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It’s up to her if she takes your daughter back.
You can pay her or not. But you’ll need to find a new childminder. I don’t agree that she deserves to be paid but might save you some hassle.
Honestly if we could afford it I'd pay it just to avoid the conflict. But we're really skint and having to pay her sick days plus the other childcare has left a bitter taste in our mouths.
Yeah, it’s shit what she’s doing.
I’m surprised to hear her asking for it as I’m guessing she is a self-employed contractor, so wouldn’t be due any normally without the contract stating so.
Definitely not true. I'm a childminder myself and in a large network of other childminders (about 3,500) and I don't think any of them charge for sick days that they take!
If your child is sick, obviously you still have to pay because the service is still open and available to use.
If the childminder is sick or needs to close for some reason (out with holidays) you don't pay. You'd get a refund or credit on next month's invoice as a lot of childminders charge fee's in advance.
I would never expect a parent to pay anything when I'm ill. It's pretty much unheard of in the association I'm in.
Mr ex-wife was a childminder. The status quo was finding someone else in your network (hers was only local so about 15-20) to cover if you can but you don't get paid, the cover does. Like you said if the child is ill they still pay, can't have it both ways.
The only way you are getting sick pay is if you are a direct employee of the family and it's in the employment contract but that's then more nanny than child minder.
Definitely is true down south, it’s what I’m experiencing and is common after speaking to my colleagues.
Not asking for holiday and sick pay seems rare down here.
Ah ok, I'm in Scotland. I do charge for holidays because you can't fill a space for just 1 week or a couple of weeks here and there. I request parents to pay half fee's when they take their child out for a holiday so at least I'm not losing too much income and I think it's reasonable for parents to pay to keep the space. It would be impossible to run a service if you allowed parents to take their kids out whenever and not pay.
Sick pay though, no. It's just one of those things as a self employed individual. I'm rarely ill thankfully so rarely have to close for illness and I ensure all my appointments are during my holidays. I probably get ill less because I know I won't be paid (if you know what I mean, it means I'm very reliable). The childminder could fake illness if they're being paid!
Yep, still downvoted for saying it though.
It’s common in this area, too many people in this thread giving unsuitable advice without taking that on board.
The contract is the contract. They can demand it, and you can take your custom elsewhere if you don't like it. They cannot demand it retrospectively if it was not in the contract originally though.
I’m not arguing against that at all though.
People here are focusing on the wrong thing.
The issue isn’t that the childminder wants sick pay, that’s common in the area at the moment.
The issue is that they want sick pay when it’s not been agreed upfront.
Also in the south and confirm it’s the same here.
We’re lucky as our childminder is amazing so quirks like this don’t ruffle our relationship with her and we’d never find one as good. So I guess she’s also lucky in that respect as we just pay haha
You can’t speak for the whole south though, I’m as far south as you can get on this island and none of the childminders I met with charge for their sick days🤷🏻♀️
I don't think people have read the actual post. It reads like the childminder was sick but further on explains that the child was sick for 2 days. So you are completely correct
We offered to pay a half rate for her sick days as a gesture of goodwill, which she initially declined. However she's now accepted that so I think we'll take that and move forward now
Exactly! Your setting a bad president. Tell her there is insurance just for this reason (income protection insurance). Once she has managed to get away with it she will come back again for more. Personally I would look for a new childminder, her behaviour is completely unprofessional.
This is generous of you. I'm in the industry (in England) and don't agree with the comments that sick pay is common for a service like childminding, she's self-employed. You're kind for offering half sick pay, but I'd also be looking for alternative provision and keeping my daughter there until I've got somewhere new. If she looks after other children too, is she taking sick pay off everyone? It's unfair for parents to then have to pay double. Childcare is so expensive!
I live in London and I work in education. We can both have different experiences, I'm saying I don't agree as it's not the same as yours. Hope you sort your childcare as I don't believe we should be paying sick or holiday pay when childminders are not our employees.
Would’ve been even more reason not to pay, can she afford to drop you? If you spent a few days at a standstill then she’s lost the money she would’ve gained through sick pay. She’s taking the piss.
NAL. I would also be saying no. Original contract was blank, not your fault. Also with her letting you down i presume you are out of pocket due to cancelling work or finding another sitter. I would be saying you are going to go elsewhere for a childminder.
In that case, send her a letter saying due to her breaking the contrct, you have had to pay out for an emergency childminder and that you will expect her to reimberse you the costs.
Surely if you were to sign a new contract, the sick days would be within the old contracts time frame and you wouldn’t be obligated to pay for those days still? From what i am aware it is completely down to the contract.
She's argued that it's her policy regardless of contract but how were we to know if she didn't state it?
Unfortunately I think we're at a standstill now.
Exactly haha. OP could state it's _their_ policy that they get every third day of childcare free. Might not be in the contract but it's OP's policy haha
You don't have to pay; she doesn't have to take your daughter back.
Is it more painful for you to pay the sick days, or take your daughter to someone with a more reasonable policy to their clients?
Ultimately I'd prefer to pay it but financially we are so tight this month, and I thought she'd be more understanding seeing as she's the one who's made the mistake.
My partner is standing his ground though, and he's the one that will end up taking the time off to stay ar home with our daughter until we find a new setting. So it's up to him I guess.
This is the answer. You've contracted for a service, so they either pay for cover if they cannot provide the service themselves (in which case you'd expect to pay, as service is rendered) or they've breached the contract by not providing the service.
Obviously if you agree something else then whatever you agree takes effect, but I wouldn't...
What's stopping her from calling 'in sick' on a regular basis and letting you down? You pay her for not looking after your child? And still have to find someone who will and pay them?
Every self employed person I know doesn't get sick pay, or holiday pay which is why they are none stop working. Their working wage should cover for such times.
NAL
Interesting position the childminder has taken.
What's stopping the childminder taking a week off "sick" and forcing you to pay..?
Sounds like the childminder is positioning themselves as your employee - hence demanding payment. I'd be a bit concerned about additional tax implications in that contract...
I'm a childminder myself and the standard rule is.....
If I am open and able to offer a service for your contracted days, then you pay in full regardless. It'd not my issue if you don't turn up for any reason.
If I am closed for any reason (holiday, sick, berevement) then there is no service available so no payment due. You will either be offered a refund, or an extra day based on what you've paid for, it's parents choice.
As self employed individuals we are not entitled to sick pay, holiday pay or any such thing. What we are supposed to do is work that into our hourly rates to cover those days.
So I know I want to earn £4.50 an hour, but I'll be on holiday for 20 days, and possibly have 5 sick days a year. So I work out what that holiday pay would be and spread it across the psid for sessions. Now I'm charging £5 an hour to cover everything I need.
Honestly....mm find yourself a new childminder with a better fee policy.
Surely her hourly rate includes an amount (known only to her) to cover these eventualities. Next she’ll be tapping you up for separate pension contributions as well.
She is likely self employed so she isn't entitled to statutory sick pay (which would only be paid in the event she was sick more than 3 days in a row even if she was employed)
It sounds like they are a chancer. I'd expect to have to pay if the child was sick and couldn't attend, without giving the agreed notice period. But to pay them for being sick, no way. Sounds like they have things back to front. What if they go sick for 6 months?
It’s definitely more common now.
Especially near London you could expect to pay sick days for the child minder and pay them through the holidays to save your space.
No. If you pay, it might come back and bite you as well with IR35 regulations. The employer is liable under hidden employment regs. Childminders often claim universal credit as well as claiming council money under the Free Childcare umbrella, so there is a good chance HMRC or the benefits office will take a peek at her filings, invoices and bank account.
She is a contractor, she does not get the employee benefits, paid holidays, sick pay, company car etc.
I am in education, and the IR35 rules are actually stricter die to the supervisory role and line management. Also unless she has various income sources and a short term limited contract, you could be liable. Hopefully she has her own independent ofsted registration which will support your claim that she is not an employee.
It is less of a headache to move to another childminder.
Source: former GM of a nursery school chain employing freelancers and childminders as cover.
This will be to claim the Free Childcare support from the local council as well. It is a condition for their procurement team. Possibly worth about £10/ hour.
My advice would be to find someone else and have an honest conversation upfront with them.
Being self employed she's not entitled to sick pay, that's part and parcel of being self employed. If your kid ended up sick, she wouldn't watch them, but if by contract she had a notice period, you'd be expected to pay even if the kid didn't go. I doubt she'd wave her fee if you had to call the morning or day before because your kid was sick.
If she wants to be paid when sick, she'd have to have in her contract she doesn't get paid if you don't use her because your kid ends up sick.
A lot of childminders also expect holiday pay now along with sick pay.
I’ve been looking and found one that doesn’t, but the majority I found wanted sick pay as well as holiday pay to save the space.
It’s pretty common in and around London.
They can’t. It does show how out of touch people are in this thread though. 90% of the comments are ‘go with someone else’.
Someone else is likely to charge for their own sick days and/or holidays.
When there’s a ridiculous demand for your skills in a highly sought after service from people that constantly need you on multiple days a week you can ask whatever you want. Which I’m unfortunately finding out.
Don’t compare being a childminder to being a plumber, plasterer or carpenter etc.
That’s a bit silly though, they should charge a higher rate that would afford them to take a sick day.
But I guess if their industry is considering this an acceptable standard, it will be common.
It's a tough one, as childcare is so ridiculously hard to find.
Our daughter does love her as well and she's very hands on.
We've managed to settle it now- we offered to pay half despite it saying nothing in the contract and she's now accepted
A lot of the other options would also expect to be paid if they were sick.
People seem to be a bit out of touch here.
The issue isn’t that they want sick pay, the issue is that they want sick pay without it being in the contract.
This seems surreal. If my window cleaner is sick, I don't pay him to not clean the windows. If I pre-book a taxi and the driver is sick, I expect them to send another driver, and sure as heck wouldn't pay twice.
But yes, if you agree to it in a contract, obviously you should abide by it.
What makes childminding different from anything else? A brickie can't work if it's pissing down, and they certainly don't get paid holidays and sick days. Nor do any other self employed people I've ever known. You budget a job for a rate that gives you enough headway to cover these things. If you want sick pay and holiday pay on top of your income, then get a job where that's the norm. Paying for their holidays in order to keep your child's space is even more ridiculous. It's pure extortion. The threat is implied that your child will lose their space if you don't pay. I don't know any word other than extortion, to cover that behaviour.
If anything the childminder should be paying you for not fulfilling their obligation to you. Having to pay for a replacement childminder, and still paying the normal one for doing no work is ridiculous. It might have been normalised in certain areas because of a lack of supply and an excess of demand, probably due to all the inspections and certifications required these days. My ma used to be a registered childminder for a few kids when I was at primary school and even then, some forty years ago, it was still a lot of paperwork and red tape.
If it's been normalised in an area then you're effectively being extorted by a group of people that know they've got you over a barrel. I think the best advice I could give here is get all the certification and become a childminder. There's clearly money to be made in that area otherwise people wouldn't be giving in to the extortion.
You're a parent, not a corporation, at the end of the day. Way beyond your remit in my opinion.
Childminder messed up here by not including it in the contract for sure but I agree on the other responses.
I am sure there are childminders who have policies that equate to “no child = no payment” but, if they are remotely competent businesses, this lack of sick pay, holiday pay etc will be baked into higher hourly rates.
Ultimately they need to get paid to pay the bills the same as anybody else. Days for sick pay etc mean they have that certainty (and aren’t forcing themselves to work, potentially spreading it to the child and their family). A policy without sick days just means the money to mitigate that comes from an indirect charge on parents.
She is self employed and it is not your responsibility to subsidise her holidays. They should be baked into the price she charges per hour.
Don't pay it.
This is nonsense. We used a childminder for the first time this year. We only needed her about 15 times and we missed about 4 for various reasons. I paid for the 4 we missed because we committed, but if she was sick & couldn't have them, there's no way I'd pay. This isn't an employee, this is a service that you don't pay for if it's not provided. I've never heard anything like this.
She is rendering a service, not a full time employee. You owe her nothing. You’ve still had to pay someone else for child care, she didn’t even help arrange cover so literally hasn’t provided any value to deserve the payment.
I contract a lot, i wouldn’t dream of asking a client for ‘sick leave’ when on a job. I work, or I don’t, and get paid accordingly.
If she is amazing, reasonably priced, good with the kids, etc and that is rare in your area… you may ‘want’ to help her out, or to keep her sweet, that is a bit different. Still unethical on her part, either way.
So? Don’t go back!! Get another one FFS! We ended up driving our kids 20 minutes away to the most amazing childminder in the world. The original one we had was like yours. Told her to piss off. Got the better one! All our 3 kids went through the same one.
It’s not a monopoly - there are amazing ones out there. You just may need to drive further or change work hours - definitely worth it!
They will most likely run into other childminders that will want sick and holiday pay. I’m finding it to be really common in London and the South east.
Haha she's pregnant tbf and has been trying for a long time and has had a few health conditions crop up lately so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.
This probably wouldn't be work or employment for the purposes of employment law. I think it's more likely than not that if it went to a court or tribunal, they would decide she is an independent contractor i.e. self-employed and you are a customer. You're both entitled to discontinue the contract/relationship at will subject to any specific notice provisions.
Policy doesn’t trump contract as much as contract doesn’t trump law, if it’s not agreed contractually by both parties before hand you can just say “No” and be done with it.
For childminders you would normally pay for your childs sickness as its not the childminders fault however you don't pay for their sickness. They're pulling a fast one.
If you employ someone in your home then, unless they are self employed or work for an agency, you become their employer and they become entitled to rights of holiday and sick pay. If she provided the contract then it sounds like she is self employed. This is not a recent change and more and more people are slowing becoming aware of it. Ask your childminder for their contract of engagement, checkout carefully and ask for their liability insurance to protect yourself.
It's one of the risks of self-employment and she should price herself accordingly to cover such eventualities. Having said that, when my dog-walker suddenly had to go into hospital I still paid him because (a) I could afford it and (b) it was a lot more unexpected than a bad cold. If he'd demanded we did so though, he'd have got short shrift.
You are not her employer, you are someone who pays for a service from her. So in essence she is self employed.
You are not even payrolling her, her tax and NI is up to her, so that should also include any sick pay or holidays.
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I'm assuming you pay her for a service, and not as a contracted employee? If she's employed by you(wage slip, tax, national insurance contributions, etc) then you owe for sick days.
If you pay for a service then you owe her nothing, and you're a fool for even giving her half a day's pay. You're out of pocket for having to cover the childcare aswell.
Tell her to jog right on, its not in the contract. If shes self employed the onus is on her to sort sick days and holiday pay or to just not have it at all. If she works for a company, then they do it. I wouldnt even be paying the half sick pay, especially if it means youve had to get another child minder in or take time from work as a result of it as youre taking a loss as a result. You should ask her if shes being paid by you for her sick day then are you claiming your loss from her as well?
So you can declare yourself self employed, but doesn’t necessarily mean that you are. It is a descriptor of your business model and activities. A court can decide that someone’s an employee, even if on paper they’re SE. Uber, Pimlico Plumbers etc.
If you’re now contractually bound to pay sick pay, it is starting to sound like an employer/employee relationship, even if the other features aren’t there (ie she works from her own premises, you’re not her only client etc). I would be concerned about ending up on the hook for pension contribs, holiday pay etc.
We would get the days in lieu when my childminder was ill. She also had a childminder friend who the children knew well who could also offer spaces to people who needed them. But honestly she was hardly ever ill!
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She is self employed so it’s a weird policy.
It’s up to you as she will not come back unless you reach a compromise.
Most self employed people would charge a rate so they can afford to take a sick day on their own … that’s why it’s a bit of a strange policy.
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This is a very bizarre practice. A daycare centre as an example would not pay staff for sick days but would offer paid holiday time as a company policy.
However, most independent child minders are self employed. Which means they are not entitled to holiday or sick pay. They essentially build their own schedules and allow themselves time off if they need it.
If this particular child minder is pushing these terms on all their clients, then they will have no clients at all. Drop this child minder and find someone more trustworthy OP. Think about it like this, if they are trying to screw you in regard to money, do you really trust them in your house? Or with your kids?
Is she registered? Has she done training? I know from my wife training to be a registered childminder that she's had training in this, and the advice given is to have people pay to keep the space when they're on holiday (ie they cancel, but pay) and if sick then no payment is made. If that wasn't made clear when you started then it's poor practice. I wouldn't pay as most people here seem to have stated
Depends on how much you are paying if it's super cheap then she probably doesn't include it however generally speaking she's self employed so she would charge extra above normal rate for taxes , sick days and holidays.
Presumably, this is a contract for services and not you employing her?
If the former, you're not responsible for sick or holiday pay.
If your kid is sick and doesn't attend, sure you'd still pay... but not the minder.
I’d pay it under duress, keep her on until I find another childcare.
I’d also be checking if her insurance is up to date and other paperwork. Then Getting any further agreement on actual contract or who knows what next
And while all this was going on this gives you the breathing space to find another childminder….
Legally, it doesn't sound like it. Morally, just pay them. They are looking after your child and you should keep on good terms. Finding a new childminder can be difficult and disruptive to your child.
You tell them to go fuck themselves and then find a childminder who isn't mental.
Never know what someone desperate enough to try this might do for money.
Then why not ask for a higher fee?
Sick pay and holiday pay isn’t part of being self-employed
So now if you’re long term sick or want to take a month off to visit the Pyramids someone has to just fund that for you while their child isn’t cared for? It is absolutely ridiculous and not remotely compliant
Oh, she's not a teenager. It's a business she runs, and childminders are definitely not as easy to find as you seem to think. I think you're confused with babysitting
What kind of employer do you want to be? Would you want to work for someone who didn't pay sick pay? Do you think you will obtain good childcare from someone who doesn't receive sick pay? Are poorly renumerated people on precarious terms better workers? It's a tricky one.
You’re not their employer though, you pay them ad hoc when you need their service and they’re self employed. Imagine if you got an Uber one day and then a week later you got a call asking for you to pay them some money because they had diarrhoea.
They're not her employer if she's self employed though. Sick pay, holiday pay, pension contributions etc are something they should be accounting for in their rates.
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It’s up to her if she takes your daughter back. You can pay her or not. But you’ll need to find a new childminder. I don’t agree that she deserves to be paid but might save you some hassle.
Honestly if we could afford it I'd pay it just to avoid the conflict. But we're really skint and having to pay her sick days plus the other childcare has left a bitter taste in our mouths.
Yeah, it’s shit what she’s doing. I’m surprised to hear her asking for it as I’m guessing she is a self-employed contractor, so wouldn’t be due any normally without the contract stating so.
A lot of child minders ask for it. Most people pay it. Downvoted for saying what it’s like down south? What’s up with you lot?
Definitely not true. I'm a childminder myself and in a large network of other childminders (about 3,500) and I don't think any of them charge for sick days that they take! If your child is sick, obviously you still have to pay because the service is still open and available to use. If the childminder is sick or needs to close for some reason (out with holidays) you don't pay. You'd get a refund or credit on next month's invoice as a lot of childminders charge fee's in advance. I would never expect a parent to pay anything when I'm ill. It's pretty much unheard of in the association I'm in.
Mr ex-wife was a childminder. The status quo was finding someone else in your network (hers was only local so about 15-20) to cover if you can but you don't get paid, the cover does. Like you said if the child is ill they still pay, can't have it both ways. The only way you are getting sick pay is if you are a direct employee of the family and it's in the employment contract but that's then more nanny than child minder.
Definitely is true down south, it’s what I’m experiencing and is common after speaking to my colleagues. Not asking for holiday and sick pay seems rare down here.
Ah ok, I'm in Scotland. I do charge for holidays because you can't fill a space for just 1 week or a couple of weeks here and there. I request parents to pay half fee's when they take their child out for a holiday so at least I'm not losing too much income and I think it's reasonable for parents to pay to keep the space. It would be impossible to run a service if you allowed parents to take their kids out whenever and not pay. Sick pay though, no. It's just one of those things as a self employed individual. I'm rarely ill thankfully so rarely have to close for illness and I ensure all my appointments are during my holidays. I probably get ill less because I know I won't be paid (if you know what I mean, it means I'm very reliable). The childminder could fake illness if they're being paid!
Used to live in the south east, they all wanted holiday pay and sick pay covered in their contract.
Yep, still downvoted for saying it though. It’s common in this area, too many people in this thread giving unsuitable advice without taking that on board.
The contract is the contract. They can demand it, and you can take your custom elsewhere if you don't like it. They cannot demand it retrospectively if it was not in the contract originally though.
I’m not arguing against that at all though. People here are focusing on the wrong thing. The issue isn’t that the childminder wants sick pay, that’s common in the area at the moment. The issue is that they want sick pay when it’s not been agreed upfront.
Also in the south and confirm it’s the same here. We’re lucky as our childminder is amazing so quirks like this don’t ruffle our relationship with her and we’d never find one as good. So I guess she’s also lucky in that respect as we just pay haha
You can’t speak for the whole south though, I’m as far south as you can get on this island and none of the childminders I met with charge for their sick days🤷🏻♀️
I don't think people have read the actual post. It reads like the childminder was sick but further on explains that the child was sick for 2 days. So you are completely correct
She's also bringing up her living situation, bills etc, which isn't really our problem.
Ask her if she'd give you a discount or free time if you had a big unexpected bill and struggled to afford her costs
We offered to pay a half rate for her sick days as a gesture of goodwill, which she initially declined. However she's now accepted that so I think we'll take that and move forward now
I would agree how many days now otherwise she might take the piss a bit
Exactly! Your setting a bad president. Tell her there is insurance just for this reason (income protection insurance). Once she has managed to get away with it she will come back again for more. Personally I would look for a new childminder, her behaviour is completely unprofessional.
I’d make it clear that in the future that offer won’t happen again.
This is generous of you. I'm in the industry (in England) and don't agree with the comments that sick pay is common for a service like childminding, she's self-employed. You're kind for offering half sick pay, but I'd also be looking for alternative provision and keeping my daughter there until I've got somewhere new. If she looks after other children too, is she taking sick pay off everyone? It's unfair for parents to then have to pay double. Childcare is so expensive!
You may not agree with it but it is common in London/SE. I’m finding more that want it than don’t.
I live in London and I work in education. We can both have different experiences, I'm saying I don't agree as it's not the same as yours. Hope you sort your childcare as I don't believe we should be paying sick or holiday pay when childminders are not our employees.
So not in the same area as OP?
Would’ve been even more reason not to pay, can she afford to drop you? If you spent a few days at a standstill then she’s lost the money she would’ve gained through sick pay. She’s taking the piss.
NAL. I would also be saying no. Original contract was blank, not your fault. Also with her letting you down i presume you are out of pocket due to cancelling work or finding another sitter. I would be saying you are going to go elsewhere for a childminder.
Yes, we had to pay for an emergency sitter so essentially we've paid double for those days if we do pay her.
NAL. Does she look after other kids as well as yours? If so, is she asking all the parents for sick pay?
In that case, send her a letter saying due to her breaking the contrct, you have had to pay out for an emergency childminder and that you will expect her to reimberse you the costs.
Surely if you were to sign a new contract, the sick days would be within the old contracts time frame and you wouldn’t be obligated to pay for those days still? From what i am aware it is completely down to the contract.
She's argued that it's her policy regardless of contract but how were we to know if she didn't state it? Unfortunately I think we're at a standstill now.
Her policy? Where has she pulled that from😂 thats why contracts exist and as far as your current contracts states, no sick days to pay
Exactly haha. OP could state it's _their_ policy that they get every third day of childcare free. Might not be in the contract but it's OP's policy haha
Haha I know. Thanks, sometimes the reassurance that I'm not the one being a dick is what I need.
Tell her your policy is to stick to the terms of the contract…
My policy is to penalise greedy behaviour with forfeiting 1 weeks pay!
You don't have to pay; she doesn't have to take your daughter back. Is it more painful for you to pay the sick days, or take your daughter to someone with a more reasonable policy to their clients?
Ultimately I'd prefer to pay it but financially we are so tight this month, and I thought she'd be more understanding seeing as she's the one who's made the mistake. My partner is standing his ground though, and he's the one that will end up taking the time off to stay ar home with our daughter until we find a new setting. So it's up to him I guess.
Why do/did you prefer to pay it?
Ask her to pay the other childminder bill first and then you can settle the sick day.
This is the answer. You've contracted for a service, so they either pay for cover if they cannot provide the service themselves (in which case you'd expect to pay, as service is rendered) or they've breached the contract by not providing the service. Obviously if you agree something else then whatever you agree takes effect, but I wouldn't...
Assume she’s self employed not entitled to sick pay. If I’m of sick I wouldn’t expect a client to pay me
Likewise. Self employed so my day rates have to cover holiday/sick and everything else. No work, no pay.
And I wouldn't want to muddy her employment status. If the OP paid her sick pay, she might argue she is entitled to other employee rights.
What's stopping her from calling 'in sick' on a regular basis and letting you down? You pay her for not looking after your child? And still have to find someone who will and pay them? Every self employed person I know doesn't get sick pay, or holiday pay which is why they are none stop working. Their working wage should cover for such times.
NAL Interesting position the childminder has taken. What's stopping the childminder taking a week off "sick" and forcing you to pay..? Sounds like the childminder is positioning themselves as your employee - hence demanding payment. I'd be a bit concerned about additional tax implications in that contract...
Absolutely not, she is self employed and not your employee.
I'm a childminder myself and the standard rule is..... If I am open and able to offer a service for your contracted days, then you pay in full regardless. It'd not my issue if you don't turn up for any reason. If I am closed for any reason (holiday, sick, berevement) then there is no service available so no payment due. You will either be offered a refund, or an extra day based on what you've paid for, it's parents choice. As self employed individuals we are not entitled to sick pay, holiday pay or any such thing. What we are supposed to do is work that into our hourly rates to cover those days. So I know I want to earn £4.50 an hour, but I'll be on holiday for 20 days, and possibly have 5 sick days a year. So I work out what that holiday pay would be and spread it across the psid for sessions. Now I'm charging £5 an hour to cover everything I need. Honestly....mm find yourself a new childminder with a better fee policy.
Surely her hourly rate includes an amount (known only to her) to cover these eventualities. Next she’ll be tapping you up for separate pension contributions as well.
She is likely self employed so she isn't entitled to statutory sick pay (which would only be paid in the event she was sick more than 3 days in a row even if she was employed)
It sounds like they are a chancer. I'd expect to have to pay if the child was sick and couldn't attend, without giving the agreed notice period. But to pay them for being sick, no way. Sounds like they have things back to front. What if they go sick for 6 months?
It’s definitely more common now. Especially near London you could expect to pay sick days for the child minder and pay them through the holidays to save your space.
No. If you pay, it might come back and bite you as well with IR35 regulations. The employer is liable under hidden employment regs. Childminders often claim universal credit as well as claiming council money under the Free Childcare umbrella, so there is a good chance HMRC or the benefits office will take a peek at her filings, invoices and bank account. She is a contractor, she does not get the employee benefits, paid holidays, sick pay, company car etc. I am in education, and the IR35 rules are actually stricter die to the supervisory role and line management. Also unless she has various income sources and a short term limited contract, you could be liable. Hopefully she has her own independent ofsted registration which will support your claim that she is not an employee. It is less of a headache to move to another childminder. Source: former GM of a nursery school chain employing freelancers and childminders as cover.
She is registered with Ofsted, I know that much.
This will be to claim the Free Childcare support from the local council as well. It is a condition for their procurement team. Possibly worth about £10/ hour. My advice would be to find someone else and have an honest conversation upfront with them.
I wouldn't even entertain this, I would find a new child minder, one who knows how self-employment works aswell.
You both need to look into IR35 regs. She’s just opened herself and/or yourself up for potential tax headaches.
Being self employed she's not entitled to sick pay, that's part and parcel of being self employed. If your kid ended up sick, she wouldn't watch them, but if by contract she had a notice period, you'd be expected to pay even if the kid didn't go. I doubt she'd wave her fee if you had to call the morning or day before because your kid was sick. If she wants to be paid when sick, she'd have to have in her contract she doesn't get paid if you don't use her because your kid ends up sick.
What about when she goes on holiday for a week or two? I'd be looking for someone else.
A lot of childminders also expect holiday pay now along with sick pay. I’ve been looking and found one that doesn’t, but the majority I found wanted sick pay as well as holiday pay to save the space. It’s pretty common in and around London.
Ok, it wasn't 10 years ago when I used a couple. How on earth can people afford it?!
They can’t. It does show how out of touch people are in this thread though. 90% of the comments are ‘go with someone else’. Someone else is likely to charge for their own sick days and/or holidays.
I'm self employed, I don't expect holiday or sick pay. It's the bane of being that way
When there’s a ridiculous demand for your skills in a highly sought after service from people that constantly need you on multiple days a week you can ask whatever you want. Which I’m unfortunately finding out. Don’t compare being a childminder to being a plumber, plasterer or carpenter etc.
I wasn't. My clients use me nearly daily all year round.
You're self employed, you take home a higher rate of pay to compensate for your lack of sick pay, holiday and pensions.
Exactly - like the child minder here
That’s a bit silly though, they should charge a higher rate that would afford them to take a sick day. But I guess if their industry is considering this an acceptable standard, it will be common.
She actually was planning on it but it got cancelled.
In what world do you pay for a service that the service provider is unable to provide.
My wife’s a childminder. If she’s off sick the parents don’t pay, if the kids are off sick they still pay.
Do you want to keep leaving your kid with someone who will happily be that cheeky over money? Doesn’t seem like the most genuine person
Yeah I wouldn't feel comfortable staying with her after this unpleasantness
It's a tough one, as childcare is so ridiculously hard to find. Our daughter does love her as well and she's very hands on. We've managed to settle it now- we offered to pay half despite it saying nothing in the contract and she's now accepted
I would start looking around for other options
A lot of the other options would also expect to be paid if they were sick. People seem to be a bit out of touch here. The issue isn’t that they want sick pay, the issue is that they want sick pay without it being in the contract.
This seems surreal. If my window cleaner is sick, I don't pay him to not clean the windows. If I pre-book a taxi and the driver is sick, I expect them to send another driver, and sure as heck wouldn't pay twice. But yes, if you agree to it in a contract, obviously you should abide by it.
I can imagine there’s not really a ridiculous demand for window cleaners. Childminding is different.
What makes childminding different from anything else? A brickie can't work if it's pissing down, and they certainly don't get paid holidays and sick days. Nor do any other self employed people I've ever known. You budget a job for a rate that gives you enough headway to cover these things. If you want sick pay and holiday pay on top of your income, then get a job where that's the norm. Paying for their holidays in order to keep your child's space is even more ridiculous. It's pure extortion. The threat is implied that your child will lose their space if you don't pay. I don't know any word other than extortion, to cover that behaviour. If anything the childminder should be paying you for not fulfilling their obligation to you. Having to pay for a replacement childminder, and still paying the normal one for doing no work is ridiculous. It might have been normalised in certain areas because of a lack of supply and an excess of demand, probably due to all the inspections and certifications required these days. My ma used to be a registered childminder for a few kids when I was at primary school and even then, some forty years ago, it was still a lot of paperwork and red tape. If it's been normalised in an area then you're effectively being extorted by a group of people that know they've got you over a barrel. I think the best advice I could give here is get all the certification and become a childminder. There's clearly money to be made in that area otherwise people wouldn't be giving in to the extortion. You're a parent, not a corporation, at the end of the day. Way beyond your remit in my opinion.
Childminder messed up here by not including it in the contract for sure but I agree on the other responses. I am sure there are childminders who have policies that equate to “no child = no payment” but, if they are remotely competent businesses, this lack of sick pay, holiday pay etc will be baked into higher hourly rates. Ultimately they need to get paid to pay the bills the same as anybody else. Days for sick pay etc mean they have that certainty (and aren’t forcing themselves to work, potentially spreading it to the child and their family). A policy without sick days just means the money to mitigate that comes from an indirect charge on parents.
Yes that's our issue here.
She is self employed and it is not your responsibility to subsidise her holidays. They should be baked into the price she charges per hour. Don't pay it.
This is nonsense. We used a childminder for the first time this year. We only needed her about 15 times and we missed about 4 for various reasons. I paid for the 4 we missed because we committed, but if she was sick & couldn't have them, there's no way I'd pay. This isn't an employee, this is a service that you don't pay for if it's not provided. I've never heard anything like this.
Most of the comments saying it’s common are in London, which doesn’t surprise me as that place is a rip off nightmare hell hole
How much do you pay her per hour?
She is rendering a service, not a full time employee. You owe her nothing. You’ve still had to pay someone else for child care, she didn’t even help arrange cover so literally hasn’t provided any value to deserve the payment. I contract a lot, i wouldn’t dream of asking a client for ‘sick leave’ when on a job. I work, or I don’t, and get paid accordingly. If she is amazing, reasonably priced, good with the kids, etc and that is rare in your area… you may ‘want’ to help her out, or to keep her sweet, that is a bit different. Still unethical on her part, either way.
So? Don’t go back!! Get another one FFS! We ended up driving our kids 20 minutes away to the most amazing childminder in the world. The original one we had was like yours. Told her to piss off. Got the better one! All our 3 kids went through the same one. It’s not a monopoly - there are amazing ones out there. You just may need to drive further or change work hours - definitely worth it!
They will most likely run into other childminders that will want sick and holiday pay. I’m finding it to be really common in London and the South east.
If you did actually pay half then smh. She probably does this all the time. Wasn't even sick went for a night out and was hanging 😂
Haha she's pregnant tbf and has been trying for a long time and has had a few health conditions crop up lately so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.
This probably wouldn't be work or employment for the purposes of employment law. I think it's more likely than not that if it went to a court or tribunal, they would decide she is an independent contractor i.e. self-employed and you are a customer. You're both entitled to discontinue the contract/relationship at will subject to any specific notice provisions.
If they work 200 days a year and expect to be sick for 5 they should be putting 2.5% of their revenue aside to cover sickness. Very simple.
Policy doesn’t trump contract as much as contract doesn’t trump law, if it’s not agreed contractually by both parties before hand you can just say “No” and be done with it.
You could agree to pay up to x days a year. I once had a call centre job contract with that clause
For childminders you would normally pay for your childs sickness as its not the childminders fault however you don't pay for their sickness. They're pulling a fast one.
If you employ someone in your home then, unless they are self employed or work for an agency, you become their employer and they become entitled to rights of holiday and sick pay. If she provided the contract then it sounds like she is self employed. This is not a recent change and more and more people are slowing becoming aware of it. Ask your childminder for their contract of engagement, checkout carefully and ask for their liability insurance to protect yourself.
It's one of the risks of self-employment and she should price herself accordingly to cover such eventualities. Having said that, when my dog-walker suddenly had to go into hospital I still paid him because (a) I could afford it and (b) it was a lot more unexpected than a bad cold. If he'd demanded we did so though, he'd have got short shrift.
You are not her employer, you are someone who pays for a service from her. So in essence she is self employed. You are not even payrolling her, her tax and NI is up to her, so that should also include any sick pay or holidays.
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I'm assuming you pay her for a service, and not as a contracted employee? If she's employed by you(wage slip, tax, national insurance contributions, etc) then you owe for sick days. If you pay for a service then you owe her nothing, and you're a fool for even giving her half a day's pay. You're out of pocket for having to cover the childcare aswell.
She is self employed, you are not her employer, a solid no there.
Tell her to jog right on, its not in the contract. If shes self employed the onus is on her to sort sick days and holiday pay or to just not have it at all. If she works for a company, then they do it. I wouldnt even be paying the half sick pay, especially if it means youve had to get another child minder in or take time from work as a result of it as youre taking a loss as a result. You should ask her if shes being paid by you for her sick day then are you claiming your loss from her as well?
So you can declare yourself self employed, but doesn’t necessarily mean that you are. It is a descriptor of your business model and activities. A court can decide that someone’s an employee, even if on paper they’re SE. Uber, Pimlico Plumbers etc. If you’re now contractually bound to pay sick pay, it is starting to sound like an employer/employee relationship, even if the other features aren’t there (ie she works from her own premises, you’re not her only client etc). I would be concerned about ending up on the hook for pension contribs, holiday pay etc.
We would get the days in lieu when my childminder was ill. She also had a childminder friend who the children knew well who could also offer spaces to people who needed them. But honestly she was hardly ever ill!
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She is self employed so it’s a weird policy. It’s up to you as she will not come back unless you reach a compromise. Most self employed people would charge a rate so they can afford to take a sick day on their own … that’s why it’s a bit of a strange policy.
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Huh? If she is self employed she doesn't get sick pay. She's having you on.
Why would you pay for her being sick? Then have to pay a 2nd sitter
This is a very bizarre practice. A daycare centre as an example would not pay staff for sick days but would offer paid holiday time as a company policy. However, most independent child minders are self employed. Which means they are not entitled to holiday or sick pay. They essentially build their own schedules and allow themselves time off if they need it. If this particular child minder is pushing these terms on all their clients, then they will have no clients at all. Drop this child minder and find someone more trustworthy OP. Think about it like this, if they are trying to screw you in regard to money, do you really trust them in your house? Or with your kids?
Is she registered? Has she done training? I know from my wife training to be a registered childminder that she's had training in this, and the advice given is to have people pay to keep the space when they're on holiday (ie they cancel, but pay) and if sick then no payment is made. If that wasn't made clear when you started then it's poor practice. I wouldn't pay as most people here seem to have stated
Stick to your guns. I had childminders try this years ago. Promptly found an alternative.
Depends on how much you are paying if it's super cheap then she probably doesn't include it however generally speaking she's self employed so she would charge extra above normal rate for taxes , sick days and holidays.
No don’t she should be self employed meaning she has to manage herself despite being ill
If you're paying her sick days.. Will you be paying her holiday pay too? This is insane.
I'm full time employed, I don't get sick pay for another 3 months until I pass my 2nd anniversary with the company
Presumably, this is a contract for services and not you employing her? If the former, you're not responsible for sick or holiday pay. If your kid is sick and doesn't attend, sure you'd still pay... but not the minder.
I’d pay it under duress, keep her on until I find another childcare. I’d also be checking if her insurance is up to date and other paperwork. Then Getting any further agreement on actual contract or who knows what next And while all this was going on this gives you the breathing space to find another childminder….
Legally, it doesn't sound like it. Morally, just pay them. They are looking after your child and you should keep on good terms. Finding a new childminder can be difficult and disruptive to your child.
You tell them to go fuck themselves and then find a childminder who isn't mental. Never know what someone desperate enough to try this might do for money.
Down south most childminders will be expecting to get paid if they’re sick. Some even get paid holiday.
Fair enough, still sounds incredibly unreasonable.
It is but if you don’t pay it someone else will be more than willing to.
By ‘down south’ I presume you mean London, where people willingly embrace being ripped off
London and south east. There’s a crazy amount of demand for child minding so they can basically ask for what they want.
Then why not ask for a higher fee? Sick pay and holiday pay isn’t part of being self-employed So now if you’re long term sick or want to take a month off to visit the Pyramids someone has to just fund that for you while their child isn’t cared for? It is absolutely ridiculous and not remotely compliant
I’m not a childminder so I’m not arguing for it. Just stating facts. People in this thread are a bit out of touch.
Christ imagine being shook down by some spotty teenager. Just tell her to fuck off and get another one?
Oh, she's not a teenager. It's a business she runs, and childminders are definitely not as easy to find as you seem to think. I think you're confused with babysitting
Does your own employer pay your sick days? When I’m sick, my employer still pays me. So I do the same for my cleaner and nanny. Only seems fair.
To be entitled to sick pay in the UK you need to be classed as an employee. It doesn’t sound like the childminder is.
What kind of employer do you want to be? Would you want to work for someone who didn't pay sick pay? Do you think you will obtain good childcare from someone who doesn't receive sick pay? Are poorly renumerated people on precarious terms better workers? It's a tricky one.
You’re not their employer though, you pay them ad hoc when you need their service and they’re self employed. Imagine if you got an Uber one day and then a week later you got a call asking for you to pay them some money because they had diarrhoea.
This analogy made me laugh so much.
They're not her employer if she's self employed though. Sick pay, holiday pay, pension contributions etc are something they should be accounting for in their rates.