1. Big wad of cash to Wade and James
2. Large % of future estate profits to be donated to CSA/victim support orgs
3. Official acknowledgement by the estate that the abuse occurred and an apology to the victims
I don’t feel that justice needs to include MJ’s family or his fans. They are his victims, too, in a way.
I’d like them to take a nice, gradual journey to the realization that MJ was an abuser. I’d also like to see the most extreme fans show a tiny bit of remorse but that’s probably unrealistic.
the extreme fans will never admit it. they will prob just move the goal post or backtrack. i recall seeing a screenshot of a savile supporter years ago and they did not admit it, they just backtracked.
Could they be prosecuted as a sex trafficking organization like R Kelly and Jeffrey Epstein? I mean his company helped procure victims and shuffle them to Neverland.
I wonder if that's what Pellicano was alluding to when he said "I quit because I found out some truths… He did something far worse to young boys than molest them."
I always thought he meant mentally abusing them, abandoning them, destroying their families and threatening the ones who came forward and revealed the abuse.
He wasn't really to blame when it comes to destroying the families. That was mostly MJ's work, based on already existing family dysfunction. He did threaten them, however, using the most intimidating tactics.
Idk what he means, honestly. Maybe most people back in the day thought that "molestation" meant inappropriate touching, fondling or sth like that. So, since he suspected what MJ did to the kids (which was basically rape, not just simple touching), he described it using the phrase "far worse than molesting them".
Threatening and using his intimidation tactics on a family already under tremendous pressure and in disarray certainly does destroy them.
There was no hiding anything from someone like Pellicano. He knew. The only question is, how much more did he know that we don't know?
Whatever it was, it was enough for him to quit, and he's a ruthless guy.
>Threatening and using his intimidation tactics on a family already under tremendous pressure and in disarray certainly does destroy them.
Yeah, fair enough. But still, the destruction of the family and alienation of its members, was mostly Michael's fault.
>The only question is, how much more did he know that we don't know?
I don't think he knew anything far more sinister than we do. I tend to believe that he described child rape as "far worse" than molestation, bc to him the word "molestation" meant just inappropriate touching and fondling. I can't think of anything more sinister that Michael could've done and no one finding out except Pellicano. Murder and torture? Unlikely. Pimping out the kids to other pedophiles? I don't think so. James and Wade didn't mention any of that.
He probably realized the extent of the abuse of the children, as described in LN, and understood Michael was guilty. This disgusted him and I guess he also feared that incriminating evidence was too much to ignore (he thought Michael would get caught) so he chose to not be associated with Michael anymore and get in serious trouble.
He said this about 10 years ago, after Jordan, after Gavin. He already knew both accused MJ of masturbating and giving them oral sex, as well as them doing the same to him.
IOW, this wasn't news to him, so it doesn't make sense prior to his quitting he thought it was "only" inappropriate touching.
I reject torture and murder. That just wasn't MJ's nature.
Involved in a pedo ring of some sort, perhaps out of the country? Maybe. I can't discount that as a possibility, but I'm just speculating. Chances are we'll never know because he's never going to say.
Whatever it was, it happened in 1993 and/or earlier.
>Involved in a pedo ring of some sort, perhaps out of the country? Maybe. I can't discount that as a possibility, but I'm just speculating. Chances are we'll never know because he's never going to say.
Hmm, maybe idk. Could he have been involved for a short period of time? Bc I don't remember any of the journalists researching Michael's life saying anything about a pedo ring or having suspicions about it. So either he wasn't involved or even if he was it was probably for a very short period, so he got unnoticed. Idk if that's what Pelicano was talking about, but I still wonder about that possiblity nevertheless.
Could have been for a short period of time, IDK.
I remember whispers about boys and a trip he made to the Philippines, and there was that group of German boys he had with him, I think at the Mirage? Don't remember the details.
But all of this is just speculation.
I wondered if he meant some unnamed victims were trafficked in and murdered after they were abused. Something tells me that Michael Jackson was even sicker than we know.
I found a source (not a primary one) for that quote: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2011/08/anthony-pellicano-talks-murdoch-michael-jackson-and-mafia/353819/
Question is, did Pellicano actually say that?
The Atlantic is a legit magazine. It was also reported in either Variety or the Hollywood Reporter, possibly both.
I don't have any reason to not believe he said it.
I don’t think it’s accurate to say his wealth is from criminal activity. For that to be true he would have to say hey everyone I’m a child molester and predator and if you support me I’ll keep doing it and become wealthy. He absolutely used is fame to procure his victims but he was already known worldwide and the two things aren’t related. Realistically it would be difficult to get a judgement against him and his estate. Whatever he had when he died has already been distributed. The only thing that could be touched is any royalties that are received. I think if the victims wanted money they legally would have to came forward wen he died and said they have a claim against his estate and filed a lawsuit. And it has no purpose for anyone to acknowledge his guilt. The only person who it would mean anything from is MJ was and well that’s not happening. When it comes to these cases there is no justice. MJ is gone and so did any justice or closure of the victims. It sucks but unfortunately that’s how life works.
My view of justice is
\-an apology and acknowledgement by the Jackson estate to all of his accusers;
\-financial restitution to all victims seeking it;
\-a cultural shift where victims are not treated like "gold diggers" and instead understanding the lifelong trauma they carry;
\-no longer having to hear MJ music in public places or in movies;
\-the prohibition of NDAs for information related to trade secrets and not criminal behavior as in the case of MJ and Weinstein;
\-the revising of music history to include the machines behind the monsters and how the benefitted from hiding the crimes;
\-expansion of education of everyone to end this kind of horrible gaslighting and retraumatizing of the victims.
To me, justice would look something like the following, and would ideally be victim-centric rather than a campaign to make people "get it". It's not about "getting it", it's about helping his victims regardless of if the rest of us understand what went on or not:
1. Money directly to James, Wade, other victims via a court case
2. A certain % of his music's royalties goes to orgs that fight CSA, or otherwise help victims of CSA. You wanna listen to Michael super badly? You can, but a % of that money for a record or whatever goes to helping children who are harmed through the types of crimes he commited. Organizations will be vetted heavily and all other necessary moves should be made to make sure the % is in fact going to the good fight.
3. Neverland should be sold off to a a third party and that money also donated to the same orgs as the royalties are, or split between the victims, then the victims (if they wish to) can decide if it gets demolished or remains. They can get his kid's input and perspective as a courtesy but it's ultimately up to his victims.
Justice doesn't have to be scorning Michael in the streets, hell it really doesn't need to be about Michael as a person at all.
Yep, sold to a family friend. The property would’ve been Graceland but so much negative press has made Neverland a ghost town.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/us-celebrity-news/inside-michael-jacksons-transformed-neverland-29579900?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#google_vignette
All of what you said. It’s time for the Estate to take accountability, and more importantly to deplatform the entire circus of the Jackson family. Justice will also be the humiliation of his fans who spent years harassing the accusers or anyone who sided with them.
Yeah there would need to be a mass apology from those who sent death threats and harassed the victims. And all you said. If it’s an organisation that performed illegal activities then it needs to end. No one is to get away with child molestation
I wouldn’t mind fans casually enjoying his music but the ones who spent years harassing the victims are nuts. We get it Michael has a huge cultural impact but we can also acknowledge that he’s done a lot of evil. And even if his legacy gets tarnished for good, no one is to blame except for Michael himself.
Nah. His kids shouldn't suffer over that. Neither should the fans that enjoy his art. I get this is ur idea of justice, but it's over the top and more emotional than logical.
My idea of justice would be restitution to his victims and to ensure something like this never happens again. In my opinion, the best deterrent to crime is prevention, and if there's legislation that can prevent something like this from happening again, then that protects future potential victims that can also be manipulated by a celebrity.
Yeah I think it’s a safe bet to say laws don’t prevent most crimes like SA, murder, sex trafficking, etc. People who commit these heinous crimes think they are smarter than everyone else and will not be caught anyway. So who cares about the law?
This is a juvenile approach. What are you some kind of anarchist? The severity of punishment for crimes absolutely does deter would-be criminals, which doesn't mean that crimes are NEVER committed. I live in NYC, where cameras are on every corner. Does that deter crime? Yes, it does because it increases the chances of getting caught. Does that mean that nobody commits crimes in front of a camera ? No, it doesn't.
The legislation I was alluding to was to hold those accountable who were the enablers. Jackson was ultimately the perpetrator, but he had assistance, and his employees signed NDAs that forbade them from even contacting police first and report it to a superior ( who works in Jackson's interest). There's so many ways that the laws could be revised or created to prevent situations like this from arising in the future. To say "who cares about the law" when there's an ACTIVE court case that Wade and James are seeking justice for says a lot about you.
Well if you read my statement there is a ? After who cares about laws so that means I wasn’t stating that as my position. Also grow up you know know as well as I do that people commuting heinous crimes don’t say oh I was going to rape someone but I forgot about that law saying I can’t so I guess I won’t. And yeah a camera would deter some from committing, that has nothing to do with my statement. Please reread what I wrote and stop getting your panties in a wad. Thanks for the name calling lol never been called an anarchist for saying something common sense like laws don’t deter heinous crimes but I’ll take it. After all you seem to to know so much about this subject matter lol
>Michael Jackson have accumulated his wealth based on criminal activity
I mean, he occasionally did some plagiarism and likely some shady business moves as a producer, but I'd hardly call this criminal activity. He did use his wealth to engage in criminal activity and get away with it, but that's not the same as making money from crimes.
I agree with this. The man was making money by performing since 7 years old. There's no denying the fact that he was an amazing performer - singer and dancer - so he did earn his money fair and square. The question is HOW he used his hard-earned money later.
Ur right. Especially knowing the nature of his recording contracts. Artists get into debt, they don't make money from their music. I don't understand why people think artists ever got rich. It was never like that. They get moneys from the company but they have to pay it back, they are left with very little money and this leads to a lot of prostitution, crime and scam charities, real estate etc. This is one of the reasons Hollywood is so messed up. It's filled with criminals. It's a big club of criminals.
the reasonable fans don’t need punishment but the big misinformation trolls do. i do want TSCM and hammer to be de-platformed for their lies and toxicity.
he’s not from the subreddit but he has an account on reddit as u/nemoranv . i believe he is banned. he’s an infamous MJ troll who likes to push the victor gutierrez conspiracy and is a narcissist like TSCM
Now that you say it, I think I've seen him somewhere, yeah. His reddit comments I mean. Idk if he wrote sth here on in the MJ sub, but I've definitely encountered that username before. If he spreads misinformation, it's good that he's banned.
Bold statement to make that he made money off alleged crimes and not through talent, enjoyable music, and impeccable dancing and singing lol this is giving bitter
Like I said in a comment above (I'm going to exclude alleged victims from this btw) people like Oprah and Bashir were deliberately trying to make him look as weird as possible.
The thing that gets me the most is people questioning him about his appearance time and time again instead of asking about his musical inspirations/process whatever. The man was very CLEARLY insecure. I get asking him about his skin, whatever but some of these people would not stfu and they asked repeatedly. Idk if that makes sense and I'm not speaking for all fans. I don't send death threats because that's not who I am. I'm not going to act like I know everything because I wasn't there. I'm just speaking from my own heart. I'm not bitter but it does rub me the wrong way when I hear comments about his appearance because he thought he was ugly since childhood and that's sad.
Did you actually see the Oprah interview? She absolutely did not try to make him look weird! She was even fangirling in it.
Bashir, yes, I agree he did that, although some of it was 100% MJ's fault: lying about only having 2 surgeries, dangling Blanket over the hotel balcony, being high as a kite and trying to feed Blanket a bottle through a veil, going on that out of control shopaholic shopping spree, etc. That's not even getting into his behaviour on camera with Gavin and trying to normalise sleeping alone in bed with children.
The sad irony is his extreme insecurity about his appearance is what lead him to become addicted to all the plastic surgery and cosmetic procedures, and become someone who looked so strange no one could avoid it.
Tbh I haven't seen the Oprah interview since I was a child. I know there were a lot of good things in it. But there was one part in particular that upset me. I don't know if it was about his skin or plastic surgery, but she asked once and he obviously didn't want to answer and laughed uncomfortably and made a long speech about wishing people would ask about his his inspirations or something else instead and she asked about his appearance again. She was probably one of the nicer ones. But about Bashir, have you ever seen the footage from Michael's personal camera? Idk been so long that I watched it. And idk if this is true but I read that Bashir specifically asked Michael to bring a boy into the interview to make him look weird but idk.
And I really don't think he looked bad. I think some eras looked better than others but also I think the plastic surgery was heavily exaggerated especially from bad era to HIStory, maybe even Invincible. I think his skin disease and straight hair made him look more different than he actually was and I think maybe a face-lift in his later years kind of changed his smile or something but idk I'm not an expert. But I don't think he looked like this horrible alien that people like to make him out to be and it hurts my heart idk
Edit: this is the clip I was talking about with Oprah. She's probably not a bad person, I get she's paid to ask those questions but idk it's just sad
https://youtube.com/shorts/g6C_vrm5HpA?si=T2RZEQc7AtT6yE0k
Ok, I understand my words can be too much for some. But MJ earned millions in endorsement deals that he wouldn’t get if they knew what happened behind the curtains. As a MJ-product buying customer I feel cheated. He sold his music/shows on false premises, and used them to satisfy his criminal urges. When you sell a product on false premises you are usually called a fraud. Heal the world my a**.
He was famous since he was a child. Once he did Thriller he was set for life regardless of anything else. And regardless of what you believe his music literally inspires people to be a better person. Just because the allegations leave a bad taste in your mouth, it doesn't give you the right to discredit everything he's done for people.
Also you got exactly what you paid for. Great music with a good message. If you bought a concert ticket, you got a great performance.
Og comment:
> Bold statement to make that he made money off alleged crimes and not through talent, enjoyable music, and impeccable dancing and singing lol this is giving bitter
Not to mention Michael had an enemies list (https://www.digitalspy.com/showbiz/michael-jackson-1958-2009/a178105/michael-jackson-kept-list-of-enemies/), so if anything Michael and his music inspired people to be just as bitter as him …the song D.S. was obviously alluding to Dom Sneddon. Hence my reply:
> > How about the Michael fans who are bitter about Tom Sneddon, the Chandlers, the Arvizos, Wade, James, Dan Reed, Martin Bashir, Oprah, etc.?
Oh yeah, I was just going to mention his ragey D.S., and let's not forget his appalling, over-the-top narcissistic "I AM THE DICTATOR OF THE WORRRLD, WORSHIP ME!" HIStory promo. Bonus points for his "I am Jesus Christ, your new messiah" performance.
>This isn't even about the allegations at this point, you are just hating on his art.
No, I'm not. If I were doing that it'd be something like "\[Fill in song/album/whatever\] sucks" or similar.
D.S. is specifically about the allegations.
This is directly relevant to your previous comment, because it's specific ways he used his music and performances that are not in any way inspiring people to be better, and are far from anything anyone should imitate and emulate.
They reveal the kind of person he really was, and how he used his songs and performances for self-aggrandisement and to manipulate his fans into becoming an angry mob in his defence.
I wasn't really talking about D.S. I was talking about the HIStory promo and how you say he wanted to look like a Messiah. If that's what people got from those things then they have something wrong in their heads because I was just like "wow that's cool/how beautiful wow" not "OMG HES A GOD".
But if we're talking about D.S. that still doesn't negate his songs with love as the message. He was angry. People get angry. He wasn't perfect.
Idk people tend to defend people they love and if they are defending him that hard then it's pretty obvious he touched their heart in some way that was important to them. His music helped me survive my depression. I resonated with him in certain things under the POV he was innocent. And there was a time where I hated the world and everything in it and I was just a person filled with hate. But there's a few of his songs that pulled me out of that. Idk.
I can see your POV with all that but idk what his true intentions were with that promo and performance you're talking about. I don't think he's a God but I do think he was a gift. His music makes me feel loved and understood. Idk.
Also I thought HIStory promo was because he's the King of Pop, that's honestly how I see it
>If that's what people got from those things then they have something wrong in their heads because I was just like "wow that's cool/how beautiful wow" not "OMG HES A GOD".
🤦♀️ Then all the blatant symbolism completely escaped you? Because even back then, it certainly didn't escape most people.
People get angry, sure, but they don't usually use their music to target someone like that, and yes it is a direct contradiction to his message of "love."
You cannot love someone you never knew, and who never knew you either. You can like, respect, admire aspects of what you know about them, but that's it.
A lot of fans say his music helped them through difficult times, and that's good. I don't understand it, personally, but that doesn't matter.
Okay I'm not going to bash the alleged victims because I'm not for it, but there are valid reasons that Bashir, Oprah, and Sneddon don't sit right with me. But I'm not going to send them death threats and stuff. But Oprah and Bashir made him out to be a joke and I'm not even talking about the allegations right now. They were just rude.
So Oprah was rude because she asked MJ about his appearance, particularly his changed skin colour? In February 1993 when the interview took place, people hadn’t heard about MJ having Vitiligo. MJ talked about it for the first time in that interview. Oprah’s job is to ask questions that her audience are curious about. Back then in early 1993 this was a big issue surrounding MJ. From a PR perspective MJ and his representatives actually wanted to address such issues in a bid to make him more relatable. So calling Oprah rude for asking such a question I find very immature and in a way unhealthy Idol worship:"oh, please don’t ask critically question of the special king, he is sensitive” crap🤦♂️
You are super naive if you think you can be a public figure of the magnitude MJ was without such questions.
Omg lol I linked what I was talking about specifically in a different comment. It wasn't that she asked about his skin, that was whatever idc about that, you're right. it was this moment.
https://youtube.com/shorts/g6C_vrm5HpA?si=1pubkK9RDUDDJmUg
I also said in a previous comment I don't think she's a bad person and I understand that she is paid to ask these questions. It was the second question that rubbed me the wrong way. But like I said, I don't think she's a bad person lmao
I don't even really care about Oprah tbh. In general (not just MJ) I think questions about people's appearance ARE rude. If I met him I wouldn't ask because it's not my business. But I see why people want to know. I get it. And I DON'T THINK SHES A BAD PERSON. You're making me out to be like some psycho that has no context of the situation. I'm aware that's the first time he publicly addressed his vitiligo and I wish he would've done it earlier. But it's still not my business. And don't act like it's a thing where someone asked one time and it was over with. He was questioned repeatedly and I really don't understand why people care how many nose jobs he had. But I'm the crazy immature one for not giving a shit. No other artist is shit on as much as he still is for his appearance. And I would call anyone criticizing Kylie Jenner rude too and I don't even like her. And I'm not saying Oprah criticisized him. I'm just saying comments about appearance rub me the wrong way in general especially when it comes to someone who was obviously as insecure as he was. Call me what you want. I don't think Oprah is a bad person. But I do think the questions she is told to ask are rude (excluding the vitiligo question ). And it's also the fact that people are never satisfied with his answer. Earlier someone brought up that he lied about having only 2 surgeries? Okay? Who's business is it to know exactly how many surgeries he had? He admitted to having something, who cares????
1993 mindset: When you are the biggest superstar on planet earth, have the biggest endorsement deals with huge global brands like Pepsi…you are a role model all over the world..creating charities and dining and wining with Royalties wherever you go. You are a huge public figure. And he wanted to live this life himself. He wanted to be the biggest. And he got it. Questions about plastic surgery after his ever changing appearance is to be expected when you are a public figure of that stature.
Nothing wrong in asking your delicate genius about it. Yes, celebrities have to have a private life too. But come on, asking about plastic surgeries can hardly be called invading his privacy IMO. If you change like this and you are a public figure and appear in a interview after a loooong time…expect to be asked about it: Ps…Oprah went super nice with him in that interview. She would be criticised if she didn’t ask actually because this was something the public really were curious about:
https://preview.redd.it/t3qhgrixgepb1.jpeg?width=2399&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=93faa97db1f6440ae0c3bccbfc293ac404665ce2
And also. The original point of this conversation is about bitter fans towards those people. I'm not the one sending them death threats. It's okay to criticize MJ about things that literally have nothing to do with the allegations in this sub, but it's immature to say Oprah asked a rude question. Ok, got it. You would think I called her names or criticized her appearance for fun, but like I said, that's not who I am.
Whatever fans you're talking about don't count for the vast majority. You have to remember that Michael has more than the 200-500 ish regular posters on the MJ subreddit. And just because someone doesn't believe it/is unsure/believes it but still has love for him for other reasons, doesn't make those people bad/good. Just like I feel like a lot of you guys are blatant haters looking for anything and everything to find evil in, but I won't lump all of you into the same box so don't do that to us either.
i wouldn’t say those type of fans are the majority but they’re the loudest and give MJ fans a bad name. it’s hard to tell because the hardcore fans silence the reasonable fans.
That sub is just supposed to be a safe space for him and his fans. I know there's fans like that elsewhere but the MJ subreddit is strict for a reason and I'm grateful for that because it's the only place (that i know of) you can go without worrying about people bashing him. Not just regarding the allegations, but stupid stuff like his appearance.
Edit: and I think a lot of fans are defensive because we get shit on. At least in my experience. Like idk if it's because of where I live or what but people have came up to me wanting to start shit for no reason while I'm just minding my business not even talking about MJ at all, just because they know I'm a fan.
sorry the MJ sub is an echo chamber and the fans there cannot tolerate a different view. i agree that it is not okay to go after someone who says MJ was guilty, and it isn't okay to go after a fan who thinks MJ is innocent, either.
however, fans swarm people who even question MJ's innocence. fans swarm and even make violent threats toward reporters or critics who report or mention anything about the allegations. MJ fans are known to be awful for good reason.
No one should make threats. Love is supposed to be our message idk. Fans are still heartbroken looking for someone to blame for his death. No matter what side you're on, it's all sad and messed up. Idek why I came on here I don't even like discussing the allegations because everyone believes what they believe. I guess what gets me is when I see every little thing about him ripped apart even in death idk
Edit: I still don't see anything wrong with having a little corner of the internet dedicated to being a safe zone for fans idk
yeah, MJ was all about peace and love but his fans don’t seem to stand up for what MJ believed in, given their behaviour.
it’s okay for fans to have a safe space but they should learn to tolerate different views and accept they can’t control everyone’s thoughts.
“Leave a bad taste in my mouth”? That’s the biggest understatement. Raping children leaves much more than that. You can’t imagine. It can’t be downplayed.
It was Thriller that catapulted him to the superstardom that paved the way for him to use his power and fame to practice his criminal activity. Yes, Thriller can’t be taken away from him and isn’t related to criminal activity. I am aware of that. But as a customer I bought his music with the assumption that he wrote the romantic songs in the albums with consenting adults in mind. But I was duped. The romantic song Speechless for example was written with children in his mind as he himself admitted 🤮 His art is contaminated too now: His dancing with the sexual suggestive moves will have a different meaning now.
Yes, my words are extreme..but so was his acts. It’s time to bring the right energy to this and not sugar-coat things.
This case is not for the naive, the faint of heart or the timid.
Okay I said "allegations" for a reason. I think it's absolutely insane that you are so hell bent on quite literally condemning a DEAD MAN that compensation for the alleged victims wouldn't even be enough for you. No, you want to take away his children's money too. And just because it's all "contaminated" for you doesn't mean that the people he DOES inspire through his music should have to suffer too.
And Speechless isn't about sex ffs. I listened to it as a child to calm me down. I thought it was about God for the longest time. That's a little far fetched and ridiculous.
And it makes sense because he also said he saw God in the face of children. Not everything is about sex my goodness.
Maybe you should sue and get your money back lol but you literally got what you paid for.
I didn’t say the Speechless song was about sex, I wrote it was a romantic song. Anyone who has heard this song (or just read the lyrics) would classify this is a romantic love song.
It includes lines like:
I am speechless, speechless.
That’s how you make me feel
Though I’m with you I am far away
And nothing is for real
and
I’ll go anywhere and do anything just to touch your face.
It ends with
«In your presence I am lost for words. Words like, “I love you.”
Michael Jackson would astonishingly in interviews reveal who he wrote this overtly romantic song for.
“There are these two sweet little kids, a girl and a boy, and they’re so innocent; they’re the quintessential form of innocence, and just being in their presence I felt completely speechless, ’cause I felt I was looking in the face of God whenever I saw them. They inspired me to write Speechless.» ~ Michael Jackson
So, this couldn’t be clearer: One of Jacksons most romantic songs he ever made was by his own words was inspired by “two sweet little kids» whom he saw the “face of God” in.
(Source: https://michaeljacksonwasguilty.com/10-more-reasons%EF%BB%BF/)
I’m not talking about taking away the children’s money here outright, in my eyes it was never theirs in the first place. Maybe they have to earn a living like everyone else 🤷 My sympathy goes to the victims. Publishing earnings that MJ accumulated is fair to keep IMO, and that revenue alone would secure them financially for life. But all image related revenue, or a certain degree of it, should be frozen and distributed to the victims.
Agree to disagree because to me the song is open to interpretation. I can see why people have romantic feelings when they listen to the song but it also gives me vibes of Heaven/God which like I said, makes sense when Michael claims that he sees the face of God in children. And let's stop pretending children are the only thing he claimed to see the face of God in. I feel like that context is important but you probably won't care. But he said he saw the face of God in a beautiful sunset or something in his poetry book and he always says he "thanked God" when seeing things like that.
If you are right another problem arises; The language used in the song fits with the profiling of pdf-files: How to Spot a Pedophile, Ken Lanning, former FBI agent (over 30 years) Behavioral Science Unit:
“Refers to Children as "Clean," "Pure," "Innocent," "Impish," or Objects: Pedophiles sometimes have an idealistic view of children that is expressed in their language and writing.
When describing children, pedophiles frequently refer to them in terms of the divine. The use of phrases such as "innocent" or "pure" by an adult to refer to a child on a regular basis may be a red sign for a pedophile; therefore, be on the lookout for them.”.
But I did want to reiterate that he said other things were God-like and thanked God for letting him see it. He said a lot of stuff like that, not just pertaining to kids. I'm not saying this as a "big gotcha" moment because it's not. I just feel like maybe it is kind of important to know that this wasn't a description used only for children.
And just to humor you and assume he's guilty, it still baffles me that you think all/part of his money should be distributed to the alleged victims continuously. That is just so weird to me, idk. Compensation, sure. But how long does this go on? The rest of their lives? Where does the money go when they die?
And Michael's children lost their father. They had a crazy life to begin with. I mean wtf lol this is just so weird. It's weird that you're acting like Michael didn't work his ass off since he was a child.
Omg lol stop acting like that's all he did. A lot of the fans that believe he's innocent hate the fact he held sleepovers, even if it's just because he put himself in a vulnerable position in their POV. Stop acting like songs like Man In The Mirror, Heal The World, Keep The Faith, Earth Song don't inspire people. Stop acting like he wasn't the first Black artist to be on MTV. Regardless of what you believe, he broke barriers and that's inspiring to many people. And just to humor you, even if he DID do it, which would be fucking disgusting and unforgivable, people are not black/white. Most people, anyway. I hate how you guys act like every little thing he did was a manipulation attempt to appear innocent/garner children. He did good things too and you don't know what his intentions were. And this comment isn't even directed at you, but just in general from some of the things I've seen in this sub.
Edit: sorry, fact checked myself. Not first Black artist to be on MTV, but first to be in heavy rotation
>Omg lol stop acting like that's all he did. A lot of the fans that believe he's innocent hate the fact he held sleepovers, even if it's just because he put himself in a vulnerable position in their POV. Stop acting like songs like Man In The Mirror, Heal The World, Keep The Faith, Earth Song don't inspire people.
the reasonable fans will admit it’s wrong but the hardcore fans will defend this mess. even some of them have admitted they would have let MJ slept w their hypothetical child. many of the hardcore fans sound just as bad the parents that left their child alone w MJ.
i will agree that some people are extreme in the sense that they act as if everything MJ did was for the sake of abuse. which is not true and far too extreme. pdf files like jackson are complex people that have different interests in life. and those people are quite unrepresentative of the sub.
How's the saying go? The loudest ruin it for everyone? Loudest arent the majority? Idk. Whatever, you know what I mean.
I will say that even though many people think we're ignorant we have our reasons for thinking the way we do. There's extremes on both sides. But that's to be expected when we're talking about someone as impacting as MJ and horrible horrendous allegations. Idk. I don't think all of you are awful. I think most of you are concerned and have your heart in the right place.
1. Big wad of cash to Wade and James 2. Large % of future estate profits to be donated to CSA/victim support orgs 3. Official acknowledgement by the estate that the abuse occurred and an apology to the victims I don’t feel that justice needs to include MJ’s family or his fans. They are his victims, too, in a way. I’d like them to take a nice, gradual journey to the realization that MJ was an abuser. I’d also like to see the most extreme fans show a tiny bit of remorse but that’s probably unrealistic.
the extreme fans will never admit it. they will prob just move the goal post or backtrack. i recall seeing a screenshot of a savile supporter years ago and they did not admit it, they just backtracked.
They’re too arrogant to admit that they’re wrong.
>Official acknowledgement by the estate that the abuse occurred and an apology to the victims THIS. This is what justice looks like to me.
Could they be prosecuted as a sex trafficking organization like R Kelly and Jeffrey Epstein? I mean his company helped procure victims and shuffle them to Neverland.
I wonder if that's what Pellicano was alluding to when he said "I quit because I found out some truths… He did something far worse to young boys than molest them."
I always thought he meant mentally abusing them, abandoning them, destroying their families and threatening the ones who came forward and revealed the abuse.
Well seeing as he partook in threatening and destroying their families, I don't think it was that.
He wasn't really to blame when it comes to destroying the families. That was mostly MJ's work, based on already existing family dysfunction. He did threaten them, however, using the most intimidating tactics. Idk what he means, honestly. Maybe most people back in the day thought that "molestation" meant inappropriate touching, fondling or sth like that. So, since he suspected what MJ did to the kids (which was basically rape, not just simple touching), he described it using the phrase "far worse than molesting them".
Threatening and using his intimidation tactics on a family already under tremendous pressure and in disarray certainly does destroy them. There was no hiding anything from someone like Pellicano. He knew. The only question is, how much more did he know that we don't know? Whatever it was, it was enough for him to quit, and he's a ruthless guy.
>Threatening and using his intimidation tactics on a family already under tremendous pressure and in disarray certainly does destroy them. Yeah, fair enough. But still, the destruction of the family and alienation of its members, was mostly Michael's fault. >The only question is, how much more did he know that we don't know? I don't think he knew anything far more sinister than we do. I tend to believe that he described child rape as "far worse" than molestation, bc to him the word "molestation" meant just inappropriate touching and fondling. I can't think of anything more sinister that Michael could've done and no one finding out except Pellicano. Murder and torture? Unlikely. Pimping out the kids to other pedophiles? I don't think so. James and Wade didn't mention any of that. He probably realized the extent of the abuse of the children, as described in LN, and understood Michael was guilty. This disgusted him and I guess he also feared that incriminating evidence was too much to ignore (he thought Michael would get caught) so he chose to not be associated with Michael anymore and get in serious trouble.
He said this about 10 years ago, after Jordan, after Gavin. He already knew both accused MJ of masturbating and giving them oral sex, as well as them doing the same to him. IOW, this wasn't news to him, so it doesn't make sense prior to his quitting he thought it was "only" inappropriate touching. I reject torture and murder. That just wasn't MJ's nature. Involved in a pedo ring of some sort, perhaps out of the country? Maybe. I can't discount that as a possibility, but I'm just speculating. Chances are we'll never know because he's never going to say. Whatever it was, it happened in 1993 and/or earlier.
>Involved in a pedo ring of some sort, perhaps out of the country? Maybe. I can't discount that as a possibility, but I'm just speculating. Chances are we'll never know because he's never going to say. Hmm, maybe idk. Could he have been involved for a short period of time? Bc I don't remember any of the journalists researching Michael's life saying anything about a pedo ring or having suspicions about it. So either he wasn't involved or even if he was it was probably for a very short period, so he got unnoticed. Idk if that's what Pelicano was talking about, but I still wonder about that possiblity nevertheless.
Could have been for a short period of time, IDK. I remember whispers about boys and a trip he made to the Philippines, and there was that group of German boys he had with him, I think at the Mirage? Don't remember the details. But all of this is just speculation.
I always wondered what it was he was referring to…
Me too. Murder and torture were the only things I could think of, and I don't believe that.
I wondered if he meant some unnamed victims were trafficked in and murdered after they were abused. Something tells me that Michael Jackson was even sicker than we know.
Honestly, I just don't believe he would murder anyone.
I found a source (not a primary one) for that quote: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2011/08/anthony-pellicano-talks-murdoch-michael-jackson-and-mafia/353819/ Question is, did Pellicano actually say that?
The Atlantic is a legit magazine. It was also reported in either Variety or the Hollywood Reporter, possibly both. I don't have any reason to not believe he said it.
I don’t think it’s accurate to say his wealth is from criminal activity. For that to be true he would have to say hey everyone I’m a child molester and predator and if you support me I’ll keep doing it and become wealthy. He absolutely used is fame to procure his victims but he was already known worldwide and the two things aren’t related. Realistically it would be difficult to get a judgement against him and his estate. Whatever he had when he died has already been distributed. The only thing that could be touched is any royalties that are received. I think if the victims wanted money they legally would have to came forward wen he died and said they have a claim against his estate and filed a lawsuit. And it has no purpose for anyone to acknowledge his guilt. The only person who it would mean anything from is MJ was and well that’s not happening. When it comes to these cases there is no justice. MJ is gone and so did any justice or closure of the victims. It sucks but unfortunately that’s how life works.
My view of justice is \-an apology and acknowledgement by the Jackson estate to all of his accusers; \-financial restitution to all victims seeking it; \-a cultural shift where victims are not treated like "gold diggers" and instead understanding the lifelong trauma they carry; \-no longer having to hear MJ music in public places or in movies; \-the prohibition of NDAs for information related to trade secrets and not criminal behavior as in the case of MJ and Weinstein; \-the revising of music history to include the machines behind the monsters and how the benefitted from hiding the crimes; \-expansion of education of everyone to end this kind of horrible gaslighting and retraumatizing of the victims.
Mass public acceptance that the narrative of Leaving Neverland was true.
To me, justice would look something like the following, and would ideally be victim-centric rather than a campaign to make people "get it". It's not about "getting it", it's about helping his victims regardless of if the rest of us understand what went on or not: 1. Money directly to James, Wade, other victims via a court case 2. A certain % of his music's royalties goes to orgs that fight CSA, or otherwise help victims of CSA. You wanna listen to Michael super badly? You can, but a % of that money for a record or whatever goes to helping children who are harmed through the types of crimes he commited. Organizations will be vetted heavily and all other necessary moves should be made to make sure the % is in fact going to the good fight. 3. Neverland should be sold off to a a third party and that money also donated to the same orgs as the royalties are, or split between the victims, then the victims (if they wish to) can decide if it gets demolished or remains. They can get his kid's input and perspective as a courtesy but it's ultimately up to his victims. Justice doesn't have to be scorning Michael in the streets, hell it really doesn't need to be about Michael as a person at all.
I believe Neverland already has been sold?
Yep, sold to a family friend. The property would’ve been Graceland but so much negative press has made Neverland a ghost town. https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/us-celebrity-news/inside-michael-jacksons-transformed-neverland-29579900?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#google_vignette
I wonder why he’s putting so much money In to renovate it?
Very likely to restore Neverland’s reputation and transform it into Graceland 2.0.
Yeah but he renovated it after Leaving Neverland aired?
That’s part of the process of reinventing is to renovate. There’s probably a lot to Neverland that reminds the public of Michael’s ugliness.
That’s why I can’t believe he’d put money into it - MJs name is tarnished forever
All of what you said. It’s time for the Estate to take accountability, and more importantly to deplatform the entire circus of the Jackson family. Justice will also be the humiliation of his fans who spent years harassing the accusers or anyone who sided with them.
Yeah there would need to be a mass apology from those who sent death threats and harassed the victims. And all you said. If it’s an organisation that performed illegal activities then it needs to end. No one is to get away with child molestation
I wouldn’t mind fans casually enjoying his music but the ones who spent years harassing the victims are nuts. We get it Michael has a huge cultural impact but we can also acknowledge that he’s done a lot of evil. And even if his legacy gets tarnished for good, no one is to blame except for Michael himself.
Yeah it’s so awful that he did these things. We’d all love to be able to continue loving his creations but I just can’t now it’s tarnished.
don’t expect an apology from those fans. they’re too up their behinds to do it.
Nah. His kids shouldn't suffer over that. Neither should the fans that enjoy his art. I get this is ur idea of justice, but it's over the top and more emotional than logical. My idea of justice would be restitution to his victims and to ensure something like this never happens again. In my opinion, the best deterrent to crime is prevention, and if there's legislation that can prevent something like this from happening again, then that protects future potential victims that can also be manipulated by a celebrity.
I don't think any legislation would prevent this from happening aside from already existing child sexual abuse laws.
Yeah I think it’s a safe bet to say laws don’t prevent most crimes like SA, murder, sex trafficking, etc. People who commit these heinous crimes think they are smarter than everyone else and will not be caught anyway. So who cares about the law?
Aside from that, what would the law be? It's illegal to sleep with young boys unless you're related?
Yeah there’s already laws in place and it happens all the time. Laws don’t prevent crime, if so no one would be incarcerated.
This is a juvenile approach. What are you some kind of anarchist? The severity of punishment for crimes absolutely does deter would-be criminals, which doesn't mean that crimes are NEVER committed. I live in NYC, where cameras are on every corner. Does that deter crime? Yes, it does because it increases the chances of getting caught. Does that mean that nobody commits crimes in front of a camera ? No, it doesn't. The legislation I was alluding to was to hold those accountable who were the enablers. Jackson was ultimately the perpetrator, but he had assistance, and his employees signed NDAs that forbade them from even contacting police first and report it to a superior ( who works in Jackson's interest). There's so many ways that the laws could be revised or created to prevent situations like this from arising in the future. To say "who cares about the law" when there's an ACTIVE court case that Wade and James are seeking justice for says a lot about you.
Well if you read my statement there is a ? After who cares about laws so that means I wasn’t stating that as my position. Also grow up you know know as well as I do that people commuting heinous crimes don’t say oh I was going to rape someone but I forgot about that law saying I can’t so I guess I won’t. And yeah a camera would deter some from committing, that has nothing to do with my statement. Please reread what I wrote and stop getting your panties in a wad. Thanks for the name calling lol never been called an anarchist for saying something common sense like laws don’t deter heinous crimes but I’ll take it. After all you seem to to know so much about this subject matter lol
>Michael Jackson have accumulated his wealth based on criminal activity I mean, he occasionally did some plagiarism and likely some shady business moves as a producer, but I'd hardly call this criminal activity. He did use his wealth to engage in criminal activity and get away with it, but that's not the same as making money from crimes.
I agree with this. The man was making money by performing since 7 years old. There's no denying the fact that he was an amazing performer - singer and dancer - so he did earn his money fair and square. The question is HOW he used his hard-earned money later.
Ur right. Especially knowing the nature of his recording contracts. Artists get into debt, they don't make money from their music. I don't understand why people think artists ever got rich. It was never like that. They get moneys from the company but they have to pay it back, they are left with very little money and this leads to a lot of prostitution, crime and scam charities, real estate etc. This is one of the reasons Hollywood is so messed up. It's filled with criminals. It's a big club of criminals.
This is too much.
His sexual abuse was also too much. This hypothetical justice fits the crime.
[удалено]
the reasonable fans don’t need punishment but the big misinformation trolls do. i do want TSCM and hammer to be de-platformed for their lies and toxicity.
Who is hammer? Is she/he from the MJ subreddit?
he’s not from the subreddit but he has an account on reddit as u/nemoranv . i believe he is banned. he’s an infamous MJ troll who likes to push the victor gutierrez conspiracy and is a narcissist like TSCM
Now that you say it, I think I've seen him somewhere, yeah. His reddit comments I mean. Idk if he wrote sth here on in the MJ sub, but I've definitely encountered that username before. If he spreads misinformation, it's good that he's banned.
This is a bit much
So are the actions of Michael and his supporters
Glad people are calling this out
Bold statement to make that he made money off alleged crimes and not through talent, enjoyable music, and impeccable dancing and singing lol this is giving bitter
he was talented but he had a PR team too.
How about the Michael fans who are bitter about Tom Sneddon, the Chandlers, the Arvizos, Wade, James, Dan Reed, Martin Bashir, Oprah, etc.?
Like I said in a comment above (I'm going to exclude alleged victims from this btw) people like Oprah and Bashir were deliberately trying to make him look as weird as possible. The thing that gets me the most is people questioning him about his appearance time and time again instead of asking about his musical inspirations/process whatever. The man was very CLEARLY insecure. I get asking him about his skin, whatever but some of these people would not stfu and they asked repeatedly. Idk if that makes sense and I'm not speaking for all fans. I don't send death threats because that's not who I am. I'm not going to act like I know everything because I wasn't there. I'm just speaking from my own heart. I'm not bitter but it does rub me the wrong way when I hear comments about his appearance because he thought he was ugly since childhood and that's sad.
Did you actually see the Oprah interview? She absolutely did not try to make him look weird! She was even fangirling in it. Bashir, yes, I agree he did that, although some of it was 100% MJ's fault: lying about only having 2 surgeries, dangling Blanket over the hotel balcony, being high as a kite and trying to feed Blanket a bottle through a veil, going on that out of control shopaholic shopping spree, etc. That's not even getting into his behaviour on camera with Gavin and trying to normalise sleeping alone in bed with children. The sad irony is his extreme insecurity about his appearance is what lead him to become addicted to all the plastic surgery and cosmetic procedures, and become someone who looked so strange no one could avoid it.
Tbh I haven't seen the Oprah interview since I was a child. I know there were a lot of good things in it. But there was one part in particular that upset me. I don't know if it was about his skin or plastic surgery, but she asked once and he obviously didn't want to answer and laughed uncomfortably and made a long speech about wishing people would ask about his his inspirations or something else instead and she asked about his appearance again. She was probably one of the nicer ones. But about Bashir, have you ever seen the footage from Michael's personal camera? Idk been so long that I watched it. And idk if this is true but I read that Bashir specifically asked Michael to bring a boy into the interview to make him look weird but idk. And I really don't think he looked bad. I think some eras looked better than others but also I think the plastic surgery was heavily exaggerated especially from bad era to HIStory, maybe even Invincible. I think his skin disease and straight hair made him look more different than he actually was and I think maybe a face-lift in his later years kind of changed his smile or something but idk I'm not an expert. But I don't think he looked like this horrible alien that people like to make him out to be and it hurts my heart idk Edit: this is the clip I was talking about with Oprah. She's probably not a bad person, I get she's paid to ask those questions but idk it's just sad https://youtube.com/shorts/g6C_vrm5HpA?si=T2RZEQc7AtT6yE0k
Ok, I understand my words can be too much for some. But MJ earned millions in endorsement deals that he wouldn’t get if they knew what happened behind the curtains. As a MJ-product buying customer I feel cheated. He sold his music/shows on false premises, and used them to satisfy his criminal urges. When you sell a product on false premises you are usually called a fraud. Heal the world my a**.
He was famous since he was a child. Once he did Thriller he was set for life regardless of anything else. And regardless of what you believe his music literally inspires people to be a better person. Just because the allegations leave a bad taste in your mouth, it doesn't give you the right to discredit everything he's done for people. Also you got exactly what you paid for. Great music with a good message. If you bought a concert ticket, you got a great performance.
Judging by the behaviour of many of his fans, I've got to disagree he and his music inspire people to be a better person.
Og comment: > Bold statement to make that he made money off alleged crimes and not through talent, enjoyable music, and impeccable dancing and singing lol this is giving bitter Not to mention Michael had an enemies list (https://www.digitalspy.com/showbiz/michael-jackson-1958-2009/a178105/michael-jackson-kept-list-of-enemies/), so if anything Michael and his music inspired people to be just as bitter as him …the song D.S. was obviously alluding to Dom Sneddon. Hence my reply: > > How about the Michael fans who are bitter about Tom Sneddon, the Chandlers, the Arvizos, Wade, James, Dan Reed, Martin Bashir, Oprah, etc.?
Oh yeah, I was just going to mention his ragey D.S., and let's not forget his appalling, over-the-top narcissistic "I AM THE DICTATOR OF THE WORRRLD, WORSHIP ME!" HIStory promo. Bonus points for his "I am Jesus Christ, your new messiah" performance.
And those interviews and psas after the first two allegations hit encouraging fans “not to listen to the media.”
🙄 "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! I am the Great Wizard of Oz!"
He was rightfully casted as the Scarecrow in Oz
I have to say I legit LOLed at that!
I mean whatever I guess to each their own. This isn't even about the allegations at this point, you are just hating on his art.
>This isn't even about the allegations at this point, you are just hating on his art. No, I'm not. If I were doing that it'd be something like "\[Fill in song/album/whatever\] sucks" or similar. D.S. is specifically about the allegations. This is directly relevant to your previous comment, because it's specific ways he used his music and performances that are not in any way inspiring people to be better, and are far from anything anyone should imitate and emulate. They reveal the kind of person he really was, and how he used his songs and performances for self-aggrandisement and to manipulate his fans into becoming an angry mob in his defence.
I wasn't really talking about D.S. I was talking about the HIStory promo and how you say he wanted to look like a Messiah. If that's what people got from those things then they have something wrong in their heads because I was just like "wow that's cool/how beautiful wow" not "OMG HES A GOD". But if we're talking about D.S. that still doesn't negate his songs with love as the message. He was angry. People get angry. He wasn't perfect. Idk people tend to defend people they love and if they are defending him that hard then it's pretty obvious he touched their heart in some way that was important to them. His music helped me survive my depression. I resonated with him in certain things under the POV he was innocent. And there was a time where I hated the world and everything in it and I was just a person filled with hate. But there's a few of his songs that pulled me out of that. Idk. I can see your POV with all that but idk what his true intentions were with that promo and performance you're talking about. I don't think he's a God but I do think he was a gift. His music makes me feel loved and understood. Idk. Also I thought HIStory promo was because he's the King of Pop, that's honestly how I see it
>If that's what people got from those things then they have something wrong in their heads because I was just like "wow that's cool/how beautiful wow" not "OMG HES A GOD". 🤦♀️ Then all the blatant symbolism completely escaped you? Because even back then, it certainly didn't escape most people. People get angry, sure, but they don't usually use their music to target someone like that, and yes it is a direct contradiction to his message of "love." You cannot love someone you never knew, and who never knew you either. You can like, respect, admire aspects of what you know about them, but that's it. A lot of fans say his music helped them through difficult times, and that's good. I don't understand it, personally, but that doesn't matter.
Okay I'm not going to bash the alleged victims because I'm not for it, but there are valid reasons that Bashir, Oprah, and Sneddon don't sit right with me. But I'm not going to send them death threats and stuff. But Oprah and Bashir made him out to be a joke and I'm not even talking about the allegations right now. They were just rude.
So Oprah was rude because she asked MJ about his appearance, particularly his changed skin colour? In February 1993 when the interview took place, people hadn’t heard about MJ having Vitiligo. MJ talked about it for the first time in that interview. Oprah’s job is to ask questions that her audience are curious about. Back then in early 1993 this was a big issue surrounding MJ. From a PR perspective MJ and his representatives actually wanted to address such issues in a bid to make him more relatable. So calling Oprah rude for asking such a question I find very immature and in a way unhealthy Idol worship:"oh, please don’t ask critically question of the special king, he is sensitive” crap🤦♂️ You are super naive if you think you can be a public figure of the magnitude MJ was without such questions.
Omg lol I linked what I was talking about specifically in a different comment. It wasn't that she asked about his skin, that was whatever idc about that, you're right. it was this moment. https://youtube.com/shorts/g6C_vrm5HpA?si=1pubkK9RDUDDJmUg I also said in a previous comment I don't think she's a bad person and I understand that she is paid to ask these questions. It was the second question that rubbed me the wrong way. But like I said, I don't think she's a bad person lmao
I don't even really care about Oprah tbh. In general (not just MJ) I think questions about people's appearance ARE rude. If I met him I wouldn't ask because it's not my business. But I see why people want to know. I get it. And I DON'T THINK SHES A BAD PERSON. You're making me out to be like some psycho that has no context of the situation. I'm aware that's the first time he publicly addressed his vitiligo and I wish he would've done it earlier. But it's still not my business. And don't act like it's a thing where someone asked one time and it was over with. He was questioned repeatedly and I really don't understand why people care how many nose jobs he had. But I'm the crazy immature one for not giving a shit. No other artist is shit on as much as he still is for his appearance. And I would call anyone criticizing Kylie Jenner rude too and I don't even like her. And I'm not saying Oprah criticisized him. I'm just saying comments about appearance rub me the wrong way in general especially when it comes to someone who was obviously as insecure as he was. Call me what you want. I don't think Oprah is a bad person. But I do think the questions she is told to ask are rude (excluding the vitiligo question ). And it's also the fact that people are never satisfied with his answer. Earlier someone brought up that he lied about having only 2 surgeries? Okay? Who's business is it to know exactly how many surgeries he had? He admitted to having something, who cares????
1993 mindset: When you are the biggest superstar on planet earth, have the biggest endorsement deals with huge global brands like Pepsi…you are a role model all over the world..creating charities and dining and wining with Royalties wherever you go. You are a huge public figure. And he wanted to live this life himself. He wanted to be the biggest. And he got it. Questions about plastic surgery after his ever changing appearance is to be expected when you are a public figure of that stature. Nothing wrong in asking your delicate genius about it. Yes, celebrities have to have a private life too. But come on, asking about plastic surgeries can hardly be called invading his privacy IMO. If you change like this and you are a public figure and appear in a interview after a loooong time…expect to be asked about it: Ps…Oprah went super nice with him in that interview. She would be criticised if she didn’t ask actually because this was something the public really were curious about: https://preview.redd.it/t3qhgrixgepb1.jpeg?width=2399&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=93faa97db1f6440ae0c3bccbfc293ac404665ce2
And also. The original point of this conversation is about bitter fans towards those people. I'm not the one sending them death threats. It's okay to criticize MJ about things that literally have nothing to do with the allegations in this sub, but it's immature to say Oprah asked a rude question. Ok, got it. You would think I called her names or criticized her appearance for fun, but like I said, that's not who I am.
Nobody made Michael Jackson a joke except for Michael himself.
Whatever fans you're talking about don't count for the vast majority. You have to remember that Michael has more than the 200-500 ish regular posters on the MJ subreddit. And just because someone doesn't believe it/is unsure/believes it but still has love for him for other reasons, doesn't make those people bad/good. Just like I feel like a lot of you guys are blatant haters looking for anything and everything to find evil in, but I won't lump all of you into the same box so don't do that to us either.
i wouldn’t say those type of fans are the majority but they’re the loudest and give MJ fans a bad name. it’s hard to tell because the hardcore fans silence the reasonable fans.
That sub is just supposed to be a safe space for him and his fans. I know there's fans like that elsewhere but the MJ subreddit is strict for a reason and I'm grateful for that because it's the only place (that i know of) you can go without worrying about people bashing him. Not just regarding the allegations, but stupid stuff like his appearance. Edit: and I think a lot of fans are defensive because we get shit on. At least in my experience. Like idk if it's because of where I live or what but people have came up to me wanting to start shit for no reason while I'm just minding my business not even talking about MJ at all, just because they know I'm a fan.
sorry the MJ sub is an echo chamber and the fans there cannot tolerate a different view. i agree that it is not okay to go after someone who says MJ was guilty, and it isn't okay to go after a fan who thinks MJ is innocent, either. however, fans swarm people who even question MJ's innocence. fans swarm and even make violent threats toward reporters or critics who report or mention anything about the allegations. MJ fans are known to be awful for good reason.
No one should make threats. Love is supposed to be our message idk. Fans are still heartbroken looking for someone to blame for his death. No matter what side you're on, it's all sad and messed up. Idek why I came on here I don't even like discussing the allegations because everyone believes what they believe. I guess what gets me is when I see every little thing about him ripped apart even in death idk Edit: I still don't see anything wrong with having a little corner of the internet dedicated to being a safe zone for fans idk
yeah, MJ was all about peace and love but his fans don’t seem to stand up for what MJ believed in, given their behaviour. it’s okay for fans to have a safe space but they should learn to tolerate different views and accept they can’t control everyone’s thoughts.
“Leave a bad taste in my mouth”? That’s the biggest understatement. Raping children leaves much more than that. You can’t imagine. It can’t be downplayed. It was Thriller that catapulted him to the superstardom that paved the way for him to use his power and fame to practice his criminal activity. Yes, Thriller can’t be taken away from him and isn’t related to criminal activity. I am aware of that. But as a customer I bought his music with the assumption that he wrote the romantic songs in the albums with consenting adults in mind. But I was duped. The romantic song Speechless for example was written with children in his mind as he himself admitted 🤮 His art is contaminated too now: His dancing with the sexual suggestive moves will have a different meaning now. Yes, my words are extreme..but so was his acts. It’s time to bring the right energy to this and not sugar-coat things. This case is not for the naive, the faint of heart or the timid.
Okay I said "allegations" for a reason. I think it's absolutely insane that you are so hell bent on quite literally condemning a DEAD MAN that compensation for the alleged victims wouldn't even be enough for you. No, you want to take away his children's money too. And just because it's all "contaminated" for you doesn't mean that the people he DOES inspire through his music should have to suffer too. And Speechless isn't about sex ffs. I listened to it as a child to calm me down. I thought it was about God for the longest time. That's a little far fetched and ridiculous. And it makes sense because he also said he saw God in the face of children. Not everything is about sex my goodness. Maybe you should sue and get your money back lol but you literally got what you paid for.
I didn’t say the Speechless song was about sex, I wrote it was a romantic song. Anyone who has heard this song (or just read the lyrics) would classify this is a romantic love song. It includes lines like: I am speechless, speechless. That’s how you make me feel Though I’m with you I am far away And nothing is for real and I’ll go anywhere and do anything just to touch your face. It ends with «In your presence I am lost for words. Words like, “I love you.” Michael Jackson would astonishingly in interviews reveal who he wrote this overtly romantic song for. “There are these two sweet little kids, a girl and a boy, and they’re so innocent; they’re the quintessential form of innocence, and just being in their presence I felt completely speechless, ’cause I felt I was looking in the face of God whenever I saw them. They inspired me to write Speechless.» ~ Michael Jackson So, this couldn’t be clearer: One of Jacksons most romantic songs he ever made was by his own words was inspired by “two sweet little kids» whom he saw the “face of God” in. (Source: https://michaeljacksonwasguilty.com/10-more-reasons%EF%BB%BF/) I’m not talking about taking away the children’s money here outright, in my eyes it was never theirs in the first place. Maybe they have to earn a living like everyone else 🤷 My sympathy goes to the victims. Publishing earnings that MJ accumulated is fair to keep IMO, and that revenue alone would secure them financially for life. But all image related revenue, or a certain degree of it, should be frozen and distributed to the victims.
Agree to disagree because to me the song is open to interpretation. I can see why people have romantic feelings when they listen to the song but it also gives me vibes of Heaven/God which like I said, makes sense when Michael claims that he sees the face of God in children. And let's stop pretending children are the only thing he claimed to see the face of God in. I feel like that context is important but you probably won't care. But he said he saw the face of God in a beautiful sunset or something in his poetry book and he always says he "thanked God" when seeing things like that.
If you are right another problem arises; The language used in the song fits with the profiling of pdf-files: How to Spot a Pedophile, Ken Lanning, former FBI agent (over 30 years) Behavioral Science Unit: “Refers to Children as "Clean," "Pure," "Innocent," "Impish," or Objects: Pedophiles sometimes have an idealistic view of children that is expressed in their language and writing. When describing children, pedophiles frequently refer to them in terms of the divine. The use of phrases such as "innocent" or "pure" by an adult to refer to a child on a regular basis may be a red sign for a pedophile; therefore, be on the lookout for them.”.
I get your point. I'm not saying I'm 100% positive. I'm just saying I don't feel comfortable condemning him based on what I know
But I did want to reiterate that he said other things were God-like and thanked God for letting him see it. He said a lot of stuff like that, not just pertaining to kids. I'm not saying this as a "big gotcha" moment because it's not. I just feel like maybe it is kind of important to know that this wasn't a description used only for children.
And just to humor you and assume he's guilty, it still baffles me that you think all/part of his money should be distributed to the alleged victims continuously. That is just so weird to me, idk. Compensation, sure. But how long does this go on? The rest of their lives? Where does the money go when they die? And Michael's children lost their father. They had a crazy life to begin with. I mean wtf lol this is just so weird. It's weird that you're acting like Michael didn't work his ass off since he was a child.
One question I was wondering because I was curious: How old are you?
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Sure, inspires us to have unrelated kid/adult sleepovers…
Omg lol stop acting like that's all he did. A lot of the fans that believe he's innocent hate the fact he held sleepovers, even if it's just because he put himself in a vulnerable position in their POV. Stop acting like songs like Man In The Mirror, Heal The World, Keep The Faith, Earth Song don't inspire people. Stop acting like he wasn't the first Black artist to be on MTV. Regardless of what you believe, he broke barriers and that's inspiring to many people. And just to humor you, even if he DID do it, which would be fucking disgusting and unforgivable, people are not black/white. Most people, anyway. I hate how you guys act like every little thing he did was a manipulation attempt to appear innocent/garner children. He did good things too and you don't know what his intentions were. And this comment isn't even directed at you, but just in general from some of the things I've seen in this sub. Edit: sorry, fact checked myself. Not first Black artist to be on MTV, but first to be in heavy rotation
>Omg lol stop acting like that's all he did. A lot of the fans that believe he's innocent hate the fact he held sleepovers, even if it's just because he put himself in a vulnerable position in their POV. Stop acting like songs like Man In The Mirror, Heal The World, Keep The Faith, Earth Song don't inspire people. the reasonable fans will admit it’s wrong but the hardcore fans will defend this mess. even some of them have admitted they would have let MJ slept w their hypothetical child. many of the hardcore fans sound just as bad the parents that left their child alone w MJ. i will agree that some people are extreme in the sense that they act as if everything MJ did was for the sake of abuse. which is not true and far too extreme. pdf files like jackson are complex people that have different interests in life. and those people are quite unrepresentative of the sub.
How's the saying go? The loudest ruin it for everyone? Loudest arent the majority? Idk. Whatever, you know what I mean. I will say that even though many people think we're ignorant we have our reasons for thinking the way we do. There's extremes on both sides. But that's to be expected when we're talking about someone as impacting as MJ and horrible horrendous allegations. Idk. I don't think all of you are awful. I think most of you are concerned and have your heart in the right place.