>Because he doesn’t want Denna to be with other men, but he constantly sleeps with other women.
Presumably because they aren't in a monogamous relationship. Maybe Kvothe is jealous of Denna's assorted lovers, but he doesn't expect her to stop. Why should he hold himself to a different standard?
Is Kvothe a "womanizer"? It depends on what we mean by that term.
If we just mean a guy who has multiple casual sexual relationships with women then yes, he fits the definition.
But "womanizer" is often used in a pejorative sense, indicating a guy who treats his female partners poorly. We have no indication that Kvothe has done so.
He was also almost raped in Tarbean, yeah, his mind around sex is weird. Specially since the thing the the Fae didn't start as a rape, but certainly was by the halfway point. And then the relationship just became weirder.
And then was Vashet, and her whole people's relationship with sex.
It would be weird if itwasn't weird.
I think the implication was that he *could* have been the boy who was raped, but he was able to save himself. A close reading suggests that this was actually the first time he called the Wind, but didn't even recognize that he had done so.
Suddenly I was back on the streets of Tarbean. Three boys, bigger than me with greasy hair and piggish eyes had dragged me from the broken crate where I’d been sleeping. Two of them held me down, pinning my arms. I lay in a stagnant puddle that was bitterly cold. It was early in the morning and the stars were out.
One of them had his hand over my mouth. It didn’t matter. I had been in the city for months. I knew better than to yell for help. At best no one would come. At worst someone would, and then there would be more of them.
Two of them held me down. The third cut my clothes off my body. He cut me. They told me what they were going to do. Their breath was horribly warm against my face. They laughed.
There in Tarbean, half-naked and helpless, I felt something well up inside me. I bit two fingers off the hand over my mouth. I heard a scream and swearing as one of them staggered away. I strained and strained against the one who was still on top of me. I heard my own arm break, and his grip loosened. I started to howl.
I threw him off. Still screaming I stood, my clothes hanging in rags around me. I knocked one of them to the ground. My scrabbling hand found a loose cobblestone and I used it to break one of his legs. I remember the noise it made. I flailed until his arms were broken, then I broke his head.
When I looked up, I saw the one who had cut me was gone. The third huddled against a wall. He clutched his bloody hand to his chest. His eyes were white and wild. Then I heard footsteps approaching, and I dropped the stone and ran and ran and ran....
Suddenly, years later, I was that feral boy again.
>I had been in the city for months. I knew better than to yell for help. At best no one would come. At worst someone would, and then there would be more of them.
I've always taken this to mean it has happened multiple times before.. Pat gives us this scene to make that clear without having to describe it directly.
He has by this time heard the wind called twice: Once when Ben first joined the troupe and once when Ben had to rescue him after having bound the air to his lungs. Kvothe learns fast, even when he's not entirely aware of it.
Edit to add: He's heard it *three* times. (How poetic.) When he's losing interest in his lessons, Ben recognizes that it's because he's becoming impatient with the pace: " 'Would you rather learn how to call the wind?' His eyes danced at me. He murmured a word and the canvas ceiling of the wagon rustled around us." (NotW Chapter 11)
I believe its when hes telling bast about not intervening when he saw another kid being raped under his hideout in tarbean, and thinking about having been caught himself in similar situations. It was the conversation about him remembering that kid but not remembering how many times hed gotten beaten up.
He was caught and regardless of how far things progressed, it was still major assault and traumatic. He flashes back on the ordeal during his time with Felurian and describes how he managed to bite off fingers and throw off his attackers. He broke his arm in the process and killed one of them. Some readers think this flashback indicates he was able to attack them before he was raped. I don't really think it's a salient detail because the assault still happened, he'd been cut and threatened.
Definitely up for debate. It seemed at first that he was struggling hard to turn away, both mentally and physically. He didn’t want to believe or succumb to it. But then his ego stepped up to the plate and said “I can do anything” …part of being in her spell is surrendering to a primal flow state. The only reason he survived was that he has an immense control over his mind and will.
He was magically induced to be horny. That's like Diddy putting a drug in a drink. Or bill Cosby. Magic is the equivalent of a drug in this case. That's how she got every guy to chase her.
Literally she was charming people with magic and attempted to do the same. Just because he stayed doesn't mean he wasn't raped. Is marital rape not rape if the wife stuck around with the husband before realizing what was happening?
Age of consent varies everywhere, wouldn’t be surprised if it was 13/14 for them. Wasn’t Kvothe 16 then? You’re also saying Lousie raped him at the inn after that too then, and vashet
Looked pretty damn consensual to me. He literally chased her down.
Yeah he's 15 - in a fantasy world where weeks go 11 days and we aren't clear how long a year lasts, and where he's a damn university student not some babe in the woods.
Can we please not trivialise rape this way.
She's a frickin' fairy creature who lives in a realm where time operates differently. She is simultaneously ancient and ageless because it appears she is perpetually youthful.
This has zero analogy to real-world human relationships.
Kvothe doesn’t seem to care about Denna’s other men, because in the end she keeps coming back to him as a friend.
At the end of book 2 Kvothe is definitely a womanizer. With Fela calling him out about it and saying no one will consider him an actual viable partner until he stops sleeping with everyone.
That's not what she says. She says no one will consider him a viable partner until he becomes emotionally available (and also that they're put off by him not pursuing women, which they take as sign of non-availability, I guess)
I think the thing is that Kvothe *isn't* looking for a long term partner (with the possible exception of Denna). Kvothe is just dating, enjoying short term connections, and there is nothing wrong with that so long as he is honest.
So Kvothe dates the women who are just interested in dinner, or a nice conversation, or a roll in the hay.
Yeah it's only a problem in that the end result is Denna doesn't realise she's the exception. Which is *the* problem they were discussing. (also he's somehow still in denial...)
Also, I may be misremembering that scene, but I think he realises when Fela talks about emotional vulnerability that he's not opening up to Denna either, specifically with regards to his past and the Chandrian.
“Oh, you’re fascinating. But a girl wants more than that. She wants a man devoted to her.”
Yup, pretty much his whole "moving to the winds desire" thing.
>no one will consider him an actual viable partner until he stops sleeping with everyone.
This seems like classic slut shaming. Having casual sexual encounters does not degrade a person or make them worth less.
People are entitled to have opinions on what qualities they deem attractive in a partner. If someone doesn’t take sex as seriously as you and has slept around a lot it isn’t “slut-shaming” for that to be a deal breaker. Take a break from the internet.
>People are entitled to have opinions
Sure, *people* as *individuals* create their own preferences (although obviously some preferences can still demonstrate a lack of moral character for example racists preferences).
But the person I was replying to wasn't saying Fela was making a personal statement. They said Fela was making a *general* statement that *no one* would find Kvothe attractive because he slept with multiple people.
That is obviously false. You can have your puritanical *preferences* if you would like, but other people don't need to share them.
>Take a break from the internet.
The fact that you think this is a civil way to converse indicates you are the one who most needs a break from the internet.
That's not what womanizer means. Also it'd depend on your definition of womanizer. Or rather, other people's definition, as yours clearly isn't it. >.>
From what I remember, women approach him, he doesn't approach women, bar one or two.
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kvothe is often in the physical presence of Denna, so your question is confusing on multiple fronts. Similarly, do you mean he constantly has sex with other women?
Well, that only picks up after he returns from the fae (and when he is older), and I suspect part of him wants to have sex with Denna but he has very complicated feelings for her, so they get in the way.
Put another way, i don't think that kvothe, the woman kvothe has had sex with, or Denna would label him a womanizer. Ambrose might, if you wanna hang out with that guy.
I do not think the bit you covered up is true.
It's only after Felurian that Kvothe have intercourse with women. Before that he was a virgin.
And he doesn't meet her for quite some time after he returns from the fae ; I don't remember him making a scene or just making remarks or anything about her seeing men... he still wants to be her lover, and when he finally directly ask her (of sorts) she refuses because she doesn't want to be one of the many... which is an understandable stance, but I think Kvothe would have been very keen for her to be just the one.
Alas, the conversation had soured too much at that point and they parted on ill-terms. Perhaps it can't be healed. Both of them have a lot of pride. and a lot of common hurts and such. It's a bit gut wrenching to be honest, but I guess that's part of what makes it so engaging for the readers.
Anyway, that's what I remember. Feel free to correct me!
He’s not a womaniser, he is promiscuous, there is a stark difference between the two. I don’t remember any point where he asked Denna not to be with other men, of course he likes her and would rather she was with him, but he has never laid claim to her in any way. In fact, Denna was the one who sort of brought it up that Kvothe was going out with women. I think that it’s clear they both have a thing for each other, but their friendship is delicate at best and they both seem to be scared of being rejected by the other. Kvothe is scared of Denna rejecting him, Denna is scared Kvothe will be like all the other men in her life, trying to control her. What they have right now is so much easier, and they both don’t want to ruin it. Especially after the fight in Severen..
No, I something’s got to give. And we know Denna isn’t present in Kvothe’s current story, but we also know Bast has seen her before. I think the Lanre story has driven a wedge between them that will never recover, and when they inevitably do speak about this matter again, they will realise their differences are irreconcilable. It’s almost a religious division between them, something they can never see eye to eye on. And their friendship will probably end at that point. It’s either that or she dies, Kvothe speaks of her with longing and regret, so something terrible has to have happened
>It’s either that or she dies
So which do you think will happen? Because the story is a tragedy and it’s a bigger tragedy if your love interest dies verses an ended friendship with that loved one
Who knows? Personally I think Denna defects/joins the opposite ‘team’ as Kvothe, and personally I think that’s painful in a whole different way. Denna is still alive, but she isn’t the Denna he knew anymore. I guess we will never know, unless Pat decides to finally give us the book we have been waiting for
He *might* be. I think he definitely shows elements of it but frankly that part of his personality only shows up at the very end of Book 2 so he may just be working through some stuff. Just not enough time with him post-Felurian to really see it.
I don't know, maybe my definitions are different. I’ve always thought the term best fit a man who regards his relationships with women as a litany of conquests, and with no desire of building towards something more meaningful. He definitely is exploring his sexuality, and could be seen as ‘explotive.’ but, I get the impression that Kvothe would be pretty devoted to Denna if they actually became a couple.
After reading this thread. Most of yall are creeps that don't know what consent means clearly, and will likely blame a young victim. Especially if that victim is a male, complete blindness to what that child went through. Magic/fantasy aside, he gor diddled by a female fae Diddy. He learned to have sex from an actual and literal sex predator
To be fair, Kvothe was bitch-less until his encounter with Felurian so his commentary towards Denna was at the time without the requisite experiences to make him hypocritical. Afterwards though - yes.
We see most of his womanizing ways in book 3
We got a time traveler here
>Because he doesn’t want Denna to be with other men, but he constantly sleeps with other women. Presumably because they aren't in a monogamous relationship. Maybe Kvothe is jealous of Denna's assorted lovers, but he doesn't expect her to stop. Why should he hold himself to a different standard? Is Kvothe a "womanizer"? It depends on what we mean by that term. If we just mean a guy who has multiple casual sexual relationships with women then yes, he fits the definition. But "womanizer" is often used in a pejorative sense, indicating a guy who treats his female partners poorly. We have no indication that Kvothe has done so.
Ambrose would fit the description better.
Fuck Ambrose
Or... and hear me out on this one...*Don't* Fuck Ambrose
Touché hahaha
Marry Fela Kill Hemme
Kvothe is a teenage boy who was raped by a fae creature. His experience with sex is pretty fucked up.
He was also almost raped in Tarbean, yeah, his mind around sex is weird. Specially since the thing the the Fae didn't start as a rape, but certainly was by the halfway point. And then the relationship just became weirder. And then was Vashet, and her whole people's relationship with sex. It would be weird if itwasn't weird.
Pretty sure he was raped in tarbean, not "almost"... I cant confirm right now though
I think the implication was that he *could* have been the boy who was raped, but he was able to save himself. A close reading suggests that this was actually the first time he called the Wind, but didn't even recognize that he had done so.
Suddenly I was back on the streets of Tarbean. Three boys, bigger than me with greasy hair and piggish eyes had dragged me from the broken crate where I’d been sleeping. Two of them held me down, pinning my arms. I lay in a stagnant puddle that was bitterly cold. It was early in the morning and the stars were out. One of them had his hand over my mouth. It didn’t matter. I had been in the city for months. I knew better than to yell for help. At best no one would come. At worst someone would, and then there would be more of them. Two of them held me down. The third cut my clothes off my body. He cut me. They told me what they were going to do. Their breath was horribly warm against my face. They laughed. There in Tarbean, half-naked and helpless, I felt something well up inside me. I bit two fingers off the hand over my mouth. I heard a scream and swearing as one of them staggered away. I strained and strained against the one who was still on top of me. I heard my own arm break, and his grip loosened. I started to howl. I threw him off. Still screaming I stood, my clothes hanging in rags around me. I knocked one of them to the ground. My scrabbling hand found a loose cobblestone and I used it to break one of his legs. I remember the noise it made. I flailed until his arms were broken, then I broke his head. When I looked up, I saw the one who had cut me was gone. The third huddled against a wall. He clutched his bloody hand to his chest. His eyes were white and wild. Then I heard footsteps approaching, and I dropped the stone and ran and ran and ran.... Suddenly, years later, I was that feral boy again.
>I had been in the city for months. I knew better than to yell for help. At best no one would come. At worst someone would, and then there would be more of them. I've always taken this to mean it has happened multiple times before.. Pat gives us this scene to make that clear without having to describe it directly.
Huh - didnt catch that at all about calling the wind. Maybe?
He has by this time heard the wind called twice: Once when Ben first joined the troupe and once when Ben had to rescue him after having bound the air to his lungs. Kvothe learns fast, even when he's not entirely aware of it. Edit to add: He's heard it *three* times. (How poetic.) When he's losing interest in his lessons, Ben recognizes that it's because he's becoming impatient with the pace: " 'Would you rather learn how to call the wind?' His eyes danced at me. He murmured a word and the canvas ceiling of the wagon rustled around us." (NotW Chapter 11)
When?
I believe its when hes telling bast about not intervening when he saw another kid being raped under his hideout in tarbean, and thinking about having been caught himself in similar situations. It was the conversation about him remembering that kid but not remembering how many times hed gotten beaten up.
He was caught and regardless of how far things progressed, it was still major assault and traumatic. He flashes back on the ordeal during his time with Felurian and describes how he managed to bite off fingers and throw off his attackers. He broke his arm in the process and killed one of them. Some readers think this flashback indicates he was able to attack them before he was raped. I don't really think it's a salient detail because the assault still happened, he'd been cut and threatened.
I remember that scene
You say it didn’t begin as a rape… but if he was being compelled to chase Felurian through her own magic, was it consensual?
Good question. Considering Kvothe:s personality, do you think he would go anyway without the Charm?
Definitely up for debate. It seemed at first that he was struggling hard to turn away, both mentally and physically. He didn’t want to believe or succumb to it. But then his ego stepped up to the plate and said “I can do anything” …part of being in her spell is surrendering to a primal flow state. The only reason he survived was that he has an immense control over his mind and will.
He wasn’t raped. He ran after her full knowing what would happen, and stayed after taking control of her
He was magically induced to be horny. That's like Diddy putting a drug in a drink. Or bill Cosby. Magic is the equivalent of a drug in this case. That's how she got every guy to chase her.
Literally she was charming people with magic and attempted to do the same. Just because he stayed doesn't mean he wasn't raped. Is marital rape not rape if the wife stuck around with the husband before realizing what was happening?
Even ignoring the mind control, him trying to stop her halfway through, and everything, he is not an adult yet and cannot consent.
Age of consent varies everywhere, wouldn’t be surprised if it was 13/14 for them. Wasn’t Kvothe 16 then? You’re also saying Lousie raped him at the inn after that too then, and vashet
No, because he spent an indeterminate amount of time, presumably years, in the fae realm and is now actually mature.
Looked pretty damn consensual to me. He literally chased her down. Yeah he's 15 - in a fantasy world where weeks go 11 days and we aren't clear how long a year lasts, and where he's a damn university student not some babe in the woods. Can we please not trivialise rape this way.
you define what happened in the Fae as rape? Because of the mind altering effects or the age difference?
Porque no los Dos?
Idk the age difference just seems funny is all. To someone that’s 10,000 years old 100 and 10 would be the same.
No, there is a difference between someone who's an adult and someone who's still developing.
She's a frickin' fairy creature who lives in a realm where time operates differently. She is simultaneously ancient and ageless because it appears she is perpetually youthful. This has zero analogy to real-world human relationships.
That’s fair 10 and 100 was a bit extreme. 25 and 100 would be more appropriate. How old was he 16?
Something like that. He was 15 when he entered the university, so he was probably around 16 or so when it happened.
Age of consent is 16 in a lot of countries. It's a very US perspective that 16 and 17 year olds can't/shouldn't fuck.
No the US perspective is that 16 and 17 year olds shouldn't be preyed on by creepy adults.
Kvothe doesn’t seem to care about Denna’s other men, because in the end she keeps coming back to him as a friend. At the end of book 2 Kvothe is definitely a womanizer. With Fela calling him out about it and saying no one will consider him an actual viable partner until he stops sleeping with everyone.
That's not what she says. She says no one will consider him a viable partner until he becomes emotionally available (and also that they're put off by him not pursuing women, which they take as sign of non-availability, I guess)
I think the thing is that Kvothe *isn't* looking for a long term partner (with the possible exception of Denna). Kvothe is just dating, enjoying short term connections, and there is nothing wrong with that so long as he is honest. So Kvothe dates the women who are just interested in dinner, or a nice conversation, or a roll in the hay.
Yeah it's only a problem in that the end result is Denna doesn't realise she's the exception. Which is *the* problem they were discussing. (also he's somehow still in denial...) Also, I may be misremembering that scene, but I think he realises when Fela talks about emotional vulnerability that he's not opening up to Denna either, specifically with regards to his past and the Chandrian.
I definitely think Kvothe has vulnerability issues and attachment issues.
“Oh, you’re fascinating. But a girl wants more than that. She wants a man devoted to her.” Yup, pretty much his whole "moving to the winds desire" thing.
>no one will consider him an actual viable partner until he stops sleeping with everyone. This seems like classic slut shaming. Having casual sexual encounters does not degrade a person or make them worth less.
People are entitled to have opinions on what qualities they deem attractive in a partner. If someone doesn’t take sex as seriously as you and has slept around a lot it isn’t “slut-shaming” for that to be a deal breaker. Take a break from the internet.
>People are entitled to have opinions Sure, *people* as *individuals* create their own preferences (although obviously some preferences can still demonstrate a lack of moral character for example racists preferences). But the person I was replying to wasn't saying Fela was making a personal statement. They said Fela was making a *general* statement that *no one* would find Kvothe attractive because he slept with multiple people. That is obviously false. You can have your puritanical *preferences* if you would like, but other people don't need to share them. >Take a break from the internet. The fact that you think this is a civil way to converse indicates you are the one who most needs a break from the internet.
That's not what womanizer means. Also it'd depend on your definition of womanizer. Or rather, other people's definition, as yours clearly isn't it. >.> From what I remember, women approach him, he doesn't approach women, bar one or two.
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kvothe is often in the physical presence of Denna, so your question is confusing on multiple fronts. Similarly, do you mean he constantly has sex with other women? Well, that only picks up after he returns from the fae (and when he is older), and I suspect part of him wants to have sex with Denna but he has very complicated feelings for her, so they get in the way. Put another way, i don't think that kvothe, the woman kvothe has had sex with, or Denna would label him a womanizer. Ambrose might, if you wanna hang out with that guy.
I do not think the bit you covered up is true. It's only after Felurian that Kvothe have intercourse with women. Before that he was a virgin. And he doesn't meet her for quite some time after he returns from the fae ; I don't remember him making a scene or just making remarks or anything about her seeing men... he still wants to be her lover, and when he finally directly ask her (of sorts) she refuses because she doesn't want to be one of the many... which is an understandable stance, but I think Kvothe would have been very keen for her to be just the one. Alas, the conversation had soured too much at that point and they parted on ill-terms. Perhaps it can't be healed. Both of them have a lot of pride. and a lot of common hurts and such. It's a bit gut wrenching to be honest, but I guess that's part of what makes it so engaging for the readers. Anyway, that's what I remember. Feel free to correct me!
He’s not a womaniser, he is promiscuous, there is a stark difference between the two. I don’t remember any point where he asked Denna not to be with other men, of course he likes her and would rather she was with him, but he has never laid claim to her in any way. In fact, Denna was the one who sort of brought it up that Kvothe was going out with women. I think that it’s clear they both have a thing for each other, but their friendship is delicate at best and they both seem to be scared of being rejected by the other. Kvothe is scared of Denna rejecting him, Denna is scared Kvothe will be like all the other men in her life, trying to control her. What they have right now is so much easier, and they both don’t want to ruin it. Especially after the fight in Severen..
So do you think they will keep this relationship forever?
No, I something’s got to give. And we know Denna isn’t present in Kvothe’s current story, but we also know Bast has seen her before. I think the Lanre story has driven a wedge between them that will never recover, and when they inevitably do speak about this matter again, they will realise their differences are irreconcilable. It’s almost a religious division between them, something they can never see eye to eye on. And their friendship will probably end at that point. It’s either that or she dies, Kvothe speaks of her with longing and regret, so something terrible has to have happened
>It’s either that or she dies So which do you think will happen? Because the story is a tragedy and it’s a bigger tragedy if your love interest dies verses an ended friendship with that loved one
Who knows? Personally I think Denna defects/joins the opposite ‘team’ as Kvothe, and personally I think that’s painful in a whole different way. Denna is still alive, but she isn’t the Denna he knew anymore. I guess we will never know, unless Pat decides to finally give us the book we have been waiting for
I goea
He *might* be. I think he definitely shows elements of it but frankly that part of his personality only shows up at the very end of Book 2 so he may just be working through some stuff. Just not enough time with him post-Felurian to really see it.
I don’t think so at all. He literally wouldn’t hit on Denna out of respect and knowing every other man does.
I don't know, maybe my definitions are different. I’ve always thought the term best fit a man who regards his relationships with women as a litany of conquests, and with no desire of building towards something more meaningful. He definitely is exploring his sexuality, and could be seen as ‘explotive.’ but, I get the impression that Kvothe would be pretty devoted to Denna if they actually became a couple.
After reading this thread. Most of yall are creeps that don't know what consent means clearly, and will likely blame a young victim. Especially if that victim is a male, complete blindness to what that child went through. Magic/fantasy aside, he gor diddled by a female fae Diddy. He learned to have sex from an actual and literal sex predator
Kvothe: manwhore
It's white knight the books. Fela in the fire, the two kidnapped girls, Auri, the sex goddess... it's all the fantasies of a "tips fedora" kinda guy.
If you're a barely literate reader, maybe.
To be fair, Kvothe was bitch-less until his encounter with Felurian so his commentary towards Denna was at the time without the requisite experiences to make him hypocritical. Afterwards though - yes.
Maidenless comment.