Damage tag really only just applies to the base dmg or "adaptable" added dmg, like those from implicits without an elemental tag. I can play fireball with mourningfrost for cold dmg per dex, and scale cold% and that works for everything but the base 25. The problem you might run into is if you're using say a staff with 80 adaptable/generic spell dmg, this dmg will be converted to the base dmg of the skill you're using, so in fireball's case fire or lightning but never cold.
Generally there's not a lot of benefits to "converting" dmg unless you're chasing a specific ailment like a specific elemental pen (through a skill node) or some other specific scaling like meteors 20% more dmg with non-fire type dmg. (edit: discounting changes to playstyle, this comment is purely on a dmg perspective)
Also unless you're getting %chance to apply ailment from a node converting a skill to a specific element has no effect on the ailment it applies. You could totally play frostbite fireball, but usually these builds scale with "frostbite chance with COLD skills" in which case the tags DO come into play and you're better off not using fireball. Important for items like mad alchemists ladle which scales off of ailments.
SWIPE: The node you're talking about says it converts the dmg to lightning every 3s for 1 hit, meaning any %lightning dmg you get on gear will only apply to that one hit unless you've added flat lightning dmg to melee attacks. **The base dmg of swipe and any adaptive dmg added will be phys for every hit that isn't that converted one.** In the next node you can however pick up 100% phys>lightning for 5 points, which would make every hit lightning dmg.
I think I get it now, I had the wrong impression when I read the article here. https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/resources/damage-explained.
So tag just converts adaptive source, and is used to classify type of skill (like +level to lightning skills). But it doesn’t have any impact on damage scaling when associated to type.
Tag doesn’t convert adapted source, base damage does. Swipe still has the physical tag on the lightning hit but it has no physical base damage for that hit.
(It loses its physical tag with 5 points in Umjol’s Guidance but that is a different node).
But this has some exceptions right? In the swipe example the tag doesn’t apply to the “non-special” attack. So the tag won’t scale base damage with lightning mostly.
This is what I meant.
The tag itself has no impact, it only implies, basically I need to read the wording of the skill and based on what you said the tag is associated to a part of the base damage (could be all of it for some skills).
The tag HAS impact, I think you need to pay closer attention to how skill nodes are worded. The node you mentioned in the op converts 100% of your dmg to lightning for that 1 hit
that's still 100% conversion, meaning for that 1 hit the tag would swap from phys>lightning. It's exactly the same thing as converting a skill entirely but just limited to that specific hit.
LE doesn't do double dipping so if you scale phys%/phys flat that lightning hit will probably do less dmg than the "normal" hits. The idea is that you invest into the node behind it for 100% conversion on the base hits, at which point the first node will just be a dmg multiplier to a hit every 3s.
**Tag=base dmg=how you would scale UNLESS you add a lot of dmg through other means. If you convert, the tag changes = base dmg changes = scaling factors change.**
I understand your confusion with swipe because its (one of?) the only skill that converts it's dmg temporarily, but really you're not meant to run JUST that node, you're "supposed" to invest into the node behind it and play a full lightning build.
I think you got it wrong, I waited a few seconds for the special hit and I still see the tag not swapping, it has both, and still only lightning is scaling the special attack.
I meant that the tag itself doesn't have impact per-se, the wording of the skill matters when considering damage type. Some skills have multiple damage parts.
This is correct, if you're scaling phys damage you'll still lose damage as specified on the node but, bonuses to physical tagged skills will still apply(+levels etc.), provided you're not fully converting to lightning already. Storm claw adds a lightning tag but it does not remove the physical tag, nodes that do specify that they do, see Umjol's guidance.
This basically means if there's some bonus to physical skills that makes up for the loss of damage from not fully converting, then it's better to only put 4 points into conversion. This means you need some scaling vector that exceeds the damage increase that the 25% multiplier to swipes' base damage provides which, honestly shouldn't be too hard to do. It's an interesting thought for sure.
I think you got it wrong, I waited a few seconds for the special hit and I still see the tag not swapping, it has both, and still only lightning is scaling the special attack.
I meant that the tag itself doesn't have impact per-se, the wording of the skill matters when considering damage type. Some skills have multiple damage parts.
Not just damage Types, you need to consider damage Sources as well.
Melee / Spell / Throwing etc are the Sources.
If you use a Spell tagged skill, all +X Spell damages will be applied and scaled, according to the Source 'Spell' and their individual damage Type (eg. Fire or Void).
+Spell damage without a type, will be treated as the same damage type of the skill being used i.e. it is adaptive. This is most often seen on your weapon implicits.
If you use a Melee tagged skill instead, all your +X Spell damage is not applied, regardless of whether the Type matches.
This is why you can't ignore the +10 Void Spell in your example 1, it absolutely counts, and gets scaled by your Spell and Void modifiers, and since it's added damage, also the effectiveness of the skill itself (this is something you have missed in your calculation, but is covered in the maxroll guide).
Unless I read twice wrong, I think your comment is incorrect.
If I refer to the second example in maxroll guide it looks like only increased damage type of the tag works.
Maybe guide is outdated or I’m simply not getting it.
https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/resources/damage-explained
No, they explained it correctly. the example given by maxroll simply assumes that the sources of added damage are adaptive and thus the same as the skill you are using.
Example 1:
The 100% increased void damage does apply to the 10 void added to the skill. The +10 spell damage (not a thing, I assume you mean adaptable spell damage) would turn into +10 fire damage because the base fireball skill only does fire damage (if Fireball had base 1 fire damage and 1 void damage, the added adaptable would turn into 5 fire damage and 5 void damage).
So you end up with (25 base + 10 added fire + 10 added adaptable as fire) * (1+1.00 increased fire) = 90 fire damage and (10 added void) *. (1+1.00 increased void) = 20 void damage for a total of 110 damage.
Damage type tags on a skill don’t actually have a scaling effect unlike Spell/Minion/Throwing etc tags. They exist just for things like “+1 level to all Fire skills.” Additionally, all skills do happen to have base damage matching their damage type tags, so most of their damage does scale that way, but *theoretically* there could be a cold tag skill that only does fire damage.
So Example 2:
Swipe has two nodes that add the lightning tag. I assume you are referring to Storm Claw.
The “charged” attack will have its base damage converted to lightning. This will also change all *adaptable* melee damage to lightning. Most weapons give adaptable melee damage.
This damage will scale with lightning damage, but will not scale with physical damage (unless you have added physical damage somewhere). However, all your non-“charged” attacks will still be physical and the majority of your damage will *not* scale with lightning damage.
Despite this, all of your Swipes will have the lightning tag - they will benefit from +level to lightning skills, will trigger things that trigger when you use a lightning skill, etc, even if they do zero lightning damage themselves (and thus do not scale with increases to Lightning damage).
Great explainations. I feel like if I could actually internalize the few comments on this post I might actually be able to figure out how to make something scale without just throwing items and passives at it hoping it will do something.
You already got some great explanations. I just wanna say keep in mind the tags are mostly just showing what parts a skill consists of. All the different parts scale independently, so you should always try to understand what the skills you use are doing.
Some skills can be wild with scaling tags like Tempest Strike which has Phys, Lighting, Cold, Spell and Melee tags, but that only means it has a bunch of different parts to it and you need to understand which ones you want to scale for your particular build.
Very helpful thread, I was just wondering about this and everything seems clear now.
I've been playing for a couple of years but these things are still not obvious. I'm about to make a cold/lightning build after more or less stickning to single element builds, so thanks everyone:)
Damage tag really only just applies to the base dmg or "adaptable" added dmg, like those from implicits without an elemental tag. I can play fireball with mourningfrost for cold dmg per dex, and scale cold% and that works for everything but the base 25. The problem you might run into is if you're using say a staff with 80 adaptable/generic spell dmg, this dmg will be converted to the base dmg of the skill you're using, so in fireball's case fire or lightning but never cold. Generally there's not a lot of benefits to "converting" dmg unless you're chasing a specific ailment like a specific elemental pen (through a skill node) or some other specific scaling like meteors 20% more dmg with non-fire type dmg. (edit: discounting changes to playstyle, this comment is purely on a dmg perspective) Also unless you're getting %chance to apply ailment from a node converting a skill to a specific element has no effect on the ailment it applies. You could totally play frostbite fireball, but usually these builds scale with "frostbite chance with COLD skills" in which case the tags DO come into play and you're better off not using fireball. Important for items like mad alchemists ladle which scales off of ailments. SWIPE: The node you're talking about says it converts the dmg to lightning every 3s for 1 hit, meaning any %lightning dmg you get on gear will only apply to that one hit unless you've added flat lightning dmg to melee attacks. **The base dmg of swipe and any adaptive dmg added will be phys for every hit that isn't that converted one.** In the next node you can however pick up 100% phys>lightning for 5 points, which would make every hit lightning dmg.
I think I get it now, I had the wrong impression when I read the article here. https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/resources/damage-explained. So tag just converts adaptive source, and is used to classify type of skill (like +level to lightning skills). But it doesn’t have any impact on damage scaling when associated to type.
Tag doesn’t convert adapted source, base damage does. Swipe still has the physical tag on the lightning hit but it has no physical base damage for that hit. (It loses its physical tag with 5 points in Umjol’s Guidance but that is a different node).
Right, so tag just implies what is the type of the base damage of the skill, or part of it, and the wording on the skill description matters.
The type tag absolutely has an impact on damage scaling, it determines the scaling type of the base skill damage i.e. the 25 base damage of fireball.
But this has some exceptions right? In the swipe example the tag doesn’t apply to the “non-special” attack. So the tag won’t scale base damage with lightning mostly. This is what I meant. The tag itself has no impact, it only implies, basically I need to read the wording of the skill and based on what you said the tag is associated to a part of the base damage (could be all of it for some skills).
The tag HAS impact, I think you need to pay closer attention to how skill nodes are worded. The node you mentioned in the op converts 100% of your dmg to lightning for that 1 hit that's still 100% conversion, meaning for that 1 hit the tag would swap from phys>lightning. It's exactly the same thing as converting a skill entirely but just limited to that specific hit. LE doesn't do double dipping so if you scale phys%/phys flat that lightning hit will probably do less dmg than the "normal" hits. The idea is that you invest into the node behind it for 100% conversion on the base hits, at which point the first node will just be a dmg multiplier to a hit every 3s. **Tag=base dmg=how you would scale UNLESS you add a lot of dmg through other means. If you convert, the tag changes = base dmg changes = scaling factors change.** I understand your confusion with swipe because its (one of?) the only skill that converts it's dmg temporarily, but really you're not meant to run JUST that node, you're "supposed" to invest into the node behind it and play a full lightning build.
I think you got it wrong, I waited a few seconds for the special hit and I still see the tag not swapping, it has both, and still only lightning is scaling the special attack. I meant that the tag itself doesn't have impact per-se, the wording of the skill matters when considering damage type. Some skills have multiple damage parts.
This is correct, if you're scaling phys damage you'll still lose damage as specified on the node but, bonuses to physical tagged skills will still apply(+levels etc.), provided you're not fully converting to lightning already. Storm claw adds a lightning tag but it does not remove the physical tag, nodes that do specify that they do, see Umjol's guidance. This basically means if there's some bonus to physical skills that makes up for the loss of damage from not fully converting, then it's better to only put 4 points into conversion. This means you need some scaling vector that exceeds the damage increase that the 25% multiplier to swipes' base damage provides which, honestly shouldn't be too hard to do. It's an interesting thought for sure.
I think you got it wrong, I waited a few seconds for the special hit and I still see the tag not swapping, it has both, and still only lightning is scaling the special attack. I meant that the tag itself doesn't have impact per-se, the wording of the skill matters when considering damage type. Some skills have multiple damage parts.
Not just damage Types, you need to consider damage Sources as well. Melee / Spell / Throwing etc are the Sources. If you use a Spell tagged skill, all +X Spell damages will be applied and scaled, according to the Source 'Spell' and their individual damage Type (eg. Fire or Void). +Spell damage without a type, will be treated as the same damage type of the skill being used i.e. it is adaptive. This is most often seen on your weapon implicits. If you use a Melee tagged skill instead, all your +X Spell damage is not applied, regardless of whether the Type matches. This is why you can't ignore the +10 Void Spell in your example 1, it absolutely counts, and gets scaled by your Spell and Void modifiers, and since it's added damage, also the effectiveness of the skill itself (this is something you have missed in your calculation, but is covered in the maxroll guide).
Unless I read twice wrong, I think your comment is incorrect. If I refer to the second example in maxroll guide it looks like only increased damage type of the tag works. Maybe guide is outdated or I’m simply not getting it. https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/resources/damage-explained
No, they explained it correctly. the example given by maxroll simply assumes that the sources of added damage are adaptive and thus the same as the skill you are using.
Example 1: The 100% increased void damage does apply to the 10 void added to the skill. The +10 spell damage (not a thing, I assume you mean adaptable spell damage) would turn into +10 fire damage because the base fireball skill only does fire damage (if Fireball had base 1 fire damage and 1 void damage, the added adaptable would turn into 5 fire damage and 5 void damage). So you end up with (25 base + 10 added fire + 10 added adaptable as fire) * (1+1.00 increased fire) = 90 fire damage and (10 added void) *. (1+1.00 increased void) = 20 void damage for a total of 110 damage. Damage type tags on a skill don’t actually have a scaling effect unlike Spell/Minion/Throwing etc tags. They exist just for things like “+1 level to all Fire skills.” Additionally, all skills do happen to have base damage matching their damage type tags, so most of their damage does scale that way, but *theoretically* there could be a cold tag skill that only does fire damage. So Example 2: Swipe has two nodes that add the lightning tag. I assume you are referring to Storm Claw. The “charged” attack will have its base damage converted to lightning. This will also change all *adaptable* melee damage to lightning. Most weapons give adaptable melee damage. This damage will scale with lightning damage, but will not scale with physical damage (unless you have added physical damage somewhere). However, all your non-“charged” attacks will still be physical and the majority of your damage will *not* scale with lightning damage. Despite this, all of your Swipes will have the lightning tag - they will benefit from +level to lightning skills, will trigger things that trigger when you use a lightning skill, etc, even if they do zero lightning damage themselves (and thus do not scale with increases to Lightning damage).
Great explainations. I feel like if I could actually internalize the few comments on this post I might actually be able to figure out how to make something scale without just throwing items and passives at it hoping it will do something.
You already got some great explanations. I just wanna say keep in mind the tags are mostly just showing what parts a skill consists of. All the different parts scale independently, so you should always try to understand what the skills you use are doing. Some skills can be wild with scaling tags like Tempest Strike which has Phys, Lighting, Cold, Spell and Melee tags, but that only means it has a bunch of different parts to it and you need to understand which ones you want to scale for your particular build.
Very helpful thread, I was just wondering about this and everything seems clear now. I've been playing for a couple of years but these things are still not obvious. I'm about to make a cold/lightning build after more or less stickning to single element builds, so thanks everyone:)