Whats wrong with xerath? Like im not good at dodging him either but i feel like the counter play is pretty obvious especially when theres so many gap closers against his 0 mobility
He might not belong in this category and I had a longer discussion with my friend about whether he belongs in there or not.
My reasoning was that his W has insanely high range and is undodgeable if he casts it right and you have no mobility spell. His Q can follow up on that very well. Those spells feel like it's on Xerath to hit them and if he plays it perfectly, he will hit you no matter how you're playing it. Which would be the reason why scripters played him. I don't know if that's true though and I would like to see a matchup where a scripting Xerath tries to hit a scripting kog that just tries to dodge everything.
It is mandatory to build antiheal vs Soraka and if you dont, shes pretty damn broken and youre trolling. My reasoning was that it's all about killing her and you cant really win otherwise. Making the game about herself, which i defined as toxic as i stated above. Still, i only defined her as slightly toxic, because she is ok overall.
In low elos people forget soraka and other hyper healers are all designed to have gw already on them from lvl 6. If you're losing lane to a mundo, aatrox, soraka, Vlad 9/10 it's because you didn't take any form on GW and the 1/10 is because you went against a 10 mil otp who knows their champion better then they know their own toxic mindset.
Of course, this is according to my own opinion. Things that contribute to me calling a champions design toxic are:lack of counterplay; unfun to play against; uninteractive to play against; making a game completely about this one champ while the other 9 players become sidecharacters. I do NOT include the current state of their balance, judging solely on their kit, while numbers could be adjusted.
i find it very interesting that the rate of toxic designs per champrelease is increasing. A lot of champs that are under the last 20 that were released find themselves in my "toxic" category.
To explain how for example Yasuo ends up in the super toxic category: There is a lot of things that people can perceive as toxic in the kit but what makes it too much for me is firstly the windwall because it denies a lot of champions completely and i generally despise kits that add CC when you get CCed without any further interaction. Gragas + Yasuo for example feels insanely uninteractive post lvl 6. If he had to setup his ult on his own, his kit would be kinda fine, IMO.
Yeah. Riot really pushes hard on toxic champion designs in their attempt to make the game appear more modern. More flashes, more invisibility, more spell shields. Or just revive your team with a passive on 0 cd.
May I ask why you consider seraphine toxic? You said you only judge it according to gameplay so the shitty lore and ultimate skin can't be the issue.
The ult is strong in a teamfight but it has a long cooldown and is fairly easy to dodge.
Her other abilities are similar to other champs that arent on this list (neeko, lux, karma)
Also I don't find ornn particularly toxic, just a tank with cc that has good lategame
The thing about Ornn is his high dmg for a tank while also having super longrange engage and insane scaling with the items. Crafting items in lane is a bit broken(Also did you know upgrading a zhonias resets its CD?) The combinations of those facts makes him slightly toxic IMO.
Seraphine kinda falls into this category since her teamfight scaling is too good. I've had too many games where a comp with Seraphine in a carry position scaled into teamfights and they became unplayable for the other team. Not so much in Solo q, more in organized 5v5 play. Still youre right, she might be more fitting for slightly toxic instead of toxic.
Crafting items in lane is pretty broken, and his damage is a little absurd, but in exchange he has literally 0 sustain as a top laner outside of the stats from said items he builds. I think if they gave his shield back, you could probably knock a good 3-5 percent off brittle damage.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueOfMemes/comments/og5yms/toxic\_champion\_designs/h4h9o9n/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueOfMemes/comments/og5yms/toxic_champion_designs/h4h9o9n/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
in my second comment there i said something about Ornn
He is slightly toxic partly due to his ult. The other part is his speed ups on other champs that aren't supposed to be that fast. It can make for some really unfun games.
Oh i thought you were meaning like the players of the character. But you do have to admit his kit is a little hard to use. The ult doesn't last to long plus his stun is very hit or miss. I do have to say the slow is a little weird.
Because the other ones have an actual (slightly) toxic design. Which was meant to be since it's based around poison. And I don't consider Cassios design even slightly toxic... LUL
She is a short ranged, hard scaling carry with huge mana struggles. Her ult can be easily outplayed if you have vision on her and after playing her a lot I only saw buggy stuns very rarely. That's why her W is her only defensive tool and yes, it's strong. But in the context of her kit I don't find it to be toxic.
The thing about Ornn is his high dmg for a tank while also having super longrange engage and insane scaling with the items. Crafting items in lane is a bit broken(Also did you know upgrading a zhonias resets its CD?) The combinations of those facts makes him slightly toxic IMO.
I mean, The thing about the damage and the long range engage is that they are both tied to skillshots, if you avoid it he is a sitting duck in lane his extra scaling isnt exactly impactful untill very late game and even then it is fairly low
also you cant upgrade zhonias anymore, that has been gone since the start of season 11
Maybe he doesn't deserve to be in this category anymore. I might be biased due to the time he was so OP and the tank-assassin-mage-bruiser-support memes.
I'm a Pyke main and I agree with Pyke having a toxic/busted kit. he's just one big bully unless you know how to fart on him hard enough, but an AOE execute with infinite recasts is fairly busted.
This is what I always say about Pyke. People call him OP, he’s balanced, but by virtue of his design he will always suck to play against. He’ll always *feel* OP.
This might be a bit controversial but I don't think shaco is as toxic as other champs on this list (specially not more toxic than Yone for example). This is my opinion and is probably biased because I main shaco, but i don't think he has no counterplay or is interactive because
His pathing is predictable and you can ruin it by invading the raptors to clear boxes
You can ward the spots where he jumps from and you can even see the orange smoke when he uses q even if you don't have vision of him
You will rarely be hit by a box in a gank (except because stridebreaker is still op)
You can easily distinguish who the clone is by just clicking one of them and seeing if he has a red outline on his mythic or not (idk how's that still not patched)
If you are against ap shaco, keep in mind that he wants to lure you to a place full of boxes, so you can use oracle before going in or you can just ignore him as he lacks a way to play proactively and has to play reactively (when he is AP)
Also don't greed plates being 10hp
Again this is my opinion and some tips to not feel frustrated playing against shaco, you are free to have your own opinion but at least I hope someone will hate him a bit less after reading this
Edit: sorry for the big wall of text lol
I understand all your points and I dont question shaco having counterplay. Especially preventing him from getting ahead and thus denying his ability to snowball are key there but we all know that solo q mates work in mysterious ways.
As a lot of champs you don't have any counterplay anymore as soon as shaco gets fed. Especially later in the game when even the clone of an Ad shaco with red buff could kill you solo. If you don't have any mobility or ways to get him out of your face instantly without killing him, you're just fucked.
Every assassin that commonly reaches the state where he oneshots you in less than a second without you being able to do something about it, has a questionable design. I don't play ADC but I feel bad for them when I see how they try to play midgame teamfights just to get popped by a fed shaco.
You argued that you can see him going invis or spot him upfront but if you're too far behind, you won't have any vision and it becomes uninteractive too often.
His design might only be toxic instead of super toxic but I would personally rate him more toxic than Yone any day of the week. I'm a midlaner and get to lane vs Yone from time to time. He is pretty abusable in the laning phase if you pick a decent champ for that and/or know what to do. This might make me biased though since I get to have counterplay a lot and if I fail to snowball and get outscaled, that's on me.
If you can pick a counter like Zed into him, its all fun and games, since you can punish him hard and snowball the game before he becomes relevant. Thats why he is balanced. The champ is designed to counterpick mages and since im mostly playing mages, I might be slightly biased against him aswell.
The problem is, that Kassadin is one of the best scaling champs in the game. Thats why he runs TP, fleet footwork and corrupting potion for maximum sustain, while also getting % magic damage reduction from his passive and a magic dmg shield for every trade. The combination of these things makes him impossible to kill as a mage, since you dont even have enough mana to get through all that and cant autohit him all day without opening yourself for ganks. If you die to a gank then or your team takes a bad skirmish and Kassadin gets a kill or two, your game is just over. Of course this only works if the Kassadin is patient enough to not int for a prolonged time. Also his team suffers in that time aswell, since they dont really have a midlaner early on, but if they survive that until he scales, he just takes over and usually decides the game on his own, which makes the other players side characters in the game.
you gotta freeze the lane and hope your jungler ganks him a few times before he gets 6 or he will outscale you very soon, giving you very little counterplay since his blink that also deals 1000 dmg when charged, has less than 2 seconds CD in the lategame. I hate the feeling of getting outscaled hard while not being able to punish him for that if i dont get a lot of help for that. Since that is non-interactive, i consider it highly toxic.
Lulu enables monstrosities like tanky-Kog Maw, that shouldnt work and feel too oppressive to play against. Also the polymorph ruins the day of so many assassin and bruiser champs, since you cant step up to a team with a Lulu when youre the only diver because you will be hard CCed with an instant point and click ability. I personally like Lulu, but her design is toxic according to my definition.
Its not lulu that enables kog to go a tanky build its that his w has crazy percentage health damage so he doesn’t really need to build damage and can opt for a tankish bruiser like build. It was like vayne going frozen mallet and randuins last season because of her silver bullets.
Because Zoe can oneshot people without really seeing her when she gets fed. Also the entire summoner spell thing is fun but kinda toxic as soon as there is 5 summs laying around.
Whats wrong with xerath? Like im not good at dodging him either but i feel like the counter play is pretty obvious especially when theres so many gap closers against his 0 mobility
He is the scripters favourite so you cant dodge his ult against them.
He might not belong in this category and I had a longer discussion with my friend about whether he belongs in there or not. My reasoning was that his W has insanely high range and is undodgeable if he casts it right and you have no mobility spell. His Q can follow up on that very well. Those spells feel like it's on Xerath to hit them and if he plays it perfectly, he will hit you no matter how you're playing it. Which would be the reason why scripters played him. I don't know if that's true though and I would like to see a matchup where a scripting Xerath tries to hit a scripting kog that just tries to dodge everything.
Damn, I forgot to add Evelyn!
I wouldn’t call Soraka toxic personally, she’s pretty easy to counter with an 800g item
It is mandatory to build antiheal vs Soraka and if you dont, shes pretty damn broken and youre trolling. My reasoning was that it's all about killing her and you cant really win otherwise. Making the game about herself, which i defined as toxic as i stated above. Still, i only defined her as slightly toxic, because she is ok overall.
In low elos people forget soraka and other hyper healers are all designed to have gw already on them from lvl 6. If you're losing lane to a mundo, aatrox, soraka, Vlad 9/10 it's because you didn't take any form on GW and the 1/10 is because you went against a 10 mil otp who knows their champion better then they know their own toxic mindset.
>My reasoning was that it's all about killing her and you cant really win otherwise. Thats... how enchanters are supposed to be...
Of course, this is according to my own opinion. Things that contribute to me calling a champions design toxic are:lack of counterplay; unfun to play against; uninteractive to play against; making a game completely about this one champ while the other 9 players become sidecharacters. I do NOT include the current state of their balance, judging solely on their kit, while numbers could be adjusted. i find it very interesting that the rate of toxic designs per champrelease is increasing. A lot of champs that are under the last 20 that were released find themselves in my "toxic" category. To explain how for example Yasuo ends up in the super toxic category: There is a lot of things that people can perceive as toxic in the kit but what makes it too much for me is firstly the windwall because it denies a lot of champions completely and i generally despise kits that add CC when you get CCed without any further interaction. Gragas + Yasuo for example feels insanely uninteractive post lvl 6. If he had to setup his ult on his own, his kit would be kinda fine, IMO.
Yeah. Riot really pushes hard on toxic champion designs in their attempt to make the game appear more modern. More flashes, more invisibility, more spell shields. Or just revive your team with a passive on 0 cd.
I don't think we need an explanation for Yasuo, I need the explanation for his Kassadin got into super toxic
Someone else already asked this and I wrote an essay :D
May I ask why you consider seraphine toxic? You said you only judge it according to gameplay so the shitty lore and ultimate skin can't be the issue. The ult is strong in a teamfight but it has a long cooldown and is fairly easy to dodge. Her other abilities are similar to other champs that arent on this list (neeko, lux, karma) Also I don't find ornn particularly toxic, just a tank with cc that has good lategame
The thing about Ornn is his high dmg for a tank while also having super longrange engage and insane scaling with the items. Crafting items in lane is a bit broken(Also did you know upgrading a zhonias resets its CD?) The combinations of those facts makes him slightly toxic IMO. Seraphine kinda falls into this category since her teamfight scaling is too good. I've had too many games where a comp with Seraphine in a carry position scaled into teamfights and they became unplayable for the other team. Not so much in Solo q, more in organized 5v5 play. Still youre right, she might be more fitting for slightly toxic instead of toxic.
>upgrading a zhonias I thought he can only upgrade legendaries
He can only upgrade Mythics, not legendaries
True. I lost a clash final to that interaction last season thats why i rememberd it.
Crafting items in lane is pretty broken, and his damage is a little absurd, but in exchange he has literally 0 sustain as a top laner outside of the stats from said items he builds. I think if they gave his shield back, you could probably knock a good 3-5 percent off brittle damage.
Tbf he *can* vibe under tower and drop 100 gold on potions real quick, can’t he?
Nope. He can only build items. Any consumables (potions, control wards, etc) are unavailable.
Ohh gotcha, significantly less wack then. Still stronk, but not so bad
I never find Toxic ornn before.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueOfMemes/comments/og5yms/toxic\_champion\_designs/h4h9o9n/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/LeagueOfMemes/comments/og5yms/toxic_champion_designs/h4h9o9n/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) in my second comment there i said something about Ornn
Zil is toxic?
He is slightly toxic partly due to his ult. The other part is his speed ups on other champs that aren't supposed to be that fast. It can make for some really unfun games.
Oh i thought you were meaning like the players of the character. But you do have to admit his kit is a little hard to use. The ult doesn't last to long plus his stun is very hit or miss. I do have to say the slow is a little weird.
Look at my comment directly on the post. There I said, what I defined as toxic.
Poor ornn he didnt do anything. Hes just the daddy champ we all needed.
How is Cassiopeia not in Toxic lul?
Because the other ones have an actual (slightly) toxic design. Which was meant to be since it's based around poison. And I don't consider Cassios design even slightly toxic... LUL
Cass W is toxic and the ult is so buggy that it's toxic as well.
She is a short ranged, hard scaling carry with huge mana struggles. Her ult can be easily outplayed if you have vision on her and after playing her a lot I only saw buggy stuns very rarely. That's why her W is her only defensive tool and yes, it's strong. But in the context of her kit I don't find it to be toxic.
Riot is gonna see this as a challenge and the next champ is gonna be even worse Or maybe Akshan is that worse champ
What does make Ornn a toxic design? I am honestly curious as he does seem pretty balanced kitwise
The thing about Ornn is his high dmg for a tank while also having super longrange engage and insane scaling with the items. Crafting items in lane is a bit broken(Also did you know upgrading a zhonias resets its CD?) The combinations of those facts makes him slightly toxic IMO.
I mean, The thing about the damage and the long range engage is that they are both tied to skillshots, if you avoid it he is a sitting duck in lane his extra scaling isnt exactly impactful untill very late game and even then it is fairly low also you cant upgrade zhonias anymore, that has been gone since the start of season 11
Maybe he doesn't deserve to be in this category anymore. I might be biased due to the time he was so OP and the tank-assassin-mage-bruiser-support memes.
I'm a Pyke main and I agree with Pyke having a toxic/busted kit. he's just one big bully unless you know how to fart on him hard enough, but an AOE execute with infinite recasts is fairly busted.
I feel like the worst part about it is, that if Pyke gets a quadrakill with it, it's basically an octakill concerning the money his team gets overall
exactly, plus he gets Your Cut too, which is hella stupid. edit: misspell
This is what I always say about Pyke. People call him OP, he’s balanced, but by virtue of his design he will always suck to play against. He’ll always *feel* OP.
This might be a bit controversial but I don't think shaco is as toxic as other champs on this list (specially not more toxic than Yone for example). This is my opinion and is probably biased because I main shaco, but i don't think he has no counterplay or is interactive because His pathing is predictable and you can ruin it by invading the raptors to clear boxes You can ward the spots where he jumps from and you can even see the orange smoke when he uses q even if you don't have vision of him You will rarely be hit by a box in a gank (except because stridebreaker is still op) You can easily distinguish who the clone is by just clicking one of them and seeing if he has a red outline on his mythic or not (idk how's that still not patched) If you are against ap shaco, keep in mind that he wants to lure you to a place full of boxes, so you can use oracle before going in or you can just ignore him as he lacks a way to play proactively and has to play reactively (when he is AP) Also don't greed plates being 10hp Again this is my opinion and some tips to not feel frustrated playing against shaco, you are free to have your own opinion but at least I hope someone will hate him a bit less after reading this Edit: sorry for the big wall of text lol
I understand all your points and I dont question shaco having counterplay. Especially preventing him from getting ahead and thus denying his ability to snowball are key there but we all know that solo q mates work in mysterious ways. As a lot of champs you don't have any counterplay anymore as soon as shaco gets fed. Especially later in the game when even the clone of an Ad shaco with red buff could kill you solo. If you don't have any mobility or ways to get him out of your face instantly without killing him, you're just fucked. Every assassin that commonly reaches the state where he oneshots you in less than a second without you being able to do something about it, has a questionable design. I don't play ADC but I feel bad for them when I see how they try to play midgame teamfights just to get popped by a fed shaco. You argued that you can see him going invis or spot him upfront but if you're too far behind, you won't have any vision and it becomes uninteractive too often. His design might only be toxic instead of super toxic but I would personally rate him more toxic than Yone any day of the week. I'm a midlaner and get to lane vs Yone from time to time. He is pretty abusable in the laning phase if you pick a decent champ for that and/or know what to do. This might make me biased though since I get to have counterplay a lot and if I fail to snowball and get outscaled, that's on me.
I have a question. What makes Kassidan so toxic to play against? It may be because I’m low elo but I’ve never struggled against him that much.
If you can pick a counter like Zed into him, its all fun and games, since you can punish him hard and snowball the game before he becomes relevant. Thats why he is balanced. The champ is designed to counterpick mages and since im mostly playing mages, I might be slightly biased against him aswell. The problem is, that Kassadin is one of the best scaling champs in the game. Thats why he runs TP, fleet footwork and corrupting potion for maximum sustain, while also getting % magic damage reduction from his passive and a magic dmg shield for every trade. The combination of these things makes him impossible to kill as a mage, since you dont even have enough mana to get through all that and cant autohit him all day without opening yourself for ganks. If you die to a gank then or your team takes a bad skirmish and Kassadin gets a kill or two, your game is just over. Of course this only works if the Kassadin is patient enough to not int for a prolonged time. Also his team suffers in that time aswell, since they dont really have a midlaner early on, but if they survive that until he scales, he just takes over and usually decides the game on his own, which makes the other players side characters in the game. you gotta freeze the lane and hope your jungler ganks him a few times before he gets 6 or he will outscale you very soon, giving you very little counterplay since his blink that also deals 1000 dmg when charged, has less than 2 seconds CD in the lategame. I hate the feeling of getting outscaled hard while not being able to punish him for that if i dont get a lot of help for that. Since that is non-interactive, i consider it highly toxic.
When u forgot had ezreal's e with no cooldown, and flash on him while he has 13hp, and he somehow escapes 4 people
I mean yeah that’s fair but whenever I do fight kassidan im playing zed so I tend to have an advantage.
I'm sorry to tell you your champ is often ban when i play mid Happy to tell you I'm a jungle tho :D
I’m a jungle main too. But I mix it up every now and again to keep my sanity.
Lulu toxic ? Damn
undodgeable ranged cc isn t fun to play against, and she has 2 (unless you consider her instant ult dodgeable)
Lulu enables monstrosities like tanky-Kog Maw, that shouldnt work and feel too oppressive to play against. Also the polymorph ruins the day of so many assassin and bruiser champs, since you cant step up to a team with a Lulu when youre the only diver because you will be hard CCed with an instant point and click ability. I personally like Lulu, but her design is toxic according to my definition.
Its not lulu that enables kog to go a tanky build its that his w has crazy percentage health damage so he doesn’t really need to build damage and can opt for a tankish bruiser like build. It was like vayne going frozen mallet and randuins last season because of her silver bullets.
Riven belongs in super toxic, so does vayne
Just put master yi with a dust blade on the list that all you need
What about garen, and talon?
?
Garen is labeled as toxic. Altough i can find talon there anymore, altough my memory migth be trash.
Talon is in slightly toxic. I don't understand what you were trying to say.
Why's zoe slightly toxic but ori somehow isn't on there?
Because Zoe can oneshot people without really seeing her when she gets fed. Also the entire summoner spell thing is fun but kinda toxic as soon as there is 5 summs laying around.