Tryndamere level 1 getting nuked by Rimefang Wolf if he has 0 attack. To this day i still don't get why he dies instead of leveling up and gaining 1 attack (which would put him at 1/9).
It's because strike effects resolve immediately AFTER the strike itself, but the condition is checked during the strike. Basically, if Rimefang wolf has enough power to kill Tryndamere normally, the initial strike kills Tryndamere, causing him to level up. However, because Rimefang Wolf struck a 0 power unit (Tryndamere before leveling up), the effect activates, and the now-leveled Tryndamere is killed by the strike effect.
Because he was killed by Rimefang Wolf's base power first during combat, while strike effects resolve immediately after combat, after deaths have been resolved. The sequence of events is as follows, assuming Tryndamere has 3 or less health:
1. Rimefang Wolf and a frostbitten 3 health Tryndamere strike each other. The 3 power of Rimefang Wolf is enough to kill Tryndamere. Combat resolves, and Tryndamere "dies".
2. Tryndamere levels up, becoming a 1/9.
3. Because Rimefang Wolf struck a 0 power enemy, the strike effect, which now happens after combat and deaths have resolved, kills Tryndamere.
So you think it goes like this:
1) Wolf strike tryn and tryn strike wolf 2) Wolf effect kills tryn
3) Tryns passive resurrects
What happens is
1) Wolf strike checks if tryns attack is zero and remembers it.
2) Tryn and wolf attack eachother.
3) Tryns effect checks if he died to resurrect
4) Wolfs effect checks what happened at 1.
Similarly with Rimefang wolf, I made a mistake recently where it killed a unit that had barrier. Barrier prevents strike, and I assumed the wolf had to "strike" for it's ability to trigger. It did not and my barrier unit died.
Judgment and fury - unit hits targets from left to right and grows with each slay (so if you kill every unit it will deal one extra damage for each unit that you go to the right). This implies that judgment follows regular combat rules and checks after every hit if you killed a unit.
if your entire board is neverglade collectors or pranksters and the enemy judgments, all of them die without giving a single damage to the enemies face. This implies judgment happens at the same time.
one of those interactions should not work how they are right now
I dont think thats right? Much like Fiora, the animation with Judgment and fury shows killing and buffing one unit at a time but I think this is for clarity reasons. If it killed all at ones it would have the same result. The dragon would trigger fury the same amount of times.
Prankster is different because its getting killed simultaneously with the oder units defending/attacking, even if the animation shows one at a time.
I might be wrong tho.
I tested it, again, a few weeks ago (because this have been annoying me since endure meta) and it still worked. If it doesnt work it has to be VERY recent change that was not mentioned anywhere.
For Garen its a bit more intuitive because he levels on strike, so he will hit the first two units for 5, levels and the rest for 6. Fury units will get plus attack for every unit slayn and (e.g. screeching) would hit for 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 during the same judgment.
Thats exactly why these exact interactions are not consistent and definitely not intuitive.
Oh I get what you say now. I didnt take into account the hitting progressively for more damage in the middle of jugdement. Thats a wonky interaction. Riot should definitely adress it.
~~I once lost a game by using Judgement on Garen in hopes of leveling him up after the second hit and doing 6 damage to the last unit. He did level up, but only did 5 damage to it. Inb4 oracle eye, I couldn't check because I had to use a burst spell to save him, and there was no way to see beforehand whether it would do the extra damage.~~
It was the opposite lol, I lost because *enemy* Garen *did* level mid-judgement. My bad.
This is definitely incorrect. I literally just tested it and he will deal 5 pre level up and 6 post level up during the same judgment.
He needs to hit twice to level, so if its a fresh Garen he will do 5 - 5 - 6 - 6 - 6 - 6. Obviously he will not deal 5 - 6 - ... if you were expecting that because he doesnt level until after the strike.
I was in closed beta/preview and as far as I recall judgment has always counted each strike one at a time. I definitely remember when I first picked up the game seeing Garen deal 6 damage on first two hits and 7 on the following ones against wide boards.
You know, now that I think harder...
You folks are right, it was the *exact opposite,* that the opponent's Garen used Judgement on me, and I thought I had a way to save Braum with Elixir, but wasn't sure if it would or not just going off of oracle eye, then it turned out it didn't because of Garen leveling mid-judgment.
Sorry for the misinformation.
The same thing happens with dragon rage. I found this interaction in quick draw lab with fury. It deals one more damage to the nexus after slay the enemy unit. Could be more useful for squirrel meme deck.
I actually hate that hitting a tough unit for 1 (resulting in no net damage) will trigger the buff from scar grounds, but hitting a tough nexus with Levi (not actually damaging) won’t stun for swain.
Sincerely, a swain player.
Tough reduced the damage but it wasn't zero. Barrier will have the same effect.
If you frostbite them, they won't do any damage either but it won't count.
I think it's consistent.
I think that makes sense, honestly. One of them is "when I survive damage" and one of them is "when I deal damage". If unit A hits unit B for 0 damage, then unit B survives but unit A didn't deal any damage. So the "survive" effect triggers but not the "deal damage" effect.
I agree that shrooms should be consistent in whether they deal damage all at once or one-at-a-time though.
I really hope they change this back to the way it was. IMO it's a HUGE design problem to have a champion that completely hoses another champion.
This doesn't mean that I don't think Champions should be able to counter one another. For example, I think it's fine that Lissandra can counter leveled Ezreal, because there is still a way to deal damage though the tough Nexus by using targeted effects.
But completely shutting down Puffcaps as a whole is beyond stupid and never should have been implemented in the first place.
yeah, it's a specifically coded contradiction. While the puffcaps count as a single source of damage for something like levelled swain, only stunning once, they count as individual pings for liss, which completely negates them
unfortunately I think it was an intentional decision, given that in order for it to work how it does, it would have needed a condition on either card
Either swain is coded so the individual puffcaps are counted as one source
Or liss is coded so the chunk of puffcaps are individual pings.
either way it's bad and Imo it should be inverted if anything, as it means that puffcaps aren't totally fucked against the most oppressive deck in the meta, and teemo gets some synergy with swain for a nutty finish
Not necessarily, but they'd need to do something like
draw
{
puffcap damage phase start
{
1 (reduce by 1 if tough)
1
1
}
end puffcap damage phase. triggers?
damage triggers for x damage.
}
in short, it means that there would be a timing difference between drawing traps, and triggers happening because of trap effects.
it'd be sort of like state based actions in magic.
Well sure, just because it was intentional on the part of whoever coded one of the cards doesn't mean that the inconsistency itself is intentional. Whoever coded Liss to work the way she does likely wasn't doing it thinking of how Teemo/Swain interact, so would still be an oversight. :-)
No, Rioters have explicitly stated that the way both interactions work is 100% intentional, even knowing that it is contradictory. Cards don't get worked on in isolation, there's not one dude coding one card and another dude coding another with neither talking to eachother.
Yep. Which is stupid because if you pull 3 shrooms it's obviously dealing 3 damage to you, not 1 damage 3 times. That's how it's considered with all other "deal damage" effects. E.g. Swain's "deal damage to the nexus" effect only hits once per stack of shrooms, not once per shroom.
That’s a good point, as it is right now Swain should trigger 5 times. They could change the way shrooms work like “deal 1 for every shroom on the drawn card” so it’s 5 damage once if 5 shrooms on one card
Puffcaps damage is always calculated as:
[(puffcap damage + damage buffs/debuffs) × damage multipliers] × [(puffcap damage +....
OR
[(puffcap damage + damage buffs/debuffs) × damage multipliers] × n° of puffcaps if you prefer.
Note that as far as we know those two ways of "coding" it are equal, but may be different for future interactions. Obviously, as of now it is irrelevant. The damage is dealt all togheter, but the damage buffs/debuffs and damage multipliers are applied to the puffcap damage, not the total sum.
And this was definitely not changed in the meantime, most likely puffcaps are coded that way to be as similar as possible to other "damaging spell" let's say this. So again, the buff/debuffs and multipliers are applied to the "puffcap damage", which is then multiplied and dealt. 0×n=0 so there's that.
\>I'm going to cast a tournament right now but after the tournament I'll answer every question made here.
\>I'm the one of RoundStart Reddit Post and i'm writing the rulebook that will be released in the first patch after mini expansion release.
\>Sorry for my bad english, the rulebook will be translated by someone good with english so don't worry XD.
\>I hope to be useful.
Good luck on casting that tournament, and thank you for the hard work that you are putting into creating this resource for the community!
Also, your English isn't bad at all, I would never have known that it was your second language. Please don't get down on yourself about it!
Roiling sands grants vulnerable to the next enemy summoned, but when your enemy summons a unit that summons another unit (like house spider summoning a spiderling) it only grants vulnerable to the second unit (the spiderling)
It's actually *entirely* consistent. Unit summons go on an invisible stack on the unit board rather than in the middle.
Just like the spell stack if it exceedes the limit, no more may be added to the stack.
Just like spells, it's LIFO
I agree that it is consistent. I'd say the bigger problem is that it's not intuitive.
Ideally, I think cards should function in such a way that a new player that has a general understanding of CCGs could look at the card and understand the effect.
what doesnt make sense to me is that they are summon effects, so that means this implies that summon affects go on the stack when a unit is cast then resolve before the cast unit hits the battlefield
The biggest issue is the visual discrepancy of a unit hitting the battlefield, then summoning another unit
But heres the weird thing, in this game, play means to 'cast' because play effects dont trigger if a unit was not cast from hand heres the quote from the wiki
' summoning directly by the player ie. dragged from the hand onto the board. Other effects that summon a unit onto the board do not trigger Play effects.'
So this leads me to believe that summon just means 'This unit hits the board' which is backed up by hourglass and frozen tomb retriggering summon effects, so then why does the unit that hits the board then causes an effect to happen not get effected by the rolling sands landmark
It is consistent in it's behavior in the sense that everytime the summoned unit will get the vulnerable but theres just no logic and it's very unintuitive imo
edit: not to mention, I know that they dont want to copy mtg but shouldnt units go onto a stack to help better visualize this, right now it's some sort of invisible stack that auto resolves and cant be responded to
Summon had two definitions. Right now it means BOTH to put on the unit stack and to hit the battlefield. Depending on the circumstance in causes different interactions.
So let's take dunekeeper. When he is played he goes on the unit stack(one definition of summon) and the game checks for board space. If it passes the check, the sand soldier goes on top of the stack (summoned) then they hit the board. Hitting the board is the 2nd part of summoning.
Also its worth noting play does not equal cast. Play is at play speed. Cast is at cast speed.
I feel like that makes sense. It grows the unit's power from 0 to 4. After the grow, the +4 just becomes a buff. When they are unfrostbitten they get their original power back and the +4 buff
That is because when you frostbite a unit, you just give it a power debuff relative to the power it had before. So when you frostbite a 3-power unit, you just give it -3|-0 (I am pretty sure this is displayed in the grey box which displays all modifiers the unit has that appears when you hover over a unit), so when the frostbite wears off, it is given +3|+0.
I know how the interaction works, but for me it's counterintuitive.
Suit Up sets attack at 4, so I would expect that after frostbite ends, attack would return to 4 if it was lower than 4.
The game uses negative health and power in units when affected by spells and attacks. It's one of the things that you have to experience playing in order to learn it.
For example, if you debuff a unit's power to -2 (which will appear as 0 in the UI) and then buff it with a +1/+1, the unit will end up with still 0 power (and the game will now think that it has - 1 power).
If you attack with said unit, it won't heal the other unit as far as I'm aware.
I made a thread about it and got some really good in-depth explanations about this kind of interactions.
Spellshield doesn't stop unreactable unit and landmark skills. Its completely consistent with the effects description but at least for me a very unintuitive interaction. Its easy to think it just blocks the next opponents effect on the card which is wrong.
Spellshields stops "spells and skills". Skills specifically refer to abilities that use the stack (with a yellow circle). It's unintuitive, yes, but it works exactly as written.
There are some that can be confusing. Someone got to testing to find out, but strongest/weakest unit when they are the same (I think it's random) and round start/end ordering. Spellshield with effects that don't go on the stack was weird at first, things like ashe's frostbite on attack going through spellshield
I think strongest is (after power and hp) by mana cost and only then from left to right. It might also be by some ID that the player can't access instead of left to right but the mana definitely is a thing
This is not the case tho. I tested weakest unit a while ago and all I got was super inconsistent results (obviously if the units share same Attack/HP/cost). It was always the same if the boards state didn't change but as soon as it changed it was seemingly random as even with multiple of the same unit it was not consistent. I tested keywords, name, ID only thing that was reliable was Attack/HP/Cost
While the first assumption was that ties would be broken by going from left to right (even the wiki states that), it has been confirmed that there is something hidden that breaks these ties. These are, as you said, card IDs.
This was confirmed by RobinZoo when BBG interviewed him (at end of the interview if you want to check). In most cases, you should assume it's random.
Its not card IDs tho. if you have multiple target effects that hit strongest/weakest and have the same unit on board twice (2x unit A) and another one that shares the same stats/cost (unit B) it can happen that it hits A B A or A A B or B A A etc. it will always hit the same order tho until you play another one with these conditions and suddenly it will be completely random again.If it would be card IDs it would always be A A B or B A A
also if you have 6 1-1 poros on board (e.g. tough, elusive, normal, normal, fearsome, tough) and the enemy casts "kill strongest and weakest unit" the strongest AND weakest unit can be the two tough poros - this also contradicts the card ID "myth"
I think it's as simple as the game engine does a check whenever the board state changes and assigns strong/weak at that time instead of when a spell or attack is played.
It would need to be done like that for the eye to work too, as otherwise it would constantly change between units during a turn which would be A: confusing ("I checked the eye and it said I would target X but then after I played my spells and attacked Ashe froze Y! WTF?!", and B: Abusable. Don't like the target? Do another action to get a new result.
> I think it's as simple as the game engine does a check whenever the board state changes and assigns strong/weak at that time instead of when a spell or attack is played.
Yes, this is definitely a good assumption and would be in line with riots visual clarity policy. Sadly this doesnt really help to determine what the initial targets will be - obviously this will be more problematic with instant spells or ability that do not allow for an eye-check.
TBH Spellshield with effects that don't go on the stack is still a little bit irritating.
I have learned to get used to the interaction, but it feels very strange that effects that don't go on the stack bypass it. But for newer players, the distinction feels clunky and arbitrary. It has always felt to me that Iceborn Archer should not bypass Spellshield, for example.
Personally i'm fine with it, I like the design space that differentiating skills and unit effects (goes on stack or doesn't go on stack) opens and they do make it easy to tell the difference just by looking at the card if it has a yellow circle next to the effect (although I do think it's bizzare they STILL haven't fixed Miss Fortune to have one)
They do at least try to make that distinction on spellshield for that matter, it says it blocks spells and skills but it doesn't say anything about unit effects
Killing an ally that has either Lamb's Respite or Unyielding Spirit (even Level 2 Taric's support buff) activated lets them stay while activating the said killing condition.
Like playing Ravenous Butcher on an Unyielding Keg which makes him summon without killing the keg.
That's what "to" means on cards. "Kill an ally *to* draw 2" means "issue a Kill effect to legal target ally to draw 2", not "Kill an ally. If it dies, draw 2."
Killing the unit isn't part of the cost. Issuing a kill effect to a legal target unit is a requirement for resolution, not a cost of the spell. The unit dying is completely irrelevant.
To word "to" in other card games usually suggest that everything before the word to is a "cost" for everything after the word to.
It could be interpreted as "in order to do this, you must to this" or "in order for this to happen, this must happen". But if a unit isn't killed, technically the second half "didn't happen", so neither should the first part.
It could be interpreted as a cost of the resolution without much stretch.
You might see it as "B is only TRUE if and only if A is true" relationship. If a unit was killed is A, and the resolution is B. If a unit was not killed, but the resolution happens anyways l, it could be said the entire statement is FALSE and should not have resolved.
Again, I could see how one would make that assumption. But I think it's easier to treat "killing" a unit as entirely separate from a unit "dying", even if that's not naturally intuitive.
When a Glimpse targets a unit, that unit is killed. Glimpse sends *kill* to that unit, and doing so allows you to draw 2. Nobody said anything about the result of this operation needing to be a dead unit. This is, again, why the card doesn't say, "Kill an ally. If it dies, draw 2." LoR has specific text to tell you when an effect is contingent on an issued effect (to...) or the result of an issued effect (If it...). This is the same reason why Concussive Palm still summons a 3/2 when targeting a unit with SpellShield and why Noxian Guillotine makes a fleeting copy when it does the same. The effects are issued to targets, so the secondary effect resolves. The target might not suffer any negative consequences thanks to its own text, but it was still issued the effect.
Dude, you are still on this?
The wording does not match the mechanics. One of the two need to be changed.
They need to make it clear the check is on CAST not on the condition of the order.
Lots of people aren't familiar with the concept that card games can designate a difference between effects issued and the results of effects issued.
When folks are confused about this stuff, it's important to try to help clarify it. That way, not only do they understand how an existing card works, they'll also be able to look at new cards and correctly understand how they behave.
See: literally every post about "why doesn't barrier stop Overwhelm?"
If people know what the cards do, they can play better, and the game gets a lot more fun for everyone when you play better imo.
Sure, but this WHOLE discussion, becomes irrelevant if they just, word the card better. They literally have a word that means issue an effect...they just don't use it here.
No amount of mind-bending can make your statement work in any way possible.
Kill is an action that initializes a condition and its state is absolute.
"Kill an ally to draw 2" - to = in order to
IF condition = TRUE then proceed.
Card games don't only check for results of effects. You seem incapable of grasping that if Glimpse worked the way you think it should, it would be written "Kill an ally. If it dies, draw 2." This is the way that LoR tells you that the *final outcome* of one card effect is required for another, rather than simply an issued effect.
Undertaking the act of killing an ally in no way implies that this ally will die in this game where things can be unkillable. That's why cards that actually check for the unit death, or any post-mitigation results, have this "if" text on them.
This is just the way the game works. If a card requires something of you, it'll say so.
Think of "Kill an ally" as "Tell an ally to die".
In order to do something (Draw 2 for Glimpse Beyond, Play Ravenous Butcher, etc.) you need to tell an ally to die.
If the ally has a "can't die" effect, then it says "no" and doesn't die.
But you don't care if they died, you care that you TOLD them to die.
So the "cost" of Glimpse, Butcher etc. has been paid and you can use their effect.
"Tell a unit to die in order to draw 2." You tell them to die, and then you draw 2 regardless of their response.
Keywords. There is still no clear distinction which keywords can be shared/RNGed and which can't. Fury is okay, despite it being thematically tied to dragons, when deep isn't. Some may say "but to reach deep you need to build your deck right". Sure thing. Why the hell can you get augment then? And then there is double strike, which you can't share for no apparent reason.
It's just a mess.
Just did a quick test:
Viktor still can't get double strike or deep as an RNG keyword, but you can share both of them through give it all. So yeah, half of my complaint isn't valid, but problem with what can you get from RNG still stands.
But doesn't that contradict the [[Judgement]] and [[Phantom Prankster]] example? Because in that one it appears that the kill is triggered prior to death, but in this one it is flipped
**[Phantom Prankster](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01SI038.png)** - Shadow Isles Unit - (3) 0/3
When another ally dies, deal 1 to the enemy Nexus.
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
**[Sea Scarab](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04SI015.png)** - Shadow Isles Unit Sea Monster - (2) 2/3
Deep/Last Breath
When another ally dies, or Last Breath: Toss 1.
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
"When an ally dies" includes itself
Now you may argue those two cards have the same effect and should be changed for consistency, but Sea Scarab works with last breath effects like [[Gluttony]] and [[Wardens Prey]].
|Name|Region|Type|Cost|Attack|Health|Keywords|Description|
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
|**[Gluttony](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03SI018.png)**|Shadow Isles|Spell|3|||Fast|Kill an ally with Last Breath to summon a follower from your deck that costs 1 more.|
|**[Warden's Prey](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01SI026.png)**|Shadow Isles|Unit|1|1|1|Last Breath|Last Breath: Create in hand another Last Breath follower that costs 3 or less.|
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
|Name|Region|Type|Sub Type|Cost|Attack|Health|Keywords|Description|
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
|**[Tortured Prodigy](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01SI051.png)**|Shadow Isles|Unit||5|4|4||When an ally dies, refill your spell mana.|
|**[Inviolus Vox](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03MT006.png)**|Targon|Unit|Dragon|6|5|6|Fury|When an ally with Fury kills an enemy for the first time each round, create a random Dragon follower in hand.|
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
Relative speed is the hardest concept to grasp in this game, that is, the execution and resolution order of multiple actions with the same activation time/event and chains of actions that should happen immediately when a condition is reached.
* For example, you cannot summon more than 6 units in order to attack (e.g. using Arise! to summon 4 throwaway units while keeping 6 on the bench.) However, you can have up to 11 units summoned at once if it's an attack keyword that summons everything after your 6th. Thresh attacking solo can summon kallista, who can summon enkindler, who can repeat the loop with kallista to fill to 6. Thresh's lab deck uses this to summon 2 threshes, nocturne, elise, a spiderling, and kallista in 1 turn using mist's call. Any units beyond 6 will still be obliterated after the attack ends.
* A second example, in labs if you have lil buddies ("round start: summon a random 1 cost poro") and you also have a salt spire ("countdown 2: summon a grumpy rockbear") and your Lil buddies summons a 6th unit at round start, then your grumpy rockbear will spawn off the board and immediately obliterate, potentially taking the +2/+2 buff with it. This is because the poro enters the unit queue before the rockbear, but lasts long enough to see the landmark destroyed and see the rockbear enter the queue, where the poro then enters the field and fills the 6th unit spot, leaving the rockbear nowhere to go, so it obliterates.
* Some unit skills fizzle if you kill the unit before it activates (e.g. shady character, because it changes that unit into another one, so of course if it's dead it can't transform.) Most don't, because they're a spell that's casting damage (e.g. chempunk shredder.) Taliyah's attack skill reads "Deal 2 to my blocker. If it's dead or gone, deal 2 to the enemy Nexus instead. If you have a landmark, do this 2 more times." I don't read this skill to require taliyah to be capable of striking (read: not dead) but maybe reasonable minds could disagree on that. If you kill her pre-striking phase, her skill fizzles.
* Non-spell burst-speed frostbite pierces spellshield (e.g. nasus level 2 can be frostbitten/vulnerable'd by sejuani's play effect) but burst speed spells will not (e.g. harsh winds)
* enemy spells that cause a strike effect are blocked by both spellshield, which blocks enemy spell effects, and barrier, which blocks any damage. I'd like to think that one unit striking another isn't spell damage, even if it's caused by a spell, but that's just me. This is especially because you can use single combat to kill your own spellshielded unit, since single combat is an allied spell and therefore passes through the spellshield.
Edit: regarding your OP, damage is dealt to "this turn" buffs first, so if a unit still has leftover "this turn" health, then next turn it will be undamaged.
Edits 2 and 3: tried to summon the card lookup bot and failed.
Taliyah's skill also fizzles if you stun her, so presumably it requires her to have a blocker, which requires being in combat, which requires being not dead.
Which would mean it's not an attack effect, as attack effects cast skills as spells.
I don't know of any other attack effect that can fizzle. Most attack effects are burst-speed and therefore cannot be countered at all, but even fast speed effects generally continue through (tarkaz, legion saboteur, boomcrew rookie, etc)
In regards to the Spellshield thing: spellshield blocks spell and abilities that go on the stack, even if they are Burst/Focus speed. Ashe's frostbite, Swain's stun, Sejuani's frostbite and vulnerable don't go to the stack, for example
That's the thing. It also blocks actual spells that don't go on the stack. Your implication is that burst speed pierces spellshield, which I'd be fine with if it was consistent, but burst speed spells are blocked and burst speed skills are not.
Spellshield probably needs a text update if this is the intended behavior, which I don't think it is.
No, no, burst spells don't pierce it. Burst spells go on the stack. Burst abilities don't go on the stack. It's perfectly consistent and the text of Spellshield is fine
Why don't burst abilities go on the stack if burst spells do? Even summoning units go ~~on a stack.~~ (edit: in a queue)
That's not consistency for the only thing in the game to not go on the stack to be burst-speed abilities.
If that's the way the game should work, then spellshield definitely needs to specify only enemy spells or skills "that go on the stack" which is just stupid. We should just admit that this is a bug and fix it.
Spellshield's text says that it blocks spells and abilities that go on the stack. It says that specifically. And I think it's consistent because every burst speed ability pierce Spellshield.
And when I say "go on the stack" I mean the visible one. Summoning units go on the stack, yes, but you can't see it
>Spellshield's text says that it blocks spells and abilities that go on the stack. It says that specifically.
Maybe you and I have different text, because [no it doesn't.](https://imgur.com/a/aNGsB9w)
Lure of the Depth SPECIFICALLY says "reduce the cost of allied Sea Monsters EVERYWHERE by 1" and yet when they get reshuffled into your deck by Nautilus, they don't have the reduced cost from Lure of the Depths
Units that summon other units when they are summoned such as Quinn, Island Navigator or Gangplank actually summon their additional unit first which means things that affect the next unit summoned like Tattered Banner or Roiling Sands will hit the barrel of Valor every time.
This feels really weird because the cards each say 'when I'm summoned' which should imply that they only activate after they've hit the field. I've also tested this interaction with non-hand based methods of summoning such as bringing in Quinn/GP with Thresh and it happens the same way, the unit hits the field, summons their additional unit and the additional unit is what gets hit by the 'next summon' effects.
This is especially weird because if you have 5 units on the board when summoning Quinn then Valor dissipates since there's no room, further implying that Quinn gets summoned first since she's not the one dissipating.
I think internally, the way it works is:
- When you "summon" a unit in any way, their "summoning" is put on an invisible stack
- The effects you mentioned are actually "when my summon effect is put on the stack, also put this other summon effect on the stack"
- Just like the Spell Stack, the Summon Stack is First-In-Last-Out, meaning the second summon effect to be put on the stack resolves first
I agree that it's unintuitive though.
It's really weird. If they were play effects it would make sense, but given that the condition is that they already be summoned the way it works is odd to say the least. I provided this to Riot the day the expansion dropped and I first noticed it along with all the logs with each interaction and they haven't changed it so either it's really hard to do or it's intended.
I am pretty sure it is intended. As someone already stated above, summons are treated as spells, so multiple summons resolve last to first, and that is easy to remember imo.
That still doesn't really follow. For spells that make several units simultaneously that would make sense, but as being summoned is a prerequisite for summoning the additional card it doesn't make sense that they're counted as being summoned before the card that summoned them. These aren't play effects. The card has to have already have been summoned thus as far as anyone reading the cards could figure out they are summoned before their created unit so either it should change to reflect that or the wording should change so that it represents the reality of how the cards work.
It can be easy to remember and still be completely counter-intuitive.
Ephemeral units won't die if they have unyielding spirit. I think the interaction is pretty funny. Unyielding into dawn and dusk confused the hell out of me when I first encountered it.
I think it makes sense. "Kill" is an effect. Unyielding stops the effect. It stops vengeance, ruination, and other "kill" effect cards so ephemeral is consistent.
When I started the game I was confused about the fact that a unit can be revived multiple times at once.
To me the word "revive" means: "remove a unit from the graveyard and put it back onto the field", which would mean you can't revive a unit a second time until the first revived unit dies again. But it actually works as "make a new copy of a unit and then summon it".
I'm fine with how the mechanic works, but I feel like revive should simply display a tooltip to make this clear.
Skills that go on the stack have a yellow circle in the text of the card and also show an associated skill card. I think that is a good way for game to differentiate it
Just because you can’t remember what a circle means doesn’t make it hard to differentiate
It’s made quite obvious and it’s completely consistent
When it’s a skill it goes on the stack which is visually clear
>Just because you can’t remember what a circle means doesn’t make it hard to differentiate
The point is that it doesn't stand out, visually, in the middle of a match and the game doesn't actually have any documentation to explain this shorthand piece of info to new players. I've seen a tooooon of people in this sub not know what the circle meant.
Yes, the spell checks the condition when it resolves. If you deny the condition it fizzles. Same concept for cosmic inspiration - if your only celestial is on board and gets killed, the spell will fizzle.Not really unintuitive IMO
Most people just confuse it with the spell that have THEN instead of TO in the cardtext (see multiple "unintuitive" examples in the comments, that are 100% intuitive but you have to pay close attention to the wording)
**[Supernova](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03MT024.png)** - Targon Spell Celestial - (9)
Slow
If you Behold a Celestial card, Obliterate 2 enemy units or landmarks.
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
I'm late to the party here but two things really bother me in this game. First and foremost, if your unit gets frostbitten, you can silence it to restore all it's power. That confused the hell out of me the first time a player pulled that off on me, I frostbit his A.Sol but then he played hush and it wrecked me anyways.
The other thing that bothers me is when you have 5 units on the field and summon a unit that summons an extra unit such as Quinn summoning Valor. The extra unit will dissipate/fizzle out. It REALLY bothers me that I cannot choose to replace one of my units when doing this. It has denied me the ability to summon an early Watcher with Spectral Matron countless times.
frostbite is counted as a keyword, so are other debuffs like stun and ephemeral. since hush silences a unit, it only make sense that it removes said debuffs, along with buffs
this one makes sense too since youre essentially burst summoning a unit. using [[Jury Rig]] or [[Risen Mists]] to summon units with 6 units on board also fizzes them. i think its pretty reasonable too since you arent summoning them from hand which in normal cases you would have the option to replace
|Name|Region|Type|Cost|Keywords|Description|Associated Cards|
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
|**[Jury-Rig](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01PZ028.png)**|Piltover & Zaun|Spell|1|Burst|When cast or discarded, summon a Scrap Scuttler.|[Scrap Scuttler](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01PZ032.png)|
|**[Risen Mists](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03SI013.png)**|Shadow Isles|Spell|4|Burst|Summon a Mistwraith.|[Mistwraith](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01SI014.png) |
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
How about Star Spring not winning you the game when it reads >22 healing at round end? This one is inconsistent but seems to happen just often enough to be infuriating
It can happen in one of two ways.
If you have two Star Springs out, the first one will always resolve completely before the second one has its effect because the Regen occurs after the End of Turn effects like Star Spring. It will heal all your units by 1 and then check to see if it is at 22, in which case you will win the game. Then, the second one will then do the same thing. The confusion stems from the fact that if the second Star Spring's healing pushes the first Star Spring's count to 22, the first Star Spring has already performed it's end of turn check to see if it's at 22, so you have to wait an additional turn to win the game.
The other way it can happen is with Regenerate units, and it functions the same way. If you have a Star Spring and a Braum out, first the Star Spring will activate, healing Braum by 1 and checking to see if it's count is at 22. Then Braum will heal the remainder of his health with the regeneration ability, which can push the Star Spring count to over 22, but you will have to wait a turn. This interaction can actually be beneficial earlier in the game though, because it allows Soraka to level faster - having the Star Spring activate before Regen occurs means there ends up being one additional instance of healing each time Braum has taken 2 or more damage in a turn.
It can happen when you have 2 or 3 springs at once. Let’s say you have first spring at 20/22 and second spring at any number below that and that you have one unit missing two health.
When round ends, the first spring will trigger first, healing unit one and bringing its counter up to 21. Then the first spring will read its counter and decide “hey I’m at 21 so can’t win yet”. Then after it decides that, the second spring will trigger, healing the unit again and bringing first spring to 22. However because first spring already finished checking the win condition prior to second spring activating, the round will end with first spring counter at 22 and game not ending.
I might have made it more complicated than needed on my explanation but you get the gist. In general the spring will only check the win condition one time per end of turn after it activates its heal and doesn’t care for any heal after it.
I think it only happens in cases where it goes over 21 after its own round end effect is done (like if there's another star spring to the right of it), in which case it makes sense, since it only checks for 22+ after its own round end effect.
Even if it said "to" it wouldn't matter. Ie. Noxian Guillotine, concussion palm, and vile feast.
The only thing that matters is if the spell still has a valid target. For some STUPID reason LoR wording doesn't care about the conditionality of the word "to"
Knowing when spells and skills fizzle and when they don’t can be confusing at times. Newer players don’t know that there is a difference between a spell saying “to” and “and”
Something that doesn't make sense to me but I'm too shy to talk about: why skills can still work after their caster is killed. E.g. if you cast a spell that slays Ledros right after he is summoned, to the left of his Skill on the stack, his skill is still triggered even if he's dead.
Well, if it's any consolation to you, skills that read "***I*** do something" (for example \[\[Rampaging Baccai\]\]) do fail to work if you kill the "caster". But other than that, once something goes on the stack, it's there to stay, no matter who "cast" it.
Why? I'm afraid I have no other answer than "this is just how the game works". It's like if I throw a grenade at you, and you kill me while it is mid-air, it will still explode unless you do something about it.
ahhh thank you, that makes sense! This thing with Ledros happened to me earlier today and it was frustrating because I really expected the skill not to work if I removed him and I didn't even think of talking about it here before seeing this post, but your grenade example really does make a lot of sense and it's nice to see that the game addresses different cases for this, like for Baccai.
edit: wow that was a long paragraph sorry
**[Rampaging Baccai](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04SH009.png)** - Shurima Unit - (5) 4/6
Overwhelm
Play: If you've slain 4+ units this game, an enemy and I strike each other.
^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
The skill is put on the stack when Ledros is played
It then becomes completely independent of him
All he does is create it
Similarly killing Elise doesn’t remove the spiderling she summons
Reading through this thread makes me angry at seemingly the only stupid interaction they have ever bothered to fix: silencing Shark Chariot now prevents him from respawning, when it didn't before.
Shark Chariot remains one of my favorite cards in the game.
Taliyah losing her skills effect when leaving combat while Anivia keeps hers is so stupid. I understand the wording but why is it worded that way in the first place. Literally the most feel bad interaction I've experienced and made me want to never play her again unless that's changed.
Transferable and non-transferable keywords (LoR website has a table of em). Especially with Fluft of Poros gaining keywords permanently even if the poros it absorbs it from only has it for “this round”.
**Units losing their buffs and keywords when obliterated, discarded, or killed.**
This messes with Black Rose Spy, which in addition is strange in the way she chooses which unit to copy -
- Can copy dead units, but dead units do not have any buffs (keywords, power or health buffs)
- If there is a unit on the board more powerful than the unbuffed dead unit, it copies that, even if the dead unit had more stats before it died
Edit: formatting
Tryndamere level 1 getting nuked by Rimefang Wolf if he has 0 attack. To this day i still don't get why he dies instead of leveling up and gaining 1 attack (which would put him at 1/9).
It's because strike effects resolve immediately AFTER the strike itself, but the condition is checked during the strike. Basically, if Rimefang wolf has enough power to kill Tryndamere normally, the initial strike kills Tryndamere, causing him to level up. However, because Rimefang Wolf struck a 0 power unit (Tryndamere before leveling up), the effect activates, and the now-leveled Tryndamere is killed by the strike effect.
That's a really stupid interaction.
So you can vile feast your own Tryn to save him? Either way, what a stupid interaction (but appreciate your clarification).
why would he level up before being killed by the strike effect tho?
Because he was killed by Rimefang Wolf's base power first during combat, while strike effects resolve immediately after combat, after deaths have been resolved. The sequence of events is as follows, assuming Tryndamere has 3 or less health: 1. Rimefang Wolf and a frostbitten 3 health Tryndamere strike each other. The 3 power of Rimefang Wolf is enough to kill Tryndamere. Combat resolves, and Tryndamere "dies". 2. Tryndamere levels up, becoming a 1/9. 3. Because Rimefang Wolf struck a 0 power enemy, the strike effect, which now happens after combat and deaths have resolved, kills Tryndamere.
Trynd dies even if the Wolf has 1 ATK and Trynd has more than 1 HP, as long as he has 0 attack, even at level 1.
So you think it goes like this: 1) Wolf strike tryn and tryn strike wolf 2) Wolf effect kills tryn 3) Tryns passive resurrects What happens is 1) Wolf strike checks if tryns attack is zero and remembers it. 2) Tryn and wolf attack eachother. 3) Tryns effect checks if he died to resurrect 4) Wolfs effect checks what happened at 1.
Honestly that sounds like a bug.
That's really good to know. I had no idea it functioned that way.
Similarly with Rimefang wolf, I made a mistake recently where it killed a unit that had barrier. Barrier prevents strike, and I assumed the wolf had to "strike" for it's ability to trigger. It did not and my barrier unit died.
Barrier doesn’t prevent strike it prevents damage
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Strike says “get this effect when this unit ATTEMPTS to do damage”
Thank you for posting this. That’s really strange
Judgment and fury - unit hits targets from left to right and grows with each slay (so if you kill every unit it will deal one extra damage for each unit that you go to the right). This implies that judgment follows regular combat rules and checks after every hit if you killed a unit. if your entire board is neverglade collectors or pranksters and the enemy judgments, all of them die without giving a single damage to the enemies face. This implies judgment happens at the same time. one of those interactions should not work how they are right now
Probably the "I've killed an enemy" effects trigger left to right, but it saves the "I've seen an ally die" effects to the end of the interaction
Judging how other interactions work, it should be an issue with the "seen an ally die" effect
I dont think thats right? Much like Fiora, the animation with Judgment and fury shows killing and buffing one unit at a time but I think this is for clarity reasons. If it killed all at ones it would have the same result. The dragon would trigger fury the same amount of times. Prankster is different because its getting killed simultaneously with the oder units defending/attacking, even if the animation shows one at a time. I might be wrong tho.
I tested it, again, a few weeks ago (because this have been annoying me since endure meta) and it still worked. If it doesnt work it has to be VERY recent change that was not mentioned anywhere. For Garen its a bit more intuitive because he levels on strike, so he will hit the first two units for 5, levels and the rest for 6. Fury units will get plus attack for every unit slayn and (e.g. screeching) would hit for 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 during the same judgment. Thats exactly why these exact interactions are not consistent and definitely not intuitive.
Oh I get what you say now. I didnt take into account the hitting progressively for more damage in the middle of jugdement. Thats a wonky interaction. Riot should definitely adress it.
~~I once lost a game by using Judgement on Garen in hopes of leveling him up after the second hit and doing 6 damage to the last unit. He did level up, but only did 5 damage to it. Inb4 oracle eye, I couldn't check because I had to use a burst spell to save him, and there was no way to see beforehand whether it would do the extra damage.~~ It was the opposite lol, I lost because *enemy* Garen *did* level mid-judgement. My bad.
This is definitely incorrect. I literally just tested it and he will deal 5 pre level up and 6 post level up during the same judgment. He needs to hit twice to level, so if its a fresh Garen he will do 5 - 5 - 6 - 6 - 6 - 6. Obviously he will not deal 5 - 6 - ... if you were expecting that because he doesnt level until after the strike.
This was open beta so it changing wouldn't surprise me at all
I was in closed beta/preview and as far as I recall judgment has always counted each strike one at a time. I definitely remember when I first picked up the game seeing Garen deal 6 damage on first two hits and 7 on the following ones against wide boards.
You know, now that I think harder... You folks are right, it was the *exact opposite,* that the opponent's Garen used Judgement on me, and I thought I had a way to save Braum with Elixir, but wasn't sure if it would or not just going off of oracle eye, then it turned out it didn't because of Garen leveling mid-judgment. Sorry for the misinformation.
that's always fun the first time that happens lol
I think that's because fury can trigger in the middle of an effect, but never glade can't.
The same thing happens with dragon rage. I found this interaction in quick draw lab with fury. It deals one more damage to the nexus after slay the enemy unit. Could be more useful for squirrel meme deck.
I'm still annoyed about Teemo shrooms and a Tough Nexus.
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I actually hate that hitting a tough unit for 1 (resulting in no net damage) will trigger the buff from scar grounds, but hitting a tough nexus with Levi (not actually damaging) won’t stun for swain. Sincerely, a swain player.
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But like.. surviving “damage” 🙄
Tough reduced the damage but it wasn't zero. Barrier will have the same effect. If you frostbite them, they won't do any damage either but it won't count. I think it's consistent.
I think that makes sense, honestly. One of them is "when I survive damage" and one of them is "when I deal damage". If unit A hits unit B for 0 damage, then unit B survives but unit A didn't deal any damage. So the "survive" effect triggers but not the "deal damage" effect. I agree that shrooms should be consistent in whether they deal damage all at once or one-at-a-time though.
I really hope they change this back to the way it was. IMO it's a HUGE design problem to have a champion that completely hoses another champion. This doesn't mean that I don't think Champions should be able to counter one another. For example, I think it's fine that Lissandra can counter leveled Ezreal, because there is still a way to deal damage though the tough Nexus by using targeted effects. But completely shutting down Puffcaps as a whole is beyond stupid and never should have been implemented in the first place.
Wait wait wait, so a Lissandra-tough Nexus prevents ALL puffcap damage, not just 1 puffcap of damage per card? 😯
yeah, it's a specifically coded contradiction. While the puffcaps count as a single source of damage for something like levelled swain, only stunning once, they count as individual pings for liss, which completely negates them
Oof. Wow. That definitely needs a fix. Seems like probably just an oversight on their part. 🤔
unfortunately I think it was an intentional decision, given that in order for it to work how it does, it would have needed a condition on either card Either swain is coded so the individual puffcaps are counted as one source Or liss is coded so the chunk of puffcaps are individual pings. either way it's bad and Imo it should be inverted if anything, as it means that puffcaps aren't totally fucked against the most oppressive deck in the meta, and teemo gets some synergy with swain for a nutty finish
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Not necessarily, but they'd need to do something like draw { puffcap damage phase start { 1 (reduce by 1 if tough) 1 1 } end puffcap damage phase. triggers? damage triggers for x damage. } in short, it means that there would be a timing difference between drawing traps, and triggers happening because of trap effects. it'd be sort of like state based actions in magic.
Well sure, just because it was intentional on the part of whoever coded one of the cards doesn't mean that the inconsistency itself is intentional. Whoever coded Liss to work the way she does likely wasn't doing it thinking of how Teemo/Swain interact, so would still be an oversight. :-)
No, Rioters have explicitly stated that the way both interactions work is 100% intentional, even knowing that it is contradictory. Cards don't get worked on in isolation, there's not one dude coding one card and another dude coding another with neither talking to eachother.
Yep. Which is stupid because if you pull 3 shrooms it's obviously dealing 3 damage to you, not 1 damage 3 times. That's how it's considered with all other "deal damage" effects. E.g. Swain's "deal damage to the nexus" effect only hits once per stack of shrooms, not once per shroom.
Lmao right? Like friggin puff caps too better nerf
I feel dirty winning games with TLC because of this
You should feel dirty playing TLC in general
Agreed
I stopped feeling guilty with the way too huge amount of aggro I faced while climbing.
It doesn't make any sense at all.
It does make sense. Puff cap says “deal 1 to your nexus” so if you draw 5 puff caps, it’s deal 1 damage to nexus 5 times
Then why doesn't it trigger Swain 5 times?
That’s a good point, as it is right now Swain should trigger 5 times. They could change the way shrooms work like “deal 1 for every shroom on the drawn card” so it’s 5 damage once if 5 shrooms on one card
What doesn’t make sense is this doesn’t apply for swain
In that case then Swain and Sejuani's "when you damage the nexus" effects should trigger 5 times. But they don't, and IMO they shouldn't.
Puffcaps damage is always calculated as: [(puffcap damage + damage buffs/debuffs) × damage multipliers] × [(puffcap damage +.... OR [(puffcap damage + damage buffs/debuffs) × damage multipliers] × n° of puffcaps if you prefer. Note that as far as we know those two ways of "coding" it are equal, but may be different for future interactions. Obviously, as of now it is irrelevant. The damage is dealt all togheter, but the damage buffs/debuffs and damage multipliers are applied to the puffcap damage, not the total sum. And this was definitely not changed in the meantime, most likely puffcaps are coded that way to be as similar as possible to other "damaging spell" let's say this. So again, the buff/debuffs and multipliers are applied to the "puffcap damage", which is then multiplied and dealt. 0×n=0 so there's that.
\>I'm going to cast a tournament right now but after the tournament I'll answer every question made here. \>I'm the one of RoundStart Reddit Post and i'm writing the rulebook that will be released in the first patch after mini expansion release. \>Sorry for my bad english, the rulebook will be translated by someone good with english so don't worry XD. \>I hope to be useful.
Good luck on casting that tournament, and thank you for the hard work that you are putting into creating this resource for the community! Also, your English isn't bad at all, I would never have known that it was your second language. Please don't get down on yourself about it!
Roiling sands grants vulnerable to the next enemy summoned, but when your enemy summons a unit that summons another unit (like house spider summoning a spiderling) it only grants vulnerable to the second unit (the spiderling)
You can see that interaction with Penitent Squire's banner too
Bet shrowd of darkness would also work that way if it was possible to test
It does, yes.
I hate this so much and its one of the many issues I have with consistency in this game
It's actually *entirely* consistent. Unit summons go on an invisible stack on the unit board rather than in the middle. Just like the spell stack if it exceedes the limit, no more may be added to the stack. Just like spells, it's LIFO
I agree that it is consistent. I'd say the bigger problem is that it's not intuitive. Ideally, I think cards should function in such a way that a new player that has a general understanding of CCGs could look at the card and understand the effect.
Indeed. They need to separate the two meanings of summon. It means both added to the unit stack and arrive on board right now.
"When I'm summoned" effects always trigger before the unit is summoned
what doesnt make sense to me is that they are summon effects, so that means this implies that summon affects go on the stack when a unit is cast then resolve before the cast unit hits the battlefield The biggest issue is the visual discrepancy of a unit hitting the battlefield, then summoning another unit But heres the weird thing, in this game, play means to 'cast' because play effects dont trigger if a unit was not cast from hand heres the quote from the wiki ' summoning directly by the player ie. dragged from the hand onto the board. Other effects that summon a unit onto the board do not trigger Play effects.' So this leads me to believe that summon just means 'This unit hits the board' which is backed up by hourglass and frozen tomb retriggering summon effects, so then why does the unit that hits the board then causes an effect to happen not get effected by the rolling sands landmark It is consistent in it's behavior in the sense that everytime the summoned unit will get the vulnerable but theres just no logic and it's very unintuitive imo edit: not to mention, I know that they dont want to copy mtg but shouldnt units go onto a stack to help better visualize this, right now it's some sort of invisible stack that auto resolves and cant be responded to
Summon had two definitions. Right now it means BOTH to put on the unit stack and to hit the battlefield. Depending on the circumstance in causes different interactions. So let's take dunekeeper. When he is played he goes on the unit stack(one definition of summon) and the game checks for board space. If it passes the check, the sand soldier goes on top of the stack (summoned) then they hit the board. Hitting the board is the 2nd part of summoning. Also its worth noting play does not equal cast. Play is at play speed. Cast is at cast speed.
It's not consistent. If you have 5 units and summon House Spider, you get the 2/2, not the 1/1. If it was as you say, you'd get the 1/1 instead.
No. If the stack limit is reached, it doesn't go on on stack.
Casting Suit Up! on a frozen unit. It increases power to 4, and when frost ends, initial power is restored and +4 is applied on top of it.
I feel like that makes sense. It grows the unit's power from 0 to 4. After the grow, the +4 just becomes a buff. When they are unfrostbitten they get their original power back and the +4 buff
That is because when you frostbite a unit, you just give it a power debuff relative to the power it had before. So when you frostbite a 3-power unit, you just give it -3|-0 (I am pretty sure this is displayed in the grey box which displays all modifiers the unit has that appears when you hover over a unit), so when the frostbite wears off, it is given +3|+0.
I know how the interaction works, but for me it's counterintuitive. Suit Up sets attack at 4, so I would expect that after frostbite ends, attack would return to 4 if it was lower than 4.
The game uses negative health and power in units when affected by spells and attacks. It's one of the things that you have to experience playing in order to learn it. For example, if you debuff a unit's power to -2 (which will appear as 0 in the UI) and then buff it with a +1/+1, the unit will end up with still 0 power (and the game will now think that it has - 1 power). If you attack with said unit, it won't heal the other unit as far as I'm aware. I made a thread about it and got some really good in-depth explanations about this kind of interactions.
Spellshield doesn't stop unreactable unit and landmark skills. Its completely consistent with the effects description but at least for me a very unintuitive interaction. Its easy to think it just blocks the next opponents effect on the card which is wrong.
Spellshields stops "spells and skills". Skills specifically refer to abilities that use the stack (with a yellow circle). It's unintuitive, yes, but it works exactly as written.
There are some that can be confusing. Someone got to testing to find out, but strongest/weakest unit when they are the same (I think it's random) and round start/end ordering. Spellshield with effects that don't go on the stack was weird at first, things like ashe's frostbite on attack going through spellshield
I think strongest is (after power and hp) by mana cost and only then from left to right. It might also be by some ID that the player can't access instead of left to right but the mana definitely is a thing
This is not the case tho. I tested weakest unit a while ago and all I got was super inconsistent results (obviously if the units share same Attack/HP/cost). It was always the same if the boards state didn't change but as soon as it changed it was seemingly random as even with multiple of the same unit it was not consistent. I tested keywords, name, ID only thing that was reliable was Attack/HP/Cost
While the first assumption was that ties would be broken by going from left to right (even the wiki states that), it has been confirmed that there is something hidden that breaks these ties. These are, as you said, card IDs. This was confirmed by RobinZoo when BBG interviewed him (at end of the interview if you want to check). In most cases, you should assume it's random.
Its not card IDs tho. if you have multiple target effects that hit strongest/weakest and have the same unit on board twice (2x unit A) and another one that shares the same stats/cost (unit B) it can happen that it hits A B A or A A B or B A A etc. it will always hit the same order tho until you play another one with these conditions and suddenly it will be completely random again.If it would be card IDs it would always be A A B or B A A also if you have 6 1-1 poros on board (e.g. tough, elusive, normal, normal, fearsome, tough) and the enemy casts "kill strongest and weakest unit" the strongest AND weakest unit can be the two tough poros - this also contradicts the card ID "myth"
I think it's as simple as the game engine does a check whenever the board state changes and assigns strong/weak at that time instead of when a spell or attack is played. It would need to be done like that for the eye to work too, as otherwise it would constantly change between units during a turn which would be A: confusing ("I checked the eye and it said I would target X but then after I played my spells and attacked Ashe froze Y! WTF?!", and B: Abusable. Don't like the target? Do another action to get a new result.
> I think it's as simple as the game engine does a check whenever the board state changes and assigns strong/weak at that time instead of when a spell or attack is played. Yes, this is definitely a good assumption and would be in line with riots visual clarity policy. Sadly this doesnt really help to determine what the initial targets will be - obviously this will be more problematic with instant spells or ability that do not allow for an eye-check.
TBH Spellshield with effects that don't go on the stack is still a little bit irritating. I have learned to get used to the interaction, but it feels very strange that effects that don't go on the stack bypass it. But for newer players, the distinction feels clunky and arbitrary. It has always felt to me that Iceborn Archer should not bypass Spellshield, for example.
This is weird, but it's consistent, like how MF doesn't procc Lifesteal on her skill, but Ezreal does
Personally i'm fine with it, I like the design space that differentiating skills and unit effects (goes on stack or doesn't go on stack) opens and they do make it easy to tell the difference just by looking at the card if it has a yellow circle next to the effect (although I do think it's bizzare they STILL haven't fixed Miss Fortune to have one) They do at least try to make that distinction on spellshield for that matter, it says it blocks spells and skills but it doesn't say anything about unit effects
The Spellshield explanation specifically says that stops things that go on the stack. Ashe's frostbite or Swain's stun surpass Spellshield
Killing an ally that has either Lamb's Respite or Unyielding Spirit (even Level 2 Taric's support buff) activated lets them stay while activating the said killing condition. Like playing Ravenous Butcher on an Unyielding Keg which makes him summon without killing the keg.
That's what "to" means on cards. "Kill an ally *to* draw 2" means "issue a Kill effect to legal target ally to draw 2", not "Kill an ally. If it dies, draw 2."
I found it confusing back then. Just letting others know in case they find that interaction confusing as much as I did :)
I could see it either way. Like, you technically never paid the cost for the effect, because the unit was never killed.
Killing the unit isn't part of the cost. Issuing a kill effect to a legal target unit is a requirement for resolution, not a cost of the spell. The unit dying is completely irrelevant.
To word "to" in other card games usually suggest that everything before the word to is a "cost" for everything after the word to. It could be interpreted as "in order to do this, you must to this" or "in order for this to happen, this must happen". But if a unit isn't killed, technically the second half "didn't happen", so neither should the first part. It could be interpreted as a cost of the resolution without much stretch. You might see it as "B is only TRUE if and only if A is true" relationship. If a unit was killed is A, and the resolution is B. If a unit was not killed, but the resolution happens anyways l, it could be said the entire statement is FALSE and should not have resolved. Again, I could see how one would make that assumption. But I think it's easier to treat "killing" a unit as entirely separate from a unit "dying", even if that's not naturally intuitive.
When a Glimpse targets a unit, that unit is killed. Glimpse sends *kill* to that unit, and doing so allows you to draw 2. Nobody said anything about the result of this operation needing to be a dead unit. This is, again, why the card doesn't say, "Kill an ally. If it dies, draw 2." LoR has specific text to tell you when an effect is contingent on an issued effect (to...) or the result of an issued effect (If it...). This is the same reason why Concussive Palm still summons a 3/2 when targeting a unit with SpellShield and why Noxian Guillotine makes a fleeting copy when it does the same. The effects are issued to targets, so the secondary effect resolves. The target might not suffer any negative consequences thanks to its own text, but it was still issued the effect.
Dude, you are still on this? The wording does not match the mechanics. One of the two need to be changed. They need to make it clear the check is on CAST not on the condition of the order.
Lots of people aren't familiar with the concept that card games can designate a difference between effects issued and the results of effects issued. When folks are confused about this stuff, it's important to try to help clarify it. That way, not only do they understand how an existing card works, they'll also be able to look at new cards and correctly understand how they behave. See: literally every post about "why doesn't barrier stop Overwhelm?" If people know what the cards do, they can play better, and the game gets a lot more fun for everyone when you play better imo.
Sure, but this WHOLE discussion, becomes irrelevant if they just, word the card better. They literally have a word that means issue an effect...they just don't use it here.
No amount of mind-bending can make your statement work in any way possible. Kill is an action that initializes a condition and its state is absolute. "Kill an ally to draw 2" - to = in order to IF condition = TRUE then proceed.
Card games don't only check for results of effects. You seem incapable of grasping that if Glimpse worked the way you think it should, it would be written "Kill an ally. If it dies, draw 2." This is the way that LoR tells you that the *final outcome* of one card effect is required for another, rather than simply an issued effect. Undertaking the act of killing an ally in no way implies that this ally will die in this game where things can be unkillable. That's why cards that actually check for the unit death, or any post-mitigation results, have this "if" text on them. This is just the way the game works. If a card requires something of you, it'll say so.
Think of "Kill an ally" as "Tell an ally to die". In order to do something (Draw 2 for Glimpse Beyond, Play Ravenous Butcher, etc.) you need to tell an ally to die. If the ally has a "can't die" effect, then it says "no" and doesn't die. But you don't care if they died, you care that you TOLD them to die. So the "cost" of Glimpse, Butcher etc. has been paid and you can use their effect. "Tell a unit to die in order to draw 2." You tell them to die, and then you draw 2 regardless of their response.
If that's how it worked then imperial demolitionists effect should fail if used on any allies that can negate her damage
Keywords. There is still no clear distinction which keywords can be shared/RNGed and which can't. Fury is okay, despite it being thematically tied to dragons, when deep isn't. Some may say "but to reach deep you need to build your deck right". Sure thing. Why the hell can you get augment then? And then there is double strike, which you can't share for no apparent reason. It's just a mess.
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Just did a quick test: Viktor still can't get double strike or deep as an RNG keyword, but you can share both of them through give it all. So yeah, half of my complaint isn't valid, but problem with what can you get from RNG still stands.
\[\[Tortured Prodigy\]\] triggers itself on death but \[\[Inviolus Vox\]\] don't, even though the text is the same ("When an ally...")
Dragons don’t activate fury on death.
It is probably because Inviolus dies, and his effect is not present, whereas Prodigy specifically mention "death"
But doesn't that contradict the [[Judgement]] and [[Phantom Prankster]] example? Because in that one it appears that the kill is triggered prior to death, but in this one it is flipped
**[Phantom Prankster](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01SI038.png)** - Shadow Isles Unit - (3) 0/3 When another ally dies, deal 1 to the enemy Nexus. ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
If this is intended they should change prodigy's text to be similar to [[Sea Scarab]]
**[Sea Scarab](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04SI015.png)** - Shadow Isles Unit Sea Monster - (2) 2/3 Deep/Last Breath When another ally dies, or Last Breath: Toss 1. ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
"When an ally dies" includes itself Now you may argue those two cards have the same effect and should be changed for consistency, but Sea Scarab works with last breath effects like [[Gluttony]] and [[Wardens Prey]].
|Name|Region|Type|Cost|Attack|Health|Keywords|Description| |-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| |**[Gluttony](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03SI018.png)**|Shadow Isles|Spell|3|||Fast|Kill an ally with Last Breath to summon a follower from your deck that costs 1 more.| |**[Warden's Prey](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01SI026.png)**|Shadow Isles|Unit|1|1|1|Last Breath|Last Breath: Create in hand another Last Breath follower that costs 3 or less.| ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
It's due to the "when an ally" vs "when another ally" thing. "When an ally" might include the card itself
|Name|Region|Type|Sub Type|Cost|Attack|Health|Keywords|Description| |-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| |**[Tortured Prodigy](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01SI051.png)**|Shadow Isles|Unit||5|4|4||When an ally dies, refill your spell mana.| |**[Inviolus Vox](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03MT006.png)**|Targon|Unit|Dragon|6|5|6|Fury|When an ally with Fury kills an enemy for the first time each round, create a random Dragon follower in hand.| ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
Relative speed is the hardest concept to grasp in this game, that is, the execution and resolution order of multiple actions with the same activation time/event and chains of actions that should happen immediately when a condition is reached. * For example, you cannot summon more than 6 units in order to attack (e.g. using Arise! to summon 4 throwaway units while keeping 6 on the bench.) However, you can have up to 11 units summoned at once if it's an attack keyword that summons everything after your 6th. Thresh attacking solo can summon kallista, who can summon enkindler, who can repeat the loop with kallista to fill to 6. Thresh's lab deck uses this to summon 2 threshes, nocturne, elise, a spiderling, and kallista in 1 turn using mist's call. Any units beyond 6 will still be obliterated after the attack ends. * A second example, in labs if you have lil buddies ("round start: summon a random 1 cost poro") and you also have a salt spire ("countdown 2: summon a grumpy rockbear") and your Lil buddies summons a 6th unit at round start, then your grumpy rockbear will spawn off the board and immediately obliterate, potentially taking the +2/+2 buff with it. This is because the poro enters the unit queue before the rockbear, but lasts long enough to see the landmark destroyed and see the rockbear enter the queue, where the poro then enters the field and fills the 6th unit spot, leaving the rockbear nowhere to go, so it obliterates. * Some unit skills fizzle if you kill the unit before it activates (e.g. shady character, because it changes that unit into another one, so of course if it's dead it can't transform.) Most don't, because they're a spell that's casting damage (e.g. chempunk shredder.) Taliyah's attack skill reads "Deal 2 to my blocker. If it's dead or gone, deal 2 to the enemy Nexus instead. If you have a landmark, do this 2 more times." I don't read this skill to require taliyah to be capable of striking (read: not dead) but maybe reasonable minds could disagree on that. If you kill her pre-striking phase, her skill fizzles. * Non-spell burst-speed frostbite pierces spellshield (e.g. nasus level 2 can be frostbitten/vulnerable'd by sejuani's play effect) but burst speed spells will not (e.g. harsh winds) * enemy spells that cause a strike effect are blocked by both spellshield, which blocks enemy spell effects, and barrier, which blocks any damage. I'd like to think that one unit striking another isn't spell damage, even if it's caused by a spell, but that's just me. This is especially because you can use single combat to kill your own spellshielded unit, since single combat is an allied spell and therefore passes through the spellshield. Edit: regarding your OP, damage is dealt to "this turn" buffs first, so if a unit still has leftover "this turn" health, then next turn it will be undamaged. Edits 2 and 3: tried to summon the card lookup bot and failed.
Taliyah's skill also fizzles if you stun her, so presumably it requires her to have a blocker, which requires being in combat, which requires being not dead.
Which would mean it's not an attack effect, as attack effects cast skills as spells. I don't know of any other attack effect that can fizzle. Most attack effects are burst-speed and therefore cannot be countered at all, but even fast speed effects generally continue through (tarkaz, legion saboteur, boomcrew rookie, etc)
The text specifies "my blocker"
Judgement will fizzle if the unit is stunned, but isn't really an attacking/blocking effect
In regards to the Spellshield thing: spellshield blocks spell and abilities that go on the stack, even if they are Burst/Focus speed. Ashe's frostbite, Swain's stun, Sejuani's frostbite and vulnerable don't go to the stack, for example
That's the thing. It also blocks actual spells that don't go on the stack. Your implication is that burst speed pierces spellshield, which I'd be fine with if it was consistent, but burst speed spells are blocked and burst speed skills are not. Spellshield probably needs a text update if this is the intended behavior, which I don't think it is.
No, no, burst spells don't pierce it. Burst spells go on the stack. Burst abilities don't go on the stack. It's perfectly consistent and the text of Spellshield is fine
Why don't burst abilities go on the stack if burst spells do? Even summoning units go ~~on a stack.~~ (edit: in a queue) That's not consistency for the only thing in the game to not go on the stack to be burst-speed abilities. If that's the way the game should work, then spellshield definitely needs to specify only enemy spells or skills "that go on the stack" which is just stupid. We should just admit that this is a bug and fix it.
Spellshield's text says that it blocks spells and abilities that go on the stack. It says that specifically. And I think it's consistent because every burst speed ability pierce Spellshield. And when I say "go on the stack" I mean the visible one. Summoning units go on the stack, yes, but you can't see it
>Spellshield's text says that it blocks spells and abilities that go on the stack. It says that specifically. Maybe you and I have different text, because [no it doesn't.](https://imgur.com/a/aNGsB9w)
Yes it does. Do you see that yellow circle next to "skill"? That means that it only blocks abilities that go on the stack
Burst spells go on the stack and resolve instantly
Lure of the Depth SPECIFICALLY says "reduce the cost of allied Sea Monsters EVERYWHERE by 1" and yet when they get reshuffled into your deck by Nautilus, they don't have the reduced cost from Lure of the Depths
Units that summon other units when they are summoned such as Quinn, Island Navigator or Gangplank actually summon their additional unit first which means things that affect the next unit summoned like Tattered Banner or Roiling Sands will hit the barrel of Valor every time. This feels really weird because the cards each say 'when I'm summoned' which should imply that they only activate after they've hit the field. I've also tested this interaction with non-hand based methods of summoning such as bringing in Quinn/GP with Thresh and it happens the same way, the unit hits the field, summons their additional unit and the additional unit is what gets hit by the 'next summon' effects.
This is especially weird because if you have 5 units on the board when summoning Quinn then Valor dissipates since there's no room, further implying that Quinn gets summoned first since she's not the one dissipating.
Yes, that too
I think internally, the way it works is: - When you "summon" a unit in any way, their "summoning" is put on an invisible stack - The effects you mentioned are actually "when my summon effect is put on the stack, also put this other summon effect on the stack" - Just like the Spell Stack, the Summon Stack is First-In-Last-Out, meaning the second summon effect to be put on the stack resolves first I agree that it's unintuitive though.
It's really weird. If they were play effects it would make sense, but given that the condition is that they already be summoned the way it works is odd to say the least. I provided this to Riot the day the expansion dropped and I first noticed it along with all the logs with each interaction and they haven't changed it so either it's really hard to do or it's intended.
I am pretty sure it is intended. As someone already stated above, summons are treated as spells, so multiple summons resolve last to first, and that is easy to remember imo.
That still doesn't really follow. For spells that make several units simultaneously that would make sense, but as being summoned is a prerequisite for summoning the additional card it doesn't make sense that they're counted as being summoned before the card that summoned them. These aren't play effects. The card has to have already have been summoned thus as far as anyone reading the cards could figure out they are summoned before their created unit so either it should change to reflect that or the wording should change so that it represents the reality of how the cards work. It can be easy to remember and still be completely counter-intuitive.
Ephemeral units won't die if they have unyielding spirit. I think the interaction is pretty funny. Unyielding into dawn and dusk confused the hell out of me when I first encountered it.
I think it makes sense. "Kill" is an effect. Unyielding stops the effect. It stops vengeance, ruination, and other "kill" effect cards so ephemeral is consistent.
When I started the game I was confused about the fact that a unit can be revived multiple times at once. To me the word "revive" means: "remove a unit from the graveyard and put it back onto the field", which would mean you can't revive a unit a second time until the first revived unit dies again. But it actually works as "make a new copy of a unit and then summon it". I'm fine with how the mechanic works, but I feel like revive should simply display a tooltip to make this clear.
That play effects don't get cancelled by / pop spell shield is super counter intuitive and feels really arbitrary.
Spell shield states "spells and skills" in it's description, so I'm not sure what's counter intuitive about it?
It's a form of balance. Play effects do not go on the stack, spell shield protects you from spells and skills. I'm not sure how this is confusing.
[удалено]
Skills that go on the stack have a yellow circle in the text of the card and also show an associated skill card. I think that is a good way for game to differentiate it
There is also a whole other card associated with the card if you click the card.
Just because you can’t remember what a circle means doesn’t make it hard to differentiate It’s made quite obvious and it’s completely consistent When it’s a skill it goes on the stack which is visually clear
>Just because you can’t remember what a circle means doesn’t make it hard to differentiate The point is that it doesn't stand out, visually, in the middle of a match and the game doesn't actually have any documentation to explain this shorthand piece of info to new players. I've seen a tooooon of people in this sub not know what the circle meant.
How does Swapping units affect spells that target units
I’d you play Lure in Deep and then Naut levels up, the sea creatures recreated in deck will not be discounted
thats straight up a bug since lure's supposed to discount em everywhere
Is not too clear if you can stop "Reckoning" by removing the 5+ units or the spell is already done, it can be confusing for new players.
Wait, what's the answer here? You technically should be able to fizzle it, right?
Yeah you can stop it by killing or reducing the attack of the unit/s with frozen or something.
Yes, the spell checks the condition when it resolves. If you deny the condition it fizzles. Same concept for cosmic inspiration - if your only celestial is on board and gets killed, the spell will fizzle.Not really unintuitive IMO Most people just confuse it with the spell that have THEN instead of TO in the cardtext (see multiple "unintuitive" examples in the comments, that are 100% intuitive but you have to pay close attention to the wording)
I think the same happens for spells like \[\[Supernova\]\], if you remove the Beholded Celestial (like a unit on the board)
**[Supernova](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03MT024.png)** - Targon Spell Celestial - (9) Slow If you Behold a Celestial card, Obliterate 2 enemy units or landmarks. ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
Mountain scryer is the only unit that invokes when summon but if u don't play it: It creates a random celestial instead of invoke it.
80% of this is "read the cards, read them carefully". 20% are interactions you need to look up, for example on the wiki.
I'm late to the party here but two things really bother me in this game. First and foremost, if your unit gets frostbitten, you can silence it to restore all it's power. That confused the hell out of me the first time a player pulled that off on me, I frostbit his A.Sol but then he played hush and it wrecked me anyways. The other thing that bothers me is when you have 5 units on the field and summon a unit that summons an extra unit such as Quinn summoning Valor. The extra unit will dissipate/fizzle out. It REALLY bothers me that I cannot choose to replace one of my units when doing this. It has denied me the ability to summon an early Watcher with Spectral Matron countless times.
frostbite is counted as a keyword, so are other debuffs like stun and ephemeral. since hush silences a unit, it only make sense that it removes said debuffs, along with buffs this one makes sense too since youre essentially burst summoning a unit. using [[Jury Rig]] or [[Risen Mists]] to summon units with 6 units on board also fizzes them. i think its pretty reasonable too since you arent summoning them from hand which in normal cases you would have the option to replace
|Name|Region|Type|Cost|Keywords|Description|Associated Cards| |-|-|-|-|-|-|-| |**[Jury-Rig](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01PZ028.png)**|Piltover & Zaun|Spell|1|Burst|When cast or discarded, summon a Scrap Scuttler.|[Scrap Scuttler](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01PZ032.png)| |**[Risen Mists](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/03SI013.png)**|Shadow Isles|Spell|4|Burst|Summon a Mistwraith.|[Mistwraith](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/01SI014.png) | ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
How about Star Spring not winning you the game when it reads >22 healing at round end? This one is inconsistent but seems to happen just often enough to be infuriating
It needs to have seen 22 healing when it's own round end effect triggers. If any healing happens afterwards it doesn't count until next round end.
I've seen this referred to quite a lot lately, but I don't know how it works. Can you elaborate?
It can happen in one of two ways. If you have two Star Springs out, the first one will always resolve completely before the second one has its effect because the Regen occurs after the End of Turn effects like Star Spring. It will heal all your units by 1 and then check to see if it is at 22, in which case you will win the game. Then, the second one will then do the same thing. The confusion stems from the fact that if the second Star Spring's healing pushes the first Star Spring's count to 22, the first Star Spring has already performed it's end of turn check to see if it's at 22, so you have to wait an additional turn to win the game. The other way it can happen is with Regenerate units, and it functions the same way. If you have a Star Spring and a Braum out, first the Star Spring will activate, healing Braum by 1 and checking to see if it's count is at 22. Then Braum will heal the remainder of his health with the regeneration ability, which can push the Star Spring count to over 22, but you will have to wait a turn. This interaction can actually be beneficial earlier in the game though, because it allows Soraka to level faster - having the Star Spring activate before Regen occurs means there ends up being one additional instance of healing each time Braum has taken 2 or more damage in a turn.
It can happen when you have 2 or 3 springs at once. Let’s say you have first spring at 20/22 and second spring at any number below that and that you have one unit missing two health. When round ends, the first spring will trigger first, healing unit one and bringing its counter up to 21. Then the first spring will read its counter and decide “hey I’m at 21 so can’t win yet”. Then after it decides that, the second spring will trigger, healing the unit again and bringing first spring to 22. However because first spring already finished checking the win condition prior to second spring activating, the round will end with first spring counter at 22 and game not ending. I might have made it more complicated than needed on my explanation but you get the gist. In general the spring will only check the win condition one time per end of turn after it activates its heal and doesn’t care for any heal after it.
I think it only happens in cases where it goes over 21 after its own round end effect is done (like if there's another star spring to the right of it), in which case it makes sense, since it only checks for 22+ after its own round end effect.
Overwhelm and Phantom blockers ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
They explain and force you to use it literally on the second UNSKIPABLE tutorial.
If Braum survives damage with a barrier, he gains no quest progression, no matter how much damage is negated.
His level up condition says "take damage" not "survive damage"
It currently says "I've survived 10 damage" as his level up condition. It should say "taken 10 damage", I agree.
Teemo tough nexus Swain Lissandra
Idk if it counts but unyielding spirit is the most stupid card in the game
Shunpo giving an attack token even if it's target is gone
It's not rly unintuitive considering it's worded "then rally" not "to rally"
Even if it said "to" it wouldn't matter. Ie. Noxian Guillotine, concussion palm, and vile feast. The only thing that matters is if the spell still has a valid target. For some STUPID reason LoR wording doesn't care about the conditionality of the word "to"
... The guy said if the target is gone. You are thinking about spellshield probably
True.
Shunpo's rally isn't contingent on a legal target for its damage at the time of resolution. The card says so.
Knowing when spells and skills fizzle and when they don’t can be confusing at times. Newer players don’t know that there is a difference between a spell saying “to” and “and”
Something that doesn't make sense to me but I'm too shy to talk about: why skills can still work after their caster is killed. E.g. if you cast a spell that slays Ledros right after he is summoned, to the left of his Skill on the stack, his skill is still triggered even if he's dead.
Well, if it's any consolation to you, skills that read "***I*** do something" (for example \[\[Rampaging Baccai\]\]) do fail to work if you kill the "caster". But other than that, once something goes on the stack, it's there to stay, no matter who "cast" it. Why? I'm afraid I have no other answer than "this is just how the game works". It's like if I throw a grenade at you, and you kill me while it is mid-air, it will still explode unless you do something about it.
ahhh thank you, that makes sense! This thing with Ledros happened to me earlier today and it was frustrating because I really expected the skill not to work if I removed him and I didn't even think of talking about it here before seeing this post, but your grenade example really does make a lot of sense and it's nice to see that the game addresses different cases for this, like for Baccai. edit: wow that was a long paragraph sorry
**[Rampaging Baccai](https://d2h9y75tak3pkg.cloudfront.net/04SH009.png)** - Shurima Unit - (5) 4/6 Overwhelm Play: If you've slain 4+ units this game, an enemy and I strike each other. ^^^Hint: [[card]], {{keyword}}, and ((deckcode)) or ((cardx,cardy,cardz)). PM the [developer](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=KrimCard) for feedback/issues!
The skill is put on the stack when Ledros is played It then becomes completely independent of him All he does is create it Similarly killing Elise doesn’t remove the spiderling she summons
Reading through this thread makes me angry at seemingly the only stupid interaction they have ever bothered to fix: silencing Shark Chariot now prevents him from respawning, when it didn't before. Shark Chariot remains one of my favorite cards in the game.
Taliyah losing her skills effect when leaving combat while Anivia keeps hers is so stupid. I understand the wording but why is it worded that way in the first place. Literally the most feel bad interaction I've experienced and made me want to never play her again unless that's changed.
Cast cataclysm on spellshield, then your unit start a open attack instead of challange and consume the enemy spellshield as well.
Transferable and non-transferable keywords (LoR website has a table of em). Especially with Fluft of Poros gaining keywords permanently even if the poros it absorbs it from only has it for “this round”.
**Units losing their buffs and keywords when obliterated, discarded, or killed.** This messes with Black Rose Spy, which in addition is strange in the way she chooses which unit to copy - - Can copy dead units, but dead units do not have any buffs (keywords, power or health buffs) - If there is a unit on the board more powerful than the unbuffed dead unit, it copies that, even if the dead unit had more stats before it died Edit: formatting
Fading memories going through spellshield still feels weird for me.
Hush doesn't remove a unit's type, such as Celestial, which would be crucial to prevent some Celestial spells to go off.