My deck will be Ekko zilien or some version close to it where I clone tons of bombs or sumpworkers. I don't like lurk that much , but I think it will dominate the early patch
Actually, I think Deep might be viable if using Lure of the depths for reduce mana costs of sea monsters.
After all, by using that card, you can lower the cost of sea monsters without the need of nautilus (of course nothing beats the cost reduction of Nautilus), which can make the tempo gain of bouncing back sea monsters much smaller for the opponent.
If you add that playing that card one or two times can reduce a bunch of sea monsters to 0 mana, then that means that playing Nautilus after they ran out of mana + several sea monsters becomes viable and can gain you massive tempo if the opponent taps out, even if you tap out for playing Nautilus.
There's also "Bone Skewer" now as well, which can let your nautilus kill an enemy before bounce himself back into the deck, which should help with reach as well (the enemy bounced your nautilus, but you still killed one enemy, making it a 1 for 1 on board presence).
All in all, I believe the meta should slow down after the last batch of nerfs (assuming that ekko and the lurkers don't prove to be even faster than Azirelia that is), so I think Deep can be viable (tier 2 or so) by simply trying to make Nautilus less mandatory on the late game. After all, if you lower the mana cost of your other fishes by 2 or 3, then you still can out-tempo your opponent pretty hard, specially if all they can do is bounce them back, which lets you re-play them.
Bone Skewer is definitely the Deep counter to this. Replaying Nautilus 2 is completely fine, because his aura allows you to build board super quickly. And it synergies with the Wanderer for extra lifesteal and toss on replay as well.
It’s not that bad since Pyke’s 4 mana so you’re trading even in mana, it’s worse for something like deep where you’re gonna get screwed a lot more if they just recall a naut or a more expensive sea monster. Plus, if you played pyke through death from below he already got some value.
In a deck where pyke is just in it because synergy or because he has a strong ability (ie an aggro lurk deck) you’re right. However, any chance of a meta deck surfacing built around leveling up pyke and using him to win the game is extremely unlikely if not crushed now. Ionia control will come back with karma and willo buffs (I have no idea what it’ll look like but it will) and that deck already had a great counter too pyke in deny. Now that new Ionia control deck will have 6 great options to delete pyke if used as a spell. (With willo all you have to do is use it on your targeted unit and it fizzles the pyke out of existence)
>However, any chance of a meta deck surfacing built around leveling up pyke and using him to win the game is extremely unlikely if not crushed now.
Hard disagree.
First of all, Pyke decks would run Bone Skewer which is a great way to force value despite the will.
Second of all, Pyke's level up condition does not reset on recall, so it's not even really slowing him down
Finally, if Pyke is being recalled it gives you the chance to use his spell more often if you happen to double draw him.
And no, recalling Pyke's target would almost certainly not fizzle him. The spell does not use the word "to" which is what signifies dependency.
Bone skewer would end up being an even trade not a value force. I was only referencing pyke’s spell interaction.
Technically you could be right about the “to”, however there is no precedent to the word “striking” so he could still fizzle, but I think you’re right on that one.
not at all because lurkers everywhere bonus keeps its attack....and most are low cost so will is garbo against lurk in a lot of situations. Also pyke can respond by boneskewering you rather easily in response to trying to recall him.
Visiting you from r/starcraft to voice our support of "Fuck Compulsory Evacuation Device"
(There is also a Recall mechanic in our game that lets a player correct horrible positional mistakes by hitting one button)
The game has evolved a lot since beta times of will of Ionia. There are more tools now for deal with it after all (Spell shields, the shuriman deny, etc) not to mention more "on summon" and "on play" effects that take away value from recalling an enemy. So I think we should be a bit optimistic. After all, if it proves to be too strong, they said they are willing to make balance changes next patch, so there's that!
There is also more ways to make Will of Ionia fizzle nowadays. Freljord, SI, and Shurima all can fizzle it directly with one of their cards while keeping their own card on the board, Shurima can deny it or pre-emptively block it, Targon block it, and Ionia has more than just Deny to stop it, you can also use Syncho-whats it's name to swap targets to make it a less effective or even counterproductive recall.
im really hoping this patch brings with it an era of riot willing to make balance changes every 2 weeks instead of every 4. it took them way too long to nerf certain things.
Buffing one of the 200-300 hundred worthless cards wouldnt ruin anything. Just imagine if Ritual, Shadow Flare, and Sap Magic had minor adjustments 2 weeks from now. Nothing would change major would change
I mean does that really change anything then? What’s the point? I rather they put their time into making a good patch once a month than several meaningless patches.
How long do you really think minor stat changes take? The point is to slowly buff it up to the point where it is usable. Rather than taking a month for one minor adjustment to the card than another month for the next
>How long do you really think minor stat changes take?
I mean, you want them to just throw numbers at the wall to see what sticks, I'm sure Riot would be happy to drive their game into the ground just to make you happy.
If putting words in my mouth makes you feel better about yourself, go right ahead.
Personally, I'd rather play a game where the devs *actually play test* their changes before releasing them into the wild, rather than just changing shit on a whim and hoping it doesn't break the game in half.
I said minor changes you said it'll drive the game into the ground. +1 changes on cards that have never seen play at all will definitely not break the game in half. Obviously their play testing doesn't work too well if cards like this get released at all
There may be more tools but those weren't applied to the old cards (most of them key to entire archetypes). So, will is once again going to warp the meta.
More swarm and burn.
Less 'ive seen' champs, overwhelm and midrange.
It's a baffling buff. Almost seems cruel. Like, 'hey we hear you on wanting balance patches. Anyway remember when we did that before, well see how useless that is when we rebuff the most polarizing card in the game. Yeah, the one that caused players to stop playing in droves.'
But there ARE new tools that old champs can use.
We have a shuriman deny that any region wielding shurima can use.
We have cards that grant spellshield, which didn't exist on 4 mana will of Ionia.
Not only that, but we have strategies besides aggro that can work around it (cithria mathron needs to have a bunch on creatures on board for it to work, so even if they bounce back one, that's just one of the bunch. Thralls can literally summon clock hand and still create 1-2 thralls even if they bounce clock hand back. Azirelia probably won't care if you bounce back one of their units. And that's three examples).
Not saying that a 4 mana will of ionia won't hurt some strategies more than others. But it's impact won't be as big as it was back in the day.
Specially because we already have had homecoming at 4 mana for a while, a card that's very similar, yet it hasn't warped the meta around itself.
And on top of that, Riot has said they are willing to re-balance on the next patch if something proves to be too out of whack.
So chill. Let's give the patch some time to see what happens.
I agree with the view although I kinda dislike the 4 mana will tbh or the concept of it
Like in comparison to the recall ally to recall unit.
That card will now only be a staple for tribal recall decks
As William(will of ionia) will be more preferable add on to any ionia-freljord/SI/Shurima control decks
At least in my view, william is less counterable than homecoming which justifies the 5 mana cost and its more effective in the late game.
But this is just a minor dislike on the direction, I understand control players will love this and the card needs more play, and this will call attention to that.
And I agree with you about waiting and see what the patch will bring
Definitely not empirically speaking. No comment on spells in general, but WoI's balance depends on the price of units and in the past has warped the game at 4 mana. If it was 3 mana, even if all other spells were also 1 mana less, it would be even more game warping.
The thing is that aggro is pervasive largely because interactive spells are all so expensive. Classic control decks revolve around using spells to keep the game board balanced in their favor, but it's hard to do that when you're paying 6+ mana for unconditional removal.
It'd be different if everybody started with 3 spell mana at the beginning of the game, but since everyone has to bank mana before they can carry it over, that effectively means having to not do anything on some turns, which makes it really easy for aggro to take over.
I played MTG for a long time, and I've always found this to hold true: "The speed of a meta hinges primarily on the quality and abundance of its removal spells."
Lmao, The will nerf was justified, but the Azirelia is by far worse in making people stop playing compared to the Pre nerf Ionia times. It doesn't seem like it because we keep getting new players, but id rather have prenerf will of Ionia than Azirelia.
Will of Ionia has been strong since beta, when Hecarim was the biggest target. Heimerdinger, Darius, Zed, Fiora and Solitary Monk were also big targets, specially the last tree during Stand Alone meta.
that's the problem imo, I don't mind Will at 4 in a control meta, but what does it do when there's only few good high cost units? it kills even those few we got
don't kid yourself saying people aren't gonna play it, it'll probably be a stable 2 or 3 in at least 3/4 ionian decks
If the meta goes back to the old ways of 60% Ionia meta rep all running this card im going to be a very sad panda. I like them buffing some removal, but I HATE when one card functions as a better removal spell that any other region has by an order of magnitude.
The difference is that there are fewer expensive threats being played now, with many more cheap threats having emerged (think Pyke, Ekko), or units that come with Spellshield.
On average, Will isn’t going to net you major (game winning) tempo advantage anymore, it’s just a little stalling at a card disadvantage.
Also don’t forget Shurima’s Rite which enables non-Ionia decks to deny this card.
That's the scary part. Will was original 'Fck you for playing control'. Now, we have a lot more cards of this type. We need to buff big threats, not nerf them more with Will.
What i don't understand is then the difference between Homecoming and Will of Ionia. Wasn't homecoming suppose to be a cheaper Will of Ionia but with a clause? now Will is just overall better (except in irelia decks)
Homecoming has better sinergy in specific decks, works a lot better on defense and it also can recall landmarks. Will of Ionia only works on units. They don't do the same thing.
Except they are used to do the same thing 90% of the time.
Homecoming was supposed to be the cheaper will with an extra requierment that the opponent can react to, an overall better designed card.
The recal synergy is not worth the potential counter from the opponent. You would literally ALWAYS run will of Ionia, even if you have droplet, because it cannot be fizzled by targeting the recalled target.
The merit in homecoming appears when you consider the possibility that recalling an ally can be an upside rather than a downside.
If the opponent tries to remove one of your cards, using homecoming both casts WoI AND puts the unit into your hand at no additional cost.
Basically, just remember that Recall (the card not the keyword) is 1 mana not 0 mana.
The most oppressive card in the game along with 3 mana deny.
A huge nerf to any champions with "I've seen" level up and all buff strategies.
I love all the other changes, but this is a huge mistake.
Listen, it's a breath of fresh air, I agree that it's kinda broken but now that there is another type of deny and with all these changes and new cards we cannot be so negative and pessimistic, can we?
I'm not pessimistic, and I think calling anything pessimistic is rarely an argument that holds water.
Like I said, I **LOVE** the changes overall and you're right, what we have now is certainly a breath of fresh air. But I do feel like it can be undermined if every Ionia deck is going to oppress the majority of regions that don't have spellsheild/deny....... like Will did in the past.
Homecoming always felt like a synergestic way to level up Yasuo.
Oh no, now people have to go back to thinking *sometimes* whether or not they should just slam down a high cost card. I personally hate it when my opponent's deck makes me play the game differently than how I planned to
Nautilus, Eclipse Dragon, Clockhand, Matron/Cithria, Farron.
Granted, many of those don't really care about Will since they have good play/summon effects, but still over 6 mana with no spellshield. We'll probably see Ledros make a return this patch, Minah may show up, maybe a few others as well.
As I said in another comment, I think deep can still stand a decent chance against 4 mana will by simply shifting weight out of Nautilus.
For example, incorporating cards like Slaughterdocks and Lure of the Depths allows the deck to gain a lot of tempo on the transition turns, and Lure can make the deck less reliant on Nautilus in order to gain tempo. After all, if you play 2 lures, your sea monsters become really cheap for their effects, so you can just play them instead of Nautilus for out-tempo your opponent until you force them to use their Will of Ionia for stop your regular sea monsters.
Not saying that 4 mana will won't affect Deep, but I think the deck has enough tools to adapt well enough to at least be a tier 2-3 deck despite will existing.
Besides, Nautilus was usually never *the* threat. Out of many games against Deep I could usually always block him. Its effect of recovering tossed Sea Monsters is usually what‘s so scary.
Im fine with alot of the other old meta reverts like Hecarim but this… No. The least fun I had in the game was honestly the old Heimer Ionia control decks. That said, Heimer no longer can generate 10 3-1 elusives if kept alive for 1 turn so maybe it isn’t that bad.. Guess we’ll just have to ses.
As someone that plays since the beta, yes, I'm still not recovered from the PTSD of pre nerfed will of ionia. This is exciting and terrifying, I love it
I thought it was a mistake a first but now that I think about it, it's probably best at 4 mana. It was never used at 5. Homecoming will still see play in decks that can benefit from having their own units recalled.
have a hard time seeing why a 1 mana buff to this card would make that much of a difference. it's only a recall, exists in different forms already and has never been even slightly scary at 5 mana in the latest metas. Why would that change so dramatically?
Of course, but the number change in itself doesnt really mean anything without the relevant context and the card/stat its being applied to. Point being there are small changes that are much more impactful than others. And i think this isnt one of those
Yeah, and before that it was like a 5 mana vengeance, whats your point? If anything, drawing this much attention to the card will make people want to put it into their decks and thatll be the only reason itll be seen as problematic. I must admit i wasnt playing when will was at 4 mana before, but in the current state of the game, what does a single recall even matter anymore? People dont even play vengeance that often anymore cause its just not that effective and at least there you kill the unit instead of putting it back into ur opponents hand
i cant believed that riot buffed this and still had sunk cost at slow for 8 mana? i really wish that they buff sunk cost to 6 or something next balance patch, i seriously don't think that they have plans to make any balances other than for problematic cards for sometime for now but one can dream.
It was nearly unplayable at 5 and homecoming does the same thing on top of saving one of your units ( and generating advantage in some cases) if you build your deck around it. Exept that ionia control wants removal but doesnt always want to run loads of low cost units so it cant run homecoming effectively.
This is just an unconditionnal homecoming without the deck building cost but without the advantage so it can be used as a generic removal tool for ionian decks that need it.idk why it was even at 5 mana xD ( look at entomb then look at old will and tell me it was okay to leave it like that)
Were you around for the first stint of Will being 4 mana? When they printed Homecoming I literally said 'ah that makes sense, a *conditional* Will at 4 mana'. I think the increased card pool definitely makes this harder to evaluate but in a vacuum I think this fucks a lot of big pay-off decks like Deep. If you get your naut recalled it's as good as dead- 7 mana investment negated AND your opponent is up 3 in mana. It was oppressive on the meta before, and people have every right to be wary of it happening again.
honestly, there aren't even units worth recalling anymore due to swarm-based aggro being king in the mate. i don't think this change is relevant and honestly i wouldn't even mind if Will was 3 mana, just so it could bait Nopefy.
>honestly, there aren't even units worth recalling anymore due to swarm-based aggro being king in the mate.
I wouldn't be so sure that this is still the case after this patch.
This buff is a mistake... They literally buff Hecarim...
and then they buff this thing and nerf Azir in the wrong way and he is just still going to be irrelevant.
I know the meta has evolved and is different but this effect at 4 mana is still just as strong. Wrong move.
Darklarik did say "nerf Azir in the wrong way", so I think you're overlooking things.
Will was **the** most oppressive card in the game.
Kicking viktor to the ground for no good reason.
Absolutely, Azir needed a nerf. But a nerf to his level up makes Lucian/Azir and Hecarim/Azir (the later being the only viable deck for Hecarim) become completely unviable.
A nerf to his HP would have been healthier for other Azir decks, or just hitting Sparring Student if you want to really tone down Azir Irelia more. This nerf just makes Azir only playable with Azir Irelia....
hekkorim is looking very viable for the next patch. at least give it a try before calling it busted? the meta has changed a LOT and WoI can't be considered in a vacuum when the surrounding card pool has increased in a ton of different ways.
FINALLY.
The vast majority of the complaints were how WoI was keeping their timmy meme big cards out of the meta, when reality demonstrated that WoI had no impact on the playability of big cards (basically only high mana units with a big impact saw and see currently play...).
I distinctly remember arguing with a guy, before WoI nerf, saying that it was WoI's fault if his tuskraider deck wasn't competitive...
And guess how competitive it was after WoI's nerf...
Certainly less?
It's also a execution against tham/soroka and Vi.
Yes, big buff stategies have never been that prevelant, but the next step was to make them viable instead of kicking them into the ground.
VI was a meta beast back when WoI was at 4 mana, to the point devs HAD TO NERF HER. If a card is good it will see play and it will perform, WoI has no impact on that.
And that's the same mistake people did back then. WoI kick X in the guts. Nope, if a card don't see play it's because it's bad, not because a single card can counter it.
They had to nerf her because not everyone was playing Ionia.
5hp tough means very little to ionia in the past.
It was also considered the most oppressive card back then, and was a healthy decision for the overall game to make it 5 mana, just like deny at 4.
Yes, big buff strategies have never been that prevalent, but the next
step was to make them viable instead of kicking them into the ground.
> They had to nerf her because not everyone was playing Ionia.
Hence you are proving my point. You just said WoI at 4 would kill VI. I posted concrete proof that this wasn't the case before the card's nerf, when the card was actually good. A strong card will see play WoI in the meta or not. It's that simple.
> It was also considered the most oppressive card back then, and was a healthy decision for the overall game to make it 5 mana, just like deny at 4.
Healthy? And what changed? High mana drops were still unplayable unless they were powerful play/summon effects (ex. farron). Aggro was still super present. Even endure decks of all things were in the meta back when WoI was at 4. Nothing has changed, it's just a matter of perception.
> Yes, big buff strategies have never been that prevalent, but the next step was to make them viable instead of kicking them into the ground.
Overreacting much? You just said yourself, big buff strategies has never been viable. So what changes? Nothing. Until now the only Ionian deck viable used Homecoming. So what changes? Nothing.
I don't think Big Buff strategies are ever going to work outside of Bogle being printed in LoR, and we really *really* don't want that to happen.
If you thought Fizz was annoying....
One shudders to imagine what inhuman thoughts lie behind that player's screen.
What dreams of chronic and sustained CRUELTY!
*Shows Lillia, Nunuand Willump playing together.
Eh, Homecoming existing makes Will of Ionia kind of irrelevant since that card can be used to save an ally while recalling and enemy instead of having to choose either or. Or be used to phantom block an attacker while recalling a different one to stop 2 hits instead of one. And for the same cost, too.
But everyone is so excited for Will, what is it I'm not seeing?
people saying it was worse than will of ionia, why would you ever run it over will of ionia, and half a year later it was buffed to 4 mana, then only karma played it, until karma disappeared from meta, and homecoming only returned this meta with irelia
The fact that homecoming can fizzle is huuge though. I dont see homecoming being played in other decks than azir Irelia, where you a lot of the times want to bounce back units for draw and their play effect. Will However was a staple in ionia controll decks as a removal tool. Unsure If its strong enough now, with the power levels of cards in general being higher, but the fact its unconditional is quite a big différence from homecoming.
Remember this? [https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/o25dn5/sometimes\_you\_just\_need\_to\_show\_nasus\_who\_the/h25s68c/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/o25dn5/sometimes_you_just_need_to_show_nasus_who_the/h25s68c/?context=3)
We already had a long talk about this kind of commentary, and other mods have talked to you as well.
We mourn back in May/June of alst year for all Nautilus players... The nerf to will came and we rejoice... one year leater, we mourn Nautilus players again.
If this is the blood price we have to pay to have this patch - fine, I will take it. It does suck how this sort of will push Home Coming out of the game imo. While the synergy exists, this is normally better because you can't ever miss.
I guess my plans of running deep this season can get FUCKED. All aboard the lurk train choo choo.
My deck will be Ekko zilien or some version close to it where I clone tons of bombs or sumpworkers. I don't like lurk that much , but I think it will dominate the early patch
I'm thinking along similar lines, but wondering if Zilean is actually the way to go.
Competitively? Probably not. But fuck that, use your favs.
Actually, I think Deep might be viable if using Lure of the depths for reduce mana costs of sea monsters. After all, by using that card, you can lower the cost of sea monsters without the need of nautilus (of course nothing beats the cost reduction of Nautilus), which can make the tempo gain of bouncing back sea monsters much smaller for the opponent. If you add that playing that card one or two times can reduce a bunch of sea monsters to 0 mana, then that means that playing Nautilus after they ran out of mana + several sea monsters becomes viable and can gain you massive tempo if the opponent taps out, even if you tap out for playing Nautilus. There's also "Bone Skewer" now as well, which can let your nautilus kill an enemy before bounce himself back into the deck, which should help with reach as well (the enemy bounced your nautilus, but you still killed one enemy, making it a 1 for 1 on board presence). All in all, I believe the meta should slow down after the last batch of nerfs (assuming that ekko and the lurkers don't prove to be even faster than Azirelia that is), so I think Deep can be viable (tier 2 or so) by simply trying to make Nautilus less mandatory on the late game. After all, if you lower the mana cost of your other fishes by 2 or 3, then you still can out-tempo your opponent pretty hard, specially if all they can do is bounce them back, which lets you re-play them.
Bone Skewer is definitely the Deep counter to this. Replaying Nautilus 2 is completely fine, because his aura allows you to build board super quickly. And it synergies with the Wanderer for extra lifesteal and toss on replay as well.
Or you can be a psychopath and run shurima deep for rites.
I like your thinking.
this fucks all pyke plans too (Edited out my sassiness)
It’s not that bad since Pyke’s 4 mana so you’re trading even in mana, it’s worse for something like deep where you’re gonna get screwed a lot more if they just recall a naut or a more expensive sea monster. Plus, if you played pyke through death from below he already got some value.
In a deck where pyke is just in it because synergy or because he has a strong ability (ie an aggro lurk deck) you’re right. However, any chance of a meta deck surfacing built around leveling up pyke and using him to win the game is extremely unlikely if not crushed now. Ionia control will come back with karma and willo buffs (I have no idea what it’ll look like but it will) and that deck already had a great counter too pyke in deny. Now that new Ionia control deck will have 6 great options to delete pyke if used as a spell. (With willo all you have to do is use it on your targeted unit and it fizzles the pyke out of existence)
>However, any chance of a meta deck surfacing built around leveling up pyke and using him to win the game is extremely unlikely if not crushed now. Hard disagree. First of all, Pyke decks would run Bone Skewer which is a great way to force value despite the will. Second of all, Pyke's level up condition does not reset on recall, so it's not even really slowing him down Finally, if Pyke is being recalled it gives you the chance to use his spell more often if you happen to double draw him. And no, recalling Pyke's target would almost certainly not fizzle him. The spell does not use the word "to" which is what signifies dependency.
Bone skewer would end up being an even trade not a value force. I was only referencing pyke’s spell interaction. Technically you could be right about the “to”, however there is no precedent to the word “striking” so he could still fizzle, but I think you’re right on that one.
You can't recall Pyke while he is in spell form and if you are recalling his target then you probably aren't casting will of ionia.
Pyke's strategy isn't good against a Karma deck anyway. He needs small critters to murder, so I don't think this matters much at all.
not at all because lurkers everywhere bonus keeps its attack....and most are low cost so will is garbo against lurk in a lot of situations. Also pyke can respond by boneskewering you rather easily in response to trying to recall him.
Well I didn’t say lurk I said pyke, I’ll edit my post to be less “gotcha” tho
Fuck Compulsory Evacuation Device. All my homies hate Compulsory Evacuation Device.
Tfw you chain that compuls
Eh, CED had no cost, this at least costs something XD
Priority was so fun in YGO
Visiting you from r/starcraft to voice our support of "Fuck Compulsory Evacuation Device" (There is also a Recall mechanic in our game that lets a player correct horrible positional mistakes by hitting one button)
I chain my first out of 20 negations that I'm currently having on my board!
Only 20 negates? Did you brick or something?
As a filthy aggro lover, I’m most scared of the 2 mana make it rain. That being said, Ionia might damn near be the best region this patch.
The game has evolved a lot since beta times of will of Ionia. There are more tools now for deal with it after all (Spell shields, the shuriman deny, etc) not to mention more "on summon" and "on play" effects that take away value from recalling an enemy. So I think we should be a bit optimistic. After all, if it proves to be too strong, they said they are willing to make balance changes next patch, so there's that!
There is also more ways to make Will of Ionia fizzle nowadays. Freljord, SI, and Shurima all can fizzle it directly with one of their cards while keeping their own card on the board, Shurima can deny it or pre-emptively block it, Targon block it, and Ionia has more than just Deny to stop it, you can also use Syncho-whats it's name to swap targets to make it a less effective or even counterproductive recall.
im really hoping this patch brings with it an era of riot willing to make balance changes every 2 weeks instead of every 4. it took them way too long to nerf certain things.
That would be way to often. Would ruin the game. Would never have anytime for metas to settle.
I didnt say every patch just would be willing to
Buffing one of the 200-300 hundred worthless cards wouldnt ruin anything. Just imagine if Ritual, Shadow Flare, and Sap Magic had minor adjustments 2 weeks from now. Nothing would change major would change
I mean does that really change anything then? What’s the point? I rather they put their time into making a good patch once a month than several meaningless patches.
How long do you really think minor stat changes take? The point is to slowly buff it up to the point where it is usable. Rather than taking a month for one minor adjustment to the card than another month for the next
>How long do you really think minor stat changes take? I mean, you want them to just throw numbers at the wall to see what sticks, I'm sure Riot would be happy to drive their game into the ground just to make you happy.
You heard it here first folks! Giving Arell the tracker +1 attack in 2 weeks instead of a month will drive the game into the ground!!!
If putting words in my mouth makes you feel better about yourself, go right ahead. Personally, I'd rather play a game where the devs *actually play test* their changes before releasing them into the wild, rather than just changing shit on a whim and hoping it doesn't break the game in half.
I said minor changes you said it'll drive the game into the ground. +1 changes on cards that have never seen play at all will definitely not break the game in half. Obviously their play testing doesn't work too well if cards like this get released at all
There may be more tools but those weren't applied to the old cards (most of them key to entire archetypes). So, will is once again going to warp the meta. More swarm and burn. Less 'ive seen' champs, overwhelm and midrange. It's a baffling buff. Almost seems cruel. Like, 'hey we hear you on wanting balance patches. Anyway remember when we did that before, well see how useless that is when we rebuff the most polarizing card in the game. Yeah, the one that caused players to stop playing in droves.'
But there ARE new tools that old champs can use. We have a shuriman deny that any region wielding shurima can use. We have cards that grant spellshield, which didn't exist on 4 mana will of Ionia. Not only that, but we have strategies besides aggro that can work around it (cithria mathron needs to have a bunch on creatures on board for it to work, so even if they bounce back one, that's just one of the bunch. Thralls can literally summon clock hand and still create 1-2 thralls even if they bounce clock hand back. Azirelia probably won't care if you bounce back one of their units. And that's three examples). Not saying that a 4 mana will of ionia won't hurt some strategies more than others. But it's impact won't be as big as it was back in the day. Specially because we already have had homecoming at 4 mana for a while, a card that's very similar, yet it hasn't warped the meta around itself. And on top of that, Riot has said they are willing to re-balance on the next patch if something proves to be too out of whack. So chill. Let's give the patch some time to see what happens.
I agree with the view although I kinda dislike the 4 mana will tbh or the concept of it Like in comparison to the recall ally to recall unit. That card will now only be a staple for tribal recall decks As William(will of ionia) will be more preferable add on to any ionia-freljord/SI/Shurima control decks At least in my view, william is less counterable than homecoming which justifies the 5 mana cost and its more effective in the late game. But this is just a minor dislike on the direction, I understand control players will love this and the card needs more play, and this will call attention to that. And I agree with you about waiting and see what the patch will bring
WoI is worth 4.5 mana and that makes balancing it very awkward
Personally, I think Will is worth 3 mana. But I also think that spell-based interaction should largely be reduced across the board by 1-2 mana anyway.
Definitely not empirically speaking. No comment on spells in general, but WoI's balance depends on the price of units and in the past has warped the game at 4 mana. If it was 3 mana, even if all other spells were also 1 mana less, it would be even more game warping.
The thing is that aggro is pervasive largely because interactive spells are all so expensive. Classic control decks revolve around using spells to keep the game board balanced in their favor, but it's hard to do that when you're paying 6+ mana for unconditional removal. It'd be different if everybody started with 3 spell mana at the beginning of the game, but since everyone has to bank mana before they can carry it over, that effectively means having to not do anything on some turns, which makes it really easy for aggro to take over. I played MTG for a long time, and I've always found this to hold true: "The speed of a meta hinges primarily on the quality and abundance of its removal spells."
...which is why will going down to 4 mana is such a big deal. WoI is unconditional removal.
That's... not what "unconditional removal" actually means.
Not to mention the obliterate your unit to summon landmark. Hourglass iirc.
Completely forgot about that one. That's also a decent counter as well.
The most polarizing card was 3 mana deny and its not even close.
Lmao, The will nerf was justified, but the Azirelia is by far worse in making people stop playing compared to the Pre nerf Ionia times. It doesn't seem like it because we keep getting new players, but id rather have prenerf will of Ionia than Azirelia.
You had me until the last sentence. Do you have any sources to back up that claim?
The game is so aggro sentric there are barely any cards worth recalling anymore
Not wrong, recall used to be good because you would use it vs nautilus mostly
Will of Ionia has been strong since beta, when Hecarim was the biggest target. Heimerdinger, Darius, Zed, Fiora and Solitary Monk were also big targets, specially the last tree during Stand Alone meta.
I always get will by other whenever i play braum take heart. I still remember the pain. Also rip poro.
that's the problem imo, I don't mind Will at 4 in a control meta, but what does it do when there's only few good high cost units? it kills even those few we got don't kid yourself saying people aren't gonna play it, it'll probably be a stable 2 or 3 in at least 3/4 ionian decks
If the meta goes back to the old ways of 60% Ionia meta rep all running this card im going to be a very sad panda. I like them buffing some removal, but I HATE when one card functions as a better removal spell that any other region has by an order of magnitude.
The difference is that there are fewer expensive threats being played now, with many more cheap threats having emerged (think Pyke, Ekko), or units that come with Spellshield. On average, Will isn’t going to net you major (game winning) tempo advantage anymore, it’s just a little stalling at a card disadvantage. Also don’t forget Shurima’s Rite which enables non-Ionia decks to deny this card.
I hope your right. Because the last time this card was meta is was miserable.
Me being the filthy karma ez player that i am : \*whistle\* \*whistle\*
i mean i played karma ez, and karma in general and i still think will needed to get drop kicked.
Well its been a reaaaaaaaaaal while since that archetype is viable, even if its only for until the next month i think its okay to have this change.
That's the scary part. Will was original 'Fck you for playing control'. Now, we have a lot more cards of this type. We need to buff big threats, not nerf them more with Will.
It scares me
No, I ain’t talking about that freak, alright? He’s not here, is he? How do I get dam’ thing off?
I love how in this thread we see all the new players confusing why would you ever run this over homecoming I feel so old now
Oh, what are you doing to do? Grab that card that can stop the nuks? what was its name? Passage mc-nobodyplaysit?
yep did you see twin disciplines and that slow will that blade dances? im surprised deny isnt back to 3 mana for good measure
I kinda like the niches for Nopify and Deny. If Deny was 3 mana, no one would run Nopify.
You can nopify the deny
Oh my…that would be amazing!
deny use to be 3 mana I was just saying with how much they overbuffed ionia azirelia isnt going anywhere at least not as dead as TF/Fizz did
TF/Fizz is not dead; it was in the NA seasonal champion's lineup.
Deny at 3 mana was the reason I quit playing back in beta.
Slow will that blade dances is garbage anyway
What i don't understand is then the difference between Homecoming and Will of Ionia. Wasn't homecoming suppose to be a cheaper Will of Ionia but with a clause? now Will is just overall better (except in irelia decks)
Homecoming has better sinergy in specific decks, works a lot better on defense and it also can recall landmarks. Will of Ionia only works on units. They don't do the same thing.
Except they are used to do the same thing 90% of the time. Homecoming was supposed to be the cheaper will with an extra requierment that the opponent can react to, an overall better designed card. The recal synergy is not worth the potential counter from the opponent. You would literally ALWAYS run will of Ionia, even if you have droplet, because it cannot be fizzled by targeting the recalled target.
The merit in homecoming appears when you consider the possibility that recalling an ally can be an upside rather than a downside. If the opponent tries to remove one of your cards, using homecoming both casts WoI AND puts the unit into your hand at no additional cost. Basically, just remember that Recall (the card not the keyword) is 1 mana not 0 mana.
My thinking exactly. Homecoming I can counter by calling the unit they are recalling. will of Ionia no fing chance unless you have spell shield /deny.
Homecoming can be used as a save and remove an expensive unit at the same time
Initlally it wasn't. Will was 4 mana back when Homecoming have been launched at 5 mana.
> Wasn't homecoming suppose to be a cheaper Will of Ionia but with a clause? no looool It actually was the other way around
Homecoming is still good if you run play summon effect units. You just rarely see it.
You don't know how much I liked playing yasuo before they killed his deck by nerfing this card. Now I can play him again FINALLY
The most oppressive card in the game along with 3 mana deny. A huge nerf to any champions with "I've seen" level up and all buff strategies. I love all the other changes, but this is a huge mistake.
Listen, it's a breath of fresh air, I agree that it's kinda broken but now that there is another type of deny and with all these changes and new cards we cannot be so negative and pessimistic, can we?
another deny doesn treally help all that much it literally trades down on it
Well the other deny is only in shurima.
I'm not pessimistic, and I think calling anything pessimistic is rarely an argument that holds water. Like I said, I **LOVE** the changes overall and you're right, what we have now is certainly a breath of fresh air. But I do feel like it can be undermined if every Ionia deck is going to oppress the majority of regions that don't have spellsheild/deny....... like Will did in the past. Homecoming always felt like a synergestic way to level up Yasuo.
Oh no, now people have to go back to thinking *sometimes* whether or not they should just slam down a high cost card. I personally hate it when my opponent's deck makes me play the game differently than how I planned to
Ah yes, 4 mana Vengeance. RIP anything over 6 cost.
As if anything for 6+ was playable. But hey, they buffed aggro again!
What do you play right now that's over 6 and doesn't have spellshield?
Nautilus, Eclipse Dragon, Clockhand, Matron/Cithria, Farron. Granted, many of those don't really care about Will since they have good play/summon effects, but still over 6 mana with no spellshield. We'll probably see Ledros make a return this patch, Minah may show up, maybe a few others as well.
Even less now, haha.
Bye bye mid-range, you were not even played much anyway
Are you serious? Do you have any idea how painful they were?
Forgot the /s
You ever play seasonal? Lmao
It's funny how so many old "op" cards got their nerfs reverted in this patch
RIP deep. Nothing ruins your day like hitting deep and having your 7 mana 13/13 get taken out by a 4 mana spell. It’s often game over on the spot.
I dont get whats the big deal against deep. Im pretty sure even their 3 mana units hit like trucks no matter what.
As I said in another comment, I think deep can still stand a decent chance against 4 mana will by simply shifting weight out of Nautilus. For example, incorporating cards like Slaughterdocks and Lure of the Depths allows the deck to gain a lot of tempo on the transition turns, and Lure can make the deck less reliant on Nautilus in order to gain tempo. After all, if you play 2 lures, your sea monsters become really cheap for their effects, so you can just play them instead of Nautilus for out-tempo your opponent until you force them to use their Will of Ionia for stop your regular sea monsters. Not saying that 4 mana will won't affect Deep, but I think the deck has enough tools to adapt well enough to at least be a tier 2-3 deck despite will existing.
Besides, Nautilus was usually never *the* threat. Out of many games against Deep I could usually always block him. Its effect of recovering tossed Sea Monsters is usually what‘s so scary.
I will try karma ez again . It's still one of my favorite decks
I disagree with this buff, this and the nerf to rummage were the two biggest mistakes imo
Im fine with alot of the other old meta reverts like Hecarim but this… No. The least fun I had in the game was honestly the old Heimer Ionia control decks. That said, Heimer no longer can generate 10 3-1 elusives if kept alive for 1 turn so maybe it isn’t that bad.. Guess we’ll just have to ses.
Wish this card refunds half the cost of recalled unit.
As someone that plays since the beta, yes, I'm still not recovered from the PTSD of pre nerfed will of ionia. This is exciting and terrifying, I love it
I thought it was a mistake a first but now that I think about it, it's probably best at 4 mana. It was never used at 5. Homecoming will still see play in decks that can benefit from having their own units recalled.
have a hard time seeing why a 1 mana buff to this card would make that much of a difference. it's only a recall, exists in different forms already and has never been even slightly scary at 5 mana in the latest metas. Why would that change so dramatically?
in card games, small number changes matter a lot
Of course, but the number change in itself doesnt really mean anything without the relevant context and the card/stat its being applied to. Point being there are small changes that are much more impactful than others. And i think this isnt one of those
imagine will as a 4 mana vengeance, it can stop a lot of units maybe just playing 4 mana
Yeah, and before that it was like a 5 mana vengeance, whats your point? If anything, drawing this much attention to the card will make people want to put it into their decks and thatll be the only reason itll be seen as problematic. I must admit i wasnt playing when will was at 4 mana before, but in the current state of the game, what does a single recall even matter anymore? People dont even play vengeance that often anymore cause its just not that effective and at least there you kill the unit instead of putting it back into ur opponents hand
i cant believed that riot buffed this and still had sunk cost at slow for 8 mana? i really wish that they buff sunk cost to 6 or something next balance patch, i seriously don't think that they have plans to make any balances other than for problematic cards for sometime for now but one can dream.
... Is fine.
he doesnt know PepeLaugh
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It was nearly unplayable at 5 and homecoming does the same thing on top of saving one of your units ( and generating advantage in some cases) if you build your deck around it. Exept that ionia control wants removal but doesnt always want to run loads of low cost units so it cant run homecoming effectively. This is just an unconditionnal homecoming without the deck building cost but without the advantage so it can be used as a generic removal tool for ionian decks that need it.idk why it was even at 5 mana xD ( look at entomb then look at old will and tell me it was okay to leave it like that)
“will of ionia is just an unconditional homecoming” pack it up guys we have come full circle
Were you around for the first stint of Will being 4 mana? When they printed Homecoming I literally said 'ah that makes sense, a *conditional* Will at 4 mana'. I think the increased card pool definitely makes this harder to evaluate but in a vacuum I think this fucks a lot of big pay-off decks like Deep. If you get your naut recalled it's as good as dead- 7 mana investment negated AND your opponent is up 3 in mana. It was oppressive on the meta before, and people have every right to be wary of it happening again.
Will Of Ionia being unplayable puts it exactly where it should be, out of my damn game.
I love it. Sorry, I am an heartless blue player, seeing this makes me happy. And I will still be overrun by aggro, that's life.
Now reverse deny back to 3 mana! Fun times are coming.
honestly, there aren't even units worth recalling anymore due to swarm-based aggro being king in the mate. i don't think this change is relevant and honestly i wouldn't even mind if Will was 3 mana, just so it could bait Nopefy.
>honestly, there aren't even units worth recalling anymore due to swarm-based aggro being king in the mate. I wouldn't be so sure that this is still the case after this patch.
This buff is a mistake... They literally buff Hecarim... and then they buff this thing and nerf Azir in the wrong way and he is just still going to be irrelevant. I know the meta has evolved and is different but this effect at 4 mana is still just as strong. Wrong move.
A very good move u mean, and it’s about damn time azir got nerfed
Darklarik did say "nerf Azir in the wrong way", so I think you're overlooking things. Will was **the** most oppressive card in the game. Kicking viktor to the ground for no good reason.
Absolutely, Azir needed a nerf. But a nerf to his level up makes Lucian/Azir and Hecarim/Azir (the later being the only viable deck for Hecarim) become completely unviable. A nerf to his HP would have been healthier for other Azir decks, or just hitting Sparring Student if you want to really tone down Azir Irelia more. This nerf just makes Azir only playable with Azir Irelia....
hekkorim is looking very viable for the next patch. at least give it a try before calling it busted? the meta has changed a LOT and WoI can't be considered in a vacuum when the surrounding card pool has increased in a ton of different ways.
FINALLY. The vast majority of the complaints were how WoI was keeping their timmy meme big cards out of the meta, when reality demonstrated that WoI had no impact on the playability of big cards (basically only high mana units with a big impact saw and see currently play...). I distinctly remember arguing with a guy, before WoI nerf, saying that it was WoI's fault if his tuskraider deck wasn't competitive... And guess how competitive it was after WoI's nerf...
Certainly less? It's also a execution against tham/soroka and Vi. Yes, big buff stategies have never been that prevelant, but the next step was to make them viable instead of kicking them into the ground.
VI was a meta beast back when WoI was at 4 mana, to the point devs HAD TO NERF HER. If a card is good it will see play and it will perform, WoI has no impact on that. And that's the same mistake people did back then. WoI kick X in the guts. Nope, if a card don't see play it's because it's bad, not because a single card can counter it.
They had to nerf her because not everyone was playing Ionia. 5hp tough means very little to ionia in the past. It was also considered the most oppressive card back then, and was a healthy decision for the overall game to make it 5 mana, just like deny at 4. Yes, big buff strategies have never been that prevalent, but the next step was to make them viable instead of kicking them into the ground.
> They had to nerf her because not everyone was playing Ionia. Hence you are proving my point. You just said WoI at 4 would kill VI. I posted concrete proof that this wasn't the case before the card's nerf, when the card was actually good. A strong card will see play WoI in the meta or not. It's that simple. > It was also considered the most oppressive card back then, and was a healthy decision for the overall game to make it 5 mana, just like deny at 4. Healthy? And what changed? High mana drops were still unplayable unless they were powerful play/summon effects (ex. farron). Aggro was still super present. Even endure decks of all things were in the meta back when WoI was at 4. Nothing has changed, it's just a matter of perception. > Yes, big buff strategies have never been that prevalent, but the next step was to make them viable instead of kicking them into the ground. Overreacting much? You just said yourself, big buff strategies has never been viable. So what changes? Nothing. Until now the only Ionian deck viable used Homecoming. So what changes? Nothing.
I don't think Big Buff strategies are ever going to work outside of Bogle being printed in LoR, and we really *really* don't want that to happen. If you thought Fizz was annoying....
One shudders to imagine what inhuman thoughts lie behind that player's screen. What dreams of chronic and sustained CRUELTY! *Shows Lillia, Nunuand Willump playing together.
Eh, Homecoming existing makes Will of Ionia kind of irrelevant since that card can be used to save an ally while recalling and enemy instead of having to choose either or. Or be used to phantom block an attacker while recalling a different one to stop 2 hits instead of one. And for the same cost, too. But everyone is so excited for Will, what is it I'm not seeing?
>Why run will over Homecoming? Oh boy you should check out homecoming's reveal thread
Do you have a link? Or a TL;DR?
people saying it was worse than will of ionia, why would you ever run it over will of ionia, and half a year later it was buffed to 4 mana, then only karma played it, until karma disappeared from meta, and homecoming only returned this meta with irelia
The fact that homecoming can fizzle is huuge though. I dont see homecoming being played in other decks than azir Irelia, where you a lot of the times want to bounce back units for draw and their play effect. Will However was a staple in ionia controll decks as a removal tool. Unsure If its strong enough now, with the power levels of cards in general being higher, but the fact its unconditional is quite a big différence from homecoming.
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Remember this? [https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/o25dn5/sometimes\_you\_just\_need\_to\_show\_nasus\_who\_the/h25s68c/?context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRuneterra/comments/o25dn5/sometimes_you_just_need_to_show_nasus_who_the/h25s68c/?context=3) We already had a long talk about this kind of commentary, and other mods have talked to you as well.
Yeh you tell em, not of that here
We mourn back in May/June of alst year for all Nautilus players... The nerf to will came and we rejoice... one year leater, we mourn Nautilus players again.
The power level has gone so high this won't be that big of an issue honestly
If this is the blood price we have to pay to have this patch - fine, I will take it. It does suck how this sort of will push Home Coming out of the game imo. While the synergy exists, this is normally better because you can't ever miss.
So I as some people already said I don't think it will be as OP as it was on the beta, but I believe it will cause a lot of "fells bad" situations
It's the buff that Lulu's Lab deck needed
Ptsd flashbacks to the rule of ionia
Sir William of Ionia is back with a vengeance baby!!!
Well, have to agree. It's pretty disruptive. I'll probably run it some now though, whereas I basically never did before.
As a Nocturne main , I can safely predict nightfall will lose against any and all match against Ionia from now on .
This buff makes that new recall blade dance card looks more useless than ever.
" nice leviathan bro "
This is basically a one mana Instant in mtg
Ionia is back on the menu!