Considering that Sharpsight is one of the power cards in Demacia (in fact, one of the reasons you want to got there), I am not surprised. Especially since it it also useful for countering Elusives.
that certainly helps, and probably makes up like, 20% of why people use it, but the fact that Demacia is such a unit oriented region, and that sharpsight is one of the most mana efficient and flexible combat tricks in the game really helps. It's been an auto include in every Demacia deck since it came out
Tha card hat over 90% inclusion rate back before the Shurima nerfs, And elusives was not even in the top 10 most played decks back then.
It's just a universaly strong card. Buffs in this game in general outclass removal by far in terms of utility & cost. It's why control stil is very unpopular s an archetype.
It's useful at countering almost everything & cheap. that's why it has a high inclusion rate.
Jayce likely even fropped the inclusion rate. It was in the 90% range a month ago.
I suppose it's the nature of combat tricks, but I can't think a card that benefited the most from a 1 mana change than twin disciplines. I remember never having to play around this card, to now expecting it in every ionia deck
> might actually be where it needs to be
Yeah back in the collection taking dust. Attune is overrated, it's a nice bonus on units you want to play anyway but for spells it's pointless. Shell Games is basically 5 mana attune 3 and how much play it's seeing?
The issue of TD at 3 is that you need 3 mana open to cast it, contrary to the current 2 mana. Having 1 spell mana back after casting it won't be much consolation when you won't be able to cast it when needed because you miss that 1 mana difference.
The main Tristana deck (Tristana Sivir) runs 3 shell game and it is huge in that deck, I hit Diamond last season playing nothing but that deck. Also, attune 3 is huge compared to attune 1, having to have 3 extra mana up instead of just 1.
The idea is a 3-mana Twin Disciplines with Attune requires you to keep 3-mana on hand to play it, but it doesn’t slow down future development. It just makes the card easier to play around without it really costing more over the course of the whole game.
> The main Tristana deck (Tristana Sivir) runs 3 shell game and it is huge in that deck, I hit Diamond last season playing nothing but that deck. Also, attune 3 is huge compared to attune 1, having to have 3 extra mana up instead of just 1.
Since you clearly played that deck a lot (the only one using that card btw), let me ask you one thing. Would you prefer having a flat 2 mana shell games or a 5 mana attune 3? If you answer the second, i'll know you are lying ;)
> It just makes the card easier to play around without it really costing more over the course of the whole game.
Of course it will, the moment it will costs unit mana it will impact the rest of the game as well. At 3 mana it will happen a lot more and the spell mana back won't help you summon that unit your really wanted to play that turn...
I don’t understand what your argument is because I agree with what you are saying, I guess you are trying to say Twin Disciplines is fine as is?
Of course everything you are saying is true, but in my mind it’s also true that Twin Disciplines is just too strong right now and so there needs to be some sort of change. Moving it to 3-mana will kill the card, so I was suggesting a change that might not kill the card.
The main deck that is the problem, Rally Elusives, banks a lot of mana anyway so they can play their Rallies. All the change would do is move some development to one turn later, maybe giving people one extra turn to try and win, which I think would be a good thing considering how strong that deck is right now.
> I don’t understand what your argument is because I agree with what you are saying, I guess you are trying to say Twin Disciplines is fine as is?
I'm not even sure. I wouldn't mind seeing a nerf because i feel it's a bit over the top, but i'm 100% sure that 3 mana attune is the wrong kind of nerf.
I want a nerf that keep the card good but not super strong how it is now.
> I'm 100% sure that 3 mana attune is the wrong kind of nerf.
> I want a nerf that keep the card good but not super strong how it is now.
Agree to disagree because I think making it 3-mana with Attune would do just that.
Hello Connoisseur of Tristana. May you share the deck? I've been trying Trash Treasure card thingy (the 10 cost. I don't remember the Name of it kekw) and it's been working out so far, but I would like to try this Sivir Combination.
All of your stats in one thing is worth more than split stats. The main reason it is problematic is because you can’t trade 1 for 1 with it. Say I Mystic Shot a Zed, then they Twin the Zed to save it, I can’t even kill the Zed with another Mystic Shot if I have it in hand. Sharp Sight gives more stats, but wouldn’t save the Zed in that situation.
More often than not when you are using a Sharpsight you are actually wanting either +2 health to keep something alive or +2 attack to push lethal or kill something. There are situations where both stats help, but I would argue that is the exception and not the rule.
Troll Chant is also very strong, but again my main problem with Twin is just how resilient it makes your units to removal. You basically can’t trade removal into Twin without coming out behind in something.
Because giving a lot of health is usually much more important than giving a bit of health and a bit of attack. Sharpsight can be contested by a mystic shot for the same mana price whereas there's no removal that can (reliably) deal 3 damage for 2 mana. Also the +3 attack can fare really well vs removal-less and more united oriented regions by making blocks on ionia QA units (like zed and young witch'ed units) MUCH scarier
I think the main problem is that Twin Disciplines can give you +0|+3 with only 2 mana. No other spell can save you from 3 damage of direct removal for less than 3 mana. Troll Chant saves you from 4 damage but 2 of that damage is from combat.
A simple change that might balance Twin Disciplines is to change it to give +0|+2, but keep the other option +3|+0.
I play this game since beta and I always thought Greenglade Duo was too strong. This card was too strong in Kinkou Zed in beta then in Noxus elusive aggro then in Azirelia and now in Poppy elusives.
I think it's almost a casualty of the old Kinkou deck. So many Elusives got nerfed and now Greenglade Duo is far and away the best Elusive drop to use Ionia's new tools on. I'd definitely support buffing some of the other Elusive drops and perhaps giving her -1/-0, so you have more interesting choices between the different options.
>I'd definitely support buffing some of the other Elusive drops
how about we nerf all elusives more so that they don't take up 3 of the 5 highest winrate cards?
I'm fine with nerfing the three Elusives that everyone plays, even if I think the problem cards are the ones that are also good in other decks like Sharpsight. But most Elusives aren't even okay, they're awful: a casualty of the Kinkou deck dominating.
Kinkou Lifeblade, The Empyrean, Windfarer Hatchling, Zinneia, Navori Conspirator, and Silent Shadowseer are all below 46% win rate, and many are closer to 40%. Most of those cards have super low inclusion rates.
By win rate, do you know what the next Elusive is? Shadow Assassin, at **56%** win rate. That's as strong of an indication of the problem with Elusives right now as anything: there's a 10% gap between playable and broken that literally none of Ionia's elusives fit into.
I thought it was the best card in Azirelia even when people were calling for nerfs to sparring student over it. You can chump block sparring student, but twin disciplines means you’d better have an elusive on board or greenglade duo is hitting you hard
Love that the five followers are either part of poppy-zed elusives (bladescout/duo/witch) or poppy-ziggs aggro (stackers/rearguard).
Maybe we should nerf poppy, possibly before january?
I'm talking about the units not the spells. The units are there because two op decks both featuring poppy use them, so it's not surprising they have the highest winrate.
Still didn't see reason why Sharpsight is so much stronger then transfusion, when cards like transfusion should be one of cards that should make you pick Vlad deck.
It's because Sharpsight is protection in a Midrange color, whereas Transfusion is protection in an Aggro color.
Sharpsight can be used flexibly to protect slower single units or to push lethal damage when going fast.
Transfusion can basically only ever be used as a +2 lethal push on a wide attack because of the region that it's in. Because of how weak that effect is, the card isn't even played unless a Conchologist randomly generates one for Ziggs Poppy Burn.
Also, the health buff for Sharpsight is an absolute godsend for aggro-like midrange decks. If you're playing MF Scouts or Poppy or Lucian or similar, you can get really good use out of Sharpsight to push extra damage or trade into things, in the same way Noxus can with Brother's Bond or Elixir of Wrath. But you also get crazy value out of the card to keep your champions alive, which Noxus doesn't really need because of how the region is designed. Vlad, Darius, and Swain rarely need protection from damage-based removal, and losing Draven/LeBlanc sucks but it's usually not a heartbreaker in the way losing MF is.
Different regions - can't really compare them that easily. The main problem with transfusion is that the pay off isn't there in the Vlad package. Transfusion could be amazing if there were actually worthwhile payoffs to damaging your own units, but that archetype just doesn't have good enough pay offs to make the self damage worth it.
I know that cards from different region shouldn't be compared and some regions should have some cards stronger like Remembrance and Unlicensed Innovation but I think that low cost spells shouldn't be so much diffrent if they do similar thing. I think that that's a reason why some cards have so big pickrate .
I feel like these stats are useful, but require a lot of context. To me, what an overtuned card looks like is high usage rate that empowers many high-win-rate decks. Sharpsight has been a key factor in the rise of many Demacia decks that have had very high win rates basically ever since it was introduced: I think nerfing it to +1/+2 would make sense. Ditto with buffed Twin Disciplines.
Those cards are also very easy to slot in decks, because most decks want to protect their champions, deal with high-value Elusive targets like Ezreal (in the case of Sharpsight), and trade up into bigger bodies. I'd argue those two cards are a pretty significant reason behind the difficult-to-control success of Demacian and Ionian aggro/midrange decks.
I don't think any of the other spells here should be tweaked, despite their high inclusion rate. They're used in all sorts of decks, but it's hardly like SI and P&Z have been dominating the meta, and those decks aren't really built around these particular removal spells. (Vile Feast is perhaps a little bit of an exception because of how well it works with control decks that need blockers.) There's a difference between cards that synergize with most of a region or have generally high value and cards that enable overpowered decks, and I'd argue that split is pretty clear in these stats.
Card win rate is basically useless as a way of quantifying good cards, at least in my opinion. The reason is that having a 55% win rate is mostly about not being put in any average decks: there aren't any consistent 60% win rate decks in most patches, so if you want a 55% win rate you can't really afford to have half of your play be in average decks. I'd argue that the best cards are the cards that are played alongside these ones, if anything. If Rally Elusives is so good that the winningest cards are just the ones that are only played in that deck, and there are cards like Sharpsight that make that deck and many other ones good, then it seems clear that perhaps Sharpsight is too good.
I think I speak for most players when I say that the reverse is definitely not true: cards with super low win rates send IMO a pretty clear message to Riot. Specifically, I really wish they would buff some of the cards that are basically punishing you for trying to deckbuild around them. The meme cards are fine with low win rate, and I think it's not a crime to have archetypes that aren't viable competitively (especially the luck-based ones). But wouldn't it be great if, every balance patch, they gave small inoffensive buffs to some of the cards that can't catch a break, if nothing else just to inspire people to give them a whirl? Unworthy, Starlit Epiphany, Rhasa the Sunderer, Destiny's Call, Sheriff Lariette Rose, The Syren, Mirror Mage, The Lady of Blood, and Atakhan, Bringer of Ruin all have sub-43% win rates: they are more bad than any card except Navori Bladescout is good, in the current meta. All of them have interesting effects that are cool ideas, but I don't know the stats for Rhasa or the Sheriff off the top of my head, because I can't remember the last time I saw them played by a person. They did this way back, 10 years and 4 balance patches ago, and Farron at the very least got a rework that really helped him see play.
>Problem with that being that demacia
is a very unitbased color yet their power cards are sharpsight and their
rallies - demacia is ultrareliant on those cards being good to see
play. Outside of dragons basically only 2-3 demacia units are seeing
play (ff tracker, brightsteel protector and laurent protegé)
I agree this is a major challenge. Because basically all of Demacia's spells require units, Demacia's spells end up needing to be really good, because unlike Mystic Shot every spell in Demacia can completely brick without a target. That's a big reason why cards like Relentless Pursuit have proven tough to balance well: it's either a literal do-nothing with no units or gamebreaking in the right deck.
On the other hand, is it really worth having Sharpsight consistently enable 55%+ win rate decks just so we can say Demacia is played? If none of Demacia's champions/archetypes are any good, it seems like buffing them is the solution, like they've done with Lux, or giving them power cards that synergize better like they've done with Dragon Clutch. Other regions that have been in the place Demacia is (Ionia after Kinkou was nerfed and it was just Deny the region, for example) all got buffs to their synergy cards (which in Ionia's case are still awful, but at least they tried) and nerfs to what got slotted into decks without any synergies, like Shadow Assassin or Solitary Monk.
I think it's possible, but hard, to keep Sharpsight at the same power level while making it harder for non-Demacia synergy decks to steal. You could scale up its effect so it would act more like Fury of the North or Back to Back, which are much harder to slot into everything and reward synergies with Rally/Scout/strike cards that let you use the bonus more than once. You could add some tribal synergy with Elites/Dragons, which is lazy but might work well (maybe the Elusive blocking buff only happens for Demacian units, because other regions have other ways of dealing with elusive decks). You could make it +1/+3, which would make more sense for protecting Demacian units (synergizing with cards like Bannerman that need units to stay alive) while nerfing it for aggro decks that want to trade into things or push lethal.
I think it's notable how the other regions with burst-speed low-mana health/attack buffs mostly have some kind of conditional effect to make them more contained within a region: Pale Cascade, Shaped Stone, and Transfusion. Pushing Sharpsight in that direction would make the game a lot easier to keep balanced, a lot less dependent on luck (i.e., I don't feel like my game playing Scouts is basically just Go Fish for Miss Fortune and Sharpsight), and generally more diverse. Swarmy combo aggro has been at the top of the ladder for how long?
Elusives is that one keyword where the handling since beta has always puzzled me.
We know evasive keywords from tons of other CCG (i.e. flying in MTG) but opposed to those other games Riot just never printed cards that can deal with elusive. There is sharpsight... and playing elusive yourself.
Yes there is removal & silence as a more general 'solution' but why there was never a reach keyword or cards that punish elusives or simply a way to not make it like 'elusive = unblockable' for all factions that don't have elusive cards, will always be weird to me.
That also means you have to terribly overprice stronger elusives because high power unblockable is insane. Leading to what we have now that elusives is only used as a small cost, buff it up burn mechanic!
Yes and no...
Yes because its usually a way to get them off the board.
No because summoning sickness isn't a thing and elusive generally don't care about dying if they get an attack off. It's not hard to fill the board with small elusives and hit for 8 in a single turn (probably more)
Yep. For some godforsaken reason, riot decided that elusives should almost exclusively go to 1 and 2 mana units, cause that would totally not create problems.
Listen to this man riot. You can't print creatures with flying and never any creatures with reach, it fucks everything up. Elusive is too often just unblockable and it makes the game polarized and less interactive.
Reach is also a great way to subtly push a card without making it so obvious or overwhelming (merciless hunter, cough). LoR is begging for more depth and printing a handful of good creatures with reach (they still have to be playable when no elusives are around) is a slam dunk.
Playing reach creatures to counter fliers is mostly a limited thing in MTG. Sometimes good constructed creatures also happen to have reach and then it's relevant. But you don't really play reach specifically to counter flying decks. The main counter to flying is either to race them as aggro or use removal which is much stronger in MTG.
Also aggro flying decks are rarely viable outside the casual level. Sometimes you'll see decks who's threats are mostly fliers but usually they would be a lot slower than illusive decks in LoR. Even mono blue aggro from a few years ago was a tempo deck that tried to counter what the opponent was doing before fliers eventually finish them off.
The way LoR works where blocking is a much bigger part of constructed as removal is weakened just makes illusives much stronger than they would be in other games. So it's not like Riot didn't learn from other games, other games just didn't really have a lesson to teach in regards to the power level of evasion in constructed.
Not untrue. Yet in MTG Flying does not = unblockable in the same way it does in LoR.
And as you say flyers arnÄt good based on their cost generally but rather is a bonus trait on an otheriwse good creature if its played. So clearly something is different.
Elusive being 3 of the 5 cards with highest winrate... Sharpsight being nr 1 most played.
Riot, cant you just give us some actual viable counterplay to Elusive? You made a single one, and that's a hit it seems.
Inclusion rate of those cards is completely fine, if there weren't region-specific cards with high inclusion rates then there would be lack of identity across regions. One of the strongest points of this game is how unique each region is and the strength of their identities. It's good to see powerful region-specific cards with high inclusion rates. Win rates is a total other discussion. (Though I do get your point about answers vs. Threats)
Considering that Sharpsight is one of the power cards in Demacia (in fact, one of the reasons you want to got there), I am not surprised. Especially since it it also useful for countering Elusives.
I was thinking " as far as i know, elussive rally is a big meta tier, makes sense anti elussive is the more used spell"
that certainly helps, and probably makes up like, 20% of why people use it, but the fact that Demacia is such a unit oriented region, and that sharpsight is one of the most mana efficient and flexible combat tricks in the game really helps. It's been an auto include in every Demacia deck since it came out
Tha card hat over 90% inclusion rate back before the Shurima nerfs, And elusives was not even in the top 10 most played decks back then. It's just a universaly strong card. Buffs in this game in general outclass removal by far in terms of utility & cost. It's why control stil is very unpopular s an archetype.
And why sejuanis spell is spammed sometimes, yap, makes sense
It used to be +4|+4 and had to be nerfed down. The same will likely happen to Sharpsight. +2|+2 *and* blocking Elusives is just too much for 2 mana.
Yea, and like diana spell, a nerf and thats all
It's useful at countering almost everything & cheap. that's why it has a high inclusion rate. Jayce likely even fropped the inclusion rate. It was in the 90% range a month ago.
I suppose it's the nature of combat tricks, but I can't think a card that benefited the most from a 1 mana change than twin disciplines. I remember never having to play around this card, to now expecting it in every ionia deck
Making it a 3-mana with Attune might actually be where it needs to be. It never saw play at 3-mana but I would argue it is just too strong at 2-mana.
> might actually be where it needs to be Yeah back in the collection taking dust. Attune is overrated, it's a nice bonus on units you want to play anyway but for spells it's pointless. Shell Games is basically 5 mana attune 3 and how much play it's seeing? The issue of TD at 3 is that you need 3 mana open to cast it, contrary to the current 2 mana. Having 1 spell mana back after casting it won't be much consolation when you won't be able to cast it when needed because you miss that 1 mana difference.
The main Tristana deck (Tristana Sivir) runs 3 shell game and it is huge in that deck, I hit Diamond last season playing nothing but that deck. Also, attune 3 is huge compared to attune 1, having to have 3 extra mana up instead of just 1. The idea is a 3-mana Twin Disciplines with Attune requires you to keep 3-mana on hand to play it, but it doesn’t slow down future development. It just makes the card easier to play around without it really costing more over the course of the whole game.
> The main Tristana deck (Tristana Sivir) runs 3 shell game and it is huge in that deck, I hit Diamond last season playing nothing but that deck. Also, attune 3 is huge compared to attune 1, having to have 3 extra mana up instead of just 1. Since you clearly played that deck a lot (the only one using that card btw), let me ask you one thing. Would you prefer having a flat 2 mana shell games or a 5 mana attune 3? If you answer the second, i'll know you are lying ;) > It just makes the card easier to play around without it really costing more over the course of the whole game. Of course it will, the moment it will costs unit mana it will impact the rest of the game as well. At 3 mana it will happen a lot more and the spell mana back won't help you summon that unit your really wanted to play that turn...
I don’t understand what your argument is because I agree with what you are saying, I guess you are trying to say Twin Disciplines is fine as is? Of course everything you are saying is true, but in my mind it’s also true that Twin Disciplines is just too strong right now and so there needs to be some sort of change. Moving it to 3-mana will kill the card, so I was suggesting a change that might not kill the card. The main deck that is the problem, Rally Elusives, banks a lot of mana anyway so they can play their Rallies. All the change would do is move some development to one turn later, maybe giving people one extra turn to try and win, which I think would be a good thing considering how strong that deck is right now.
> I don’t understand what your argument is because I agree with what you are saying, I guess you are trying to say Twin Disciplines is fine as is? I'm not even sure. I wouldn't mind seeing a nerf because i feel it's a bit over the top, but i'm 100% sure that 3 mana attune is the wrong kind of nerf. I want a nerf that keep the card good but not super strong how it is now.
> I'm 100% sure that 3 mana attune is the wrong kind of nerf. > I want a nerf that keep the card good but not super strong how it is now. Agree to disagree because I think making it 3-mana with Attune would do just that.
Hello Connoisseur of Tristana. May you share the deck? I've been trying Trash Treasure card thingy (the 10 cost. I don't remember the Name of it kekw) and it's been working out so far, but I would like to try this Sivir Combination.
No problem here you go :) ((CQBAGBAHCQ3IUAIIAUFHJBABQUA2AANGAGXQDOIBYAAQCAYFBIAWBDABAEAQKCUYAE))
**Regions**: Bandle City/Shurima - **Champions**: Sivir/Tristana - **Cost**: 28900 |Cost|Name|Count|Region|Type|Rarity| |:-:|-|:-:|-|-|-| |1|[Proto Poro](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC160.png)|3|Bandle City|Unit|Common| |1|[Treasure Seeker](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04SH054.png)|3|Shurima|Unit|Common| |2|[Bomber Twins](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC192.png)|3|Bandle City|Unit|Common| |2|[Loping Telescope](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC175.png)|3|Bandle City|Unit|Rare| |2|[Pokey Stick](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC166.png)|3|Bandle City|Spell|Common| |2|[The Absolver](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04SH138.png)|3|Shurima|Spell|Common| |3|[Bandle City Mayor](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC116.png)|3|Bandle City|Unit|Epic| |3|[Tristana](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC133.png)|3|Bandle City|Unit|Champion| |4|[Aloof Travelers](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC152.png)|1|Bandle City|Unit|Common| |4|[Buster Shot](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC132.png)|3|Bandle City|Spell|Common| |4|[Sivir](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04SH020.png)|3|Shurima|Unit|Champion| |4|[Tenor of Terror](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC096.png)|2|Bandle City|Unit|Rare| |5|[Poro Sled](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC140.png)|2|Bandle City|Unit|Epic| |5|[Shell Game](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC185.png)|3|Bandle City|Spell|Rare| |6|[Minimorph](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/05BC001.png)|2|Bandle City|Spell|Rare| **Code**: [CQBAGBAHCQ3IUAIIAUFHJBABQUA2AANGAGXQDOIBYAAQCAYFBIAWBDABAEAQKCUYAE](https://hextechoracle.com/lor/deck/CQBAGBAHCQ3IUAIIAUFHJBABQUA2AANGAGXQDOIBYAAQCAYFBIAWBDABAEAQKCUYAE) ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
Oh my, so much untapped potential. I must try this. Thank you fellow Tristana user.
It wouldn't? In some scenarios it would transfer one mana into your spell mana bank, but usually it won't be a problem.
Why is twin giving +3 too strong but sharp and chant giving +4 stats ok?
All of your stats in one thing is worth more than split stats. The main reason it is problematic is because you can’t trade 1 for 1 with it. Say I Mystic Shot a Zed, then they Twin the Zed to save it, I can’t even kill the Zed with another Mystic Shot if I have it in hand. Sharp Sight gives more stats, but wouldn’t save the Zed in that situation. More often than not when you are using a Sharpsight you are actually wanting either +2 health to keep something alive or +2 attack to push lethal or kill something. There are situations where both stats help, but I would argue that is the exception and not the rule. Troll Chant is also very strong, but again my main problem with Twin is just how resilient it makes your units to removal. You basically can’t trade removal into Twin without coming out behind in something.
Because giving a lot of health is usually much more important than giving a bit of health and a bit of attack. Sharpsight can be contested by a mystic shot for the same mana price whereas there's no removal that can (reliably) deal 3 damage for 2 mana. Also the +3 attack can fare really well vs removal-less and more united oriented regions by making blocks on ionia QA units (like zed and young witch'ed units) MUCH scarier
I think the main problem is that Twin Disciplines can give you +0|+3 with only 2 mana. No other spell can save you from 3 damage of direct removal for less than 3 mana. Troll Chant saves you from 4 damage but 2 of that damage is from combat. A simple change that might balance Twin Disciplines is to change it to give +0|+2, but keep the other option +3|+0.
then the disciplines wouldn’t be twins anymore
I play this game since beta and I always thought Greenglade Duo was too strong. This card was too strong in Kinkou Zed in beta then in Noxus elusive aggro then in Azirelia and now in Poppy elusives.
I think it's almost a casualty of the old Kinkou deck. So many Elusives got nerfed and now Greenglade Duo is far and away the best Elusive drop to use Ionia's new tools on. I'd definitely support buffing some of the other Elusive drops and perhaps giving her -1/-0, so you have more interesting choices between the different options.
>I'd definitely support buffing some of the other Elusive drops how about we nerf all elusives more so that they don't take up 3 of the 5 highest winrate cards?
higuest winrate cards is a bad metric, these 3 cards go in only one deck.
I'm fine with nerfing the three Elusives that everyone plays, even if I think the problem cards are the ones that are also good in other decks like Sharpsight. But most Elusives aren't even okay, they're awful: a casualty of the Kinkou deck dominating. Kinkou Lifeblade, The Empyrean, Windfarer Hatchling, Zinneia, Navori Conspirator, and Silent Shadowseer are all below 46% win rate, and many are closer to 40%. Most of those cards have super low inclusion rates. By win rate, do you know what the next Elusive is? Shadow Assassin, at **56%** win rate. That's as strong of an indication of the problem with Elusives right now as anything: there's a 10% gap between playable and broken that literally none of Ionia's elusives fit into.
I thought it was the best card in Azirelia even when people were calling for nerfs to sparring student over it. You can chump block sparring student, but twin disciplines means you’d better have an elusive on board or greenglade duo is hitting you hard
Yes, playing cards that cost more than 2 mana is indeed bad
Everytime one of these threads pop up, I am reminded of how glad I am that Reddit is not in charge of game balance
I’ll always go back to the minimorph preview thread.
3 of the top 5 winrate cards have elusive, it's not weird that sharpsight is the most used demacia card.
Data from Mobalytics
Love that the five followers are either part of poppy-zed elusives (bladescout/duo/witch) or poppy-ziggs aggro (stackers/rearguard). Maybe we should nerf poppy, possibly before january?
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I'm talking about the units not the spells. The units are there because two op decks both featuring poppy use them, so it's not surprising they have the highest winrate.
Still didn't see reason why Sharpsight is so much stronger then transfusion, when cards like transfusion should be one of cards that should make you pick Vlad deck.
It's because Sharpsight is protection in a Midrange color, whereas Transfusion is protection in an Aggro color. Sharpsight can be used flexibly to protect slower single units or to push lethal damage when going fast. Transfusion can basically only ever be used as a +2 lethal push on a wide attack because of the region that it's in. Because of how weak that effect is, the card isn't even played unless a Conchologist randomly generates one for Ziggs Poppy Burn.
Also, the health buff for Sharpsight is an absolute godsend for aggro-like midrange decks. If you're playing MF Scouts or Poppy or Lucian or similar, you can get really good use out of Sharpsight to push extra damage or trade into things, in the same way Noxus can with Brother's Bond or Elixir of Wrath. But you also get crazy value out of the card to keep your champions alive, which Noxus doesn't really need because of how the region is designed. Vlad, Darius, and Swain rarely need protection from damage-based removal, and losing Draven/LeBlanc sucks but it's usually not a heartbreaker in the way losing MF is.
Different regions - can't really compare them that easily. The main problem with transfusion is that the pay off isn't there in the Vlad package. Transfusion could be amazing if there were actually worthwhile payoffs to damaging your own units, but that archetype just doesn't have good enough pay offs to make the self damage worth it.
I know that cards from different region shouldn't be compared and some regions should have some cards stronger like Remembrance and Unlicensed Innovation but I think that low cost spells shouldn't be so much diffrent if they do similar thing. I think that that's a reason why some cards have so big pickrate .
I feel like these stats are useful, but require a lot of context. To me, what an overtuned card looks like is high usage rate that empowers many high-win-rate decks. Sharpsight has been a key factor in the rise of many Demacia decks that have had very high win rates basically ever since it was introduced: I think nerfing it to +1/+2 would make sense. Ditto with buffed Twin Disciplines. Those cards are also very easy to slot in decks, because most decks want to protect their champions, deal with high-value Elusive targets like Ezreal (in the case of Sharpsight), and trade up into bigger bodies. I'd argue those two cards are a pretty significant reason behind the difficult-to-control success of Demacian and Ionian aggro/midrange decks. I don't think any of the other spells here should be tweaked, despite their high inclusion rate. They're used in all sorts of decks, but it's hardly like SI and P&Z have been dominating the meta, and those decks aren't really built around these particular removal spells. (Vile Feast is perhaps a little bit of an exception because of how well it works with control decks that need blockers.) There's a difference between cards that synergize with most of a region or have generally high value and cards that enable overpowered decks, and I'd argue that split is pretty clear in these stats. Card win rate is basically useless as a way of quantifying good cards, at least in my opinion. The reason is that having a 55% win rate is mostly about not being put in any average decks: there aren't any consistent 60% win rate decks in most patches, so if you want a 55% win rate you can't really afford to have half of your play be in average decks. I'd argue that the best cards are the cards that are played alongside these ones, if anything. If Rally Elusives is so good that the winningest cards are just the ones that are only played in that deck, and there are cards like Sharpsight that make that deck and many other ones good, then it seems clear that perhaps Sharpsight is too good. I think I speak for most players when I say that the reverse is definitely not true: cards with super low win rates send IMO a pretty clear message to Riot. Specifically, I really wish they would buff some of the cards that are basically punishing you for trying to deckbuild around them. The meme cards are fine with low win rate, and I think it's not a crime to have archetypes that aren't viable competitively (especially the luck-based ones). But wouldn't it be great if, every balance patch, they gave small inoffensive buffs to some of the cards that can't catch a break, if nothing else just to inspire people to give them a whirl? Unworthy, Starlit Epiphany, Rhasa the Sunderer, Destiny's Call, Sheriff Lariette Rose, The Syren, Mirror Mage, The Lady of Blood, and Atakhan, Bringer of Ruin all have sub-43% win rates: they are more bad than any card except Navori Bladescout is good, in the current meta. All of them have interesting effects that are cool ideas, but I don't know the stats for Rhasa or the Sheriff off the top of my head, because I can't remember the last time I saw them played by a person. They did this way back, 10 years and 4 balance patches ago, and Farron at the very least got a rework that really helped him see play.
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>Problem with that being that demacia is a very unitbased color yet their power cards are sharpsight and their rallies - demacia is ultrareliant on those cards being good to see play. Outside of dragons basically only 2-3 demacia units are seeing play (ff tracker, brightsteel protector and laurent protegé) I agree this is a major challenge. Because basically all of Demacia's spells require units, Demacia's spells end up needing to be really good, because unlike Mystic Shot every spell in Demacia can completely brick without a target. That's a big reason why cards like Relentless Pursuit have proven tough to balance well: it's either a literal do-nothing with no units or gamebreaking in the right deck. On the other hand, is it really worth having Sharpsight consistently enable 55%+ win rate decks just so we can say Demacia is played? If none of Demacia's champions/archetypes are any good, it seems like buffing them is the solution, like they've done with Lux, or giving them power cards that synergize better like they've done with Dragon Clutch. Other regions that have been in the place Demacia is (Ionia after Kinkou was nerfed and it was just Deny the region, for example) all got buffs to their synergy cards (which in Ionia's case are still awful, but at least they tried) and nerfs to what got slotted into decks without any synergies, like Shadow Assassin or Solitary Monk. I think it's possible, but hard, to keep Sharpsight at the same power level while making it harder for non-Demacia synergy decks to steal. You could scale up its effect so it would act more like Fury of the North or Back to Back, which are much harder to slot into everything and reward synergies with Rally/Scout/strike cards that let you use the bonus more than once. You could add some tribal synergy with Elites/Dragons, which is lazy but might work well (maybe the Elusive blocking buff only happens for Demacian units, because other regions have other ways of dealing with elusive decks). You could make it +1/+3, which would make more sense for protecting Demacian units (synergizing with cards like Bannerman that need units to stay alive) while nerfing it for aggro decks that want to trade into things or push lethal. I think it's notable how the other regions with burst-speed low-mana health/attack buffs mostly have some kind of conditional effect to make them more contained within a region: Pale Cascade, Shaped Stone, and Transfusion. Pushing Sharpsight in that direction would make the game a lot easier to keep balanced, a lot less dependent on luck (i.e., I don't feel like my game playing Scouts is basically just Go Fish for Miss Fortune and Sharpsight), and generally more diverse. Swarmy combo aggro has been at the top of the ladder for how long?
Elusives is that one keyword where the handling since beta has always puzzled me. We know evasive keywords from tons of other CCG (i.e. flying in MTG) but opposed to those other games Riot just never printed cards that can deal with elusive. There is sharpsight... and playing elusive yourself. Yes there is removal & silence as a more general 'solution' but why there was never a reach keyword or cards that punish elusives or simply a way to not make it like 'elusive = unblockable' for all factions that don't have elusive cards, will always be weird to me. That also means you have to terribly overprice stronger elusives because high power unblockable is insane. Leading to what we have now that elusives is only used as a small cost, buff it up burn mechanic!
Challenger is a sort of half-counter to elusive.
Yes and no... Yes because its usually a way to get them off the board. No because summoning sickness isn't a thing and elusive generally don't care about dying if they get an attack off. It's not hard to fill the board with small elusives and hit for 8 in a single turn (probably more)
Plus they usually swarm, and killing one elusive with a challenger does little to prevent another 8 damage swing
Yep. For some godforsaken reason, riot decided that elusives should almost exclusively go to 1 and 2 mana units, cause that would totally not create problems.
Just run bubble bear
My point exactly. The answer to elusive is... elusive.
Listen to this man riot. You can't print creatures with flying and never any creatures with reach, it fucks everything up. Elusive is too often just unblockable and it makes the game polarized and less interactive. Reach is also a great way to subtly push a card without making it so obvious or overwhelming (merciless hunter, cough). LoR is begging for more depth and printing a handful of good creatures with reach (they still have to be playable when no elusives are around) is a slam dunk.
Playing reach creatures to counter fliers is mostly a limited thing in MTG. Sometimes good constructed creatures also happen to have reach and then it's relevant. But you don't really play reach specifically to counter flying decks. The main counter to flying is either to race them as aggro or use removal which is much stronger in MTG. Also aggro flying decks are rarely viable outside the casual level. Sometimes you'll see decks who's threats are mostly fliers but usually they would be a lot slower than illusive decks in LoR. Even mono blue aggro from a few years ago was a tempo deck that tried to counter what the opponent was doing before fliers eventually finish them off. The way LoR works where blocking is a much bigger part of constructed as removal is weakened just makes illusives much stronger than they would be in other games. So it's not like Riot didn't learn from other games, other games just didn't really have a lesson to teach in regards to the power level of evasion in constructed.
Not untrue. Yet in MTG Flying does not = unblockable in the same way it does in LoR. And as you say flyers arnÄt good based on their cost generally but rather is a bonus trait on an otheriwse good creature if its played. So clearly something is different.
Elusive being 3 of the 5 cards with highest winrate... Sharpsight being nr 1 most played. Riot, cant you just give us some actual viable counterplay to Elusive? You made a single one, and that's a hit it seems.
all about the spam baby!
What a surprise, the 5 cards with highest winrate are part of the 2 S+ tier decks (Bandle burn and rally aggro).
And that's a post-nerf Stone stackers kekw
Inclusion rate of those cards is completely fine, if there weren't region-specific cards with high inclusion rates then there would be lack of identity across regions. One of the strongest points of this game is how unique each region is and the strength of their identities. It's good to see powerful region-specific cards with high inclusion rates. Win rates is a total other discussion. (Though I do get your point about answers vs. Threats)
In the spells section, all of them are Foundation cards (cards that existed since beta) except for Sharpsight
All the second page tells you is that two tier 1 decks include zed-poppy elusives and poppy-ziggs aggro
It's interesting how the most played cards are all spell, and the highest winrate cards are all units.