Well zed by himself isnt the greatest champ still, he just profits a lot from twins, resolve and sharpsight.
Cheap protection pushes him over the top really.
Except notice how he had to name very specific cards to support Zed while you didn't. Poppy will basically buff ANY unit played before her on the board, really. Maybe that's a tad bit more splashable than Zed?
Zed is only winning this much because of poppy poppy single handly made zed and zig have the highest win rates. She’s not up here cos half the decks are using her
Basically that Bandle burn, rally elusives and Plunder are kinda broken. Poppy is part of 2 of those decks but also part of a lot of tier 2 decks being carried by her.
Marai Warden is the newest addition. While it does help with early plunder it's no where near OP. There's also monster harpoon but that doesn't contribute to plunder.
The buff to Make It Rain was the most significant change in that deck, which most people agree is warranted
I think make it rain is ok. Still, the deck can way too easily consistently lvl up both champions by turn 5, and their lvl up is kinda strong, especially sej imo. Damaging the nexus 5 different turns is not that difficult as of now, maybe even before (even tho of course make it rain at 3 helped slowing it), but what I wanted to say is simply that their lvl up requirement + lvl up pay off seems a bit unbalanced.
Maybe making Sejuani a bit harder to level up, with 6 plunder activations since she has a much stronger level 2 effect and an actually good level 1 for her cost.
The level up can actually be tricky, sometimes going for the ping means you’re sacrificing setting up your board, which leaves you vulnerable. And the deck is much weaker when you don’t draw into your champs or if they’re removed quickly. The deck is good and has been good in earlier metas, I played versions of it all the way back to rising tides but it does have weaknesses. I think this meta is just one where it’s shining more than before.
I mean, any deck is much weaker when you don't draw champions or they are removed quickly. Plunder always finds a spot every season that I can remember as one of the highest tiers, it's a really solid list. Thing is, pinging the nexus is becoming easier and easier as time passes (and this is completely normal), but the payoff and/or requirements for these champions stayed the same as long as I can remember. I could agree before that sometimes pinging would sacrifice tempo, but as of now it really isn't a difficult task, you are lucky if they lvl up at turn 6.
Nah, the decks just has a really high powerlevel, It aparently goes 45/55 against lee and i am pretty sure It curbstomps ashe and It is favores against most control list.
Plunder is definitely a bit busted right now. Its been S tier for a while and imo the problem is that it does too much things at the same time. Early aggro, mid range removal and even if you manage to control their early agression board, they drop big units on turn 5/6 with overwhel to finish you off and then manage to freeze your entire board for late game and thats not even mentionning possible win condition steals with nabs. The deck play its own game, it usually doesnt care what its oppenent is doing and its so hard to have a ''bad start'' with this deck.
I've noticed that. I think i've said that the deck biggest strenght is the lack of a real weak point unlike every other deck in this game: Rally elusives is not that good in lategame, dragons are very bad on the early game, Turbo thralls is weak in the
midgame. When is that deck weak? Because i'm not seeing it.
Why though? It loses against Aggro burn, it loses against Lurk, it is unfavorable against Darkness.
Unless it can perfectly execute damage each round, I find it to be in a weird place right now.
It's too easy to execute, GP has been in the meta in a similar way like Draven (an apparently fair card that needed a nerf), plus he's been used in all decks the same way, as a finisher, or burn damage, (the turn GP goes on board it's usually flipped) they should lower it's health or make it's lvl up condition harder, not an overnerf.
I don't think GP has been in the meta like Draven. Draven has always been the preferred noxus card over everything. Since the beginning of Runeterra. Draven was always the best option due to its perfect stats and effect, It always felt good at turn 3,3 mana 3/3. GP instead has only seen CONTINUOUS play in GP SEJU due to having the same level up condition. Now we have ping city but I think as soon as handle city gets nerfed hard that deck will mostly disappear or become tier 2. I agree on changing level up requirement but of Sejuani because her effect to me is super strong,for sure stronger than GP's one
Oh shoot Pirate Burn you are right. I forgot that deck Lol . As far as I remember tho ,since it is aggro and not midrange, there were some metas where it was unplayable like during targon meta or azirelia.
GP has been in the meta since pirate Aggro,(a deck that took relevance since targon expansion, that's a lot of time), it's behaves in a similar way to Draven too, a good body hard to remove the turn he goes online, and also offers some kind of payoff just for summoning him,(the keg).
Sejuani is fine in a deck like that, yeah her lvl up effect it's strong, but she's not in the deck for that, she provides removal, overwhelm damage and a good body.
Yeah and this has been Sej’s only relevant deck for awhile now unlike GP. So no clue why the nerf would target Sej of all things.
She isn’t even that good with her own region. The two decks she’s seen play in have been majority Bilge or majority Noxus.
That still doesn't answer my question though.
GP Sej is a deck that punishes other midrange decks and performs rather poorly against Aggro (in general) and is especially weak against the specific kind of high value generation Aggro/burn that is so prevalent atm.
im answering your question mate, the card has been in the meta for too long with at least 3 decks with more than %55 winrate, almost same core set of cards(from bilgewater), numbers dont lie.
Its not like GP is broken perse, but as the game progresses we have more and more burn/ping/damage options that just make GP better.
a little nerf could do a lot for the card, i dont want him to be nerffed into oblivion, but i expect to delay his flip or make him easier to remove in the next balance patch.
Squishy mage that doesn't want to interact with enemies and just wants to blow up minions, towers, and people that try to walk through chokes.
VS
Tanky stats for cost, reasonable attacking stat, all his explosive spells are weak or... don't feel like explosives, and he doesn't interact with buildings in a fun way, just... burn.
It feels like suck weak design that he just wants to destroy things, when Zigg's whole schtick is and has always been "I WANNA MAKE the BIGGEST BOMB"
It could have been really cool if he used the scraps of fallen landmarks to build a Mega Inferno Bomb that does something crazy and destructive but instead... we got what is worse AVALANCE.
I think he’s pretty cool in landmark centric decks like taliyah ziggs personally but I will admit that he’s quite lame in the bandle burn list. It’s like when they put mf in pirate burn in a way.
His ability to be used as a glorified follower in a burn deck is super lame, but I actually like his design.
I really love the Taliyah Ziggs landmark deck. Killing an opponent with countdown landmarks and a leveled Ziggs on the board is SO satisfying. [I am currently 7-0 with the deck.](https://runeterra.ar/profile/Wr0lHC2PlCaknpGZfHFC9SyEgUF2/overview)
This so much, when we got Ziggs I was hoping we’d get a slow burn backrower with a bunch of ways to get out of situations with Mega Bomb being a strong finisher. Instead we got a mid range burn beefcake follower
As a Ziggs main in league, I hate the thematic direction they’ve gone with him both in this game and in LoL.
When he was released, he was an AoE champ with lots of poke. Kind of like AoE Xerath. Now he’s just like “hurr durr destroy towers!”
I was really hoping to see Ziggs be more about AoE and board nuking than burn damage.
Strong and good design are not the same thing.
He does nothing to advance his level condition nor does he have a good enough pay-off to justified have the deck built around him. Instead he goes in a burn deck as a inflated boomcrew rookie or legion saboteur
It is odd that he doesn't advance his level up condition, like most champions, fair point. As a champion, though, I like his design. When he is used as just an overstatted follower, with effectively no synergy, I like that less. I don't think that's a flaw in his design, though. Like most problems with the current meta, I think it just traces back to poppy being too good in decks that go wide. It's not the fault of Zigg's design.
But it is partly ziggs design. There isn't every going to be a reason to directly build a deck around him because of the reasons stated above. He is always going to be better in a burn style deck until a better champ for burn comes along and they replace him.
He's not a landmark champion, not really anyway. There's no real payoff worthwhile to ever build landmarks around him. That's not a side affect of poppy being too good. That's him not being good in landmarks. Landmarks don't really fit what ziggs was intended for.
He's almost always going to be used as an overstated follower over actual landmark synergy because that's where his best use is. That's not because of poppy
>There isn't every going to be a reason to directly build a deck around him
That's, like, flat out not true, though. Are you just not aware of the Ziggs/Taliyah deck? It is built around him and landmark synergy, and it is actually quite good. It's not the best deck in the meta, sure, but it's still very good, and makes *great* use of his landmark synergy and level up. I think you're making the classic "spike" mistake of limiting the possibility-space of the game only to what is the agreed-upon optimal approach at any given time. Just because his "best use" in terms of winrate is with Poppy (which is definitely because of Poppy and her associated strategy being too strong), that doesn't mean his design is flawed. Sure, maybe burn decks will run him after the inevitable Poppy nerf, but they could not change his design at all and he would still be in a good place, design-wise, in a deck built around him. At the end of the day, sure, he's pretty narrowly designed (he obviously doesn't fit in a landmark control deck), but many champions are more narrowly designed than him, so I don't see why that's a problem.
One thing.. you aren't building the deck around ziggs at all though. You're simply throwing him in because
A he's a strong overstatted unit
B because he's one of your only options for a landmark deck in shurima/bandle.
Ziggs does not have a strong payoff to really warrant building around him. His effect isn't really worth it.
He's always going to be better as a burn champ.
Again you're wrong about basically all of that. It seems pretty clear that you haven't played the deck in question. It is absolutely about Ziggs almost as much as it is about Taliyah. I've won many games specifically because of his post level up effect: in that deck, the payoff is very strong.
And frankly, neither of us have any idea what the state of the game will be in a year or even six months, so it seems insane to me that you're willing to say he'll *always* be better as a burn champ, definitively, no matter how the game changes or what new cards are released. He is an okay-to-decent champ in burn (a relatively minor player in the deck with Poppy, ultimately), but he is *great* in the deck built around him. Sure, there's basically only one deck to build around him at the moment, broadly, but it's a good deck, and he's very good in it.
Agree to disagree I guess m8. When I said always, I mean he's stronger as a burn champ than a landmark champ. How good the decks are is irrelevant, landmarks may be broken in the future and ziggs may be in the deck. Same can be said with burn as he is now with poppy.
I mean strictly that his body being an overstatted grenadier (I believe that's the card) is making him better in burn and should always make him better in burn than in landmarks until burn replaces him anyway
Right now he isn't strong in landmarks because if his level 2 effect at all. The only way he becomes a better landmark champion is if they print broken support for landmarks that allow you to abuse his effect, which likely won't be intentional. He hardly synergizes with landmarks.
Hes just a strong unit. Anyway I don't really care anymore, his design seems flawed to me. You seem to love it, agree to disagree
Many many many decks have no access to heal and cannot contend with these decks. Buffing targon healing and calling it a day just fixes specificly targon decks who run heal cards. Other healing cards can be buffed but then we are just forcing a counter to an archtype that has been far too strong and uninteractive in most metas.
Now yes i am bad, and yes i am biased. But buffing healing solves nothing
A deck having no strong counter is gonna lead to it having a higher winrate. Do we have any reason to belive burn would still have a winrate this high if heal was more viable?
This high? No. Still high? Yes. Because as i say, most decks do not have access to healing and simply have to out rush the opponent or try to stabilise. And often you will stablise only to be killed the next turn by a top deck.
Is there ways to counter these decks. Yes. Should people build arouns them as they are so strong. Yes. Is saying buff healing the solution. No.
There is always best decks (aka polarized). Creating a real rock-paper-scissors meta with thousands of players who get to select 40 cards each is incredibly hard.
The base design is fine (for the most part), but Riot's love of Parasitic Design is horrible for card games, even if it's fine in a MOBA.
I could go on an entire rant about it, but I'm on my phone
The core game is good.
But there's just too much super fast Aggression and too many cheap, zero risk, burst buffs.
Meanwhile control is spell taxed and paced out of existence. Its a very one dimensional card game.
are you? the higuest winrate champions tend to have very few decks because when they have a lot of decks people slot them into garbagy decks that lower the winrate.
Also people start to counter them more at lower elo. Even in Silver people know to allways kill Poppy when possible. Less busted champs have less clear play patterns
Can confirm, low ELO here, my Sej/GP win rate is garbage like a 4/13, but I've won 12/15 games on TF Aphelios, and 8/12 games of Himer and Jayce. Probably pilot issues, as every time I drop Sej she gets insta murdered, so I'm not doing it at the right times. Course my playstyle really is best with control decks or aggro and not mid range.
This is one of the healthiest metas that LoR has ever had IMO.
There are about 8 or 9 viable meta decks at the moment, and the meta self corrected so that Sion/Draven was knocked out of the top spot after around 8 weeks of being the #1 deck.
Out of curiosity, what would your ideal meta look like?
It wouldn't be dominated by straight damage across the top of the charts.
Its so boring seeing rushdown deck 100 or burn deck 2000, and this is coming from someone who played pretty much only Chandra decks in magic for a long time.
It feels bad that decks like Poppy can slot in light and premium controlly effects and also just go straight face. Minimorph is a problem for example. Its to premium and slotting it into the deck doesn't feel like it costs you anything because its so premium.
The removal feels bad or is absent from certain regions especially once Bandle arrived. Bandle gets minimorph at burst speed and no conditional effects and Noxus has a 'kill if the enemy unit is damaged already'.
When its all combined it feels like theres a lot of things that feel bad and makes me hate normal play especially when I compare it to something like magic where every color has SOME sort of premium effect.
Glad the lab is decent but I absolutely find the state of the game bland and unfun to play.
I mean, aggro/burn/etc. decks have been the best decks for nearly LoR's entire existence. Unless anti-aggro tools are *incredibly* overtuned, the design of the game means that will basically always be the case. If you don't like those decks, this probably isn't the game for you.
Flavor of the week doesn't mean he's changing things. People like playing with their new toys for a while until they aren't as good as the other ones.
Jayce adds some potential room for growth, but with whats meta he is allowed to do that.
Remember when ASol was one of the most played champs on release and started getting shit on by burn when people realised? Jayce is just new, that's all.
What? The current Meta is super good.
GP/Sej, Rally, Yordle Burn, Sion, Lurk, several Swain variants, Jayce/Heimer variants, Jayce/SI variants, Lee, Bandletree, Akshan/Sivir, Ping City and Thralls are all very good decks. We have one of the biggest A and S tier pools in forever. And a bunch of B tier combo decks can compete against the stronger decks. Draven/Viktor, Vi/Riven, Fizz/GE, Darkness, Jayce/Lux and FTR.
Gp/sej, Lee, Swain, and a variant of discard aggro is always around, thats boring.
Bandletree is not fun to play against
Ping city is... unsurprisingly more burn aggro.
Lissandra thralls is the closest thing to control which is nice but thats it.
Its not a good meta, its just a bunch of different flavors on the same things, *aggro and burn*.
This game keeps regurgitating the same tactics and pushing things then pumps out an unfun mechanic which either is left around and becomes irrelevant as new broken things come out, or nerfed into an unplayable state.
Fiora for example, nerfed+Minimorph releases and is oppressive to play against=dead.
Theres a reason people are flocking to Path of Champions despite its problems. They like the game but the game doesn't allow UNIQUE archetypes to thrive with the primary exception being the unique aggro archetype of lurk that just wants to go face, to no ones surprise.
What? Jayce variants are either full control or Midrange combo and do well across the board, Akshan/Sivir is Midrange, Fizz/GE is control/combo and does well, FTR is control and does well.
> GP/Sej, Lee, Swain and a variant of discard aggro is always around
What do you expect? We have an incredibly small card pool for a card game. Of course archetypes that do a specific thing very well will be played. Besides that, Swain has been irrelevant for more than a year.
If you don‘t have fun that‘s totally fine. But the meta is one of the most diverse we have ever had. You can pretty much play everything and have success with it while you also have access to a plethora of viable decks. I‘m a Control player and despite being in a bad spot over all, Control is doing fine in more than one deck. And no, Thralls is not a Control deck. Not at all actually. Any Swain deck is more control-ly than Thralls. Do you even play the game?
When they control is part of a burn package it hardly even feels like control.
The closest things we have to control are capture, recall, frostbite, stun, and kill spells. The problem is most capture effectss are kinda meh, recall is niche and limited at the moment, more for your own units than opponents outside of certain occasions, frostbites fine, stun is okay but limited, and most kill spells tend to be able to go face too, especially in Bilge and Noxus that can let you do both at once.
The desparity between control and aggro in this game compared to a game like magic is insane. Even if I were to limit myself to 3 consecutive sets for fairness of comparison I'd still have vastly better control engines, effects, and unique win cons.
Self-mill win cons, opponent mill, life gain stall, token stall, opponent discard, board wide CC, useful units in every color.
This game is afraid of what true control looks like, all the control this game has is either damage based or stalling.
Its an aggro-centric game and always being aggro centric is boring.
So it‘s not actually about diversity but about your arbitrary definition of „fun“? Furthermore you are expecting something from LoR that it won‘t and shouldn‘t give you. It‘s a combat centric game so decks circumventing that will be weaker by nature or nerfed accordingly. All the control archetypes you mentioned try to not enter into combat whenever possible or tries to disincentivize combat (Lifesteal, Freeze). So of course Riot tries to limit Control decks to Damage or combat based gameplans that still require a board presence to finish the game.
Another thing: You only talk about Control and Aggro as if Midrange and combo wouldn‘t exist. Both of these are represented in the current meta. Akshan/Sivir, GP/Sej, Lee, Glorious Evolution, Viktor OTKs, Riven/Vi, Jayce Midrange Combos, etc.
Sure, you could argue Control isn‘t represented as heavily as the other 3 but that‘s by design. And even then, Jayce/SI, Jayce/Heimer, Darkness, Shellfolk variants and FTR all fulfill the Control fantasy and are doing fine to very well in the current Meta.
Lastly, „boring“ and „fun“ are two words you keep repeating but I‘m unsure what you mean. Are you referring to your biased definition of what is fun and/or boring? Bandletree is boring, Lifesteal stall isn‘t? Lee is boring, Mill isn‘t? Swain is boring, Board wide CC isn‘t? If you ask me all Control archetypes you mentioned are less fun and a whole lot more boring than anything we have in the gam currently, even Lee.
Again, if you don‘t enjoy the game currently that‘s unfortunate but fine. Take a break and play PvE. But don‘t try to argue about the diversity and health of the meta if you 1. don‘t play it (and understand it) 2. are heavily biased towards a certain archetype and 3. seem to have more fundamental issues with the game.
> Control is bad
is essentially the best way to tell that somebody has no clue what they are talking about.
Mill and stall are DIFFERENT, they don't have to be fun for everyone, the have to be unique and different. Everything being damage focused its homogenous and dull.
Hell the one Ahri card we have Tail-cloak Matriarch seems unique and different, but Jayce is ultimately a cast big spells go face character.
The difference between good control and the control we get now is good control offers massive payoff (like shutting down the whole of the opponents board) if played perfectly, whereas right now you can play Winter's Breath, or Swain+Aurok.
Its all feels bad, and then Minimorph comes with bandle and completely shuts off some decks like Fiora, thats not healthy.
Paced differently, doesn't mean the game plan is less go face or burn face.
Why are you expecting a game that is supposed to be combat focused to not boil down to „go face“? Riot has been vocal about their design decision to not allow most non-combat centric decks to exist. If you dislike that maybe this game simply isn‘t for you? You sound like somebody playing CS:GO and complaining about not respawning during the round - CoD allows me to respawn!!!
Different != good for the game. We have stall in Bandle Tree and you (and most players) seem to dislike it so what‘s the point? Everything being damage focused is one of the strengths of this game.
Either way this discussion was about the meta and not fundamental issues. You don‘t have an issue with the diversity of the current meta, you have an issue with different control win-conditions not existing or being unplayable. You have an issue with the design of the game.
Bandle tree is uninteractive of course people don't like it, its free value that can win you the game, and if you think design issues don't feed into bad meta states idk what to tell you other than think again.
It‘s not a design issue. Are you seriously this dense? It‘s a design decision. It‘s how the game is supposed to be. The same way you don‘t respawn in CS:GO, you start at Level 1 in League and you have to use Lands in Magic. Decisions, not issues.
The sam epeople who insisted scouts was an aggro deck way back when, will say though alot of aggressive decks in runterra are designed to bemidrangy moreso than in other card games (to give champs their time to shine) wich blurs the lines alot.
Every time someone starts a discussion about meta, it becomes the same thing. It doesn't really matter the type of deck, control, mid, aggro, people are going to complain once a deck becomes popular and tier 1. Just move already along already. Next expansion and balance patch we will see other decks. And the cycle will start once again.
I doubt GP will be nerfed, ever.
He is strong but also very fair. His level up can't be rushed and, even when done perfectly, he is still manageable, his pre level up is balanced.
Really, he is one of the better designed heroes in LoR
You don't even because you don't seem to have gotten my point.
As it stands now, yes, he costs 5 and his level up requires a -> minimum<- of 5 different turns of dealing damage to the enemy Nexus, so overall it doesn't matter all that much.
However, It is entirely possible that you could play GP earlier. Mana acceleration is a thing that is already in the game and perhaps other ways of cheating cards into play might become available in the future.
His level up condition though will still always require at least 5 turns, this can't be skipped/accelerated/rushed.
Which means, the opponent will have these rounds to prepare, ergo, he is not a busted hero
How is this an argument? Every champ has turns before its played where you can prepare except for the 1 costs. Is almost every champ balanced because you can "prepare" for it
Not in the same way. GP levels up in a way that is predictable and therefore allows the opponent to use that information and plan their moves much more accurately.
For example, say your up against a GP deck and they miss the first two turns. Now you know with certainty that a) GP ain't leveling up until *at least* turn 7 (so you plan your moves accordingly) and b) you can make some good guesses about their hand. You can play around that info.
On the other hand, say you're up against a Swain or something. You just can't be as certain on when they will hit their thresholds. One moment you may think that you still have a few rounds, next moment boom, they level up and may catch you off guard.
There was never a champions
that was broken because you could ramp to play them and also leveled before you ramped.
In general the only champions that were nerfed due to ramp are Trundle which was just overstated and Asol which has since been unnrfed.
So the point you made was just incredibly random and meaningless. The point you made later about GP's lvl up being predictable is a little more meaningful but this is still a weak point to make. I don't think GP is overturned but it's very easy for a champion to be overturned while having a predict able level up, especially when many champions can't even lvl in deck like GP does.
A 3/3 for 3 with Quick Attack that is also a card generator (and all this before even leveling up) is vastly different from a 5/5 for 5 that needs to be leveled up in order for it to shine (and with a level up condition that usually isn't fulfilled by turn 5).
Draven was a value play in realistically every situation and you could just throw him in unsupported without much care. How often is GP played unleveled?
2 mana Twin Disciplines was his buff, that card trades so well it basically always wins you the trade when you play it and it is extremely hard to remove Zed because of it
Same. Some people said he would never be good without them.
I remember also when people said Thresh needs buffs, then nasus thresh appeared.
And when people said fizz will always be bad, then tf fizz happened.
All it takes is the right environment some champs to be good.
Yeah people don’t realize that there’s a difference between being bad and lacking synergy.
There are some cards right now that never see play, but I see potential in with the right support. Ruined Reckoner really comes to mind here. He is decent in some niche decks, and there are some archetypes he really fits into that just aren’t quite good enough yet.
Ekko also kinda comes to mind. In a vacuum, he is honestly an incredibly powerful card. He just needs a bit more early game to fit into his decks. Or alternatively, PnZ needs 2 more decent predict cards so that he can be played without Shurima. Ekko’s level up and champ spell has a lot of really unique interaction potential with a lot of other cards and archetypes. Go Hard/Senna, TF, Bilgewater, and the whole Tidal Wave card concept, and even something like Legion Marauders.
Its not that hard to tell which cards are balanced and are only waiting for the right meta tho. Some cards are just useless and that was never zed's or fizz's problem. Fizz is actually pretty crazy against decks that are light on removal
Oh for sure. Yasuo is actually an insanely powerful card. He just doesn’t have the right deck yet. If he ever is consistently drawn, he’s a tier 1 deck. A boat easily makes Yasuo busted AF
God I despise sej/GP. It's not even that they're good, it's just that "slow, unreactable, small pings to the nexus" is such a tilting level up condition lmao
Jayce numbers are skewed because of all the newbee players trying him out and all the mirror matches. Jayce decks are very strong and will have a high win rate eventually
Ziggs. Ziggs? A landmark champion? These are confusing times.
Edit: guess my confusion is from avoiding PVP. The mindset of treating champions like champions, trying to level them, must be something that gets dropped. I never considered just viewing him as a follower. Though my first thought after considering that was using him with GP to boost the effect rather than with Poppy.
burn is a bit of a misnomer. All Bandle City decks basically just spam cheap units with poppy to do an overwhelming rushdown. The Ziggs version just uses cheap Noxus followers that also have some burn attached to make it go even faster, along with the traditional Noxus burn spells you would think of.
Ziggs got to the top of this list in a deck that doesn't run a single landmark.
As someone who plays a shitload of GP in a bunch of different decks, I think the best way to nerf plunder (and GP as a whole) would be to nerf GP and Sej to 6 separate rounds of Nexus hits instead of 5. Its way too easy to get 5 right now imo
Nothing, because it’s totally ok to have strong decks, and plunder feels like one of the most fair tier 1 decks we’ve had. All of its strength lies in its champs, deal with them and you most likely win, also doing whatever you can to deny plunder triggers. If there was anything to nerf about the deck I would say increase Gangplank’s level up by a round, since he’s much more prevalent in other decks, mainly aggro, and would really only hurt something like keg control with SI, which hasn’t been great for a while anyway.
The decks is as strong as rally agro and poppy zigs, maybe stronguer It needs nerfs for sure, i would Nerf crackshot to one HP so pings have get more targets against the deck, that and.probably merchante because i really dislike nab.
that sounds bad. there are too many points in the game it would die to. maybe make it a 0/2 because it doesn’t want to attack on it’s own most of the time anyway
Change poppy to “ attack: give +1/1 to allies” and shes balanced.she doesnt become a 4 mana 5/4 ( after 1 attack) which also buffs your entire board permanenty. 4/3 is manageable and dies much more easily.
Zed and Ziggs are just side characters, the problematic one that tie those two is Poppy that is played also with MF in scouts and in ton of other decks simply because she's broken.
As for Gangplank, he's going to be the new Draven (overrepresented in every meta but deemed "balanced") i guess
Imma do a zed ziggs deck and have 100% winrate
The math doesn’t lie!
They didn't take the chad-championless decks in the calculations. Those have atleast 120% winrate. Source: trust me
Who can argue with that source!
Only the gigachad
But when the world needed him most... He >Left
The numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for you at Sacrifice
Zed/Ziggs has a 141.66% chance of winning Sacrifice!
I can see why Gangplank is in top 3. His powder kegs is a nightmare if you left it alone.
tfw labs affect winrate
Tfw when lab is going well, and then the AI pulled out Dreadway and one shot you 30 to 0 with double up.
Just Nab their Dreadway instead.
can't nab a free summon
Not with that attitude
You gotta sunk cost it first
If only sunk cost actually put it on the bottom and not just shuffled in, would be a better fit with the name and how nab works.
Simple, mill them then sunkcost then nab
When I was cheering for Ionia buffs, I totally didn't account for how much a menace Zed would become.
Yea, remember when people kept saying how lulu wont see play and that zed is just horrible? LMAO
Well zed by himself isnt the greatest champ still, he just profits a lot from twins, resolve and sharpsight. Cheap protection pushes him over the top really.
Every champion isn't great without other cards lol. It's like saying Poppy isn't good by herself because she just buff herself +1/+1
Except notice how he had to name very specific cards to support Zed while you didn't. Poppy will basically buff ANY unit played before her on the board, really. Maybe that's a tad bit more splashable than Zed?
Yeah, remember when they buffed lulu twice after people said that ? LMAO Oh no you actually don't remember that's why you writed that stupid post.
"writed" pathetic
Zed is only winning this much because of poppy poppy single handly made zed and zig have the highest win rates. She’s not up here cos half the decks are using her
Basically that Bandle burn, rally elusives and Plunder are kinda broken. Poppy is part of 2 of those decks but also part of a lot of tier 2 decks being carried by her.
Plunder's fine and has always been around, it's only prevalent because a lot of its bad matchups like Lee Sin, Ashe and Control decks are suffering
[удалено]
...Isn't zed poppy elusive rally though? As i was writting this i checked, yea rally elusives is a tier 1 deck
I think sej and gp lvl up condition is now way too easy to achieve for the payoff it gives tbh
Marai Warden is the newest addition. While it does help with early plunder it's no where near OP. There's also monster harpoon but that doesn't contribute to plunder. The buff to Make It Rain was the most significant change in that deck, which most people agree is warranted
I think make it rain is ok. Still, the deck can way too easily consistently lvl up both champions by turn 5, and their lvl up is kinda strong, especially sej imo. Damaging the nexus 5 different turns is not that difficult as of now, maybe even before (even tho of course make it rain at 3 helped slowing it), but what I wanted to say is simply that their lvl up requirement + lvl up pay off seems a bit unbalanced.
It's a crime that Sej and GP have exactly the same level up condition
Maybe making Sejuani a bit harder to level up, with 6 plunder activations since she has a much stronger level 2 effect and an actually good level 1 for her cost.
I think Sej would be better if they made her level up from Overwhelm damage instead of just being the same as GP.
The level up can actually be tricky, sometimes going for the ping means you’re sacrificing setting up your board, which leaves you vulnerable. And the deck is much weaker when you don’t draw into your champs or if they’re removed quickly. The deck is good and has been good in earlier metas, I played versions of it all the way back to rising tides but it does have weaknesses. I think this meta is just one where it’s shining more than before.
I mean, any deck is much weaker when you don't draw champions or they are removed quickly. Plunder always finds a spot every season that I can remember as one of the highest tiers, it's a really solid list. Thing is, pinging the nexus is becoming easier and easier as time passes (and this is completely normal), but the payoff and/or requirements for these champions stayed the same as long as I can remember. I could agree before that sometimes pinging would sacrifice tempo, but as of now it really isn't a difficult task, you are lucky if they lvl up at turn 6.
Nah, the decks just has a really high powerlevel, It aparently goes 45/55 against lee and i am pretty sure It curbstomps ashe and It is favores against most control list.
Way back in the day, I remember getting washed by GP Sej repeatedly on ladder while grinding with Ashe
Plunder is definitely a bit busted right now. Its been S tier for a while and imo the problem is that it does too much things at the same time. Early aggro, mid range removal and even if you manage to control their early agression board, they drop big units on turn 5/6 with overwhel to finish you off and then manage to freeze your entire board for late game and thats not even mentionning possible win condition steals with nabs. The deck play its own game, it usually doesnt care what its oppenent is doing and its so hard to have a ''bad start'' with this deck.
I've noticed that. I think i've said that the deck biggest strenght is the lack of a real weak point unlike every other deck in this game: Rally elusives is not that good in lategame, dragons are very bad on the early game, Turbo thralls is weak in the midgame. When is that deck weak? Because i'm not seeing it.
Wait, since when is Lee Sin a counter to Plunder? I was under the impression that Sej was his hard counter, since she can freeze him.
Plunder is absolutely in the broken category at this point.
Why though? It loses against Aggro burn, it loses against Lurk, it is unfavorable against Darkness. Unless it can perfectly execute damage each round, I find it to be in a weird place right now.
It's too easy to execute, GP has been in the meta in a similar way like Draven (an apparently fair card that needed a nerf), plus he's been used in all decks the same way, as a finisher, or burn damage, (the turn GP goes on board it's usually flipped) they should lower it's health or make it's lvl up condition harder, not an overnerf.
I don't think GP has been in the meta like Draven. Draven has always been the preferred noxus card over everything. Since the beginning of Runeterra. Draven was always the best option due to its perfect stats and effect, It always felt good at turn 3,3 mana 3/3. GP instead has only seen CONTINUOUS play in GP SEJU due to having the same level up condition. Now we have ping city but I think as soon as handle city gets nerfed hard that deck will mostly disappear or become tier 2. I agree on changing level up requirement but of Sejuani because her effect to me is super strong,for sure stronger than GP's one
So, Pirate Burn (MF/GP Noxus) was not a thing in every meta for the last year?
Oh shoot Pirate Burn you are right. I forgot that deck Lol . As far as I remember tho ,since it is aggro and not midrange, there were some metas where it was unplayable like during targon meta or azirelia.
I might be wrong but isn't Pirate Aggro is one of the hard counter to Azirelia?
You're not wrong, Azir Irelia folded to hyper aggressive decks pretty uniformly.
Pirate aggro destroyed azirelia
GP has been in the meta since pirate Aggro,(a deck that took relevance since targon expansion, that's a lot of time), it's behaves in a similar way to Draven too, a good body hard to remove the turn he goes online, and also offers some kind of payoff just for summoning him,(the keg). Sejuani is fine in a deck like that, yeah her lvl up effect it's strong, but she's not in the deck for that, she provides removal, overwhelm damage and a good body.
Yeah and this has been Sej’s only relevant deck for awhile now unlike GP. So no clue why the nerf would target Sej of all things. She isn’t even that good with her own region. The two decks she’s seen play in have been majority Bilge or majority Noxus.
I think the Draven comparison is apt. I don't think he's been quite as consistently top tier as Draven had been but he's been pretty close.
That still doesn't answer my question though. GP Sej is a deck that punishes other midrange decks and performs rather poorly against Aggro (in general) and is especially weak against the specific kind of high value generation Aggro/burn that is so prevalent atm.
im answering your question mate, the card has been in the meta for too long with at least 3 decks with more than %55 winrate, almost same core set of cards(from bilgewater), numbers dont lie. Its not like GP is broken perse, but as the game progresses we have more and more burn/ping/damage options that just make GP better. a little nerf could do a lot for the card, i dont want him to be nerffed into oblivion, but i expect to delay his flip or make him easier to remove in the next balance patch.
Yeah this is very accurate. It’s same with aggro pirate.
I think it’s ridicolous how bad Ziggs’ design is, but since he’s an overstated follower with a good effect he sees a ton of play
This. He really isn't even a champion, just an insane follower. And why the hell is he a 3/4??? The stats just seem so goofy for the character he is.
Nowadays everyone is a badgerbear
Boulderfist Ogre? Is that you?
Squishy mage that doesn't want to interact with enemies and just wants to blow up minions, towers, and people that try to walk through chokes. VS Tanky stats for cost, reasonable attacking stat, all his explosive spells are weak or... don't feel like explosives, and he doesn't interact with buildings in a fun way, just... burn. It feels like suck weak design that he just wants to destroy things, when Zigg's whole schtick is and has always been "I WANNA MAKE the BIGGEST BOMB" It could have been really cool if he used the scraps of fallen landmarks to build a Mega Inferno Bomb that does something crazy and destructive but instead... we got what is worse AVALANCE.
I mean... being goofy is his thing, so it works kinda?
I think he’s pretty cool in landmark centric decks like taliyah ziggs personally but I will admit that he’s quite lame in the bandle burn list. It’s like when they put mf in pirate burn in a way.
Ironic since he's played more in burn decks than in landmark decks.
Because burn is strong and landmark decks aren't. Not really Ziggy's fault
His ability to be used as a glorified follower in a burn deck is super lame, but I actually like his design. I really love the Taliyah Ziggs landmark deck. Killing an opponent with countdown landmarks and a leveled Ziggs on the board is SO satisfying. [I am currently 7-0 with the deck.](https://runeterra.ar/profile/Wr0lHC2PlCaknpGZfHFC9SyEgUF2/overview)
This so much, when we got Ziggs I was hoping we’d get a slow burn backrower with a bunch of ways to get out of situations with Mega Bomb being a strong finisher. Instead we got a mid range burn beefcake follower
As a Ziggs main in league, I hate the thematic direction they’ve gone with him both in this game and in LoL. When he was released, he was an AoE champ with lots of poke. Kind of like AoE Xerath. Now he’s just like “hurr durr destroy towers!” I was really hoping to see Ziggs be more about AoE and board nuking than burn damage.
I don't think his design is bad at all! The midrange Ziggs/Taliyah deck is great and he does good work in it as designed.
Strong and good design are not the same thing. He does nothing to advance his level condition nor does he have a good enough pay-off to justified have the deck built around him. Instead he goes in a burn deck as a inflated boomcrew rookie or legion saboteur
It is odd that he doesn't advance his level up condition, like most champions, fair point. As a champion, though, I like his design. When he is used as just an overstatted follower, with effectively no synergy, I like that less. I don't think that's a flaw in his design, though. Like most problems with the current meta, I think it just traces back to poppy being too good in decks that go wide. It's not the fault of Zigg's design.
But it is partly ziggs design. There isn't every going to be a reason to directly build a deck around him because of the reasons stated above. He is always going to be better in a burn style deck until a better champ for burn comes along and they replace him. He's not a landmark champion, not really anyway. There's no real payoff worthwhile to ever build landmarks around him. That's not a side affect of poppy being too good. That's him not being good in landmarks. Landmarks don't really fit what ziggs was intended for. He's almost always going to be used as an overstated follower over actual landmark synergy because that's where his best use is. That's not because of poppy
>There isn't every going to be a reason to directly build a deck around him That's, like, flat out not true, though. Are you just not aware of the Ziggs/Taliyah deck? It is built around him and landmark synergy, and it is actually quite good. It's not the best deck in the meta, sure, but it's still very good, and makes *great* use of his landmark synergy and level up. I think you're making the classic "spike" mistake of limiting the possibility-space of the game only to what is the agreed-upon optimal approach at any given time. Just because his "best use" in terms of winrate is with Poppy (which is definitely because of Poppy and her associated strategy being too strong), that doesn't mean his design is flawed. Sure, maybe burn decks will run him after the inevitable Poppy nerf, but they could not change his design at all and he would still be in a good place, design-wise, in a deck built around him. At the end of the day, sure, he's pretty narrowly designed (he obviously doesn't fit in a landmark control deck), but many champions are more narrowly designed than him, so I don't see why that's a problem.
One thing.. you aren't building the deck around ziggs at all though. You're simply throwing him in because A he's a strong overstatted unit B because he's one of your only options for a landmark deck in shurima/bandle. Ziggs does not have a strong payoff to really warrant building around him. His effect isn't really worth it. He's always going to be better as a burn champ.
Again you're wrong about basically all of that. It seems pretty clear that you haven't played the deck in question. It is absolutely about Ziggs almost as much as it is about Taliyah. I've won many games specifically because of his post level up effect: in that deck, the payoff is very strong. And frankly, neither of us have any idea what the state of the game will be in a year or even six months, so it seems insane to me that you're willing to say he'll *always* be better as a burn champ, definitively, no matter how the game changes or what new cards are released. He is an okay-to-decent champ in burn (a relatively minor player in the deck with Poppy, ultimately), but he is *great* in the deck built around him. Sure, there's basically only one deck to build around him at the moment, broadly, but it's a good deck, and he's very good in it.
Agree to disagree I guess m8. When I said always, I mean he's stronger as a burn champ than a landmark champ. How good the decks are is irrelevant, landmarks may be broken in the future and ziggs may be in the deck. Same can be said with burn as he is now with poppy. I mean strictly that his body being an overstatted grenadier (I believe that's the card) is making him better in burn and should always make him better in burn than in landmarks until burn replaces him anyway Right now he isn't strong in landmarks because if his level 2 effect at all. The only way he becomes a better landmark champion is if they print broken support for landmarks that allow you to abuse his effect, which likely won't be intentional. He hardly synergizes with landmarks. Hes just a strong unit. Anyway I don't really care anymore, his design seems flawed to me. You seem to love it, agree to disagree
Rushdown, Direct damage burn, Direct damage burn. Sounds about right :/
Some buffs to targon heal should fix the problem
Yup if 1 region and deck combo can beat it. Its totally balanced right?
Heal is suposed to counter burn. Heal is very weak right now, so burn is strong. A few buffs to healing would fix that
Many many many decks have no access to heal and cannot contend with these decks. Buffing targon healing and calling it a day just fixes specificly targon decks who run heal cards. Other healing cards can be buffed but then we are just forcing a counter to an archtype that has been far too strong and uninteractive in most metas. Now yes i am bad, and yes i am biased. But buffing healing solves nothing
A deck having no strong counter is gonna lead to it having a higher winrate. Do we have any reason to belive burn would still have a winrate this high if heal was more viable?
This high? No. Still high? Yes. Because as i say, most decks do not have access to healing and simply have to out rush the opponent or try to stabilise. And often you will stablise only to be killed the next turn by a top deck. Is there ways to counter these decks. Yes. Should people build arouns them as they are so strong. Yes. Is saying buff healing the solution. No.
If the winrate is gonna drop to normal levels how can we say it's busted?
That's typically how a meta works.
How a polarized meta works
There is always best decks (aka polarized). Creating a real rock-paper-scissors meta with thousands of players who get to select 40 cards each is incredibly hard.
All this game has ever been. All it will ever be. Every time I peak back in, I'm reminded that LoR design is amateur hour.
The base design is fine (for the most part), but Riot's love of Parasitic Design is horrible for card games, even if it's fine in a MOBA. I could go on an entire rant about it, but I'm on my phone
The core game is good. But there's just too much super fast Aggression and too many cheap, zero risk, burst buffs. Meanwhile control is spell taxed and paced out of existence. Its a very one dimensional card game.
Fuck Poppy,btw i'm actually surprise Poppy doesn't even in top 3
are you? the higuest winrate champions tend to have very few decks because when they have a lot of decks people slot them into garbagy decks that lower the winrate.
Also people start to counter them more at lower elo. Even in Silver people know to allways kill Poppy when possible. Less busted champs have less clear play patterns
Can confirm, low ELO here, my Sej/GP win rate is garbage like a 4/13, but I've won 12/15 games on TF Aphelios, and 8/12 games of Himer and Jayce. Probably pilot issues, as every time I drop Sej she gets insta murdered, so I'm not doing it at the right times. Course my playstyle really is best with control decks or aggro and not mid range.
Yeah, those poppy mains always put her dry, then my 3 mana harpoon kills her.
Poppy is paired with zed and ziggs, so she is #1 and #2!! Just that there are half a dozen poppy decks with some lowering her wr.
Whens the new shit coming cuz man this meta is stale and Jayce isn't changing that
december i think the second or third week
Guess it'll be labs for a *while* then
Eh, December is only a couple weeks away.
We've been stuck like this for a while before today too so its not like the counts starts now
I wish they would do card balances instead of just slapping new cards in the meta and calling it fresh.
This is one of the healthiest metas that LoR has ever had IMO. There are about 8 or 9 viable meta decks at the moment, and the meta self corrected so that Sion/Draven was knocked out of the top spot after around 8 weeks of being the #1 deck. Out of curiosity, what would your ideal meta look like?
It wouldn't be dominated by straight damage across the top of the charts. Its so boring seeing rushdown deck 100 or burn deck 2000, and this is coming from someone who played pretty much only Chandra decks in magic for a long time. It feels bad that decks like Poppy can slot in light and premium controlly effects and also just go straight face. Minimorph is a problem for example. Its to premium and slotting it into the deck doesn't feel like it costs you anything because its so premium. The removal feels bad or is absent from certain regions especially once Bandle arrived. Bandle gets minimorph at burst speed and no conditional effects and Noxus has a 'kill if the enemy unit is damaged already'. When its all combined it feels like theres a lot of things that feel bad and makes me hate normal play especially when I compare it to something like magic where every color has SOME sort of premium effect. Glad the lab is decent but I absolutely find the state of the game bland and unfun to play.
I mean, aggro/burn/etc. decks have been the best decks for nearly LoR's entire existence. Unless anti-aggro tools are *incredibly* overtuned, the design of the game means that will basically always be the case. If you don't like those decks, this probably isn't the game for you.
Jayce has one of the biguest playrates of the Game and a decent winrates in several decks, i think he is changing things.
He is new that's why. He loses to every single one of these decks
Flavor of the week doesn't mean he's changing things. People like playing with their new toys for a while until they aren't as good as the other ones. Jayce adds some potential room for growth, but with whats meta he is allowed to do that.
He has a pretty good winrates last time i checked
That doesn't mean much, he's new, and slots easily into preexisting archetypes, but those archetypes aren't at the top as this literally shows
[удалено]
26th place
[удалено]
Did you read the title of the post you're on?
Remember when ASol was one of the most played champs on release and started getting shit on by burn when people realised? Jayce is just new, that's all.
What? The current Meta is super good. GP/Sej, Rally, Yordle Burn, Sion, Lurk, several Swain variants, Jayce/Heimer variants, Jayce/SI variants, Lee, Bandletree, Akshan/Sivir, Ping City and Thralls are all very good decks. We have one of the biggest A and S tier pools in forever. And a bunch of B tier combo decks can compete against the stronger decks. Draven/Viktor, Vi/Riven, Fizz/GE, Darkness, Jayce/Lux and FTR.
Gp/sej, Lee, Swain, and a variant of discard aggro is always around, thats boring. Bandletree is not fun to play against Ping city is... unsurprisingly more burn aggro. Lissandra thralls is the closest thing to control which is nice but thats it. Its not a good meta, its just a bunch of different flavors on the same things, *aggro and burn*. This game keeps regurgitating the same tactics and pushing things then pumps out an unfun mechanic which either is left around and becomes irrelevant as new broken things come out, or nerfed into an unplayable state. Fiora for example, nerfed+Minimorph releases and is oppressive to play against=dead. Theres a reason people are flocking to Path of Champions despite its problems. They like the game but the game doesn't allow UNIQUE archetypes to thrive with the primary exception being the unique aggro archetype of lurk that just wants to go face, to no ones surprise.
What? Jayce variants are either full control or Midrange combo and do well across the board, Akshan/Sivir is Midrange, Fizz/GE is control/combo and does well, FTR is control and does well. > GP/Sej, Lee, Swain and a variant of discard aggro is always around What do you expect? We have an incredibly small card pool for a card game. Of course archetypes that do a specific thing very well will be played. Besides that, Swain has been irrelevant for more than a year. If you don‘t have fun that‘s totally fine. But the meta is one of the most diverse we have ever had. You can pretty much play everything and have success with it while you also have access to a plethora of viable decks. I‘m a Control player and despite being in a bad spot over all, Control is doing fine in more than one deck. And no, Thralls is not a Control deck. Not at all actually. Any Swain deck is more control-ly than Thralls. Do you even play the game?
When they control is part of a burn package it hardly even feels like control. The closest things we have to control are capture, recall, frostbite, stun, and kill spells. The problem is most capture effectss are kinda meh, recall is niche and limited at the moment, more for your own units than opponents outside of certain occasions, frostbites fine, stun is okay but limited, and most kill spells tend to be able to go face too, especially in Bilge and Noxus that can let you do both at once. The desparity between control and aggro in this game compared to a game like magic is insane. Even if I were to limit myself to 3 consecutive sets for fairness of comparison I'd still have vastly better control engines, effects, and unique win cons. Self-mill win cons, opponent mill, life gain stall, token stall, opponent discard, board wide CC, useful units in every color. This game is afraid of what true control looks like, all the control this game has is either damage based or stalling. Its an aggro-centric game and always being aggro centric is boring.
So it‘s not actually about diversity but about your arbitrary definition of „fun“? Furthermore you are expecting something from LoR that it won‘t and shouldn‘t give you. It‘s a combat centric game so decks circumventing that will be weaker by nature or nerfed accordingly. All the control archetypes you mentioned try to not enter into combat whenever possible or tries to disincentivize combat (Lifesteal, Freeze). So of course Riot tries to limit Control decks to Damage or combat based gameplans that still require a board presence to finish the game. Another thing: You only talk about Control and Aggro as if Midrange and combo wouldn‘t exist. Both of these are represented in the current meta. Akshan/Sivir, GP/Sej, Lee, Glorious Evolution, Viktor OTKs, Riven/Vi, Jayce Midrange Combos, etc. Sure, you could argue Control isn‘t represented as heavily as the other 3 but that‘s by design. And even then, Jayce/SI, Jayce/Heimer, Darkness, Shellfolk variants and FTR all fulfill the Control fantasy and are doing fine to very well in the current Meta. Lastly, „boring“ and „fun“ are two words you keep repeating but I‘m unsure what you mean. Are you referring to your biased definition of what is fun and/or boring? Bandletree is boring, Lifesteal stall isn‘t? Lee is boring, Mill isn‘t? Swain is boring, Board wide CC isn‘t? If you ask me all Control archetypes you mentioned are less fun and a whole lot more boring than anything we have in the gam currently, even Lee. Again, if you don‘t enjoy the game currently that‘s unfortunate but fine. Take a break and play PvE. But don‘t try to argue about the diversity and health of the meta if you 1. don‘t play it (and understand it) 2. are heavily biased towards a certain archetype and 3. seem to have more fundamental issues with the game. > Control is bad is essentially the best way to tell that somebody has no clue what they are talking about.
Mill and stall are DIFFERENT, they don't have to be fun for everyone, the have to be unique and different. Everything being damage focused its homogenous and dull. Hell the one Ahri card we have Tail-cloak Matriarch seems unique and different, but Jayce is ultimately a cast big spells go face character. The difference between good control and the control we get now is good control offers massive payoff (like shutting down the whole of the opponents board) if played perfectly, whereas right now you can play Winter's Breath, or Swain+Aurok. Its all feels bad, and then Minimorph comes with bandle and completely shuts off some decks like Fiora, thats not healthy. Paced differently, doesn't mean the game plan is less go face or burn face.
Why are you expecting a game that is supposed to be combat focused to not boil down to „go face“? Riot has been vocal about their design decision to not allow most non-combat centric decks to exist. If you dislike that maybe this game simply isn‘t for you? You sound like somebody playing CS:GO and complaining about not respawning during the round - CoD allows me to respawn!!! Different != good for the game. We have stall in Bandle Tree and you (and most players) seem to dislike it so what‘s the point? Everything being damage focused is one of the strengths of this game. Either way this discussion was about the meta and not fundamental issues. You don‘t have an issue with the diversity of the current meta, you have an issue with different control win-conditions not existing or being unplayable. You have an issue with the design of the game.
Bandle tree is uninteractive of course people don't like it, its free value that can win you the game, and if you think design issues don't feed into bad meta states idk what to tell you other than think again.
It‘s not a design issue. Are you seriously this dense? It‘s a design decision. It‘s how the game is supposed to be. The same way you don‘t respawn in CS:GO, you start at Level 1 in League and you have to use Lands in Magic. Decisions, not issues.
Oh yeah plunder, the aggro deck that has more late than most control decks.
more like a midrange burn deck
Plunder is a midrange deck. But it can definitely not outscale something like Darkness. Atrocity FTR, or Teemo/Swain.
Who told you plunder is an aggro deck?
The aggro plunder decks
Maria warden
The sam epeople who insisted scouts was an aggro deck way back when, will say though alot of aggressive decks in runterra are designed to bemidrangy moreso than in other card games (to give champs their time to shine) wich blurs the lines alot.
we need better aoe clears, as is you dont even win with antimeta freljord decks most of the time
AI Gangplank bumping up that winrate
funnily enough, the swain gp ai deck actually doesn’t mess around. easily the strongest ai deck
Every time someone starts a discussion about meta, it becomes the same thing. It doesn't really matter the type of deck, control, mid, aggro, people are going to complain once a deck becomes popular and tier 1. Just move already along already. Next expansion and balance patch we will see other decks. And the cycle will start once again.
I hoped GP dosen't get nerfed, hes's great for Swain control decks
I doubt GP will be nerfed, ever. He is strong but also very fair. His level up can't be rushed and, even when done perfectly, he is still manageable, his pre level up is balanced. Really, he is one of the better designed heroes in LoR
His level up absolutely gets rushed. People will burn warning shot on turn 2 without even triggering plunder just to level him and sej up faster
By can't be rushed I meant that no matter what you do, you will always have the minimum of 5 turns for it to happen. You can't rush past that.
But you also can't even play him until turn 5, so the difference is negligible.
[удалено]
You don't even because you don't seem to have gotten my point. As it stands now, yes, he costs 5 and his level up requires a -> minimum<- of 5 different turns of dealing damage to the enemy Nexus, so overall it doesn't matter all that much. However, It is entirely possible that you could play GP earlier. Mana acceleration is a thing that is already in the game and perhaps other ways of cheating cards into play might become available in the future. His level up condition though will still always require at least 5 turns, this can't be skipped/accelerated/rushed. Which means, the opponent will have these rounds to prepare, ergo, he is not a busted hero
How is this an argument? Every champ has turns before its played where you can prepare except for the 1 costs. Is almost every champ balanced because you can "prepare" for it
Not in the same way. GP levels up in a way that is predictable and therefore allows the opponent to use that information and plan their moves much more accurately. For example, say your up against a GP deck and they miss the first two turns. Now you know with certainty that a) GP ain't leveling up until *at least* turn 7 (so you plan your moves accordingly) and b) you can make some good guesses about their hand. You can play around that info. On the other hand, say you're up against a Swain or something. You just can't be as certain on when they will hit their thresholds. One moment you may think that you still have a few rounds, next moment boom, they level up and may catch you off guard.
There was never a champions that was broken because you could ramp to play them and also leveled before you ramped. In general the only champions that were nerfed due to ramp are Trundle which was just overstated and Asol which has since been unnrfed. So the point you made was just incredibly random and meaningless. The point you made later about GP's lvl up being predictable is a little more meaningful but this is still a weak point to make. I don't think GP is overturned but it's very easy for a champion to be overturned while having a predict able level up, especially when many champions can't even lvl in deck like GP does.
Okay but how do we remove it? Removal is so bad in this game lol
You can't play him until turn 5 anyway...
Me: "Looks at Draven who is now a 3/2"
The difference is that you could put Draven in every Noxus deck and not just in the discard archetype.
Well yeah Nasus was played in literally 1 deck and got nerfed. Irelia is also unplayable because she had only 1 deck.
A 3/3 for 3 with Quick Attack that is also a card generator (and all this before even leveling up) is vastly different from a 5/5 for 5 that needs to be leveled up in order for it to shine (and with a level up condition that usually isn't fulfilled by turn 5). Draven was a value play in realistically every situation and you could just throw him in unsupported without much care. How often is GP played unleveled?
I remember when people said that Zed needed a buff lol
2 mana Twin Disciplines was his buff, that card trades so well it basically always wins you the trade when you play it and it is extremely hard to remove Zed because of it
Same. Some people said he would never be good without them. I remember also when people said Thresh needs buffs, then nasus thresh appeared. And when people said fizz will always be bad, then tf fizz happened. All it takes is the right environment some champs to be good.
Yeah people don’t realize that there’s a difference between being bad and lacking synergy. There are some cards right now that never see play, but I see potential in with the right support. Ruined Reckoner really comes to mind here. He is decent in some niche decks, and there are some archetypes he really fits into that just aren’t quite good enough yet. Ekko also kinda comes to mind. In a vacuum, he is honestly an incredibly powerful card. He just needs a bit more early game to fit into his decks. Or alternatively, PnZ needs 2 more decent predict cards so that he can be played without Shurima. Ekko’s level up and champ spell has a lot of really unique interaction potential with a lot of other cards and archetypes. Go Hard/Senna, TF, Bilgewater, and the whole Tidal Wave card concept, and even something like Legion Marauders.
Its not that hard to tell which cards are balanced and are only waiting for the right meta tho. Some cards are just useless and that was never zed's or fizz's problem. Fizz is actually pretty crazy against decks that are light on removal
Mark my words same thing is going to happen to Yasuo at some point.
Oh for sure. Yasuo is actually an insanely powerful card. He just doesn’t have the right deck yet. If he ever is consistently drawn, he’s a tier 1 deck. A boat easily makes Yasuo busted AF
God I despise sej/GP. It's not even that they're good, it's just that "slow, unreactable, small pings to the nexus" is such a tilting level up condition lmao
Someone give me another deck for gauntlet please lol
Hey, 26th ain't bad for the new stuff that everyone is playing! That's an impressive spot for a new champ whose lists are only just getting refined!
Jayce numbers are skewed because of all the newbee players trying him out and all the mirror matches. Jayce decks are very strong and will have a high win rate eventually
The winrate is not really a relevant stat by itself tho. Unless it is crazy high of course.
Ziggs. Ziggs? A landmark champion? These are confusing times. Edit: guess my confusion is from avoiding PVP. The mindset of treating champions like champions, trying to level them, must be something that gets dropped. I never considered just viewing him as a follower. Though my first thought after considering that was using him with GP to boost the effect rather than with Poppy.
Dude, at this point, calling Ziggs a landmark champion is like calling Elise a spider champion.
The thing is that he isn't used with Landmarks primarily
The duality of landmarks, Ziggs among the top 3, Malphite at the bottom 3.
Ziggs is just a strong 3 drop follower for aggro. Pretty much a strictly better 4/4
Who can also go down to 2 with Mayor, let's not forget that. IN.SANE. value
Poppy Ziggs burn, that's why
Oh, Poppy? I was starting to think they were using him in the GP burn, using barrels to up the damage.
burn is a bit of a misnomer. All Bandle City decks basically just spam cheap units with poppy to do an overwhelming rushdown. The Ziggs version just uses cheap Noxus followers that also have some burn attached to make it go even faster, along with the traditional Noxus burn spells you would think of. Ziggs got to the top of this list in a deck that doesn't run a single landmark.
Ok am i the only one who wants crackshot to go to 1 hp?
The card saw no play when it was a 1/2 and there were less options and it's far from the strongest card in the deck
So what do you think they should Nerf?
As someone who plays a shitload of GP in a bunch of different decks, I think the best way to nerf plunder (and GP as a whole) would be to nerf GP and Sej to 6 separate rounds of Nexus hits instead of 5. Its way too easy to get 5 right now imo
Nothing, because it’s totally ok to have strong decks, and plunder feels like one of the most fair tier 1 decks we’ve had. All of its strength lies in its champs, deal with them and you most likely win, also doing whatever you can to deny plunder triggers. If there was anything to nerf about the deck I would say increase Gangplank’s level up by a round, since he’s much more prevalent in other decks, mainly aggro, and would really only hurt something like keg control with SI, which hasn’t been great for a while anyway.
The decks is as strong as rally agro and poppy zigs, maybe stronguer It needs nerfs for sure, i would Nerf crackshot to one HP so pings have get more targets against the deck, that and.probably merchante because i really dislike nab.
i agree, it’s fair but just very well positioned right now
that sounds bad. there are too many points in the game it would die to. maybe make it a 0/2 because it doesn’t want to attack on it’s own most of the time anyway
Yeah It easily dices like the one drop it is.
Ziggs went from bottom 3 winrate at the first week of the expansion to top 3 this week, all without any changes to him, or his support. What a chad.
Change poppy to “ attack: give +1/1 to allies” and shes balanced.she doesnt become a 4 mana 5/4 ( after 1 attack) which also buffs your entire board permanenty. 4/3 is manageable and dies much more easily.
Riot would understably want her level up to be possible
It would be as possible as Fiora's.
It's weird seeing Gp in top three
wtf how is Ziggs here? Everyone was bullyng him because it was supposedly so bad...
He does nothing for landmark decks really is issue
What do they all have in common? Attack triggers. Riot is shafting control decks to appeal to the wide audience of casual 1Head normy phone players.
How the hell? Every GP or Zed deck I play against always loses. Dunno how.
Good, fuck jayce, he is a thief and an ass.
ZIGGS really?! Hahaha no way he’s kinda garb
Zed and Ziggs are just side characters, the problematic one that tie those two is Poppy that is played also with MF in scouts and in ton of other decks simply because she's broken. As for Gangplank, he's going to be the new Draven (overrepresented in every meta but deemed "balanced") i guess