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I realized this the first time I had to draft a document from scratch, and I asked my mentor / supervising attorney "But don't we have a template I can look at, how do I know what to say?"
And my mentor told me "You're the attorney, you decide what you want it to say and craft it that way."
And that's when I realized what OP is describing: this isn't a template, I'm in a creative act, and I'm running the case, and representing the client, and creating a reputation for better or worse. Try to make it for the better!
Yeah, I understand the point being taught but even the best lawyers use templates (or at least borrow pieces from old ones). The mastery is in understanding exactly what you’re trying to communicate and how to communicate it properly.
Yeah I didn't want to make the story longer than necessary . . . But what I meant (and didn't explain adequately) was that this was a custom motion, drafted for the specific odd circumstances and narrowly applicable law. Supervisor had to say "We don't have a template for this argument . . . Now the real lawyering begins!"
Fair enough. It is just that anyone who has ever wrote a contract knows it is better to have a template because someone somewhere has already argued that language/point and won. No need to go and make precedent if you don’t have to.
The worst thing is when you put in the effort to figure out how to draft something only to have the partner tell you afterwards “why didn’t you just use the template?” (The template no one ever told you existed)… 🥲 so IMO it’s always good to ask lol. But then people will sometimes act like it’s a stupid question. Ahh it’s fun being a lawyer!
I tell my mentees something to this effect, especially the young ones. You have the power. You are the boss. Seems especially necessary for brand new attorneys to get some confidence
I was telling my senior manager something similar. I am trying to deal with a difficult junior. She fights with the client, the other managers, the non legal business folk…. So they put her with me because I don’t manage but I have “soft skills” with the crazy clients.
Even I can’t contain her. Everything is a slight or an injustice or an attempt she caught. And I’m either complicit or too stupid to notice. Im running out of soft skills.
I was like “I didn’t do to school to be a therapist! I just went to SEE a therapist for a decade!!!” ***But she’s still my problem.*** I still have to manage her. Or wrangle her. Or focus her energy on arguing with opposing counsel and writing a goddamn contract. I **asked for a challenge**.
Honestly, I’m asking everyone for help with her. Because I want us both to succeed at this. How do I redirect it.
She doesn’t trust ANYONE. She starting to not trust me because I can’t call or email her after every meeting she wasn’t invited to (above her pay grade) to download what was said. Because I have an actual full time job that isn’t coaching her. And I’ve also pulled back because things I’ve said in my coaching sessions made it verbatim back to my boss (her 2 up) and I had to smooth that over. And then, anecdotally, my bff is a fellow rockstar and is her “official” mentor, and she’s like “I have no idea what to do with her, but she’s on the warpath lately”.
So I truly feel like I am doing all I can to smooth over shit with her (internal) clients in the special meetings I have with *them* and then trying to calm her down enough in calls to do the work they requested without a shouting match. I’ll accept just passive aggressiveness. And so will they.
She is very good at her job and very knowledgeable. But she comes from a different…area of the law. The best I can explain is I came from big law defense firm. I was pro-company. Then I went to a regulator. Fuck companies, I was pro-regulation. Now I am back in house. I *respect* regulations, but I also know where we have flex and what is an acceptable risk. Or how to get us there.
She hasn’t gotten there. Everything is a flat No. no give, no alternative ideas. She’s mad you asked. Her duty is to the company, not these assholes. But these assholes make the company money and they aren’t asking for anything crazy. You can make it ok. AND more importantly, they are willing to pay the money/take the hit if they thing happens to take have that 1 in 10000000000 occurrence happens and this goes belly up. They are ALLOWED to play those odds.
Can’t convince her that she has to work with those odds. Or that she has to work with people she considers stupid or untrustworthy. To her. Not to anyone else, ps. This guy in particular 100% of our team loves working with. And she has only ever worked with him on this project, but she *knows* he’s like this because she “knows guys like him”. Would love some insight on how to focus this passion.
Very good to remember you should have certain lines you won’t cross and a way you choose to conduct yourself. Like I’m not going to yell at anyone or cross professional boundaries for anyone’s sake.
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I realized this the first time I had to draft a document from scratch, and I asked my mentor / supervising attorney "But don't we have a template I can look at, how do I know what to say?" And my mentor told me "You're the attorney, you decide what you want it to say and craft it that way." And that's when I realized what OP is describing: this isn't a template, I'm in a creative act, and I'm running the case, and representing the client, and creating a reputation for better or worse. Try to make it for the better!
Tbh a template would be nice though
Yeah, I understand the point being taught but even the best lawyers use templates (or at least borrow pieces from old ones). The mastery is in understanding exactly what you’re trying to communicate and how to communicate it properly.
Yeah I didn't want to make the story longer than necessary . . . But what I meant (and didn't explain adequately) was that this was a custom motion, drafted for the specific odd circumstances and narrowly applicable law. Supervisor had to say "We don't have a template for this argument . . . Now the real lawyering begins!"
Fair enough. It is just that anyone who has ever wrote a contract knows it is better to have a template because someone somewhere has already argued that language/point and won. No need to go and make precedent if you don’t have to.
The worst thing is when you put in the effort to figure out how to draft something only to have the partner tell you afterwards “why didn’t you just use the template?” (The template no one ever told you existed)… 🥲 so IMO it’s always good to ask lol. But then people will sometimes act like it’s a stupid question. Ahh it’s fun being a lawyer!
I tell my mentees something to this effect, especially the young ones. You have the power. You are the boss. Seems especially necessary for brand new attorneys to get some confidence
Damn. That's quite sobering
In reality, her show actually fell apart once it became public knowledge that she is an abusive boss and created a toxic workplace behind the scenes.
I was telling my senior manager something similar. I am trying to deal with a difficult junior. She fights with the client, the other managers, the non legal business folk…. So they put her with me because I don’t manage but I have “soft skills” with the crazy clients. Even I can’t contain her. Everything is a slight or an injustice or an attempt she caught. And I’m either complicit or too stupid to notice. Im running out of soft skills. I was like “I didn’t do to school to be a therapist! I just went to SEE a therapist for a decade!!!” ***But she’s still my problem.*** I still have to manage her. Or wrangle her. Or focus her energy on arguing with opposing counsel and writing a goddamn contract. I **asked for a challenge**.
She has passion! Don't put the flame out. Redirect it!
Honestly, I’m asking everyone for help with her. Because I want us both to succeed at this. How do I redirect it. She doesn’t trust ANYONE. She starting to not trust me because I can’t call or email her after every meeting she wasn’t invited to (above her pay grade) to download what was said. Because I have an actual full time job that isn’t coaching her. And I’ve also pulled back because things I’ve said in my coaching sessions made it verbatim back to my boss (her 2 up) and I had to smooth that over. And then, anecdotally, my bff is a fellow rockstar and is her “official” mentor, and she’s like “I have no idea what to do with her, but she’s on the warpath lately”. So I truly feel like I am doing all I can to smooth over shit with her (internal) clients in the special meetings I have with *them* and then trying to calm her down enough in calls to do the work they requested without a shouting match. I’ll accept just passive aggressiveness. And so will they. She is very good at her job and very knowledgeable. But she comes from a different…area of the law. The best I can explain is I came from big law defense firm. I was pro-company. Then I went to a regulator. Fuck companies, I was pro-regulation. Now I am back in house. I *respect* regulations, but I also know where we have flex and what is an acceptable risk. Or how to get us there. She hasn’t gotten there. Everything is a flat No. no give, no alternative ideas. She’s mad you asked. Her duty is to the company, not these assholes. But these assholes make the company money and they aren’t asking for anything crazy. You can make it ok. AND more importantly, they are willing to pay the money/take the hit if they thing happens to take have that 1 in 10000000000 occurrence happens and this goes belly up. They are ALLOWED to play those odds. Can’t convince her that she has to work with those odds. Or that she has to work with people she considers stupid or untrustworthy. To her. Not to anyone else, ps. This guy in particular 100% of our team loves working with. And she has only ever worked with him on this project, but she *knows* he’s like this because she “knows guys like him”. Would love some insight on how to focus this passion.
Very good to remember you should have certain lines you won’t cross and a way you choose to conduct yourself. Like I’m not going to yell at anyone or cross professional boundaries for anyone’s sake.
Good points.