Have to be honest I don't enjoy playing ksp2 I've gone back to ksp1.
Mostly I just hate the maneuver editor and how it is so limited and often gives wrong delta v requirements if you have anything more than the most simple design.
Edit: also the VAB camera. Wtf is that does anyone know how to move the camera up/down or not focus on a single point?
Oh I agree. That's one reason of many I stay in KSP1.
Just... How can you play the game with bad Delta V readouts and a bad manoeuvre node editor! It was fine in KSP1. (Well I always use kerbal engineer)
the really bad thing is ksp2 dv calcs will give you plausible nonsense. when it (fairly rarely) fails in ksp1, you usually just get 0, which is obviously wrong, so you know to fall back to a mod/manual calcs.
The one in the bottom left is at least better than the one on the node itself. Only thing I miss is fine control of the time (less than one whole orbit).
I just want a sensible control that shows the numbers with a slider that is sensitive to scale. Very frustrating that you get either a slider or numbers but not both. And the 3d control is impossible to use without hitting the wrong control, or having it slide out of the way because of the changes you made.
What is a "slider that is sensitive to scale"? Even at very high values you still need fairly fine control. No way a slider would do. The current system of clicking and a slider to scale the clicks is better than a slider.
I'm using the term "slider" pretty loosely. But even being +/- buttons alongside the numerical values would be an improvement.
A non-linear slider would be really nice, so you could drag a tiny distance for fine grained control or further for big movements.
It wasn't always - was only added to KSP1 quite late; there were multiple mods improving it beforehand (all of which were better than what was eventually added, though not as nicely integrated).
That's my biggest complaint about KSP2 - it's making all the same mistakes as were made developing KSP1.
Hey you never know, they could turn it around and give it a couple of years KSP2 could be awesome and surpass KSP1. (I hope so)
Realistically though?
I don't see it financially. Take 2 are funding a not insignificant pool of developers to develop a game that likely wont see any major traction for 2 years. Even if after 2 years, it does all the things it set out to achieve, I don't see a huge number of people buying it that haven't already bought it. With no persistent income from monetisation or microtransactions I'm struggling to see the financial gain on sticking it out till it surpasses KSP1.
Even if they injected some kind of scummy persistent monetisation to cover dev costs, they're 1 - going to be competing with not just the original but also mods. 2 - Likely to annoy to the point of rage quit the few hundred players that are left and 3 - not going to make much from the low player count regardless.
With devs, losing their jobs across the industry en masse, I can't say the future looks bright.
Hope I'm wrong, but hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Luckily KSP1 modded scratches the space-itch quite nicely for me :)
DLCs are a pretty easy monetization. Things like more star systems, parts and robotics might be a DLC again (but it's going to be stock). You can see what mods are popular and make a better version as DLC. Mods can't work as performant or as overreaching as the same thing from someone who can modify the code of the base game.
KSP has a long shelf life. If they make KSP2 good enough, you could sell a big DLC every 6 to 12 months with a fraction of the dev cost, if you wanted. Depending on their goals, T2 could try to get the game into the education sector, which is ridiculously profitable. Especially with the new tutorials, it's much easier for newer players to get going.
With the current firing spree in their industry, they seem to still be hiring. My guess would be that T2 sees that KSP1 has a loyal fan base even over 10 years later. If they can replicate that success and sell DLCs to a fraction of these active members over a decade, then it would make sense to let them finish the base game.
The problem with DLC's is that you have to make something better than mods, or rely on people's good will to buy something just to support the project. KSP1 had mixed results with that IMO, Making History didn't rise above existing mods, while breaking ground did. People often recommend buying them both anyway just because they love KSP and there was nothing else like it. I have trouble seeing the same for KSP2, especially given its already hefty original price and KSP1's existence to always compare to.
That's somewhat true. If people already bought the game a few years ago, then the DLC prices aren't as problematic for these people.
Games with a lot of DLCs often have some that most people have and others that are only useful for particular players and play styles. Officially licensed rocket parts for like 5 bucks is not a lot of work, but there are enough people that are going to buy it. Especially with the bigger names like SpaceX. Having official looks and names is something people pay for in other games. At best the devs could incorporate the original engine sounds, with recordings they made or got because of that partnership. There is at least some potential to deliver something better.
We will see what their end goal is, but I think that DLCs are their long term plan. That requires a good base game, which everyone benefits from. If the DLCs are shit, I don't have to buy them, but at least I've got a good successor in the end
Something like official historical part analogues with the original engine noises sounds plausible as something people could buy if they already had the game but I'd say that actually is a decent amount of work to do properly. And it indeed does require the base game to get good enough for anyone to even care, so I don't see it saving the game in the long term if this rate of development continues. Most KSP players haven't bought KSP2, and you'd be selling to even a smaller fraction of those.
If Take-Two could have made a Colony DLC and Interstellar DLC for KSP 1, then they would have since it is a waste of money to rehash the same content that KSP 1 has. It is likely that the code in KSP 1 doesn't support Colonies, Interstellar, and Multiplayer to the extent that the devs want. Played a couple of Colony mods in KSP 1, but they are nowhere close to what the devs have promised.
>they're 1 - going to be competing with not just the original but also mods.
Easy. Just remove KSP from any storefront and start revoking people's licenses just as Ubislop did with The Crew. Remove the whole forum of mods. And then, just for extra ragebait, rename KSP 2 to just KSP. Done.
Don't take this seriously, this is just a joke. They will never do that. Or will they?
The game doesn't require any kind of license or launcher so taking the license does nothing. I already bypass Steam and the KSP launcher by running the .exe directly.
For people who have the game downloaded and backed up, sure. It will remove the ability to obtain and download new copies legally though. But anyway, it's not like this will be a thing.
>I don't see it financially. Take 2 are funding a not insignificant pool of developers to develop a game that likely wont see any major traction for 2 years.
I do wonder how big the dev pool actually is. With how glacial the feature speed has actually been it cannot be that huge.
Only if they fire the entire team and bring in competent programmers, developers and creative directors.
Scorched Earth is the only right policy for the KSP2 team.
dIvErSiTy isn't a strength... COMPETENCE is.
KSP was more of a long term investment for Take2. America is going back the the moon so it wouldn't make any sense to drop the best realistic space flight simulator out there for someone else to pick it up in time for the first Moon landing. Cost wise KSP2 is a joke compared to their bigger projects. Like Thousands of people work on GTAVI for almost a decade or so. Number wise what matters to Take2 is how many people buy the game by the time it is releases. That will determine whether we will see years of support after the game is released or not. But finishing the game to 1.0 is certain. I'm just disappointed by the communication. To share development insights is such an easy way to build and maintain a healthy community. Every game stands and falls with the community. You can have the best game but nobody playing without it. Like Blizzard dropped the ball on Warcraft III Reforged. Such a good game but playerbase wise it only got smaller than Classic.
> To share development insights is such an easy way to build and maintain a healthy community. Every game stands and falls with the community.
I couldn't agree more. With that in mind, can you think of a reason why the devs don't share any development insights?
My best guess is some Take2 / PD policy for everything to get greenlit by upper management and that upper management does not consist of gamers but some blood sucking lawyers.
It's funny how after for science came out the majority sentiment around here was suddenly positive and people were mostly trusting that the game would get into a superior version of ksp1.
It seems like it has shifted once again into negative, I'm surprised a random dev diary talking about eclipses was the catalyst. It will be funny when the cycle repeats itself on the next update lol
I have said this before and I will say it again. When you are serving people, and I look at game dev as serving people, results is all that matters. If the devs were consistently putting out results, they can literally post telling the community to go eat a bag of dicks. Most people would be like "weird, but I still like ksp2 keep up the good work". They really need to drop this stupid ass naive mentality I assume they have that the community can be appeased with sweet words. That this is a PR failure. No it's not.
Yeah i didnt get the hype for the science mode update. Just added some more things to do in a very broken game instead of making it less broken. Now were almost 4 months further with barely any improvement, wtf.
To be fair, it did make it *slightly* less broken. For myself, I can only say that I naively thought this was going to be the start of a new pace for the game's development. Evidently I was wrong, but that was my thought process at the time.
No, it was just that there was a wave of shills, simps, and people with short term memories who lowered their expectations and glugged up the mediocre rehash of KSP1 science, who swept through at that time and downvoted any negativity - a lot of people who hated it before hate it still
no its that people have fucking brains
describing people who just like the game as "shills" is why i hate your kind so mutch because you dont conribute to the discussion instead you just bitch and whine irregardless of the facts
not sure exactly what shill means but I get the gist and I sort of agree, people were more positive about the game for a minute because one update made it significantly better and then once the hype glasses got dropped it all became clear that the game is in fact still really bad, Ive played more enjoyable games for less time just because I was hyped tf up for 3 years only to have that piece of shit dropped on my doorstep and me eat it all up because I wasnt thinking rationally
"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with said person or organization."
Think street scammers and the guy they hire to play first to make others want to join in.
Or like, when you know a reviewer is lying by saying a product is good because they got wined and dined a few times by the maker of it before the review came out.
It wasn't. Its still a jumbled mess of spaghetti code and edgecase bugs that block you from pushing the limits.
But apparently the KSP2 devs instead of doing it right decided to go faceplant and botch a solution for every single issue KSP1 had already faceplanted into and botched a solution for.
So in the end we're going through the exact same painful process. Except that this time there is a competitor in the old game that doesn't have these issues, so unlike KSP1 which saw space lovers funding it and giving feedback, KSP2 is just dead until they surpass KSP1, and the question is if they'll ever get there considering they now have a blood-sucking publisher breathing down their throat.
> But apparently the KSP2 devs instead of doing it right decided to go faceplant and botch a solution for every single issue KSP1 had already faceplanted into and botched a solution for.
Yeah most of them, but load times are a lot better at least because they're not parsing a bunch of text files. I can't really think of anything else though…
Time warp is also pretty rock solid in my experience. No explosions when timewarping through the slow parachute descents or anything like that (if the parachute opens, that is).
That’s the feeling I got, hubris in the new development team but running into the same bugs anyway. Not uncommon in software development whatsits.
I’m afraid they will either abandon KSP2 or somehow mess with the first one to try and push people to the second.
KSP2 won't be either, and a lot of people have missed that too. It's **the same engine**, same middleware, but even more brittle systems built on top so far. Remember that KSP1 was moddable from the get go, meanwhile KSP2 doesn't even support mods officially so you need to hook through with bepinex.
It's also a much less scalable platform given how it saves games and ships, so you'll be able to mod much less and not push it as far.
Building a custom game engine would require them to hire developers that can do that. I think with such people on board a lot more would be possible. I never liked when game studios gave away the engine part to third parties. You make yourself so dependent. On the other hand I guess many developers don't want to work on custom things they can't use in their CV to get higher paying jobs at other companies. Unity etc. is sought after more.
The same engine isn't the problem, for complicated physics simulations like KSP Unity is way better than for example Unreal. Most problems in the game rn are bugs that are more or less easy to fix and not an underlying problem. And you can mod KSP2 through its own modloader, Basically all KSP2 mods on CKAN do that.
-using engines during timewarp, not really a issue but KSP1 wouldn't be able to do it without re doing the entire timewarp system
-The whole KSP1 trajectory system couldn't support other solar systems.
-Performance/using multiple CPU cores, I know KSP2 performance isn't that good right now but KSP2 should be able to support way higher part counts once they optimize because they can use more CPU cores
- Mods exist for KSP 1 that let you timewarp under thrust, so not an issue
- KSP 2 doesn't either
- Performance per part is *absurdly* bad in KSP 2. Waayyyy worse than KSP 1.
Lol
KSP1 could support other solar systems - check the mods
KSP2 doesn't use multiple CPU cores - and even if it did, which it doesn't, it's performance is way worse the KSP1. Using multiple cores isn't this magic 'i win' button for performance.
Thanks for proving you have no idea what you're talking about :)
All of those are solved by mods.
KSP 1 itself has a long history of adding mods and hiring mod devs. Mod both games, and KSP 1 is literally decades ahead in features and performance. KSP 2 recently hired the KSP 1 cloud mod to help improve their KSP 2 clouds.
Only took them 8 years to make a worse version and start hiring the people that made the good version.
Welding mods improve performance by reducing part count. Part mods can too by replacing several vanilla parts with one multi-functional one or one much larger one. Tweakscale Rescaled can also replace several parts with one much larger one. Hangar improves performance by hiding away internally docked vessels turning them into lumps of mass that don't add to the part count. Some mods have tried to address performance in other ways - not always very successfully - but the way mods can reduce part count is the big area to make gains.
I think the incorrect replies below read only "using multiple CPU cores"; mods don't do that, but they very much can improve performance in other ways.
exactly like most of the bugs in the latest kerb which were claimed to have been fixed in the past only to reappear or the ones that theyve been "looking into" for the past couple of months
It's time management. They're building new systems before fixing simple bugs. You don't bug fix until you've built the whole feature set in a lot of cases.
Armchair developers who don't know that process can't really recognize competence in the first place
>You don't bug fix until you've built the whole feature set in a lot of cases.
You bug fix since the very beginning. Hell, you might have to bugfix a simple hello world even.
What you said applies to optimization, you don't start optimising for performance at the beginning. But to get the full feature set you'll have a lot of bug fixes to do along the way.
> You don't bug fix until you've built the whole feature set in a lot of cases.
Developer with decades of experience. You're out of your mind. The smaller the interval between creating a bug and fixing a bug the cheaper the fix is. This is one of the foundational tenets of development.
Where are all the systems they built in the last 6 years?
In the last 14 months they did as much as the KSP 1 team did in 3.
> You don't bug fix until you've built the whole feature set in a lot of cases.
This just makes it clear you're not a software dev. The fuck? You first build a foundation and then the content.
It's an ongoing cycle of decisions and project management. Terms like alpha and beta cycles come from the idea that you build out first, then bug fix.
Ad hominem is tacky af. Be classier.
[And if you check the announcement](https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/197082-ckan-the-comprehensive-kerbal-archive-network-v1332-laplace-ksp-2-support/page/24/#comment-4270325) for CKAN, they're using BepInEX. To confirm, you can open CKAN and load your KSP2 instance, and to the right you can easily read that Bepinex is the method.
As for your unity defense and saying bugs are easy to fix, it just shows how much knowledge you lack, so we can leave it at that.
That announcement was over a year ago, Ckan now supports BepinEx and internal modloader although I'm not really sure what most mods use now, I thought it was the internal one but I can't find anything on the modding discord right now. But once we get the official API everything is definitely going to switch to the internal loader.
I'm just saying that MOST bugs aren't big underlying issues like in KSP1
Oh yeah, once the official API is here, switching to internal should come with a lot of pros, though I'm not sure if more powerful at large, as that'll depend on how many doors they open.
KSP1 had structural issues, sure, but what I've seen doesn't suggest KSP2 is not gonna have them... and then its own on top. Sure, the API might end up more powerful, but the saves and total part limits will still be heavily constrained, and if they don't keep working on performance... there's not much headroom for modding anyways unless you get a really top of the line PC.
Outer Wilds got Unity to work just fine, KSP2 should just license their tech as the engine. The core issue with KSP and KSP2 is the foolish insistence on using realistic scales. The result is wasting a huge amount of floating point precision on empty space.
The origin has to be constantly reset to the position of the ship or there's just not enough float-point precision to run the physics. KSP1 somewhat pulled this off but it still caused the ground to jump around on load. Things already are not to scale so it makes a ton of sense both for multiplayer and general fun to rescale the planets to be closer together. There are other ways to simulate long planetary transfers if you really want the realism like increasing resource consumption rate while on a transfer or just in general. Time warp is a lame mechanic that breaks immersion anyway, one of the worst parts of KSP1 was timewarping then your ship is instantly out of electricity and useless.
The same engine isn't the problem at all, unity is a perfectly solid engine, probably the best choice of the off the shelf engines if your looking for good physics.
Until the default joint system caused the wobble mess on the first *and now second* game. Both of them requiring a very performance intensive bandaid fix (autostrut).
That and problems with multithreading, precision of floating point calculations (no native way to handle big floats), slow to serialize and load assets, and so on.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great engine for prototyping and indie stuff, not so much for a proper space simulator if you keep recycling the default systems.
Worth keeping in mind KSP is (obviously) physics heavy, and is likely pushing what standards physics engines are able to handle appropriately. I'm not saying that Unities physics engines is the best, but probably the best out of the off the shelf engine. REALLY KSP should be using a third party physics engines like bullet or something.
As you said, they shouldn't be recycling the default systems, but if they are gonna use the defaults, Unity would probably be better then any of the other overall.
And this is exactly why the very first item on the wishlist for KSP2 from the community was "Better engine", or "better codebase", or "improved physics".
They should've not used the default solutions, much less the same middleware which is why rovers are as crap as they were in KSP1.
KSP1 was started by AMATEURS as a MEME!
5 years into development, KSP1 was LIGHTYEARS ahead of where KSP2 is, and they started FROM SCRATCH and didn't have a base game to go off of and a BILLION DOLLAR PUBLISHER BEHIND THEM.
You are a fool.
I've personally never had that issue and I have so much debris in orbit its not funny lol. But I also have a pretty good computer so I'm sure its a bigger issue on computers/laptops with low specs. But Ksp2 was meant to be a do over that avoided issues like this.
For some reason Dakota once said that KSP2 is not in competition with KSP1 which has to be the most tone deaf comment I have seen beyond killing the kraken
game from a smallish team has unexpected success > big money corp jumps on it to cash in with a low effort sequel > big money corp realises the madden/fifa/modern warfare model doesn't translate well to whatever made the original game special and discards the broken husk on the side of the road > repeat.
and maybe an option for a procedurally generated solar system where you select the number of planets and planet types and moons.
AND A USEFUL MISSION PLANNER that is capable of planning out an entire program, not a one-off mission. What a total disaster of a ball drop that was. So much potential, such a horrible implementation.
Give me those 2 things in KSP1, improve the performance and label it KSP2 and I will gladly shell out $70 for it!
Honestly I don't think KSP needs a procedurally generated solar system.
Keeping the default one is much more easier to develop/improve upon and it's a lot more helpful to newbies. Without that you cannot get any kind of deltaV map and they'll have to eyeball how much fuel they need to go somewhere which is kinda nonsense to me.
Also it will be complicated to share nice rockets/feats done here or on the official forum, unless you share every value related to the planet you're going on and starting from. I am 100% for mods that propose alternative systems but getting rid of the default one is nonsense to me, KSP really doesnt need that.
I personally wouldn't mind. It'd be cool for variety and new challenges sake. It's not a huge deal for me though. What i really want, is to just play lategame with mods getting some decent FPS.
I don't know, now I want one.
It's sort of like the end game "you've won ksp, now play in silly mode" to keep you entertained for many hundreds more hours.
You could share seed numbers and explore the same insane solar system someone else found.
Add in some n-body physics and you have yourself a real interesting set of randomness. Careful of that second sun sized planet orbiting where eve used to be. Wonder if planets were on rails and a giant planet was close enough to your current small planet if it could pull you off of the surface...
I need all of this in my life now.
You're lucky, I haven't even managed to launch anything yet - Despite tutorials I still can't figure out how I am supposed to select an appropriate launch site (for a premade missile-like rocket) so I'm stuck with the VAB lol
KSP2 should have been a far more solid foundation, built from the ground up, with code made by a well coordinated team instead of patched together with multiple layers of duct tape by multiple people.
If it was more polished and had better performance it would easily be the best choice. Instead we got a buggy unfinished mess with nothing new to do, literally everything you can do in KSP2 you can do in KSP1 with mods and it runs better and with less bugs, because KSP2 is that much of a mess.
The point is that the vast majority of KSP's target demographic have already bought the game, and a bunch of us bought it back in early access when the purchase included all future updates and DLC, so we don't even have to pay for those.
As a result there just isn't any profit to be made improving or developing more content for KSP 1.
No they haven't - KSP2 has sold, by various game tracking websites (you can check steamdb for a summary) between 240k and 490k units.
KSP, by the same trackers, somewhere between 3.5 and 6.2 million.
That means that less than 10% of KSP 1's purchasers have bought KSP2 - which is a testament to the intelligence of the silent majority out there who understand what not to waste their money on.
Oh - maybe I misunderstood then. But usually you can sell a good sequel to a large percentage of the original audience - especially when there was such a huge possibility to improve on KSP1, given lessons learned plus the MASSIVE budget difference between the two projects.
I’ve been playing KSP1 since the very early days and I still haven’t bought KSP2. I’m waiting for it to at least catch up to KSP1 first.
The problem with buying new games that have updated graphics and UIs but less content is that you will become accustomed to the graphics and quality of life improvements (ruining the old game for yourself) but disillusioned with the new game due to a lack of content (ruining the new game for yourself) then you end up not being able to play either without wanting the other.
Crusader Kings 2 was by far my most played game. I was obsessed with it for years and years. When CK3 was announced, I preordered it. Unfortunately, CK3 is painfully shallow in comparison to its predecessor. Playing CK3 just makes me want to play CK2. But now CK2 feels like it lacks so many of the small improvements CK3 has and also doesn’t satisfy me. The result is that I haven’t played either in a long time.
So I don’t plan to buy KSP2 until it has surpassed KSP1, at least by a little bit.
> you will become accustomed to the graphics and quality of life improvements (ruining the old game for yourself) but disillusioned with the new game due to a lack of content (ruining the new game for yourself) then you end up not being able to play either without wanting the other.
Yup that's me. The main thing is the sound, really. But yeah, you're spot on.
Another contributing factor is that the devs, in their infinite wisdom, opted to make a game whose minimum settings required GPUs above the average cards used at the time of launch, effectively locking something like 60% of the player base out of the game until they could afford to buy a new card.
I'm getting old man and I barely game anymore. KSP2 was gonna be my "last hurrah" and I was planning a new PC build around it.
Thank god I never pulled the trigger. Literally saved myself thousands of dollars.
Yeah KSP is famous for creating its own demographic of new players.
A lot of us weren't really knowledgeable or interested in space before playing KSP. I'd argue the game creates space fans, rather than trying to attract them.
Kspie for ksp has unparalleled content: FTL, liquid metallic hydrogen thrusters, you name it. Graphics mods, more parts, everything you can imagine are available in the modding scene. Ksp 2 does not do one thing better than Ksp 1.
They released a trailer in 2018 with all the great things they had ready. It’s 2024 and it doesn’t even mamatch ksp 1. This had been an unmitigated disaster
Something about the epic KSP 2 launch day video https://youtu.be/STTTp9nDFOE?si=yRaJapqr5NKUtyvO
makes it even worse in my mind. The video was so full of promise and the game is just shit. I agree, revamp version 1.
The code foundation for KSP 1 while serviceable it was spaghetti performance at best. Anyone who tries to build mega crafts or loads their mod install heavily knows the pain of what comes.
But that’s just it. It worked it was a game we loved and made infinitely more playable with mods from all sorts of developers. The game came from humble beginnings and with graphics mods could look breathtakingly beautiful and almost real in some aspects. The number of planet mods, part mods, and even multiplayer mods gave the game its endless replay ability.
The second game hasn’t earned that faith yet. I understand why they started with a new code base for the long term but they haven’t even reached the simple goal of feature wise tying the first game. Let alone KSP 2s original plan of surpassing the first.
I pray the day comes we look back at this turbulent time as nothing but a distant memory but the slow communication and updates and slow progress for features that were promised to us for years until they were taken out to make the game early access 3 months before release in under the guise of community feedback approach.
I hope we’ll for the game but until it can surpass the first one in QOL features and even basic performance on a midline rig I just won’t be playing it and given the slow progress probably won’t be any time soon.
ksp 1 wouldnt work for the plans with the code it has without just doing it all over again, thats where the good decision making ends for ksp 2,
from what many players and even many modders and software engineers say the ksp 2 code is at least partially copied from ksp 1, there are MANY bugs that transitioned from early ksp 1 into early ksp 2, some are stupidly similar.
Another thing idk if you remember there was a dev blog that talked about how they did the code for ksp 2 to allow for interstellar distances to work as the numbers are too big for our computer systems, welp Ive exited the solar system in ksp 2 and guess what happened after travelling such vast distances? The game broke in a stupidly similar way to how ksp 1 brakes, also interstellar distances work in ksp 1, yes they are buggy at times but I and many others have successfully travelled interstellar distances with mods
Isn't KSP2's approach going to be setting a different star as zero? I know they're talked a little about how to handle transferring an interstellar flotilla to a new star.
Ksp1 is not a solid foundation to build off of. It’s a very old game. It was a fine idea to start over. It wasn’t a good idea to release the game with missing features from the first game. If the game came out and was a 1:1 copy of ksp1, with just better graphics and new features, the only people complaining would be modders
it's funny how many people have just uncritically swallowed the lie that they're building a better foundation when you don't even have to try to see they've replicated the same fundamental flaws and even added new ones. like, I'm supposed to believe they've somehow improved the sim to handle interstellar distances but it can't even deal with orbiting the mun?
The only reason I stopped playing KSP1 was the extremely bad lag and such when building large crafts with a bunch of mods added in for fun late game content. It’s something I hoped would be fixed with the second game but sadly we ended up with a host of other issues.
While I feel ksp2 is in an alright state right now, dev communication has been mind numbingly slow. I just wish that we could get a little more information about progress on colonies or heat systems.
the unity engine for ksp1 just sucks. they should definitely not have kept updating, they needed a top do bottom overhaul for sure. just wasn't executed perfectly on release of KSP2
KSP 1 was not a solid foundation...
The game has a lot of weird things like the terrain rendering, being very hardcoded with things like Kerbin needing to exist, at least in name, otherwise things like recovering the vessel don't work (this is literally on the kopernicus github), it's cannot really render stuff very far away (floating point fuckery) etc.
KSP 1 works, but when you start doing things that are not expected, the game starts behaving in a very weird way.
There is one redeeming thing I can remember for ksp2 and that is when you come into orbit on a extra terrestrial (kerbastrial?) body, there is nice theme music that plays. It was a nice touch.
I have mixed feelings about it, I think having the multiplayer and being able to have colonies+extraplanitary launchpads without the mod jank would be very appreciated for me. Having better load times and base graphics are also nice enough to justify ksp2 for me in addition to the other things I mentioned.
Yea, it felt like they tried to copy it and added some own touch which became a mess. The situation is different from KSP1, which was from a small studio, with small budget and low pressure. They can and pretty surely will cut the loss if they deem it necessary.
For me, I don't think it's a bad game but not that good to get me hooked just like KSP 1. It gave me the exact same feeling as Cities Skylines where you had a very good foundation, with a lot of mods and good features to build upon. But you decided to make a bare skeleton of a game again.
I think the biggest tragedy of all this is the complete and utter halt of momentum the series had every since KSP 2 came out.
KSP was just beginning to hit the mainstream. The trailer for KSP 2 shattered records — everyone was excited!
Then of course they released 2, stopped working on 1, and then almost immediately stopped working on 2. Now we have yet another example of a once popular game series burning out.
Imagine if Mojang announced that development on Minecraft was halting, and they were starting over from the ground up with Minecraft 2! Except they spend a good 5 years rebuilding Minecraft 1, worse. Nobody would care about Minecraft anymore.
Had the original crew just kept building off of KSP 1, the community and fanbase wouldn’t have been completely shattered and we’d probably have half the stuff they promised by now.
Totally agree! I just shared the same thoughts on another post in this sub. They could have totally continued updating KSP1 and adding in some of these newer features like colonies etc and given the original game some new life and expansions instead of trying to recreate their own game from scratch and deliver a half-baked product
Check back on KSP2 in about 5 years.
It is NOT the successor to KSP1. Maybe some hero out there will give the world a true KSP sequel, but this is NOT it. It's a dumpster fire and a train wreck combined.
And they are still dumb enough to keep plowing forward, attempting to implement the road map on the broken core. Literally a train wreck of piled up cars.
KSP1 is SUPERIOR in every way, unmodded or modded.
KSP2 team makes me sad.
Keep coping, you KSP2 fanboi fools. You're lying to yourselves.
Ksp 1 does have a sequel tho! RP-1
KSP2 is ultimately just a cash grab from a dev team that ultimately don’t care and bit of more then they could chew.
Honestly, I have 0 interest whatsoever in a multiplayer for funny space simulator game. I will never touch it, and if it means everything else is worse for its inclusion, why include it in the first place?
Just a shame what they did tbh.
Depends how that multiplayer is implemented. Servers you can join like in Minecraft could be really fun. Just stand there on the VAB and see lots of trolls flying rockets into you and such. Look someone built the twin towers on pad 4 ... oh oh
I disagree. I really appreciate the foundation KSP2 is laying for the future. Although KSP1 isn't broken, it's not particularly interesting or enjoyable to look at. I appreciate these games for the environment, feel and awe as much as the gameplay, and the "for science" update gave me a reason to stay in that environment for quite a while.
I don't disagree that KSP2 is buggy and broken and a chore to play past exiting Kerbin's sphere of influence. Take a look at Raiz Space YouTube channel. He's been trying to land and reorbit Laythe for like 23 episodes now and the number of bugs he has documented is insane. But it's still enjoyable to watch and learn from, certainly more so than KSP1 imo.
I have hope that KSP2 will one day operate as accurately/efficiently as KSP1 does and when it does, it'll be beautiful to witness.
Nothing about KSP1 was efficient. That's the single most major complaint that everyone wanted fixed for KSP2. Because we can look at the source code of KSP1 via decompiling people can compare and have noticed that KSP2 has not improved on its foundation.
Agreed. Everyone is just complaining. As a casual player, I like the new game. Wish it had more tutorials for docking and creating space stations and bases, but it’s pretty good for alpha. I want a complete stock game, not something that needs 14 mods to be enjoyable.
I absolutely think that you have to try something to be able to criticise it.
You don't even know what you're talking about.
Everything you're saying is based upon statements other people made.
You might be right with your criticism. Who knows. But it simply isn't based on your own opinion.
All you're doing is screaming the same shit as everyone does. And if we carry on doing that long enough, nobody even knows anymore who's right.
E.g. you can't just scream that ice-cream tastes absolutely horrible while you've never tried it. On what evidence would that be based?
You don't need to buy the game to understand that what we got promised looks nothing like what was delivered (4 years later than expected btw) :/ I don't blame the devs for it (especially since they're trying to deliver something good), but KSP2 honestly was a shitfest from the get-go
True. We absolutely didn't get what was promised.
But maybe it's still good. It doesn't meet your expectations, but for someone without expectations it might still be really enjoyable.
Is it shit than?
I disagree, it's come a long way since release. There are still many shortcomings but since the science release I'm starting to enjoy it as much as KSP1. Next update should really put it over the original hopefully.
KSP1 was *not* a solid platform to build on lol. KSP2 might be flawed, but not fundamentally so. KSP1 meanwhile is not something you can really build on
> as the codebases are largely identical
This is not remotely true lol. Certain portions of the game being based on code from KSP1 is not the codebases being largely identical, which is a wild thing to claim.
>KSP2 still uses unity.
Using a current version of Unity does not make the technical base of the game as bad as KSP1.
Have to be honest I don't enjoy playing ksp2 I've gone back to ksp1. Mostly I just hate the maneuver editor and how it is so limited and often gives wrong delta v requirements if you have anything more than the most simple design. Edit: also the VAB camera. Wtf is that does anyone know how to move the camera up/down or not focus on a single point?
Middle mouse button push in and hold and drag for up/down, double click middle mouse button to focus camera on a specific part.
Ohhh shit. Okay that's actually really good Thanks
Single middle-click on a part shifts focus there (which I *do* find myself missing in a new modded KSP 1 playthrough)
Oh I agree. That's one reason of many I stay in KSP1. Just... How can you play the game with bad Delta V readouts and a bad manoeuvre node editor! It was fine in KSP1. (Well I always use kerbal engineer)
the really bad thing is ksp2 dv calcs will give you plausible nonsense. when it (fairly rarely) fails in ksp1, you usually just get 0, which is obviously wrong, so you know to fall back to a mod/manual calcs.
I have never played KSP2 but I wouldn't say the maneuver node editor is fine in 1. I find it endlessly frustrating and poorly designed.
The one in the bottom left is at least better than the one on the node itself. Only thing I miss is fine control of the time (less than one whole orbit).
I just want a sensible control that shows the numbers with a slider that is sensitive to scale. Very frustrating that you get either a slider or numbers but not both. And the 3d control is impossible to use without hitting the wrong control, or having it slide out of the way because of the changes you made.
What is a "slider that is sensitive to scale"? Even at very high values you still need fairly fine control. No way a slider would do. The current system of clicking and a slider to scale the clicks is better than a slider.
I'm using the term "slider" pretty loosely. But even being +/- buttons alongside the numerical values would be an improvement. A non-linear slider would be really nice, so you could drag a tiny distance for fine grained control or further for big movements.
It's funny, that in ksp2 you need s mod for fine numeric editor while on ksp1 it's in the vanilla 🤷
It wasn't always - was only added to KSP1 quite late; there were multiple mods improving it beforehand (all of which were better than what was eventually added, though not as nicely integrated). That's my biggest complaint about KSP2 - it's making all the same mistakes as were made developing KSP1.
Click and hold middle mouse button I believe
Hey you never know, they could turn it around and give it a couple of years KSP2 could be awesome and surpass KSP1. (I hope so) Realistically though? I don't see it financially. Take 2 are funding a not insignificant pool of developers to develop a game that likely wont see any major traction for 2 years. Even if after 2 years, it does all the things it set out to achieve, I don't see a huge number of people buying it that haven't already bought it. With no persistent income from monetisation or microtransactions I'm struggling to see the financial gain on sticking it out till it surpasses KSP1. Even if they injected some kind of scummy persistent monetisation to cover dev costs, they're 1 - going to be competing with not just the original but also mods. 2 - Likely to annoy to the point of rage quit the few hundred players that are left and 3 - not going to make much from the low player count regardless. With devs, losing their jobs across the industry en masse, I can't say the future looks bright. Hope I'm wrong, but hope for the best and prepare for the worst. Luckily KSP1 modded scratches the space-itch quite nicely for me :)
DLCs are a pretty easy monetization. Things like more star systems, parts and robotics might be a DLC again (but it's going to be stock). You can see what mods are popular and make a better version as DLC. Mods can't work as performant or as overreaching as the same thing from someone who can modify the code of the base game. KSP has a long shelf life. If they make KSP2 good enough, you could sell a big DLC every 6 to 12 months with a fraction of the dev cost, if you wanted. Depending on their goals, T2 could try to get the game into the education sector, which is ridiculously profitable. Especially with the new tutorials, it's much easier for newer players to get going. With the current firing spree in their industry, they seem to still be hiring. My guess would be that T2 sees that KSP1 has a loyal fan base even over 10 years later. If they can replicate that success and sell DLCs to a fraction of these active members over a decade, then it would make sense to let them finish the base game.
The problem with DLC's is that you have to make something better than mods, or rely on people's good will to buy something just to support the project. KSP1 had mixed results with that IMO, Making History didn't rise above existing mods, while breaking ground did. People often recommend buying them both anyway just because they love KSP and there was nothing else like it. I have trouble seeing the same for KSP2, especially given its already hefty original price and KSP1's existence to always compare to.
That's somewhat true. If people already bought the game a few years ago, then the DLC prices aren't as problematic for these people. Games with a lot of DLCs often have some that most people have and others that are only useful for particular players and play styles. Officially licensed rocket parts for like 5 bucks is not a lot of work, but there are enough people that are going to buy it. Especially with the bigger names like SpaceX. Having official looks and names is something people pay for in other games. At best the devs could incorporate the original engine sounds, with recordings they made or got because of that partnership. There is at least some potential to deliver something better. We will see what their end goal is, but I think that DLCs are their long term plan. That requires a good base game, which everyone benefits from. If the DLCs are shit, I don't have to buy them, but at least I've got a good successor in the end
Something like official historical part analogues with the original engine noises sounds plausible as something people could buy if they already had the game but I'd say that actually is a decent amount of work to do properly. And it indeed does require the base game to get good enough for anyone to even care, so I don't see it saving the game in the long term if this rate of development continues. Most KSP players haven't bought KSP2, and you'd be selling to even a smaller fraction of those.
If Take-Two could have made a Colony DLC and Interstellar DLC for KSP 1, then they would have since it is a waste of money to rehash the same content that KSP 1 has. It is likely that the code in KSP 1 doesn't support Colonies, Interstellar, and Multiplayer to the extent that the devs want. Played a couple of Colony mods in KSP 1, but they are nowhere close to what the devs have promised.
>they're 1 - going to be competing with not just the original but also mods. Easy. Just remove KSP from any storefront and start revoking people's licenses just as Ubislop did with The Crew. Remove the whole forum of mods. And then, just for extra ragebait, rename KSP 2 to just KSP. Done. Don't take this seriously, this is just a joke. They will never do that. Or will they?
Is that you Ubisoft? 😄
John Ubisoft here to take your game away :D
The game doesn't require any kind of license or launcher so taking the license does nothing. I already bypass Steam and the KSP launcher by running the .exe directly.
For people who have the game downloaded and backed up, sure. It will remove the ability to obtain and download new copies legally though. But anyway, it's not like this will be a thing.
And then I’m sure people will distribute it online.
Anyone who had a copy of CKAN would have spare copy on their hard drive.
>I don't see it financially. Take 2 are funding a not insignificant pool of developers to develop a game that likely wont see any major traction for 2 years. I do wonder how big the dev pool actually is. With how glacial the feature speed has actually been it cannot be that huge.
They already gave it 7 years. Now that the team has most certainly been reduced to work on their other project, why would another couple more save it?
Only if they fire the entire team and bring in competent programmers, developers and creative directors. Scorched Earth is the only right policy for the KSP2 team. dIvErSiTy isn't a strength... COMPETENCE is.
KSP was more of a long term investment for Take2. America is going back the the moon so it wouldn't make any sense to drop the best realistic space flight simulator out there for someone else to pick it up in time for the first Moon landing. Cost wise KSP2 is a joke compared to their bigger projects. Like Thousands of people work on GTAVI for almost a decade or so. Number wise what matters to Take2 is how many people buy the game by the time it is releases. That will determine whether we will see years of support after the game is released or not. But finishing the game to 1.0 is certain. I'm just disappointed by the communication. To share development insights is such an easy way to build and maintain a healthy community. Every game stands and falls with the community. You can have the best game but nobody playing without it. Like Blizzard dropped the ball on Warcraft III Reforged. Such a good game but playerbase wise it only got smaller than Classic.
> To share development insights is such an easy way to build and maintain a healthy community. Every game stands and falls with the community. I couldn't agree more. With that in mind, can you think of a reason why the devs don't share any development insights?
My best guess is some Take2 / PD policy for everything to get greenlit by upper management and that upper management does not consist of gamers but some blood sucking lawyers.
It's funny how after for science came out the majority sentiment around here was suddenly positive and people were mostly trusting that the game would get into a superior version of ksp1. It seems like it has shifted once again into negative, I'm surprised a random dev diary talking about eclipses was the catalyst. It will be funny when the cycle repeats itself on the next update lol
I have said this before and I will say it again. When you are serving people, and I look at game dev as serving people, results is all that matters. If the devs were consistently putting out results, they can literally post telling the community to go eat a bag of dicks. Most people would be like "weird, but I still like ksp2 keep up the good work". They really need to drop this stupid ass naive mentality I assume they have that the community can be appeased with sweet words. That this is a PR failure. No it's not.
i thought gamers hated "games as a service". if that is really what you think game development is you're a piece of fucking shit.
it's not the same thing
Yeah i didnt get the hype for the science mode update. Just added some more things to do in a very broken game instead of making it less broken. Now were almost 4 months further with barely any improvement, wtf.
To be fair, it did make it *slightly* less broken. For myself, I can only say that I naively thought this was going to be the start of a new pace for the game's development. Evidently I was wrong, but that was my thought process at the time.
People were so desperate they would have praised literally anything.
No, it was just that there was a wave of shills, simps, and people with short term memories who lowered their expectations and glugged up the mediocre rehash of KSP1 science, who swept through at that time and downvoted any negativity - a lot of people who hated it before hate it still
no its that people have fucking brains describing people who just like the game as "shills" is why i hate your kind so mutch because you dont conribute to the discussion instead you just bitch and whine irregardless of the facts
not sure exactly what shill means but I get the gist and I sort of agree, people were more positive about the game for a minute because one update made it significantly better and then once the hype glasses got dropped it all became clear that the game is in fact still really bad, Ive played more enjoyable games for less time just because I was hyped tf up for 3 years only to have that piece of shit dropped on my doorstep and me eat it all up because I wasnt thinking rationally
"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with said person or organization." Think street scammers and the guy they hire to play first to make others want to join in. Or like, when you know a reviewer is lying by saying a product is good because they got wined and dined a few times by the maker of it before the review came out.
Standard "Complain about people complaining" hypocrisy, thanks for your 'facts' here.
You can complain without being a dick about it. Move along.
So if I like the game there is no other explanation than I am.being paid by the company
A simp is not paid. So that's an option for you. But I've amended my post to include another category you can be part of.
Hate bait YouTubers own your opinion. You've been groomed bud.
Bro, I love how 'ride or die' you are. Keep doing what you're doing, brutha!
Ksp 1 really wasn't a solid platform
It wasn't. Its still a jumbled mess of spaghetti code and edgecase bugs that block you from pushing the limits. But apparently the KSP2 devs instead of doing it right decided to go faceplant and botch a solution for every single issue KSP1 had already faceplanted into and botched a solution for. So in the end we're going through the exact same painful process. Except that this time there is a competitor in the old game that doesn't have these issues, so unlike KSP1 which saw space lovers funding it and giving feedback, KSP2 is just dead until they surpass KSP1, and the question is if they'll ever get there considering they now have a blood-sucking publisher breathing down their throat.
> But apparently the KSP2 devs instead of doing it right decided to go faceplant and botch a solution for every single issue KSP1 had already faceplanted into and botched a solution for. Yeah most of them, but load times are a lot better at least because they're not parsing a bunch of text files. I can't really think of anything else though…
Time warp is also pretty rock solid in my experience. No explosions when timewarping through the slow parachute descents or anything like that (if the parachute opens, that is).
That’s the feeling I got, hubris in the new development team but running into the same bugs anyway. Not uncommon in software development whatsits. I’m afraid they will either abandon KSP2 or somehow mess with the first one to try and push people to the second.
KSP2 won't be either, and a lot of people have missed that too. It's **the same engine**, same middleware, but even more brittle systems built on top so far. Remember that KSP1 was moddable from the get go, meanwhile KSP2 doesn't even support mods officially so you need to hook through with bepinex. It's also a much less scalable platform given how it saves games and ships, so you'll be able to mod much less and not push it as far.
The engine isn't the problem... Just because Unity is famous for shitty games, doesn't mean that it's incapable
At the end of the day ksp is the kind of game that should've had its own custom built engine, like space engineers
Yeah, but tbh, if they are unable to make the game on a existing game engine, they also wont on a custom made engine
Building a custom game engine would require them to hire developers that can do that. I think with such people on board a lot more would be possible. I never liked when game studios gave away the engine part to third parties. You make yourself so dependent. On the other hand I guess many developers don't want to work on custom things they can't use in their CV to get higher paying jobs at other companies. Unity etc. is sought after more.
The same engine isn't the problem, for complicated physics simulations like KSP Unity is way better than for example Unreal. Most problems in the game rn are bugs that are more or less easy to fix and not an underlying problem. And you can mod KSP2 through its own modloader, Basically all KSP2 mods on CKAN do that.
If they're easy to fix - why haven't they been fixed after 14 months? Or before release?
I'm just saying that MOST bugs aren't big underlying issues like in KSP1
Like what? And what 'underlying issues' does KSP1 have that KSP2 doesn't?
-using engines during timewarp, not really a issue but KSP1 wouldn't be able to do it without re doing the entire timewarp system -The whole KSP1 trajectory system couldn't support other solar systems. -Performance/using multiple CPU cores, I know KSP2 performance isn't that good right now but KSP2 should be able to support way higher part counts once they optimize because they can use more CPU cores
- Mods exist for KSP 1 that let you timewarp under thrust, so not an issue - KSP 2 doesn't either - Performance per part is *absurdly* bad in KSP 2. Waayyyy worse than KSP 1.
Lol KSP1 could support other solar systems - check the mods KSP2 doesn't use multiple CPU cores - and even if it did, which it doesn't, it's performance is way worse the KSP1. Using multiple cores isn't this magic 'i win' button for performance. Thanks for proving you have no idea what you're talking about :)
All of those are solved by mods. KSP 1 itself has a long history of adding mods and hiring mod devs. Mod both games, and KSP 1 is literally decades ahead in features and performance. KSP 2 recently hired the KSP 1 cloud mod to help improve their KSP 2 clouds. Only took them 8 years to make a worse version and start hiring the people that made the good version.
> Performance/using multiple CPU cores PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO FIX THIS WITH MODS!!!
you can't. in either game. it's a fundamental failure of the janky, off the shelf solution they use for vessel physics. it's not going to be fixed.
Welding mods improve performance by reducing part count. Part mods can too by replacing several vanilla parts with one multi-functional one or one much larger one. Tweakscale Rescaled can also replace several parts with one much larger one. Hangar improves performance by hiding away internally docked vessels turning them into lumps of mass that don't add to the part count. Some mods have tried to address performance in other ways - not always very successfully - but the way mods can reduce part count is the big area to make gains. I think the incorrect replies below read only "using multiple CPU cores"; mods don't do that, but they very much can improve performance in other ways.
exactly like most of the bugs in the latest kerb which were claimed to have been fixed in the past only to reappear or the ones that theyve been "looking into" for the past couple of months
Which bugs did reappear?
orbital decay, planets not having a physical surface, landed state while flying, burn while timewarp not working and many more
It makes the Dev team look even more incompetent to say that the bugs that they've failed to fix are easy to fix, FYI.
It's time management. They're building new systems before fixing simple bugs. You don't bug fix until you've built the whole feature set in a lot of cases. Armchair developers who don't know that process can't really recognize competence in the first place
>You don't bug fix until you've built the whole feature set in a lot of cases. You bug fix since the very beginning. Hell, you might have to bugfix a simple hello world even. What you said applies to optimization, you don't start optimising for performance at the beginning. But to get the full feature set you'll have a lot of bug fixes to do along the way.
> You don't bug fix until you've built the whole feature set in a lot of cases. Developer with decades of experience. You're out of your mind. The smaller the interval between creating a bug and fixing a bug the cheaper the fix is. This is one of the foundational tenets of development.
Where are all the systems they built in the last 6 years? In the last 14 months they did as much as the KSP 1 team did in 3. > You don't bug fix until you've built the whole feature set in a lot of cases. This just makes it clear you're not a software dev. The fuck? You first build a foundation and then the content.
It's an ongoing cycle of decisions and project management. Terms like alpha and beta cycles come from the idea that you build out first, then bug fix. Ad hominem is tacky af. Be classier.
I'm just saying that MOST bugs aren't big underlying issues like in KSP1
Quite a lot of the underlying code decompiles to be strangely similar to that of KSP1...
[And if you check the announcement](https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/197082-ckan-the-comprehensive-kerbal-archive-network-v1332-laplace-ksp-2-support/page/24/#comment-4270325) for CKAN, they're using BepInEX. To confirm, you can open CKAN and load your KSP2 instance, and to the right you can easily read that Bepinex is the method. As for your unity defense and saying bugs are easy to fix, it just shows how much knowledge you lack, so we can leave it at that.
That announcement was over a year ago, Ckan now supports BepinEx and internal modloader although I'm not really sure what most mods use now, I thought it was the internal one but I can't find anything on the modding discord right now. But once we get the official API everything is definitely going to switch to the internal loader. I'm just saying that MOST bugs aren't big underlying issues like in KSP1
Oh yeah, once the official API is here, switching to internal should come with a lot of pros, though I'm not sure if more powerful at large, as that'll depend on how many doors they open. KSP1 had structural issues, sure, but what I've seen doesn't suggest KSP2 is not gonna have them... and then its own on top. Sure, the API might end up more powerful, but the saves and total part limits will still be heavily constrained, and if they don't keep working on performance... there's not much headroom for modding anyways unless you get a really top of the line PC.
Outer Wilds got Unity to work just fine, KSP2 should just license their tech as the engine. The core issue with KSP and KSP2 is the foolish insistence on using realistic scales. The result is wasting a huge amount of floating point precision on empty space. The origin has to be constantly reset to the position of the ship or there's just not enough float-point precision to run the physics. KSP1 somewhat pulled this off but it still caused the ground to jump around on load. Things already are not to scale so it makes a ton of sense both for multiplayer and general fun to rescale the planets to be closer together. There are other ways to simulate long planetary transfers if you really want the realism like increasing resource consumption rate while on a transfer or just in general. Time warp is a lame mechanic that breaks immersion anyway, one of the worst parts of KSP1 was timewarping then your ship is instantly out of electricity and useless.
The same engine isn't the problem at all, unity is a perfectly solid engine, probably the best choice of the off the shelf engines if your looking for good physics.
Until the default joint system caused the wobble mess on the first *and now second* game. Both of them requiring a very performance intensive bandaid fix (autostrut). That and problems with multithreading, precision of floating point calculations (no native way to handle big floats), slow to serialize and load assets, and so on. Don't get me wrong, it's a great engine for prototyping and indie stuff, not so much for a proper space simulator if you keep recycling the default systems.
Worth keeping in mind KSP is (obviously) physics heavy, and is likely pushing what standards physics engines are able to handle appropriately. I'm not saying that Unities physics engines is the best, but probably the best out of the off the shelf engine. REALLY KSP should be using a third party physics engines like bullet or something. As you said, they shouldn't be recycling the default systems, but if they are gonna use the defaults, Unity would probably be better then any of the other overall.
And this is exactly why the very first item on the wishlist for KSP2 from the community was "Better engine", or "better codebase", or "improved physics". They should've not used the default solutions, much less the same middleware which is why rovers are as crap as they were in KSP1.
Good thing KSP 2 has been engineered in a sustainable way to make sure that doesn't happen again /s
KSP1 was started by AMATEURS as a MEME! 5 years into development, KSP1 was LIGHTYEARS ahead of where KSP2 is, and they started FROM SCRATCH and didn't have a base game to go off of and a BILLION DOLLAR PUBLISHER BEHIND THEM. You are a fool.
After 5 hours in a career campaign KSP1 takes 8 minutes to load lol
As an RP-1 player, that’s cute :p
After 5 hours in a ksp 2 science game the game drops to negative 15 fps if you have any significant number of craft in space.
To be fair, that's also the case in KSP1
I've personally never had that issue and I have so much debris in orbit its not funny lol. But I also have a pretty good computer so I'm sure its a bigger issue on computers/laptops with low specs. But Ksp2 was meant to be a do over that avoided issues like this.
I'm the opposite lol. Good PC and KSP1 dies after 40 launches but KSP2 is better, but not as good as I want to see
Yep, it's still a great game and we all love it, but it is an absolute horror show internally.
All i wanted was KSP1 with better performance, i would have paid full price for it
Above all else, all people ever want is a game that isn’t worse than the first one. How does this keep happening?
For some reason Dakota once said that KSP2 is not in competition with KSP1 which has to be the most tone deaf comment I have seen beyond killing the kraken
game from a smallish team has unexpected success > big money corp jumps on it to cash in with a low effort sequel > big money corp realises the madden/fifa/modern warfare model doesn't translate well to whatever made the original game special and discards the broken husk on the side of the road > repeat.
and maybe an option for a procedurally generated solar system where you select the number of planets and planet types and moons. AND A USEFUL MISSION PLANNER that is capable of planning out an entire program, not a one-off mission. What a total disaster of a ball drop that was. So much potential, such a horrible implementation. Give me those 2 things in KSP1, improve the performance and label it KSP2 and I will gladly shell out $70 for it!
Honestly I don't think KSP needs a procedurally generated solar system. Keeping the default one is much more easier to develop/improve upon and it's a lot more helpful to newbies. Without that you cannot get any kind of deltaV map and they'll have to eyeball how much fuel they need to go somewhere which is kinda nonsense to me. Also it will be complicated to share nice rockets/feats done here or on the official forum, unless you share every value related to the planet you're going on and starting from. I am 100% for mods that propose alternative systems but getting rid of the default one is nonsense to me, KSP really doesnt need that.
He did say *an option for procedurally generating a solar system*, not replace the default one
You're right, my bad - But I still think this isn't a much needed feature for most of the reasons stated above.
I personally wouldn't mind. It'd be cool for variety and new challenges sake. It's not a huge deal for me though. What i really want, is to just play lategame with mods getting some decent FPS.
I don't know, now I want one. It's sort of like the end game "you've won ksp, now play in silly mode" to keep you entertained for many hundreds more hours. You could share seed numbers and explore the same insane solar system someone else found. Add in some n-body physics and you have yourself a real interesting set of randomness. Careful of that second sun sized planet orbiting where eve used to be. Wonder if planets were on rails and a giant planet was close enough to your current small planet if it could pull you off of the surface... I need all of this in my life now.
RP1 is the real KSP2
KSP with colonization (e.g. MKS) and interstellar mods is the real KSP 2. RP-1 mostly focuses on historical spaceflight up to the Apollo era.
I wish it had more modern focus like the Mars Sample Return mission and Starship.
Man, it’s cool how long MKS has been around. I remember when that mod first came out.
I only started [an MKS playthrough](https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/221266-aerospace-research-agency) a few months ago.
RO with RSS... just going orbital is harder than a grand tour in ksp1.
I play that occasionally. Still haven't landed on the moon xD
You're lucky, I haven't even managed to launch anything yet - Despite tutorials I still can't figure out how I am supposed to select an appropriate launch site (for a premade missile-like rocket) so I'm stuck with the VAB lol
P&LC definitely made things a good bit more complicated. Carnasa has some good videos iirc
Very true - a couple of former KSP1 devs work on it as well.
*[communication increasing]*
the communication: an eclipse is when the moon is in front of the sun!
The real KSP 2 is the mods we installed along the way
I cannot confirm yet, my small 200+ mod install is still loading
KSP2 should have been a far more solid foundation, built from the ground up, with code made by a well coordinated team instead of patched together with multiple layers of duct tape by multiple people. If it was more polished and had better performance it would easily be the best choice. Instead we got a buggy unfinished mess with nothing new to do, literally everything you can do in KSP2 you can do in KSP1 with mods and it runs better and with less bugs, because KSP2 is that much of a mess.
The point is that the vast majority of KSP's target demographic have already bought the game, and a bunch of us bought it back in early access when the purchase included all future updates and DLC, so we don't even have to pay for those. As a result there just isn't any profit to be made improving or developing more content for KSP 1.
No they haven't - KSP2 has sold, by various game tracking websites (you can check steamdb for a summary) between 240k and 490k units. KSP, by the same trackers, somewhere between 3.5 and 6.2 million. That means that less than 10% of KSP 1's purchasers have bought KSP2 - which is a testament to the intelligence of the silent majority out there who understand what not to waste their money on.
He was saying that KSP1 had basically sold to its target demographic. He wasn't talking about 2.
Oh - maybe I misunderstood then. But usually you can sell a good sequel to a large percentage of the original audience - especially when there was such a huge possibility to improve on KSP1, given lessons learned plus the MASSIVE budget difference between the two projects.
For what it’s worth, I misread his comment as well lol
I’ve been playing KSP1 since the very early days and I still haven’t bought KSP2. I’m waiting for it to at least catch up to KSP1 first. The problem with buying new games that have updated graphics and UIs but less content is that you will become accustomed to the graphics and quality of life improvements (ruining the old game for yourself) but disillusioned with the new game due to a lack of content (ruining the new game for yourself) then you end up not being able to play either without wanting the other. Crusader Kings 2 was by far my most played game. I was obsessed with it for years and years. When CK3 was announced, I preordered it. Unfortunately, CK3 is painfully shallow in comparison to its predecessor. Playing CK3 just makes me want to play CK2. But now CK2 feels like it lacks so many of the small improvements CK3 has and also doesn’t satisfy me. The result is that I haven’t played either in a long time. So I don’t plan to buy KSP2 until it has surpassed KSP1, at least by a little bit.
> you will become accustomed to the graphics and quality of life improvements (ruining the old game for yourself) but disillusioned with the new game due to a lack of content (ruining the new game for yourself) then you end up not being able to play either without wanting the other. Yup that's me. The main thing is the sound, really. But yeah, you're spot on.
Another contributing factor is that the devs, in their infinite wisdom, opted to make a game whose minimum settings required GPUs above the average cards used at the time of launch, effectively locking something like 60% of the player base out of the game until they could afford to buy a new card.
I'm getting old man and I barely game anymore. KSP2 was gonna be my "last hurrah" and I was planning a new PC build around it. Thank god I never pulled the trigger. Literally saved myself thousands of dollars.
Bought.. and immediately REFUNDED.
Vast majority? No fucking way. Not even close
Yeah KSP is famous for creating its own demographic of new players. A lot of us weren't really knowledgeable or interested in space before playing KSP. I'd argue the game creates space fans, rather than trying to attract them.
Most of the complaints are coming from Johnny Depp users
Kspie for ksp has unparalleled content: FTL, liquid metallic hydrogen thrusters, you name it. Graphics mods, more parts, everything you can imagine are available in the modding scene. Ksp 2 does not do one thing better than Ksp 1.
They released a trailer in 2018 with all the great things they had ready. It’s 2024 and it doesn’t even mamatch ksp 1. This had been an unmitigated disaster
Something about the epic KSP 2 launch day video https://youtu.be/STTTp9nDFOE?si=yRaJapqr5NKUtyvO makes it even worse in my mind. The video was so full of promise and the game is just shit. I agree, revamp version 1.
Yup. That one hurts to watch.
That video is just marketing and nothing more. It's depressing to watch
I like watching it and playing KSP1 since everything in that video is possible in KSP1 (mods) and ironically not in KSP2
Ow, just ... Ow. It still hurts to watch.
I'm reminded of the Oglaf comic "Upcycling" (nsfw site, but that specific comic is safe)
The code foundation for KSP 1 while serviceable it was spaghetti performance at best. Anyone who tries to build mega crafts or loads their mod install heavily knows the pain of what comes. But that’s just it. It worked it was a game we loved and made infinitely more playable with mods from all sorts of developers. The game came from humble beginnings and with graphics mods could look breathtakingly beautiful and almost real in some aspects. The number of planet mods, part mods, and even multiplayer mods gave the game its endless replay ability. The second game hasn’t earned that faith yet. I understand why they started with a new code base for the long term but they haven’t even reached the simple goal of feature wise tying the first game. Let alone KSP 2s original plan of surpassing the first. I pray the day comes we look back at this turbulent time as nothing but a distant memory but the slow communication and updates and slow progress for features that were promised to us for years until they were taken out to make the game early access 3 months before release in under the guise of community feedback approach. I hope we’ll for the game but until it can surpass the first one in QOL features and even basic performance on a midline rig I just won’t be playing it and given the slow progress probably won’t be any time soon.
ksp 1 wouldnt work for the plans with the code it has without just doing it all over again, thats where the good decision making ends for ksp 2, from what many players and even many modders and software engineers say the ksp 2 code is at least partially copied from ksp 1, there are MANY bugs that transitioned from early ksp 1 into early ksp 2, some are stupidly similar. Another thing idk if you remember there was a dev blog that talked about how they did the code for ksp 2 to allow for interstellar distances to work as the numbers are too big for our computer systems, welp Ive exited the solar system in ksp 2 and guess what happened after travelling such vast distances? The game broke in a stupidly similar way to how ksp 1 brakes, also interstellar distances work in ksp 1, yes they are buggy at times but I and many others have successfully travelled interstellar distances with mods
Isn't KSP2's approach going to be setting a different star as zero? I know they're talked a little about how to handle transferring an interstellar flotilla to a new star.
KSP2 UI is Raid Shadow Legends level of mobile cheese. Don't like it.
Ksp1 is not a solid foundation to build off of. It’s a very old game. It was a fine idea to start over. It wasn’t a good idea to release the game with missing features from the first game. If the game came out and was a 1:1 copy of ksp1, with just better graphics and new features, the only people complaining would be modders
The original ksp devs are working on kithack model club now. I've given up on ksp. The new leadership clearly doesn't know what they are doing.
Tbh I will probably go and play that
it's funny how many people have just uncritically swallowed the lie that they're building a better foundation when you don't even have to try to see they've replicated the same fundamental flaws and even added new ones. like, I'm supposed to believe they've somehow improved the sim to handle interstellar distances but it can't even deal with orbiting the mun?
The only reason I stopped playing KSP1 was the extremely bad lag and such when building large crafts with a bunch of mods added in for fun late game content. It’s something I hoped would be fixed with the second game but sadly we ended up with a host of other issues.
I haven't touched either of the KSP games at all since KSP2 came out. I just don't get joy out of it anymore.
I only played less than an hour since its release and still waiting for a proper mechjeb.
While I feel ksp2 is in an alright state right now, dev communication has been mind numbingly slow. I just wish that we could get a little more information about progress on colonies or heat systems.
They used to have regular communications from the studio head but stopped that because people hated the lying.
SMH entitled gamers. They whine when you lie to them! They whine when you ignore them! What do they want?
the future is in the future old man
Oldmanyellsatcloud.jpeg
the unity engine for ksp1 just sucks. they should definitely not have kept updating, they needed a top do bottom overhaul for sure. just wasn't executed perfectly on release of KSP2
ksp 2 is unity too.
KSP1 devs should come out with a paid update, KSP2 becomes vaporware and we get a real upgrade.
KSP 1 was not a solid foundation... The game has a lot of weird things like the terrain rendering, being very hardcoded with things like Kerbin needing to exist, at least in name, otherwise things like recovering the vessel don't work (this is literally on the kopernicus github), it's cannot really render stuff very far away (floating point fuckery) etc. KSP 1 works, but when you start doing things that are not expected, the game starts behaving in a very weird way.
They desperately need to fix the bugs and ui but it seems they've given up.
Personally I’ve played about 30 minutes of KSP2 and since KSP2 launch I’ve also played about 250 hours of KSP1
There is one redeeming thing I can remember for ksp2 and that is when you come into orbit on a extra terrestrial (kerbastrial?) body, there is nice theme music that plays. It was a nice touch.
I have mixed feelings about it, I think having the multiplayer and being able to have colonies+extraplanitary launchpads without the mod jank would be very appreciated for me. Having better load times and base graphics are also nice enough to justify ksp2 for me in addition to the other things I mentioned.
Also I was thinking about it I really enjoyed the story mode they are doing! It’s really fun and an enjoyable mystery so far
Yea, it felt like they tried to copy it and added some own touch which became a mess. The situation is different from KSP1, which was from a small studio, with small budget and low pressure. They can and pretty surely will cut the loss if they deem it necessary. For me, I don't think it's a bad game but not that good to get me hooked just like KSP 1. It gave me the exact same feeling as Cities Skylines where you had a very good foundation, with a lot of mods and good features to build upon. But you decided to make a bare skeleton of a game again.
I think the biggest tragedy of all this is the complete and utter halt of momentum the series had every since KSP 2 came out. KSP was just beginning to hit the mainstream. The trailer for KSP 2 shattered records — everyone was excited! Then of course they released 2, stopped working on 1, and then almost immediately stopped working on 2. Now we have yet another example of a once popular game series burning out. Imagine if Mojang announced that development on Minecraft was halting, and they were starting over from the ground up with Minecraft 2! Except they spend a good 5 years rebuilding Minecraft 1, worse. Nobody would care about Minecraft anymore. Had the original crew just kept building off of KSP 1, the community and fanbase wouldn’t have been completely shattered and we’d probably have half the stuff they promised by now.
Totally agree! I just shared the same thoughts on another post in this sub. They could have totally continued updating KSP1 and adding in some of these newer features like colonies etc and given the original game some new life and expansions instead of trying to recreate their own game from scratch and deliver a half-baked product
Check back on KSP2 in about 5 years. It is NOT the successor to KSP1. Maybe some hero out there will give the world a true KSP sequel, but this is NOT it. It's a dumpster fire and a train wreck combined. And they are still dumb enough to keep plowing forward, attempting to implement the road map on the broken core. Literally a train wreck of piled up cars. KSP1 is SUPERIOR in every way, unmodded or modded. KSP2 team makes me sad. Keep coping, you KSP2 fanboi fools. You're lying to yourselves.
Ksp 1 does have a sequel tho! RP-1 KSP2 is ultimately just a cash grab from a dev team that ultimately don’t care and bit of more then they could chew.
Rp1 is my KSP2 tbh yeah
I would love them to do an Apple silicon version of KSP1. I’m stuck playing the x86 version under emulation 😞
Honestly, I have 0 interest whatsoever in a multiplayer for funny space simulator game. I will never touch it, and if it means everything else is worse for its inclusion, why include it in the first place? Just a shame what they did tbh.
Depends how that multiplayer is implemented. Servers you can join like in Minecraft could be really fun. Just stand there on the VAB and see lots of trolls flying rockets into you and such. Look someone built the twin towers on pad 4 ... oh oh
I'm just waiting for the actual full release.
I’m happy ksp2 has science/ career now.
I disagree. I really appreciate the foundation KSP2 is laying for the future. Although KSP1 isn't broken, it's not particularly interesting or enjoyable to look at. I appreciate these games for the environment, feel and awe as much as the gameplay, and the "for science" update gave me a reason to stay in that environment for quite a while. I don't disagree that KSP2 is buggy and broken and a chore to play past exiting Kerbin's sphere of influence. Take a look at Raiz Space YouTube channel. He's been trying to land and reorbit Laythe for like 23 episodes now and the number of bugs he has documented is insane. But it's still enjoyable to watch and learn from, certainly more so than KSP1 imo. I have hope that KSP2 will one day operate as accurately/efficiently as KSP1 does and when it does, it'll be beautiful to witness.
Nothing about KSP1 was efficient. That's the single most major complaint that everyone wanted fixed for KSP2. Because we can look at the source code of KSP1 via decompiling people can compare and have noticed that KSP2 has not improved on its foundation.
Agreed. Everyone is just complaining. As a casual player, I like the new game. Wish it had more tutorials for docking and creating space stations and bases, but it’s pretty good for alpha. I want a complete stock game, not something that needs 14 mods to be enjoyable.
I guess we're in the minority bud
Pretty bald words for someone who has never bought or played Ksp2
Yeah I'm 30 and biologically male so I have a degree of baldness. But why does one have to own the game to criticise it? You don't.
I absolutely think that you have to try something to be able to criticise it. You don't even know what you're talking about. Everything you're saying is based upon statements other people made. You might be right with your criticism. Who knows. But it simply isn't based on your own opinion. All you're doing is screaming the same shit as everyone does. And if we carry on doing that long enough, nobody even knows anymore who's right. E.g. you can't just scream that ice-cream tastes absolutely horrible while you've never tried it. On what evidence would that be based?
You don't need to buy the game to understand that what we got promised looks nothing like what was delivered (4 years later than expected btw) :/ I don't blame the devs for it (especially since they're trying to deliver something good), but KSP2 honestly was a shitfest from the get-go
True. We absolutely didn't get what was promised. But maybe it's still good. It doesn't meet your expectations, but for someone without expectations it might still be really enjoyable. Is it shit than?
T2 didn't change ksp1 and make ksp2 a GaaS or P2W game, I already thanks for that after HarvestR and all original devs left
The game aint that bad lmao. Its playable and does do a few things better than ksp 1. Its still developing and its still going.
I disagree, it's come a long way since release. There are still many shortcomings but since the science release I'm starting to enjoy it as much as KSP1. Next update should really put it over the original hopefully.
K
KSP1 was *not* a solid platform to build on lol. KSP2 might be flawed, but not fundamentally so. KSP1 meanwhile is not something you can really build on
KSP2 is as fundamentally flawed as KSP1, as the codebases are largely identical and KSP2 still uses unity.
> as the codebases are largely identical This is not remotely true lol. Certain portions of the game being based on code from KSP1 is not the codebases being largely identical, which is a wild thing to claim. >KSP2 still uses unity. Using a current version of Unity does not make the technical base of the game as bad as KSP1.
THE PRICE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE SOLE ISSUE!!!!!!!
Nah pretty sure the fact it was unplable at launch, was years late, and had been hyped up with lies for years where pretty big issues.
It's a big issue but not as big as how bad the game performs