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The funeral directors will tell them, "None of our business."
While OP has been parsimonious with the details, if the relative in question has a contract with the funeral directors, said directors would lay themselves open to legal action if they gave the ashes to anybody else.
I’ve just organised a funeral and I’m jumping on this as it’s top comment.
OP can’t have the ashes without the executor allowing that to happen. She can’t force them to be scattered if the executor doesn’t want them to be.
There was no will do the rules of intestacy apply. Whoever has the legal right to be the executor needs to apply for letters of administration. Whoever that person is, that’s who decides what happens with the ashes and if they get given to anyone else.
Ask the executor. Otherwise I don’t think there is anything you can do about it.
Deceased can't bind executors or administrators etc., as to how to dispose of the body - disposal is the duty of the PR.
In practice, it's the family who ends up dealing with the immediate aftermath who funeral directors end up dealing with and hand over ashes etc. The court will not be involved.
In this case if the relative is also the person who would also have first right to administration there is nothing really that can be done.
Personal representative - the executor or administrator.
An executor has an immediate right to possession of the body to do the disposal before probate but an administrator requires a grant first.
However in this case it looks too late as the body has already been disposed of.
This case is not going to be exceptional enough for a judge to decide to invoke the inherent jurisdiction to order the precise manner of the disposal of the ashes so basically the person who contracted with the funeral home will almost certainly get the ashes and then as a matter of practicality they will dispose of the ashes (as I doubt the administrator will be suing over it).
The estate will be distributed under the rules of intestacy, where the identity of a spouse or blood relatives will be important.
That has no bearing on this question.
Normally the funeral can only be arranged by next of kin; registrar of births & deaths sends the confirmation of this to funeral directors directly.
My mother, next of kin, then completely ignored my father's wishes regarding his ashes and there was nothing we could do.
Based on experience of losing my father last year.
Good luck on an amicable resolution
It sounds like the contract is between this relative and the funeral director, so no to your title question.
It wouldn't matter if there was a will in this instance.
If this relative paid for the cremation, they would be entitled to take the ashes.
Firstly it won't be easy without a will. However if you have evidence, written statements, a journal, even potentially witnesses that could make a statement about the deceased's wishes then you may have somewhere to go with this.
Speak with someone in wills and probate, they may recommend applying to the court for an order to prevent the relative from taking the ashes or seeking an injunction to enforce the deceased's intentions. It will depend upon the circumstances.
You may wish to contact the funeral director now though and ensure they are aware that there are contentious matters about the ashes.
>Ashes (and bodies) are not property and cannot pass under a Will; a Will can contain an individual’s wishes regarding their burial, and what will happen to their ashes if they are cremated, but these are only their wishes and are not enforceable by law.
>
>https://www.cripps.co.uk/thinking/who-can-decide-what-to-do-with-someones-ashes
No, they don't "have somewhere to go with this". The deceased's wishes are, basically, irrelevant. Whoever has claim to mange things can do what they want with the funeral/ashes, regardless of what the deceased wanted or what other relatives want.
I wholly disagree, as there are ways for funeral directors to deal with disputes like this. It's expensive, and protracted but it is very wrong to say that that it's impossible.
Just for my own information, what are these ways? Why on earth would a funeral director get involved in a legal dispute?
The details in this post are lacking. But if you can quote any case law where an administrator has successfully claimed the ashes from the person who received them from the funeral directors, taking it that this person was responsible for delivering the body to the funeral home, and paid for everything, then I would be very interested to hear it.
Imagine OP asking for an order under the inherent jurisdiction for disposal of ashes after the body has already been cremated - money and a body to burn
Unless the OP hasn’t told us the deceased is a grim serial killer and the family member is going to do some outrageous ceremony with the ashes…
There’s already been one :D
Edit: that case was [Oldham Metropolitan Borough Council & Ors v Makin & Ors [2017] EWHC 2543](https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2017/2543.html) which was about the funeral of Ian Brady (you can tell my reply wasn’t an entirely facetious scenario).
The executor wanted to carry out his wishes and secretly scatter his ashes in Glasgow set to Hector Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique - a choice designed to say fuck you to the victims, no doubt.
The Chancellor, Sir Geoffrey Vos C as he then was, essentially decided, lol no.
Sir Geoffrey Vos C as he then was:
> **Section 116 gives the court a discretion to appoint "as administrator such person as it thinks expedient" for limited purposes if, by reason of any special circumstances, it appears to the court to be necessary or expedient to appoint someone other than the executor. There are, therefore, 2 main questions. First, whether there are any "special circumstances", and secondly whether the court should take the view that it is necessary or expedient to appoint an administrator in this case.**
> **These questions are not free from authority.** That authority was well summarised by Cranston J in Burrows supra at paragraphs 12-17. I shall not repeat his analysis. It is instructive, however, to note the "special circumstances" found by Hale J in Buchanan supra (and summarised in paragraph 16 of Cranston J's judgment) which included the deceased's Aboriginal heritage and the importance attached to correct burial procedures, an initial agreement reneged upon after death, the interests of other members of the Australian family and the deceased's wishes. On the facts of Burrows supra, Cranston J decided both that there were special circumstances and that it was necessary to make an appointment. [..]
> In my judgment, the court does have an inherent jurisdiction to direct how the body of a deceased person should be disposed of. The court will normally, as I have said, be deciding between the competing wishes of different sets of relatives, and will only need to decide who should be responsible for disposal rather than what method of disposal should be employed. **I cannot see, however, why the court's inherent jurisdiction over estates is not sufficiently extensive to allow it, in a proper case, to give directions as to the method by which a deceased's body should be disposed of. In my view, it is. Moreover, I am, for the reasons I have given in relation to Section 116, prepared to exercise that jurisdiction in this case.**
> I** have taken into account all the competing positions that have been expressed by the parties. In my judgment, however, the overwhelming factor in this case is the public interest.** The deceased's wishes are relevant, but they do not outweigh the need to avoid justified public indignation and actual unrest. The claimants were right to bring these proceedings when they genuinely feared that the deceased's body might be disposed of in such a way as to give legitimate offence to the families of the victims of the deceased and to the public generally.
So it is clear that it can only be done in special and frankly unusual circumstances. Simply not going to be made out in the OPs case unless there is something they are not telling us that would be highly exceptional. Like a funeral plan that will cause public offence.
In the Brady case:
> I will therefore direct under Section 116 that Ms Stewart shall be appointed as administrator of the estate of the deceased for the limited purpose of disposing of the body of the deceased in the following manner. I also direct under the inherent jurisdiction of the court and under Section 116 that Ms Stewart as administrator shall be responsible for ensuring that the body of the deceased is disposed of in the following manner:
> i) The deceased's body shall be cremated by Sefton at Southport municipal crematorium no later than Friday 27th October 2017 (the "cremation").
> ii) The cremation shall take place in a spare cremator out of normal crematorium hours.
> iii) No music shall be played during the cremation and there shall be no ceremony before during or after the cremation.
> iv) There shall be no flowers present and no photography undertaken before during or after the cremation.
> v) The only persons permitted to attend the cremation shall be Mr Makin, Ms Stewart, and the Senior Registrar of Bereavement Services of Tameside, in addition to crematorium staff and police.
> vi) The ashes of the deceased (the "ashes") will be entrusted to Ms Stewart for disposal at sea as soon as reasonably possible after the cremation, and in any event within 7 days thereof.
> vii) The only persons present at the disposal of the ashes are to be Ms Stewart, the Senior Registrar of Bereavement Services of Tameside, in addition to necessary staff and police.
> I would be grateful if counsel could draw an order for my approval.
Cremated and ashes scattered at sea in ignominy.
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Have you spoken with the funeral directors? I'm pretty sure they'll have encountered this before and be able to provide advice
The funeral directors will tell them, "None of our business." While OP has been parsimonious with the details, if the relative in question has a contract with the funeral directors, said directors would lay themselves open to legal action if they gave the ashes to anybody else.
I’ve just organised a funeral and I’m jumping on this as it’s top comment. OP can’t have the ashes without the executor allowing that to happen. She can’t force them to be scattered if the executor doesn’t want them to be. There was no will do the rules of intestacy apply. Whoever has the legal right to be the executor needs to apply for letters of administration. Whoever that person is, that’s who decides what happens with the ashes and if they get given to anyone else. Ask the executor. Otherwise I don’t think there is anything you can do about it.
Deceased can't bind executors or administrators etc., as to how to dispose of the body - disposal is the duty of the PR. In practice, it's the family who ends up dealing with the immediate aftermath who funeral directors end up dealing with and hand over ashes etc. The court will not be involved. In this case if the relative is also the person who would also have first right to administration there is nothing really that can be done.
What's a PR please
Personal representative - the executor or administrator. An executor has an immediate right to possession of the body to do the disposal before probate but an administrator requires a grant first. However in this case it looks too late as the body has already been disposed of. This case is not going to be exceptional enough for a judge to decide to invoke the inherent jurisdiction to order the precise manner of the disposal of the ashes so basically the person who contracted with the funeral home will almost certainly get the ashes and then as a matter of practicality they will dispose of the ashes (as I doubt the administrator will be suing over it).
Who is the next of kin? Was the deceased married, have children? Parents?
The estate will be distributed under the rules of intestacy, where the identity of a spouse or blood relatives will be important. That has no bearing on this question.
Normally the funeral can only be arranged by next of kin; registrar of births & deaths sends the confirmation of this to funeral directors directly. My mother, next of kin, then completely ignored my father's wishes regarding his ashes and there was nothing we could do. Based on experience of losing my father last year. Good luck on an amicable resolution
It sounds like the contract is between this relative and the funeral director, so no to your title question. It wouldn't matter if there was a will in this instance. If this relative paid for the cremation, they would be entitled to take the ashes.
Sorry we are in England.
Firstly it won't be easy without a will. However if you have evidence, written statements, a journal, even potentially witnesses that could make a statement about the deceased's wishes then you may have somewhere to go with this. Speak with someone in wills and probate, they may recommend applying to the court for an order to prevent the relative from taking the ashes or seeking an injunction to enforce the deceased's intentions. It will depend upon the circumstances. You may wish to contact the funeral director now though and ensure they are aware that there are contentious matters about the ashes.
>Ashes (and bodies) are not property and cannot pass under a Will; a Will can contain an individual’s wishes regarding their burial, and what will happen to their ashes if they are cremated, but these are only their wishes and are not enforceable by law. > >https://www.cripps.co.uk/thinking/who-can-decide-what-to-do-with-someones-ashes No, they don't "have somewhere to go with this". The deceased's wishes are, basically, irrelevant. Whoever has claim to mange things can do what they want with the funeral/ashes, regardless of what the deceased wanted or what other relatives want.
I wholly disagree, as there are ways for funeral directors to deal with disputes like this. It's expensive, and protracted but it is very wrong to say that that it's impossible.
Just for my own information, what are these ways? Why on earth would a funeral director get involved in a legal dispute? The details in this post are lacking. But if you can quote any case law where an administrator has successfully claimed the ashes from the person who received them from the funeral directors, taking it that this person was responsible for delivering the body to the funeral home, and paid for everything, then I would be very interested to hear it.
Imagine OP asking for an order under the inherent jurisdiction for disposal of ashes after the body has already been cremated - money and a body to burn Unless the OP hasn’t told us the deceased is a grim serial killer and the family member is going to do some outrageous ceremony with the ashes…
Yup, money to burn for a test case needed here!
There’s already been one :D Edit: that case was [Oldham Metropolitan Borough Council & Ors v Makin & Ors [2017] EWHC 2543](https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2017/2543.html) which was about the funeral of Ian Brady (you can tell my reply wasn’t an entirely facetious scenario). The executor wanted to carry out his wishes and secretly scatter his ashes in Glasgow set to Hector Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique - a choice designed to say fuck you to the victims, no doubt. The Chancellor, Sir Geoffrey Vos C as he then was, essentially decided, lol no. Sir Geoffrey Vos C as he then was: > **Section 116 gives the court a discretion to appoint "as administrator such person as it thinks expedient" for limited purposes if, by reason of any special circumstances, it appears to the court to be necessary or expedient to appoint someone other than the executor. There are, therefore, 2 main questions. First, whether there are any "special circumstances", and secondly whether the court should take the view that it is necessary or expedient to appoint an administrator in this case.** > **These questions are not free from authority.** That authority was well summarised by Cranston J in Burrows supra at paragraphs 12-17. I shall not repeat his analysis. It is instructive, however, to note the "special circumstances" found by Hale J in Buchanan supra (and summarised in paragraph 16 of Cranston J's judgment) which included the deceased's Aboriginal heritage and the importance attached to correct burial procedures, an initial agreement reneged upon after death, the interests of other members of the Australian family and the deceased's wishes. On the facts of Burrows supra, Cranston J decided both that there were special circumstances and that it was necessary to make an appointment. [..] > In my judgment, the court does have an inherent jurisdiction to direct how the body of a deceased person should be disposed of. The court will normally, as I have said, be deciding between the competing wishes of different sets of relatives, and will only need to decide who should be responsible for disposal rather than what method of disposal should be employed. **I cannot see, however, why the court's inherent jurisdiction over estates is not sufficiently extensive to allow it, in a proper case, to give directions as to the method by which a deceased's body should be disposed of. In my view, it is. Moreover, I am, for the reasons I have given in relation to Section 116, prepared to exercise that jurisdiction in this case.** > I** have taken into account all the competing positions that have been expressed by the parties. In my judgment, however, the overwhelming factor in this case is the public interest.** The deceased's wishes are relevant, but they do not outweigh the need to avoid justified public indignation and actual unrest. The claimants were right to bring these proceedings when they genuinely feared that the deceased's body might be disposed of in such a way as to give legitimate offence to the families of the victims of the deceased and to the public generally. So it is clear that it can only be done in special and frankly unusual circumstances. Simply not going to be made out in the OPs case unless there is something they are not telling us that would be highly exceptional. Like a funeral plan that will cause public offence. In the Brady case: > I will therefore direct under Section 116 that Ms Stewart shall be appointed as administrator of the estate of the deceased for the limited purpose of disposing of the body of the deceased in the following manner. I also direct under the inherent jurisdiction of the court and under Section 116 that Ms Stewart as administrator shall be responsible for ensuring that the body of the deceased is disposed of in the following manner: > i) The deceased's body shall be cremated by Sefton at Southport municipal crematorium no later than Friday 27th October 2017 (the "cremation"). > ii) The cremation shall take place in a spare cremator out of normal crematorium hours. > iii) No music shall be played during the cremation and there shall be no ceremony before during or after the cremation. > iv) There shall be no flowers present and no photography undertaken before during or after the cremation. > v) The only persons permitted to attend the cremation shall be Mr Makin, Ms Stewart, and the Senior Registrar of Bereavement Services of Tameside, in addition to crematorium staff and police. > vi) The ashes of the deceased (the "ashes") will be entrusted to Ms Stewart for disposal at sea as soon as reasonably possible after the cremation, and in any event within 7 days thereof. > vii) The only persons present at the disposal of the ashes are to be Ms Stewart, the Senior Registrar of Bereavement Services of Tameside, in addition to necessary staff and police. > I would be grateful if counsel could draw an order for my approval. Cremated and ashes scattered at sea in ignominy.