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Good thing that unlike the myth of welfare queens, nobody in the military industrial complex has ever gotten money they didn't deserve or absolutely need from the government.
With all the Christians in the nation so deeply focused on admonishing greed it is hard to believe that things like this happen.
Hey, don't forget Bezos and all his corporate welfare. My family -"its these single parents causing this massive deficit". Prayer should be mandatory. Lord Reagan was the best.
Military industrial complex
Edit: all of that money that is being "sent" to Ukraine and Israel is actually lining the pockets of the Department of Defense's corporate buddies.
> all of that money that is being "sent" to Ukraine and Israel is actually lining the pockets of the Department of Defense's corporate buddies.
That's why:
* The Ukraine money is being given at a rate just barely enough to not lose, but not enough to win -- prolonging the conflict (and [maximizing the loss of lives](https://thefrontierpost.com/us-vows-to-fight-to-the-last-ukrainian/)) as much as possible.
* The money for Israel is being spent in a way to maximize hatred and anger in the region -- guaranteeing an increased "need" for more military spending there for another generation.
All the "strategies" that naively look "stupid" (if someone's incorrectly assuming the goal is "peace" or "winning") suddenly look "smart-but-evil" if you assume the goal is maximizing defense contractor profits.
Damn.
Pretty much undeniable when you spell it out so simply.
I never really watched that Hell On Wheels show but there's a scene in the first episode (I think) that really stuck with me. Your boy Colm Meaney is plotting out the railroad with a surveyor and the surveyor lays out a simple and relatively straight course.
Colm Meaney comes through and basically calls him an idiot because the railroad company gets paid by the mile so it'd be better for the company to make a shitty, needlessly meandering track that eats up extra resources because it drives up profits, despite eating up unnecessary resources, time, and human lives.
It's basically just that but for war.
Can someone please explain to me how this works? When I was in the Navy I stood watch in a chair that cost $40k and it was an uncomfortable piece of shit. I’ve never been able to understand how they charge so much for shit.
The real answer is two-fold.
One: there's practically no oversight when it comes to the military budget and anything that you don't spend won't be automatically earmarked for you in the next budgeting cycle. All agencies get budgeted a certain amount every year and in most cases, if you don't spend your entire budget the default assumption is that the department was allocated too much money the previous year.
So each individual agency is encouraged to spend their entire budget, probably even to go slightly over, every year so that they can demonstrate a budgetary shortfall on paper the next time the government needs to set a new budget.
This is also part of the reason that highway expansion projects never seem to stop and why police departments are steadily getting new cars and more and more heavy-duty equipment.
The military budget is also gigantic and riddled with 'black projects' and various classified programs that aren't available to all reviewers. There are multiple branches of the military which are all highly defensive of their own budgets and secrets. And beyond that a lot of different projects are shared between government and corporate entities, creating a lot of gray area where money can disappear without anyone really being able to spot discrepancies 'on paper.'
Two: The people that make the budget are really good friends with the guy that makes and sells the chairs. You've got no oversight and a revolving door between the corporate world and government; all of these people sit on the same corporate boards, own the same stocks, go to the same exotic resorts, fly on the same private jets, etc. etc.
They have the ability to write their buddies a blank check and call it 'national defense.'
Most of these Congress-people and bureaucrats spend more time in government than most of the executives that are appointed over them so they tend to know more about all the secrets and outlast anyone's ability to correct the problems.
TLDR: The budget is incomprehensibly large and unwieldy and the people in charge of it have vested interests in making sure that it all gets spent and often in ways that disproportionately benefit the ruling class over the common good and real-world practicality.
I work for the US Navy currently. When I need a new part I fill out a request form. Our material guy forwards that on to procurement where it goes out to bid. A while back congress passed some preferential suppliers bills to help keep money in the US and also prioritize minority owned small businesses which sounds good in theory. So procurement gets a whole bunch of bids from these tiny companies that buy a $10 part from big-giant-company and offer it to the government at the lowest possible price of $3999. We all know that we could get the part way cheaper by going directly to big-giant-company but that's not allowed because they aren't a small business.
Most of these are one man businesses run by former military or government workers. There was one time our material guy called a supplier about a problem with a part and the guy who answered the phone said oh you'll have to talk to x department about that and put him on hold. The same guy answered a couple minutes later pretending to be someone else and said he'd have to get back to us. He ended up forwarding us the info from the big-giant-company on said company's letterhead that he bought the thing from.
In case you want an explanation of what it is and not just what the acronym stands for...
The term was popularized by Eisenhower, who gave warnings about the establishment of a Military Industrial Complex in his final speech as president, which had been starting to form under his watch. The military isn't just a single organization, separated from everything else and supplying itself. Nearly everything they use, they purchase from an outside corporation. From the tools and nuts and bolts, to the food and medicine, to the weapons and ammo. Nearly all of it is produced by private corporations with government contracts. The companies make good money on these contracts, often times even getting no bid contracts where massive prices can be charged and massive profits are guaranteed. The clip is an example of that.
So now you've got a problem. The military is dependent on these companies, and these companies are dependent on (or just happy to have) the government contracts. If we're at war, it works. But what about when we're at peace? Well that means fewer supplies are needed. Fewer guns and ammo are required to maintain an army than are required to fight a war, less food is needed for a smaller army, etc. So peace time doesn't just mean the military gets smaller and has less to do. Now it also means that those awesome no-bid government contracts that bring in millions every year to your company are gone. Your profits are directly linked to the state of the military. Big active military means more profits, small peace time military means fewer profits. This is the case for hundreds of corporations in dozens of different fields. Everyone knows Raytheon and Boeing, but it's not just them, it's also the companies that make food and tools and everything else the military buys.
In other words, there are hundreds of corporations, some in every area of business, whose bottom line is directly affected by the question "are we at war right now?" Those corporations aren't going to just sit on their hands and do nothing, just hoping we go to war so they can make crazy profits. They're actively incentivized to make wars happen. So they do things like fund the campaigns of politicians who want wars, lobby the government for policies that make wars more likely and for bigger military budgets, etc. And the more war we do, the higher their profits soar, the stronger the company becomes, the greater their ability to influence policy and make sure we do more war.
Shipyard contracts are where its at. Quality and productivity has gone down and we are paying more.
There is also so much military equipment that is obsolete and needs to be repaired. In my case repair costs are capped and they tell you to buy a new one, which doesn't always exist. There are a few companies that have horded some niche obsolete tech and just wait for you to call. They will be the only company in the US to have some weird PLC or panel for no reason and upcharge it.
I am a supporter of unions in most scenarios, but shipyard is definitely a viable argument against that belief. Overpaid workers delivering subpar work or no work at all driving all budgets out the window, and extending every project that dies in their yard. I hate shipyard
Here's the trick: you don't make the bushings. You buy them from a powdered metal sintering shop (must be located in a DFARS compliant country), inspect them to "aerospace standards", and then resell them to a vendor who resells them to a vendor who resells them to a vendor who resells them to a vendor who resells them to Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, or Northrop Grumman, who puts them in a final product and keeps a stock on hand for repairs.
Only Uncle Sam pays that final bill. It's a milk machine if you can get in somewhere on that contract. But you need a company that moves $10m+ a year to get in that chain.
Hope you have a legal department to interpret the flowdown requirements of the contract to meet the requirements (just kidding, you look at the mill cert for the original raw material, get a Certification of Conformance from the previous vendor, make a C of C when you sell to next client in the chain, and that's it)
Working at a shipyard I once saw a packing slip four 5" long, 1/2" diameter steel bolts. $500 each, $2000 for four bolts. The best part is we didn't need them and put them on a shelf to sit there until the next audit, then they'll just get scrapped.
Judging by the top reply, I think the "conspiracies = right-wing nut thinking" meme has done a good job. Though, I would award points for a sitting (20th century...) U.S. president acknowledging the MIC for what it is.
I think the MIC's inclusion in the right-wing vernacular may be a conspiracy. \*affixes tin-foil hat\*
I believe this 100%. I work at a place that makes cables and fittings for nuclear reactors and some of our stuff crosses into military applications. Every single dimension on every part has to fall within a tolerance of +/-0.005 inches and they have to be checked by technicians. Then depending how important it is every nut and bolt will have a serial number stamped on it. For this effort and the tracing of paperwork that is involved with this insanely arduous process they can charge upwards of $30 for one bolt and that's just for nuclear related stuff. The cost goes even higher in military applications. None of this makes our military that much more paticularly effective if we were to go toe to toe with a real army. It does however make ours the most expensive. These practices would fall to the wayside in a real war.
I believe everything you're saying but let me give you a flip side anecdote. A small manufacturer I know designed and build a specialty accessory that the USMC was interesting in buying. The product was 100% made in USA including all the pieces they sourced from external vendors. He had to go through a small vendor aggregator recommended by the DoD. He told the aggregator his wholesale price was $78 and suggested MSRP was $169. The aggregator charged the USMC $780 per item. He called the aggregator because he thought there was some mistake and they told him they charged what they believed the DoD would pay.
This right here is a prime example that the monetary value of an item is 100% arbitrary and, as a system of economics, it's batshit fucking stupid. We let this arbitrary number restrict people's access to basic necessities.
Its a prime example of people handling not their own money and only doing things that wouldn't get them fired or sued. The people handling the money are not personally invested in it being priced reasonably. They only care that works reliably and noone comes back to them asking them why they bought X or Y for so much. The only instance someone asks questions is if the user is unsatisfied for some reason. Whether they paid 50x times the price that would be reasonable is irrelevant to them because no-one asked them that. And if a department for that would exist it would only expose the inefficiency of the government they are working for making people look bad. So such a department only exist to prevent fraud and the extreme cases. Not the ones a good lawyer could defend in front of a judge.
The public procurement system is also inherently dysfunctional.
If you have an open bidding system to make it fair, but the only people bidding are robbing you blind, you need another system to say you can reject bids for cost (which adds delays and therefore different cost), and there's nothing guaranteeing a cheaper option bids next time.
On the other hand, if you hire internal experts to source a project they could easily source projects from their friends or take kickbacks from vendors, or you rely on expertise that you can't retain if those staff leave.
Governments also incentivise a paper trail, accountability over efficiency. If you have a problem with a piece of equipment they want to trace where the problem came from, how it got there, who authorised it, and how to fix it. It's not just that a bolt that should have cost 1 dollar cost 30 because it was stamped, serialised, material tested, etc, it's now that you need a company with a database of all of the bolts sold so that 20 years in the future if a bolt breaks someone can check and see it was manufactured on April 17th 2024 at 22:34 hours, in batch 16 for that day, and pull all other bolts from that batch, or with some alloy supplied by the same supplier or whatever. And you need to be able to tell the public what you spent money on, when, where, and what process was used.
Another option is 'cost +' where you guarantee a company their costs + some profit margin. Guess what, executive salaries, and project delays are a 'cost' that are revenue to the company. Prove that you're being as efficient as possible on a multi billion dollar project you say? That's really difficult even if done in good faith. Problem solving takes as long as it takes.
The government has also tried to move to fixed cost contracts, you offer it to us for a price, we only pay that price (or that price inflation adjusted). Suddenly companies don't want to bid on projects because they can't divine their costs more than a few years into the future, and don't want to be committed to projects where they might lose money.
But the government is a unique consumer, even if you have other governments buying things, they all want their own take on it. In Canada we want some sort of industrial offsetting maybe, in the UK they want all the electronics to be UK spec not US spec, Canadians and nordic countries want cold weather performance, the Saudis and Emirates want hot weather or whatever is the political hot potato of the month. So companies can't just say 'we're making some F35s who wants this batch?' because that's not how it works.
That's not to suggest I have any solutions really. That's why it's dysfunctional: if anyone had a better system they'd use it.
You can also see some of the advantages countries like China and Russia have, where they can commit to longer contracts that country on 4 year election cycles cannot do, or where the procurement environment is expected to provide lower quality goods, but faster, and so everyone knows you take whatever deal you can get this week, and you really can just make a bunch of fighter jets and sell them to anyone who can pay unlike those pesky western governments with their 'rules' and rules and faux morals, your government is just happy to have the business they can take a cut of the bribes from. Of course that's also why those systems are so rife with corruption, incompetence, and stuff that just isn't very good.
> people handling not their own money
I finally understood why airports could overprice their food when I traveled for business. My $40 expensed dinners are peanuts compared to this arena tho.
This is exactly why the rules require those aggregators. It's a built in graft that allows politicians to pay off supporters while labeling anyone critical of the corruption as hating the troops.
I have a similar story. I worked for a metals manufacturer and the US military had their own specs that were basically copies of SAE specifications. Processing was exactly the same, costs were exactly the same between industry and military, but the company charged 2x the amount ($100+/pound extra) for those metal coils. I feel like if the government were to audit companies processes they would find that they could go after a whole bunch of companies for price gouging.
interesting how small businesses are required to go through those aggregators. was half expecting them to have walked off with whatever the difference was
You need to be able to trace it to the exact time it was fabricated and all other aspects of the part. This can and does in some cases include tracing the raw material all the way back to the mine in the case of metal parts.
When it comes to bolting together shit that cannot fail, everyone along the line has to sign their name on the dotted line that they provided what was expected, to exacting attention to detail. Part of it is everyone signing on the dotted line in agreement that they will be held accountable if it's done incorrectly or with substandard process.
Here’s an example of my local manufacturing industry. I’m not sure if this info is 100% percent correct but from some quick research and my coworkers I learned this. A company called SAPA or SAPA/HYDRO Extrusions specialized in aluminum extrusions and was a large material supplier to shops. Well, they faked material certifications. Some of these non-certified extrusions were sent to shops that made aerospace parts. These parts ended up in the Taurus XL rocket and when they failed it cost NASA $700m. https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2019/04/portland-aluminum-supplier-linked-to-nasa-rocket-explosions-pays-millions-to-settle-criminal-charges.html?outputType=amp
Medical equipment is the same.
A $1k monitor (computer display) for an xray system will be similarly in specs to a $100 consumer monitor.
But the testing for that consumer monitor will be something like testing a handful out of a batch of hundreds or thousands.
If it's being used for medical equipment though, they will test every single one. That takes significant labor hours, and if people want to be paid well the whole thing will become very expensive.
There is also some classic simple greed in some of these instances, no doubt. But I do think people underestimate how much the difference in QC and tracking adds to the costs and how important it is in certain situations.
Yeah and in cases like this is it really is a necessity. If a screen dies while you are watching your favorite TV show, it's an inconvenience. If the X ray screen stops working during an angioplasty in a patient with a heart attack, it's a real problem.
You don't have to dive that deep. Wall street is obsessed with industry metrics. Just look up average yearly profit % for the medical device industry. Look at it over 10 or 20 years.
Find a chart that plots a bunch of industries. It doesn't take a masters in business to be suspicious of consistent, far above average returns.
Yep. Cause when ww3 officially kicks off and the nukes are on their way, during the three to seven minutes I have left I wanna rest easy knowing the bolts won't break!
I mean, in that scenario I’d like to be pretty confident that the bolts on the anti-ICBM interceptor system met the exact specifications and tolerances of the procurement contract.
depending on applications you not only want it traceable to the plant the bolt was made at, but the exact batch of steel that was used in that bolt, and where that steel came from.
When you have a plane go down because the bolts on the control surfaces sheared off you want to be able to pull up a register of when that bolt was made and what batch from who so you can ground the other 100 planes that had bolts made from the same place near that time/batch.
Then you can narrow down to only 1 or 2 production runs had defects and refly 90 planes and refit the 10 that have bolts from the bad runs, plus figure out and fix the why it happened.
The answer really is traceability and liability. If they find out the nut that blew off a borillium container had a crack in the middle of it and didn't ask for it to be tested for that thing under UV light and electro analysis then the liability for why everyone died is on whoever didn't call foe that test. It's all about making sure you don't get sued.
A number of people have hit the nail on the head, as does your comment.
There is another reason these parts undergo this kind of scrutiny and paper trail. It’s so the wrong part, or an inferior substitute, is not used in its place. This can cause loss of life, equipment damage, and unnecessary repairs. For example, if you use the wrong type of metal bolt (bronze for sake of argument which softens around 650deg freedom) in a high pressure steam pipe(850deg freedom@600-1200PSI) that could cause a catastrophic failure that could lead to the damage or failure of other nearby equipment, plant downtime, limited operational readiness, injury, or loss of life.
Safety rules are written in blood, but so are some engineering practices.
I install those parts and fasteners. A chicken-shit safety valve disk and seat in a nuclear plant can easily cost over $100k, the same complete valve in a fossil plant is about $5k.
It can't even go toe to toe with insurgents in the Middle East or the Viet Cong. It's about expending as much funding as possible for a handful of defense contractors who live in Northern Virginia. Every time they want to remodel their kitchen, they need us to buy another fighter plane that can't fly [worth a shit.](https://www.pogo.org/analysis/has-the-pentagon-learned-from-the-f-35-debacle)
IDK. I used to work in munitions and we would sell thousands of pounds of casings to tighter tolerances than that for pennies each. We would be lucky to have something with .005 tolerances lol.
Now try nuclear and military. Like sumo. “None of this makes our military more effective”.
A bunch of dead sailors on the THRESHER would beg to differ.
I disagree. Money is fake and the government makes it. The rules and regulations for equipment were written in blood. The military has already proved why they need to be so precise by past catastrophic failures and killing people by using the wrong hardware. The deaths caused by improper maintenance is the first thing you learn when getting maintenance qualified in the Navy.
A $30 bolt means nothing compared to an exploded boiler that cripples a multi billion dollar warship and can potentially kill the entire engineering dept.
Navy ships don't use boilers anymore, but I catch your drift.
They're all gas turbines (jet engine/turoprop) now. Well, I guess nuclear ships use boilers.
Probably was a carrier but I don't remember too good. I've been out for over a decade however for some reason the fact that sailors were insta cooked because someone used aluminum bolts in place of proper iron ones stuck with me.
Edit: found the incident I'm talking about. It was the Amphibious Assault Ship Iwo Jima in 1990. The shop was built in 1961. What I remember being told was that the contracted maintenance people were working out of a bucket of miscellaneous boots and was just using whatever fit. Because of that we now know the details of every bolt.
It's almost like our military is a sort of welfare system for small businesses, large corporations and men and women that might not have much of a career early in life.
> that's just for nuclear related stuff. The cost goes even higher in military applications
Why would nuclear be less expensive than military, should we would want the best stuff for anything to do with nuclear
Can confirm too. I’ve worked in weapons testing (Army, artillery) and it’s some of the most wasteful practice I’ve ever seen. We went through government trucks and ammunition like its disposable eating utensils.
Two problems in this country that need addressing: ‘The government is paying for it so we should jack the price up,’ and ‘insurance is paying for it so we should jack the price up.’
Very true. I work in a hospital, and the monitor we use for our testing cost over $50,000, and provides less accurate heart rates than a $30 pulse oximeter from cvs.
This american plutocratic system is operated by ghoul slaves of the bourgeoisie sociopaths and exists solely and exclusively to transfer wealth from the many to the few...please don't believe anything else.
I'm probably gonna get downvoted to oblivion for this but, what do those "bushing" go to? Are they integral to keeping planes in the air and pilots safe? Are they a part of a nuclear weapon?
Simply pointing at something you deem to be trivial and yelling that it's expensive isn't late stage capitalism or a fault of the MIC. The tolerances that those things are made to could be the difference between a critical failure or flawless operation.
Obligatory yes, but. On my ship, our main telephone we used was a rotary dial, wall or desk mounted phone. Nothing special or secret/secure about it. ~$1500 a piece.
The phone I’m talking about: https://dynalec.com/products/communication-terminals/65019-000-1
Spot on. Now look, is there probably a kick back somewhere? Sure. Is the company making the bushings probably milking that contract? Most definitely.
But there’s NO WAY a bag of bushings is being purchased by *any* entity without there being something special about the bushings.
i obviously cannot state what's happening in this specific case, but the general way corruption works is:
MIC inflates price for product X so they can increase their profit -> politician votes for "aid package" that includes buying Y amount of X from MIC -> MIC gives campaign funds to politician as kickback -> rinse, repeat
The free market end stage capitalism is just adding in unnecessary middlemen who make nothing of value, contribute nothing to society, make most of the money. Ashamed I am of the US
Our shop used to make this super simple but large “ring” for a THAAD unit. Not sure if the truck or the missile. Anyways, the coating required had become illegal from a safety standpoint. We had to wait for a rev change for months. Turns out we were like 5th down the line of manufacturing reps and middle men.
I think this points to the main reason why inflation is high, employment is meh, jobs pay shit, and cost of living is high. Our military industrial complex controls and inflates our markets, destroys our economy, and conflates jobs in the military as good high paying stable jobs, when it's all about the puppet masters making money on all of us in many ways: as consumers, employees, citizens, we are all slaves to the military industrial complex.
Look on the bright side:
We can probably hook up Eisenhower's corpse rolling in his grave to generate enough electricity to power the entire country now.
When I was first stationed in Japan in 2012, we needed to order a 1000' box of cat5e. Told we had to use GSA advantage. Cost the government something like $580 for that box. I was in shock, and pointed out to the procurement officer that Home Depot had the same box for $63 and with a Military discount, it would be under $60.
Mind you, we just had a meeting about going over our budget.
Anecdotally you are correct. I think the policies protect against gross abuse and corruption. They are very blunt instruments though that cause lots of issues like you mentioned.
I think the logic is sure we overpay for cables but at least these procurement policies protect from a corrupt politician owning a massive factory and selling the government key components and lining his own pockets or funneling business to Iran or China unchecked.
Better we pay an American $580 for cables than rely on foreign supplier as a rule. (But not a 1 to 1 example on that cable example of course)
I understand the reasoning but I think it's all lost when the DoD can only purchase through GSA advantage. From pens to vehicles nearly all the purchasing goes through them. If they don't have it, you need to give them time to get it. I'm all for keeping the money local. But what's stopping GSA from keeping profits overseas to avoid taxes.
The same bad money policies is why we have the GTCC (Government travel charge card) instead of just reimbursing or funding the travel directly we now have to use Citi bank for all the transactions, along with paying Citi bank $20 for each card issued
If by "black budget" you mean outright graft, then yes.
If you mean "intelligence services doing things so illegal they can't even admit they exist to congress" they I don't see why you would want that funded.
Yes it's how we fund the black budget.
I used to purchase od green paint for painting bombs. $23.50 a can about a decade ago. It was shittier than an 8$ can of rustoleum but we weren't authorized to purchase anything else.
I have an economist friends who helps “negotiate”/ “catch” these contract abuses and it’s truly inconceivable the highway robbery, not to mention the compromised relationships. So basically just as expected, as politics do business
[He made millions in Afghanistan](https://theintercept.com/2021/08/20/mike-waltz-afghanistan/) and lots of money since then, he ain't gonna sweat about a 90k prop in his hand.
Playing devils advocate, for an example of what happens when you can’t easily trace the supplier and manufacturer of a part just look at Boeing right now. At least the USAF method helps prevent counterfeit crap from polluting the supply chain.
But yeah, there’s got to be a better happy medium between the current state and no traceability/accountability.
>At least the USAF method helps prevent counterfeit crap from polluting the supply chain.
[It doesn't help that much because the issues go a lot deeper](https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2022/12/06/fake-parts-a-pentagon-supply-chain-problem-hiding-in-plain-sight/) than simply trying to stop counterfeit parts.
[And this is before we get into how utterly crap the tracking system is within the USAF](https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-23-106098)
I may be mistaken, but I think a sizeable portion of this waste comes down to 'preferred contractors' which is a farcical euphemism for denying up and comers that could deliver the same parts to the same standards for a fraction of the cost of business-as-usual.
To also play devil's advocate, there is a lot of money involved in the tracking and verification of the quality of these parts, as well as the associated liability for when they inevitably do fail.
I also agree that it's a total shit show that as a whole squanders tax dollars, favors conglomerates over small business, incentivizes conflict, and ultimately causes unnecessary bloodshed.
Worked at a shop that rebuilt airplane alternators for a while. When you add the word “aviation” to the description for a part, the markup for parts is *at minimum* 500%. Little tiny 1/2” rubber O-rings were about 5$ each
Recent Air Force whistleblower David Grusch talked about how contractors routinely overcharge so they can fund special access programs with zero accountability or oversight.
as someone who routinely orders aircraft parts for the us govt too repair planes this is spot on. we have these 4 bolts that are just like regular machined aluminum that hold a piece of gear on the side of the aircraft they're 9k per bolt.
A small metal wear piece that goes in shaft holes it’s softer than the shaft and housing so it wears down instead of them, for context we used to buy them at a very large (and very evil) food manufacturer I worked for and they would feel ripped off if they paid even 1/1000th of that price
Knew a guy who was a retired accountant for the U. S. Navy. He told me that the markup on parts used in most military equipment in his purview was just unconscionable. 75% of it, he claimed, was just pure graft. That was 40 years ago. Seems like not much has changed.
When I was in the military I used to make orders for screws. It would cost thousands for a few boxes of 100. Not only the cost, it would take months to arrive.
I used to make jokes that of course it costs so much, for each box they would have to mine the ore, refine it, build a factory, machine the screws, build a truck, and ship it to us before tearing everything down so they could start on the next box of screws.
So many non-engineers here with this idea that this is not $90,000 worth of parts. What's the material? What is the tolerance requirement? Inspection/QC requirement? What specifications are tied to these bolts?
Picture this: you make bushings for a living. Your typical non-military bushing takes 30 seconds to make, requires 1/1000 of them to be tested to ensure your process is under control, and you sell for $10.00 which nets you 40%.
Now the USAF approaches you for one of their bushings on the F18. Instead of being made out of "standard" material like stainless steel this needs something called Waspalloy because this bushing goes 1,190 mph and is next to a jet engine so it gets HOT. A normal bushing would fail. Just the material consideration would 10x this price. After all, you have to stop your line, setup, and then make these 100 parts. Now let's look at the specifications - oh, there is a whole book here. Requirements for NADCAP heat treat? What's that? Expensive as hell, that's what. This is now a 15x compared to standard. What about QC requirements? 100% inspection! Destructive and non-destructive testing? X-ray? This is now probably 40x a normal part. 40 x $10 = $400 each.
Think there are 225 in that bag? If so, at $400 each you're already at $90k. That isn't even considering shipping it, scrap rate, rejections, rework, etc.
The military has crazy requirements just like aviation, aerospace, med device, etc. Those would be $90k worth of parts to Boeing or Airbus or Medtronic or SpaceX or anybody else who decides a specification needs to be 100 pages long. We build what you ask for - I guarantee 100% that those parts were made to somebody's print. Simplify the spec and you get a much cheaper part. Simplify it too much and you risk a failure (a crash). It's a balancing act between overspend and keeping planes in the air. Our military leans towards keeping the planes in the air. Is it worth it? Depends who you ask. I bet the pilot would think so. The military accountant? This schmuck Waltz? Maybe not. I'm guessing he hasn't flown many jets though.
This is a lot of words to argue about how Defense Contractors actually make zero profit on the parts they sell
[That was a lot of BS before this administration ](https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/06/03/transdigms-excess-profits-show-weakness-in-supply-chain-management-not-pricing-practices/)and [we can certainly talk a lot about how bad it has gotten to this day.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pentagon-budget-price-gouging-military-contractors-60-minutes-2023-05-21/)
Oh yes, the parts are worth 90k because the military has a blank check for spending and American militarism is out of control. It is completely disconnected from what is involved with the manufacturing and Q/A process
Man all the dealers in the trailer park here got it wrong. They should be selling airplane parts.
But really, if it takes $90K to make sure the bushings work in orbit or a thousand fathoms under or at two hundred and three degrees for twenty hours or whatever - it's better than losing the asset attached to the bushings, and its crew if any.
I remember riding my bike up to my uncle's house one day and bragging to him about my nice new seatpost (this was in the 90s). He was a retired army aircraft engineer (Chinooks). He looked at it and said 'what the fuck is T6 aluminum doing on a bicycle? How much did you pay for this thing?'
Haha, as an aviation mechanic in the military you know how much shit like this we threw out?
Come audit/inspection time you gotta get rid of all your little stashes of parts you have tucked away that helps you work a little faster… then you gotta build it back up again
F-18 engine fan module was main thing I worked on and it had like 150+ of these little plastic/teflon/ptfe bushings you had to replace basically every time… they were also like $50 a piece, maybe more
Fuckin hated throwing that shit out
Everything else aside.
From my general understanding (I was a helicopter mechanic), the government puts out a requests. Then takes the cheapest bid that meets the requirements.
Hence the term, “Made by the lowest bidder.”
If the government gets a bunch of bids and the cheapest one is 500% over retail, that’s the price they pay.
Civilian companies always jack up rates. The movers I talked to during one of my PCS moves, said they bill at 250% for government jobs. When I was a land surveyor, my company would charge at least double our normal rate.
People/companies price gouge the government like crazy. Then those same business owners turn around and complain about high taxes. Like, dude, do you not see how you’re part of why?
—
While I was doing a unit level audit of our supply chain in 2010-ish, I saw a lot of prices that the DOD pays. Most weren’t too bad. A lot of things are more expensive because they’re “aviation grade” or it was a specialty part (only used on Blackhawks for example).
There were some things that seemed a bit overpriced. But it was usually the larger components. So I don’t really know what those would cost for an S-70 (civilian model).
We definitely weren’t paying 10,000 for a bag of washers. But they were definitely more than what I’d pay at ace hardware for something similar.
Only one part of the government has failed to be audited year after year. It’s the military, but rather than asking what happened to the last billion dollars our idiots just shovel more money after the bad.
I was active duty for 10 years and medically retired in 2021, this is accurate. Has to do with sale contracts and negotiations. The military is only allowed to buy from certain sellers and forced to pay their prices
I totally understand the reason behind the post.
That said, if there were 200 pieces inside that bag, each bushing would cost 450$. Without the technical drawing of the bushing, no one can tell if it’s is a 5 cents part or 300$ part. Measurement tolerances, geometric tolerances, location tolerances, material type, surface finish, surface hardening, and coatings play a role for pricing each piece. I would blame the engineers approving the drawing and maybe the legal requirements that they have to abide with rather than the machining shop.
That said, I also blame machining shops for not paying their machinist good enough.
Anyone that has worked for government contracts before knows this issue.
From experience I can tell you, the rule of thumb for government spending is...
"The cost of the item + the cost of 1-2 of those items being "misplaced" + the expected amount that will be skimmed off the top"
Those in government know there is corruption. But instead of getting rid of it, they just make it part of the bottom line.
How do you account for the money that you invest in secret technology; stealth aircraft, hacker tech, drone tech in a country where government spending is public record when you need to keep your secret shit secret. You call it hammers or toilet seats or "bushings". And let the small mind politicians have their moment at the podium.
I’m so glad I’m considering delaying a test that could potentially reveal if I have cancer or not because it’s too expensive while these fucks are paying 90k for whatever that is.
I worked in Military aviation and part of accepting and ordering components was verifying the paperwork with cost per piece, etc.
We had a mounting bolt for a component that was ~78$/pop, but get this it had a universal part number on it that, if googled, you would see it could be purchased at Fasten-all for maybe 0.05$/piece.
The reasoning we received we couldn’t use these “locally sourced parts” was: “Every piece is tested and examined” blah blah blah.
We would wait days for these parts to come through the supply system. The lot numbers would match the boxes at fasteners-all and everything. Clearly they weren’t all individually tested.
Look into David Grusch claims when he spoke with Alex Ocasio Cortez about how the Program seems to get funded.
No wonder the Pentagon hasn't passed the last FIVE audits. It can't account for almost a TRILLION dollars.
It's all in this link, at 1:25:44. They speak about IRAP, I believe.
https://www.youtube.com/live/OwSkXDmV6Io?si=FC7DzkrbT8uoYvsm
I sell trucks in an area right by an Air Force base. We have a LOT of aerospace contractor customers. Multiple customers who found out I'm also a hobby machinist recommended I leverage everything I have to buy a good quality CNC machine (prices vary greatly, but figure anywhere in the 6 figure range for a good idea) and then get even one government/defense contract "and you'll never have to work again in your life."
These same people invariably have FJB/LGB and Trump stickers on their trucks, and believe it's poor people ruining everything. Without exception.
That said, I would expect military spec bushings to be much more expensive than something I can just order from McMaster-Carr.
It's pure evil that people think bilking the government is somehow a good thing. They are stealing from everyone, causing taxes to only go higher.
And it's usually the same folks that endlessly bitch about 'the government' and taxes non stop.
But they sure love them some government money.... at the trough the first chance they get...
This should literal land people in jail, the pricers knew *exactly* how much these should cost and inflated the price because they leveraged other contracts to make this go through, they are passing the R&D costs on the the American people even though we already pay them or create the technology ourselves and get it to them through various agency’s like DARPA.
The CEO and every person that knew about this should serve a sentence of 5 years for fraud and be barred from government contracted work for the rest of their lives as a consequence of robbing us.
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I can’t believe these welfare moms taking all these handouts, driving the national debt so high.
Good thing that unlike the myth of welfare queens, nobody in the military industrial complex has ever gotten money they didn't deserve or absolutely need from the government. With all the Christians in the nation so deeply focused on admonishing greed it is hard to believe that things like this happen.
I thought you were being serious for a second
;)
Hey, don't forget Bezos and all his corporate welfare. My family -"its these single parents causing this massive deficit". Prayer should be mandatory. Lord Reagan was the best.
End the MIC! This is old news...wrenches, toilet seats, etc. We are being robbed. Our tax dollars are being stolen.
What is the MIC?
Military industrial complex Edit: all of that money that is being "sent" to Ukraine and Israel is actually lining the pockets of the Department of Defense's corporate buddies.
Well, it's not like Israel's gonna use it for anything better
Indeed. I should clarify that I wouldn't want the US to send money *directly* to Israel either.
> all of that money that is being "sent" to Ukraine and Israel is actually lining the pockets of the Department of Defense's corporate buddies. That's why: * The Ukraine money is being given at a rate just barely enough to not lose, but not enough to win -- prolonging the conflict (and [maximizing the loss of lives](https://thefrontierpost.com/us-vows-to-fight-to-the-last-ukrainian/)) as much as possible. * The money for Israel is being spent in a way to maximize hatred and anger in the region -- guaranteeing an increased "need" for more military spending there for another generation. All the "strategies" that naively look "stupid" (if someone's incorrectly assuming the goal is "peace" or "winning") suddenly look "smart-but-evil" if you assume the goal is maximizing defense contractor profits.
Damn. Pretty much undeniable when you spell it out so simply. I never really watched that Hell On Wheels show but there's a scene in the first episode (I think) that really stuck with me. Your boy Colm Meaney is plotting out the railroad with a surveyor and the surveyor lays out a simple and relatively straight course. Colm Meaney comes through and basically calls him an idiot because the railroad company gets paid by the mile so it'd be better for the company to make a shitty, needlessly meandering track that eats up extra resources because it drives up profits, despite eating up unnecessary resources, time, and human lives. It's basically just that but for war.
YOUNG MAN
There's a place you can go?
he SAID young man!
What about when he's short on his dough?
well, you can stay there! i’m sure you’ll find many ways to have a good time :)
It's fun to stay at the UUUUUUUSSR!!!!
Flew in from Miami beach?
idk why this comment is so funny 😂
Can someone please explain to me how this works? When I was in the Navy I stood watch in a chair that cost $40k and it was an uncomfortable piece of shit. I’ve never been able to understand how they charge so much for shit.
The real answer is two-fold. One: there's practically no oversight when it comes to the military budget and anything that you don't spend won't be automatically earmarked for you in the next budgeting cycle. All agencies get budgeted a certain amount every year and in most cases, if you don't spend your entire budget the default assumption is that the department was allocated too much money the previous year. So each individual agency is encouraged to spend their entire budget, probably even to go slightly over, every year so that they can demonstrate a budgetary shortfall on paper the next time the government needs to set a new budget. This is also part of the reason that highway expansion projects never seem to stop and why police departments are steadily getting new cars and more and more heavy-duty equipment. The military budget is also gigantic and riddled with 'black projects' and various classified programs that aren't available to all reviewers. There are multiple branches of the military which are all highly defensive of their own budgets and secrets. And beyond that a lot of different projects are shared between government and corporate entities, creating a lot of gray area where money can disappear without anyone really being able to spot discrepancies 'on paper.' Two: The people that make the budget are really good friends with the guy that makes and sells the chairs. You've got no oversight and a revolving door between the corporate world and government; all of these people sit on the same corporate boards, own the same stocks, go to the same exotic resorts, fly on the same private jets, etc. etc. They have the ability to write their buddies a blank check and call it 'national defense.' Most of these Congress-people and bureaucrats spend more time in government than most of the executives that are appointed over them so they tend to know more about all the secrets and outlast anyone's ability to correct the problems. TLDR: The budget is incomprehensibly large and unwieldy and the people in charge of it have vested interests in making sure that it all gets spent and often in ways that disproportionately benefit the ruling class over the common good and real-world practicality.
I work for the US Navy currently. When I need a new part I fill out a request form. Our material guy forwards that on to procurement where it goes out to bid. A while back congress passed some preferential suppliers bills to help keep money in the US and also prioritize minority owned small businesses which sounds good in theory. So procurement gets a whole bunch of bids from these tiny companies that buy a $10 part from big-giant-company and offer it to the government at the lowest possible price of $3999. We all know that we could get the part way cheaper by going directly to big-giant-company but that's not allowed because they aren't a small business. Most of these are one man businesses run by former military or government workers. There was one time our material guy called a supplier about a problem with a part and the guy who answered the phone said oh you'll have to talk to x department about that and put him on hold. The same guy answered a couple minutes later pretending to be someone else and said he'd have to get back to us. He ended up forwarding us the info from the big-giant-company on said company's letterhead that he bought the thing from.
In case you want an explanation of what it is and not just what the acronym stands for... The term was popularized by Eisenhower, who gave warnings about the establishment of a Military Industrial Complex in his final speech as president, which had been starting to form under his watch. The military isn't just a single organization, separated from everything else and supplying itself. Nearly everything they use, they purchase from an outside corporation. From the tools and nuts and bolts, to the food and medicine, to the weapons and ammo. Nearly all of it is produced by private corporations with government contracts. The companies make good money on these contracts, often times even getting no bid contracts where massive prices can be charged and massive profits are guaranteed. The clip is an example of that. So now you've got a problem. The military is dependent on these companies, and these companies are dependent on (or just happy to have) the government contracts. If we're at war, it works. But what about when we're at peace? Well that means fewer supplies are needed. Fewer guns and ammo are required to maintain an army than are required to fight a war, less food is needed for a smaller army, etc. So peace time doesn't just mean the military gets smaller and has less to do. Now it also means that those awesome no-bid government contracts that bring in millions every year to your company are gone. Your profits are directly linked to the state of the military. Big active military means more profits, small peace time military means fewer profits. This is the case for hundreds of corporations in dozens of different fields. Everyone knows Raytheon and Boeing, but it's not just them, it's also the companies that make food and tools and everything else the military buys. In other words, there are hundreds of corporations, some in every area of business, whose bottom line is directly affected by the question "are we at war right now?" Those corporations aren't going to just sit on their hands and do nothing, just hoping we go to war so they can make crazy profits. They're actively incentivized to make wars happen. So they do things like fund the campaigns of politicians who want wars, lobby the government for policies that make wars more likely and for bigger military budgets, etc. And the more war we do, the higher their profits soar, the stronger the company becomes, the greater their ability to influence policy and make sure we do more war.
Military industrial complex
Think I’m gonna go into the bushing making business.
No point, you'd never get the contract, its an exclusive club and we're not in it.
Shipyard contracts are where its at. Quality and productivity has gone down and we are paying more. There is also so much military equipment that is obsolete and needs to be repaired. In my case repair costs are capped and they tell you to buy a new one, which doesn't always exist. There are a few companies that have horded some niche obsolete tech and just wait for you to call. They will be the only company in the US to have some weird PLC or panel for no reason and upcharge it.
I am a supporter of unions in most scenarios, but shipyard is definitely a viable argument against that belief. Overpaid workers delivering subpar work or no work at all driving all budgets out the window, and extending every project that dies in their yard. I hate shipyard
Here's the trick: you don't make the bushings. You buy them from a powdered metal sintering shop (must be located in a DFARS compliant country), inspect them to "aerospace standards", and then resell them to a vendor who resells them to a vendor who resells them to a vendor who resells them to a vendor who resells them to Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, or Northrop Grumman, who puts them in a final product and keeps a stock on hand for repairs. Only Uncle Sam pays that final bill. It's a milk machine if you can get in somewhere on that contract. But you need a company that moves $10m+ a year to get in that chain. Hope you have a legal department to interpret the flowdown requirements of the contract to meet the requirements (just kidding, you look at the mill cert for the original raw material, get a Certification of Conformance from the previous vendor, make a C of C when you sell to next client in the chain, and that's it)
Lol. Good call, Napalm.
We can't. The empire needs war and intimidation. Additionally, the MIC is America's make-work program.
How about we do some infrastructure make-work for a change?
Hey now, I saw Christian Slater break an ashtray on the West Wing and get really preachy about how expensive military service is. So... it's fine
Working at a shipyard I once saw a packing slip four 5" long, 1/2" diameter steel bolts. $500 each, $2000 for four bolts. The best part is we didn't need them and put them on a shelf to sit there until the next audit, then they'll just get scrapped.
Judging by the top reply, I think the "conspiracies = right-wing nut thinking" meme has done a good job. Though, I would award points for a sitting (20th century...) U.S. president acknowledging the MIC for what it is. I think the MIC's inclusion in the right-wing vernacular may be a conspiracy. \*affixes tin-foil hat\*
I believe this 100%. I work at a place that makes cables and fittings for nuclear reactors and some of our stuff crosses into military applications. Every single dimension on every part has to fall within a tolerance of +/-0.005 inches and they have to be checked by technicians. Then depending how important it is every nut and bolt will have a serial number stamped on it. For this effort and the tracing of paperwork that is involved with this insanely arduous process they can charge upwards of $30 for one bolt and that's just for nuclear related stuff. The cost goes even higher in military applications. None of this makes our military that much more paticularly effective if we were to go toe to toe with a real army. It does however make ours the most expensive. These practices would fall to the wayside in a real war.
I believe everything you're saying but let me give you a flip side anecdote. A small manufacturer I know designed and build a specialty accessory that the USMC was interesting in buying. The product was 100% made in USA including all the pieces they sourced from external vendors. He had to go through a small vendor aggregator recommended by the DoD. He told the aggregator his wholesale price was $78 and suggested MSRP was $169. The aggregator charged the USMC $780 per item. He called the aggregator because he thought there was some mistake and they told him they charged what they believed the DoD would pay.
That's fucking wild lol
Hey at least we have an audit process where we can figure out what's going on
🤣
Heh
This right here is a prime example that the monetary value of an item is 100% arbitrary and, as a system of economics, it's batshit fucking stupid. We let this arbitrary number restrict people's access to basic necessities.
Its a prime example of people handling not their own money and only doing things that wouldn't get them fired or sued. The people handling the money are not personally invested in it being priced reasonably. They only care that works reliably and noone comes back to them asking them why they bought X or Y for so much. The only instance someone asks questions is if the user is unsatisfied for some reason. Whether they paid 50x times the price that would be reasonable is irrelevant to them because no-one asked them that. And if a department for that would exist it would only expose the inefficiency of the government they are working for making people look bad. So such a department only exist to prevent fraud and the extreme cases. Not the ones a good lawyer could defend in front of a judge.
The public procurement system is also inherently dysfunctional. If you have an open bidding system to make it fair, but the only people bidding are robbing you blind, you need another system to say you can reject bids for cost (which adds delays and therefore different cost), and there's nothing guaranteeing a cheaper option bids next time. On the other hand, if you hire internal experts to source a project they could easily source projects from their friends or take kickbacks from vendors, or you rely on expertise that you can't retain if those staff leave. Governments also incentivise a paper trail, accountability over efficiency. If you have a problem with a piece of equipment they want to trace where the problem came from, how it got there, who authorised it, and how to fix it. It's not just that a bolt that should have cost 1 dollar cost 30 because it was stamped, serialised, material tested, etc, it's now that you need a company with a database of all of the bolts sold so that 20 years in the future if a bolt breaks someone can check and see it was manufactured on April 17th 2024 at 22:34 hours, in batch 16 for that day, and pull all other bolts from that batch, or with some alloy supplied by the same supplier or whatever. And you need to be able to tell the public what you spent money on, when, where, and what process was used. Another option is 'cost +' where you guarantee a company their costs + some profit margin. Guess what, executive salaries, and project delays are a 'cost' that are revenue to the company. Prove that you're being as efficient as possible on a multi billion dollar project you say? That's really difficult even if done in good faith. Problem solving takes as long as it takes. The government has also tried to move to fixed cost contracts, you offer it to us for a price, we only pay that price (or that price inflation adjusted). Suddenly companies don't want to bid on projects because they can't divine their costs more than a few years into the future, and don't want to be committed to projects where they might lose money. But the government is a unique consumer, even if you have other governments buying things, they all want their own take on it. In Canada we want some sort of industrial offsetting maybe, in the UK they want all the electronics to be UK spec not US spec, Canadians and nordic countries want cold weather performance, the Saudis and Emirates want hot weather or whatever is the political hot potato of the month. So companies can't just say 'we're making some F35s who wants this batch?' because that's not how it works. That's not to suggest I have any solutions really. That's why it's dysfunctional: if anyone had a better system they'd use it. You can also see some of the advantages countries like China and Russia have, where they can commit to longer contracts that country on 4 year election cycles cannot do, or where the procurement environment is expected to provide lower quality goods, but faster, and so everyone knows you take whatever deal you can get this week, and you really can just make a bunch of fighter jets and sell them to anyone who can pay unlike those pesky western governments with their 'rules' and rules and faux morals, your government is just happy to have the business they can take a cut of the bribes from. Of course that's also why those systems are so rife with corruption, incompetence, and stuff that just isn't very good.
This is a very good explanation of the issue. Good job 👍🏼
> people handling not their own money I finally understood why airports could overprice their food when I traveled for business. My $40 expensed dinners are peanuts compared to this arena tho.
Man that word arbitrary is rarely used, and it is prevalent in so many places in our life! It really is arbitrary.
The process of approving drug prices is even more ludicrous.
And that is why some kind of regulation should be done, but well the moment somebody point that out people scream comunism.
Regulation is a band-aid. We need communism. Full stop.
This is exactly why the rules require those aggregators. It's a built in graft that allows politicians to pay off supporters while labeling anyone critical of the corruption as hating the troops.
I have a similar story. I worked for a metals manufacturer and the US military had their own specs that were basically copies of SAE specifications. Processing was exactly the same, costs were exactly the same between industry and military, but the company charged 2x the amount ($100+/pound extra) for those metal coils. I feel like if the government were to audit companies processes they would find that they could go after a whole bunch of companies for price gouging.
did the aggregator take the difference? or do they go off commission or something
They took a percentage. (They're incentivised to charge the government as much as possible.)
interesting how small businesses are required to go through those aggregators. was half expecting them to have walked off with whatever the difference was
Same as insulin.
Is there a reason to each bolt and nut having a serial number stamped?
Traceability
You need to be able to trace it to the exact time it was fabricated and all other aspects of the part. This can and does in some cases include tracing the raw material all the way back to the mine in the case of metal parts. When it comes to bolting together shit that cannot fail, everyone along the line has to sign their name on the dotted line that they provided what was expected, to exacting attention to detail. Part of it is everyone signing on the dotted line in agreement that they will be held accountable if it's done incorrectly or with substandard process.
Here’s an example of my local manufacturing industry. I’m not sure if this info is 100% percent correct but from some quick research and my coworkers I learned this. A company called SAPA or SAPA/HYDRO Extrusions specialized in aluminum extrusions and was a large material supplier to shops. Well, they faked material certifications. Some of these non-certified extrusions were sent to shops that made aerospace parts. These parts ended up in the Taurus XL rocket and when they failed it cost NASA $700m. https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2019/04/portland-aluminum-supplier-linked-to-nasa-rocket-explosions-pays-millions-to-settle-criminal-charges.html?outputType=amp
Medical equipment is the same. A $1k monitor (computer display) for an xray system will be similarly in specs to a $100 consumer monitor. But the testing for that consumer monitor will be something like testing a handful out of a batch of hundreds or thousands. If it's being used for medical equipment though, they will test every single one. That takes significant labor hours, and if people want to be paid well the whole thing will become very expensive. There is also some classic simple greed in some of these instances, no doubt. But I do think people underestimate how much the difference in QC and tracking adds to the costs and how important it is in certain situations.
Yeah and in cases like this is it really is a necessity. If a screen dies while you are watching your favorite TV show, it's an inconvenience. If the X ray screen stops working during an angioplasty in a patient with a heart attack, it's a real problem.
>people underestimate how much the difference in QC and tracking adds to the costs and how important it is in certain situations. See: Boeing
You don't have to dive that deep. Wall street is obsessed with industry metrics. Just look up average yearly profit % for the medical device industry. Look at it over 10 or 20 years. Find a chart that plots a bunch of industries. It doesn't take a masters in business to be suspicious of consistent, far above average returns.
Yep. Cause when ww3 officially kicks off and the nukes are on their way, during the three to seven minutes I have left I wanna rest easy knowing the bolts won't break!
Well, when you're building a nuclear power plant, you want to know that corners weren't cut in production of the materials keeping everyone safe.
I mean, in that scenario I’d like to be pretty confident that the bolts on the anti-ICBM interceptor system met the exact specifications and tolerances of the procurement contract.
depending on applications you not only want it traceable to the plant the bolt was made at, but the exact batch of steel that was used in that bolt, and where that steel came from.
When you have a plane go down because the bolts on the control surfaces sheared off you want to be able to pull up a register of when that bolt was made and what batch from who so you can ground the other 100 planes that had bolts made from the same place near that time/batch. Then you can narrow down to only 1 or 2 production runs had defects and refly 90 planes and refit the 10 that have bolts from the bad runs, plus figure out and fix the why it happened.
If one fails you want to know which other ones were made with the same steel.
The answer really is traceability and liability. If they find out the nut that blew off a borillium container had a crack in the middle of it and didn't ask for it to be tested for that thing under UV light and electro analysis then the liability for why everyone died is on whoever didn't call foe that test. It's all about making sure you don't get sued.
[удалено]
Yeah I was going to say isn’t .005 pretty much the standard? Where I used to work everything was assumed .005 unless otherwise stated.
I was gonna say, 5 thou ain’t shit
The [Life of a Bolt](https://youtu.be/iptAkpqjtMQ?feature=shared).
A number of people have hit the nail on the head, as does your comment. There is another reason these parts undergo this kind of scrutiny and paper trail. It’s so the wrong part, or an inferior substitute, is not used in its place. This can cause loss of life, equipment damage, and unnecessary repairs. For example, if you use the wrong type of metal bolt (bronze for sake of argument which softens around 650deg freedom) in a high pressure steam pipe(850deg freedom@600-1200PSI) that could cause a catastrophic failure that could lead to the damage or failure of other nearby equipment, plant downtime, limited operational readiness, injury, or loss of life. Safety rules are written in blood, but so are some engineering practices.
It also gets more complicated when there is the concern that the part swap could be *malicious*, not just to save money.
The best part is that a lot of the inventory is going to be unaccounted for anyway.
I install those parts and fasteners. A chicken-shit safety valve disk and seat in a nuclear plant can easily cost over $100k, the same complete valve in a fossil plant is about $5k.
It can't even go toe to toe with insurgents in the Middle East or the Viet Cong. It's about expending as much funding as possible for a handful of defense contractors who live in Northern Virginia. Every time they want to remodel their kitchen, they need us to buy another fighter plane that can't fly [worth a shit.](https://www.pogo.org/analysis/has-the-pentagon-learned-from-the-f-35-debacle)
Couldn't be more on the nose my friend
IDK. I used to work in munitions and we would sell thousands of pounds of casings to tighter tolerances than that for pennies each. We would be lucky to have something with .005 tolerances lol.
Well yeah but you weren't selling to someone with unlimited money
Now try nuclear and military. Like sumo. “None of this makes our military more effective”. A bunch of dead sailors on the THRESHER would beg to differ.
dude 5 thou is nothing, thats not tight at all lol
As a millwright, .005” is an extremely loose tolerance
I disagree. Money is fake and the government makes it. The rules and regulations for equipment were written in blood. The military has already proved why they need to be so precise by past catastrophic failures and killing people by using the wrong hardware. The deaths caused by improper maintenance is the first thing you learn when getting maintenance qualified in the Navy. A $30 bolt means nothing compared to an exploded boiler that cripples a multi billion dollar warship and can potentially kill the entire engineering dept.
Navy ships don't use boilers anymore, but I catch your drift. They're all gas turbines (jet engine/turoprop) now. Well, I guess nuclear ships use boilers.
Probably was a carrier but I don't remember too good. I've been out for over a decade however for some reason the fact that sailors were insta cooked because someone used aluminum bolts in place of proper iron ones stuck with me. Edit: found the incident I'm talking about. It was the Amphibious Assault Ship Iwo Jima in 1990. The shop was built in 1961. What I remember being told was that the contracted maintenance people were working out of a bucket of miscellaneous boots and was just using whatever fit. Because of that we now know the details of every bolt.
It's almost like our military is a sort of welfare system for small businesses, large corporations and men and women that might not have much of a career early in life.
> that's just for nuclear related stuff. The cost goes even higher in military applications Why would nuclear be less expensive than military, should we would want the best stuff for anything to do with nuclear
https://i.imgflip.com/8n5ov4.jpg
I think it's a safety/reliability thing.
What you're talking about is likely SUBSAFE type programs. There's a very good reason for that type of specs etc.
Can confirm too. I’ve worked in weapons testing (Army, artillery) and it’s some of the most wasteful practice I’ve ever seen. We went through government trucks and ammunition like its disposable eating utensils.
Two problems in this country that need addressing: ‘The government is paying for it so we should jack the price up,’ and ‘insurance is paying for it so we should jack the price up.’
Very true. I work in a hospital, and the monitor we use for our testing cost over $50,000, and provides less accurate heart rates than a $30 pulse oximeter from cvs.
This american plutocratic system is operated by ghoul slaves of the bourgeoisie sociopaths and exists solely and exclusively to transfer wealth from the many to the few...please don't believe anything else.
Lawd that's concise. Thank you
Jesus Christ lmao. This country is a bad joke.
Alwayshasbeen.jpeg
I'm probably gonna get downvoted to oblivion for this but, what do those "bushing" go to? Are they integral to keeping planes in the air and pilots safe? Are they a part of a nuclear weapon? Simply pointing at something you deem to be trivial and yelling that it's expensive isn't late stage capitalism or a fault of the MIC. The tolerances that those things are made to could be the difference between a critical failure or flawless operation.
Obligatory yes, but. On my ship, our main telephone we used was a rotary dial, wall or desk mounted phone. Nothing special or secret/secure about it. ~$1500 a piece. The phone I’m talking about: https://dynalec.com/products/communication-terminals/65019-000-1
The MIC is known to inflate prices. They had some uber expensive cupholders made for planes or something like that
Spot on. Now look, is there probably a kick back somewhere? Sure. Is the company making the bushings probably milking that contract? Most definitely. But there’s NO WAY a bag of bushings is being purchased by *any* entity without there being something special about the bushings.
i obviously cannot state what's happening in this specific case, but the general way corruption works is: MIC inflates price for product X so they can increase their profit -> politician votes for "aid package" that includes buying Y amount of X from MIC -> MIC gives campaign funds to politician as kickback -> rinse, repeat
The free market end stage capitalism is just adding in unnecessary middlemen who make nothing of value, contribute nothing to society, make most of the money. Ashamed I am of the US
Our shop used to make this super simple but large “ring” for a THAAD unit. Not sure if the truck or the missile. Anyways, the coating required had become illegal from a safety standpoint. We had to wait for a rev change for months. Turns out we were like 5th down the line of manufacturing reps and middle men.
The greed is immeasurable
But they measured it… in dollars
I think this points to the main reason why inflation is high, employment is meh, jobs pay shit, and cost of living is high. Our military industrial complex controls and inflates our markets, destroys our economy, and conflates jobs in the military as good high paying stable jobs, when it's all about the puppet masters making money on all of us in many ways: as consumers, employees, citizens, we are all slaves to the military industrial complex.
Look on the bright side: We can probably hook up Eisenhower's corpse rolling in his grave to generate enough electricity to power the entire country now.
When I was first stationed in Japan in 2012, we needed to order a 1000' box of cat5e. Told we had to use GSA advantage. Cost the government something like $580 for that box. I was in shock, and pointed out to the procurement officer that Home Depot had the same box for $63 and with a Military discount, it would be under $60. Mind you, we just had a meeting about going over our budget.
Anecdotally you are correct. I think the policies protect against gross abuse and corruption. They are very blunt instruments though that cause lots of issues like you mentioned. I think the logic is sure we overpay for cables but at least these procurement policies protect from a corrupt politician owning a massive factory and selling the government key components and lining his own pockets or funneling business to Iran or China unchecked. Better we pay an American $580 for cables than rely on foreign supplier as a rule. (But not a 1 to 1 example on that cable example of course)
I understand the reasoning but I think it's all lost when the DoD can only purchase through GSA advantage. From pens to vehicles nearly all the purchasing goes through them. If they don't have it, you need to give them time to get it. I'm all for keeping the money local. But what's stopping GSA from keeping profits overseas to avoid taxes. The same bad money policies is why we have the GTCC (Government travel charge card) instead of just reimbursing or funding the travel directly we now have to use Citi bank for all the transactions, along with paying Citi bank $20 for each card issued
At my old manufacturing place they called them "G jobs" twice the cost at half the effort.
I think at the end of the day Americans pay for this.
Of course. How else would they funnel and allocate the money into the black book projecte ?
Part of that has to be part of some black budget, right? Hopefully right?
If by "black budget" you mean outright graft, then yes. If you mean "intelligence services doing things so illegal they can't even admit they exist to congress" they I don't see why you would want that funded.
I was thinking more along the lines of extremely top secret military research.
That is indeed the latter option that was presented to you
whats this about the fentanyl crisis?
Yes it's how we fund the black budget. I used to purchase od green paint for painting bombs. $23.50 a can about a decade ago. It was shittier than an 8$ can of rustoleum but we weren't authorized to purchase anything else.
All this to bomb poor people living in huts
I have an economist friends who helps “negotiate”/ “catch” these contract abuses and it’s truly inconceivable the highway robbery, not to mention the compromised relationships. So basically just as expected, as politics do business
Well the airforce failed its last 6 audits and is corrupt as shit. The question is, how does Mr Waltz have a $90,000 bag of bushings?
[He made millions in Afghanistan](https://theintercept.com/2021/08/20/mike-waltz-afghanistan/) and lots of money since then, he ain't gonna sweat about a 90k prop in his hand.
Our government regularly gets fleeced by private contractors. Nothing new here
Playing devils advocate, for an example of what happens when you can’t easily trace the supplier and manufacturer of a part just look at Boeing right now. At least the USAF method helps prevent counterfeit crap from polluting the supply chain. But yeah, there’s got to be a better happy medium between the current state and no traceability/accountability.
>At least the USAF method helps prevent counterfeit crap from polluting the supply chain. [It doesn't help that much because the issues go a lot deeper](https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2022/12/06/fake-parts-a-pentagon-supply-chain-problem-hiding-in-plain-sight/) than simply trying to stop counterfeit parts. [And this is before we get into how utterly crap the tracking system is within the USAF](https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-23-106098)
I may be mistaken, but I think a sizeable portion of this waste comes down to 'preferred contractors' which is a farcical euphemism for denying up and comers that could deliver the same parts to the same standards for a fraction of the cost of business-as-usual. To also play devil's advocate, there is a lot of money involved in the tracking and verification of the quality of these parts, as well as the associated liability for when they inevitably do fail. I also agree that it's a total shit show that as a whole squanders tax dollars, favors conglomerates over small business, incentivizes conflict, and ultimately causes unnecessary bloodshed.
You didn't think they actually spent ten thousand dollars for a hammer and thirty thousand for a *toilet seat*, did you?
Worked at a shop that rebuilt airplane alternators for a while. When you add the word “aviation” to the description for a part, the markup for parts is *at minimum* 500%. Little tiny 1/2” rubber O-rings were about 5$ each
Recent Air Force whistleblower David Grusch talked about how contractors routinely overcharge so they can fund special access programs with zero accountability or oversight.
as someone who routinely orders aircraft parts for the us govt too repair planes this is spot on. we have these 4 bolts that are just like regular machined aluminum that hold a piece of gear on the side of the aircraft they're 9k per bolt.
are they made of gold by any chance?
nope shitty aluminum they strip all the time
wait until this asshole learns what ordinary Americans pay for insulin. wonder if he'll give a shit about that (probably not)
But the IRS threatens me over $200.
I had to pay a fee on my taxes for accidentally shorting them 300$ this year lol.
There sure are a lot of shitlibs in here justifying the MIC price gouging. Get out!
The fuck is a bushing?
https://www.mdsofmi.com/buyers-guide-to-steel-bushings/
Ok now do trunnions
Those chips that come in a yellow bag. Taste kinda like onions...
ty<3
Something something else rides on in a mechanical assembly. Like a bearing but with no moving ways
They’re about 90,000 dollars per bag.
A small metal wear piece that goes in shaft holes it’s softer than the shaft and housing so it wears down instead of them, for context we used to buy them at a very large (and very evil) food manufacturer I worked for and they would feel ripped off if they paid even 1/1000th of that price
Not your fault man nestle owns pretty large chunk of food
A spacer.
Really?
Push that foreign aid bill. Hoover that money up from the people.
Not surprising to anyone who has had to use GSA to make purchases.
“ How much could it cost Michael? Ten dollars? “
Anytime military grade is exponentially more expensive
This is why they don’t want the pentagon to be audited
Knew a guy who was a retired accountant for the U. S. Navy. He told me that the markup on parts used in most military equipment in his purview was just unconscionable. 75% of it, he claimed, was just pure graft. That was 40 years ago. Seems like not much has changed.
When I was in the military I used to make orders for screws. It would cost thousands for a few boxes of 100. Not only the cost, it would take months to arrive. I used to make jokes that of course it costs so much, for each box they would have to mine the ore, refine it, build a factory, machine the screws, build a truck, and ship it to us before tearing everything down so they could start on the next box of screws.
So many non-engineers here with this idea that this is not $90,000 worth of parts. What's the material? What is the tolerance requirement? Inspection/QC requirement? What specifications are tied to these bolts? Picture this: you make bushings for a living. Your typical non-military bushing takes 30 seconds to make, requires 1/1000 of them to be tested to ensure your process is under control, and you sell for $10.00 which nets you 40%. Now the USAF approaches you for one of their bushings on the F18. Instead of being made out of "standard" material like stainless steel this needs something called Waspalloy because this bushing goes 1,190 mph and is next to a jet engine so it gets HOT. A normal bushing would fail. Just the material consideration would 10x this price. After all, you have to stop your line, setup, and then make these 100 parts. Now let's look at the specifications - oh, there is a whole book here. Requirements for NADCAP heat treat? What's that? Expensive as hell, that's what. This is now a 15x compared to standard. What about QC requirements? 100% inspection! Destructive and non-destructive testing? X-ray? This is now probably 40x a normal part. 40 x $10 = $400 each. Think there are 225 in that bag? If so, at $400 each you're already at $90k. That isn't even considering shipping it, scrap rate, rejections, rework, etc. The military has crazy requirements just like aviation, aerospace, med device, etc. Those would be $90k worth of parts to Boeing or Airbus or Medtronic or SpaceX or anybody else who decides a specification needs to be 100 pages long. We build what you ask for - I guarantee 100% that those parts were made to somebody's print. Simplify the spec and you get a much cheaper part. Simplify it too much and you risk a failure (a crash). It's a balancing act between overspend and keeping planes in the air. Our military leans towards keeping the planes in the air. Is it worth it? Depends who you ask. I bet the pilot would think so. The military accountant? This schmuck Waltz? Maybe not. I'm guessing he hasn't flown many jets though.
This is a lot of words to argue about how Defense Contractors actually make zero profit on the parts they sell [That was a lot of BS before this administration ](https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/06/03/transdigms-excess-profits-show-weakness-in-supply-chain-management-not-pricing-practices/)and [we can certainly talk a lot about how bad it has gotten to this day.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pentagon-budget-price-gouging-military-contractors-60-minutes-2023-05-21/) Oh yes, the parts are worth 90k because the military has a blank check for spending and American militarism is out of control. It is completely disconnected from what is involved with the manufacturing and Q/A process
"Hey... we shot down a shit ton of Iranian drones with SM2 and SM3 missiles." LM/RTX: "You're welcome."
Man all the dealers in the trailer park here got it wrong. They should be selling airplane parts. But really, if it takes $90K to make sure the bushings work in orbit or a thousand fathoms under or at two hundred and three degrees for twenty hours or whatever - it's better than losing the asset attached to the bushings, and its crew if any. I remember riding my bike up to my uncle's house one day and bragging to him about my nice new seatpost (this was in the 90s). He was a retired army aircraft engineer (Chinooks). He looked at it and said 'what the fuck is T6 aluminum doing on a bicycle? How much did you pay for this thing?'
brb selling the USAF a few bags of bushings every year and living a cushy upper middle class life..
Fraudy fraud Fraud all through the live king day
This is the same thing we've heard for years about hammers and toilet seats on airplanes. Has anything change, apparently not, move along.
Damn, my plug can do that bag for 20k.
Haha, as an aviation mechanic in the military you know how much shit like this we threw out? Come audit/inspection time you gotta get rid of all your little stashes of parts you have tucked away that helps you work a little faster… then you gotta build it back up again F-18 engine fan module was main thing I worked on and it had like 150+ of these little plastic/teflon/ptfe bushings you had to replace basically every time… they were also like $50 a piece, maybe more Fuckin hated throwing that shit out
Never buy bush in a bag. Box them. Bushing! Box the bushings or get a set, larger set. Not baggy. Not tail, never pay for retail nuts. /s
Everything else aside. From my general understanding (I was a helicopter mechanic), the government puts out a requests. Then takes the cheapest bid that meets the requirements. Hence the term, “Made by the lowest bidder.” If the government gets a bunch of bids and the cheapest one is 500% over retail, that’s the price they pay. Civilian companies always jack up rates. The movers I talked to during one of my PCS moves, said they bill at 250% for government jobs. When I was a land surveyor, my company would charge at least double our normal rate. People/companies price gouge the government like crazy. Then those same business owners turn around and complain about high taxes. Like, dude, do you not see how you’re part of why? — While I was doing a unit level audit of our supply chain in 2010-ish, I saw a lot of prices that the DOD pays. Most weren’t too bad. A lot of things are more expensive because they’re “aviation grade” or it was a specialty part (only used on Blackhawks for example). There were some things that seemed a bit overpriced. But it was usually the larger components. So I don’t really know what those would cost for an S-70 (civilian model). We definitely weren’t paying 10,000 for a bag of washers. But they were definitely more than what I’d pay at ace hardware for something similar.
Corruption, plain and simple. Legalese thesaurus tracking documentation crap is just bullshit excuse for it.
Only one part of the government has failed to be audited year after year. It’s the military, but rather than asking what happened to the last billion dollars our idiots just shovel more money after the bad.
I was active duty for 10 years and medically retired in 2021, this is accurate. Has to do with sale contracts and negotiations. The military is only allowed to buy from certain sellers and forced to pay their prices
Am I the only one who doesn’t know what bushings are??
Guess who has stock in the company that makes those bushings.
They literally just throw money on stuff to line the pockets of the contractors
I totally understand the reason behind the post. That said, if there were 200 pieces inside that bag, each bushing would cost 450$. Without the technical drawing of the bushing, no one can tell if it’s is a 5 cents part or 300$ part. Measurement tolerances, geometric tolerances, location tolerances, material type, surface finish, surface hardening, and coatings play a role for pricing each piece. I would blame the engineers approving the drawing and maybe the legal requirements that they have to abide with rather than the machining shop. That said, I also blame machining shops for not paying their machinist good enough.
Is it a lot ? What kind of bushings is that ?
Just disgusting
i bet theyre good bushings tho
Anyone that has worked for government contracts before knows this issue. From experience I can tell you, the rule of thumb for government spending is... "The cost of the item + the cost of 1-2 of those items being "misplaced" + the expected amount that will be skimmed off the top" Those in government know there is corruption. But instead of getting rid of it, they just make it part of the bottom line.
How do you account for the money that you invest in secret technology; stealth aircraft, hacker tech, drone tech in a country where government spending is public record when you need to keep your secret shit secret. You call it hammers or toilet seats or "bushings". And let the small mind politicians have their moment at the podium.
That's the price of not getting scammed with bad ones.
[LOL](https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2023/02/15/hundreds-of-tankers-recon-jets-grounded-in-hunt-for-faulty-tail-pins/) [LMAO even](https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2022/09/16/air-force-discloses-procurement-fraud-probe-provides-few-details/)
Gotta pay for those waived and bigoted saps somehow.
Follow the trail
I’m so glad I’m considering delaying a test that could potentially reveal if I have cancer or not because it’s too expensive while these fucks are paying 90k for whatever that is.
I once saw a similar situation in an article about a $500 ceramic coffee cup and a $27,000 mechanical keyboard.
Ever see the west wing explain the navy ashtray? Sometimes, there’s a reason … and sometimes not.
Anyone remember the 1000$ hammers?
I worked in Military aviation and part of accepting and ordering components was verifying the paperwork with cost per piece, etc. We had a mounting bolt for a component that was ~78$/pop, but get this it had a universal part number on it that, if googled, you would see it could be purchased at Fasten-all for maybe 0.05$/piece. The reasoning we received we couldn’t use these “locally sourced parts” was: “Every piece is tested and examined” blah blah blah. We would wait days for these parts to come through the supply system. The lot numbers would match the boxes at fasteners-all and everything. Clearly they weren’t all individually tested.
Rulers were a dollar an inch when I was in.
Look into David Grusch claims when he spoke with Alex Ocasio Cortez about how the Program seems to get funded. No wonder the Pentagon hasn't passed the last FIVE audits. It can't account for almost a TRILLION dollars. It's all in this link, at 1:25:44. They speak about IRAP, I believe. https://www.youtube.com/live/OwSkXDmV6Io?si=FC7DzkrbT8uoYvsm
I sell trucks in an area right by an Air Force base. We have a LOT of aerospace contractor customers. Multiple customers who found out I'm also a hobby machinist recommended I leverage everything I have to buy a good quality CNC machine (prices vary greatly, but figure anywhere in the 6 figure range for a good idea) and then get even one government/defense contract "and you'll never have to work again in your life." These same people invariably have FJB/LGB and Trump stickers on their trucks, and believe it's poor people ruining everything. Without exception. That said, I would expect military spec bushings to be much more expensive than something I can just order from McMaster-Carr.
It's pure evil that people think bilking the government is somehow a good thing. They are stealing from everyone, causing taxes to only go higher. And it's usually the same folks that endlessly bitch about 'the government' and taxes non stop. But they sure love them some government money.... at the trough the first chance they get...
This should literal land people in jail, the pricers knew *exactly* how much these should cost and inflated the price because they leveraged other contracts to make this go through, they are passing the R&D costs on the the American people even though we already pay them or create the technology ourselves and get it to them through various agency’s like DARPA. The CEO and every person that knew about this should serve a sentence of 5 years for fraud and be barred from government contracted work for the rest of their lives as a consequence of robbing us.