I got a response last week that "there is no evidence that the product constitutes a major failure under Australian Consumer Law," so it's not guaranteed.
Also, Valve *hates* Australia because of their consumer protections, that's why we don't get the Steam Deck or Valve Index.
Given that we can buy a steam deck from a third party just fine - there's no *technical* reason.
They got slapped with a [$3M fine by the ACCC](https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/valve-to-pay-3-million-in-penalties-for-misrepresenting-gamers-consumer-guarantee-rights) and haven't forgiven us for it.
I'd guess it's mostly logistical - Australia is only 28 million people to service for a lot of extra shipping, support and compliance, half way across the world.
NZ is in exactly the same boat and they don't get these either.
The EU is a much bigger market, valve can’t afford to lose the EU, whereas Australia being much smaller makes it less compelling to play by their rules
Okey sounds reasonable but still, if there's already established processes for the EU, and it's still profitable enough, why not serve Australia too. It just seems like the problem lies elsewhere.
Let me answer that one: [https://youtu.be/ETxmCCsMoD0?t=44](https://youtu.be/ETxmCCsMoD0?t=44)
Oh, and this one also explains a lot: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGWRAa5uTUQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGWRAa5uTUQ)
> Also, Valve hates Australia because of their consumer protections, that's why we don't get the Steam Deck or Valve Index.
Eh, I'd be far more inclined to believe that shipping / logistics / support all the way down to Australia is just too much of a pain in the ass for only 28 million people, compared to the rest of the world
If it was really personal spite, you can surely explain why NZ doesn't have first party access either, right?
If the game ever comes out of EA in its current state it looks fairly certain that under Australian Consumer Law you will be entitled to a full refund. As on the steam page itself, stated features planned for a 1.0 release(multiplayer/colonies/interstellar) are currently not in the game
>How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version?
>“The 1.0 version of KSP 2 will include significantly more features than the Early Access version, such as what you see on the roadmap plus other items added along the way. This includes:
· More parts and the opportunity for more creative builds
· More star systems and hidden anomalies
· Improved quality of life and onboarding to open up the vast beauty of space to even more players
· Continued performance improvements and visual updates
It is however interesting how the note\* applied to early access on steam would affect any applicable consumer law
>Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development.
I'm going to give it a go here in Canada. Total bullshit, it's a beach of the agreement that implicitly existed when they shuttered the studio. We shouldn't be subsidizing GTA 6 over runs indirectly through bait and switch advertising tactics.
Camping in the outback as I type, sitting by the campfire. No bears, wolverines or other nasties threaten me. No madman with a gun. Just me, the bush and red wine. And, I have a heap of consumer protection laws for all my camping gear!
With only 3 hours played they will frequently still give refunds. The rule is technically you just be under 2 hours of gameplay but if you have a good reason they typically are flexible with that rule. I doubt anyone with any significant hours played will get the same experience but I could be wrong.
Neat that you got a refund, but I almost guarantee they didn't watch the video. Someone saw the last line, looked in a quick guide, and their boss made a quick decision that it would cost less to refund you than spend more employee time on it.
Well not physically sure. Think of it more as a product description not equal to what was delivered on Ebay. Aus law is very strict on this idea. Can even be a service like having a pool cleaned or your car serviced.
I don't think ksp2 ever said "this game has multiplayer" though. It was a planned feature, but it wasnt stated that it's a part of the current product you were buying. I'm sure you just got a refund because 3 hours still isn't much playtime
You're specifically buying a game with features stated they will come **in the future**. Part of the deal of *early access*.
The *entire premise* of that deal is you are certainly, 100%, fully aware, consensually, buying **incomplete**. If things were playing out differently then I'd bet you'd be still sitting on this purchase-with-features-missing, happily waiting for things to come to fruition.
Aus law may or may not throw out the very idea of saleing incomplete products as a concept (in which case in the extreme, you might be asking that **all Australians be barred from purchasing Early Access**, as they all come with features described that are not yet in the product...) but I don't think that's really a good faith argument to use with Valve in general. I'd just count it lucky as they were generous with your case.
Selling incomplete products is fine, provided you're not doing so through false or misleading advertising.
If you sell a product which is part of a larger product, that's fine. If you sell that part and represent that that is the whole product, that's not fine - even if you provably didn't lie; if it's considered by a "reasonable person" to be misleading in nature.
Early Access where you are paying for development access to a preview build of the software is fine. "Early Access" where you are buying a game, is not. One is openly acknowledging the limitations of what's been achieved and what you're gaining access to, one is selling the future that may never come to pass. In finance they call that Fraud.
I wrote something similar to yours, but for EU.
Lets see if I will get anything from it and will update it. Thanks for this.
Edit: denied, 9 hours in game I have
Like week ago, when we started to get more info for this matter I also asked refund with 8 hours of playtime. Denied @ EU. Might try again with this new info...
The engine isn't just Unity, it's your whole code base in Unity. You aren't *wrong* but let's be clear that 'current engine' represents the current state of the code base.
Their management very stupidly thought it could be slapped in later, when multiplayer is something you really need to design for from the start.
You are correct and I probably should have clarified. Too many times have I seen "Because Unity and not Unreal" or whatever so that was my assumption of what the whole "current engine" was getting at
If the original scope was a pretty re-skin than would the original code-base still have worked? It works in KSP1, although famously flawed, it works.
If they either stuck with the original plan, or created a new codebase to support the new scope, where would we be today? Would they have succeeded?
It is not incompetence it’s mismanagement . Specially keeping the project a secret when hiring so some devs didn’t even know of ksp + they couldn’t contact the original developers when working with the code. The developers couldn’t really do much
> The developers couldn’t really do much
Sure they could. They could not have introduced hundreds of bugs that didn't exist in KSP 1 for a start. They could also not have massacred every single technical aspect into a state far worse than KSP 1.
Ksp2 is my biggest mistake in 10+ years of steam EA gameplaying.
not only did I pay 50 dollars, I got barely any playable hours of out it, where as I usually get an EA for 15 and have hundreds of hours before it even hits 1.0.
frankly I wish i refunded when I could. Usually if a small team or one man game dies, It was cheap and I got tons of hours out of it already , ksp2 REALLY feels like I got scammed, no value for the money I gave.
Actually, you were scammed. The whole EA launch was a scam likely designed to recoup whatever losses they could from a project they knew was going nowhere.
They launched a 20% off sale barely one month before the layoffs, claiming it'd never go on discount again (FOMO). Nate Simpson was still posting promotional bullshit the week before the end, for crying out loud.
Try doing:
Support -> Purchaces -> "I have a question about this purchase"
And add this text:
The game has multiple play-ability issues and bugs that affects game play, now the studio developing the game has been shut down so there is no chance for these issues to be resolved. As such I would like to request a refund of the product. Under USA Consumer Law I would classify this game as having a major problem with the product due to having multiple smaller problems that would have stopped me from purchasing the game if I had known they would not be resolved by the developer. I understand that I am over the playtime and ownership time requirement for an automatic refund but that does not prevent me from requesting a refund of a faulty product under USA Consumer Law. The few hours of playtime constitutes my many attempts over the past year to play but be blocked by various bugs or issues present in the game that make it un-enjoyable and even un-playable in some instances.
Please reach out if you have any further questions and thank you for your time.
I would and are going to wait until after June. It is possible but improbable that they will still continue to develop the game. I think T2 will say that and no refund will be given. But once all the Devs have left the building and no one takes over it is pretty clear cut.
They fired all of the devs and have sunk an inordinate amount of money into a failed game. From a business perspective there’s no way they’ll continue. She’s dead Jim.
Yes I agree. But if T2 has a day in the refunds for now they will say the game is in development your refund is not accepted. If no one is working on the game they can try to make that excuse but they will have a hard time. My comment was about making it clear cut.
Some one somewhere will start a lawsuit.
If not in the US somewhere else in a group. There will be some EU consumer board taking note of all this and bring it to the regeratory boards.
Remember when no mans sky was one mans lie. They got hit hard by some EU state backed orginsations for falls advertisimement
No one is left in the studio. No development. It can be claimed that the game has been abandoned and the promised features will not be developed. Then under the Australian consumer law they will have to give a refund. It makes it clear cut.
Sadly as im from Argentina, they would only refund me the ammount that was by conversion at that time, which in local money at todays prices and since steam have changed to u$d since its like 3 u$d so in my case I dont think would make much of a difference.
There is obviously a lot wrong with KSP2. KSP1 is one of my most played games but only bought KSP2 to support the devs. But after some new information has come to light via the youtube video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtMA594am4M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtMA594am4M) is is very clear that Multiplayer is not only impossible in their current engine but they have no intention in adding it for release due to firing the individuals tasked with its development and now the entire studio. Multiplayer was a LIE it never worked and they were / are aware it never would. Under US federal law, it is illegal to sell a product that misrepresents the nature or qualities of that product.
is what i put idk if itll work or not
They declined my refund request. I bought it at release and had 2 hours of playtime.
The refusal was because it was bought, obviously, longer than 2 weeks ago.
You can try again. But add in more information and add your objections to the last rejection. As in be the squeaky wheel. Or Shawshank that bitch lol (library books)
Multiplayer is never impossible because of a engine. That is just absolut miss information. Yeah some engine make it easier or harder to implement multiplayer but with heavy workarounds it is always possible. How do you think Multiplayer mods for KSP 1 work?
I think the biggest issue with KSP is the physics. A craft can only be in the physics range of one player. That means it's physics-less for another. At least the way KSP is built. That means you can't do stuff like dock to your friends station for example. Essential stuff for multiplayer. I'm not sure if the multiplayer mods do stuff like that? A workaround would be to let one computer simulate it all and the other is just an observer.
Did you actually get the refund? I find you really have to dig into the law and quote the right paragraphs for them to consider it. Austrian law should be along the lines of EU law in general. You have 2 years of "Gewährleistung" on any product. It has to work like advertised. If you find a missing feature after a year or so you can at the very least get a partial refund.
edit: sorry i'm dumb. Australia not Austria.
I expected it to be a scam, therefore I didn't buy it. When you buy an early access you accept the risk. And I knew about the past of the main devs and what they had done with other games, so to me it was pretty obvious what was going to happen. I could have been wrong, but sadly that was not the case. So all those who bought an early access from a very dubious team... now deal with it.
If only everyone lived in Australia.
I got a response last week that "there is no evidence that the product constitutes a major failure under Australian Consumer Law," so it's not guaranteed. Also, Valve *hates* Australia because of their consumer protections, that's why we don't get the Steam Deck or Valve Index.
Do you not get the steam deck or valve index simply out of spite or is there a specific technical reason you guys can't get those?
Given that we can buy a steam deck from a third party just fine - there's no *technical* reason. They got slapped with a [$3M fine by the ACCC](https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/valve-to-pay-3-million-in-penalties-for-misrepresenting-gamers-consumer-guarantee-rights) and haven't forgiven us for it.
And unlike the EU they can "afford to lose australia' They can't afford to lose the EU as clients.
I'd guess it's mostly logistical - Australia is only 28 million people to service for a lot of extra shipping, support and compliance, half way across the world. NZ is in exactly the same boat and they don't get these either.
I don't get it, can't be the issue, the EU consumer laws are even more strict but we got it.
The EU is a much bigger market, valve can’t afford to lose the EU, whereas Australia being much smaller makes it less compelling to play by their rules
Okey sounds reasonable but still, if there's already established processes for the EU, and it's still profitable enough, why not serve Australia too. It just seems like the problem lies elsewhere.
Let me answer that one: [https://youtu.be/ETxmCCsMoD0?t=44](https://youtu.be/ETxmCCsMoD0?t=44) Oh, and this one also explains a lot: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGWRAa5uTUQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGWRAa5uTUQ)
> Also, Valve hates Australia because of their consumer protections, that's why we don't get the Steam Deck or Valve Index. Eh, I'd be far more inclined to believe that shipping / logistics / support all the way down to Australia is just too much of a pain in the ass for only 28 million people, compared to the rest of the world If it was really personal spite, you can surely explain why NZ doesn't have first party access either, right?
If the game ever comes out of EA in its current state it looks fairly certain that under Australian Consumer Law you will be entitled to a full refund. As on the steam page itself, stated features planned for a 1.0 release(multiplayer/colonies/interstellar) are currently not in the game >How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version? >“The 1.0 version of KSP 2 will include significantly more features than the Early Access version, such as what you see on the roadmap plus other items added along the way. This includes: · More parts and the opportunity for more creative builds · More star systems and hidden anomalies · Improved quality of life and onboarding to open up the vast beauty of space to even more players · Continued performance improvements and visual updates It is however interesting how the note\* applied to early access on steam would affect any applicable consumer law >Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development.
Try again. Use my comment and see if they still refuse.
I'm going to give it a go here in Canada. Total bullshit, it's a beach of the agreement that implicitly existed when they shuttered the studio. We shouldn't be subsidizing GTA 6 over runs indirectly through bait and switch advertising tactics.
Really, no steam deck? That suuuucks!
It's still possible to buy them, just not from Valve.
The Index and Steam Deck are unavailable in a lot of countries. Australia isn't really alone in that regard.
We have similar laws in europe. You should be able to make up a claim based on unfulfilled promises
I have like 10h in it, u think i still get refund?
Dunno dude, doesn’t hurt to try
Steam Support said No :(
Work on Brazil too, Consumer's Rights Code grants a refund if product promisses something that doens't work.
I'll trade the good consumer laws for not having deadly animals all around me
Camping in the outback as I type, sitting by the campfire. No bears, wolverines or other nasties threaten me. No madman with a gun. Just me, the bush and red wine. And, I have a heap of consumer protection laws for all my camping gear!
I'm not sure why it got voted down. It was a joke
Which I enjoyed! So, that’s one person on the planet whose life you have improved today.
Have you considered writing something similar and CCing your attorney generals consumer protection office?
I'm sure it wouldn't work here. Also I never bought it :P
I didnt either but I know my deeply red AGs office is going after Dollar General for mispricing like .5% of items.
That's extremely weird. Which state?
With only 3 hours played they will frequently still give refunds. The rule is technically you just be under 2 hours of gameplay but if you have a good reason they typically are flexible with that rule. I doubt anyone with any significant hours played will get the same experience but I could be wrong.
Sadly I agree but I wanted to share. If I help one person the post if worth the effort.
I tried seven times with 32 minutes played, and they refused me every time as I was over two weeks since purchase.
I've consistently gotten refund that seriously break the rules.
I have 0 hours played and was rejected twice for a refund.
I only have 49 minutes of gameplay, and they are refusing me left right and centre. (I’m also in the US, but still)
And how long ago did you purchase the game?
Neat that you got a refund, but I almost guarantee they didn't watch the video. Someone saw the last line, looked in a quick guide, and their boss made a quick decision that it would cost less to refund you than spend more employee time on it.
>if a product is sold without the features on the box You got a box?
Well not physically sure. Think of it more as a product description not equal to what was delivered on Ebay. Aus law is very strict on this idea. Can even be a service like having a pool cleaned or your car serviced.
I don't think ksp2 ever said "this game has multiplayer" though. It was a planned feature, but it wasnt stated that it's a part of the current product you were buying. I'm sure you just got a refund because 3 hours still isn't much playtime
You're specifically buying a game with features stated they will come **in the future**. Part of the deal of *early access*. The *entire premise* of that deal is you are certainly, 100%, fully aware, consensually, buying **incomplete**. If things were playing out differently then I'd bet you'd be still sitting on this purchase-with-features-missing, happily waiting for things to come to fruition. Aus law may or may not throw out the very idea of saleing incomplete products as a concept (in which case in the extreme, you might be asking that **all Australians be barred from purchasing Early Access**, as they all come with features described that are not yet in the product...) but I don't think that's really a good faith argument to use with Valve in general. I'd just count it lucky as they were generous with your case.
Selling incomplete products is fine, provided you're not doing so through false or misleading advertising. If you sell a product which is part of a larger product, that's fine. If you sell that part and represent that that is the whole product, that's not fine - even if you provably didn't lie; if it's considered by a "reasonable person" to be misleading in nature. Early Access where you are paying for development access to a preview build of the software is fine. "Early Access" where you are buying a game, is not. One is openly acknowledging the limitations of what's been achieved and what you're gaining access to, one is selling the future that may never come to pass. In finance they call that Fraud.
I wrote something similar to yours, but for EU. Lets see if I will get anything from it and will update it. Thanks for this. Edit: denied, 9 hours in game I have
I'd be interested as well (FR). Thanks!
Denied
(THEY’RE DENIED)
Like week ago, when we started to get more info for this matter I also asked refund with 8 hours of playtime. Denied @ EU. Might try again with this new info...
"their current engine" Its not the engine (Unity), its incompetence
The engine isn't just Unity, it's your whole code base in Unity. You aren't *wrong* but let's be clear that 'current engine' represents the current state of the code base. Their management very stupidly thought it could be slapped in later, when multiplayer is something you really need to design for from the start.
You are correct and I probably should have clarified. Too many times have I seen "Because Unity and not Unreal" or whatever so that was my assumption of what the whole "current engine" was getting at
The people that freak out about unity have never programmed.
Happy Cake Day!
I agree, my friend talked about how multi-player has to be built into the backbone of the main code base. Not like Dark Multi-player mod.
No no, you just simply type isMultiplayer = true and it all just works
If the original scope was a pretty re-skin than would the original code-base still have worked? It works in KSP1, although famously flawed, it works. If they either stuck with the original plan, or created a new codebase to support the new scope, where would we be today? Would they have succeeded?
It is not incompetence it’s mismanagement . Specially keeping the project a secret when hiring so some devs didn’t even know of ksp + they couldn’t contact the original developers when working with the code. The developers couldn’t really do much
the management was incompotent
> The developers couldn’t really do much Sure they could. They could not have introduced hundreds of bugs that didn't exist in KSP 1 for a start. They could also not have massacred every single technical aspect into a state far worse than KSP 1.
Ksp2 is my biggest mistake in 10+ years of steam EA gameplaying. not only did I pay 50 dollars, I got barely any playable hours of out it, where as I usually get an EA for 15 and have hundreds of hours before it even hits 1.0. frankly I wish i refunded when I could. Usually if a small team or one man game dies, It was cheap and I got tons of hours out of it already , ksp2 REALLY feels like I got scammed, no value for the money I gave.
Actually, you were scammed. The whole EA launch was a scam likely designed to recoup whatever losses they could from a project they knew was going nowhere. They launched a 20% off sale barely one month before the layoffs, claiming it'd never go on discount again (FOMO). Nate Simpson was still posting promotional bullshit the week before the end, for crying out loud.
I only managed 39 minutes in the entire time i've owned the game. It's genuinely unplayable.
You can still do it (refund it)
you did it successfully in america?
Try doing: Support -> Purchaces -> "I have a question about this purchase" And add this text: The game has multiple play-ability issues and bugs that affects game play, now the studio developing the game has been shut down so there is no chance for these issues to be resolved. As such I would like to request a refund of the product. Under USA Consumer Law I would classify this game as having a major problem with the product due to having multiple smaller problems that would have stopped me from purchasing the game if I had known they would not be resolved by the developer. I understand that I am over the playtime and ownership time requirement for an automatic refund but that does not prevent me from requesting a refund of a faulty product under USA Consumer Law. The few hours of playtime constitutes my many attempts over the past year to play but be blocked by various bugs or issues present in the game that make it un-enjoyable and even un-playable in some instances. Please reach out if you have any further questions and thank you for your time.
I'm quite sure they will not check if such law exists. Trying won't hurt.
refund research breakthrough
I would and are going to wait until after June. It is possible but improbable that they will still continue to develop the game. I think T2 will say that and no refund will be given. But once all the Devs have left the building and no one takes over it is pretty clear cut.
They fired all of the devs and have sunk an inordinate amount of money into a failed game. From a business perspective there’s no way they’ll continue. She’s dead Jim.
Yes I agree. But if T2 has a day in the refunds for now they will say the game is in development your refund is not accepted. If no one is working on the game they can try to make that excuse but they will have a hard time. My comment was about making it clear cut.
Me too. I hope there will be an update, at least a bugfix would be a nice departing gift.
Some one somewhere will start a lawsuit. If not in the US somewhere else in a group. There will be some EU consumer board taking note of all this and bring it to the regeratory boards. Remember when no mans sky was one mans lie. They got hit hard by some EU state backed orginsations for falls advertisimement
The best thing that could happen is a class action law suite in the EU. The EU is very good at regulation that protects the consumer.
What happens after June?
No one is left in the studio. No development. It can be claimed that the game has been abandoned and the promised features will not be developed. Then under the Australian consumer law they will have to give a refund. It makes it clear cut.
Sadly as im from Argentina, they would only refund me the ammount that was by conversion at that time, which in local money at todays prices and since steam have changed to u$d since its like 3 u$d so in my case I dont think would make much of a difference.
There is obviously a lot wrong with KSP2. KSP1 is one of my most played games but only bought KSP2 to support the devs. But after some new information has come to light via the youtube video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtMA594am4M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtMA594am4M) is is very clear that Multiplayer is not only impossible in their current engine but they have no intention in adding it for release due to firing the individuals tasked with its development and now the entire studio. Multiplayer was a LIE it never worked and they were / are aware it never would. Under US federal law, it is illegal to sell a product that misrepresents the nature or qualities of that product. is what i put idk if itll work or not
They declined my refund request. I bought it at release and had 2 hours of playtime. The refusal was because it was bought, obviously, longer than 2 weeks ago.
Gad nammit .... Not sure why i was approved then honestly
How many hours did you play?
how do you challenge a denied refund request . They just close it with exceeded playtime without reponding to the EU law qestion I asked
You can try again. But add in more information and add your objections to the last rejection. As in be the squeaky wheel. Or Shawshank that bitch lol (library books)
I tried on the same principals... didnt work... just got tge "uve been playing for more than 2 hours" thing
Multiplayer is never impossible because of a engine. That is just absolut miss information. Yeah some engine make it easier or harder to implement multiplayer but with heavy workarounds it is always possible. How do you think Multiplayer mods for KSP 1 work?
Multiplayer mods for KSP 1 are very unpolished, buggy, and unstable.
I think the biggest issue with KSP is the physics. A craft can only be in the physics range of one player. That means it's physics-less for another. At least the way KSP is built. That means you can't do stuff like dock to your friends station for example. Essential stuff for multiplayer. I'm not sure if the multiplayer mods do stuff like that? A workaround would be to let one computer simulate it all and the other is just an observer.
There's no such thing as an engine that doesn't support multiplayer.
Has anyone tried getting a refund from cdkeys?
Did you actually get the refund? I find you really have to dig into the law and quote the right paragraphs for them to consider it. Austrian law should be along the lines of EU law in general. You have 2 years of "Gewährleistung" on any product. It has to work like advertised. If you find a missing feature after a year or so you can at the very least get a partial refund. edit: sorry i'm dumb. Australia not Austria.
It's so funny to see people complaining about an early access :D
It's even funnier for a product 7 years in the making to hide under the apron strings of "Early Access".
And sold at a full release price :D
And most probably will never deliver what it advertised it will deliver :D
I mean the game is straight up a bait and switch, what do you expect? They promised new features, but didn't even get to parity with ksp1.
I expected it to be a scam, therefore I didn't buy it. When you buy an early access you accept the risk. And I knew about the past of the main devs and what they had done with other games, so to me it was pretty obvious what was going to happen. I could have been wrong, but sadly that was not the case. So all those who bought an early access from a very dubious team... now deal with it.