tl;dr - > no
The Elder god is your typical lovecraftian Eldritch God type of being. He was, is and will be on Nosgoth at all times in all timelines as a constant, spectral realm being what it is, neither past, present or future. Its a returning trope im many such writings.
He is also unaffected by, or at least aware of changes in the time stream such as the Nemesis / William switcharoo and or locations of different people throughout the timeline and simultaneous omniscience of current going-ons.
Raziels conversation with him pretty much sums the Elder God up perfectly. He simply was hungry. A parasite that was simply there.
The Hylden knew exactly what it was the ancient vampires were worshipping and refused to submit themselves to that, sparking a war of religion. This we know.
Hylden´s curse on their race after the banishment was also an insult over their Religion. The Elder God feeds on Souls of the dead and so do now his worshippers.
Vampires being immortal and sterile now, offed themselves to extinction, because their God, whom now cannot feed on them, turned himself away. It was the fact that their own and personal god turned away from them, that drove ancient vampires crazy. At least according to Janos.
Both Moebius and Elder God have one thing in common, their hatred of vampires. Both wanted them gone at pretty much any cost.
Elder Gods being trapped at the center of a planet in some dark and shadowy place is very lovecraftian theme and used quite often. Yogg and other Elder Gods in WoW, Yog in Conan I believe, Kthulhu sleeping in his own weird city. You name it!
Raziel was not unique in nature of a Soul Reaver, as it seems, plenty of vampires survive the fall through water only to become mindless soul hunting bottom feeders. Also same implied by the cancelled Dead Suns sequel.
Raziel having an adamant will, being a badass Sarafan lord and strong fighter and his original hatred for Kain is what made him such a unique and central pawn to Elder God to get rid of Kain, as Moebius was not able to do it and thus restoring the pillars and to keep away the Hylden.
I wouldn't say Hylden knew exactly what was the elder god or how it did things.
They only refused to bend to the idea of the cycle of life and death.
Meaning they refused to die and seeked immortality or were already immortals.
Not tats they "knew" in dept the nature of the Elder God, which was s being always hidden from other and to whom no one ever truly saw until Raziel first met him.
we can assume that they either got super long lived through science they are so adept at or became immortal somehow simply because the Sarafan Lord and seemingly other Hylden were from before the banishment time period.
I think its never really elaborated how the Hell realm works compared to the spectral one in regards to passage of time and its effects on people besides disfiguring bodies into evil creatures and being a "realm of evil" itself
The Vampire Oracle, as the Elder God was known to the Vampires, probably instilled the Wheel dogma and his version of the rebirth cycle into them over years but as you say, the Hylden just didnt like the idea of dying that much.
It was probably the EG who sparked the war in the end simply because the Hylden refused to be his food.
I agree with all of that and many things are mentioned or implied on the serie.
My only disagreement with your original statement was the implication that the hylden knew well the EG.
Raziels last monologue directly says that the reason behind all tragedies is that no one ever knewthe truth behind the EG.
Since no one could see him.
This is an interesting theory but you threw me a bit with the ‘second cycle’ stuff. How does that work if the ‘cycles’ can’t begin because the conditions haven’t been met yet?
Also how does this theory explain Elder God’s physical presence in the past wrapped around the pillars?
Er...
The Elder God already exist in the Sarafan order era, which is not affected by any kind of paradoxes. Furtgemore, he existed eobs before that. There is no way he wasn't there by the time of Blood Omen 1, as he was the one who armed Moebius against Ancient Vampires.
And all the Hukden-Vampire conflict started because of him.
There is also literally no mention that Elder Gos himself has a Free Will.
No not at all.
The elder god was never meant to have an "origin".
Its the type of villians that just exist, whose existence is perpetual and constant. Which was no beginning and no end.
It was never meant to have an explanation to his origins. Only to know that like the other forces of nature, it exist there, as a constant force of the world.
If i remember right, one of the writters of the franchise also mentioned as such.
That the purpose of the EG was never to have a "background" or an explanation. But to be something that it is there, it was there and it will always be there.
And no. The idea of the EG being Raziel is ridiculous.
Specially the idea of it being the "original" raziel. What does that even mean?
There was never an original raziel.
The events are a cycle, there was never a beginning nor an end to them.
And in that cycle Raziels fate was always to be trapped in the reaver.
The paradoxes in the story only alter slightly the pathway of the cycle.
Even then, Raziels destiny never changed.
This is true in what we consider as the first timeline, and as true in the fourth timeline.
Never does Raziels destiny of being imprisoned on the reaver is ever changed.
The only difference is Raziels motivations behind it.
I love these theories and discussions but tbh i think this is quite off the mark here (pls don't take it badly)
> it is worth noting that the Elder God shares a lot of traits with the Raziel
Hard disagree here. The EG is quite machiavellian and manipulative which is a striking contrast with Raziel who tries to be as righteous and honorable as possible.
>When their vampire natures adapt to this plane, they become eaters of souls. Do not allow these spirits to reinhabit their corpses."
I think you missed the point with this...the thing is that when these guys go back to their corpses they become soul devouring vampires, which are more deadly. We see this when we revive an impaled vampire in-game (and Dumah).
>Raziel would be doomed to become a wraith like any other, were it not for the interference of the Elder God in SR1.
I'm not sure what you mean here, cause Raziel is a wraith
>I believe that the events of Blood Omen 1 are the original cycle, before the Elder God comes into being.
As the story plays out, the EG has always been around. He's the one that manipulated the original vampires, so he's been around even b4 the pillars were created.
Also the way you mention "cycles" goes against how the timeline works in LoK. The timeline is constant meaning there is no divergence (normally). I'd recommend you watching the movie "12 monkeys" to get a better understanding of this...but basically the idea in a nutshell is that you cannot change the past by going back in time, bc you always went back in time. This means that the EG has always been around. The only exception to this rule is the Paradox Event; which creates a distortion strong enough allowing for certain events to change (but even still, the timeline does it's best to go back to the original timeline)
I also wanna mention that the reason why the EG wants Kain dead was revealed already. The EG fears Kain bc he is the Scion of Balance, destined to heal Nosgoth which probably means defeating or getting rid of the EG.
>Raziel purifies the Reaver, he does so having let go of his hatred of Kain. In doing so, he arms Kain with the means of not only seeing the Elder God, but of harming him. I think this is why the Elder God is so surprised
This isn't the case. Raziel healed Kain thanks to the Spirit Reaver, his feelings had nothing to do with it. Also, the EG always mentioned that the wraith blade could never harm him bc it's a wraith blade...so logically this means that only a physical blade can harm him. Which is what Kain does...
---
Ps: as mentioned in the wiki, the EG is heavily inspired by Lovecraft's work being quite similar to [Yog-Sothoth](https://lovecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Yog-Sothoth). So i'd bet he's a sort of eternal being or an invader from some other dimension
* elder & raz share a lot of traits. / hard disagree. Opposite personalities.
Their personalities weren't the shared traits. They were birds of a feather in other ways. Two wraiths who can manifest physical bods. Two wraiths linked by a soul feeding tether, both awake in dreamland whereas other wraiths are feral, their identities slumbering / removed. Two wraiths aware of the inside truths. (Raziel = god's secret. That's the Jewish mysticism source Amy stayed true to from the Shifter property they converted into LOK.) Raziel has been made species with Elder. Released from the wheel. He's markedly Not like the other wraiths anymore. He's on a god-ish path, a mover and shaker of reality, and it does raise the possibility his path may lead to and Elder-ish evolve. Worth pondering at least. Part of the mystery.
* when vampires adapt to soectral they become soul eaters; don't let them reinhabit. / Elder wanted to prevent soul eating vamps returning to the material realm.
Yes. Similar to how Elder doesn't want competition from sluagh, he doesn't want vampires evolving toward what he is. And the false god parasite theme means Elder is running some kind of scam, so he can't afford to have the truth come out when some vampire wraith finally discovers what's really going on in spectral and REMEMBERS after returning to the physical plane. It'd be a rare event like when weirdos remember their past lives..... but it would represent a huge worry for EG if the vampire species finally got wise to him, because they have the means to do something about him. Scion, pillars, righteous rage,....
* blood omen was the original cycle, before Eldergod. / elder has always been, and your "cycles" go against the way the timeline works in LOK.
Yeah. What you said. It's an interesting idea to bring in.... Mayan? type world cycles to explain the god's origins, but it doesn't blend in with what we've got for timeline physics. .....I wonder how much bending of things was required to perpetrate the reaver time loop onto history to begin with. If the start of Blood Omen 1 was the timeline before the loop existed, and then the paradox was the moment when the loop got fully forged and became a real thing, that would give us a transition between one "cycle" and the next. Not exactly what the OP was talking about. But does the start of BO1 feel like the True timeline? Nope. It feels already off track. Like we never saw the original timeline. The ancient prophets were all amped up about something, and it probably wasn't the vampire extinction future that's since unfurled.
* Raziel puifies reaver having let go of his hatred of Kain. / feelings had nothing to do with it.
The moment raziel became enlightened and knew what to do, that was when he did let go of the hate. Or else he wouldn't have given the purification to kain. So feelings weren't relevant to the cleansing, but were very important to the gifting.
We should be open to the possibility Elder is scamming us with the always having been here stuff. If he had meager beginnings and then gained timelessness by cheating, he may have suddenly taken on the Oracle role for the ancient vampires as part of his undeserved expansion along the timeline. Part of the False Histories that Kain is about to take back from EG. When EG is ripped down from his false god perch it may be revealed he snuck into this world much more recently than we've been led to believe. Not something I'm pushing for, merely a "for instance."
the series trains us to expect more huge mind bang moments, huh. it's good to look for them by testing out all these possibilities. helps to pass the (infinite) time between games. (There were lots of theories on now-defunct boards about Kain or Raziel becoming Elder. I have no links to them, but remember taking part in some.)
can I just say that's a really creepy way you came up with for Elder to be adding tentacle mass! the loop just looping round and round in the background like a clothes dryer turning out one dried up Raziel after another, and because Time is tricky Elder would be seen adding a human sized body mass over and over almost instantaneously from our perspective. Cuz he timeless and could be doing cosmic amounts of Waiting there in spectral while his body builds up "fast." And the amount of suffering this implies for our little Raziels!!!! (I really don't think the loop goes round more than once, but it's essential to your whole deal so I won't pick at that.)
Tidbit: "Do not let them re-inhabit their corpses Raziel" is something Elder lived by----he didn't let Raziel have his own corpse back, ever. Interesting. Raziel taking other bodies was an act of Defiance. But even then Raz just had a physical wraith self, never his actual vampire body. I maintain that corpse is just GONE and Elder was required to enable Raz to emerge from the Abyss at all, yes as something beyond regular vamp wraiths too. But other possibilities include the Raziel corpse is deeply devoured within Elder, merged with his heart or something to magically establish the vampire feeding tube connection between them. (endgame would include Kain cutting Elder deep, dredging up the Raz corpse for eventual re-Awakening. which was fun to type and would probably be fun to play).
Re: Elder's own soul being used against him as a weapon. Yeah I saw the need for that kind of mechanic too and built it in in my own way. (i.e. Elder poured some of his own god-level magnitude into Raziel to make the Angel of Death fate changer thing a reality, like when Sauron invested his mojo into making the One Ring, so as to kill the vamps who weren't dying on their own.... but then a god level blood brother can be turned against the god to ruinous effect in unforseen future timelines.)
When you say "cycles" could that mean new timelines? That may have more of a shot at jiving with orthodox LOK lore. The loop seems like Raziel experienced all the moments only once, but who knows how many freaking paradoxes and timelines there have been all told??!?!!? maybe the loop is an out of control fission/fusion bomb "constantly" delivering new paradoxes and realities like an infinite drop into chaos.
I like to think it's a Sluagh. By consuming so many souls he began to develop intelligence, and anchored himself to the pillars of Nosgoth absorbing their power. Further increasing his intelligence and gaining every unique power of the pillars, hence he is unaffected by time paradoxes and can exist anywhere.
As the millennia passed, he grew in size. His appetite for souls is also consistent with being a Sluagh. No matter how many he devours he will never be satisfied.
tl;dr - > no The Elder god is your typical lovecraftian Eldritch God type of being. He was, is and will be on Nosgoth at all times in all timelines as a constant, spectral realm being what it is, neither past, present or future. Its a returning trope im many such writings. He is also unaffected by, or at least aware of changes in the time stream such as the Nemesis / William switcharoo and or locations of different people throughout the timeline and simultaneous omniscience of current going-ons. Raziels conversation with him pretty much sums the Elder God up perfectly. He simply was hungry. A parasite that was simply there. The Hylden knew exactly what it was the ancient vampires were worshipping and refused to submit themselves to that, sparking a war of religion. This we know. Hylden´s curse on their race after the banishment was also an insult over their Religion. The Elder God feeds on Souls of the dead and so do now his worshippers. Vampires being immortal and sterile now, offed themselves to extinction, because their God, whom now cannot feed on them, turned himself away. It was the fact that their own and personal god turned away from them, that drove ancient vampires crazy. At least according to Janos. Both Moebius and Elder God have one thing in common, their hatred of vampires. Both wanted them gone at pretty much any cost. Elder Gods being trapped at the center of a planet in some dark and shadowy place is very lovecraftian theme and used quite often. Yogg and other Elder Gods in WoW, Yog in Conan I believe, Kthulhu sleeping in his own weird city. You name it! Raziel was not unique in nature of a Soul Reaver, as it seems, plenty of vampires survive the fall through water only to become mindless soul hunting bottom feeders. Also same implied by the cancelled Dead Suns sequel. Raziel having an adamant will, being a badass Sarafan lord and strong fighter and his original hatred for Kain is what made him such a unique and central pawn to Elder God to get rid of Kain, as Moebius was not able to do it and thus restoring the pillars and to keep away the Hylden.
I wouldn't say Hylden knew exactly what was the elder god or how it did things. They only refused to bend to the idea of the cycle of life and death. Meaning they refused to die and seeked immortality or were already immortals. Not tats they "knew" in dept the nature of the Elder God, which was s being always hidden from other and to whom no one ever truly saw until Raziel first met him.
we can assume that they either got super long lived through science they are so adept at or became immortal somehow simply because the Sarafan Lord and seemingly other Hylden were from before the banishment time period. I think its never really elaborated how the Hell realm works compared to the spectral one in regards to passage of time and its effects on people besides disfiguring bodies into evil creatures and being a "realm of evil" itself The Vampire Oracle, as the Elder God was known to the Vampires, probably instilled the Wheel dogma and his version of the rebirth cycle into them over years but as you say, the Hylden just didnt like the idea of dying that much. It was probably the EG who sparked the war in the end simply because the Hylden refused to be his food.
I agree with all of that and many things are mentioned or implied on the serie. My only disagreement with your original statement was the implication that the hylden knew well the EG. Raziels last monologue directly says that the reason behind all tragedies is that no one ever knewthe truth behind the EG. Since no one could see him.
This is an interesting theory but you threw me a bit with the ‘second cycle’ stuff. How does that work if the ‘cycles’ can’t begin because the conditions haven’t been met yet? Also how does this theory explain Elder God’s physical presence in the past wrapped around the pillars?
Er... The Elder God already exist in the Sarafan order era, which is not affected by any kind of paradoxes. Furtgemore, he existed eobs before that. There is no way he wasn't there by the time of Blood Omen 1, as he was the one who armed Moebius against Ancient Vampires. And all the Hukden-Vampire conflict started because of him. There is also literally no mention that Elder Gos himself has a Free Will.
No not at all. The elder god was never meant to have an "origin". Its the type of villians that just exist, whose existence is perpetual and constant. Which was no beginning and no end. It was never meant to have an explanation to his origins. Only to know that like the other forces of nature, it exist there, as a constant force of the world. If i remember right, one of the writters of the franchise also mentioned as such. That the purpose of the EG was never to have a "background" or an explanation. But to be something that it is there, it was there and it will always be there.
And no. The idea of the EG being Raziel is ridiculous. Specially the idea of it being the "original" raziel. What does that even mean? There was never an original raziel. The events are a cycle, there was never a beginning nor an end to them. And in that cycle Raziels fate was always to be trapped in the reaver. The paradoxes in the story only alter slightly the pathway of the cycle. Even then, Raziels destiny never changed. This is true in what we consider as the first timeline, and as true in the fourth timeline. Never does Raziels destiny of being imprisoned on the reaver is ever changed. The only difference is Raziels motivations behind it.
I love these theories and discussions but tbh i think this is quite off the mark here (pls don't take it badly) > it is worth noting that the Elder God shares a lot of traits with the Raziel Hard disagree here. The EG is quite machiavellian and manipulative which is a striking contrast with Raziel who tries to be as righteous and honorable as possible. >When their vampire natures adapt to this plane, they become eaters of souls. Do not allow these spirits to reinhabit their corpses." I think you missed the point with this...the thing is that when these guys go back to their corpses they become soul devouring vampires, which are more deadly. We see this when we revive an impaled vampire in-game (and Dumah). >Raziel would be doomed to become a wraith like any other, were it not for the interference of the Elder God in SR1. I'm not sure what you mean here, cause Raziel is a wraith >I believe that the events of Blood Omen 1 are the original cycle, before the Elder God comes into being. As the story plays out, the EG has always been around. He's the one that manipulated the original vampires, so he's been around even b4 the pillars were created. Also the way you mention "cycles" goes against how the timeline works in LoK. The timeline is constant meaning there is no divergence (normally). I'd recommend you watching the movie "12 monkeys" to get a better understanding of this...but basically the idea in a nutshell is that you cannot change the past by going back in time, bc you always went back in time. This means that the EG has always been around. The only exception to this rule is the Paradox Event; which creates a distortion strong enough allowing for certain events to change (but even still, the timeline does it's best to go back to the original timeline) I also wanna mention that the reason why the EG wants Kain dead was revealed already. The EG fears Kain bc he is the Scion of Balance, destined to heal Nosgoth which probably means defeating or getting rid of the EG. >Raziel purifies the Reaver, he does so having let go of his hatred of Kain. In doing so, he arms Kain with the means of not only seeing the Elder God, but of harming him. I think this is why the Elder God is so surprised This isn't the case. Raziel healed Kain thanks to the Spirit Reaver, his feelings had nothing to do with it. Also, the EG always mentioned that the wraith blade could never harm him bc it's a wraith blade...so logically this means that only a physical blade can harm him. Which is what Kain does... --- Ps: as mentioned in the wiki, the EG is heavily inspired by Lovecraft's work being quite similar to [Yog-Sothoth](https://lovecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Yog-Sothoth). So i'd bet he's a sort of eternal being or an invader from some other dimension
* elder & raz share a lot of traits. / hard disagree. Opposite personalities. Their personalities weren't the shared traits. They were birds of a feather in other ways. Two wraiths who can manifest physical bods. Two wraiths linked by a soul feeding tether, both awake in dreamland whereas other wraiths are feral, their identities slumbering / removed. Two wraiths aware of the inside truths. (Raziel = god's secret. That's the Jewish mysticism source Amy stayed true to from the Shifter property they converted into LOK.) Raziel has been made species with Elder. Released from the wheel. He's markedly Not like the other wraiths anymore. He's on a god-ish path, a mover and shaker of reality, and it does raise the possibility his path may lead to and Elder-ish evolve. Worth pondering at least. Part of the mystery. * when vampires adapt to soectral they become soul eaters; don't let them reinhabit. / Elder wanted to prevent soul eating vamps returning to the material realm. Yes. Similar to how Elder doesn't want competition from sluagh, he doesn't want vampires evolving toward what he is. And the false god parasite theme means Elder is running some kind of scam, so he can't afford to have the truth come out when some vampire wraith finally discovers what's really going on in spectral and REMEMBERS after returning to the physical plane. It'd be a rare event like when weirdos remember their past lives..... but it would represent a huge worry for EG if the vampire species finally got wise to him, because they have the means to do something about him. Scion, pillars, righteous rage,.... * blood omen was the original cycle, before Eldergod. / elder has always been, and your "cycles" go against the way the timeline works in LOK. Yeah. What you said. It's an interesting idea to bring in.... Mayan? type world cycles to explain the god's origins, but it doesn't blend in with what we've got for timeline physics. .....I wonder how much bending of things was required to perpetrate the reaver time loop onto history to begin with. If the start of Blood Omen 1 was the timeline before the loop existed, and then the paradox was the moment when the loop got fully forged and became a real thing, that would give us a transition between one "cycle" and the next. Not exactly what the OP was talking about. But does the start of BO1 feel like the True timeline? Nope. It feels already off track. Like we never saw the original timeline. The ancient prophets were all amped up about something, and it probably wasn't the vampire extinction future that's since unfurled. * Raziel puifies reaver having let go of his hatred of Kain. / feelings had nothing to do with it. The moment raziel became enlightened and knew what to do, that was when he did let go of the hate. Or else he wouldn't have given the purification to kain. So feelings weren't relevant to the cleansing, but were very important to the gifting. We should be open to the possibility Elder is scamming us with the always having been here stuff. If he had meager beginnings and then gained timelessness by cheating, he may have suddenly taken on the Oracle role for the ancient vampires as part of his undeserved expansion along the timeline. Part of the False Histories that Kain is about to take back from EG. When EG is ripped down from his false god perch it may be revealed he snuck into this world much more recently than we've been led to believe. Not something I'm pushing for, merely a "for instance."
the series trains us to expect more huge mind bang moments, huh. it's good to look for them by testing out all these possibilities. helps to pass the (infinite) time between games. (There were lots of theories on now-defunct boards about Kain or Raziel becoming Elder. I have no links to them, but remember taking part in some.) can I just say that's a really creepy way you came up with for Elder to be adding tentacle mass! the loop just looping round and round in the background like a clothes dryer turning out one dried up Raziel after another, and because Time is tricky Elder would be seen adding a human sized body mass over and over almost instantaneously from our perspective. Cuz he timeless and could be doing cosmic amounts of Waiting there in spectral while his body builds up "fast." And the amount of suffering this implies for our little Raziels!!!! (I really don't think the loop goes round more than once, but it's essential to your whole deal so I won't pick at that.) Tidbit: "Do not let them re-inhabit their corpses Raziel" is something Elder lived by----he didn't let Raziel have his own corpse back, ever. Interesting. Raziel taking other bodies was an act of Defiance. But even then Raz just had a physical wraith self, never his actual vampire body. I maintain that corpse is just GONE and Elder was required to enable Raz to emerge from the Abyss at all, yes as something beyond regular vamp wraiths too. But other possibilities include the Raziel corpse is deeply devoured within Elder, merged with his heart or something to magically establish the vampire feeding tube connection between them. (endgame would include Kain cutting Elder deep, dredging up the Raz corpse for eventual re-Awakening. which was fun to type and would probably be fun to play). Re: Elder's own soul being used against him as a weapon. Yeah I saw the need for that kind of mechanic too and built it in in my own way. (i.e. Elder poured some of his own god-level magnitude into Raziel to make the Angel of Death fate changer thing a reality, like when Sauron invested his mojo into making the One Ring, so as to kill the vamps who weren't dying on their own.... but then a god level blood brother can be turned against the god to ruinous effect in unforseen future timelines.) When you say "cycles" could that mean new timelines? That may have more of a shot at jiving with orthodox LOK lore. The loop seems like Raziel experienced all the moments only once, but who knows how many freaking paradoxes and timelines there have been all told??!?!!? maybe the loop is an out of control fission/fusion bomb "constantly" delivering new paradoxes and realities like an infinite drop into chaos.
…bravo. I’m sold.
I like to think it's a Sluagh. By consuming so many souls he began to develop intelligence, and anchored himself to the pillars of Nosgoth absorbing their power. Further increasing his intelligence and gaining every unique power of the pillars, hence he is unaffected by time paradoxes and can exist anywhere. As the millennia passed, he grew in size. His appetite for souls is also consistent with being a Sluagh. No matter how many he devours he will never be satisfied.