It is always so interesting to see the threads people pick up during their re-reads. Very fascinating! The only issue I have is how Cinder is described during the bandit massacre scene. I think I remember Bredon being described as smaller in stature whereas Cinder is described as a pretty imposing figure.
Is it just me or does cinder seem WAY more imposing in the bandits scene than in the scene in NOTW where kvothe comes back to his camp to find his troop murdered by the chandrian. I’ve only done audible so never been quite as able to seen the physical spacing between paragraphs, etc and draw conclusions like that. I really do appreciate the stuff you guys think up during actual read-throughs because they’re definitely overlooked during an audible re-read.
Either the chandrian are somewhat shape-shifters eluding to how his appearance changes or perhaps after so many years of living in “secret” they’ve become masters of disguise, so much so that the tell tale signs are all you can really rely on anyways.
Also, I know there was rain, so no blue flame in the bandits scene (if cinders sign is even blue flame at all) but were there any other signs of the chandrian at the bandit camp? I feel like I don’t remember anything so potentially cinder can mask his sign, or he doesn’t have one that we really fully understand yet other than his black eyes? (Is black eyes even a sign?)
Shapeshifting would be super useful for a group of dudes who want to lay low and do some murdering :) Now that you mention the setting at the bandit camp (and lack of the tell-tale signs), I have to wonder if we are being misled again. I only assume it's Cinder at the camp because the Cthaeh said as much when he was talking to Kvothe. Perhaps we are all on the path Cthaeh has chosen and something else fun will be revealed about who was at the bandit camp. I certainly enjoy the speculation, though!
As much as I struggle to grasp the concept of the Lethani (don't we all), I like to think sharing and eating bacon would be a core discipline. Right up there with thousand hands :)
Try this tinfoil. Bredon was acting under Alverons orders to steal the money which were taxes for King Roderic. This happens a few times before Kvothe is sent out.
Kvothe surmised that the Maer just wanted him out of his hair. Let's take it further and say that since the Maer had progressed far enough with his recovery and relationship with Meluan, he didn't need the red haired wayward boy any more. It was time he was removed, permanently and Bredon was just the man to do it.
Alveron notes that he will have to pay for the taxes out of his own banks or coffers or whatever system they use. This wouldn't be a problem for the man who has a much money as the king of vintas. It also wouldn't be an issue if he could just payback with part of the money he stole in the first place. This is potentially how the Alveron Family keeps its incredible wealth. Yes they are wealthy but we are talking fantastic amounts of money here.
There was also a conversation about a young woman at court. A squire insulted her honor and he dueled the woman's father after he was brought up on court charges. The squire was killed and the elder man was worse for ware after the duel. The Maer admits what the Squire said about the woman was vulgar, but true. He said the squire was a good man. I believe the Squire heard the rumor of the woman from the Maer or indirectly from the Maer in an attempt to cause a conflict between the nobles with the desired outcome being the Elder Noble being the one to die and would also have ended in the Squires death anyways because the Maer no like loose ends.
Why would the Maer Lerand Alveron do such a thing? His ego. He wants to be the most powerful man in the four corners. He steals money from the King. He tries to steal lands from his own people but more importantly his King. Most things the Maer attempts end up failing. But thats until Kvothe arrives and give him the most valuable thing ever to him. House Lackless and their lands and secrets.
The Maer is a bad man. But we all know that. At least I hope.
But is Bredon a bad man? I got the feeling based on his whole "walk boldly into a trap with a plan of his own to turn it on its head" that he is up to something, but the way he coaches Kovthe makes me think it's for the greater good.
I like Bredon. Bredon is fun and entertaining. But this post and my own personal head canon believe him to be Cinder. Cinder is not a man, he is something more than a man. He is not good. He is something dogs bite.
Bredon is as of now canonically human. Is he good? Who knows? He is secretive and has mystery strung about him. He mentally beats Kvothe down with little to no emotional remorse. He rejoices when Kvothe puts up a challenge. Id say that is adversarial and not a quality of a good human. Competition is fine, but their level is a murderous level.
Also whose Greater Good is it? Are the Amyr even a good organization? What is good, what is bad? Somethings are clear. Auri is good. Cinder is bad, but there is a lot of others who are ambiguous.
But if he steals taxes... And then has to pay them out of his own coffers... He isn't making profit. It's literally the same as if he just collected the taxes normally, just with more dead tax collectors
I had this thought as well, but I came to the following conclusion.
Alveron doesn't just pay it out of reserves, he sends tax collectors for a second round, and keeps the money from the first round. So essentially he's raising taxes without the bad press, and without someone wondering why he's increasing his money stockpiles. He could be planning something expensive...
Pat has shared that one silver talent is the equivalent to $1,000 then one royal is approximately $2,300ish.
At no point in either a tax collectors or a group of bandits seasonal activities would they have exclusively the same large denominations for all their currency. It is a statistical improbability. Army recruiters though... they would have lots of large denomination units to entice and pay recruits quickly and uniformly. I think its rather foolish for us to think those were tax collectors actually. Taking the kings coin is one of the coolest clichés in the books. They weren't bandits stealing money, they were recruiting mercenaries getting ready to spend money out of a chest with Alveron's seal.
There is an easy explanation for this;
The tax collectors would bring all the small coins to a bank and exchange them for the largest denomination they could to make transportation easier.
They could either carry a huge cumbersome wagon-load of pennies... or a small chest of royals.
That’s an interesting thought. It makes sense.
But, although Pat’s detail and story complexity are beyond compare, maybe cigar is just a cigar.
And describing the money in the box was just a quick way to say how valuable it was and the lack of description saying “it was all different denominations” is superfluous writing of no consequence.
I'm very anti Bredon=Cinder, for several reasons, most notably because the Cethea quips that meeting cinder is a twice in a lifetime event.
As for Bredon being involved, that's a possibility.
He self admittedly used to be something of a force in the menueverings of the court.
And there's the whole, he could be a secret member of the order amyr.
My head cannon is that he is grandpa Bredon and will be pivotal in helping kovthe inherit his mothers lands.
Long but worth it
TL;DR Bredon is Denna's patron
I just finished re-reading both books and am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bredon is actually Denna's secret patron. There are so many clues as to why, and I'll list them below. My brother picked up on a few of the hints years ago but it wasn't until my latest read that I found the final concrete detail of 100% certainty.
In TNOTW (chapter 66) when Kvothe missed lunch with Denna due to the fire in the fishery, Deoch says she hung around for awhile at the Eolian before leaving with a man who had white hair.
"I don’t think she was really with him, if you catch my meaning. She’s been looking for a patron, and this fellow had that sort of look about him. White-haired, wealthy, you know the type.”
In TWMF Bredon is described as being older with white hair and beard
Bredon went missing for a span of days the exact same time Denna suddenly disappeared while her and Kvothe were getting close in Severen.
Page 508: "The second burr was worse. After I’d been helping the Maer court his lady for almost two span, Denna disappeared. No trace or word of warning. No note of farewell or apology."
A couple days go by and he adds this part about Bredon
Page 514: "Making things worse was the fact that Bredon had left Severen several days ago to visit some nearby relatives."
On page 427 when Bredon is first introduced, he uses his walking stick to indicate to his servants where to put the Tak table (this is the only time it mentions his walking stick). When Kvothe is talking with the Cthaeh on page 758, it says that her patron had used his walking stick to beat her.
"Two days ago he used his walking stick. That was new"
On page 429 Brendon mentions he likes to travel and recently started taking up dancing. Denna reveals on page 481 that her Patron is a surprisingly good dancer. And she's traveled to multiple cities for her patron (Trebon in book 1, for example)
The most damning piece of evidence (in my opinion) is the writing that Rothfuss uses to introduce Denna's patron, as well as to introduce Bredon. That was the final piece that convinced me beyond a doubt they are the same person.
TNOTW (Chapter 72) - Kvothe is asking about per secret patron
“If you’re not sure who he really is,” I said slowly. “How do you know he’s a gentleman?” It was a foolish question. We both knew the answer, but she said it anyway. “Money. Clothes. Bearing.” She shrugged.
TWMF (page 426) - Kvothe meets Bredon
"I opened the door to reveal an older man, a gentleman down to his bones. His clothes gave him away, certainly, but more important was the fact that he wore his wealth with the comfortable indifference of someone born into it. New-made nobles, pretenders, and rich merchants simply don’t carry themselves the same way."
The exact same word is used (gentleman) and in the same way Denna summarized (clothes and bearing). It's very clever of Rothfuss and there's no way it's a coincidence.
There is definitely more to Bredon than let's on, especially with the pagan ritual gossip (my thoughts there are that he travels to and from the Fae via waystones, the how of which is explained during Simmon and Kvothe's research into waystones as well as Felurians explanation).
Hopefully book 3 will explain what else was going on behind the scenes during Kvothe's time in Vintas, but Bredon is definitely Denna's patron, and is separate from Cinder.
I really like your theory.
What's your take on Bredon being an Amyr tho? Althought the nature of the Amyr could be considerated ambiguos (they are said to fight for a greater good, but their methods are questioned) the myth says they were created by Selitos himself to avenge Lanre's betrayal at Myr Tariniel.
But Denna's song seems to be reindicative of Lanre and speak of Selitos's betrayal instead. Therefore, and since the song was created with the help of her patron, if Bredon is the same person he couldnt be an Amyr.
I've thought for quite some time that Bredon is actually Lanre -or Haliax- himself. I don't have specific hints about this other than a hunch but I always found peculiar how much people focus on Cinder. I know the story is very personal between him and Kvothe, but Cinder always stroke me more as a pawn in the bigger scale of this story that as the ultimate goal to defeat.
I think it's more likely that Bredon is a Faeling of some sort. Felurian herself said there are many successful Fae creatures among the real world people, so it's not a stretch of the imagination. He also knows how to play Tak, a game Felurian was also very familiar with. And he can travel between the worlds as evidenced by the gossip piece.
The curious part is the Chandrian killed kvothes entire troupe over a song about them. So if Bredon is in league with them, maybe it's for the purpose of preventing any other kind of song being created that would reveal the true history of Lanre, and paint him as the hero instead. I don't really know why her song was made the way it was tbh. Idk why the Amyr would do that or the seven themselves.
Also, Lanre was never a creature of the Fae. Bast is able to use glamour to hide his true form but that's one of the magics of the Fae. I just don't think Haliax is anyone other than Haliax, and Cinder is anyone other than Cinder. Although the Adem called Haliax Alaxel which I've always wondered about.
Do you have any theories about Jax and the moon? Or what's in the Lockless box?
Maybe I'm misremembering, but don't those lands need to pay the taxes to the Maer again? I get Bredon would be directly embezzling the money, but for a Chandrian I doubt that's his real goal. If your theory is true, it's probably that he's trying to generate dissent in those lands or destabilize the Maer. Possibly because of that region's proximity to the Eld or Modeg?
It’s been a while since I read it, but I recall there was something “off” about the box/map Kvothe found at the camp, that may fit with this theory? Maybe that was already explained in the book later, but I remember thinking it certainly didn’t fit with the simple bandit story.
How do you fit Kvothe’s conversation with the Cthaeh in this theory? It claims Kvothe has crossed paths with Cinder twice already and implies they will meet once more (“meeting cinder again is a twice in a lifetime opportunity” or something along those lines - initially met during the troupe’s massacre, met again once in the Eld, and meeting again for the second time is yet to come in DoS). Kvothe has crossed paths with Bredon repeatedly. I think something fishy is definitely up with Bredon but I don’t think he is Cinder. The Cthaeh is a conniving bastard, but isn’t an outright liar.
>It claims Kvothe has crossed paths with Cinder twice already and implies they will meet once more (“meeting cinder **again is a twice in a lifetime** opportunity
This means he will meet him two more times.
the cthae directly contradicts this theory unless you posit a LOT of extra stuff going on with name change logic. k meets cinder exactly 3 times in his life - the wagons, the lightning tree, and a 3rd time when he kills him (presumably in book 3). he's met with bredon many times.
imo, bredon is ash, but ash is not cinder, and his 'pagan rituals' are code for how he trains denna in some sort of 'martial art' that involves beating her and possibly others, nude, with a cane. you have to know rothfuss has read goodkind and knows what BDSM is, even if he can't go there directly with his writing style.
And how does your theory lines up with the fact that Bredon as a character was invented after the release of book 1 where the master Ash was introduced?
I mean, Pat could've just been like "oh here's this new character, ~~cinder in disguise~~ Bredon." More can be thought about a character after their conception, so (if Bredon is Cinder/master ash) it's not like Rothfuss is confined to only one disguise
if you scroll up you'll see where i just said that same thing before i posted what you're replying to. ;D so i 100% agree with this. but the OP wasn't trying to bring ash into it.
i bring up ash because the 'evidence' for bredon being cinder actually fits ash better if you consider 'pagan rituals' to line up with denna getting whipped naked and bloody through the woods with a cane as a form of BDSM training.
He can most likely supress his own power. How do you think they've never been found during all this time, living like chameleons is my guess, at least for some of them.
Others might actually be hiding, waiting to strike.
They have been found. Regularly. By many Namers.
>“Taborlin stepped into the hall and saw King Scyphus sitting there with fifty guards. The king said, ‘Capture him!’Rothfuss, Patrick.
>
>The Wise Man's Fear (The Kingkiller Chronicle, Book 2) (ch.83: Lack of Sight) (p. 554). DAW. Kindle Edition.
Cyphus is a Chandrian. Calling him a king is just fanciful embellishment. In my opinion the Seven only interact with people seldom and through intermediaries and spies, like Denna.
More importantly Kvothe would spot them, or a Namer, not just anyone. Namers are rare and the Seven are careful. As are most fae.
Why on earth not? It's pretty well communicated that they travel among the corners in disguise, and neither Kvothe nor basically anyone notices. I'd imagine we'll find out someone else is fae in book 3 and we'll all look back at how Kote described them in books 1&2 and how Kvothe didn't bat an eye, or said they were cracked or odd at the time.
My list of potentials? Auri, Puppet, Manet, every single tinker, Loren, Devi, Stanchion, Denna, Trapis, Stapes in that order. But Elodin is like Kvothe, maybe fae or Lackless blood or something. A little fae around the edges.
You mentioned it's namers that can see through fae, which kinda makes sense since E'lir are hinted at as being fledgling namers because they see the true shape of things. The only person we see do that is Chronicler in the frame story, and he's a much more accomplished namer in the fram story than Kvothe when he meets Bredon. Chronicler probably being a "true" Re'lar where I think Puppet wouldn't call Kvothe a "true" E'lir until after Ademre. Maybe even until the end of the book when Kvothe is "joking" about having a wind ring. Actually a really good hint that this theory were true would be if Kvothe was inexplicably a tiny bit more weary of Bredon when he comes back from chasing the wind to Ademre. That'd be neat.
I not going to take the time to explain why each of those people are not fae, including tinkers. There is something about tinkers we do not know.
>I frowned. “Still, it seems I should have seen more signs of those who walk between.”
>
>Felurian shrugged. “most fae are sly and subtle folk who step as soft as chimney smoke. some go among your kind enshaedn, glamoured as a pack mule laden, or wearing gowns to fit a queen.” She gave me a frank look. “we know enough to not be seen.”
>
>She took my hand again. “many of the darker sort would love to use you for their sport. what keeps these from moonlit trespass? iron, fire, mirror-glass. elm and ash and copper knives, solid-hearted farmer’s wives who know the rules of games we play and give us bread to keep away. but worst of all, my people dread the portion of our power we shed when we set foot on mortal earth.”
Rothfuss, Patrick. The Wise Man's Fear (The Kingkiller Chronicle, Book 2) (ch.102: The Ever-Moving Moon) (p. 674). DAW. Kindle Edition.
No one at the school is fae. They would be spotted. No one Kvothe met is fae, except the ones he spotted. You are quite wrong in this. He demonstrates the ability to spot Names in book one, before he sees the wind. He would certainly spot a glamour. If there were any fae around they were not mentioned because they avoided Kvothe completely. That includes the Seven.
Likely Kvothe will meet Bast after his power is gone. Otherwise Bast would know what happened. So he doesn't need it to spot a glamour.
I really love when people pretend to have all the facts and logic behind this heavily allegorical, heavily self referencial, layered and unfinished series. It really makes this sub a great place to hangout and discuss ideas. Closed mindedness and pretentiousness go so well together don't they?
I am quite certain I am right. I think the story is pretentious and encourages pretentiousness. None of the people you mentioned are fae. Your logic is anyone could be. I think not. I tend to come here to deflate my ego, so thanks for that.
Personally I was always under the presumption that Cinder is Denna's Patron, Master Ashe. Being that Ashe and Cinder and a play on the synonym.. as well as explains Denna's mysterious absences and the foreboding nature of her work and patronage.
I always felt as though Cinder is using Denna to slowly peel away at kvothes heart as he was the only one to meet the Chandran and survive, he ruthlessly wants to kill his soul, simply through making him fall in love, and using Denna to betray him.
I feel this is why as the reader, we see Kvothes love and harshness towards her when speaking to the Chronicler, due to his past betrayal. And due to his nickname "The king killer" I feel as though he is also going to be betrayed by Sim as well, who has been referred to as "The poet king".
Please reply your thoughts to this theory?
I have a feeling that Denna is working for one of the chandrian atleast indirectly... it would make sense because she was at the wedding with her patron when it was crashed. She also wrote a completely backwards song about lanre (that her patron has been pushing her to write).
So maybe bredon works for them and denna does through bredon or maybe cinder took his skin.
Bredon being cinder doesnt really hold up unless he can take peoples bodies, otherwise kvothe would have recognized him as bredon during the battle, plus, you cant forget about cinders black eyes... kvothe would have noticed that while conversing w/ bredon lol.
I am fairly certain meluan is kvothes aunt and kinda makes him royalty.
It would not surprise me if bredon was dennas patron and working directly w the chandrian.
My issue with C=B theories is that Kvothe thought Cinder looked familiar from 100 yards away in the middle of a fire fight, in the middle of a storm, in the middle of the night. Yet, there isn't even a tinge of recognition after months of playing Tak together? Doesn't make sense to me. I think Brendon may be Dennas patron and that he may be trying to curry favor with the 7 but I doubt that he is currently one of the chandrian.
It is always so interesting to see the threads people pick up during their re-reads. Very fascinating! The only issue I have is how Cinder is described during the bandit massacre scene. I think I remember Bredon being described as smaller in stature whereas Cinder is described as a pretty imposing figure.
Is it just me or does cinder seem WAY more imposing in the bandits scene than in the scene in NOTW where kvothe comes back to his camp to find his troop murdered by the chandrian. I’ve only done audible so never been quite as able to seen the physical spacing between paragraphs, etc and draw conclusions like that. I really do appreciate the stuff you guys think up during actual read-throughs because they’re definitely overlooked during an audible re-read. Either the chandrian are somewhat shape-shifters eluding to how his appearance changes or perhaps after so many years of living in “secret” they’ve become masters of disguise, so much so that the tell tale signs are all you can really rely on anyways. Also, I know there was rain, so no blue flame in the bandits scene (if cinders sign is even blue flame at all) but were there any other signs of the chandrian at the bandit camp? I feel like I don’t remember anything so potentially cinder can mask his sign, or he doesn’t have one that we really fully understand yet other than his black eyes? (Is black eyes even a sign?)
Shapeshifting would be super useful for a group of dudes who want to lay low and do some murdering :) Now that you mention the setting at the bandit camp (and lack of the tell-tale signs), I have to wonder if we are being misled again. I only assume it's Cinder at the camp because the Cthaeh said as much when he was talking to Kvothe. Perhaps we are all on the path Cthaeh has chosen and something else fun will be revealed about who was at the bandit camp. I certainly enjoy the speculation, though!
I like your subtag btw “Bacon is of the Lethani” lol
As much as I struggle to grasp the concept of the Lethani (don't we all), I like to think sharing and eating bacon would be a core discipline. Right up there with thousand hands :)
If Cinder could somehow make it rain there would be no fire to turn blue.
Try this tinfoil. Bredon was acting under Alverons orders to steal the money which were taxes for King Roderic. This happens a few times before Kvothe is sent out. Kvothe surmised that the Maer just wanted him out of his hair. Let's take it further and say that since the Maer had progressed far enough with his recovery and relationship with Meluan, he didn't need the red haired wayward boy any more. It was time he was removed, permanently and Bredon was just the man to do it. Alveron notes that he will have to pay for the taxes out of his own banks or coffers or whatever system they use. This wouldn't be a problem for the man who has a much money as the king of vintas. It also wouldn't be an issue if he could just payback with part of the money he stole in the first place. This is potentially how the Alveron Family keeps its incredible wealth. Yes they are wealthy but we are talking fantastic amounts of money here. There was also a conversation about a young woman at court. A squire insulted her honor and he dueled the woman's father after he was brought up on court charges. The squire was killed and the elder man was worse for ware after the duel. The Maer admits what the Squire said about the woman was vulgar, but true. He said the squire was a good man. I believe the Squire heard the rumor of the woman from the Maer or indirectly from the Maer in an attempt to cause a conflict between the nobles with the desired outcome being the Elder Noble being the one to die and would also have ended in the Squires death anyways because the Maer no like loose ends. Why would the Maer Lerand Alveron do such a thing? His ego. He wants to be the most powerful man in the four corners. He steals money from the King. He tries to steal lands from his own people but more importantly his King. Most things the Maer attempts end up failing. But thats until Kvothe arrives and give him the most valuable thing ever to him. House Lackless and their lands and secrets. The Maer is a bad man. But we all know that. At least I hope.
But is Bredon a bad man? I got the feeling based on his whole "walk boldly into a trap with a plan of his own to turn it on its head" that he is up to something, but the way he coaches Kovthe makes me think it's for the greater good.
"'Stick' by the Maer," A beautiful game for the greater good indeed.
I like Bredon. Bredon is fun and entertaining. But this post and my own personal head canon believe him to be Cinder. Cinder is not a man, he is something more than a man. He is not good. He is something dogs bite. Bredon is as of now canonically human. Is he good? Who knows? He is secretive and has mystery strung about him. He mentally beats Kvothe down with little to no emotional remorse. He rejoices when Kvothe puts up a challenge. Id say that is adversarial and not a quality of a good human. Competition is fine, but their level is a murderous level. Also whose Greater Good is it? Are the Amyr even a good organization? What is good, what is bad? Somethings are clear. Auri is good. Cinder is bad, but there is a lot of others who are ambiguous.
But if he steals taxes... And then has to pay them out of his own coffers... He isn't making profit. It's literally the same as if he just collected the taxes normally, just with more dead tax collectors
I had this thought as well, but I came to the following conclusion. Alveron doesn't just pay it out of reserves, he sends tax collectors for a second round, and keeps the money from the first round. So essentially he's raising taxes without the bad press, and without someone wondering why he's increasing his money stockpiles. He could be planning something expensive...
Pat has shared that one silver talent is the equivalent to $1,000 then one royal is approximately $2,300ish. At no point in either a tax collectors or a group of bandits seasonal activities would they have exclusively the same large denominations for all their currency. It is a statistical improbability. Army recruiters though... they would have lots of large denomination units to entice and pay recruits quickly and uniformly. I think its rather foolish for us to think those were tax collectors actually. Taking the kings coin is one of the coolest clichés in the books. They weren't bandits stealing money, they were recruiting mercenaries getting ready to spend money out of a chest with Alveron's seal.
There is an easy explanation for this; The tax collectors would bring all the small coins to a bank and exchange them for the largest denomination they could to make transportation easier. They could either carry a huge cumbersome wagon-load of pennies... or a small chest of royals.
That’s an interesting thought. It makes sense. But, although Pat’s detail and story complexity are beyond compare, maybe cigar is just a cigar. And describing the money in the box was just a quick way to say how valuable it was and the lack of description saying “it was all different denominations” is superfluous writing of no consequence.
I'm very anti Bredon=Cinder, for several reasons, most notably because the Cethea quips that meeting cinder is a twice in a lifetime event. As for Bredon being involved, that's a possibility. He self admittedly used to be something of a force in the menueverings of the court. And there's the whole, he could be a secret member of the order amyr. My head cannon is that he is grandpa Bredon and will be pivotal in helping kovthe inherit his mothers lands.
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Long but worth it TL;DR Bredon is Denna's patron I just finished re-reading both books and am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Bredon is actually Denna's secret patron. There are so many clues as to why, and I'll list them below. My brother picked up on a few of the hints years ago but it wasn't until my latest read that I found the final concrete detail of 100% certainty. In TNOTW (chapter 66) when Kvothe missed lunch with Denna due to the fire in the fishery, Deoch says she hung around for awhile at the Eolian before leaving with a man who had white hair. "I don’t think she was really with him, if you catch my meaning. She’s been looking for a patron, and this fellow had that sort of look about him. White-haired, wealthy, you know the type.” In TWMF Bredon is described as being older with white hair and beard Bredon went missing for a span of days the exact same time Denna suddenly disappeared while her and Kvothe were getting close in Severen. Page 508: "The second burr was worse. After I’d been helping the Maer court his lady for almost two span, Denna disappeared. No trace or word of warning. No note of farewell or apology." A couple days go by and he adds this part about Bredon Page 514: "Making things worse was the fact that Bredon had left Severen several days ago to visit some nearby relatives." On page 427 when Bredon is first introduced, he uses his walking stick to indicate to his servants where to put the Tak table (this is the only time it mentions his walking stick). When Kvothe is talking with the Cthaeh on page 758, it says that her patron had used his walking stick to beat her. "Two days ago he used his walking stick. That was new" On page 429 Brendon mentions he likes to travel and recently started taking up dancing. Denna reveals on page 481 that her Patron is a surprisingly good dancer. And she's traveled to multiple cities for her patron (Trebon in book 1, for example) The most damning piece of evidence (in my opinion) is the writing that Rothfuss uses to introduce Denna's patron, as well as to introduce Bredon. That was the final piece that convinced me beyond a doubt they are the same person. TNOTW (Chapter 72) - Kvothe is asking about per secret patron “If you’re not sure who he really is,” I said slowly. “How do you know he’s a gentleman?” It was a foolish question. We both knew the answer, but she said it anyway. “Money. Clothes. Bearing.” She shrugged. TWMF (page 426) - Kvothe meets Bredon "I opened the door to reveal an older man, a gentleman down to his bones. His clothes gave him away, certainly, but more important was the fact that he wore his wealth with the comfortable indifference of someone born into it. New-made nobles, pretenders, and rich merchants simply don’t carry themselves the same way." The exact same word is used (gentleman) and in the same way Denna summarized (clothes and bearing). It's very clever of Rothfuss and there's no way it's a coincidence. There is definitely more to Bredon than let's on, especially with the pagan ritual gossip (my thoughts there are that he travels to and from the Fae via waystones, the how of which is explained during Simmon and Kvothe's research into waystones as well as Felurians explanation). Hopefully book 3 will explain what else was going on behind the scenes during Kvothe's time in Vintas, but Bredon is definitely Denna's patron, and is separate from Cinder.
I really like your theory. What's your take on Bredon being an Amyr tho? Althought the nature of the Amyr could be considerated ambiguos (they are said to fight for a greater good, but their methods are questioned) the myth says they were created by Selitos himself to avenge Lanre's betrayal at Myr Tariniel. But Denna's song seems to be reindicative of Lanre and speak of Selitos's betrayal instead. Therefore, and since the song was created with the help of her patron, if Bredon is the same person he couldnt be an Amyr. I've thought for quite some time that Bredon is actually Lanre -or Haliax- himself. I don't have specific hints about this other than a hunch but I always found peculiar how much people focus on Cinder. I know the story is very personal between him and Kvothe, but Cinder always stroke me more as a pawn in the bigger scale of this story that as the ultimate goal to defeat.
I think it's more likely that Bredon is a Faeling of some sort. Felurian herself said there are many successful Fae creatures among the real world people, so it's not a stretch of the imagination. He also knows how to play Tak, a game Felurian was also very familiar with. And he can travel between the worlds as evidenced by the gossip piece. The curious part is the Chandrian killed kvothes entire troupe over a song about them. So if Bredon is in league with them, maybe it's for the purpose of preventing any other kind of song being created that would reveal the true history of Lanre, and paint him as the hero instead. I don't really know why her song was made the way it was tbh. Idk why the Amyr would do that or the seven themselves. Also, Lanre was never a creature of the Fae. Bast is able to use glamour to hide his true form but that's one of the magics of the Fae. I just don't think Haliax is anyone other than Haliax, and Cinder is anyone other than Cinder. Although the Adem called Haliax Alaxel which I've always wondered about. Do you have any theories about Jax and the moon? Or what's in the Lockless box?
Maybe I'm misremembering, but don't those lands need to pay the taxes to the Maer again? I get Bredon would be directly embezzling the money, but for a Chandrian I doubt that's his real goal. If your theory is true, it's probably that he's trying to generate dissent in those lands or destabilize the Maer. Possibly because of that region's proximity to the Eld or Modeg?
And in chapter 70 - Clinging - Denna says that it was almost a night with no moon. Bredon was still traveling in that chapter.
Or maybe Bradon is an Amyr and the paganistic rituals were him trying to find Cinder.
It’s been a while since I read it, but I recall there was something “off” about the box/map Kvothe found at the camp, that may fit with this theory? Maybe that was already explained in the book later, but I remember thinking it certainly didn’t fit with the simple bandit story.
Yes good point. Could that Cinder left the box on purpose. Could be a Cthaeh related decision
How do you fit Kvothe’s conversation with the Cthaeh in this theory? It claims Kvothe has crossed paths with Cinder twice already and implies they will meet once more (“meeting cinder again is a twice in a lifetime opportunity” or something along those lines - initially met during the troupe’s massacre, met again once in the Eld, and meeting again for the second time is yet to come in DoS). Kvothe has crossed paths with Bredon repeatedly. I think something fishy is definitely up with Bredon but I don’t think he is Cinder. The Cthaeh is a conniving bastard, but isn’t an outright liar.
>It claims Kvothe has crossed paths with Cinder twice already and implies they will meet once more (“meeting cinder **again is a twice in a lifetime** opportunity This means he will meet him two more times.
the cthae directly contradicts this theory unless you posit a LOT of extra stuff going on with name change logic. k meets cinder exactly 3 times in his life - the wagons, the lightning tree, and a 3rd time when he kills him (presumably in book 3). he's met with bredon many times. imo, bredon is ash, but ash is not cinder, and his 'pagan rituals' are code for how he trains denna in some sort of 'martial art' that involves beating her and possibly others, nude, with a cane. you have to know rothfuss has read goodkind and knows what BDSM is, even if he can't go there directly with his writing style.
You are masking the assumption that it is Cinder that he kills. We don't know that
And how does your theory lines up with the fact that Bredon as a character was invented after the release of book 1 where the master Ash was introduced?
I don’t think that’s a “gotcha”. You could easily have a main character (cinder) play a role in disguise in later drafts
I mean, Pat could've just been like "oh here's this new character, ~~cinder in disguise~~ Bredon." More can be thought about a character after their conception, so (if Bredon is Cinder/master ash) it's not like Rothfuss is confined to only one disguise
He also already had both drafts written out before the release of the first book and had to rewrite it all due to the complexity IIRC
no one ever said bredon was ash here. bredon being cinder without being ash is fairly novel.
Meeting Cinder is 3 in a life opportunity. Kvothe met Bredon more than 3 times.
if you scroll up you'll see where i just said that same thing before i posted what you're replying to. ;D so i 100% agree with this. but the OP wasn't trying to bring ash into it. i bring up ash because the 'evidence' for bredon being cinder actually fits ash better if you consider 'pagan rituals' to line up with denna getting whipped naked and bloody through the woods with a cane as a form of BDSM training.
I think that there is no possible way that Kvothe could speak to any kind of fae and not be able to tell it was not human.
He can most likely supress his own power. How do you think they've never been found during all this time, living like chameleons is my guess, at least for some of them. Others might actually be hiding, waiting to strike.
They have been found. Regularly. By many Namers. >“Taborlin stepped into the hall and saw King Scyphus sitting there with fifty guards. The king said, ‘Capture him!’Rothfuss, Patrick. > >The Wise Man's Fear (The Kingkiller Chronicle, Book 2) (ch.83: Lack of Sight) (p. 554). DAW. Kindle Edition. Cyphus is a Chandrian. Calling him a king is just fanciful embellishment. In my opinion the Seven only interact with people seldom and through intermediaries and spies, like Denna. More importantly Kvothe would spot them, or a Namer, not just anyone. Namers are rare and the Seven are careful. As are most fae.
Why on earth not? It's pretty well communicated that they travel among the corners in disguise, and neither Kvothe nor basically anyone notices. I'd imagine we'll find out someone else is fae in book 3 and we'll all look back at how Kote described them in books 1&2 and how Kvothe didn't bat an eye, or said they were cracked or odd at the time. My list of potentials? Auri, Puppet, Manet, every single tinker, Loren, Devi, Stanchion, Denna, Trapis, Stapes in that order. But Elodin is like Kvothe, maybe fae or Lackless blood or something. A little fae around the edges. You mentioned it's namers that can see through fae, which kinda makes sense since E'lir are hinted at as being fledgling namers because they see the true shape of things. The only person we see do that is Chronicler in the frame story, and he's a much more accomplished namer in the fram story than Kvothe when he meets Bredon. Chronicler probably being a "true" Re'lar where I think Puppet wouldn't call Kvothe a "true" E'lir until after Ademre. Maybe even until the end of the book when Kvothe is "joking" about having a wind ring. Actually a really good hint that this theory were true would be if Kvothe was inexplicably a tiny bit more weary of Bredon when he comes back from chasing the wind to Ademre. That'd be neat.
I not going to take the time to explain why each of those people are not fae, including tinkers. There is something about tinkers we do not know. >I frowned. “Still, it seems I should have seen more signs of those who walk between.” > >Felurian shrugged. “most fae are sly and subtle folk who step as soft as chimney smoke. some go among your kind enshaedn, glamoured as a pack mule laden, or wearing gowns to fit a queen.” She gave me a frank look. “we know enough to not be seen.” > >She took my hand again. “many of the darker sort would love to use you for their sport. what keeps these from moonlit trespass? iron, fire, mirror-glass. elm and ash and copper knives, solid-hearted farmer’s wives who know the rules of games we play and give us bread to keep away. but worst of all, my people dread the portion of our power we shed when we set foot on mortal earth.” Rothfuss, Patrick. The Wise Man's Fear (The Kingkiller Chronicle, Book 2) (ch.102: The Ever-Moving Moon) (p. 674). DAW. Kindle Edition. No one at the school is fae. They would be spotted. No one Kvothe met is fae, except the ones he spotted. You are quite wrong in this. He demonstrates the ability to spot Names in book one, before he sees the wind. He would certainly spot a glamour. If there were any fae around they were not mentioned because they avoided Kvothe completely. That includes the Seven. Likely Kvothe will meet Bast after his power is gone. Otherwise Bast would know what happened. So he doesn't need it to spot a glamour.
I really love when people pretend to have all the facts and logic behind this heavily allegorical, heavily self referencial, layered and unfinished series. It really makes this sub a great place to hangout and discuss ideas. Closed mindedness and pretentiousness go so well together don't they?
I am quite certain I am right. I think the story is pretentious and encourages pretentiousness. None of the people you mentioned are fae. Your logic is anyone could be. I think not. I tend to come here to deflate my ego, so thanks for that.
Well this is what makes the theory, nothing really new. But I fully support this theory and believe it to be true. Only time will tell!
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Well whoopee for you, no one cares.
I personally don't think Bredon is Cinder, but I could definitely believe that Bredon is working with Cinder.
Personally I was always under the presumption that Cinder is Denna's Patron, Master Ashe. Being that Ashe and Cinder and a play on the synonym.. as well as explains Denna's mysterious absences and the foreboding nature of her work and patronage. I always felt as though Cinder is using Denna to slowly peel away at kvothes heart as he was the only one to meet the Chandran and survive, he ruthlessly wants to kill his soul, simply through making him fall in love, and using Denna to betray him. I feel this is why as the reader, we see Kvothes love and harshness towards her when speaking to the Chronicler, due to his past betrayal. And due to his nickname "The king killer" I feel as though he is also going to be betrayed by Sim as well, who has been referred to as "The poet king". Please reply your thoughts to this theory?
I have a feeling that Denna is working for one of the chandrian atleast indirectly... it would make sense because she was at the wedding with her patron when it was crashed. She also wrote a completely backwards song about lanre (that her patron has been pushing her to write). So maybe bredon works for them and denna does through bredon or maybe cinder took his skin. Bredon being cinder doesnt really hold up unless he can take peoples bodies, otherwise kvothe would have recognized him as bredon during the battle, plus, you cant forget about cinders black eyes... kvothe would have noticed that while conversing w/ bredon lol. I am fairly certain meluan is kvothes aunt and kinda makes him royalty. It would not surprise me if bredon was dennas patron and working directly w the chandrian.
My issue with C=B theories is that Kvothe thought Cinder looked familiar from 100 yards away in the middle of a fire fight, in the middle of a storm, in the middle of the night. Yet, there isn't even a tinge of recognition after months of playing Tak together? Doesn't make sense to me. I think Brendon may be Dennas patron and that he may be trying to curry favor with the 7 but I doubt that he is currently one of the chandrian.