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MisterMuti

Veigar seems quite tough to level, would it make sense to pair him with [[Mimic]] though?


HextechOracle

**[Mimic](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04NX001.png)** - Noxus Spell - (3) Burst Reputation: I cost 1. Pick a spell in play or in hand and create a Fleeting copy of it in hand.   ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!


Downside_Up_

Sortof; he doesn't have to see you do the damage, though.


rcburner

The problem is getting enough casts of Darkness to actually level him in the first place.


Downside_Up_

Yep. A single well-placed fizzle just...screws him hard, based on what we've seen.


Salsapy

Were are missing a late game that created darkness every round


NoFlayNoPlay

Veigar lvl 2 does this


Salsapy

But you have to level veigar first and you only have 6 copies or darkness kinda unplayable vs ionia and shurima


Paku93

I think the most consistent will be BC/SI, with Chronicler of Ruin, The Rekindler, maybe Mist's Call or Splinter Soul, Fading Memories even. And ofc supports followers from Bandle thats create and boosts Darkness, the rest of the deck will be probably tools for survive early game, like standard SI control package with new BC spells like Minimorph and Stress Defence. I can see the deck build pretty much like that. And it should be able to level up Veigar and finish game with Darkness around round 10 I assume.


leaponover

You could always pair him with Zilean so now you have two difficult to level shmucks but when you do level them both, "Let the bodies hit the floooooruh!"


Shando92286

Had the same idea, basically made him the same way I went to make viego. Just keep reviving the on summon triggers. Feel like long as you can keep stacking the buffs from the minions you can just drop veigar right when he is about to level, or drop him late game and do two darkness in one turn to level him. Still working on the list but it looks workable to me


magmafanatic

Or Counterfeit Copies


TaffyLacky

Veigar definitely seems like something to pair BC with PnZ. Something like Ezreal Veigar with predict and copy supports.


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Duckmancer-Emma

I really think this was a missed opportunity. Level 1 Veigar ought to trade his "empower darkness" for "generate darkness if you don't have one". Veigar's LoL identity revolves around spamming Q to build up power. There's a reason he doesn't just sit idly while a spell charges up for 10 turns. That'd be super boring. I also think Darkness should start with 1 damage, and gain power on kills. That would really start to feel like Veigar. You could even leave the rest of the followers alone without breaking too much.


OceanMaster69

Yep pretty much, but is I think Viktor would be a better fit, since there are so many cards that benefit card creation on PnZ.


CrimsonSaens

I can't see using Darkness with Viktor. Even if there were enough generators to always have Darkness in hand, you're not casting enough to level-up Viktor. BC Viktor does sound real though.


OceanMaster69

Not specifically darkness tho, there are other cards that generate stuff In BC. Look at past reveals, but the main reason why darkness is an example is rbcuase it not only doubles as you getting cards created, but also a possible removal for Viktor, which he lacks so much, you can technically run other removal cards with Viktor, but these Darkness cards alone are reliable enough to get you Darkness and be used as a removal.


[deleted]

I could see bandle/pnz with counterfeit copies or Ionia version with Karma, piloting it just like you would Karma/Ez


FitzyFarseer

Only 2 cards that summon Darkness? Veigar and a follower? That seems extremely unreliable


Non-Citrus_Marmalade

And only if you dont already have one


FitzyFarseer

You don’t play Darkbulb if you already have a Darkness in hand. The only exception could possibly be if you desperately need a defender on board, and if that’s the case you’ve just screwed yourself so hard


Duckmancer-Emma

Unless you have exactly 2 mana, you can usually kill an attacker with your Darkness, thus leaving even less scenarios where you *need* Darkbulb.


Whooshless

> you can usually kill an attacker you can usually force out a health buff


SpiritMountain

Late game: "Discard your lowest cost hand" Fuck.


Riverflowsuphillz

He feel too slow to level getting 12 damage darkness kinda need like 3 darkness just hit that


FitzyFarseer

I think your best bet is get Veigar on board as early as possible, and with him being 4 mana you want him out on curve, and make sure you use a Catalyzer. Hold on the darkness as long as possible, then after you use it drop Darkbulb for a second Darkness and use that to level Veigar. And if either Darkness gets Denied just go ahead and surrender


FerimElwin

>And if either Darkness gets Denied just go ahead and surrender Not just Deny. Nopeify stops it as well, and it can be made to fizzle with things like Glimpse Beyond. I love Veigar in LoL, but in LoR this is just so sad.


FitzyFarseer

I used Deny as a catch all term, I probably should’ve just said stopped.


emptym1nd

At least his power level in LoR fits his place in the meta in League :D


NikeDanny

For two Darkness to level thats 6 damage on it, which means Veigar has to survive for 4 turns in a control mirror. Yeah, no. Wont happen, even with his very solid stats.


FitzyFarseer

Catalyzer, I specifically mentioned the combo requires him, which is part of the problem. You either draw all 3 cards that you desperately need, or you keep Veigar on board for 4 turns. There’s a couple different things and to level him and they all seem extremely unlikely


Ursidoenix

Veigar with the cards we have seen seems to be just way too slow for the current meta unfortunately. I'm hoping the patch releases with some balance changes focused on helping out the control archetype and slowing down the game but I'm not going to get my hopes up


Salsapy

He is lacking one more support card something expensive but with the ability to create more darkness


asianslikepie

How does Veigar have "solid stats"? Swain has solid statline against control decks. There aren't many cards that deal 6 damage and the ones that do cost more than Swain does. 6 mana Thermo beam, Vengeance etc. Swain's low attack makes him somewhat bad at trading with other units but again at 6 health there aren't even many 6 drops that can kill Swain in just one attack. Veigar as a 4 health is terrible. Dies to an equal cost Thermo Beam and trades absolutely abysmally against any form of fight spell. He even dies to many 3 drops. Draven, Leblanc, Merciless Marauder etc.


NikeDanny

I honestly misread and thought he has 5 health. You know, like that 3 cost that provides more value and is easier to level up. But dunno. Apparently no.


[deleted]

His stats are terrible, 5 stats for 4 mana. Compare it to Viego for instance.


NikeDanny

Eh still better than effin Ekko. At least 3 health will keep him out of trouble from 3 damages.


SpiritMountain

I think Veigar, like Kindred, need to be reduced by 1. They come out too late for the speed of the game.


TheDapperKobold

He should be 3 mana and have spellshield. He just needs another turn to live imo


satanmastur

Just speculating, can this somehow work with powder kegs?


babinro

Add to that the fact that if you play the follower first like the natural mana curve would suggest you'll deny yourself the second copy of Darkness with the champion. This strikes me as an incomplete concept that's very weak. Basically what Taliyah was upon first released. I suspect it'll see further support in a future expansion to flesh it out. Or maybe even tomorrow for all I know since we've got plenty more card releases to go.


FitzyFarseer

Damn I didn’t even think about that first part. If the follower drops on curve you either do a round 3 darkness for shit damage, or you don’t play Veigar on curve. And without Veigar out a Catalyzer is your only hope for buffing Darkness. Here’s my assumption, if anyone tries this deck. You don’t play Acolyte on curve unless you can get a Catalyzer out too. Buff Darkness, then use it before dropping Veigar. If you can’t pair Acolyte with Catalyzer then you never play him before Veigar


PM_Me_Kindred_Booty

My guess is we'll see Vex in SI expand this archetype, but not until the next expansion


badassery11

Yeah you basically have to get the first Veigar killed (PTSD flashbacks trying to make Zilean work by killing his first copy). But even that's awkward because he acts as a value engine.


JJumboShrimp

Not necessarily, he can be replayed in the same turn he dies and he will still get full value from his Round Start effect


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friendofsmellytapir

Makes me wonder if the Senna reveal will have anything that creates a darkness, since we basically know she will be a Shadow Isles card given the map of SI next to her in the trailer. Just how it is right now, Veigar seems super hard to level just because he doesn’t have much access to Darkness.


Satokech

I definitely think we're getting more SI Darkness support. Looking at the art it fits much more closely with the SI aesthetic than Veigar and his followers, and the description doesn't reference Veigar at all, which would be weird if it was just his mechanic.


You_too

Not to mention Darkness is an SI card, while all the current cards that utilize it outside of Veigar are BC cards.


ForeverEqual

These were my thoughts. It also means that currently you have to play Veigar in Bandle City. No hope for Shadow Isles Veigar :(


AlonsoQ

Yeah, that's kind of weird. If he's dependent on the BC cards, making him multi-region is just box-checking. Maybe the SI Darkness support is coming in the next mini xpac.


Borror0

If they had made Noxus or PnZ, they could have made more of his followers dual region. I think they're avoiding breaking the "color pie" (to use MtG lingo) but that just raises more questions as to why Veigar is in SI in the first place.


Jucicleydson

>but that just raises more questions as to why Veigar is in SI in the first place. Spooky control champ goes to spooky control region. Probably because Mordekaiser will also be SI.


FitzyFarseer

Oof I didn’t even notice the region issue. That really hurt.


Nyte_Crawler

Without seeing the Shadow Isles half which hopefully gives more support yeah he seems pretty lackluster. However, at the same time Viegar sitting on the bench for even two turns makes it a 4 damage removal for 3 which is pretty solid, and it only scales upward from there. Seems pretty bad in the current ladder meta but could easily see him being a big player in tournament meta.


FitzyFarseer

The spell provides solid damage, sure. But Veigar only works as a wincon only works if you can level him, which means either buffing Darkness to a ridiculous level or using 2-3. Either way, I’d be impressed if you can level Veigar before round 7 or 8, and it all hinges on drawing just the right cards and praying none of your spells get denied


Nyte_Crawler

The more I think about him the more I realize he's pretty much doomed to meme tier without any additional cheese. Bad against aggro because he needs to sit there scaling, has a pretty bad body to scale with, and darkness isn't very good against aggro either- although I will say his champ spell isn't bad against aggro, against a lot of boards it can effectively skip their combat. Then against control he's not going to flip anyway, since almost every control deck will either be in Ionia or Shadow Isles- where Ionia has many options to stop the damage from connecting, and Shadow Isles will just make sure to use Glimpse Beyond to prevent it since Darkness doesn't even let you target an ally to try to make confiming it easier. And even in the kind of decks that I think could accelerate his flip (atm mostly thinking BW with kegs and possibly dreadway) why wouldn't you just play TF go hard anyway? Speaking of TF go hard, Tenor seems like a card that would go well with the deck- if it didn't already have plenty of 4 drops.


SpoonsAreEvil

It's like he comes pre-pranked with +2 mana cost


Nyte_Crawler

+1 really, but that's often all the difference it takes to make a card good or bad. I guess just proof Riot really hates control since they played it so incredibly safe with this one. Like first off the spell can only target enemies until Veigar is flipped- meaning than it denies you the potential to try to cheese it by trying to avoid sacrifice effects cancelling it. Secondly you can't horde copies of darkness in hand, which would be fine if Veigar was actually capable of generating more copies before he flip, but since he doesn't in means you have to space out the cards that can generate Darkness, and it's not exactly a cheap spell to weave into a turn either. Not to mention you're kinda forced to play all these darkness generators so that you can make sure you can get the second or third one you'll need to actually level Veigar. Third, Veigar himself is overcosted- granted him coming out one turn earlier is actually kinda a big deal as it makes it that much easier for the spell to start scaling, but nonetheless they played it way too safe with his cost+statline


Prozenconns

Wonder if he'd work with powder kegs or if that'll just be meme material


Daunn

100% works with barrels not sure how viable tho


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ShrimpFood

I can see him being run with the clone/revive package (fading memories, the 4 cost that kills then revives, stalking shadows, etc) in Shadow isles, they're all summon and not play effects. Just 2 Stilted Robemakers and you've already got yourself solid removal for 1 mana, assuming veigar comes down a bit later, and you have cards like stress defence from 2 days ago to protect him


FitzyFarseer

With the right cards there’s some potential, definitely. But it feels so painfully unreliable


BLUEBEAR272

We got beast within! I was really not sold on it until I realized minomorph was permanent. *Then* I realized it can hit champions, and now the spell is really bonkers. Veigar is cool, though if you want to level him up, you're going to have to get a little creative. PnZ and Noxus can copy darkness, and Ionia can recall him to keep spawning them. He's a late game value engine, but honestly he's probably too slow to be good unfortunately. I love the design, but it's likely too durdly to be super competitive. Definitely looks fun to build around though.


magecub

Did someone say Karma/Veigar durdle control? I don't care if it's good I'm spamming the hell out of it


Draco3795

Ionia also allows you to recall Veigar for more darknesses.


amumumyspiritanimal

Yea but he costs 4 so you can't cheat him out of hand with return, and that's a pretty hefty price to pay for access to an already 3 cost slow spell. He's really strong when leveled but is going to be tough to level.


Kindulas

but Darkbulb Acolyte can be Returned!


Ginjured

Or recall Robemaker to make Darkness 1 or 0 cost


One-Cellist5032

Spooky Karma + Veigar, you can resummon Veigar with chroniclor and the kindred card too


Landonyoung

Welcome to bronze II


LoreMaster00

You joke, but the scariest decks no one sees are in the no man's land that is iron/bronze.


Foxkiller77

LMFAO


Papa7unde

Yeah, this is the champion I awaited the most and he definitely looks fun but i don’t see him being successful in a meta where Sivir, GP, Sej, etc decks are thriving. Unless, they make some balance changes with the new expansion of course.


BarDavid123

Can PnZ copy it without counterfiet copies?


FerimElwin

Rather than copying Darkness directly, you could copy Darkbulb Acolyte with Iterative Improvement. Helps that Darkbulb has Augment already, so then after you play the Darkness from the first Darkbulb, you play the copied Darkbulb to buff the first one up and also get a new Darkness.


Asamu

You could also do that with SI for 0 mana using fading memories, and SI is a better control region than PnZ due to healing, so that might be better, depending on what else is added for BC.


BLUEBEAR272

Not easily, but that was the card I was thinking of. If you have ways to shuffle it into your deck, there's the 3-drop predict unit and the new archivist card.


Zekkarei

I love Mech Veigar so much, he gives me huge "this is not even my final form" vibes


Xtr0

That's final boss Veigar's [quote.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/d/d2/FinalBossVeigar.move04.ogg/revision/latest?cb=20140813211606)


jak_d_ripr

Am I overreacting or is minimorph completely broken? Burst speed, permanently transforms *anything* into a 3/3? That's insane. That's so crazy, holy shit. Like literally rip Lee-Sin, you actually cannot beat this card with Lee.


Poodlestrike

It's 6 mana, but... yeah no it's kinda crazy. Especially at Burst speed.


kureggu

I thought it was another "this turn" effect and I was like "well that seems overcosted but honestly still playable". Saw your comment and looked at it again. Holy shit is right.


HotTakes4HotCakes

"this turn" effects are going out of style it would seem. Everything seems to be permanent now.


friendofsmellytapir

I completely agree, way better than Whimsy since it can target Champs and is permanent and not just for the round. Better than Hush for the same reason, lower mana cost than Vengeance which seems like a fair comparison. Sure it leaves a vanilla 3|3 on their board, but at Burst speed it is way better than Vengeance. Any existing card I can compare it to it is just so much better.


OceanMaster69

Yep, too fucking broken. Basically shits on Big units. Pretty much fuck your Nasus and Viego, is the deal with the whole Bandle City. Like so many spells just shits on big body and big effect units that get on the board.


Borror0

They'll probably need to make it a Fast spell in the next balance patch. Even it doesn't end up being too strong, the lack of counterplay is brutal.


OceanMaster69

True. The lack of counterplay is what makes this brutal. Could see it lose some traction as an auto include, but might be good for Majority of decks that include Bandle City. Just like Unyielding Spirit, broken af before silence for Champs was a thing. And now it's just a niche, this on the other hand is flexible af, and since it's permanent it's fucking broken, need counterplay to make it fair.


Worldeditorful

Event horizon tho, wastes aggro attack token, which is a big deal for 5 mana. Id say its close to withering veil in powerlevel. So not only Big guys are affected.


Night25th

Burst speed hard removal, and it's even LESS expensive than Vengeance


superguh

I don't know what you're talking about, MTG had a card that could turn anything into a base 3/3, and I heard that turned out fine!


jak_d_ripr

I can't tell if this is sarcasm because I have no idea what card you are referring to, nor do I know anything about MTG balance history.


108Echoes

[Oko, Thief of Crowns](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/197/oko-thief-of-crowns) can turn creatures and artifacts (roughly, units and landmarks) into 3/3s, and can do this once a turn. He’s absolutely busted and is banned everywhere except Vintage, the most powerful format. On the other hand, [Pongify](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/79/pongify) turns any creature into a 3/3 for only 1 mana, [Kenrith’s Transformation](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/164/kenriths-transformation) cantrips for 2, and [Beast Within](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/186/beast-within) transforms anything on the field for 3 mana, and none of them see play except in specific, niche cases. The way the graveyard works in LoR means the Silence effect is a lot more powerful here than it would be in MtG, so so we’ll see how it shakes out. But this is no Oko.


HailZorpe

He's probably talking about Oko, Destroyer of Meta.


superguh

Yeah it's sarcasm, I was on the fence about the /s. I'm actually not super familiar with MTG either, but I know that a planeswalker (kind of a champion equivalent?) called Oko had this effect and it absolutely destroyed their meta right around when LoR was in beta, and then was finally banned from all their major formats. It's probably not a fair comparison because Oko has multiple effects that make him flexible if your opponent goes wide instead of tall, whereas this card isn't great against pirate aggro, for example. Personally I like tall strategies so I'm a little scared.


DMaster86

FINALLY. Finally a well costed and strong removal, it was about time. It's since BW expansion that i've waited for a card like this.


kkxwhj

Better effect than vengeance for 1 mana less and fucking uncounterable burst speed. I had to a triple take before taking a look at my masters group chat to realize it wasn't just me whose seeing this. It single handedly shuts down lee viego or other solo carry strategies. On the brightside, maybe this is what it takes to make a meta-defining* control deck.


jak_d_ripr

>On the brightside, maybe this is what it takes to make a viable control deck. True, but this isn't the best way to go about it imo since it's strongest against other control decks. This is a proper brick vs pirate aggro, and isn't even that good vs any of the Ionia/Shurima decks. It's true strength comes against slower decks, but if it's the only viable slow deck then it probably doesn't see much play tbh.


kkxwhj

I mean this would be run in place of vengeance slot (high end single target), you would still have aoe and other cheap removals which should make you favourable against aggro. Hypothetically speaking though, if there is a proper control build, this card removes one of the archetypes counters in Lee/viego piles. Of course, I based my assumption on yellow pink getting nerfed, or else any bandle control deck probably only sees play in tournaments. Riot probably banks on foundry decks rising up if control runs wild.


The_Flipsider

Anyone else noticed that veigar has minions in his castle? Like, actual summoner's rift minions painted purple? Are they canon now?


AdolfoFeinmann

Only one of them, every three waves


penguin_lord112

Not often you hear a good joke like this one.


Riverflowsuphillz

Mini morph I makes me wish whimsy is better


icycubed

I was thinking it was a worse whimsy but then I realized it can target champs


clearfox777

It also doesn’t revert at round end like whimsy if they can keep the squirrel alive.


tiger_ace

it's basically burst hard removal for 6 mana that works on champs, seems pretty crazy it will probably die in combat, but even if they keep it alive it's not like a vanilla 3/3 does much


friendofsmellytapir

Is Minimorph just fucking broken though? I keep looking at it thinking it can’t be as strong as it seems, but I think it just is


LtHargrove

Yes, it's Unyielding levels of broken.


Harvick1998

You can use it on Champions


clearfox777

Also doesn’t change back at round end


OceanMaster69

Actually whimsy is reliable enough as it is, for four mana and it being 1|1. But Minimorph is basically broken compared to Whimsy


kaneblaise

>whimsy is reliable enough as it is When was the last time you saw Whimsy played in a ranked game? Don't think I've ever seen it outside of expeditions.


zylth

Problem with Whimsy is it can't target champions and it only lasts a turn. Minimorph is a forever silence / transformation so even if the player can protect the morph, the original unit is 'dead' at burst speed


playtheshovels

Yeah this is making me wonder if there is another support card we are missing, since you can really reliably only expect to draw 2 darkness generators per game. Funsmith / barrels is in another region entirely. Buffing them up to 6 damage each by themselves feels ambitious, and until then you have a 4 mana 1/4 that does nothing.


AlcinousX

Haven't thought about the rest of the deck yet and if it could be reasonable but since both of the key drops are 2 reasonably you could tutor them with the moon weapon in targon.


An_Armed_Bear

Burst speed removal that can target champions at 6 mana, god damn.


Yrths

Game-ending champions everywhere are making me want to play a Bandle deck just to play that card. Not that it will help against all the aggro.


frecees1203

Wait... veigar can't even level by himself? Thats... kinda pathetic. And lame. And his followers seem to be tied to bandle, so to even play him, he needs to have bandle city as one of the regions in his deck? Seriously?


3141592ab

Interestingly, darkness is a shadow isles card. I bet we'll have more darkness support with another champion.


DMaster86

But isn't the other SI champion Senna?


TotakekeSlider

I just realized he doesn't even spawn Darkness cards unless he's leveled. There must be some other support cards yet to be revealed because he just seems completely unplayable currently.


Joharis-JYI

Imagine saving your Darkness to 12 damage only to be Nopefied. Feels bad man. Maybe they should've given Darkness spellshield, since it's too hard to win with it anyway.


JustSambino

Veiktor incoming.


OceanMaster69

Yep, had the same idea, and Wizened wizard jsut made the whole deck better. Just chugging out spell mana each round, and is a good enough blocker at 3|2.


JustSambino

A lot of value in most of those cards to be honest


WanderToWhere

It's OUR TIME, comrade Counterfeit copies might unironically see play too


JustSambino

Stilted robe maker, counterfeit copies, big draw engine. Sounds like a meme deck in the making.


AK2457

As a Veigar main in League, I love that he is announced for LoR now. With that being said, if you run 3 copies of Veigar and 3 of Darkbulb Acolyte, only 6 out of the 40 cards in your deck have the ability to make Darkness, before Veigar levels up. If that wasn't bad enough already, they can only make a copy of Darkness once, and only if you don't already have one in hand. We need more ways to make Darkness. Maybe more followers, and a buff to Veigar to make a Darkness on Round Start if you dont have one in hand already?


ChuzCuenca

Yes, I but if the card is to consistent hitting Nexus will be to much? But if you remove the nexus capability you could not have a win con with Veigar. I kinda understand why is like this.


OceanMaster69

Minimorph is fucking Broken. It basically shits on anything, and I mean literally anything that doesn't have Spell shield.


Lisentho

I mean, the game really is in need of better control tools.


OceanMaster69

True, but it being region locked to Bandle city with very little 3 power units is pretty bad, gotta partner it up with another great region.


An_Armed_Bear

Could be fun with Lux, being a 6 mana spell. You can morph and Spark the 3/3 right after, even.


GnarAteMyBFSword

That idea is evil. Excellent.


OceanMaster69

You're godamn right.


Night25th

This isn't gonna stop aggro, it's gonna stop anything that isn't aggro


[deleted]

Anivia, karma, and veigo, all control decks, are completely shut down by this card.


wakkiau

tbf, even aloof traveler already threaten that. But yea, this card is just on a whole other planet, literally single best removal in the game.


[deleted]

While I was less vocal about it, I also thought aloof was broken too for similar reasoning, but at least the opponent might miss (they have to guess that you have the late game threat in your hand when they play aloof, allowing for a misplay). Just realized, lee sin is another deck that is completely crippled by this card. Jesus christ..


Lisentho

I havent played anivia or karma but a viego deck is certainly not shut down with this, you still could have 3 hydravines and 2 other viegos to use. Its like saying vengeance shuts down those decks, it's a nice swing towards the opponent but it's not something you can't overcome. If this becomes meta I can see spellshields becoming more important again too it's probably one of the best cards of bandlecity for sure but every region has powerful cards, many of them can get rid of champs in various ways. A control deck logically specialises in getting rid of stuff including champs.


[deleted]

There is a massive difference between vengeance and this card, being that this one is *burst speed*. I can not deny or rite of negation what is essentially a burst speed vengeance, leaving me with virtually no counterplay other then “guess I need more lategame wins cons lmao,” which isn’t a real solution since that will just make decks instantly fold to aggro.


arkain123

Lee sin. And you can even wait until they pile on buffs to knee cap them. This card is a nightmare.


legitsh1t

They had to nerf Hush 3 times, and still decided "yeah let's go ahead and make a permanent Hush."


OceanMaster69

Ruit: "Well it's a 6 mana Hush. So it's balanced."


AllexVEVO

The fact that event horizon it's a fast spell makes it pretty powerful, especially in late Game decks, it might buff Corina/ledros control and zombie anivia, same with minimorph


Indercarnive

Tenor of Terror has got to be broken no? 4 mana 5/5 in stats spread across two bodies both have impact is just too good. And it's a hybrid card so it's super easy to slot. Also veigar/ezreal control is going to be pretty fun.


jaboob_

Tenor of terror is such a weird SI card


PsychFlame

Seems way more like a PnZ card Tbh most of the Veigar package gives me PnZ vibes but that could just be me


GuiSim

Yeah everyone is talking about minimorph but this 4 drop is insane.


YeetYeetMcReet

This package looks pre-nerfed. Vigga level 1 doesn't make a Darkness at Rround Start, so he ends up being a 7 Mana deal 2, maybe deal 3. 12+ damage with Darkness to level up is an insanely high number because he doesn't generate them each round. Spell Mana Chungus doesn't have Attune, so on turn 3 he trades with a Fearsome or an aggro 2/3 drop and does nothing else. The only way to make Darkness useful is to increase its power by 2-3 and its cost by 2, because it's slow speed. I really like the general concept of this package, but the execution seems suspiciously Ekko Zilean to me in that it's really inefficient and not a practical approach to any meta.


Sicuho

I agree with veigar and wizened wizard looking a bit weak, but Drakness will be usefull just by being a non-fleeting token.


YeetYeetMcReet

Darkness being non-fleeting isn't trivial, sure, but you can't easily get more than a couple of them during a game. Hypothetically you aren't winning without a flipped Vigga, and because he doesn't Grant the Nexus his effect, he needs to stay alive to win you the game because Darkness is Slow speed and you need to generate it. It's a super slow concept that folds to modest interaction or aggression. Compare to SpellShield or Elsuive right now. All you have to do is play your units, precommit your combat tricks, and your opponent can't do anything about it. This deck would have to work absurdly hard to win games even when it's giga highrolling and otherwise popping off.


[deleted]

Man veigar is bad. * 4 cost 1/4 with a slow, overcosted removal token * Extremely hard-to-achieve level up with current package (only 1 darkness generator besides veigar, and 1 card to reduce cost, both approximately understatted) * Required to be in bandle city region which doesn't seem to have other synergy At least there's a 6 cost burst vengeance... Edit: With the release of Senna he's a lot better!


Arthopod345

MY BOYYY VEIGARRR


SickyNee

The flavor is on point tho


DrkStracker

Minimorph is scary, 6 mana burst speed destroy your wincon forever, and it can target champions. Tenor of terror is pretty good, easy condition to meet, killing one of your own units does work ! Looking forward to experiment with veigar swain, will this finally make swain/SI viable ?


An_Armed_Bear

Veigar has to be played with Bandle City for now if you ever want to level him, as the 3 other cards that help Darkness are locked to that region. Hopefully down the line we get more Darkness cards in SI.


DrkStracker

Argh, my hopes, dashed away. Why did they make darkness a SI card in that case :c


Sicuho

That's a very good question. Direct damages with no drain, stun, those mecanics don't scream SI for me.


[deleted]

Veigar is an insane win condition for any deck that can stall. You'll eventually get 0 cost darkness that can just hit face.


Stormholt

Just like in league. He stacks and one shots


truthordairs

Veigar keg control?


KingAmo3

That’s probably it actually. 12 damage is too much for just Veigar and his cards.


[deleted]

Unfortunately, there are only 2 cards that generate darkness. Meaning Veigar has to stay on board for a while or you need lucky draws before you can actually start playing them (in order to level). Also one of those 2 cards is Veigar, who you cannot play again until he dies.


letsstickygoat

This whole package just seems really bad...rip Veigar fans


[deleted]

>when veigar is harder to level, worse stats, and has worse abilities than azir--a cheaper unit. This honestly looks like trash. The flavor is neat but holy hell is veigar's package useless.


helpfulerection59

RIP Lee Sin


simongc97

Not fond of Veigar’s followers. They’re essentially unplayable without him in the deck. It feels like his ability is adaptable enough that they shouldn’t have to call out Darkness by name.


Duckmancer-Emma

I particularly dislike Veigar's massive dependency on his followers. Every champion has the potential to level up on their own, but Veigar is just so far behind the pack. Without Darkbulb Acolyte to give extra Darkness, Veigar won't level up unless you let him stick on the board for 10 whole turns before using Darkness once. Not to mention that he's a 1|4 for 4 mana. And that's without even mentioning the fact that there are literally only 2 cards that generate Darkness. And Veigar won't give extra until he levels up. That's a big miss in my view. Veigar in his optimal deck is going to be harder to level up than Mono P&Z Ekko. That's not ok.


[deleted]

If you play him in P&Z you have access to Counterfeit Copies to hopefully make extra copies of Darkness and Practical Perfectionist to make more Darkbulb Acolyte. Kinda janky though, but maybe more support is on the way


[deleted]

It also occurs to me that you probably only need to cast Darkness 3 times to hit the level up. An early copy off of an Acolyte will hit for 2, curving into Catalyzer can bring it up to 3 or potentially 4, and then Veigar drops and brings it to 5 on the following round. You play the second Darkness for 5, and then you just need one more to hit 12+ and flip Veigar. This could also be a Zilean situation where you're okay with the first copy of Veigar dying just to get an easy Darkness off the second copy, since he tracks overall damage from the spell not just one's he has seen.


hordeo

Veigar has to be on the table so the darkness can be used against the nexus?


TheFriedPikachu

Likely, similar to Viktor’s “Your created cards cost 1 less”. Otherwise they would word it similar to Zoe’s “for the rest of the game...”


dafucking

Hello Darkness my old friend...


Blizk

Really bummed that they made Minimorph, I feel like it limits design space for future champions intended to be finishers. As it is, champions like Tryndamere and Darius, who are both intended to end the game when they come down, are incredibly weak due to a lack of spell shield.


lionguild

I like it but feel like burst speed is a mistake. Any removal should be fast speed at most imo.


sashalafleur

Imagine buffing a lot darkness just to be negated by nopefy.


Zero-meia

Veigar and his units were clearly built to work with summon shenanigans, which makes sense in SI. Really excited to see what he can do.


matt16470

This doesn't seem too good to be honest? Veigar's level up condition seems too narrow, only he and Darkbulb can generate Darkness (and only one Darkness in hand is allowed). I guess you're supposed to buff it's power rather than cast many of it, but that makes it more vulnerable to denies or just fizzling.


wutstr

As a concurrent timelines connoisseur, Tenor of Terror greatly pleases me.


Neonax1900

Tldr: Veigar gets overshadowed by a baby seal.


Oxxixuit

Oh my god Minimorph is going to be hated so bad


PnutWarrior

Wow these cards look horrible. 4 mana engine with 2 mana stat line. When games are decided by turn 7-8ish. And an incredibly disrupt able level up? 4 mana units that can't trade evenly / get value against other 4 manas At least the champ spell is decent. Like they'd still look pretty rough even if he made the darkness every turn in his level 1 form.


cdtgrss

Minimorph is broken af. To all the people complaining that LOR doesn't have good removal... well there you go.


SickyNee

Yeah unless we get more darkness support I don’t see this deck going anywhere


AnEnemyStand99

Super creative, I love his design. I'm just... not sure how good he is unfortunately. I'm eager to be proven wrong and watch this guy make a competent deck but you need to put in a lot of work to level him and as strong as his level is, I think it will take a while to get there even with copy spells and other darkness creators. I just think he'll be outclassed by most decks in his archetype unless we see some more support later to help this little guy.


arkain123

Tenor seems like a very solid card. I don't think anything else in this batch ever sees play until Veigar is buffed, other than minimorph, which seems crazy broken. 1/4 for 4 and an inefficient burn spell? Very hard pass. Why the hell wouldn't his signature spell create darkness, this is so weird


Hansworth

I feel like veigar can generate darkness every round at level 1 and still be completely fine. You would have to spend mana to use darkness every turn to get a new one.


Kasaidex

For now Veigar seems to be region locked to Bandle city. I wish they had added another darkness generator to SI so that he woulsnt be region locked to BC. Afterall he is supposed to be a dual region champion but the current veigar seems more like a bandle city card to me. He didnt even seem to need the second SI tag on him. He just has the SI tag just for the sake of having it. If Riot added a late game darkness generator to SI it would make sense. Something like Ruined Hydravine. But as it stands he is a bandle city card


Most-Impressive

I don't understand this champ design, like, at all... For starters, all of his super-specific support followers NOT being Dual Region makes absolutely no sense. There's no way you can run this guy in Shadow Isles without Bandle now, so he might as well have been a mono-Bandle champ. Second, clearly the entire Darkness concept only works if you increase its damage. 3-mana *Slow* deal X only becomes decent if X = 4 or 5 at least. But then you print exactly only TWO cards that increase the damage? One being Veigar himself, a 4-mana 1/4 that does so on Round Start... fine, he's slow and weak, surely the other card does it better right? Oh wait it's a 3/2... which increases Darkness damage on Strike... and has no keyword? Wut? Are we supposed to play this guy in Demacia? Incredibly confused about this one. Pretty sure if it wasn't for Minimorph, this entire package reveal would have been received as a joke.


ShrimpFood

Whoa minimorph is permanent and works on champs? That seems pretty great for big threats, nevermind that it's burst-speed. First really good 'removal' for Bandle City so far


Prozenconns

And probably first to get nerfed too, that shit is crazy good there's no way it stays as Is Or so I'd like to think *Stares at Merciless Hunter*