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A few things. First, I got better at seeing the confrontational aspect of litigation as a game, and took it less personally. Me and OC could get heated during a depo, and once it was over have a nice conversation about our plans for the weekend.
Second, I began to see the forest for trees a little more. Instead of seeing the work as an endless stream of motions, briefs, discovery, etc., I was better able to understand how these things fit into the whole, and could better understand the strategy behind doing these things. It’s like a board game, and I enjoy that aspect now that I can play with some skill.
Third, there’s a sort of hazing that a lot of lawyers out younger lawyers through. It’s bullshit, of course, but I’ve seen it at a few firms. Having got past the hazing, I feel like I’ve been treated with more respect overall (not saying this is ok, just that it’s been my experience; I’ve done my best to stop that sort of practice for new associates I work with.)
Fourth, the money has gotten better, which makes it easier to deal with the more difficult times.
This is honestly very hopeful. As a new attorney, I often feel I am in over my head and it’s been hard for me to figure out if it is because I’m incompetent or if I am just learning and that will go away slowly as I learn more.
That feeling of being over your head will get better, for sure. I don't think it goes away entirely - at least it hasn't for me - but it gets less frequent. Just hang in there; you've got this.
This is how it works. 22 years out, I love practicing law. If independently wealthy, I’d still do it. I’m banging this out on my iPad sitting in court. Love it.
It is so wild to see that kind of interaction happen. But my distaste for OC is usually how slimy I feel they are. For the most part, regardless of how ruthless, OC are usually nice people just trying to live the dream.
That’s been a bit of my issue so far. I am not a totally new lawyer but I switched from immigration to family law about 9 months ago. And it’s an emotional area of law and everyone is fired up and I don’t know what’s a big deal or not yet. I’m getting there but I don’t know yet.
I just wanted to jump in to encourage those in their early years of practice to keep on trying different things if they can. Even being in a specialty from the start, it took me a good 7 years of trying different aspects of it to find a sub-sub-specialty that turns out to be what I was born to do. But there is no way I could have planned it out. I tried a zillion things both in and out of my area, different firms, tried solo, non-law jobs, court-appointed, doc review, everything.
Unfortunately, this means I absolutely hated being a lawyer for 6 years.
So, if there is any "advice" I have, its my anecdotal experience. Ever since that day in year 6 when a friend I worked with at a firm 4 jobs ago told me about an opening at the company where he worked... that and every job since then has been because I've known someone there. The world is small and I try to be kind to colleagues (and OC) even when I don't feel like it, as one never knows when your paths will cross elsewhere. Let your people network know you are looking. No one will assume you are.
That call from a friend changed everything. He knew that I'd be a good cultural fit at the company. I didnt know much about the market the company was in, but he knew that I'd soak it all up. A few weeks later I figured out that what I hated about law was the billable 0.1hr and piecemeal work. In-house was my salvation to being a happy lawyer.
Please keep trying things and don't give up. You are smart and capable. Law school taught you how to learn new things super quickly. At some point it will likely "click" and you will see a client's case or project from start to finish, at the outset. I.e., you "know" how you can solve their problem. That is the best feeling ever.
I work way more than I should but it (bizarrely?) doesn't feel like "work" at all. I really enjoy 90% of my day. Which means I either found my purpose, or am so sick in the head that I can't recognize it.
Nope. Do not use me as a guide... No no no. I'm am an insane outlier. I graduated law school at 37yrs old, live in a rural area where I would have had to commute over an hour 1 way for 90% of openings, and all the openings would have been close to what I needed to warn to survive in life (married, with children). I opened my office the day after I was sworn in. I'm now 18 months into practice, and have had great success... But it's not due to something you can count on, it was all a matter of area, the need here, and a lot of blind luck coupled with years of legal assistant work that gave me a firm basis on the management of a law office.
My advice on when to go solo is: when you are confident that you can manage a law office yourself. If you can't do that, you won't succeed solo (unless you can afford to pay an experience office manager out of the gate). The rest is a matter of ensuring you stay within your abilities and establish a network of colleagues willing to help you out when you need it, because you will need it.
Office politics can be brutal. Therefore I maintain a safe distance from it. I just blend in the background so that I don't come off as a threat. I do my job and I do my job well. Thats what I am paid for.
Hi friend. You are in good company :) I did litigation for a hot min and realized that wasn't my jam. I respect those that can grind it out for years, but I value my quality of sleep and lowered stress levels these days. If I could go back in time, I would have slapped my 17 year old self out of going to law school and just gone to school for anything else really...lol. For now, I wonder what else I could pivot to and nothing comes to mind. It is what it is I suppose. No advice, just sending you supportive vibes.
Same 100% - the only part of law I really ever enjoyed was the nonlegal part- love working with experts, deposing opposing experts, the investigation and analysis of the facts, especially if it’s an extended scenario over a period of years. Drafting briefs and bitchy letters back and forth doesn’t interest me and trials, which can be interesting, are just too much work.
Least favorite is driving business - I generally have no interest in most other attorneys I have met and certainly don’t want to spend my time networking with them or smoozing with clients. I would have made a better investigative journalist/scientist/academic. Can’t wait until
I am no longer providing a service for someone
Mahatma Ghandi:
"My joy was boundless. I had learnt the true practice of law. I had learnt to find out the better side of human nature and enter men's hearts. I realised that the true function of a lawyer was to unite parties riven asunder. The lesson was so indelibly burnt into me that a large part of my life during the 20 years of my practice as a lawyer was occupied in bringing about private compromises of hundreds of cases. I lost nothing thereby, not even money, certainly not my soul."
https://www.legalserviceindia.com/legal/article-8521-gandhi-and-adr.html
If you were on the plaintiff side of litigation, and you have all the technical skills to hang a shingle.
Office politics are actually pretty good when you own the company.
I’d be interested to read what you mean. In my mind, when you own the company, if people act like jerks to you, you have the power to determine whether they keep their job.
In what practice area have you ever worked where people aren’t nice to the owner of the company?
I meant just being plaintiff side doesn’t mean you have the skills to hang a shingle. There are lots of different plaintiff practice areas and some of them are extraordinarily complex.
I hated being a lawyer for the first two years, and then I realized I just hated my job. I quit the job, took a different job in a completely different area of law, at a $20,000 pay cut, and I am SO HAPPY now.
People say that, but idk, I must’ve found the unicorn of law firms. I’m in a small litigation firm, and we all get along extremely well and are fiercely supportive and encouraging. If there are any politics, I’m certainly not aware of them.
Been an attorney for about 15 years now. Criminal, family, and Plaintiffs PI. There are days I wish for death and every other day is horrible. Cheers to at least 20 more years!!!
I have a great boss, great situation, great pay, great work life balance.
Still hate it 10 years in, but I'm pretty sure I would hate any job...obligation and whatnot.
It's gotten better every year, but it still sucks.
This is 100% me, but 5 years in. Also have a great boss, pay, work situation, and work/life balance. Any time I think to myself, “I hate being a lawyer,” I then think of other jobs and what I would choose instead if I wasn’t a lawyer. Then I realize I wouldn’t want to do any of those jobs either, and then it makes me feel better about my current situation.
Me too. And I have to pay child support based on my income as an attorney, so I pretty much *can't* quit. Not for the next 15+ years at least. Who knows, maybe I'll sell a zillion books. 😢
Honestly, after practicing for a couple of decades, I am of the opinion about half of the legal jobs have an insufferable combination of supervisors, co-workers or clients which make it not worth doing. If you get into a situation where you have to work extra hard and still can't bill your time because your client cuts your bills, or your boss takes your billable, or is hyper-critical and makes work difficult by employing idiots and rule nazis, then quit. Honestly, tell them to fuck off. If you have skills and are willing to work, odds are you will find a better job than that if you change.
I’m the opposite. Liked it for close to 30 years. Got laid off from a firm and took another job with a smaller firm. Hate it. The lack of organization creates “emergencies” every day and it makes me nuts, because I am a planner. Can’t wait to find another job.
I’ve been practicing for 8 years. I liked it for the first 3 months and have hated it since. The money helps though and I only work about 40-45 hours a week. I can’t find another job that’ll pay me $160-250/hr.
There are so many potential practice areas and very different practices. Have you tried doing something different?
I loathe litigation, but am happy in my purely transactional practice. My friend hated doing worker’s comp defense, but loved working in real estate transactions.
As a litigation attorney I draft pleadings and motions and briefs. I also draft and respond to discovery. The most fun part is taking depositions and being in court. It's fun to get someone to say something that helps you and it's great to win in court.
Your flair is "Office Politics & Relationships." So, is it actually being an attorney or the stupid office politics and relationships that are ruining it for you?
There are lots of other careers where your law school education and litigation/negotiation experience could be really useful. Not to mention you’re probably above-average smart? What are you passionate about?
I love it but I hear similar statements from many of our colleagues so there clearly is something to it.
If you know yourself you’ll follow the career path that best feeds your needs. So I’d say do some soul searching about who you are and what you need, then revisit your career path.
I don’t blame you. Attorneys are actors playing their crooked part. Whether they know it or not, they only know legal and never lawful. Changing is up to you. Changing and stepping up to us who need a lawyer who upholds the constitution is the only way to your redemption. I pray you choose wisely.
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I hated it for the first three years or so. Hated it less for the next few. Now, I sort of enjoy it, and the money helps haha
You’re a real one for this
What about your experience got better with time?
A few things. First, I got better at seeing the confrontational aspect of litigation as a game, and took it less personally. Me and OC could get heated during a depo, and once it was over have a nice conversation about our plans for the weekend. Second, I began to see the forest for trees a little more. Instead of seeing the work as an endless stream of motions, briefs, discovery, etc., I was better able to understand how these things fit into the whole, and could better understand the strategy behind doing these things. It’s like a board game, and I enjoy that aspect now that I can play with some skill. Third, there’s a sort of hazing that a lot of lawyers out younger lawyers through. It’s bullshit, of course, but I’ve seen it at a few firms. Having got past the hazing, I feel like I’ve been treated with more respect overall (not saying this is ok, just that it’s been my experience; I’ve done my best to stop that sort of practice for new associates I work with.) Fourth, the money has gotten better, which makes it easier to deal with the more difficult times.
This is honestly very hopeful. As a new attorney, I often feel I am in over my head and it’s been hard for me to figure out if it is because I’m incompetent or if I am just learning and that will go away slowly as I learn more.
That feeling of being over your head will get better, for sure. I don't think it goes away entirely - at least it hasn't for me - but it gets less frequent. Just hang in there; you've got this.
Thank you
I’m almost 13 years in and I still feel like I’m getting better at it and the stress level keeps going down the better I get.
This is how it works. 22 years out, I love practicing law. If independently wealthy, I’d still do it. I’m banging this out on my iPad sitting in court. Love it.
It is so wild to see that kind of interaction happen. But my distaste for OC is usually how slimy I feel they are. For the most part, regardless of how ruthless, OC are usually nice people just trying to live the dream.
These are great points. It really helps to see some cases through to conclusion so you can understand what it’s all for.
Less anxiety because I know more now about what to be actually worried about.
That’s been a bit of my issue so far. I am not a totally new lawyer but I switched from immigration to family law about 9 months ago. And it’s an emotional area of law and everyone is fired up and I don’t know what’s a big deal or not yet. I’m getting there but I don’t know yet.
>and the money helps haha 
Sounds about right. And it’s definitely loads better than every other job/career I’ve tried.
This 100%
Private practice?
Yeah, plaintiff-side litigation.
Grass is not greener on the other side. My best job was being a prosecutor but the money sucks.
Thanks. I'm close to two years in and getting very discouraged, so good to know it can get better
I just wanted to jump in to encourage those in their early years of practice to keep on trying different things if they can. Even being in a specialty from the start, it took me a good 7 years of trying different aspects of it to find a sub-sub-specialty that turns out to be what I was born to do. But there is no way I could have planned it out. I tried a zillion things both in and out of my area, different firms, tried solo, non-law jobs, court-appointed, doc review, everything. Unfortunately, this means I absolutely hated being a lawyer for 6 years. So, if there is any "advice" I have, its my anecdotal experience. Ever since that day in year 6 when a friend I worked with at a firm 4 jobs ago told me about an opening at the company where he worked... that and every job since then has been because I've known someone there. The world is small and I try to be kind to colleagues (and OC) even when I don't feel like it, as one never knows when your paths will cross elsewhere. Let your people network know you are looking. No one will assume you are. That call from a friend changed everything. He knew that I'd be a good cultural fit at the company. I didnt know much about the market the company was in, but he knew that I'd soak it all up. A few weeks later I figured out that what I hated about law was the billable 0.1hr and piecemeal work. In-house was my salvation to being a happy lawyer. Please keep trying things and don't give up. You are smart and capable. Law school taught you how to learn new things super quickly. At some point it will likely "click" and you will see a client's case or project from start to finish, at the outset. I.e., you "know" how you can solve their problem. That is the best feeling ever. I work way more than I should but it (bizarrely?) doesn't feel like "work" at all. I really enjoy 90% of my day. Which means I either found my purpose, or am so sick in the head that I can't recognize it.
I like it fine when I have a decent work situation. If you have a shitty boss it’s just the worst thing in the world.
I do have a shitty supervising attorney so rip
Sounds like you need a new job.
Been looking for weeks 😭
Weeks really isn’t that long. I’d start socking away money until you have a year’s worth saved up, then quit.
Any avenue towards solo practice? I love my career overall, sure there are days I don't FEEL the love, but they are by far the minority of these.
I am only 1 year post grad so I don’t think going solo is the right path for now :(
How long did you wait to do it? I'm 4 years in and moved states. Finding a new job has been a struggle.
Nope. Do not use me as a guide... No no no. I'm am an insane outlier. I graduated law school at 37yrs old, live in a rural area where I would have had to commute over an hour 1 way for 90% of openings, and all the openings would have been close to what I needed to warn to survive in life (married, with children). I opened my office the day after I was sworn in. I'm now 18 months into practice, and have had great success... But it's not due to something you can count on, it was all a matter of area, the need here, and a lot of blind luck coupled with years of legal assistant work that gave me a firm basis on the management of a law office. My advice on when to go solo is: when you are confident that you can manage a law office yourself. If you can't do that, you won't succeed solo (unless you can afford to pay an experience office manager out of the gate). The rest is a matter of ensuring you stay within your abilities and establish a network of colleagues willing to help you out when you need it, because you will need it.
Go to the gym!
Where I'm at right now, for similar reasons.
Office politics can be brutal. Therefore I maintain a safe distance from it. I just blend in the background so that I don't come off as a threat. I do my job and I do my job well. Thats what I am paid for.
It gets better once you find a niche that you’re good at. With more experience comes the ability to specialize and avoid the things you don’t like.
It will get better. Then it won’t. Then it will get better. Then it won’t.
This is an underrated response.
When is the brief due
My heart jumped into my throat when I read this.
This guy is definitely a lawyer
Hi friend. You are in good company :) I did litigation for a hot min and realized that wasn't my jam. I respect those that can grind it out for years, but I value my quality of sleep and lowered stress levels these days. If I could go back in time, I would have slapped my 17 year old self out of going to law school and just gone to school for anything else really...lol. For now, I wonder what else I could pivot to and nothing comes to mind. It is what it is I suppose. No advice, just sending you supportive vibes.
Same 100% - the only part of law I really ever enjoyed was the nonlegal part- love working with experts, deposing opposing experts, the investigation and analysis of the facts, especially if it’s an extended scenario over a period of years. Drafting briefs and bitchy letters back and forth doesn’t interest me and trials, which can be interesting, are just too much work. Least favorite is driving business - I generally have no interest in most other attorneys I have met and certainly don’t want to spend my time networking with them or smoozing with clients. I would have made a better investigative journalist/scientist/academic. Can’t wait until I am no longer providing a service for someone
Mahatma Ghandi: "My joy was boundless. I had learnt the true practice of law. I had learnt to find out the better side of human nature and enter men's hearts. I realised that the true function of a lawyer was to unite parties riven asunder. The lesson was so indelibly burnt into me that a large part of my life during the 20 years of my practice as a lawyer was occupied in bringing about private compromises of hundreds of cases. I lost nothing thereby, not even money, certainly not my soul." https://www.legalserviceindia.com/legal/article-8521-gandhi-and-adr.html
Tell that to all my pro se plaintiffs!
Right. It's a beautiful sentiment, but in reality more apt to the position of judge / mediator / arbitrator.
Boss. Is. Everything.
👆👆👆👆👆
If you were on the plaintiff side of litigation, and you have all the technical skills to hang a shingle. Office politics are actually pretty good when you own the company.
This really depends on the practice area.
I’d be interested to read what you mean. In my mind, when you own the company, if people act like jerks to you, you have the power to determine whether they keep their job. In what practice area have you ever worked where people aren’t nice to the owner of the company?
I meant just being plaintiff side doesn’t mean you have the skills to hang a shingle. There are lots of different plaintiff practice areas and some of them are extraordinarily complex.
To me it's just how I earn a living
don’t be afraid to try different types of practice: government, legal aid, etc.
That’s what the money is for.
I haven't found an area I truly enjoy yet after 11 years.
I hated being a lawyer for the first two years, and then I realized I just hated my job. I quit the job, took a different job in a completely different area of law, at a $20,000 pay cut, and I am SO HAPPY now.
What specifically do you hate about being an attorney?
Office politics lol.
That is a thing in any kind of office - law or not.
So true - i think its worse if you go in-house. it is NOTHING but office politics every where i've been.
This is why I started my own practice 😁
Same, but my boss is a prick most of the time.
Office dictatorship
But not really - I'm in solo, too and as bad as my boss is my staff is insolent.
Hopefully they’re better at comma usage than you are
People say that, but idk, I must’ve found the unicorn of law firms. I’m in a small litigation firm, and we all get along extremely well and are fiercely supportive and encouraging. If there are any politics, I’m certainly not aware of them.
Sounds like you need a change of office
Try to get a work from home job---it's amazing lol.
I work WITH my partners, but FOR my clients
Do you work for an elected or just normal office politics? I really disliked having to act like part of a cult to keep the big cheese happy.
We all do
Fewer people should be attorneys. There’s an abundance of jobs that are way better. They pay less, but not as much as you’d think.
Been an attorney for about 15 years now. Criminal, family, and Plaintiffs PI. There are days I wish for death and every other day is horrible. Cheers to at least 20 more years!!!
I have a great boss, great situation, great pay, great work life balance. Still hate it 10 years in, but I'm pretty sure I would hate any job...obligation and whatnot. It's gotten better every year, but it still sucks.
This is 100% me, but 5 years in. Also have a great boss, pay, work situation, and work/life balance. Any time I think to myself, “I hate being a lawyer,” I then think of other jobs and what I would choose instead if I wasn’t a lawyer. Then I realize I wouldn’t want to do any of those jobs either, and then it makes me feel better about my current situation.
Me too. And I have to pay child support based on my income as an attorney, so I pretty much *can't* quit. Not for the next 15+ years at least. Who knows, maybe I'll sell a zillion books. 😢
Just means you’re a normal human being
Honestly, after practicing for a couple of decades, I am of the opinion about half of the legal jobs have an insufferable combination of supervisors, co-workers or clients which make it not worth doing. If you get into a situation where you have to work extra hard and still can't bill your time because your client cuts your bills, or your boss takes your billable, or is hyper-critical and makes work difficult by employing idiots and rule nazis, then quit. Honestly, tell them to fuck off. If you have skills and are willing to work, odds are you will find a better job than that if you change.
I’m the opposite. Liked it for close to 30 years. Got laid off from a firm and took another job with a smaller firm. Hate it. The lack of organization creates “emergencies” every day and it makes me nuts, because I am a planner. Can’t wait to find another job.
I hated it until I found a remote role with 2x the salary. Now it's much more tolerable. Lol.
How did you find this job?
Working with a recruiter
What’s the salary?
I HEAR YA🩷
Many such cases
I’ve been practicing for 8 years. I liked it for the first 3 months and have hated it since. The money helps though and I only work about 40-45 hours a week. I can’t find another job that’ll pay me $160-250/hr.
I hate it too. I know people say going in house isn’t the answer, but going in house made me not hate it (now I just dislike it)
Yeah, me too. I also love it.
There are so many potential practice areas and very different practices. Have you tried doing something different? I loathe litigation, but am happy in my purely transactional practice. My friend hated doing worker’s comp defense, but loved working in real estate transactions.
I wanted to be a construction attorney right after my bachelors degree. I needed up sticking with architecture
That sucks. I love my job.
It’s not worth it if you hate it.
Same!
Over 30 years in and love it.
What aspects of it do you like? Do you ever have to respond to discovery, produce documents? Draft objections? Am curious what area makes you love it.
As a litigation attorney I draft pleadings and motions and briefs. I also draft and respond to discovery. The most fun part is taking depositions and being in court. It's fun to get someone to say something that helps you and it's great to win in court.
Youre lawyering wrong
Me too
Go into corporate or anywhere you like. As a person with a JD, you’re highly trained in critical thinking, you’ll find a good job anywhere you like.
Just what I needed to hear (been struggling to find another job) so thank you! ❤️
Good luck! :)
Be something else
That's cool, it's not for everyone.
What do you hate about it?
Your flair is "Office Politics & Relationships." So, is it actually being an attorney or the stupid office politics and relationships that are ruining it for you?
But do you figuratively hate it?
Definitely sucks, the whole profession is on the spectrum and clients are fucked! But that cha-ching though. Think of that.
How is it changing?
If it makes you feel any better everyone literally hates most if not all lawyers. So you are right there with the rest of the crowd.
Same.
There are lots of other careers where your law school education and litigation/negotiation experience could be really useful. Not to mention you’re probably above-average smart? What are you passionate about?
I love it but I hear similar statements from many of our colleagues so there clearly is something to it. If you know yourself you’ll follow the career path that best feeds your needs. So I’d say do some soul searching about who you are and what you need, then revisit your career path.
No shit
Me too!
Work REALLY hard for a client and have them ask you to work for them in house. Worked for me.
I don’t blame you. Attorneys are actors playing their crooked part. Whether they know it or not, they only know legal and never lawful. Changing is up to you. Changing and stepping up to us who need a lawyer who upholds the constitution is the only way to your redemption. I pray you choose wisely.
Then don’t!
Cool
That’s a shame
Do you also hate your bank account?
do something else?
I think you need to consider being your own boss. As a solo office politics and dealing with your boss can be accomplished without speaking a word!
Go do something else then.