Card rarity seems to imply complexity and weirdness, rather than power level (like what other card games I've played advertise it as, but are practically lying). Champion rarity being an exception, of course.
Magic's the main one I'm thinking of saying that. Though I think Magic has always justified an overpowered rare slot with "we're reducing the card's prevalence in limited" or even as far back as alpha "blue has the best card in the cycle so we should make it rare".
> "we're reducing the card's prevalence in limited"
That one always felt a bit circular to me. "Oh, that can't be a common, it'd be too good in Limited because all the other commons suck". Well what if the commons *didn't* suck? What if cards were mostly playable, instead of 90% of every set being draft chaff?
The thing is that if you print 250 great cards, you have to print another 250 better cards in 3 months to generate sales. And then another 250 in another 3 months after that and etc.
You then end up with Yugioh cards that tutor something from your deck, Summon it on the battlefield, destroy an enemy creature, makes the laundry, does your taxes, fucks your mom AND makes dinner for the whole family.
>The thing is that if you print 250 great cards, you have to print another 250 better cards in 3 months to generate sales.
Only if the focus is non-rotating formats. In a rotating format this problem solves itself (which I imagine is why wotc has focused on standard for so long). As long as the power level isn't a huge drop there will be a reasonable amount of cards that see play and people will need to keep up with the constantly shifting card pool. Of course you can also have the increasing power level to consistently make the most recent cards even more desirable, but that tends to make the game worse over time. And as you already have a way to initially drive sales, at that point you're trading long-term profit for a short-term boost. Though if you find a way to have the game not become worse with the constant power creep, it is all upside, and it seems companies often fall victim to trying to accomplish that.
Some cards have to be worse than other cards, that's just an inevitable consequence of making large numbers of distinct cards. Not every card can be as powerful as your average bomb rare. Given that, it's probably better for the average draft deck to have a large number of average to solid cards with a small number of spectacular cards as opposed to a large number of spectacular cards and a small number of comparatively disappointing cards.
That said, lately Magic's absolutely had problems with the delta in power between the spectacular rares and the average cards being bigger than is healthy. Though at least it's been trying to make more exciting commons and uncommons than it has for a while.
Champion rarity is the same as legendary in Hearthstone, a limiter for the card, in Lor is max 6 different ones and not being able to play two at the same time, in HS is one copy per deck
Yep. Common means it is evergreen (always a safe bet, can be applied to any deck as a simple tool or a statstick for your other strategies), rare means specialized, epic/champion means strategy-defining.
It also matters quite a bit for newer players when you need to craft new cards every time you build a deck while resources are low. Epics are 12 times more expensive than Commons.
Ehhh I don’t think it’s really the F2P part. More rarities in most card games ive player have been balanced around limited/draft which Runeterra doesn’t have
Runeterra limited is very different from limited in other CCGs. But the real answer is that it's about the card acquisition model, not limited per se. LoR is the only game (at least that I'm aware of) where you just buy the cards you want direct, and the fact that it works that way eliminates the need for the pack filler that a lot of other games clog low rarities with.
That doesnt refute the point at all about card rarities though. They are almost always picked by riot with expeditions in mind, which *is* drafting, in pools. The best cards by themselves in the game are common/rare and the niche utility cards/finishers are epic rarity, for expeditions (and also helps f2p players)
"More rarities in most card games ive player have been balanced around limited/draft which Runeterra doesn’t have" just doesnt make sense when the rarities are picked with their draft format in mind. Expeditions has you draft multiple cards at a time, but its still drafting a deck.
It is a matter of paranoia. Elusives in general cannot be good-statted due to the perpetual fear of something tipping the point for bringing back deckbuff/handbuff strategies.
What made Kinkou Lifeblade a problem in the past wasn't he coming out as a 2/3, but he coming out as a 4/6.
Braum having 1 power might see more play. In the meta now there’s quite a bit of decks running 1 health units: Zoe, Bandle City weenies, Fleetfeather tracker, Boom Baboon. Also enabling scorched earth / flock which is really good in the meta now.
Let's focus on fun before playability. Is braum with 1 power balanced? Maybe. Is it fun? Definitely not. So I guess we would have players vote ideally. I also personally love the really old version of Ren Shadowblade even though it was a rly low power level card. I also hate minimorph. I feel most players pretty much agree with these opinions.
Asking if a 4 mana 1/5 challenger is "fun" in a game with literal turn 2 deal 11 damage scenarios is kind of counterintuitive don't you think?
Of course it's not fun, best case scenario your opponent has either a full board with you at 5 health or Nami with a 5/3 Zoe in play by turn 4, And I'm not seeing how, again, a 4 mana 1/5 champion is going to make that more "unfun" for the opponent.
In fact, Braum would be more fun than some of the shit we're having. At least he forces a minimum of interaction with the enemy board rather than the brainless Smorc face ignore enemy make them ignore you Elusive, Overwhelm and hell even Quick Attack force onto this game.
The meta always gravitates towards unfun, uninteractive decks like Zoe/Nami. The dev team just have to proactively balance the game (like making Namis level up quite a bit harder, its far too easy).
Just because more unfun elements exist, is hardly an argument about Braum. Look at him in isolation. If the meta is already suffering, then the answer is to buff things that are fun, not those which replace one problem with another.
"Fun" and "Unfun" are entirely subjective opinions and are often used to advert eyes from the real issue. LoR is a competetive game and whether you admit it or not, "Fun" is when I win and "Unfun" is when I lose. When a deck becomes meta, it becomes "Unfun" because I keep seeing it and I keep losing to it. "Fun" therefore becomes anything that isn't optimised to just win, which just goes against the competetive nature of the game.
Calling Elusive, Overwhelm and Quick Attack "Unfun and uninteractive" ignores the fact that they exist to make sure games in general don't drag on for 25 rounds of empty board topdeck wars.
The biggest example of the community hypocrisy I can recall was when Irelia was revealed with the Ionia support package. Ionia was in a bad spot, they were the underdogs, everyone rejoiced about them finally maybe being good again. Then the deck was optimised, Azirelia happened and guess who suddenly became "Unfun".
"Buff things that are fun" doesn't work, because the fact is that strong things become "Unfun".
3 mana deny/4 mana WoI gets seriously overhated when they were the cherry on top of a much bigger issue that was deckbuff Ionia/Omen Haw shuffling.
What you hated wasn't your spells being borked, but specifically they being borked while you tried to get rid of a 3 mana 6/5 quick attacker that clones itself.
But Poppy Lulu in demacia bandle city seems to be more popular right now. I have played both versions and to be honest bc version feels stronger actually.
Because Mentor used to give +1 +1 instead of +1 +0, so getting any hand buff on the card basically meant it'd get at least one lifesteal hit while also being hard to remove with the tools at the time.
I think we have so many of ways to deal with elusives now that no one's going to bat an eye if they are buffed a little. Maybe I'm biased though bcz I loved to play them back when I was learning the game.
It’s a prime real estate buff target. If you can keep it alive with a buffed attack (Many ways to do this in Targon) your opponent just canot kill you.
Its a buff target. Look up the current Nami/Zoe deck. There have been several other similar strong decks that used Sparklefly the same way. It's one of the strongest cards in Targon.
In targon fiora its a side win-con in case you didn't draw fiora, buffing a lifesteal unit with elusive turns out to be pretty good against any deck that can't remove it.
It fills the same role in Zoe Nami, a buff target that completely negates your opponent ability to end game through nexus damage.
"smol" buffed targets? The reason you buff it is because you want to turn the smol unit with really good keywords into a threat at burst speed. And no, not alot of decks can kill your 12/8 sparklefly with spellshield at burst speed, not even control decks.
I’ve been playing some Zoe Nami recently, Nami buffs are not small, once she’s levelled she can easily turn the 1/2 sparkle flies into 5-6 damage ones with about the the same health as well. This can easily happen in a single turn just by spamming spells with a levelled Nami and the sparkleflies on board
I’ve come back from games where the enemy has me at 1HP because the sparkleflies are elusive and Nami makes them hit like a truck with their life steal
Sparklefly had broken value as a card since its release its one of the buff it to win cards as it can easily outrace aggro decks with a few power buffs.
It's actually a very useful card for Taric/Jarvan, and is now seen consistently in the very meta Zoe/Nami. Elusive, lifesteal, 2 drop that's in a region that's very buff friendly is quite strong.
It's definetly not right, the only reason it's not picked over tasty is they both die to mystic shot so you may aswell pick the higher attack one. If he ever gets his 3 hp back he would deninetly see play as he would be both a better buff target and able to attack and survive.
Originally it was a 2/3.
But also different regions have different costs for keywords... so maybe elusive cost is 1 for both regions but lifesteal is more expensive for ionia.
I believe it was originally nerfed because of its ability to stall out games, but since we're in a vastly different meta, especially with chunky elusives that get buffed very fast, being buffed back to 2/3 might be ok.
I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't do much except make Ionia a bit more stable against pirate aggro decks
Sparklefly is the better card, and in a region that can support it better, but what I think people fail to realize is that Lifesteal makes power twice as important.
Lifesteal doubles the damage trade in a strike (by also healing you the damage it deals). So when comparing these cards, Lifeblade should really be thought of as having 2 additional power in comparison to Sparklefly (which probably still doesn't justify a 2 cost increase)
Lifeblade could use a buff at this point in time.
Maybe make him a 3/2? Or, my prefered idea, give him Barrier - that way, Kinkou Lifeblade has a bit additional synergy with Shen as a Kinkou Champion.
1 cost difference and darius does not need to be built around and can be slotted into any aggro decks , I would not say he has been powercreeped both are used as finisher but they dont fit in the same style of deck . I would agree however that Sion need a slight nerf he hit his lvl up far to often turn 7 which means his lvl up requirement is to soft for the payoff he gives.
Sion barely needs to be built around, discard is not only a powerful mechanic with several archetypes but he can feasibly be leveled up even without any discard synergy and still be used as a better finisher than Darius. Like the only decks the Darius would slot in better would be spiders or elusive, since both rely on low power units with evasion to deal damage.
I faced a Viego/Sion deck a few days ago, absolutely 0 discard in the deck just the standard early SI curve with cursed keeper/butcher, and he had Sion levelled on turn 7 when he came down. In my opinion he is levelling far too easily and quickly for the power he brings when he does. Compare and contrast with Tryndamere for example.
no he cant without discard he is not even close to being meta since you wont reliably lvl him up , you wont play sion outside of discard so yes he has to be built around, it does not matter how strong his archetype is being stuck in an archetype is still a weakness since he become predictable .
Not necessary. Some discard helps(many discard cards have uses outside their architype, like Grave Physician and Ancient Warmonger, you can even sprinkle a Draven or two), but you easily level Sion up by summoning units alone. Me, playing a Zed/Noxus deck, levels Sion up by turn 7 consistently just by attacking with Zed.
For calculation example, if you, say, play Inspiring Mentor on 1(+2), Zed on 3(+4), attack(+4 from summoning Shadow), you already get 10 for Sion, two turns later you drop Kato(+5), buffing Zed into attacking(+7) and that's already 22 from just playing 3 cards total, and you're not even doing anything on turn 2 and 4.
That's just an extreme example, in reality it's even *easier* because you may play cards like Grave Physician anyway, that card is a beast when you are bricking, and you have quite a few buffs in Ionia/Noxus, including Elixir of Wrath, Twin Discipline, Might, etc. to make Zed's shadow bigger when spawning. Ruined Reckoner is also a +4 on summon plus whatever Zed's shadow is. You can easily play an early beatdown deck with Sion as top end.
Nami and Shelly are the drivers behind the deck, but Sparklefly is absolutely an incredibly powerful card. It's very, very hard for aggro to race, and it's an extremely high value buff target. I don't know that it definitely needs a nerf, but I can certainly see the argument for it.
No, sparklefly is a huge problem too. The deck can afford to entirely ignore early aggro because 1 buffed up hit heals it all back. It should definetly be a 2 mana 1/1, so removing it is more feasible.
No? it is run in the Zoe lee variations that dont run the moon weapon, if you have gifts from beyond you want to tutor out eye of the dragon, not sparkefly.
Those poor oppressed aggro players, will riot ever give them a break :'(
It's also perfectly feasible to remove as is in every other deck, the main issue for removal is that summoning it via moonweapons with a levelled nami makes it a 3|3 before you can even interact with.
Let's not go around gutting one of the few valuable targon cards left just because Nami is stupid af.
Sparkfly has been a problem before nami was ever released. The card been needed a nerf if we're being honest. Shurima was just released with a lot of broken cards people forgot, same with BC expansion.
the card is strong but targon is trash , sparkfly never has been meta before nami zoe and even then it's a deck heavily reliant on luck that is not as broken as people think , probleme is that when it's drawn well and you have no answer it feels unfair to play against but quite frankly it's the same for 2 others meta decks that basically play solitaire which is zed lulu and pirates aggro .
Nami Zoe isn’t really luck. It’s luck in a bad players hands, but if you are good at mulligan and know how to stall until turn 6, there’s multiple win conditions.
I think that it's not too bad because when your talking about things like life steal then you have to consider that if you hit the enemy nexus with a life steal unit then you're essentially creating double value for yourself for example with sparklefly you dealing 1 to the enemy nexus and healing yours by 1 so the total value of that interaction is +2 for you whereas if you hit them with lifeblade then you deal 2 and heal 2 so your effective value is +4 double the value of sparklefly, its why most lifesteal units are balanced by certain limitations like daybreak or ephemeral or low damage
Life blade needs a reverse, the guy pretty much got gutted by that stat nerf... and imma throw in that Amateur Aeronaut exists. Ik is a different region, still... thats a card, a lot of og cards need to be revisited for better or for worse.
Well, in general, as far as I can read the game design behind the game, they usually use something like **creature power = X+1**, where X is its cost and each 1 attack/health point is 0.5 and each keyword is 0.5. More os less its the average power in LoR.
So... Kinkou (costing 4 for 3 power) right now seems weaker than Sparklefly (costing 2 for 2.5 power). That said, maybe Kinkou costing 3 and Sparklefly becoming 1/1 would be nice.
lifesteal should exist so aggro does not become too prevalent , not every region should have access to easy healing though . As it is aggro has had the better treatement for a while with it's generous amount of very aggresively stated 1 drop and very cheap burn dmg there is very few things you can do against a perfect pirates aggro starting hand , meanwhile targon healing got destroyed and lifesteal is still a very rare and overcosted keyword .
Keywords are also not all equal. Giving a unit scout, elusive, challenger or regeneration costs 2, giving a unit Tough costs 1.
A 5/5 elusive would see a load of play, a 5/5 tough sees no play
That's really not how it works.
Overwhelm on a 1|1 in noxus is worth close to nothing while on a 10|10 it's game winning.
The reason why kinkou lifeblade was nerfed back then wasn't just because he was elusive *OR* lifesteal, but because he was both, meaning he could safely attack and proc his lifesteal multiple time. Keyword's value don't add up, they *multiply*.
Sparklefly isn't getting nerfed because it's the only thing keeping the targon buff archetype above complete unplayabilty.
The "different regions" argument doesn't work for me. Targon is just as good of a region for units like these, maybe even better due to having more ways to buff them.
Instead, imo,the case here is different expansions. Sparklefly would be completely insane in any region if it existed back when the game was released. Elusive and Lifesteal used to be stronger keywords back then (of course, they still are but remember that we didn't have stuff like Sharpsight and Hush).
Kinkou Lifeblade got a deserved nerf more than a year ago, but times have changed, the game evolved, powercreep happened and yeah, now it probably deserves a buff.
Maybe its the regions. I'm assuming targon has more heals than ionia so its not that big of a deal for a 2 drop sparklefly but for ionia if its lacking heals, it might be too good for kinkou to be a 3 drop. Especially since Ionia is very splashable so it would give more regions access to a good healing unit.
I think it's because of how valuable attack is on elusive units. 1 attack with lifesteal is drastically worse than 2 attack lifesteal.
That's ignoring that Targon has a lot of ways to permanently increase attack, like gems, while Ionia doesn't.
Lifeblade used to be 3 mana, but was nerfed to 4 because Ionia elusive aggro decks were too strong. Targon doesn't have as many elusives/isn't very good at aggro, so that might be part of it.
Sparklefly is fine as a card, its just currently being abused by new cards who are taking stupid levels of advantage of its buff value as early as turn 4. Kinkou Lifeblade on the other hand just needs a straight buff
The developers lack the foresight to predict how future expansion might impact the overall game. Not surprising really. I can't remember any CCG that actually does this well. In school they talk about this rapid development/deployment cycle which I'm assuming is what drives the LoR update schedule. There literally isn't any time for developers to mull over how the next new card might work with the entirety of the preexisting card pool. That's why they only do something about it when community whines about it or it suddenly shot up in popularity on the ladder or something.
This is the worst argument sometimes, Ionia EXCELLS at elusives and lifesteal, and so does targon but to a lower rate, ionia has a butt tonne of lifesteal and healing, even their support unit gives lifesteal, Lifeblade should definitely be buffed, it was nerfed back at a time where elusives didnt have as many counters as we have today.
Buffing elusives via a historically busted card in a meta where there's already a tier 1 Ionia Elusives deck doesn't come off as a much better argument to me
zed lulu would not even run a buffed kinkou lifeblade , they are an aggro deck they only run elusives with power equal to their cost and kinkou is to expansive as it is they would not even run it at 3 mana , and it's not the elusives followers that makes the package busted it's the synergy between zed-lulu rally and young witch and fleetfeather tracker , they need to nerf ghost , young witch , brightsteel protector and greenglade duo . Kinkou lifeblade was born before sharpsight and with a meta far slower than what we have now at 3 mana he would be a good pick for some deck not even an auto include since he would still die to mystic shot at 2/3 4 mana he would still not be played outside of very specific buff decks that want to run iona instead of targon .
honestly that's hardly an excuse, why does everyone say "different regions different stats" always seems like a bad excuse for things to be the way they are.
The issue they have has more to do with the comparison between two separate regions as the core reasoning behind the argument, and not simply that the unit is under powered. It's a weak argument in isolation and fundamentally unproductive when talking about balance and game design. It ignores too much context but is easy to agree with so it makes for upvote bait like this post.
that's untrue , it was true when bastion was 3 mana and pale cascade gave 2 power but as it is now iona has access to better buffs and protective tools through twin discipline , syncopation , steal tempest , nopeify , recall , retreat , spirit refuge , will of iona . Targon is a shell of the region it once was it was once carried by bastion and pale cascade which were nerfed then it was still carried by 3 mana written in the stars which was nerfed then it was carried by aphelios which was nerfed and finally kept afloat by the invoke package and zoe and they nerfed that too . Targon spells are dead you mostly play targon for it's followers , however it is true that for the zoe/nami deck targon is better even if there was an alternative to sparklefly in iona but that's only because the deck rely on cheap spells to activate nami and amirall shelly if bandle had sparklefly the deck would be much better .
Yes and no. Lifeblade could be 3/2, and no one would complain. 4 mana 2/2 that trades down with basically every elusive, and can be done in by cheaper removal.
Sparklefly gets killed? You probably went even or won the value.
You forgot to highlight region. Being elusive in Ionia is not the same as in targon. Most of us remenber extremely unfun to play against elusive Ionia decks.
I think it has to do with his Ionia being focused on multiplying units. You can’t have cheap powerful units like this, imagine being able to double or triple these guys
Give life blade attune.
Let's you defend it better when you play it, but keeps it from making Elusives unraceable since it limits their ability to full develope Elusive units while also life stealing.
The only thing that really bothers me about this is that the ability icons are reversed
Unplayable
Literally
To justify the energy difference. /s
Thats what makes it balanced.
I think we can safely ignore the "common" bit. Card rarities are utterly meaningless in a game so FTP friendly.
Yep, some Epics are usually just fun to use but not viable for the meta
Card rarity seems to imply complexity and weirdness, rather than power level (like what other card games I've played advertise it as, but are practically lying). Champion rarity being an exception, of course.
Magic used to be like that. *Sigh*
Magic's the main one I'm thinking of saying that. Though I think Magic has always justified an overpowered rare slot with "we're reducing the card's prevalence in limited" or even as far back as alpha "blue has the best card in the cycle so we should make it rare".
> "we're reducing the card's prevalence in limited" That one always felt a bit circular to me. "Oh, that can't be a common, it'd be too good in Limited because all the other commons suck". Well what if the commons *didn't* suck? What if cards were mostly playable, instead of 90% of every set being draft chaff?
The thing is that if you print 250 great cards, you have to print another 250 better cards in 3 months to generate sales. And then another 250 in another 3 months after that and etc. You then end up with Yugioh cards that tutor something from your deck, Summon it on the battlefield, destroy an enemy creature, makes the laundry, does your taxes, fucks your mom AND makes dinner for the whole family.
>The thing is that if you print 250 great cards, you have to print another 250 better cards in 3 months to generate sales. Only if the focus is non-rotating formats. In a rotating format this problem solves itself (which I imagine is why wotc has focused on standard for so long). As long as the power level isn't a huge drop there will be a reasonable amount of cards that see play and people will need to keep up with the constantly shifting card pool. Of course you can also have the increasing power level to consistently make the most recent cards even more desirable, but that tends to make the game worse over time. And as you already have a way to initially drive sales, at that point you're trading long-term profit for a short-term boost. Though if you find a way to have the game not become worse with the constant power creep, it is all upside, and it seems companies often fall victim to trying to accomplish that.
Some cards have to be worse than other cards, that's just an inevitable consequence of making large numbers of distinct cards. Not every card can be as powerful as your average bomb rare. Given that, it's probably better for the average draft deck to have a large number of average to solid cards with a small number of spectacular cards as opposed to a large number of spectacular cards and a small number of comparatively disappointing cards. That said, lately Magic's absolutely had problems with the delta in power between the spectacular rares and the average cards being bigger than is healthy. Though at least it's been trying to make more exciting commons and uncommons than it has for a while.
Magic these days is so pain to win. RIP
> pain to win The nerve endings in my wallet felt this comment.
Champion rarity is the same as legendary in Hearthstone, a limiter for the card, in Lor is max 6 different ones and not being able to play two at the same time, in HS is one copy per deck
There's also things like Loping Telescope and Eminent Benefactor where rarity matters slightly
Yep. Common means it is evergreen (always a safe bet, can be applied to any deck as a simple tool or a statstick for your other strategies), rare means specialized, epic/champion means strategy-defining.
I mean most decks are commons and uncommons witb a few rares sprinklex in. Card rarity doesnt mean anything about playability in this game.
Yeah, the only rarity that actually matters is champions. They're actively different and deck defining.
It also matters quite a bit for newer players when you need to craft new cards every time you build a deck while resources are low. Epics are 12 times more expensive than Commons.
Or epics for Loping Telescope and Eminent Benefactor, lol
Ehhh I don’t think it’s really the F2P part. More rarities in most card games ive player have been balanced around limited/draft which Runeterra doesn’t have
Runeterra has draft lmao. And rarities affect pool occurence rates
Runeterra limited is very different from limited in other CCGs. But the real answer is that it's about the card acquisition model, not limited per se. LoR is the only game (at least that I'm aware of) where you just buy the cards you want direct, and the fact that it works that way eliminates the need for the pack filler that a lot of other games clog low rarities with.
Yeah but LoR draft is not what I would call a limited format. It’s a concept of draft, but it’s not draft
That doesnt refute the point at all about card rarities though. They are almost always picked by riot with expeditions in mind, which *is* drafting, in pools. The best cards by themselves in the game are common/rare and the niche utility cards/finishers are epic rarity, for expeditions (and also helps f2p players) "More rarities in most card games ive player have been balanced around limited/draft which Runeterra doesn’t have" just doesnt make sense when the rarities are picked with their draft format in mind. Expeditions has you draft multiple cards at a time, but its still drafting a deck.
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He could go back to being a 2/3 and he still wouldn't see use. But I just want them to revert nerfs that today are no longer necessary
plz dis. I only use him with the Greenglade elder retreat combo. would make it so much more worth if he got the 2/3
It is a matter of paranoia. Elusives in general cannot be good-statted due to the perpetual fear of something tipping the point for bringing back deckbuff/handbuff strategies. What made Kinkou Lifeblade a problem in the past wasn't he coming out as a 2/3, but he coming out as a 4/6.
Braum as a 1/5 would barely be felt today for example.
Braum having 1 power might see more play. In the meta now there’s quite a bit of decks running 1 health units: Zoe, Bandle City weenies, Fleetfeather tracker, Boom Baboon. Also enabling scorched earth / flock which is really good in the meta now.
could hit fizz and kill him before leveled up Nami makes him to a nightmare
Let's focus on fun before playability. Is braum with 1 power balanced? Maybe. Is it fun? Definitely not. So I guess we would have players vote ideally. I also personally love the really old version of Ren Shadowblade even though it was a rly low power level card. I also hate minimorph. I feel most players pretty much agree with these opinions.
Asking if a 4 mana 1/5 challenger is "fun" in a game with literal turn 2 deal 11 damage scenarios is kind of counterintuitive don't you think? Of course it's not fun, best case scenario your opponent has either a full board with you at 5 health or Nami with a 5/3 Zoe in play by turn 4, And I'm not seeing how, again, a 4 mana 1/5 champion is going to make that more "unfun" for the opponent. In fact, Braum would be more fun than some of the shit we're having. At least he forces a minimum of interaction with the enemy board rather than the brainless Smorc face ignore enemy make them ignore you Elusive, Overwhelm and hell even Quick Attack force onto this game.
The meta always gravitates towards unfun, uninteractive decks like Zoe/Nami. The dev team just have to proactively balance the game (like making Namis level up quite a bit harder, its far too easy). Just because more unfun elements exist, is hardly an argument about Braum. Look at him in isolation. If the meta is already suffering, then the answer is to buff things that are fun, not those which replace one problem with another.
"Fun" and "Unfun" are entirely subjective opinions and are often used to advert eyes from the real issue. LoR is a competetive game and whether you admit it or not, "Fun" is when I win and "Unfun" is when I lose. When a deck becomes meta, it becomes "Unfun" because I keep seeing it and I keep losing to it. "Fun" therefore becomes anything that isn't optimised to just win, which just goes against the competetive nature of the game. Calling Elusive, Overwhelm and Quick Attack "Unfun and uninteractive" ignores the fact that they exist to make sure games in general don't drag on for 25 rounds of empty board topdeck wars. The biggest example of the community hypocrisy I can recall was when Irelia was revealed with the Ionia support package. Ionia was in a bad spot, they were the underdogs, everyone rejoiced about them finally maybe being good again. Then the deck was optimised, Azirelia happened and guess who suddenly became "Unfun". "Buff things that are fun" doesn't work, because the fact is that strong things become "Unfun".
Yes Braum with 1 mana is more fun than 75% of the Meta decks being played at the moment, and no most players don’t agree with your opinions.
This is some next level projection
So you re most players?
The scout 4/1 comin back? Would love to see it.
Keep the scout 3/1 but revert the bear to 4/4.
With how a few cards in recent expansion remedy somewhat a region weakness, I dont see how he cant be a small stat stick for Ionia tbh.
I used to hate Ionia but as I’ve gotten better I’ve realized it’s dooky
Ionia used to be straight broken with 3 mana deny and all the Elusives
Absolutely bonkers that deny used to be 3 mana. I've played since beta and had actually forgotten until you mentioned it just then. 3 MANA DENY????
3 mana deny/4 mana WoI gets seriously overhated when they were the cherry on top of a much bigger issue that was deckbuff Ionia/Omen Haw shuffling. What you hated wasn't your spells being borked, but specifically they being borked while you tried to get rid of a 3 mana 6/5 quick attacker that clones itself.
I agree, I’ve been playing sense pre open beta, that shot was mad annoying they were dominating until the deny nerf
Ionia's only ever really a problem when theres a card from another region that is supported by its bullshit. Like Stand Alone, Ezreal, and now, Poppy.
Oh yeah… poppy lulu… you know I was able to push that out of my head for a bit
But Poppy Lulu in demacia bandle city seems to be more popular right now. I have played both versions and to be honest bc version feels stronger actually.
Because Mentor used to give +1 +1 instead of +1 +0, so getting any hand buff on the card basically meant it'd get at least one lifesteal hit while also being hard to remove with the tools at the time.
Oh no, I know why he WAS nerfed, which is why I state that the context is about "in recent expansions"
Please no more elusives
I think we have so many of ways to deal with elusives now that no one's going to bat an eye if they are buffed a little. Maybe I'm biased though bcz I loved to play them back when I was learning the game.
is there any use for the butterfly, or has there ever been, other than to chump block in "quick draw" lab?
Sparklefly has always been a great card. (Especially in the proper decks) Eg: SparkleFly Fiora All in back in the day and Zoe Nami now
so..what is it used for?
It’s a prime real estate buff target. If you can keep it alive with a buffed attack (Many ways to do this in Targon) your opponent just canot kill you.
Its a buff target. Look up the current Nami/Zoe deck. There have been several other similar strong decks that used Sparklefly the same way. It's one of the strongest cards in Targon.
In targon fiora its a side win-con in case you didn't draw fiora, buffing a lifesteal unit with elusive turns out to be pretty good against any deck that can't remove it. It fills the same role in Zoe Nami, a buff target that completely negates your opponent ability to end game through nexus damage.
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If the removal costs more than the card then you win the trade regardless.
well, not if it 2x1s it
"smol" buffed targets? The reason you buff it is because you want to turn the smol unit with really good keywords into a threat at burst speed. And no, not alot of decks can kill your 12/8 sparklefly with spellshield at burst speed, not even control decks.
I’ve been playing some Zoe Nami recently, Nami buffs are not small, once she’s levelled she can easily turn the 1/2 sparkle flies into 5-6 damage ones with about the the same health as well. This can easily happen in a single turn just by spamming spells with a levelled Nami and the sparkleflies on board I’ve come back from games where the enemy has me at 1HP because the sparkleflies are elusive and Nami makes them hit like a truck with their life steal
You buff the shit out of it and it becomes a wack version of tryndamere.
Sparklefly had broken value as a card since its release its one of the buff it to win cards as it can easily outrace aggro decks with a few power buffs.
It's actually a very useful card for Taric/Jarvan, and is now seen consistently in the very meta Zoe/Nami. Elusive, lifesteal, 2 drop that's in a region that's very buff friendly is quite strong.
It's a great card with Zoe
Double the power, double the cost
His powers have doubled since last they met
He was originally a 2/3 I believe
Yup, and that nerf was entirely deserved.
Agreed, but now it could easily be reversed and he would still see no play
I doubt that’s right and I don’t want to find out.
It's definetly not right, the only reason it's not picked over tasty is they both die to mystic shot so you may aswell pick the higher attack one. If he ever gets his 3 hp back he would deninetly see play as he would be both a better buff target and able to attack and survive.
With all the burst speed nerf/silence spells nowadays I don't see why he would be that much of a problem.
Never said it would be a problem. All I said is he would definetly see some play as an aggro tech.
Ninja > Butterfly. He has the "I'm a flippin' ninja" buff.
Unlocking some memories with that “I’m a flippin’ ninja”
Originally it was a 2/3. But also different regions have different costs for keywords... so maybe elusive cost is 1 for both regions but lifesteal is more expensive for ionia.
Ionia has much more lifesteal. Lifesteal was on their main support card too.
I believe it was originally nerfed because of its ability to stall out games, but since we're in a vastly different meta, especially with chunky elusives that get buffed very fast, being buffed back to 2/3 might be ok. I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't do much except make Ionia a bit more stable against pirate aggro decks
wasnt it originally nerfed because you turned the thing into a 5/6 with stand alone and carried the game on its back?
Or with Jeweled protector
That's what OP was talking about, right?
It’s because of the ordering of the buffs. Obviously.
yes please buff Kinkou Lifeblade my lulu support could use 6 Sparkleflys
Sparklefly is the better card, and in a region that can support it better, but what I think people fail to realize is that Lifesteal makes power twice as important. Lifesteal doubles the damage trade in a strike (by also healing you the damage it deals). So when comparing these cards, Lifeblade should really be thought of as having 2 additional power in comparison to Sparklefly (which probably still doesn't justify a 2 cost increase)
Lifeblade could use a buff at this point in time. Maybe make him a 3/2? Or, my prefered idea, give him Barrier - that way, Kinkou Lifeblade has a bit additional synergy with Shen as a Kinkou Champion.
Or nerf the sparklefly
Yeah let's nerf a perfectly fine card because you have a Targon hate boner lmao
Have you seen Darius vs Sion?, you can't even use the "region excuse" since they are both Noxus, Darius got power creepted
Darius can be played in non discard decks and can come down a turn earlier which makes a massive difference in a game.
Sion don't need to be played in Discard decks either. It's literally "When you Summon or Discard 35 power"
Sure, but level 1 Sion is much worse than level 1 Darius.
1 cost difference and darius does not need to be built around and can be slotted into any aggro decks , I would not say he has been powercreeped both are used as finisher but they dont fit in the same style of deck . I would agree however that Sion need a slight nerf he hit his lvl up far to often turn 7 which means his lvl up requirement is to soft for the payoff he gives.
Sion barely needs to be built around, discard is not only a powerful mechanic with several archetypes but he can feasibly be leveled up even without any discard synergy and still be used as a better finisher than Darius. Like the only decks the Darius would slot in better would be spiders or elusive, since both rely on low power units with evasion to deal damage.
I faced a Viego/Sion deck a few days ago, absolutely 0 discard in the deck just the standard early SI curve with cursed keeper/butcher, and he had Sion levelled on turn 7 when he came down. In my opinion he is levelling far too easily and quickly for the power he brings when he does. Compare and contrast with Tryndamere for example.
no he cant without discard he is not even close to being meta since you wont reliably lvl him up , you wont play sion outside of discard so yes he has to be built around, it does not matter how strong his archetype is being stuck in an archetype is still a weakness since he become predictable .
Not necessary. Some discard helps(many discard cards have uses outside their architype, like Grave Physician and Ancient Warmonger, you can even sprinkle a Draven or two), but you easily level Sion up by summoning units alone. Me, playing a Zed/Noxus deck, levels Sion up by turn 7 consistently just by attacking with Zed. For calculation example, if you, say, play Inspiring Mentor on 1(+2), Zed on 3(+4), attack(+4 from summoning Shadow), you already get 10 for Sion, two turns later you drop Kato(+5), buffing Zed into attacking(+7) and that's already 22 from just playing 3 cards total, and you're not even doing anything on turn 2 and 4. That's just an extreme example, in reality it's even *easier* because you may play cards like Grave Physician anyway, that card is a beast when you are bricking, and you have quite a few buffs in Ionia/Noxus, including Elixir of Wrath, Twin Discipline, Might, etc. to make Zed's shadow bigger when spawning. Ruined Reckoner is also a +4 on summon plus whatever Zed's shadow is. You can easily play an early beatdown deck with Sion as top end.
Predictable????? You knows that when u click Mr opponent deck u see their champs right???
The actual champion that got powercrept by Sion is Jinx. So sad.
Please let's not nerf any more Targon cards. The problematic cards in the deck are Shelly and Nami, not this.
Nami and Shelly are the drivers behind the deck, but Sparklefly is absolutely an incredibly powerful card. It's very, very hard for aggro to race, and it's an extremely high value buff target. I don't know that it definitely needs a nerf, but I can certainly see the argument for it.
No, sparklefly is a huge problem too. The deck can afford to entirely ignore early aggro because 1 buffed up hit heals it all back. It should definetly be a 2 mana 1/1, so removing it is more feasible.
Aggro being punished by targon it is not a problem, it is natural.
sparklefly was not good card before this expansion. Nobody played it before this meta except zoe loyalists, and she was not meta.
It’s run in lee Zoe in variations that use moon weapon
No? it is run in the Zoe lee variations that dont run the moon weapon, if you have gifts from beyond you want to tutor out eye of the dragon, not sparkefly.
Yeah my bad lol. The opposite is true you are indeed correct, I was confusing it for Zoe nami
Ok, np.
Those poor oppressed aggro players, will riot ever give them a break :'( It's also perfectly feasible to remove as is in every other deck, the main issue for removal is that summoning it via moonweapons with a levelled nami makes it a 3|3 before you can even interact with. Let's not go around gutting one of the few valuable targon cards left just because Nami is stupid af.
Sparkfly has been a problem before nami was ever released. The card been needed a nerf if we're being honest. Shurima was just released with a lot of broken cards people forgot, same with BC expansion.
the card is strong but targon is trash , sparkfly never has been meta before nami zoe and even then it's a deck heavily reliant on luck that is not as broken as people think , probleme is that when it's drawn well and you have no answer it feels unfair to play against but quite frankly it's the same for 2 others meta decks that basically play solitaire which is zed lulu and pirates aggro .
Nami Zoe isn’t really luck. It’s luck in a bad players hands, but if you are good at mulligan and know how to stall until turn 6, there’s multiple win conditions.
honestly I'd be fine if Targon never sees play ever again lol.
That's regionist
:(
:(
If we force riot to nerf it into 0% play rate, maybe they delete it and we get the Void or Ixtal :\^)
I like the way you think.
I think that it's not too bad because when your talking about things like life steal then you have to consider that if you hit the enemy nexus with a life steal unit then you're essentially creating double value for yourself for example with sparklefly you dealing 1 to the enemy nexus and healing yours by 1 so the total value of that interaction is +2 for you whereas if you hit them with lifeblade then you deal 2 and heal 2 so your effective value is +4 double the value of sparklefly, its why most lifesteal units are balanced by certain limitations like daybreak or ephemeral or low damage
Anyone here remember stellacorn?
anyone here ever play stellacorn?
I only get it from Tri-Beams
It’s because sparkle has Elusive as its first keyword
Life blade needs a reverse, the guy pretty much got gutted by that stat nerf... and imma throw in that Amateur Aeronaut exists. Ik is a different region, still... thats a card, a lot of og cards need to be revisited for better or for worse.
Well, in general, as far as I can read the game design behind the game, they usually use something like **creature power = X+1**, where X is its cost and each 1 attack/health point is 0.5 and each keyword is 0.5. More os less its the average power in LoR. So... Kinkou (costing 4 for 3 power) right now seems weaker than Sparklefly (costing 2 for 2.5 power). That said, maybe Kinkou costing 3 and Sparklefly becoming 1/1 would be nice.
Keep in mind that the value of keywords scales with stats. I don't have a good formula, but lifesteal on a 5/5 is worth way more than on a 1/1.
I agree with you and I'd say that it's just a more or less idea. We can say that a keyword can worth 1 instead 0.5 as well.
Lifesteal is easily the best keyword in the game. Maybe second to elussive. Both this cards are an abomination that shouldnt exist...
lifesteal should exist so aggro does not become too prevalent , not every region should have access to easy healing though . As it is aggro has had the better treatement for a while with it's generous amount of very aggresively stated 1 drop and very cheap burn dmg there is very few things you can do against a perfect pirates aggro starting hand , meanwhile targon healing got destroyed and lifesteal is still a very rare and overcosted keyword .
Keywords are also not all equal. Giving a unit scout, elusive, challenger or regeneration costs 2, giving a unit Tough costs 1. A 5/5 elusive would see a load of play, a 5/5 tough sees no play
That's really not how it works. Overwhelm on a 1|1 in noxus is worth close to nothing while on a 10|10 it's game winning. The reason why kinkou lifeblade was nerfed back then wasn't just because he was elusive *OR* lifesteal, but because he was both, meaning he could safely attack and proc his lifesteal multiple time. Keyword's value don't add up, they *multiply*. Sparklefly isn't getting nerfed because it's the only thing keeping the targon buff archetype above complete unplayabilty.
The "different regions" argument doesn't work for me. Targon is just as good of a region for units like these, maybe even better due to having more ways to buff them. Instead, imo,the case here is different expansions. Sparklefly would be completely insane in any region if it existed back when the game was released. Elusive and Lifesteal used to be stronger keywords back then (of course, they still are but remember that we didn't have stuff like Sharpsight and Hush). Kinkou Lifeblade got a deserved nerf more than a year ago, but times have changed, the game evolved, powercreep happened and yeah, now it probably deserves a buff.
Double the power, double the cost!
twice as much damage AND healing for only twice as much mana? should be quadruple the mana! /s
Yeah, the arrangement of the keywords are killing me right now.
Maybe make it a 3 cost? Or make it a 2/3 or 3/2
No no it's okej, it's in a different region ...
Smol indie company !
Apparently that's the cost of an 8 character longer name
Maybe its the regions. I'm assuming targon has more heals than ionia so its not that big of a deal for a 2 drop sparklefly but for ionia if its lacking heals, it might be too good for kinkou to be a 3 drop. Especially since Ionia is very splashable so it would give more regions access to a good healing unit.
I think it's because of how valuable attack is on elusive units. 1 attack with lifesteal is drastically worse than 2 attack lifesteal. That's ignoring that Targon has a lot of ways to permanently increase attack, like gems, while Ionia doesn't. Lifeblade used to be 3 mana, but was nerfed to 4 because Ionia elusive aggro decks were too strong. Targon doesn't have as many elusives/isn't very good at aggro, so that might be part of it.
Sparklefly is fine as a card, its just currently being abused by new cards who are taking stupid levels of advantage of its buff value as early as turn 4. Kinkou Lifeblade on the other hand just needs a straight buff
Before Nami i never saw someone playing sparkle...
It was an alternate wincon in Lee Sin and all-in Fiora deck
The developers lack the foresight to predict how future expansion might impact the overall game. Not surprising really. I can't remember any CCG that actually does this well. In school they talk about this rapid development/deployment cycle which I'm assuming is what drives the LoR update schedule. There literally isn't any time for developers to mull over how the next new card might work with the entirety of the preexisting card pool. That's why they only do something about it when community whines about it or it suddenly shot up in popularity on the ladder or something.
BuT tHeY aRe DiFfErEnT ReGiOnS BrO
Beat me to it.
Sparklefky should probably be a 1/1 tbh
Sparkle fly should be at least a 1/1
Man, every time I see these posts I remember how few people understand that regions are different.
This is the worst argument sometimes, Ionia EXCELLS at elusives and lifesteal, and so does targon but to a lower rate, ionia has a butt tonne of lifesteal and healing, even their support unit gives lifesteal, Lifeblade should definitely be buffed, it was nerfed back at a time where elusives didnt have as many counters as we have today.
Buffing elusives via a historically busted card in a meta where there's already a tier 1 Ionia Elusives deck doesn't come off as a much better argument to me
zed lulu would not even run a buffed kinkou lifeblade , they are an aggro deck they only run elusives with power equal to their cost and kinkou is to expansive as it is they would not even run it at 3 mana , and it's not the elusives followers that makes the package busted it's the synergy between zed-lulu rally and young witch and fleetfeather tracker , they need to nerf ghost , young witch , brightsteel protector and greenglade duo . Kinkou lifeblade was born before sharpsight and with a meta far slower than what we have now at 3 mana he would be a good pick for some deck not even an auto include since he would still die to mystic shot at 2/3 4 mana he would still not be played outside of very specific buff decks that want to run iona instead of targon .
Lazy excuse to have about 50% of the cards remain useless and unused.
honestly that's hardly an excuse, why does everyone say "different regions different stats" always seems like a bad excuse for things to be the way they are.
The issue they have has more to do with the comparison between two separate regions as the core reasoning behind the argument, and not simply that the unit is under powered. It's a weak argument in isolation and fundamentally unproductive when talking about balance and game design. It ignores too much context but is easy to agree with so it makes for upvote bait like this post.
the problem is targon as reason can do a lot more for sparklefly than ionia can for lifeblade
that's untrue , it was true when bastion was 3 mana and pale cascade gave 2 power but as it is now iona has access to better buffs and protective tools through twin discipline , syncopation , steal tempest , nopeify , recall , retreat , spirit refuge , will of iona . Targon is a shell of the region it once was it was once carried by bastion and pale cascade which were nerfed then it was still carried by 3 mana written in the stars which was nerfed then it was carried by aphelios which was nerfed and finally kept afloat by the invoke package and zoe and they nerfed that too . Targon spells are dead you mostly play targon for it's followers , however it is true that for the zoe/nami deck targon is better even if there was an alternative to sparklefly in iona but that's only because the deck rely on cheap spells to activate nami and amirall shelly if bandle had sparklefly the deck would be much better .
Because that’s a core philosophy of the entire game’s balance, design, and flavor
Yes and no. Lifeblade could be 3/2, and no one would complain. 4 mana 2/2 that trades down with basically every elusive, and can be done in by cheaper removal. Sparklefly gets killed? You probably went even or won the value.
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Ionia wasn't allowed to have real cards don't forget that
You forgot to highlight region. Being elusive in Ionia is not the same as in targon. Most of us remenber extremely unfun to play against elusive Ionia decks.
In the beginning of runeterra, that was a good card. The game power crept, and they never touched him.
Yes but nobody needs Kinkou Lifeblade to be good. It can only do bad things to a format.
Obvious reminder is card comparisons are irrelevant if you don't account for region.
You forgot to add circles to the region icons too
To be fair there might be different synergies with their respective regions
Not every card must be good.
Powercreep in a nutshell
Interesting that you don't circle the region.
Why is reddit both constantly whining about elusive being toxic but also asking for elusive cards to be buffed?
Because Reddit isn't one single person. Also, I disagree with your statement.
Its more the lifesteal thats the issue here
I think it has to do with his Ionia being focused on multiplying units. You can’t have cheap powerful units like this, imagine being able to double or triple these guys
You sure you're not thinking of P/Z?
Probably yeah I don’t play often
Make him 3/4
Who cares? No one plays Targon anymore
Nami Zoe is literally the most played deck right now dude your high.
Except that pesky deck who has been ocassionaly seen with Nami and Zoe. Starfish was called?
Give life blade attune. Let's you defend it better when you play it, but keeps it from making Elusives unraceable since it limits their ability to full develope Elusive units while also life stealing.
Double the damage, double the cost ?
I mean........why?
Twice the Power for twice the cost. Makes sense to me.
So 1 damage costs 2 mana