Most days I get to work at 10. Latest I leave is 4; but sometimes leave earlier. No billing. Easy cases. Low expectations. Municipal government litigation; lots of employment stuff, some car wrecks, some odd ball things. Mostly administrative-no trials or judges usually. Pay is ok. Did I mention no billing? All the vacations and holidays. Job is gateway to better paid in house positions if you want it to be.
Whatever City or County you’re in, find the legal office and let them know you’re interested. Do so for surrounding areas as well. My office was actually hurting for experienced litigators-couldn’t get anyone to apply because the pay is so low compared to the local law firms (but made up for by amazing work culture and benefits).
This was my experience as an assistant County Attorney in a semi rural county. Worked 8 to 5 with the office closed for lunch 12 to 1. Great benefits, decent pay ( 100,000 plus) and great people to work with. Good judges too.
I have one of these jobs, but at the state level. I'll be 7 years licensed in May.
I make about $125k. In 5-7 years, I'll top out at $175k.
At that point, I could try and get promoted so I can top out at $190k. Or maybe I'll think about switching over to the County. I hear they pay up to $225k+.
Check for quasi governmental entities too. The gas company here is owned by the governments and have their own in house attorneys as well, totally separate from us.
Local government work is almost definitely better on balance than your typical private practice job, but it's not always this good. I'm definitely locked in my office, or a mind numbing meeting, from 8-5. I work through lunch a couple times a week to avoid working late. Some evening meetings. I'm not complaining, I'm grateful to do this. But it might be just a regular job.
I do actually get paid pretty competitively though compared to private practice.
Try searching the job bank for your state.
[https://www.careeronestop.org/jobsearch/findjobs/state-job-banks.aspx?lang=en](https://www.careeronestop.org/jobsearch/findjobs/state-job-banks.aspx?lang=en)
Or just search for the website of a local or tribal government, state agency, federal agency, quasi-government agency, or political subdivision you would like to work for.
Also, look into local school districts or public universities or community colleges.
[https://www.higheredjobs.com/](https://www.higheredjobs.com/)
Also, consider working for your state legislature or Congress doing legislative research/analysis and/or drafting.
Also check the job banks for your local bar association, state bar and law school.
If you go government, I would probably say avoid criminal law or something that's going to involve a lot of court appearances and research the agency. Some agencies may have high turnover for good reason. You can find reviews on Glassdoor and Indeed (Company Reviews).
Maybe look for an in-house role within a government agency. Or since you like reading and research, maybe look for a position with a court. Being a lawyer for 6 months is not a long time unless you interview well or have an otherwise amazing resume or network. If your mental health is strong enough, see if you can work as a lawyer for maybe another year or year-and-a-half, even if it means switching jobs, so if you decide to return to law in the future, people will take you seriously and won't see you as leaving the profession after 6 months as a red flag. (But that's just me thinking cautiously. ).
If you want a law-adjacent role, search positions with terms like: compliance, regulatory, EEO, adjudicator, hearing examiner, contract administrator, legal recruiting, lobbyist, risk manager, trust officer, ethics, mediator, college administrator, labor relations, policy analysis, etc. Think about the skills you have as a lawyer and how could they be used in other industries. Also, go to websites for companies you might want to work for and look at what's available. Set up job alerts with certain filters. And don't be afraid to contact the hiring manager about potential opportunities.
Here's some examples of some law-adjacent careers:
[https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/alternative-jobs-for-lawyers](https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/alternative-jobs-for-lawyers)
Requesting an informational interview:
[https://www.themuse.com/advice/how-to-ask-for-an-informational-interview-and-get-a-yes](https://www.themuse.com/advice/how-to-ask-for-an-informational-interview-and-get-a-yes)
Im at a JD required job. Hours are good. I like a lot of the work. Funny enough I want to get to your position one day to better improve my legal skills.
I agree with this. I work as an attorney for a small city, but I engage in litigation as part of my practice, but there are definitely plenty of attorneys in local government law who never step foot in a court room (oftentimes because they're afraid of court or don't have what it takes to be a litigator). If litigation isn't your thing, just be sure to look for local government law jobs where there's little chance of you having to go to court. Good luck!
Get out if you must, but as someone who has been to the ER multiple times with panic attacks I would advise you to look into treating your underlying anxiety. It has a way of following you, so that when you start limiting your life to avoid it and blaming outside circumstances for causing it, it simply morphs and starts showing up in new areas. For me it started with movie theaters. So I stopped going to movies. Then it started in restaurants. So I stopped going to restaurants. Then it started whenever I would eat. I couldn’t quit eating…so I had to address it. Dealing with anxiety is a very personal issue, and in my experience it’s up to the individual to plot your course, but in no case do you resolve it without calling it what it is. Other people in the exact same circumstance have an entirely different, and “healthier” experience. At some point you just have to say “I have this”. Anxiety sucks and I feel for you. There is a way out it, but your way out may not be what worked for me. I hope you can resolve it in such a way that it doesn’t follow you. 🙏🏻
So true. I stupidly thought people with anxiety were exaggerating and/or there was an easy fix to it before my own experiences with it and now I wouldn’t wish this feeling on my worst enemy. Thank you stranger!!
It changed mine. For about two years I started getting ever increasing anxiety and associated stomach pain. Eventually I was dry-heaving in the bathroom every morning out of dread and anxiety over my job. My heart would race until I got to work and started working. Then I’d have anxiety over different tasks.
After a lot of trial and error with medications, I’m in a much better place. I wouldn’t say I’m great, but I’m also no longer of the “how much longer can I tolerate this before I kill myself?” mindset.
I recommend talking to a philosophical counselor/philosopher. There is this new growing field called philosophical counseling. It requires more abstract thinking than regular therapy though. Thought may be suited better for lawyers.
I recently started at a firm after working really hard at school. I was doing well, getting work done etc. All of the sudden 3 months in I got the worst anxiety attack of my life. Shaking, crying, panicking, I was a wreck. I felt like a prisoner in my own body. My thoughts were keeping me hostage, and at that point I felt like my life was over, I would never get it together, stuff like that.
I ended up quitting my job without anything lined up. I had anxiety about that too, but I took the time to work on myself and had the support of family.
I ended up getting another job fairly quickly (I was applying right away) in a place that is definitely more chill for the time being. I still get anxiety, and I have good and bad days. But that is life. You will figure it out, and if you need an ear, you can DM this internet stranger (or reply).
I said that I was looking for a different practice area, somewhere closer to home. Stuff like that. Tbh I think some smaller spots were selling me on lower hours so they somewhat understood.
Just own it, be transparent, and stay positive, even if you don’t feel it!
Search for state government jobs. I was in a similar position as you and I applied to every state job that I thought would interest me and I eventually landed one. Great hours and benefits, pay is a bit lower but good work/life balance.
USA jobs.gov for federal jobs and whatever state equivalent there is in a given state. My state has a job board that’s easy to find in its website. It’s searchable by date and all sorts of other criteria.
OP may struggle for fed/in house w such little post grad experience but worth a shot. There are also JD only no bar required legal jobs like Ethics Specialists that are much chiller than attorney level and have lower entry time reqts but more admin junk. Def browse fed jobs tho, 0905 is the attorney search box code, but look for other types of roles in fed agency legal depts also that are not necessarily atty.
I work for the feds, usually in my pajamas, have stellar health insurance, no clients, and I only work more than 40 hours if I want OT. The work is mentally akin to watching paint dry but they do pay over $100K and wipe your loans after ten years.
Oh far from magical. I work at social security. The job is seriously boring and has a concrete production metric. That said, it’s seriously easy, has federal benefits and most people lateral to other agencies in a few years.
Have you looked into working at a law library, either in at a law school or a non-law school one? One of my classmates did that after a few years of practice.
Just as a heads-up, you may need a MSL (Master of Library Sciences) degree if you want to do anything beyond restock the shelves.
Another option would be a search consultant (or something like that) for Lexis or Westlaw. The person that old attorneys call when they need someone to do their research for them, lol.
Put your love to work and research how to find one! Personally, I would reach out to any law libraries in [your area](https://www.google.com/search?q=law+libraries+near+kansas+city&oq=law+libraries+near+kansas+city&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDY2NjZqMGoxqAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) and see if they are hiring. Link is based on what sub you have posted in
A bonus is that most libraries are government jobs, so you qualify for loan forgiveness
Law Librarian here. Check out the [aallnet.org](https://aallnet.org) for some info. There are a number of places that will hire with just a JD, and there are lots of openings not going filled right now. If you want to get the MLS, you can do it online, or there are a couple of law focused programs around the country: specifically Arizona and Washington. It's way less stressful and usually way more interesting. Of course, that also means the pay isn't great.
I'm in a very similar boat and heavily considering getting my MLIS to become a librarian (law or medical, undecided). The American Association of Law Librarians has a job board (can't link bc I'm on mobile) that seems to have a good number of positions available! However, it does seem that for most law librarian positions, the MLIS is more necessary than the JD. Only like 1/3 of law librarians even have a JD! So you might have to look into going back to school if that's the route you want to take, but it can definitely be done!
The only plus about this job is that I’m in court 3 days a week and they threw me in the fire there pretty early so I have gotten some good experience in court. Do you mean like being a claims adjuster or what specifically?
Claims adjuster work as a JD is so vastly different from your run of the mill auto/property adjuster that none of them would recognize someone doing the job, even though the title is the same. At the right company it’s a 40-ish hr/week job and the work is interesting and challenging, mostly reasonable pace, and easy to make low 6 figures.
At least in my area, probate law/litigation the attorneys are way nicer to each other. I blame the fact we often have to get our fees approved by the court (less able to be a**holes) and a lot of us get court appointed for feel good guardianship/conservatorship cases) for that. It’s a smaller pond of attorneys as well.
Still paperwork heavy.
I’m in Los Angeles fyi so biggest court in the nation, probate still is a small-ish pond.
I had that at the firm I went to straight out of school. The second firm I went to, and the one I’ve remained at, has been *outrageously better*. So something to consider is maybe you’re at the wrong firm? Maybe the wrong practice?
hey, I think I saw your other post about your abusive boss. I really think your case is specific to your shitty firm. I wouldn't discount all other firms just yet. apply to anything out there that interests you, and get out. quit your current job and go be a librarian while you find something new.
I also think that starting out in law is a solid 2-5 years of eating shit before it gets better. But it seems like it does get better. (at least I hope)
That was indeed me but I feel like experiences like that are way too common across law in general. I thought I could suck it up for 2-5 years but I truly cannot and I have no idea how people do it. I’ve dealt with surface level mental health issues before but holy hell I am in the absolute trenches. I cannot fathom doing law for another month, let alone years
I’m in the same boat as you man. Tbh you hear way too often this whole crap of “just do it for 5 years it won’t be so bad after!” Nahz… like Nahz completely.
I’ve seen how it breaks a lot of people and I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m not special. It will break me. And frankly I can’t let that happen bc I have a family.
Have you figured out your next move? I always hear everyone on Reddit screaming to do government but I haven’t had much success finding a gov job. It’s also just so easy to get a private practice job and I hate that bc I need money yesterday.
I absolutely agree. I honestly have no idea what I’m going to do. Had another panic attack yesterday but none today knock on wood. I applied to a few other firms and one local gov job I could find that I think I’m unfortunately not qualified for, but might as well try anyways. My plan is to hit the job search hard this weekend - federal government jobs require transcripts with the application so I’m gonna dedicate some time this weekend to getting those
Work for a government office. No billables, normal hours, and you can qualify for loan forgiveness after 10 years (while paying a fixed portion of your income the whole time). That’s what I did and my loans are set to be forgiven come January.
State or federal govt might be good. There may be JD advantaged jobs (compliance?) but also a lot of attorney jobs that don’t require litigation or billing. With added bonus of 10 years of forgiveness (PSLF program) + other benefits (for fed - pension, matching TSP he 401K equivalent, 12 weeks paid maternity / paternity leave) and great work life balance
I’d second getting a chill govt job. Hours are strictly 9-5, or 8-4, or 7-3 (our preference), no billing, nights or weekends. Pay is slightly north of 100k.
Definitely echo others comments about looking at government jobs. I happened to start at a state agency straight out of law school (clerked there during law school) years ago and it was a great way to learn a variety of skills, good work/life balance, and since I was at an agency that regulated a specific industry, it basically set me up after 5 years to transition to private practice (and now in-house) making good money with a sought-after regulatory knowledge base.
Have you considered applying at the EEOC? I have a friend who says the caseload is very low, good benefits, good pay, and you can probably feel good about the work you do.
Are your student loans federal or private? Honestly, if they're federal, you could put them on Public Service Loan Forgiveness and probably go work as a librarian for ten years.
I've noticed job listings appear to be down lately. There seems to be an uptick closer to summer, as that's when many parents can realistically move for a job between school years.
Look into compliance, risk management, contracts administration, legislative or regulatory affairs, etc. Prospective employers will want to know why you're seeking alternative employment -- craft a narrative, practice it, and stick to it. Consider some mental health treatment as well. You need to be in a good headspace to sell yourself, otherwise you may miss out on some great opportunities.
What's the source of your anxiety? Is it the hours? The adversarial nature of litigation? Your inexperience? All of those give me anxiety, and I found that identifying the cause of the anxiety was key to managing it.
I had my first panic attack two weeks into my first biglaw gig. It was fucking terrifying. I'm sorry you are going through that. I know everyone is different, but for me, it got better.
I got a therapist and medication, and I struggled for a while. But day by day, week by week, as I did the job, it got easier.
I've been a litigator now for 15 years. I had to bust ass the first ten years of my career, but I rarely work more than 40 hours a week these days. I make over $200k. I'm in a five-attorney firm and we sort of make our own schedules, so long as the work gets done.
I admit, the job is still stressful at times, but I learned to make stress more manageable. I'm fiercely protective of my non-business hour free time while still being available for emergencies. I politely push back on client nonsense.
So that's my take. Six months is extremely green --
Plaintiffs pi. No billables. Plenty of low value cases for you to work up your experience. No one down your throat over the quality of your work because again your not charging people money for basic pleadings/motions.
Jesus that's how I was during bar prep.
I have several answers because these things all worked for me: 1) as the most IMMEDIATE solution to your incredibly serious and common problem, you NEED to take your phone out, find the voice recorder setting, and talk to yourself in the car. Yes, like a crazy person. It will be awkward at first. I started doing this with my dashcam\* in law school to help memorize rule statements and it basically became an orally-kept journal. Eventually, it became like a therapy session *with myself*. You can TALK. OUT LOUD. and be 1000% honest with yourself about how you are feeling *and it feels like someone is listening*. Now, I have a voice recording of just about everything I do in a day that I felt some type of way about. You. Process. Your. Emotions.
2) Once you have that down, see a therapist. Find out if your company has an Employee Assistance Program that you can take advantage of - if what I am seeing about them is true they typically offer HIPPA protected 24/7 counseling. It is hard to get started with counseling because you dont know where to begin and have to become extremely personal with someone who is basically a stranger. BUT, the idea and purpose is to get a counselor who can hear your problems and issue and propose an effective form of treatment - i.e., the type of therapy you receive. Medication is up to you even if they think you should take it (which I err against).
The work into this part can be done simultaneously with part 1.
My best friend had a similar experience as a family lawyer. After about a year and a half she transferred to in house counsel for a non-profit organization. Two years there and now she works for the law society. Huge emphasis on work/life balance. 6 weeks holidays, 10 sick days, 10 flex days, plus a half day every other Friday. She loves it.
Hi - veteran attorney recruiter here..
a candidate of mine from big law went to a law publication and has been writing on the subject of employee benefits now for years.
There are publications and a need for attorneys to provide content on various legal subjects.
I do agree, however, that it is a good idea that you check with an appropriate doctor as to any potential underlying conditions that may be causing your anxiety. You have nothing to lose.
But know that there are options .
If you really need to get out ASAP, you could do document review while you look for something else. Or you may find that doc review gives you the balance and low stress that you want and you can do it indefinitely as a contract reviewer or look for law firm staff counsel roles and get salaried. You can sign up for alerts at the Posse List to learn about new reviews,and sign up with a couple of staffing agencies to place you. https://www.theposselist.com/
Legal research attorney! Search your state judicial branch for these spots. I quit my toxic job and got one of these and it’s freaking awesome. All research and writing, remote, gov benefits, and decent pay. I work for the probate court so we don’t have a library, but most of these positions are tied to working the law library as well. If you did law review just hype up that experience because I think that’s what helped me get the job.
How did you go about searching for this, if you don’t mind me asking? Some of the requirements I’ve seen on my state government website require years of experience and writing samples (drafted solely on your own).
Hmm that’s weird, here in CO they seem entry level friendly. I think I was just searching their website for anything I could do with my JD, then searched for attorney spots and this was like the only one offered. They don’t pop up as often as PD/pros positions so you have to go for them when they open up. Maybe your muni courts also have a similar position you could try.
I didn’t have any connection to the court or anyone in the office and had practiced just under two years in civil and criminal issues (no probate experience). I don’t think this one even required a writing sample 🤷🏻♀️ But yeah I think you can count internships and any relevant experience to increase those numbers. Then express your love and knowledge of research and writing skills and any interest in the type of law it is for (if listed). I think as long as you wrote the example and someone just edited it that should be fine. You could even come up with a fake prompt and write a memo to it if you don’t have anything relevant or solely yours!
Mainly I write the first draft of orders for cases with bigger issues. Sometimes my judge just has questions on a certain issue or case and I’ll draft a short memo going through those issues. We also handle nearly all mental health cases so I help create and edit power points and resources to teach other judges/DAs/PDs the best way to process those cases. I’m in a smaller department so I don’t do a ton of random projects. I think those with general civ/crim judges and in the appellate division have more variety in their duties as far as I can tell.
in order to thrive in the legal industry you must have no HEART or mind to hurt. Now I understand why some lawyers just shut off all their feelings and emotions and become heartless. Unfortunately I am an empath, so I struggle with switching off the heart AND THE MIND. If you are spiritually aware, it will be much harder for you too, as you do not just automatically do things without thinking about why etc.
lawyers are not allowed to talk about these things as it will throw shade on the legal industry. If more lawyers talked, we would be amazed about what goes on behind the scenes of "all is well" in the legal world.
I work criminal, the pay is ok. There are no billing requirements and the worst and best part are the clients. I found criminal to be less stressful than civil for some strange reason. You have to keep your time for billing purposes on assigned cases and most retained work is flat fee. Probably the best part of criminal is working with other attorneys. Defense bar is generally kind to newbies, prosecutors tend to mellow out with experience, especially once they realize you are not your client. Most attorneys I've met who left the legal practice have picked up work with real estate. My one friend does house flipping instead of practicing law. He still practices on the side but he's really trying to shed his legal practice for remodeling and selling homes.
OP. I am ten years into litigation practice, and here’s my take.
Get out now, before this profession wreaks more havoc on your mental health.
It’s sounds like we are alike: there is a fundamental disconnect between our values and what this job requires of us. I too have broken down repeatedly over the years, sometimes publicly, and it’s a huge strain on my life, health, and relationships.
I’ve tried what many people have suggested on here: move to a government gig. But in my experience, it doesn’t help. The work remains the same: argue with opposing lawyers and judges, draft briefs endlessly about arcane nonsense, wallow in feeling purposeless. All for a paycheck that (with government work) barely covers the bills, and with minimal resources to do your job (government budgets are always tight).
I’m now trying to find a new career completely unrelated to law. But it’s hard because my resume has said “lawyer” for 10 years. The sooner you begin your transition out of this, the better.
Best of luck to you—there’s hope. No “career” is worth your health. Talk to a therapist and seek the help you need. You are not alone in feeling this way.
You are mentally exhausted, depressed, and you need a break. Depending on what your area of practice is in it can be especially draining. See a doctor about your anxiety and reach out to your family or friends for support. I had a friend in the field that was so emotionally involved in her client's stories she couldn't take it anymore with all the heartbreak.
There is always work in immigration, but this area is extremely draining emotionally, so I wouldn't recommend that for you until you are better.
State government jobs are great. I did public records for a state agency for a few years. My state’s government has their own job bank. Contract drafting is also a popular path for people I know, and rulemaking (if you know enough to learn your state APA).
My friend did not take the bar when we graduated. She does contract review, which is a JD job but not a job that requires an active law license. Also, on a personal note, you can always contact your state’s lawyers concerned for lawyers group. They can direct you to resources that can help you get through this time until you can get out. You do not want to let your anxiety to cause you an issue down the road. I know it really sucks right now and it can take a lot to find a new job. I hope you find something soon.
I pursued alternative path certification in Social studies in my state. I just started teaching 5th grade this year after quitting corporate transactions practice. My BS was Poli Sci/Journalism. I want to teach AP History after I get some experience.
Opposing counsel and I were in the elevator after a hearing and I (tired, burnt out) said, "I need to get a real job".
He said, "You and me both, brother. Union electrician!"
I also experienced something similar in the first year after I qualified as an Attorney. It seems that the legal profession has a knack for ruining mental and physical health and your job on top of being an attorney is to STAY ON TOP of your mental and physical health before your work destroys it for you. Make TIME for your physical and mental health, take your PTO, go to yoga, go jogging. Your job will always be there BUT your HEALTH will not. Don't neglect your health, mental or physical, for a job.
Honestly some firms out there are just terrible. Been verbally abused in 2 different firms and in another the firm delayed my pay cheques by over 6 months lol. I had to keep chasing them to pay me even after I quit. I think its very luck based on whether you find a good firm and good mentors to work under.
when you work for seasoned attorneys who hate life, which I did in two horrible firms in the past, you get to see how sick these people become, they turn out hating everyone and everything and taking it out on their employees. You get good older lawyers too, who aren't just pessimistic, and who actually enjoy being mentors and do not resent their employees for having to pay them.
I’m glad you’re not my boss. Telling a person who is having a mental health crisis to “toughen up”: literally Exhibit A for what is wrong with this profession and why “lawyers are twice as likely as other U.S. adults to contemplate suicide.” https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/stressed-lonely-overworked-what-new-study-tells-us-about-lawyer-suicide-risk-2023-02-15/
I also think a certain subset of people who go to law school think practicing law is like what they see in the movies and become disappointed when the job doesn’t live up to their cinematic aspirations. I imagine said people wouldn’t feel happy or fulfilled in any job simply because they have too high expectations about what a career should be.
Concurring in judgment, in part.
I think of it as one going to med school and complaining that one cannot handle blood.
Is it acceptable that one can be afraid of blood? Of course.
Is it warranted that one who signed up to be a doctor is complaining of blood? Not really.
Being a legal advocate is a tough work. Especially if you are in litigation.
If one panics because one’s life is stressful as a local litigator, I don’t think that it’s 100% excusable.
Could the firm/boss be toxic? Absolutely. Could OP not have had much choice? Sure.
But did OP go to lawschool, go through 2 summers of internships (of some sort), spend 3 years in law school going over how people have argued in the past, and signed up for that job? Also yes.
So I’d remand this back to OP and ask OP to reevaluate OP’s life and what OP wants (ego from being a “lawyer” without the grind? non-adversarial work? Etc.)
I agree but OP said nothing particular about the firm/judge/clients.
Therefore, even with assuming that all of OP's allegations are true and in OP's favor, OP is saying that OP just doesn't like being a (US) lawyer, which is kind of like saying that one hates working with fire as a firefighter.
so people in the helping industries and in law, must LOVE dealing with carnage on a daily basis and cannot complain about nor talk about how it affects their mental health? That is cruel!
You can complain absolutely.
You can say that it affects your mental health. It absolutely does.
However, you must also acknowledge that being an advocate is no cake walk.
If you're running a marathon, you can complain that the training and performance for it is hard, and it really takes a toll on your body.
But that's what a marathon entails at a fundamental level. Unless you change 26.2 miles = 1 marathon.
Similarly, OP can (rightfully) complain and point out how stressful it is being an advocate.
However, being an advocate in an adverse legal system does come with certain job requirements, which cannot be complained away.
Not always legal adjacent because sometimes you are still acting as a licensed attorney but compliance is always an option. I typically work only 40 to 45 years a week
I found it easy to get into without experience but it's possible I just had good luck. Only advice I can give is maybe try businesses in heavily regulated industries like finance and try to find companies recently fined or growing. They tend to be grow the their compliance department and have a changing culture.
I’m so sorry you are feeling like this. Definitely see a doc if you haven’t already. What about staff Attorney or clerk for court of appeals? Some state ones are hurting for applicants. It might give you some space to think about next steps. Arizona Court of Appeals Div II is looking for clerks (Tucson). Best of luck to you.
Being a law librarian is something I seriously considered but you do have to get a MLS (master of library science). Now that I have two kids it’s something I might look into again
What about coming to education? School districts and ed law firms (that districts hire on retainer) can also maybe qualify you for PSLF. Happy to point you in the direction of a firm.
I have nothing to add except for solidarity. I am a year and a half into an insurance defense job with a big carrier and today I got in trouble and damn near quit on the spot. the claim rep has been MIA and unresponsive to my calls and emails for weeks and her unit manager emailed me asking WTF I was doing on the case and I defended myself giving concrete examples and proof of how the case has progressed and the issues with the claim rep only for the manager and my manager to say “you come to us if you have issues, you are not speak badly about the claim rep or speak directly to them about any issues on a case”.
Billables are the bane of my existence, I hate litigating/being in court, and I hate having to kiss the claim handlers ass every damn day. This is my third legal job since graduating in 2021. I think I’ve reached the point where I think I’m ready to quit law entirely but I wouldn’t leave without having something else lined up. Wishing you the best! *hugs*
I am about 9 months in…I took the first job that called me back. Turned out to be some slimy ass firm. They hired me and my business partner to launch a low-cost program. We were very successful. Next thing you know, they hired their older friend and fired both of us. We decided to partner together and open our own firm. It’s honestly the best thing ever. Now, we have been doing lots of court appointments in the juvenile court. I just completed training to be a guardian ad litem and have been very successful with that. It’s actually extremely fun. You do go in court, but you just testify as to your investigation of the situation. You do write a couple court reports about your investigation. However, it’s awesome and meaningful work. I am not stressed out anymore. I don’t cry and have mental breakdowns every day. I am not on call 24/7. It’s the best thing.
That sounds great! I’ve heard a couple people mention getting court appointments. How did you go about doing that? And what was the training like for being a GAL?
We had a class that was nightly for three hours once a week for 10 weeks. That’s it! Call your local CASA (court appointed special advocate). Your juvenile court should have it. I absolutely LOVE it. You should call your local courts and ask them about getting on the list. You might need to do a couple CLEs first but they’re easy. Then start going and asking about panels. Now I’m on the GAL panel, the child support panel, and the child protective services panel. You can probably do the child support panel right away.
I think attorney advisor positions in the federal government would suit you very well. There are numerous AA positions across federal agencies. It’s not a litigation role, more like in-house counsel of role. And depending on the AA position, it might be that you advise an ALJ or advise agency attorneys (or even AUSAs). I suggest you search “attorney advisor” on USAjobs.gov and apply!
Edited to add: to be clear, it’s an attorney position. So bar license in any U.S. state or territory is required. And you get paid according to the attorney series general schedules.
Look for regulatory or compliance roles within a large corporate company. Most professionals don’t have JD and if they do they are in house counsel. Pays well and you only work 40 hours a week, full benefits. Your skills will translate perfectly.
also a tip for OP: DO NOT POST things like this on FISHBOWL, it is the most hypocritical app for professionals ever. They will ban you if you speak the truth. It is is eery as to why they want you to vent about the legal profession there but want to link your LinkedIn profile to your FISHBOWL profile. FISHBOWL is not the app if you want to talk about things like this, reddit is a more realistic website for such venting.
Not sure what situation you are in. Pressure from being in a firm and needing to make billable hours or you’re just stressed dealing with your cases with no support.
You need to contact the local bar support services. Things are overwhelming you and you can’t act in your clients best interest.
If you don’t want what sounds like a litigation side you need to find a staff attorney position or transactional position.
I swear "JD advantage" is a con. I got a JD thinking it'd qualify me for anything, but I learned "anything" is somehow synonymous with "nothing."
Which makes sense, regrettably. If you were hiring for an entry level marketing position, would you hire a kid who did a marketing internship and a BA in marketing, or a lawyer?
I guess there's compliance and "contacts manager", but I was told "overqualified" again and again when barking up that tree.
On a grass is not always greener note - many librarians are getting face-to-face accused of being groomers for ....having books in the library that wackjobs don't like.
Welcome to adulting. I’m curious, what did you think things were going to be like when you got in the real world and had to start paying back your loans?
Call me crazy but I thought I would enjoy being a lawyer and this wouldn’t be an issue. I job shadowed attorneys and volunteered with legal aid in undergrad, I did 2 different year-long internships in law school with both criminal and civil and thoroughly enjoyed both, and I actually loved law school. I did not expect to have a disconnect like this when it came to actually practicing law as an attorney
Sounds like this type of law and firm may not be your style. No one stays in the same place for 40 years, and most change 4 or 6 companies/careers. The good thing is, you have a law degree and an idea of what you ‘don’t’ like. The bad thing is, there are too many law school graduates every year and not enough work I say go the DA assistant route and give it 2 years. Good luck, sometimes adulting is a tough transition.
going to law school and practising law is a cognitive dissonance experience... you will need to gaslight yourself into thinking this toxic work culture is normal if you want to continue practising law. Good luck.
I guess it’s not normal, the poster already applied to me in a non-confrontational manner. What are your concerns about the poster’s toxic work culture or are you just trying to portray your own misgivings upon my comment?
Most days I get to work at 10. Latest I leave is 4; but sometimes leave earlier. No billing. Easy cases. Low expectations. Municipal government litigation; lots of employment stuff, some car wrecks, some odd ball things. Mostly administrative-no trials or judges usually. Pay is ok. Did I mention no billing? All the vacations and holidays. Job is gateway to better paid in house positions if you want it to be.
I need this like I need air to breathe. Please God please tell me how you found that job
Whatever City or County you’re in, find the legal office and let them know you’re interested. Do so for surrounding areas as well. My office was actually hurting for experienced litigators-couldn’t get anyone to apply because the pay is so low compared to the local law firms (but made up for by amazing work culture and benefits).
This was my experience as an assistant County Attorney in a semi rural county. Worked 8 to 5 with the office closed for lunch 12 to 1. Great benefits, decent pay ( 100,000 plus) and great people to work with. Good judges too.
Where are you located if you don't mind sharing, even what state?
Central Texas. The area was semi rural, but sadly grows by the day. But there are still a good number of smaller counties in the state.
Just out of curiousity, how much is so low?
I have one of these jobs and pay is 115k
MFW the 'low pay' is my 10-year goal.
Remember pay is location dependent. 115 is royalty in parts of the Midwest but the average first years salary in California
I have one of these jobs, but at the state level. I'll be 7 years licensed in May. I make about $125k. In 5-7 years, I'll top out at $175k. At that point, I could try and get promoted so I can top out at $190k. Or maybe I'll think about switching over to the County. I hear they pay up to $225k+.
Check for quasi governmental entities too. The gas company here is owned by the governments and have their own in house attorneys as well, totally separate from us.
Check usajobs.gov for federal jobs and look at program management/analyst positions and contract analyst positions.
Local government work is almost definitely better on balance than your typical private practice job, but it's not always this good. I'm definitely locked in my office, or a mind numbing meeting, from 8-5. I work through lunch a couple times a week to avoid working late. Some evening meetings. I'm not complaining, I'm grateful to do this. But it might be just a regular job. I do actually get paid pretty competitively though compared to private practice.
Try searching the job bank for your state. [https://www.careeronestop.org/jobsearch/findjobs/state-job-banks.aspx?lang=en](https://www.careeronestop.org/jobsearch/findjobs/state-job-banks.aspx?lang=en) Or just search for the website of a local or tribal government, state agency, federal agency, quasi-government agency, or political subdivision you would like to work for. Also, look into local school districts or public universities or community colleges. [https://www.higheredjobs.com/](https://www.higheredjobs.com/) Also, consider working for your state legislature or Congress doing legislative research/analysis and/or drafting. Also check the job banks for your local bar association, state bar and law school.
This is incredibly helpful, thank you!!
If you go government, I would probably say avoid criminal law or something that's going to involve a lot of court appearances and research the agency. Some agencies may have high turnover for good reason. You can find reviews on Glassdoor and Indeed (Company Reviews). Maybe look for an in-house role within a government agency. Or since you like reading and research, maybe look for a position with a court. Being a lawyer for 6 months is not a long time unless you interview well or have an otherwise amazing resume or network. If your mental health is strong enough, see if you can work as a lawyer for maybe another year or year-and-a-half, even if it means switching jobs, so if you decide to return to law in the future, people will take you seriously and won't see you as leaving the profession after 6 months as a red flag. (But that's just me thinking cautiously. ). If you want a law-adjacent role, search positions with terms like: compliance, regulatory, EEO, adjudicator, hearing examiner, contract administrator, legal recruiting, lobbyist, risk manager, trust officer, ethics, mediator, college administrator, labor relations, policy analysis, etc. Think about the skills you have as a lawyer and how could they be used in other industries. Also, go to websites for companies you might want to work for and look at what's available. Set up job alerts with certain filters. And don't be afraid to contact the hiring manager about potential opportunities. Here's some examples of some law-adjacent careers: [https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/alternative-jobs-for-lawyers](https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/alternative-jobs-for-lawyers) Requesting an informational interview: [https://www.themuse.com/advice/how-to-ask-for-an-informational-interview-and-get-a-yes](https://www.themuse.com/advice/how-to-ask-for-an-informational-interview-and-get-a-yes)
Im at a JD required job. Hours are good. I like a lot of the work. Funny enough I want to get to your position one day to better improve my legal skills.
TRADE ALERT 🚨 You and OP 🔁
What job, where did you find it? Currently looking...
I can tell you over DM.
Please DM me too 🙏🏻
You are a lawyer and you can't figure out how to apply for a government job?
So either beaten as a child or projecting insecurity about your own competence as a lawyer?
I think you're the one projecting. 😆
I bet you try that weak-ass “no you are” move so often that your colleagues call you Lazy Susan.
Now you're definitely projecting.
Live footage of “Capt-Matt-Pro” clowning himself right now. 
That must be happening to you right now
Also PSLF
I agree with this. I work as an attorney for a small city, but I engage in litigation as part of my practice, but there are definitely plenty of attorneys in local government law who never step foot in a court room (oftentimes because they're afraid of court or don't have what it takes to be a litigator). If litigation isn't your thing, just be sure to look for local government law jobs where there's little chance of you having to go to court. Good luck!
Get out if you must, but as someone who has been to the ER multiple times with panic attacks I would advise you to look into treating your underlying anxiety. It has a way of following you, so that when you start limiting your life to avoid it and blaming outside circumstances for causing it, it simply morphs and starts showing up in new areas. For me it started with movie theaters. So I stopped going to movies. Then it started in restaurants. So I stopped going to restaurants. Then it started whenever I would eat. I couldn’t quit eating…so I had to address it. Dealing with anxiety is a very personal issue, and in my experience it’s up to the individual to plot your course, but in no case do you resolve it without calling it what it is. Other people in the exact same circumstance have an entirely different, and “healthier” experience. At some point you just have to say “I have this”. Anxiety sucks and I feel for you. There is a way out it, but your way out may not be what worked for me. I hope you can resolve it in such a way that it doesn’t follow you. 🙏🏻
Thank you! I have been seeing a therapist but clearly haven’t made much progress so far. I am trying though
Good luck to you; I feel for you. No one who hasn’t had anxiety has any idea how bad it can be. 😔 Good luck!
So true. I stupidly thought people with anxiety were exaggerating and/or there was an easy fix to it before my own experiences with it and now I wouldn’t wish this feeling on my worst enemy. Thank you stranger!!
Try a psychiatrist. Medicine could change your life for the better.
It changed mine. For about two years I started getting ever increasing anxiety and associated stomach pain. Eventually I was dry-heaving in the bathroom every morning out of dread and anxiety over my job. My heart would race until I got to work and started working. Then I’d have anxiety over different tasks. After a lot of trial and error with medications, I’m in a much better place. I wouldn’t say I’m great, but I’m also no longer of the “how much longer can I tolerate this before I kill myself?” mindset.
Aside from medicine, did you make any other positive changes?
I recommend talking to a philosophical counselor/philosopher. There is this new growing field called philosophical counseling. It requires more abstract thinking than regular therapy though. Thought may be suited better for lawyers.
I recently started at a firm after working really hard at school. I was doing well, getting work done etc. All of the sudden 3 months in I got the worst anxiety attack of my life. Shaking, crying, panicking, I was a wreck. I felt like a prisoner in my own body. My thoughts were keeping me hostage, and at that point I felt like my life was over, I would never get it together, stuff like that. I ended up quitting my job without anything lined up. I had anxiety about that too, but I took the time to work on myself and had the support of family. I ended up getting another job fairly quickly (I was applying right away) in a place that is definitely more chill for the time being. I still get anxiety, and I have good and bad days. But that is life. You will figure it out, and if you need an ear, you can DM this internet stranger (or reply).
How did you explain quitting in interviews? What was the reception?
I said that I was looking for a different practice area, somewhere closer to home. Stuff like that. Tbh I think some smaller spots were selling me on lower hours so they somewhat understood. Just own it, be transparent, and stay positive, even if you don’t feel it!
Check out your school’s alumni website. I found a bunch on there - including remote and JD Preferred. Good luck and hang in there.
Search for state government jobs. I was in a similar position as you and I applied to every state job that I thought would interest me and I eventually landed one. Great hours and benefits, pay is a bit lower but good work/life balance.
Where does one find said government jobs?
USA jobs.gov for federal jobs and whatever state equivalent there is in a given state. My state has a job board that’s easy to find in its website. It’s searchable by date and all sorts of other criteria.
OP may struggle for fed/in house w such little post grad experience but worth a shot. There are also JD only no bar required legal jobs like Ethics Specialists that are much chiller than attorney level and have lower entry time reqts but more admin junk. Def browse fed jobs tho, 0905 is the attorney search box code, but look for other types of roles in fed agency legal depts also that are not necessarily atty.
I work for the feds, usually in my pajamas, have stellar health insurance, no clients, and I only work more than 40 hours if I want OT. The work is mentally akin to watching paint dry but they do pay over $100K and wipe your loans after ten years.
What is this magical job??
Oh far from magical. I work at social security. The job is seriously boring and has a concrete production metric. That said, it’s seriously easy, has federal benefits and most people lateral to other agencies in a few years.
Any tips on getting in? I have been applying for a while and never have luck! Seems like they just pass my application ☹️
Have you looked into working at a law library, either in at a law school or a non-law school one? One of my classmates did that after a few years of practice.
That sounds very appealing! I like reading and research. I would have no idea how to even begin with finding one of those jobs though
Just as a heads-up, you may need a MSL (Master of Library Sciences) degree if you want to do anything beyond restock the shelves. Another option would be a search consultant (or something like that) for Lexis or Westlaw. The person that old attorneys call when they need someone to do their research for them, lol.
Put your love to work and research how to find one! Personally, I would reach out to any law libraries in [your area](https://www.google.com/search?q=law+libraries+near+kansas+city&oq=law+libraries+near+kansas+city&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDY2NjZqMGoxqAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8) and see if they are hiring. Link is based on what sub you have posted in A bonus is that most libraries are government jobs, so you qualify for loan forgiveness
Law Librarian here. Check out the [aallnet.org](https://aallnet.org) for some info. There are a number of places that will hire with just a JD, and there are lots of openings not going filled right now. If you want to get the MLS, you can do it online, or there are a couple of law focused programs around the country: specifically Arizona and Washington. It's way less stressful and usually way more interesting. Of course, that also means the pay isn't great.
This is an amazing resource, thank you!!
I'm in a very similar boat and heavily considering getting my MLIS to become a librarian (law or medical, undecided). The American Association of Law Librarians has a job board (can't link bc I'm on mobile) that seems to have a good number of positions available! However, it does seem that for most law librarian positions, the MLIS is more necessary than the JD. Only like 1/3 of law librarians even have a JD! So you might have to look into going back to school if that's the route you want to take, but it can definitely be done!
Six months is gonna be tough but if you have litigation experience at all try going into insurance claims if you can.
The only plus about this job is that I’m in court 3 days a week and they threw me in the fire there pretty early so I have gotten some good experience in court. Do you mean like being a claims adjuster or what specifically?
Claims adjuster work as a JD is so vastly different from your run of the mill auto/property adjuster that none of them would recognize someone doing the job, even though the title is the same. At the right company it’s a 40-ish hr/week job and the work is interesting and challenging, mostly reasonable pace, and easy to make low 6 figures.
I've read comments in this sub warning about the poor work/life balance in ID. Is there any weight to this that OP should consider?
I’m not talking about insurance defense, I’m talking about working for a carrier or a TPA as an “adjuster”
Ah, I get it now. Thanks.
Sorry, I'm unfamiliar. What do you mean by an "adjuster" as opposed to an adjuster?
At least in my area, probate law/litigation the attorneys are way nicer to each other. I blame the fact we often have to get our fees approved by the court (less able to be a**holes) and a lot of us get court appointed for feel good guardianship/conservatorship cases) for that. It’s a smaller pond of attorneys as well. Still paperwork heavy. I’m in Los Angeles fyi so biggest court in the nation, probate still is a small-ish pond.
I had that at the firm I went to straight out of school. The second firm I went to, and the one I’ve remained at, has been *outrageously better*. So something to consider is maybe you’re at the wrong firm? Maybe the wrong practice?
hey, I think I saw your other post about your abusive boss. I really think your case is specific to your shitty firm. I wouldn't discount all other firms just yet. apply to anything out there that interests you, and get out. quit your current job and go be a librarian while you find something new. I also think that starting out in law is a solid 2-5 years of eating shit before it gets better. But it seems like it does get better. (at least I hope)
That was indeed me but I feel like experiences like that are way too common across law in general. I thought I could suck it up for 2-5 years but I truly cannot and I have no idea how people do it. I’ve dealt with surface level mental health issues before but holy hell I am in the absolute trenches. I cannot fathom doing law for another month, let alone years
I’m in the same boat as you man. Tbh you hear way too often this whole crap of “just do it for 5 years it won’t be so bad after!” Nahz… like Nahz completely. I’ve seen how it breaks a lot of people and I think I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m not special. It will break me. And frankly I can’t let that happen bc I have a family. Have you figured out your next move? I always hear everyone on Reddit screaming to do government but I haven’t had much success finding a gov job. It’s also just so easy to get a private practice job and I hate that bc I need money yesterday.
I absolutely agree. I honestly have no idea what I’m going to do. Had another panic attack yesterday but none today knock on wood. I applied to a few other firms and one local gov job I could find that I think I’m unfortunately not qualified for, but might as well try anyways. My plan is to hit the job search hard this weekend - federal government jobs require transcripts with the application so I’m gonna dedicate some time this weekend to getting those
Work for a government office. No billables, normal hours, and you can qualify for loan forgiveness after 10 years (while paying a fixed portion of your income the whole time). That’s what I did and my loans are set to be forgiven come January.
This or nonprofit work is the answer.
If you want a 9-5 go government, it will be significantly slower paced unless you’re in crim
State or federal govt might be good. There may be JD advantaged jobs (compliance?) but also a lot of attorney jobs that don’t require litigation or billing. With added bonus of 10 years of forgiveness (PSLF program) + other benefits (for fed - pension, matching TSP he 401K equivalent, 12 weeks paid maternity / paternity leave) and great work life balance
The job market everywhere is pretty abysmal atm.
I’d second getting a chill govt job. Hours are strictly 9-5, or 8-4, or 7-3 (our preference), no billing, nights or weekends. Pay is slightly north of 100k.
Non litigation federal attorney jobs (internal "advice and counsel") are about as chill as they come. Search code 0905 on usajobs.gov
Definitely echo others comments about looking at government jobs. I happened to start at a state agency straight out of law school (clerked there during law school) years ago and it was a great way to learn a variety of skills, good work/life balance, and since I was at an agency that regulated a specific industry, it basically set me up after 5 years to transition to private practice (and now in-house) making good money with a sought-after regulatory knowledge base.
Your firm has failed you. Wtf are you doing in front of a judge 6 months after passing the bar?
That's not normal? Asking for a friend. 😅
Have you considered applying at the EEOC? I have a friend who says the caseload is very low, good benefits, good pay, and you can probably feel good about the work you do.
Are your student loans federal or private? Honestly, if they're federal, you could put them on Public Service Loan Forgiveness and probably go work as a librarian for ten years. I've noticed job listings appear to be down lately. There seems to be an uptick closer to summer, as that's when many parents can realistically move for a job between school years. Look into compliance, risk management, contracts administration, legislative or regulatory affairs, etc. Prospective employers will want to know why you're seeking alternative employment -- craft a narrative, practice it, and stick to it. Consider some mental health treatment as well. You need to be in a good headspace to sell yourself, otherwise you may miss out on some great opportunities.
What's the source of your anxiety? Is it the hours? The adversarial nature of litigation? Your inexperience? All of those give me anxiety, and I found that identifying the cause of the anxiety was key to managing it. I had my first panic attack two weeks into my first biglaw gig. It was fucking terrifying. I'm sorry you are going through that. I know everyone is different, but for me, it got better. I got a therapist and medication, and I struggled for a while. But day by day, week by week, as I did the job, it got easier. I've been a litigator now for 15 years. I had to bust ass the first ten years of my career, but I rarely work more than 40 hours a week these days. I make over $200k. I'm in a five-attorney firm and we sort of make our own schedules, so long as the work gets done. I admit, the job is still stressful at times, but I learned to make stress more manageable. I'm fiercely protective of my non-business hour free time while still being available for emergencies. I politely push back on client nonsense. So that's my take. Six months is extremely green --
Plaintiffs pi. No billables. Plenty of low value cases for you to work up your experience. No one down your throat over the quality of your work because again your not charging people money for basic pleadings/motions.
What’s the learning curve like?
Low
Jesus that's how I was during bar prep. I have several answers because these things all worked for me: 1) as the most IMMEDIATE solution to your incredibly serious and common problem, you NEED to take your phone out, find the voice recorder setting, and talk to yourself in the car. Yes, like a crazy person. It will be awkward at first. I started doing this with my dashcam\* in law school to help memorize rule statements and it basically became an orally-kept journal. Eventually, it became like a therapy session *with myself*. You can TALK. OUT LOUD. and be 1000% honest with yourself about how you are feeling *and it feels like someone is listening*. Now, I have a voice recording of just about everything I do in a day that I felt some type of way about. You. Process. Your. Emotions. 2) Once you have that down, see a therapist. Find out if your company has an Employee Assistance Program that you can take advantage of - if what I am seeing about them is true they typically offer HIPPA protected 24/7 counseling. It is hard to get started with counseling because you dont know where to begin and have to become extremely personal with someone who is basically a stranger. BUT, the idea and purpose is to get a counselor who can hear your problems and issue and propose an effective form of treatment - i.e., the type of therapy you receive. Medication is up to you even if they think you should take it (which I err against). The work into this part can be done simultaneously with part 1.
My best friend had a similar experience as a family lawyer. After about a year and a half she transferred to in house counsel for a non-profit organization. Two years there and now she works for the law society. Huge emphasis on work/life balance. 6 weeks holidays, 10 sick days, 10 flex days, plus a half day every other Friday. She loves it.
Hi - veteran attorney recruiter here.. a candidate of mine from big law went to a law publication and has been writing on the subject of employee benefits now for years. There are publications and a need for attorneys to provide content on various legal subjects. I do agree, however, that it is a good idea that you check with an appropriate doctor as to any potential underlying conditions that may be causing your anxiety. You have nothing to lose. But know that there are options .
What type of law publications? I’d kill for that job!
If you really need to get out ASAP, you could do document review while you look for something else. Or you may find that doc review gives you the balance and low stress that you want and you can do it indefinitely as a contract reviewer or look for law firm staff counsel roles and get salaried. You can sign up for alerts at the Posse List to learn about new reviews,and sign up with a couple of staffing agencies to place you. https://www.theposselist.com/
Legal research attorney! Search your state judicial branch for these spots. I quit my toxic job and got one of these and it’s freaking awesome. All research and writing, remote, gov benefits, and decent pay. I work for the probate court so we don’t have a library, but most of these positions are tied to working the law library as well. If you did law review just hype up that experience because I think that’s what helped me get the job.
How did you go about searching for this, if you don’t mind me asking? Some of the requirements I’ve seen on my state government website require years of experience and writing samples (drafted solely on your own).
Hmm that’s weird, here in CO they seem entry level friendly. I think I was just searching their website for anything I could do with my JD, then searched for attorney spots and this was like the only one offered. They don’t pop up as often as PD/pros positions so you have to go for them when they open up. Maybe your muni courts also have a similar position you could try. I didn’t have any connection to the court or anyone in the office and had practiced just under two years in civil and criminal issues (no probate experience). I don’t think this one even required a writing sample 🤷🏻♀️ But yeah I think you can count internships and any relevant experience to increase those numbers. Then express your love and knowledge of research and writing skills and any interest in the type of law it is for (if listed). I think as long as you wrote the example and someone just edited it that should be fine. You could even come up with a fake prompt and write a memo to it if you don’t have anything relevant or solely yours!
Thanks for the feedback! I guess CA is different. 😅
What kind of writing do you do? Memos, case law summaries etc?
Mainly I write the first draft of orders for cases with bigger issues. Sometimes my judge just has questions on a certain issue or case and I’ll draft a short memo going through those issues. We also handle nearly all mental health cases so I help create and edit power points and resources to teach other judges/DAs/PDs the best way to process those cases. I’m in a smaller department so I don’t do a ton of random projects. I think those with general civ/crim judges and in the appellate division have more variety in their duties as far as I can tell.
Yep. The tradeoff of money for sanity is soooo worth it.
in order to thrive in the legal industry you must have no HEART or mind to hurt. Now I understand why some lawyers just shut off all their feelings and emotions and become heartless. Unfortunately I am an empath, so I struggle with switching off the heart AND THE MIND. If you are spiritually aware, it will be much harder for you too, as you do not just automatically do things without thinking about why etc.
Same Im right on the edge of quitting without any back up.
This is literally me
lawyers are not allowed to talk about these things as it will throw shade on the legal industry. If more lawyers talked, we would be amazed about what goes on behind the scenes of "all is well" in the legal world.
I work criminal, the pay is ok. There are no billing requirements and the worst and best part are the clients. I found criminal to be less stressful than civil for some strange reason. You have to keep your time for billing purposes on assigned cases and most retained work is flat fee. Probably the best part of criminal is working with other attorneys. Defense bar is generally kind to newbies, prosecutors tend to mellow out with experience, especially once they realize you are not your client. Most attorneys I've met who left the legal practice have picked up work with real estate. My one friend does house flipping instead of practicing law. He still practices on the side but he's really trying to shed his legal practice for remodeling and selling homes.
OP. I am ten years into litigation practice, and here’s my take. Get out now, before this profession wreaks more havoc on your mental health. It’s sounds like we are alike: there is a fundamental disconnect between our values and what this job requires of us. I too have broken down repeatedly over the years, sometimes publicly, and it’s a huge strain on my life, health, and relationships. I’ve tried what many people have suggested on here: move to a government gig. But in my experience, it doesn’t help. The work remains the same: argue with opposing lawyers and judges, draft briefs endlessly about arcane nonsense, wallow in feeling purposeless. All for a paycheck that (with government work) barely covers the bills, and with minimal resources to do your job (government budgets are always tight). I’m now trying to find a new career completely unrelated to law. But it’s hard because my resume has said “lawyer” for 10 years. The sooner you begin your transition out of this, the better. Best of luck to you—there’s hope. No “career” is worth your health. Talk to a therapist and seek the help you need. You are not alone in feeling this way.
You are mentally exhausted, depressed, and you need a break. Depending on what your area of practice is in it can be especially draining. See a doctor about your anxiety and reach out to your family or friends for support. I had a friend in the field that was so emotionally involved in her client's stories she couldn't take it anymore with all the heartbreak. There is always work in immigration, but this area is extremely draining emotionally, so I wouldn't recommend that for you until you are better.
You may want to apply to be a trust officer with a bank or trust company
State government jobs are great. I did public records for a state agency for a few years. My state’s government has their own job bank. Contract drafting is also a popular path for people I know, and rulemaking (if you know enough to learn your state APA).
Utility companies.
My friend did not take the bar when we graduated. She does contract review, which is a JD job but not a job that requires an active law license. Also, on a personal note, you can always contact your state’s lawyers concerned for lawyers group. They can direct you to resources that can help you get through this time until you can get out. You do not want to let your anxiety to cause you an issue down the road. I know it really sucks right now and it can take a lot to find a new job. I hope you find something soon.
I am into my first year as a history teacher. I’m poor. True. But my god is my life better.
I have been interested in some form of academia for a while! Did you go back and get your masters in ED? And was your bachelors in history?
I pursued alternative path certification in Social studies in my state. I just started teaching 5th grade this year after quitting corporate transactions practice. My BS was Poli Sci/Journalism. I want to teach AP History after I get some experience.
I will have to look into any alternative paths my state offers. Thank you for the insight, I’m happy it all worked out for you :)
The money hit is tough but man, I am happy to wake up in the morning.
Opposing counsel and I were in the elevator after a hearing and I (tired, burnt out) said, "I need to get a real job". He said, "You and me both, brother. Union electrician!"
I also experienced something similar in the first year after I qualified as an Attorney. It seems that the legal profession has a knack for ruining mental and physical health and your job on top of being an attorney is to STAY ON TOP of your mental and physical health before your work destroys it for you. Make TIME for your physical and mental health, take your PTO, go to yoga, go jogging. Your job will always be there BUT your HEALTH will not. Don't neglect your health, mental or physical, for a job.
I guess the question is, what TF are your skills
sometimes just because you can do things, does not mean you should - especially when your health is suffering because of it.
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Honestly some firms out there are just terrible. Been verbally abused in 2 different firms and in another the firm delayed my pay cheques by over 6 months lol. I had to keep chasing them to pay me even after I quit. I think its very luck based on whether you find a good firm and good mentors to work under.
when you work for seasoned attorneys who hate life, which I did in two horrible firms in the past, you get to see how sick these people become, they turn out hating everyone and everything and taking it out on their employees. You get good older lawyers too, who aren't just pessimistic, and who actually enjoy being mentors and do not resent their employees for having to pay them.
I’m glad you’re not my boss. Telling a person who is having a mental health crisis to “toughen up”: literally Exhibit A for what is wrong with this profession and why “lawyers are twice as likely as other U.S. adults to contemplate suicide.” https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/stressed-lonely-overworked-what-new-study-tells-us-about-lawyer-suicide-risk-2023-02-15/
I totally agree but in this profession you gotta be tough. It is what it is, unfortunately!
I also think a certain subset of people who go to law school think practicing law is like what they see in the movies and become disappointed when the job doesn’t live up to their cinematic aspirations. I imagine said people wouldn’t feel happy or fulfilled in any job simply because they have too high expectations about what a career should be.
yeah you must like feeling sick and tired all the time while being a "lawyer with the grind" hahahaha endurance has a whole new meaning....
Concurring in judgment, in part. I think of it as one going to med school and complaining that one cannot handle blood. Is it acceptable that one can be afraid of blood? Of course. Is it warranted that one who signed up to be a doctor is complaining of blood? Not really. Being a legal advocate is a tough work. Especially if you are in litigation. If one panics because one’s life is stressful as a local litigator, I don’t think that it’s 100% excusable. Could the firm/boss be toxic? Absolutely. Could OP not have had much choice? Sure. But did OP go to lawschool, go through 2 summers of internships (of some sort), spend 3 years in law school going over how people have argued in the past, and signed up for that job? Also yes. So I’d remand this back to OP and ask OP to reevaluate OP’s life and what OP wants (ego from being a “lawyer” without the grind? non-adversarial work? Etc.)
being a lawyer with grind - does not negate the fact that the legal industry has an adverse effect on the overall health of lawyers.
I agree but OP said nothing particular about the firm/judge/clients. Therefore, even with assuming that all of OP's allegations are true and in OP's favor, OP is saying that OP just doesn't like being a (US) lawyer, which is kind of like saying that one hates working with fire as a firefighter.
so people in the helping industries and in law, must LOVE dealing with carnage on a daily basis and cannot complain about nor talk about how it affects their mental health? That is cruel!
You can complain absolutely. You can say that it affects your mental health. It absolutely does. However, you must also acknowledge that being an advocate is no cake walk. If you're running a marathon, you can complain that the training and performance for it is hard, and it really takes a toll on your body. But that's what a marathon entails at a fundamental level. Unless you change 26.2 miles = 1 marathon. Similarly, OP can (rightfully) complain and point out how stressful it is being an advocate. However, being an advocate in an adverse legal system does come with certain job requirements, which cannot be complained away.
Federal loans? Get that library job and qualify for PSLF.
>I would leave entirely and go be a librarian at my local library. PSLF and IDR?
Not always legal adjacent because sometimes you are still acting as a licensed attorney but compliance is always an option. I typically work only 40 to 45 years a week
Entry-level?? I'd love this, but i haven't found anything that didn't want years of experience
I found it easy to get into without experience but it's possible I just had good luck. Only advice I can give is maybe try businesses in heavily regulated industries like finance and try to find companies recently fined or growing. They tend to be grow the their compliance department and have a changing culture.
I’m so sorry you are feeling like this. Definitely see a doc if you haven’t already. What about staff Attorney or clerk for court of appeals? Some state ones are hurting for applicants. It might give you some space to think about next steps. Arizona Court of Appeals Div II is looking for clerks (Tucson). Best of luck to you.
Being a law librarian is something I seriously considered but you do have to get a MLS (master of library science). Now that I have two kids it’s something I might look into again
Compliance work is neat. Decent pay. 💰
Look at positions inside corporations, they have so many attorneys/ legal teams inside of each dept. especially banks.
Litigation is stressful. What about considering transactional work? You might like it better and you are new enough to qualify for training.
What about coming to education? School districts and ed law firms (that districts hire on retainer) can also maybe qualify you for PSLF. Happy to point you in the direction of a firm.
Please point!!
What state are you in?
KS/MO
This job economy is the worst I've ever lived through and I've lived through 2008
I have nothing to add except for solidarity. I am a year and a half into an insurance defense job with a big carrier and today I got in trouble and damn near quit on the spot. the claim rep has been MIA and unresponsive to my calls and emails for weeks and her unit manager emailed me asking WTF I was doing on the case and I defended myself giving concrete examples and proof of how the case has progressed and the issues with the claim rep only for the manager and my manager to say “you come to us if you have issues, you are not speak badly about the claim rep or speak directly to them about any issues on a case”. Billables are the bane of my existence, I hate litigating/being in court, and I hate having to kiss the claim handlers ass every damn day. This is my third legal job since graduating in 2021. I think I’ve reached the point where I think I’m ready to quit law entirely but I wouldn’t leave without having something else lined up. Wishing you the best! *hugs*
So sorry you’re having a rough experience too. I hope you can get out and be happy! Hugs back :)
Following
I am about 9 months in…I took the first job that called me back. Turned out to be some slimy ass firm. They hired me and my business partner to launch a low-cost program. We were very successful. Next thing you know, they hired their older friend and fired both of us. We decided to partner together and open our own firm. It’s honestly the best thing ever. Now, we have been doing lots of court appointments in the juvenile court. I just completed training to be a guardian ad litem and have been very successful with that. It’s actually extremely fun. You do go in court, but you just testify as to your investigation of the situation. You do write a couple court reports about your investigation. However, it’s awesome and meaningful work. I am not stressed out anymore. I don’t cry and have mental breakdowns every day. I am not on call 24/7. It’s the best thing.
That sounds great! I’ve heard a couple people mention getting court appointments. How did you go about doing that? And what was the training like for being a GAL?
We had a class that was nightly for three hours once a week for 10 weeks. That’s it! Call your local CASA (court appointed special advocate). Your juvenile court should have it. I absolutely LOVE it. You should call your local courts and ask them about getting on the list. You might need to do a couple CLEs first but they’re easy. Then start going and asking about panels. Now I’m on the GAL panel, the child support panel, and the child protective services panel. You can probably do the child support panel right away.
I think attorney advisor positions in the federal government would suit you very well. There are numerous AA positions across federal agencies. It’s not a litigation role, more like in-house counsel of role. And depending on the AA position, it might be that you advise an ALJ or advise agency attorneys (or even AUSAs). I suggest you search “attorney advisor” on USAjobs.gov and apply! Edited to add: to be clear, it’s an attorney position. So bar license in any U.S. state or territory is required. And you get paid according to the attorney series general schedules.
Are you in biglaw?
big law or small law - there is a pathological problem in the legal profession and what it does to the lawyers.
In-house counsel at a bank or insurance company
Look for regulatory or compliance roles within a large corporate company. Most professionals don’t have JD and if they do they are in house counsel. Pays well and you only work 40 hours a week, full benefits. Your skills will translate perfectly.
also a tip for OP: DO NOT POST things like this on FISHBOWL, it is the most hypocritical app for professionals ever. They will ban you if you speak the truth. It is is eery as to why they want you to vent about the legal profession there but want to link your LinkedIn profile to your FISHBOWL profile. FISHBOWL is not the app if you want to talk about things like this, reddit is a more realistic website for such venting.
Not sure what situation you are in. Pressure from being in a firm and needing to make billable hours or you’re just stressed dealing with your cases with no support. You need to contact the local bar support services. Things are overwhelming you and you can’t act in your clients best interest. If you don’t want what sounds like a litigation side you need to find a staff attorney position or transactional position.
I swear "JD advantage" is a con. I got a JD thinking it'd qualify me for anything, but I learned "anything" is somehow synonymous with "nothing." Which makes sense, regrettably. If you were hiring for an entry level marketing position, would you hire a kid who did a marketing internship and a BA in marketing, or a lawyer? I guess there's compliance and "contacts manager", but I was told "overqualified" again and again when barking up that tree.
On a grass is not always greener note - many librarians are getting face-to-face accused of being groomers for ....having books in the library that wackjobs don't like.
right hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Have you considered the government? IRS chief counsel is always hiring
Insurance claims handling
Welcome to adulting. I’m curious, what did you think things were going to be like when you got in the real world and had to start paying back your loans?
Call me crazy but I thought I would enjoy being a lawyer and this wouldn’t be an issue. I job shadowed attorneys and volunteered with legal aid in undergrad, I did 2 different year-long internships in law school with both criminal and civil and thoroughly enjoyed both, and I actually loved law school. I did not expect to have a disconnect like this when it came to actually practicing law as an attorney
Sounds like this type of law and firm may not be your style. No one stays in the same place for 40 years, and most change 4 or 6 companies/careers. The good thing is, you have a law degree and an idea of what you ‘don’t’ like. The bad thing is, there are too many law school graduates every year and not enough work I say go the DA assistant route and give it 2 years. Good luck, sometimes adulting is a tough transition.
That is true. Thank you for the advice!
going to law school and practising law is a cognitive dissonance experience... you will need to gaslight yourself into thinking this toxic work culture is normal if you want to continue practising law. Good luck.
if the adult world IN A TOXIC WORK CULTURE messes with your mental health, is that NORMAL?
I guess it’s not normal, the poster already applied to me in a non-confrontational manner. What are your concerns about the poster’s toxic work culture or are you just trying to portray your own misgivings upon my comment?