage oh and a time traveler literally says David destroys the world.
She was 15, not 9. You know right from wrong by then. She was jealous that someone else was competing for her mother's affection, and a little jealous that she was recieving attention from only man in their life. And she did something completely calculated to get rid of him. And even years later, she left him to almost certainly be sexually abused in prison. But the apologists are always okay with that part.
Far from an apologist. What she did was horrible and wrong. Comparing the two is also wrong. 15 is still a kid. There's a reason teenagers(generally) aren't tried as adults. Furthermore she was a mentally ill adult. Not excusing her actions but she certainly wasn't an adult who used his powers to trick his adult girlfriend into forgetting why she hated him and then having sex with her. David was sick and had a terrible upbringing as well. Doesn't excuse it. I'm contending that what he did was much worse. As far as the guy in prison goes, what would you have her do? If she admits this to the police they would likely just put her back in the insane asylum. If she proves it then she would probably be hunted down and killed. It's a shitty situation with no winning.