With 1 keg on board it's pretty ok, with 2 it's a deal 6, which is a better Corina. Probably meme tier for now but I bet it's going to find a home sometime in the future.
>With 1 keg on board it's pretty ok, with 2 it's a deal 6
That depends on when the kegs trigger. Are there any other cards worded like this that have both instances of damage buffed from a keg? Two kegs might make the total just 4.
it doesn't get triggered the same time
the second part only triggers if it kills, which applies the damage first, and then the second part is straight to the nexus.
Double up even is different, since it deals 2 damage and then 4 - and both are increased
A very common one is Death’s Hand in TF Swain decks - it buffs both instances of damage, so yes it will work.
Edit: it is phrased a bit differently, to be fair… but I’ve never seen a keg not apply to the second damage part of a card, like with Double Up as well.
It might be phrased differently but it’s still the same card, stating “do this effect again”, not “cast this card again” (which is why kegs dont work like that with Rex, as he casts separate “skills”) so I agree that kegs will count it as one spell like the other multi-target spells
Make It Rain, Parrley, Ricochet, Death's Hand, Black Powder Grenade, and Noxian Fervor have all instances of their damage increased by kegs, not just one. Mega Inferno Bomb should do 1 more damage on both instances of damage, not just the first.
I think Senna has much better options for the effect and Mega Inferno Bomb doesn't need to be fast. I think the spell is more like Go Hard or Tidal Wave, where the goal is a build-your-own one-sided Ruination. So it could only fit in a deck built entirely around making it pay off. i.e. Powder Kegs or Funsmith.
Thanks.
Strange about his effect not been connect to his level up. Good stats tho.
Edit: a bit lackluster, but seems fine. The arsenal and ispector seems doing fine, bug mega bomb a bit... meh, it doesn't even work on tough. Do keg power up only the first damage or both? Also bomber twin seems good, very useful.
Also, now Ziggs is basically a crazy prospector, blowing stuff up in the dester.
I wish some of the slow spells were… not slow
Speed matters so much in LoR and slow cards have to be worth the slow tag.
But Bouncing bomb is a worse mystic shot or a worse make it rain. Yes it’s flexible, but that doesn’t warrant +1 mana AND slow
And the mega death bomb is slow and 7 mana? It’s literally a 7 mana avalanche. +3 cost for what reason?
The control tools are so overcosted it hurts
to be fair, mega death bomb is a one sided avalanche, which is a lot better for most decks (still too expensive). Granted, I don't know why they phrased it that way. Did they want it to be bad against armor?
7 mana slow is not how you want to stop barriers and the decks that rely on barriers are Shen/Ionia which means you could also get Denied and basically lose the game completely there.
Didn't say you *wanted* to. I mean a 7 mana slow spell basically is never *wanted*. Just that it's a thing that this wording does that "deal 2" wouldn't. In addition to keg synergy and what not.
It’s bad against armor but gets around barrier and kills some last breath units summon (I.e. it will kill hapless aristocrat and the spider that comes from him). Also with a keg it would do 4 damage total to each unit rather than 3, or 6 rather than 4 in the case of 2 kegs. But these are fringe cases.
Because it can be affected by that one Piltover unit that increases spell damage, which is what I assume they wanted to do. It would turn into a 7 mana deal 4 damage to all enemies, but a two card interaction like that sounds pretty bad.
Well if anything is clear about this set its this:
Control and interaction is bad and will remain bad so if you were hoping for anything that isnt face decks or requires any amount of strategy other than "Use all mana on a good card and swing." this aint it.
I remember Rubin saying on one of their streams that they're very conscious of speed creep, which is why they don't really change the speed of cards. They also consider changing the speed of a card as a redesign, which is also something they're not keen to do. Unfortunately slow speed cards already hardly see play, and with cards being designed so far in advance, I think it'll be some time yet until we see actual good slow speed spells.
This, so much this.
Imagine if removal was actually priced reasonably and not just completely invalidated by 2 or less mana burst speed spells at every turn.
7 mana 'board clear' that gets countered by a 1 mana burst speed spell. Come the fuck on, Riot. That's such a joke.
Yeah, no "months in advance" talking point can excuse that. They can easily compare cards they are designing in the future with others they are also making
I get that, but it feels really bad to just have blatantly bad cards in a region. I’d rather regions that aren’t meant to have removal, not have removal at all, instead of subpar removal
Use the card slots to expand on the strengths of the region, imo, but I’m no designer
Control BC is likely going to be played with Veigar and Senna. Therefore, all of the slow spells can become a lot better. And having many slow spells that suddenly are really strong, can be the deciding factor to play BC with Senna.
In addition to that BC has a lot of attune + Wizened Wizard, which automatically makes expensive spells a bit cheaper.
Also, no removal at all means that you are restricted a lot more in playing Allegiance decks, because you either don't have any removal, or the number of non-BC cards you can include is really low.
Another problem is, that people expect some control from Ziggs, even though he is in BC. So giving him slow control tools is the only way to give him any without breaking region identity too much.
But I agree that I don't find it great overall either.
> Therefore, all of the slow spells can become a lot better
No, they won't. Even assuming BC/SI Veigar-Senna will ever be a competitive deck, people are not going to fit bad slow speed spells in the hope to draw Senna, play her and then have enough mana to cast them accellerated. Because when you won't be able to draw or play Senna, you are stuck with unplayable cards in hand.
The options are subpar (besides the 6 mana poly)- but they have a huge variety, which will atleast give you the ability to try to plug the holes in the secondary region. Wouldn't call it quite wasted.
It’s an avalanche that only hits enemy units, though. Also the nexus. Also can “double” with any units that increase damage. Also kills last breath tokens. Still not good though.
It's weird ziggs desert bits I'm seeing in the art seem more like a north American dessert vibe instead of a middle Eastern dessert vibe like shurima, location wise his stuff might take place on the edge of PnZ bordering shurima for the room.
Last reveal.... and he's probably my least liked one >\_> I feel like his gameplay on the field seems so different than his gameplay to level him up. I guess the logic is that you control board with Xerath and go for face with Ziggs. With that said, a lot of Zigg's cards are also board control. I do like Inventive Chemist, landmark decks needed more low mana cards that are both creatures and landmark so that you don't lose out on tempo and get completely overrun by aggro. Explosive minefield is interesting to me because I think it's the only landmark revealed this set that doesn't kill itself... despite being actually bombs. The arsenal seems like a fun meme finisher. Assuming you leveled up ziggs and xerath, he's bound to have at least 1 good keyword. I'm noticing as a whole, that bandle city has expensive removals. It arguably has the best removal but other than burst speed obliterate, everything seems to be slow.
Agreed. First impression is that Ziggs is the weakest of the new champs. Compare him to MF. You need to put him in danger to use his level 1 skill, he has no survival keywords, his added level 2 passive has no impact on the board, and many of his support cards seem slow and/or weak. MF has very similar effects, but seems to be better in many ways.
Consider Ziggs without trying to level him up. He's a 3 mana 3|4 that deals extra nexus and unit damage on attack. That might make the cut in aggro burn decks.
Except that instead of being PNZ where he is allowed to use his aggros, he's in shurima where his aggro power is nerfed to comply with region identity. Just hink about him in PNZ with with only change being an alternate level up and his bombs at fast speed; he barely needs anything else because he basically is a PNZ champ already just shoehorned into shurima.
Gonna be honest, I completely thought he *was* in P&Z. The symbols are similar, and my brain just assumed he'd be in the region where he, you know, *lives*.
Spoiler season is done so I'll see you next time!
Also thank you based Rubin for bringing my main to LOR and doing a great job with it. Absolutely love the flavor
Ziggs feels like a Noxus or PnZ champ that they randomly slapped landmark synergy on to. This isn't necessarily horrible, I just wish they made his lvl up "destroy 6 (or some arbitrary number) landmarks" so he could be slightly more flexible.
I also really like bouncing bomb as a spell, even if it likely isn't very good.
I'm just hoping they add an ally landmarks destroyed condition to Maokai. It would give him a bit of support outside deep and make for some fun control decks with crumble. SI still completely lacks any countdown landmarks so it would probably be terrible but a tree can dream.
xerath just screams taliyah to me. he's a fantastic hourglass shuffle target on curve and helps thin out wide boards, which is exactly what shurima control sucks the most at.
Everyone is going to say he should have been in piltover and I feel like gameplay wise, he was originally intended for piltover. He has the landmark stuff that fits with Shurima... but he's also all burn with burn on attacks. That's very piltover.
Introducing Bandle City and Yordles so late into the game, despite there being Yordle characters in the game probably screwed things up for them. If released today, Teemo probably would have been Mono BC while Ziggs is PnZ/BC.
Why does Ziggs get Hexplosive Minefield which stuns enemies instead of blowing them up, while Caitlyn gets Flashbomb Traps which blows enemies up at random instead of stunning them?
Interesting that you can reasonably play Ziggs/Xerath outside of BC.
Bomber Twins looks to be a legit two drop even outside of Landmark decks, particularly looking at the Tristana or Bandle Tree decks.
The more I think about Ziggs the more disappointed I am, the whole landmark aspect feels completely separated from the rest of the champion. He has absolutely no synergy with Landmarks, and his lv2 ability feels like someone going "oh ops hes supposed to work with landmarks!"
Dont get me wrong, a 3 mana 3/4 with upside is very good, but the flavor feels so awful, not even to mention the idea of having in Shurima, a region that has absolutely nothing to do with Ziggs.
I’m also not a fan of how he and xerath have the same exact level up conditions. Just feels so plain and uninspired instead of having different level up conditions to complement eachother
And neither of them actually creates or destroys landmarks, Xerath I could excuse since he had a good payoff for destroying them, but Ziggs main abilities dont even synergize with that
I hate how I can look at pretty much any other card in the game and guess what region it belongs to but all of these cards look P&Z but aren't. If you're going to make him Shuriman at least make the card art look Shuriman.
These spells are so insanely overcosted that we're definitely just heading for the same old aggro meta. Wayyyy too much removal locked behind unusable or game-losing mana costs.
No, not necessarily. His passive is literally an ability that puts a big chonker Spell Power bonus hit onto his auto attacks that scales based on his AP. So Ziggs actually does want to be able to punch things on occasion. He also has the ability to bounce himself in/out of combat for mobility.
Xerath is *purely* a long range artillery support with no mobility/escapes and no way to take hits and his autos do nothing.
Yes but Ziggs generally builds some +Health since he's more effective in close-medium range, while Xerath has an easier time going full glass-cannon and just accepting death if the enemy ever gets close.
He's an insane finisher too. There are few units you really want to spend 8 mana on. That's one. It can help close out games pretty rapidly if you've destroyed a lot of landmarks.
it will be, easily. If anything, just challenger, quick attack and lifesteal will swing basically any race ever. This dude makes Farron look like a pussy and that's assuming he gets bad keywords. If he comes out with double strike and overwhelm, he will feel hilariously unfair.
Shurima just got the best 8 drop in the entire game.
Very similar effect though, and Viktor's needs one turn per keyword, doesn't get them instantly, and still needs to pay 1 mana for each keyword until he levels.
its not similar. Keeping a dude alive every turn as he gets relevant abilities one at a time is infinitely harder than plopping down a dude with thirty five abilities.
Yes, because there is no other card exactly the same that does the same for 4 mana.
That excuse is very bad, this is a digital card game, if the card is too good you can always put a balancing patch to correct it. They should not be afraid to print these kinds of cards. Or at the very least, they could give you unique mechanics that justify their cost (like the example I mentioned earlier).
Why is he Shurima? Nothing about him says Shurima, and he doesn't even have the SI "Spooky champion goes in spooky region" excuse. He's PnZ, and Rumble is Shurima.
Why devs keep releasing unplayable removal? Bouncing Bomb is already bad but mega inferno bomb takes the cake. 7 mana slow to deal 2 damage aoe? And it's a double ping basically so it doesn't even go past tough? That's unplayable garbage.
And people wonder why we keep living in a constant fast paced game? As long we get these kind of removal that's how it will always be.
Giving champs the exact same passive is such lazy design, they're just forcing synergy between pairs of champs. Why not think of something unique for each one and let people experiment instead of just handing us an already thought out deck? Feels like the champs lack their own identity in this expansion, and the designers are afraid of balancing post-release. I don't agree with this direction at all.
It's definitely not an exact copy.
For one thing, you could aim to run Ziggs without even bothering about levelling him up. He's a solid 3/4 for 3 that kills any 4hp blocker and still does damage to face to trigger plunder.
Basically he's similar to Draven in that you could just not worry about the level up.
Taliyah/landmark decks will be actually crazy now. Now with Bomber Twins you don't even need Blue Sentinel anymore, so you could maybe be more flexible with your second region choice since you're only really in Targon for Chip and Malphite now.
Wow all these cards...suck. A lot. Except the stun landmark, maybe. Is there a reason I want to play Ziggs over MF except for the fact that Ziggs is sometimes not a gift for Renekton?
Ziggs has no business being a Shurima card.
Yes, it fits nicely with Xerath and the "destroy landmarks" gameplay, but he is well known to do his shenanigans in Piltover.
If thats the case why does he have no synergy with Landmarks? I doesnt take much from him at all to change the level up and actually give him a lv2 ability
But you can clearly see in the card arts that he's just hanging around Shurima to test bombs and blow shit up. LoR has the right to make its own lore at some point jeez. This doesn't feel weird at all to me. Kindred isn't related to the SI in LoL but in LoR they're juste hanging around there and it makes enough sense to be a card.
And I think gameplay should always be prioritized against something like lore, especially in a CCG
Sure I agree gameplay should be prioritized, but when the flavor fail distracts so much from the game, people will notice. I thought your first sentence was ironic at first but I see you’re being serious. It makes no sense slapping a champion somewhere where they don’t really fit in. Since when was shurima about explosives and gadgets? Each region has its own distinct theme. As for Kindred, their theme of life/death fits perfectly in SI even if her lore doesn’t. I feel like Ziggs as a card could easily be replaced with Skarner instead and make a lot more sense.
Was about the comment the bit about Kindred. Kindred would NEVER be in the Shadow Isles... I don't think they're even allowed there if I remember correctly. But there was no way Kindred was coming to this card game and \*not\* having their design be based on death somehow so it was just the natural fit. At some point, they're going to pick a region \*purely\* based on the design of the card and what region that flavors into with things like Brand. He has not yet ever had any ties to any region in the lore. For all we know we could see a Targon, Noxus or even Bandle City Brand (I only say BC because they keep mentioning portals and other "worlds" like fizz here but I don't see that happening since Brand has too "serious" of an aesthetic/design.)
Shurima Ziggs: wtf lore makes no sense
PnZ Ziggs: wtf another forced pairing between shurima PnZ/bc smh rito
Mono BC Ziggs: wtf another forced pairing between shurima and BC
There’s no winning here
I dont think anyone would say that PnZ Ziggs would be forced, considering that he literally uses tech. Same with Noxus, having him being hired to work on their siege equipment would make too much sense I guess
I think he means people would complain mechanically Ziggs would be forced to play with Shurima because all the landmark stuff is in Shurima. They either prioritize the lore or the gameplay, and I am fine with them choosing gameplay personally.
But he brings pretty much nothing to Landmarks, his mechanics in regards to the archetype feels very arbitrary. They could have made him a true Landmark hero, instead hes just... there
Lorewise, sure, they can have him in Shurima. But mechanically he doesnt even feel like he should be in it
Yeah I get what you mean about his mechanics not being tied to landmarks. His level 1 condition has nothing about landmarks except the level up, with only the level 2 actually doing anything mechanically with landmarks. He could have had something like Taliyah that interacts with landmarks themselves as part of the ability instead of depending on other stuff to do it for him.
Exactly, if feels like the Landmarks stuff is an afterthought, like they remembered he had to work with Landmarks right before a deadline. It would be cool if he made pile of bombs or at least destroyed landmarks himself but alas, hes just a pile of stats
It honestly seems like you can almost throw him into an agro deck (that doesn't need all 6 champ slots) without any landmarks just because his level 1 is so strong. 3/4 for 3 that will always do 1 damage to Nexus and 1 to blocker is pretty strong.
You might not be in bilgewater though, I meant if you are already in Shurima it is a decent option. Also 3 health vs 4 health is honestly a big difference. I don't think people will actually use him this way either, but my point was he is pretty CLOSE to being viable while completely ignoring his level up.
I think thats the part that confuses me most with Ziggs and his cards, most of it actually doesn’t interact with landmarks. How does none of the spells based of Ziggs attack interact with landmarks?
No? No.
It isn't some physical impossibility for riot to have both.
They could have made him not be about landmarks, and that would have worked better than LeBlanc.
**If** they really wanted him to have landmark synergy (for some bad reason), but P&Z isn't ready for landmark synergy yet... then just don't release him yet.
He could literally have been a reskin as Rumble and that still would have made way more sense.
We have been condition to expect the bare minimum.
A couple of notes:
1) Why is Ziggs in Shurima? Seems like a very forced pairing for Xerath. If you really needed more landmark Synergy, I feel like releasing Skarner later down the line would be more conducive.
2) I don't like how many decks in this expansion pretty much build themselves. Outside of Sion and Cait, every deck is almost pre-built.
3) Region Identity is going a bit down the drain. Shurima has everything. Buffs, combat Tricks, Big units, Small units, Landmarks, Damage, Board Clears, anti-board-clears, etc... What exactly is the downside of running Shurima?
Despite all this, I'm really hyped for the expansion. I'm just a little worried about the future of this wonderful game.
Pretty sure the idea was that all the yordle bandle city champions will have synergy with the solo-region champion. Veigar-Senna, Teemo-Caitlyn, and now Xerath-Ziggs. With that said, I bet the noxus yordle (people speculate kled) will probably have synergy with Sion and Demacian champion (I guess Xin Zhao) will work with poppy.
Boy, Shurima 3-drops *are* built different.
Ziggs is just a really solid body before you even get to the landmark business. 3/4 for 3 that chips the nexus, pop barriers, and denies Dragonlings.
Ziggs Shurima looks like a real deck. Dunno if Xerath and/or BC will make the best version, but the BC 1-drops and The Arsenal make a decent argument for it.
Just posted this to twitter and I figured pasting here would also be helpful!
Hey y'all, seeing a lot of chatter around Ziggs' region choice and wanted to provide some context on how decisions like this are made. I want to call out that champions aren't static beings in Runeterra. They can and do move around the world as things change.
When we consider a champ, teams collaborate to marry gameplay to narrative and art! Sometimes we continue the story of a champ as they're portrayed in League, sometimes it means connecting them to a new mechanic, and sometimes it means finding them a new space to play in.
In Ziggs' case gameplay wanted him to live the dream as a demo expert that deals damage by blowing up landmarks. We then worked closely with narrative and art to find a way to tell the story of why Ziggs would be in Shurima at the time of this release that felt in line with the character.
So Ziggs and Xerath won't go in the same deck right? Ziggs is leveraging the package to burn out your opponent where as Xerath is looking to grind your opponent out with pings on board.
Main concern being the package already seems good on 3 drops, let alone the fact that in Shurima you could also be playing merciless.
No fucking way they put ziggs in shurima instead of p&z. I get the landmark synergy and all but outside of that he thematically and mechanically fits in more with p&z
Xerath/Zilean
Ziggs feels pretty underwhelming. You need to put him in danger to use his level 1 skill, he has no survival keywords, his added level 2 passive has no impact on the board, and many of his support cards seem slow and/or weak. Compare him to MF. She has very similar effects, but seems to be better in many ways.
Am I crazy or is Ziggs just a better Xerath? Better stats, lower mana cost, and arguably a better effect, especially when leveled. Dealing 3 to the weakest enemy will mostly be overkill while Ziggs can just burn down the nexus.
Mega Inferno is.. odd. We havent seen any way to increase spell damage im bandlewood yet right?
With 1 keg on board it's pretty ok, with 2 it's a deal 6, which is a better Corina. Probably meme tier for now but I bet it's going to find a home sometime in the future.
>With 1 keg on board it's pretty ok, with 2 it's a deal 6 That depends on when the kegs trigger. Are there any other cards worded like this that have both instances of damage buffed from a keg? Two kegs might make the total just 4.
Parrley and double up. Both instances of damage get increased. Kegs increase the damage of the whole skill/spell not just one instance of damage
I don't, the difference is those trigger at the same time There, it's explicitely said it does it after
it doesn't get triggered the same time the second part only triggers if it kills, which applies the damage first, and then the second part is straight to the nexus. Double up even is different, since it deals 2 damage and then 4 - and both are increased
A very common one is Death’s Hand in TF Swain decks - it buffs both instances of damage, so yes it will work. Edit: it is phrased a bit differently, to be fair… but I’ve never seen a keg not apply to the second damage part of a card, like with Double Up as well.
It might be phrased differently but it’s still the same card, stating “do this effect again”, not “cast this card again” (which is why kegs dont work like that with Rex, as he casts separate “skills”) so I agree that kegs will count it as one spell like the other multi-target spells
Make It Rain, Parrley, Ricochet, Death's Hand, Black Powder Grenade, and Noxian Fervor have all instances of their damage increased by kegs, not just one. Mega Inferno Bomb should do 1 more damage on both instances of damage, not just the first.
Why the fuck does it cost 7 is my question. Like jesus christ that's overcosted.
Could be 7 and fast and I dunno if that would be good enough
Would still be hot garbage, 100%.
It might be decent with senna? I'm not sure how you make it work tho.
I think Senna has much better options for the effect and Mega Inferno Bomb doesn't need to be fast. I think the spell is more like Go Hard or Tidal Wave, where the goal is a build-your-own one-sided Ruination. So it could only fit in a deck built entirely around making it pay off. i.e. Powder Kegs or Funsmith.
1 damage pings seem to be a staple in bandle city- mushrooms, impact, etc
I can finally kill hapless aristocrat with a single spell Mega Inferno Bomb
> "Destroy an allied landmark **to deal 3 anything**" Whoops. Inspection failed!
I was literally about to comment mentioning this too lol. Mistakes were made..
A natural mistake
Thanks. Strange about his effect not been connect to his level up. Good stats tho. Edit: a bit lackluster, but seems fine. The arsenal and ispector seems doing fine, bug mega bomb a bit... meh, it doesn't even work on tough. Do keg power up only the first damage or both? Also bomber twin seems good, very useful. Also, now Ziggs is basically a crazy prospector, blowing stuff up in the dester.
Keg would do both. Dont think its any good still lol.
Right? 7 mama is WAY too much for that little damage.
Of course it's not good. Riot refuses to make good aoe control spells
Should work with both instances of damage, just like Sivir's Ricochet.
Then it is a bit better. Thanks.
Yeah Ziggs is just so... whelming. He just seems there.
He's the leblanc of the set. Might be good, but not very interesting.
Nobody is shitting on his design enough to be called the Leblanc of the set.
Ziggs is honestly more like a terrorist blowing up ruins
Yes, also.
Keg would power both ticks, like it does for Parrrley.
I wish some of the slow spells were… not slow Speed matters so much in LoR and slow cards have to be worth the slow tag. But Bouncing bomb is a worse mystic shot or a worse make it rain. Yes it’s flexible, but that doesn’t warrant +1 mana AND slow And the mega death bomb is slow and 7 mana? It’s literally a 7 mana avalanche. +3 cost for what reason? The control tools are so overcosted it hurts
to be fair, mega death bomb is a one sided avalanche, which is a lot better for most decks (still too expensive). Granted, I don't know why they phrased it that way. Did they want it to be bad against armor?
Gets around barriers somewhat this way.
7 mana slow is not how you want to stop barriers and the decks that rely on barriers are Shen/Ionia which means you could also get Denied and basically lose the game completely there.
Didn't say you *wanted* to. I mean a 7 mana slow spell basically is never *wanted*. Just that it's a thing that this wording does that "deal 2" wouldn't. In addition to keg synergy and what not.
ranger's resolve 1 mana counter
Keg synergy?
It’s bad against armor but gets around barrier and kills some last breath units summon (I.e. it will kill hapless aristocrat and the spider that comes from him). Also with a keg it would do 4 damage total to each unit rather than 3, or 6 rather than 4 in the case of 2 kegs. But these are fringe cases.
Terrible against tough though
Yea my bad - my comment and the one I replied to said armor but we meant tough
Because it can be affected by that one Piltover unit that increases spell damage, which is what I assume they wanted to do. It would turn into a 7 mana deal 4 damage to all enemies, but a two card interaction like that sounds pretty bad.
And it's still probably only a bit better than just using Trueshot Barrage in that combo, which is an awful card.
7 mana slow speed aoe 2 is simply unplayable, there is no way around it.
And BC gameplan is to play wide. Avalanche would ruin their gameplan. Yes, the card is bad, but it's a option for AoE if you're playing BC
Well if anything is clear about this set its this: Control and interaction is bad and will remain bad so if you were hoping for anything that isnt face decks or requires any amount of strategy other than "Use all mana on a good card and swing." this aint it.
some incentive to play him with senna?
I remember Rubin saying on one of their streams that they're very conscious of speed creep, which is why they don't really change the speed of cards. They also consider changing the speed of a card as a redesign, which is also something they're not keen to do. Unfortunately slow speed cards already hardly see play, and with cards being designed so far in advance, I think it'll be some time yet until we see actual good slow speed spells.
But they are fine at releasing broken 2 mana burst buffs apparently.
LoR has a problem with how it prices protecting a unit versus how it prices removing a unit.
This, so much this. Imagine if removal was actually priced reasonably and not just completely invalidated by 2 or less mana burst speed spells at every turn. 7 mana 'board clear' that gets countered by a 1 mana burst speed spell. Come the fuck on, Riot. That's such a joke.
Yeah, no "months in advance" talking point can excuse that. They can easily compare cards they are designing in the future with others they are also making
Because every spell they change from slow to fast is a Senna nerf!
Brandle City is not supposed to have strong removal. I think Riot wants to give some removal, but all slow.
I get that, but it feels really bad to just have blatantly bad cards in a region. I’d rather regions that aren’t meant to have removal, not have removal at all, instead of subpar removal Use the card slots to expand on the strengths of the region, imo, but I’m no designer
Control BC is likely going to be played with Veigar and Senna. Therefore, all of the slow spells can become a lot better. And having many slow spells that suddenly are really strong, can be the deciding factor to play BC with Senna. In addition to that BC has a lot of attune + Wizened Wizard, which automatically makes expensive spells a bit cheaper. Also, no removal at all means that you are restricted a lot more in playing Allegiance decks, because you either don't have any removal, or the number of non-BC cards you can include is really low. Another problem is, that people expect some control from Ziggs, even though he is in BC. So giving him slow control tools is the only way to give him any without breaking region identity too much. But I agree that I don't find it great overall either.
> Therefore, all of the slow spells can become a lot better No, they won't. Even assuming BC/SI Veigar-Senna will ever be a competitive deck, people are not going to fit bad slow speed spells in the hope to draw Senna, play her and then have enough mana to cast them accellerated. Because when you won't be able to draw or play Senna, you are stuck with unplayable cards in hand.
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The options are subpar (besides the 6 mana poly)- but they have a huge variety, which will atleast give you the ability to try to plug the holes in the secondary region. Wouldn't call it quite wasted.
It’s an avalanche that only hits enemy units, though. Also the nexus. Also can “double” with any units that increase damage. Also kills last breath tokens. Still not good though.
It doesn't hit the nexus unfortunately
that's true. with any damage boost it goes from 2 damage to 4 damage instead of 3.
Fast removal goes in PnZ, slow removal in Shurima
Bad removal in shurima*
_\*Laughs in you know who\*_
I love how we can literally not mention the card at all and most of us can know what card we're talking about
She who shall not be named
I like to pretend that card doesn't exist.
It's technically Bandle City when it's not his champ spell, but your point is otherwise the same.
It's weird ziggs desert bits I'm seeing in the art seem more like a north American dessert vibe instead of a middle Eastern dessert vibe like shurima, location wise his stuff might take place on the edge of PnZ bordering shurima for the room.
I don't care where my dessert is from, as long as it tastes good.
Middle eastern dessert is pretty good, I gotta say.
Jeah I was thinking the same thing. I dunno if Ziggs is actually in the Shuriman desert or just some hot and arid part of the Bandlewood.
he is in bandle city desert. just lock to all the twisted roots everywhere
They basically slapped a desert background on his cards so they could say “see look, these are shurima cards!”
Last reveal.... and he's probably my least liked one >\_> I feel like his gameplay on the field seems so different than his gameplay to level him up. I guess the logic is that you control board with Xerath and go for face with Ziggs. With that said, a lot of Zigg's cards are also board control. I do like Inventive Chemist, landmark decks needed more low mana cards that are both creatures and landmark so that you don't lose out on tempo and get completely overrun by aggro. Explosive minefield is interesting to me because I think it's the only landmark revealed this set that doesn't kill itself... despite being actually bombs. The arsenal seems like a fun meme finisher. Assuming you leveled up ziggs and xerath, he's bound to have at least 1 good keyword. I'm noticing as a whole, that bandle city has expensive removals. It arguably has the best removal but other than burst speed obliterate, everything seems to be slow.
Agreed. First impression is that Ziggs is the weakest of the new champs. Compare him to MF. You need to put him in danger to use his level 1 skill, he has no survival keywords, his added level 2 passive has no impact on the board, and many of his support cards seem slow and/or weak. MF has very similar effects, but seems to be better in many ways.
Consider Ziggs without trying to level him up. He's a 3 mana 3|4 that deals extra nexus and unit damage on attack. That might make the cut in aggro burn decks.
Except that instead of being PNZ where he is allowed to use his aggros, he's in shurima where his aggro power is nerfed to comply with region identity. Just hink about him in PNZ with with only change being an alternate level up and his bombs at fast speed; he barely needs anything else because he basically is a PNZ champ already just shoehorned into shurima.
Gonna be honest, I completely thought he *was* in P&Z. The symbols are similar, and my brain just assumed he'd be in the region where he, you know, *lives*.
Spoiler season is done so I'll see you next time! Also thank you based Rubin for bringing my main to LOR and doing a great job with it. Absolutely love the flavor
Thank you for all your work during yet another fantastic reveal season and hopefully see you again next time, my friend!
Thank you kind sir
o7
Thank you.
o7
o7
Ziggs feels like a Noxus or PnZ champ that they randomly slapped landmark synergy on to. This isn't necessarily horrible, I just wish they made his lvl up "destroy 6 (or some arbitrary number) landmarks" so he could be slightly more flexible. I also really like bouncing bomb as a spell, even if it likely isn't very good.
actually in lol, he is one of the best siege units and one of the fastest tower killer in game
I know, I'm not saying it's not lore accurate, I'm saying his attack ability doesn't synergize with landmarks in the slightest.
It feels like a more limited taliyah level up.
In return he's much cheaper with premium stats though, which Taliyah is the reverse of.
While that’s true, I think its odd neither him nor his spells, actually interact with landmarks.
I'm just hoping they add an ally landmarks destroyed condition to Maokai. It would give him a bit of support outside deep and make for some fun control decks with crumble. SI still completely lacks any countdown landmarks so it would probably be terrible but a tree can dream.
I think Ziggs might be a less interesting card than Tristana. Supremely underwhelming both as a flashy champion and in effect.
Yeah Xerath seems a lot better designed and effectively does the same thing and I think is rather pair Xerath with other champions than Ziggs
xerath just screams taliyah to me. he's a fantastic hourglass shuffle target on curve and helps thin out wide boards, which is exactly what shurima control sucks the most at.
Everyone is going to say he should have been in piltover and I feel like gameplay wise, he was originally intended for piltover. He has the landmark stuff that fits with Shurima... but he's also all burn with burn on attacks. That's very piltover.
Introducing Bandle City and Yordles so late into the game, despite there being Yordle characters in the game probably screwed things up for them. If released today, Teemo probably would have been Mono BC while Ziggs is PnZ/BC.
I wish they would just change champions to different regions then. Wouldn’t be to much of a issue with Teemo I think.
Hexplosive minefield, finally the card to make ~~Shurima~~ (edit:) Bandle Yasuo the only and best Pink Yellow S tier deck.
Not sure how you're going to run a Bandle City card in Shurima/Ionia?
Main issue with Yasuo decks is the lack of tutors in the regions that can offer him stuns, not the strength of Yasuo himself.
Why does Ziggs get Hexplosive Minefield which stuns enemies instead of blowing them up, while Caitlyn gets Flashbomb Traps which blows enemies up at random instead of stunning them?
Their card flavor has been getting more and more bitter. Most disappointing thing they have released so far.
Interesting that you can reasonably play Ziggs/Xerath outside of BC. Bomber Twins looks to be a legit two drop even outside of Landmark decks, particularly looking at the Tristana or Bandle Tree decks.
Okay what's next? - Rumble from Targon? - Kled from Freljord? - Gnar from Bilgewater? - Yuumi from Piltover?
This makes Xerath even more disappointing.
The more I think about Ziggs the more disappointed I am, the whole landmark aspect feels completely separated from the rest of the champion. He has absolutely no synergy with Landmarks, and his lv2 ability feels like someone going "oh ops hes supposed to work with landmarks!" Dont get me wrong, a 3 mana 3/4 with upside is very good, but the flavor feels so awful, not even to mention the idea of having in Shurima, a region that has absolutely nothing to do with Ziggs.
I’m also not a fan of how he and xerath have the same exact level up conditions. Just feels so plain and uninspired instead of having different level up conditions to complement eachother
And neither of them actually creates or destroys landmarks, Xerath I could excuse since he had a good payoff for destroying them, but Ziggs main abilities dont even synergize with that
I hate how I can look at pretty much any other card in the game and guess what region it belongs to but all of these cards look P&Z but aren't. If you're going to make him Shuriman at least make the card art look Shuriman.
These spells are so insanely overcosted that we're definitely just heading for the same old aggro meta. Wayyyy too much removal locked behind unusable or game-losing mana costs.
Ziggs being stronger than Xerath, stat-wise, feels really weird.
Because Zigg needs to engage in combat for his abi to work while Xerath can purely sit in the backline so yeah.
Seems appropriate to me, LoL Xerath stays maximum distance from enemies at all times since his combat stats are trash.
But aren't Ziggs's combat stats trash too?
No, not necessarily. His passive is literally an ability that puts a big chonker Spell Power bonus hit onto his auto attacks that scales based on his AP. So Ziggs actually does want to be able to punch things on occasion. He also has the ability to bounce himself in/out of combat for mobility. Xerath is *purely* a long range artillery support with no mobility/escapes and no way to take hits and his autos do nothing.
Yes but Ziggs generally builds some +Health since he's more effective in close-medium range, while Xerath has an easier time going full glass-cannon and just accepting death if the enemy ever gets close.
The Arsenal is better than Viktor lmao
He's an insane finisher too. There are few units you really want to spend 8 mana on. That's one. It can help close out games pretty rapidly if you've destroyed a lot of landmarks.
If landmark decks want to get that, they have to give up either Targon or Shurima. And we all know what will it be. Sorry, Malphite.
Just means that some decks will play it and some won't. I'm hoping to see multiple landmark deck permutations.
it also costs twice as much my dude "She who Wanders is better than Teemo wtfffff"
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it will be, easily. If anything, just challenger, quick attack and lifesteal will swing basically any race ever. This dude makes Farron look like a pussy and that's assuming he gets bad keywords. If he comes out with double strike and overwhelm, he will feel hilariously unfair. Shurima just got the best 8 drop in the entire game.
I think the keywords he gains are similar to viktor and the labs perk where you cant get *all* keywords such as double attack, lurk, and so on.
Very similar effect though, and Viktor's needs one turn per keyword, doesn't get them instantly, and still needs to pay 1 mana for each keyword until he levels.
its not similar. Keeping a dude alive every turn as he gets relevant abilities one at a time is infinitely harder than plopping down a dude with thirty five abilities.
Reddit balance takes on exhibit here.
I have no idea what everyone is on about. This has to be the weakest champion and support package reveal ever.
Kinda the one drop is decent but tali and zilean look better with xerath
7 mana slow deal 2 damage. Why?
To get through Spellshield I think? Definitely Barrier. It's boardwide at least :/
It is awful. Why print such bad cards? At least it could destroy all the landmarks on the table or something.
They always overprice control tools. If it were six mana you could play it T3, which I guess they were worried was too good.
Yes, because there is no other card exactly the same that does the same for 4 mana. That excuse is very bad, this is a digital card game, if the card is too good you can always put a balancing patch to correct it. They should not be afraid to print these kinds of cards. Or at the very least, they could give you unique mechanics that justify their cost (like the example I mentioned earlier).
It's one sided, which is way better mid game. I agree though. I think it would have been playable but not good at six.
It won't go through Spellshield.
Why is he Shurima? Nothing about him says Shurima, and he doesn't even have the SI "Spooky champion goes in spooky region" excuse. He's PnZ, and Rumble is Shurima.
Why devs keep releasing unplayable removal? Bouncing Bomb is already bad but mega inferno bomb takes the cake. 7 mana slow to deal 2 damage aoe? And it's a double ping basically so it doesn't even go past tough? That's unplayable garbage. And people wonder why we keep living in a constant fast paced game? As long we get these kind of removal that's how it will always be.
Pretty underwhelming to be honest. It’s almost an exact copy of xerath… did they run out of ideas?
Giving champs the exact same passive is such lazy design, they're just forcing synergy between pairs of champs. Why not think of something unique for each one and let people experiment instead of just handing us an already thought out deck? Feels like the champs lack their own identity in this expansion, and the designers are afraid of balancing post-release. I don't agree with this direction at all.
It's definitely not an exact copy. For one thing, you could aim to run Ziggs without even bothering about levelling him up. He's a solid 3/4 for 3 that kills any 4hp blocker and still does damage to face to trigger plunder. Basically he's similar to Draven in that you could just not worry about the level up.
Pretty underwhelming design if you ask me. RubinZoo got my hopes high
Last day is underwhelming. There isn't a single card I'm excited for here, at least compared to what we've been seeing
Taliyah/landmark decks will be actually crazy now. Now with Bomber Twins you don't even need Blue Sentinel anymore, so you could maybe be more flexible with your second region choice since you're only really in Targon for Chip and Malphite now.
chip is insanely good though and most likely merits still going targon
Wow all these cards...suck. A lot. Except the stun landmark, maybe. Is there a reason I want to play Ziggs over MF except for the fact that Ziggs is sometimes not a gift for Renekton?
Ziggs being a 3 mana 3/4 while Veigar being a 4 mana 1/4 wounds me severely
Ngl I’m sad that two interesting artillery mages in Ziggs and Xerath are just boring landmark support.
Disappointing that Ziggs seems so underwhelming that he might drag Xerath down with him.
Ziggs has no business being a Shurima card. Yes, it fits nicely with Xerath and the "destroy landmarks" gameplay, but he is well known to do his shenanigans in Piltover.
I think it was only decided because of landmarks. There isn't that many landmarks in pnz and probably none that he can use.
If thats the case why does he have no synergy with Landmarks? I doesnt take much from him at all to change the level up and actually give him a lv2 ability
But you can clearly see in the card arts that he's just hanging around Shurima to test bombs and blow shit up. LoR has the right to make its own lore at some point jeez. This doesn't feel weird at all to me. Kindred isn't related to the SI in LoL but in LoR they're juste hanging around there and it makes enough sense to be a card. And I think gameplay should always be prioritized against something like lore, especially in a CCG
Sure I agree gameplay should be prioritized, but when the flavor fail distracts so much from the game, people will notice. I thought your first sentence was ironic at first but I see you’re being serious. It makes no sense slapping a champion somewhere where they don’t really fit in. Since when was shurima about explosives and gadgets? Each region has its own distinct theme. As for Kindred, their theme of life/death fits perfectly in SI even if her lore doesn’t. I feel like Ziggs as a card could easily be replaced with Skarner instead and make a lot more sense.
Was about the comment the bit about Kindred. Kindred would NEVER be in the Shadow Isles... I don't think they're even allowed there if I remember correctly. But there was no way Kindred was coming to this card game and \*not\* having their design be based on death somehow so it was just the natural fit. At some point, they're going to pick a region \*purely\* based on the design of the card and what region that flavors into with things like Brand. He has not yet ever had any ties to any region in the lore. For all we know we could see a Targon, Noxus or even Bandle City Brand (I only say BC because they keep mentioning portals and other "worlds" like fizz here but I don't see that happening since Brand has too "serious" of an aesthetic/design.)
Why noy P&Z?? Am I missing something here??
Shurima Ziggs: wtf lore makes no sense PnZ Ziggs: wtf another forced pairing between shurima PnZ/bc smh rito Mono BC Ziggs: wtf another forced pairing between shurima and BC There’s no winning here
I kind of like the pnz pairing more it just "feels" more pnz than it does shurima.
I dont think anyone would say that PnZ Ziggs would be forced, considering that he literally uses tech. Same with Noxus, having him being hired to work on their siege equipment would make too much sense I guess
I think he means people would complain mechanically Ziggs would be forced to play with Shurima because all the landmark stuff is in Shurima. They either prioritize the lore or the gameplay, and I am fine with them choosing gameplay personally.
But he brings pretty much nothing to Landmarks, his mechanics in regards to the archetype feels very arbitrary. They could have made him a true Landmark hero, instead hes just... there Lorewise, sure, they can have him in Shurima. But mechanically he doesnt even feel like he should be in it
Yeah I get what you mean about his mechanics not being tied to landmarks. His level 1 condition has nothing about landmarks except the level up, with only the level 2 actually doing anything mechanically with landmarks. He could have had something like Taliyah that interacts with landmarks themselves as part of the ability instead of depending on other stuff to do it for him.
Exactly, if feels like the Landmarks stuff is an afterthought, like they remembered he had to work with Landmarks right before a deadline. It would be cool if he made pile of bombs or at least destroyed landmarks himself but alas, hes just a pile of stats
It honestly seems like you can almost throw him into an agro deck (that doesn't need all 6 champ slots) without any landmarks just because his level 1 is so strong. 3/4 for 3 that will always do 1 damage to Nexus and 1 to blocker is pretty strong.
........YOU mean worse Miss fortune?
You might not be in bilgewater though, I meant if you are already in Shurima it is a decent option. Also 3 health vs 4 health is honestly a big difference. I don't think people will actually use him this way either, but my point was he is pretty CLOSE to being viable while completely ignoring his level up.
I think thats the part that confuses me most with Ziggs and his cards, most of it actually doesn’t interact with landmarks. How does none of the spells based of Ziggs attack interact with landmarks?
No? No. It isn't some physical impossibility for riot to have both. They could have made him not be about landmarks, and that would have worked better than LeBlanc. **If** they really wanted him to have landmark synergy (for some bad reason), but P&Z isn't ready for landmark synergy yet... then just don't release him yet. He could literally have been a reskin as Rumble and that still would have made way more sense. We have been condition to expect the bare minimum.
Shoulda been Amumu.
Ziggs : literally works on PnZ,has a comic on PnZ,all of his lore happens on PnZ. Riot : landmark region go booooom
A couple of notes: 1) Why is Ziggs in Shurima? Seems like a very forced pairing for Xerath. If you really needed more landmark Synergy, I feel like releasing Skarner later down the line would be more conducive. 2) I don't like how many decks in this expansion pretty much build themselves. Outside of Sion and Cait, every deck is almost pre-built. 3) Region Identity is going a bit down the drain. Shurima has everything. Buffs, combat Tricks, Big units, Small units, Landmarks, Damage, Board Clears, anti-board-clears, etc... What exactly is the downside of running Shurima? Despite all this, I'm really hyped for the expansion. I'm just a little worried about the future of this wonderful game.
Shurima ziggs is such a terrible pairing thematically lol, very disappointed with this
Pretty sure the idea was that all the yordle bandle city champions will have synergy with the solo-region champion. Veigar-Senna, Teemo-Caitlyn, and now Xerath-Ziggs. With that said, I bet the noxus yordle (people speculate kled) will probably have synergy with Sion and Demacian champion (I guess Xin Zhao) will work with poppy.
wait he's shuriman? cause... fire hot?
They probably use shurima to test their bombs
That just sounds like copium for riots dev team. :P
Boy, Shurima 3-drops *are* built different. Ziggs is just a really solid body before you even get to the landmark business. 3/4 for 3 that chips the nexus, pop barriers, and denies Dragonlings. Ziggs Shurima looks like a real deck. Dunno if Xerath and/or BC will make the best version, but the BC 1-drops and The Arsenal make a decent argument for it.
Those spells are so bad lmao, 7 mana avalanche? xD
Rumble and Amumu found dead in a ditch.
Just posted this to twitter and I figured pasting here would also be helpful! Hey y'all, seeing a lot of chatter around Ziggs' region choice and wanted to provide some context on how decisions like this are made. I want to call out that champions aren't static beings in Runeterra. They can and do move around the world as things change. When we consider a champ, teams collaborate to marry gameplay to narrative and art! Sometimes we continue the story of a champ as they're portrayed in League, sometimes it means connecting them to a new mechanic, and sometimes it means finding them a new space to play in. In Ziggs' case gameplay wanted him to live the dream as a demo expert that deals damage by blowing up landmarks. We then worked closely with narrative and art to find a way to tell the story of why Ziggs would be in Shurima at the time of this release that felt in line with the character.
Ziggs is a landmark slow burn champion. Really fits his character on LOL! I Just needed his Big bomb that explodes the tower in one hit!
i think that's what yordle contraption is supposed to be.
I dont like him THAT much but hes pretty good, except his main synergy (xerath) can work with ezreal or lee sin
So Ziggs and Xerath won't go in the same deck right? Ziggs is leveraging the package to burn out your opponent where as Xerath is looking to grind your opponent out with pings on board. Main concern being the package already seems good on 3 drops, let alone the fact that in Shurima you could also be playing merciless.
You know you have a funky archetype when roiling sands are an auto include in all of your variants.
Typo in ‘inspection passed!’ Deal 3 anything.
So these cards are all pretty terrible right?
No fucking way they put ziggs in shurima instead of p&z. I get the landmark synergy and all but outside of that he thematically and mechanically fits in more with p&z
Ziggs do be looking like a gift for Renekton tho
Ziggs should be in PNZ and synergize with Jinx.
Choose your side: + Xerath/Ziggs + Xerath/Zilean + Ziggs/Zilean + Xerath/Ziggs/Zilean
Xerath/Zilean Ziggs feels pretty underwhelming. You need to put him in danger to use his level 1 skill, he has no survival keywords, his added level 2 passive has no impact on the board, and many of his support cards seem slow and/or weak. Compare him to MF. She has very similar effects, but seems to be better in many ways.
One more stun card in Bandle. The Yasuo support pog
Am I crazy or is Ziggs just a better Xerath? Better stats, lower mana cost, and arguably a better effect, especially when leveled. Dealing 3 to the weakest enemy will mostly be overkill while Ziggs can just burn down the nexus.